#Hamlet meta

[hamletthedane]

Hamlet’s Age

Not to bring up an age-old debate that doesn’t even matter, but I have been thinking recently how interesting Hamlet’s age is both in-text and as meta-text.

To summarize a whole lot of discussion, we basically only have the following clues as to Hamlet’s age:

Hamlet and Horatio are both college students at Wittenberg. In Early Modern/Late Renaissance Europe, noble boys typically began their university education at 14 and usually completed at their Bachelor’s degree by 18 or 19. However, they may have been studying for their Master’s degrees, which was typically awarded by age 25 at the latest. For reference, contemporary Kit Marlowe was a pretty late bloomer who received a bachelor’s degree at 20 and a master’s degree at 23.

Hamlet is AGGRESSIVELY described as a “youth” by many different characters - I believe more than any other male shakespeare character (other than 16yo Romeo). While usage could vary, Shakespeare tended to use “youth” to mean a man in his late teens/very early 20s (actually, he mostly uses it to describe beardless ‘men’ who are actually crossdressing women - likely literally played by young men in their late teens)

King Hamlet is old enough to be grey-haired, but Queen Gertrude is young enough to have additional children (or so Hamlet strongly implies)

Hamlet talks about plucking out the hairs of his beard, so he is old enough to at least theoretically have a beard

In the folio version, the gravedigger says he became a gravedigger the day of Hamlet’s birth, and that he’s be “sixteene here, man and boy, thirty years.” However, it’s unclear if “sixteene” means “sixteen” or “sexton” (ie has he worked here for 16 years but is 30 years old, or has he been sexton there for thirty years?)

Hamlet knew Yorick as a young child, and the gravedigger says Yorick was buried 23 years ago. However, the first quarto version version of Hamlet says “dozen years” instead of “three and twenty.” This suggests the line changed over time. (Or that the bad quarto sucks - I really need to make that post about it, huh…)

Yorick is a skull, and according to the gravedigger’s expertise, he has thus been dead for at least 7-8 years - implying Hamlet is at least ~15yo if he remembers Yorick from his childhood

One important thing sometimes overlooked - Claudius takes the throne at King Hamlet’s death, not Prince Hamlet. That is mostly a commentary on English and French monarchist politics at the time, but it is strange within the internal text. A thirty year old Hamlet presumably would have become the new monarch, not the married-in uncle (unless Gertrude is the vehicle through which the crown passes a la Mary I/Phillip II - certainly food for thought)

Honestly, Hamlet is SO aggressively described as being very young that I’m fairly confident the in-text intention is to have him be around 18-23yo. Placing his age at 30yo simply does not make much sense in the context of his descriptors, his narrative role, and his status as a university student.

However, it doesn’t really matter what the “right” answer is, because the confusion itself is what makes the gravedigger scene so interesting and metatextual. We can basically assume one of the following, given the folio text:

Hamlet really is meant to be 30yo, and that was supposed to surprise or imply something to the contemporary audience that is now lost to us

Older actors were playing Hamlet by the time the folio was written down, and the gravedigger’s description was an in-text justification of the seeming disconnect between age of actor and description of “youth”

Older actors were playing Hamlet by the time the folio was set down, and the gravedigger’s description was an in-text JOKE making fun of the fact that a 30-something year old is playing a high-school aged boy. This makes sense, as the gravedigger is a clown and Hamlet is a play that constantly pokes fun at its own tropes and breaks the fourth wall for its audience

The gravedigger cannot count or remember how old he is, and that’s the joke (this is the most common modern interpretation whenever the line isn’t otherwise played straight). If the clown was, for example, particularly old, those lines would be very funny

Any way you look at it, I believe something is echoing there. It seems like this is one of the many moments in Hamlet where you catch a glimpse of some contemporary in-joke about theater and theater culture* that we can only try to parse out from limited context 430 years later. And honestly, that’s so interesting and cool.

*(My other favorite example of this is when Hamlet asks Polonius about what it was like to play Julius Caesar in an exchange that pokes fun of Polonius’ actor a little. This is clearly an inside-joke directed at Globe regulars - the actor who played Polonius must have also played Julius Caesar in Shakespeare’s play, and been very well reviewed. Hamlet’s joke about Brutus also implies the actor who played Brutus is one of the main cast in Hamlet - possibly even the prince himself, depending on how the line is read).

[cto10121]

Wish there was this much energy for defending R&J

[cleverclove]

Horatio is a German name so it’s p possible that Horatio was actually written to be German! After all, he DOES go to Wittenberg and doesn’t seem to be all that familiar with Danish customs. However, the two countries border one another, so when he mentions that “he saw [Hamlet’s father] once,” it doesn’t sound too far off! Hamlet Sr. probably came around when Horatio was a boy in Germany for a meeting with German officials or something.

[deramin2]

This is such an incredible observation.

Thinking about this dynamic with regards to Orym in Critical Role:

He's been looking for some path of action to deal with Derrig and Will's deaths. For 6 years everything trailed off into dead ends. He couldn't stay there and just be idyll so he left to travel. Until there was a lead and Keyleth set him on a path. Which is now a collision course for revenge.

He's telling himself this is about stopping dangerous people from creating a catastrophe. Stopping a power hungry monster of a man from wresting control on a planetary system level. That's what he's bent towards right now.

He could die and return to Will and Derrig where's he might know peace, but I think it's implied their souls are with the Wildmother so if she's destroyed who knows what happens to them.

He could fail but live, again maybe losing his family forever, and forever living under the shadow of that failure. I'm not sure he'd survive that long feeling like he failed not only hits family but the world when it needed him most. (Liam would be plunging daggers into the audience with that performance. We'd all be taking psychic damage.)

But success might also be at a cost. The bad guys are overthrown. The worst of the disaster is averted. His family's killers answer for their crimes. And then what? Then eternity begins. There's nothing at all he can do to restore what he lost. He's stopped it getting more bad but he can't make it less bad. He can't take away the pain or the loss. He has no task to do, no goal to focus in on. He can't keep their memory close by being focused on this goal for them. All he can do is live and move on. Or regress into being unable to let go and locked in place.

Liam loves a good tragedy, and he's laid out so many paths for it. Even if the group wins, Orym could still lose and be consumed by grief. That's probably the default state of his friends can't intervene. Which gives the story stakes. His friends have to win him over into moving on and finding purpose in life separate from his lost loved ones. They're on a solid path towards it, but it could be on the razor's edge until the end like Caleb or Vax was.

Scanlan had to choose the world over Vax and it sorted solidified into a tragedy. Caleb reconciled with Essek and they destroyed the dangerous experimental research into time travel they both fantasized about but knew could destroy everything. They overcame wizard hubris when it counted. They were set on a path towards a happy ending. (Although that's up in the air right now. We'll see what the next one-shot holds.)

Whether Orym's story is about healing from grief or being consumed by it won't be settled until he's dead or the final curtain closes on the story. It will lay in whether don't all he can is enough. And if he's brave enough to let go and do no more.

Absolutely insane lines to just drop in the middle of an academic text btw. Feeling so normal about this.

[ A Critical History of English Literature, Vol. 1, Prof. David Daiches, first published in 1960 ]

[mx-myth]

Idea for a hamlet production:

The opening night, the program says The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark and it's performed accurately, word for word. The play, however, closes exactly after Horatio tells Fortinbras that he will tell what has happened. The lights hone in on him, cradling a dead Hamlet and wearing bloody clothes, before the play ends there.

The second night, the program says The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, as Told By Horatio. The play begins with a small spotlight over Horatio in the same bloody clothes, cradling a dead Hamlet. He says, "Let me tell you how this all began." Everything much everything is the same as opening night except for a few wording changes.

But after that, it goes off the rails.

The subsequent programs say The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, as Remembered by Horatio (One/Two/Three/etcetera). Each night more changes are made. Early on Polonius shows up with an absolutely ridiculous mustache. Claudius' hair colour changes at some point midway through. Towards the end Ophelia just starts naming random flowers. Laertes, when he's angry/sad/feeling a lot, just straight up starts lapsing into French.

Each night the spotlight on Horatio in the opening grows a little bigger until the audience starts seeing background nobles, then soldiers, and then a figure wearing a crown sitting on a throne who isn't facing the audience. Each night the Ghost looks less like King Hamlet and starts looking more like Horatio's Hamlet. Each night, whenever Horatio is on-scene, Hamlet stops speaking in Shakespearean and starts speaking plainly, because Horatio always understood what he meant.

On the closing night, The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, as Remembered by Horatio (Finale), it's all gone wrong. People are speaking lines they're suppose to say later or earlier in the play, or they're speaking someone else's lines. The opening scene is fully lit, and the audience can finally see that Horatio is talking to Fortinbras. The Ghost is now fully Hamlet. Horatio spends the entire play wearing the bloody clothes he's worn when Hamlet's died. Every time Hamlet isn't looking at him Horatio is looking at him, heartbroken, grieving, sad. Hamlet is the only one who's still saying accurate lines, except for when Horatio is on-scene and he's speaking modern English.

At the end, the play continues after Hamlet has died. Fortinbras commands that Hamlet be given a grand funeral, and Hamlet's body is taken away, with everyone following it out like a funeral procession. Horatio is left as the last one on the stage, staring at his bloody hands.

It is very, very obvious, the closing night, that Horatio has gone mad.

[santacoppelia]

Putting the Meta in "Metatron"

(couldn't resist the pun, sorry)

Ok, this has been tickling my brain for a while. I've been thinking about how The Metatron designed his role and discourse specifically to manipulate Aziraphale into the end result we saw in the last minutes of S2. I become obsessed with it because… well, I'm a bit obsessive, but also because there were many really smart writing decisions that I loved (even when I despise The Metatron exactly for the same reasons. Hate the character, love the writer). If you haven't watched Good Omens Season 2, this is the moment to stop reading. Come back later!

We already know that in Book Omens, the role of Gabriel in the ending was occupied by The Metatron. Of course, the series introduced us to Gabriel and we won a lot by that, but I feel that the origins of The Metatron should be considered for any of this. He is not a "sweet old man": he was the one in charge of seeing over the operation of Armageddon; not just a stickler of rules, but the main promoter for it.

However, when he appears in the series finale, we first are primed to almost pass him by. He is in the line for buying coffee, using clothes that are:

obviously not tailored (almost ill fitted)

in dark tones

looking worn and wrinkled

This seems so important to me! All the angels we have seen are so proud of their aspect, wear clear (white or off white) clothes, pressed, impeccable (even Muriel), even when they visit the Earth (which we have already seen on S1 with all the visits to the bookshop). The Metatron chose a worn, comfortable attire, instead. This is a humanized look, something that fools all the angels but which would warm up someone very specific, can you guess?

After making quite a complicated coffee order (with sort of an affable and nervous energy), he makes a question that Crowley had already primed for us when asking Nina about the name of the coffee: having a "predictable" alternative and an unpredictable one.

This creates an interesting parallel with the next scene: Michael is discussing the possibility of erasing Aziraphale from The Book of Life (a punishment even worse than Holy Water on demons, because not having existed at all, EVER is definitely worse than having existed and ceased to exist at some point) when The Metatron arrives, interrupts the moment and signals having brought coffee. Yup, an amicable gesture, but also a "not death" offering that he shows clearly to everyone (even when Michael or Uriel do not understand or care for it. It wasn't meant for them). He even dismisses what Michael was saying as "utter balderdash" and a "complete piffle", which are the kind of outdated terms we have heard Aziraphale use commonly. So, The Metatron has put up this show for a specific audience of one.

The next moment on the script has Metatron asking Crowley for the clarification of his identity. Up to this moment, every angel has been ignoring the sprawled demon in the corner while discussing how to punish Aziraphale… But The Metatron defers to the most unlikely person in the room, and the only one who will push any buttons on Aziraphale: Crowley. After that, Aziraphale can recognize him, and Metatron dismisses the "bad angels" (using Aziraphale's S1 epithet) with another "catchy old phrase", "spit spot", while keeping Muriel at the back and implying that there is a possibility to "check after" if those "bad angels" have done anything wrong.

Up to this moment, he has played it perfectly. The only moment when he loses it is when he calls Muriel "the dim one", which she ignores… probably because that's the usual way they get talked to in Heaven. I'm not sure if Aziraphale or Crowley cared for that small interaction, but it is there for us (the audience) to notice it: the sympathy the character might elicit is built and sought, but he is not that nice.

After that, comes "the chinwag" and the offer of the coffee: the unnecessarily complicated order. It is not Aziraphale's cup of tea (literally), but it is so specific that it creates some semblance of being thought with care, and has a "hefty jigger" of syrup (again with the funny old words). And, as Aziraphale recognizes, it is "very nice!" (as The Metatron "jolly hoped so"), and The Metatron approves of him drinking it by admitting he has "ingested things in my time, you know?". This interaction is absolutely designed to build a bridge of understanding. The Metatron probably knew that the first response he would get was a "no", so he tailored his connection specifically to "mirror" Aziraphale: love of tasty human treats he has also consumed, funny old words like the ones he loves, a very human, worn, well-loved look. That was the bait for "the stroll": the moment when Aziraphale and Crowley get separated, because The Metatron knew that being close to Crowley, Aziraphale would have an hypervigilant soundboard to check the sense of what he was going to get offered. That's what the nasty look The Metatron gives to Crowley while leaving the bookshop builds (and it gets pinpointed by the music, if you were about to miss it).

The next thing we listen from The Metatron is "You don't have to answer immediately, take all the time you need" in such a friendly manner… we can see Aziraphale doubting a little, and then comes the suggestion: "go and tell your friend the good news!". This sounds like encouragement, but is "the reel". He already knows how Crowley would react, and is expecting it (we can infer it by his final reaction after going back for Aziraphale after the break up, but let's not get ahead of ourselves shall we?). He even can work up Muriel to take care of the bookshop while waiting for the catch.

What did he planted in Aziraphale's mind? Well, let's listen to the story he has to tell:

"I don't think he's as bad a fellow… I might have misjudged him!" — not strange in Aziraphale to have such a generous spirit while judging people. He's in a… partnership? relationship? somethingship? with a demon! So maybe first impressions aren't that reliable anyway. The Metatron made an excellent job with this, too.

"Michael was not the obvious candidate, it was me!" — This idea is interesting. Michael has been the stickler, the rule follower, even the snitch. They have been rewarded and recognized by that. Putting Aziraphale before Michael in the line of succession is a way of recognizing not only him, but his system of values, which has always been at odds with the main archangels (even when it was never an open fight).

"Leader, honest, don't tell people what they want to hear" — All these are generic compliments. The Metatron hasn't been that aware of Aziraphale, but are in line with what would have been said of any "rebel leader". They come into context with the next phrase.

"That's why Gabriel came to you, I imagine…" — I'm pretty sure The Metatron didn't imagine this, ha. He is probably imagining that the "institutional problem" is coalescing behind his back, and trying to keep friends close, but enemies closer… while dividing and conquering. If Gabriel rebelled, and then went searching for Aziraphale (and Crowley, they are and item and he knows it), that might mean a true risk for his status quo and future plans.

Heaven has great plans and important projects for you — this is to sweeten the pot: the hefty jigger of almond syrup. You will be able to make changes! You can make a difference from the inside! Working for an old man who feels strangely familiar! And who recognizes your point of view! That sounds like the best job offer of the world, really.

Those, however, are not the main messages (they are still building good will with Aziraphale); they are thought out to build the last, and more important one:

Heaven is well aware of your "de facto partnership" with Crowley…

It would be considered irregular if you wanted to work with him again…

You, and you alone, can bring him to Heaven and restore his full angelic status, so you could keep working together (in very important projects).

Here is the catch. He brought the coffee so he could "offer him coffee", but the implications are quite clear: if you want to continue having a partnership with Crowley, you two must come to Heaven. Anything else would be considered irregular, put them in a worst risk, and maybe, just maybe, make them "institutional enemies". Heaven is more efficient chasing enemies, and they have The Book of Life as a menace.

We already know how scared Aziraphale has always been about upsetting Heaven, but he has learned to "disconnect" from it through the usual "they don't notice". The Metatron came to tell him "I did notice, and it has come back to bite you". The implied counterpart to the offer is "you can always get death". Or even worse, nonexistence (we have already imagined the angst of having one of them condemned to that fate, haven't we?)

When The Metatron arrives, just after seeing Crowley leave the bookshop, distraught, he casually asks "How did he take it?", but he already knows. That was his plan all along: making them break up with an offer Aziraphale could not refuse, but Crowley could not accept. That's why he even takes the license to slightly badmouth Crowley: "Always did want to go his own way, always asking damn fool questions, too". He also arrive with the solution to the only objection Aziraphale would have: Muriel, the happy innocent angel that he received with so much warmth and kindness, is given the opportunity to stay on Earth, taking care of the bookshop. The only thing he would have liked to take with him is not a thing, and has become impossible.

If God is playing poker in a dark room and always smiling, The Metatron is playing chess, and he is quite good at it (that's why he loves everything to be predictable). He is menacing our pieces, and broke our hearts in the process… But I'm pretty sure he is underestimating his opponents. His awful remark of Muriel being "dim"; saying that Crowley "asks damn fool questions", and even believing that Aziraphale is just a softie that can be played like a pipe… That's why telling him the project is "The Second Coming" was an absolute gift for us as an audience, and it prefigures the downfall that is coming — the one Aziraphale, now with nothing to lose, started cooking in his head during that elevator ride (those couple of minutes that Michael Sheen gifted to all of us: the shock, the pain, the fury, and that grin in the end, with the eyes in a completely different emotion). Remember that Aziraphale is intelligent, but also fierce. Guildernstern commited a similar mistake in Hamlet, and it didn't go well:

"Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me! You would play upon me, you would seem to know my stops, you would pluck out the heart of my mystery, you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass, and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak. 'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, you cannot play upon me."

I'm so excited to learn how this is going to unfold!! Because our heroes have always been very enthusiastic at creating plans together, failed miserably at executing them, and even then succeeding… But now they are apart, more frustrated and the stakes are even higher. Excellent scenario for a third act!

*exits, pursued by a bear*

[davidtennantgenderenvy]

My Two Cents On The “ Is David Tennant Queer” Drama

As some of you know, I spent a solid third of the past year working on a movie-length video essay about David Tennant. This video essay features an eight minute section titled “Gender, Vulnerability, and Why David Tennant Is A Queer Icon”, which does not speculate on David’s own sexuality, but discusses the queer coding and subversion of gender norms in plenty of his roles and his importance as an ally to the LGBT community. At the same time, I was also coming to terms with my own identity as nonbinary and bisexual, and it ended up playing a crucial role in me finally working up the courage to come out to my parents. Characters like Crowley and the Doctor, both in terms of how they present themselves and how and who they love, have been absolutely instrumental in me developing my queer identity, and my comments section was full of people who had had similar experiences, who’d realized they were trans, nonbinary, gay, etc thanks to David and his characters. And as a result, I won’t deny that if David himself were to be queer, it would mean a lot to me.

Do I think David is queer? It’s certainly possible. I see a lot of how I express my queerness in how david chooses to express himself, most prominently through his frequent queer coding of characters who don’t necessarily have to be played as such. This can especially be seen through his Shakespeare characters, such as Richard, Hamlet, and some would argue Benedick as well. When I was 15 I played Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet, who I chose to play as a closeted young gay man harboring an unrequited crush on Romeo. I think I saw this role subconsciously as an outlet for my own repressed queerness, both of gender and sexuality, as I had experienced an unrequited crush on my female best friend the previous year which I was still in denial about. I’ve described my gender identity as “a girl with a chaotic tortured gay man inside of her that needs to be let out every once in a while”, which has never been more true than with Mercutio- a character who I might add, I took a great deal of inspiration from David when playing! In terms of using roles as an outlet for one’s queerness, I could absolutelt see this being true with David, especially when it comes to Crowley, who seems to have had an impact on David’s style, behavior, etc in a rather similar way to how he’s impacted me. I don’t want to act like David wearing pink docs means he must be gay, I think people should be allowed to wear whatever they want regardless of sexuality, but taken in conjunction with so many other things about him, it does make one wonder, and the fact that a seemingly straight man has been so many people’s queer awakening is a bit puzzling to say the least. I won’t pretend that these “signs” (if you interpret them that way), haven’t been increasing somewhat in the past year, and if I got to share my own coming out journey with the man who inspired it, I would be absolutely thrilled. I also can’t specifically think of an instance where David has SAID he is straight, as opposed to Taylor swift, who has.

With all of that said, where I personally draw the line is when mere speculation crosses into interfering with the subject’s personal relationships and the sense that one is OWED something. I believe that what matters to David more than anything is being a husband and a father. I believe he adores Georgia and his children and would not do anything in the world that he believes would jeopardize his family. As happy as I would be for David if he were to come out (probably as bi) I realize that that would put so much unwanted attention on his marriage and family and I think that’s the last thing he wants. I don’t think it’s IMPOSSIBLE that he and Michael Sheen are having a passionate love affair behind everyone’s backs, but I absolutely don’t consider it my place to insist that they are, because as much as I may feel like I do, I don’t know these people! And besides, if David were cheating on Georgia, he really would not be the person I thought he was.

So many queer people see themselves in David and his characters, and that is beautiful. And I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with having theories that David might be queer himself. However, it must be acknowledged that these theories are THEORIES, and they should not be used to invalidate people’s real life relationships- after all, it’s totally possible to be bi/pan and also be in a loving and healthy heterosexual relationship like David and Georgia at least seem to be in! If David were in fact “one of us”, I would welcome him with the openest of open arms, but unless and until he himself decides to proclaim himself that way, I will not expect anything of him other than to be the incredible artist and person we know and love.

[cleverclove]

WOAH…HOLY HELL

This really makes you wonder. Did Polonius know? And if so, how the HELL do you think he felt about it???

Remember what Hamlet said about Polonius being a “fishmonger?” What if he was referring to LAERTES, who Polonius was essentially allowing to get pimped out……god that is SO fucked up.

The best part about Hamlet is that we can literally make them whatever tf we want. Claudius is a hot zaddy to Laertes in your AU, while mine is really more of a creepy predatory kind of asshole. And they’re BOTH canon! To me!

YEAH! yeah, it's all canon, and the more productions of hamlet you see the more interpretations you get to have of all the characters.

in 2019 i saw a production where claudius and laertes are in a sauna as they plan out the poison plot, and there's ominous red lighting and that claudius was SO creepy and predatory that he reminded me of akio from revolutionary girl utena (aka the creepiest most predatory motherfucker around) and called it the Sauna of Seduction after Akio's Car of Seduction. so yeahhh in that version they were sleeping together and it was extremely exploitive. also fun because that was later the same trapdoor where ophelia's grave was :(

[eldritch-elrics]

thinking about rosencrantz & guildenstern are dead again. i think one thing about it is that it's such an excellent example of the sort of thing you can do in a fanfiction/transformative work that you can't really do in an original work? there is no R&G without the greater context of hamlet: hamlet both as a play and a wider cultural phenomenon. we know how these characters' stories will end, not just because we've read the title of the play, but because their ending has been etched into the literary consciousness. the tragedy extends beyond the bounds of either play and seems simultaneously more massive and more absurd because of it

[call-me-insane-but-wth]

Something that I've come to realize from interacting with the mzds Fandom and the #canon jiang cheng tag is that a lot of avid jc defenders and apologists don't even like Mdzs. Even, no, especially BECAUSE the story is straightforward and told plainly with not much room for interpretation.

The mmc was brought back to life and faced evidence of slander and appropriation of his work and name. Shrugs it off as 'history being told by the victors'. Discovers the real reason behind his death. Falls in love with an old colleague.

That's it. That's the bare bones of mdzs.

Wherefore do all of these think pieces come from? That sides with the *antagonists* of the story? The very same ppl who slandered and appropriated the mmc's name and work?

There's a lot of condenscion and pretentiousness being tossed about, couched in variations of "*I* know how to be objective and separate fiction from reality!1!!" But do you, though?

Because the reality is that the fiction you've consumed is not only telling, but SHOWING you who/which characters were in the wrong and how. Although you may not like the main character, mdzs IS 3rd person omniscient. The bias that jc stans are so bitter and venomous about is simply... Canonical unbiased 3rd person omniscient exposition.

In the final analysis, doesn't this/that mean that to you, the *author's* morality and her narrative no longer hold any value? After all, the author herself was the one to say that her mmc was morally good and righteous. So if you're calling the authors cognition of right and wrong into question, what on earth did you like about this work in the first place?

Don't like, don't read is an age old tenet of Fandom for a reason.

I had the pleasure of conversing with someone who considers that the consensual dubcon play between two consenting adults (lwj and wwx, incense chapter) to justify coercing the mmc into bowing his knees in reconciliation with his former shidi and wanna be patron (😅). Bc that was a moral failing worth punishment, I suppose.

Another post I saw that had me going ??? Was a post in which the op admitted to their own bias, but in summary, considered Wwx to be faulty simply because his 'idealism' was unrealistic and un-pragmatic, and hadn't amounted to a quantifiable sum.

Hey, forget the dissonance of admitting that the obvious plot of classism, scapegoating, disenfranchisment, and exploitation being lost on you, but to scorn a failed attempt at living up to ones principles... Isn't that also another way of allying oneself with the antagonists?

After all, scorning the 'short sightedness of rebellious peasants/immature youth' is straight out of a sneering gentry's playbook/lexicon.

So the onus isn't being put on the arbitrary and unjust laws of the setting of the world, but on the characters who dared to hope, to resist, but fail?

The narrative committed the horrible crime of being idealistic, so let's put on a sash with printed blocky letters of 'I'm being objective and realistic!' And critique a mc for daring to resist, fail, and not have the temerity to stay dead in a setting that has ghosts, supernatural animals, reincarnation, flying swords, and spells?

I feel like wwx would've been better received by this Western audience if he wasn't so... complex. I hate to say it, but I'd bet my last dollar that much of the disdain and dislike towards Wwx as a protagonist is that he (mdzs) challenges ppl's latent sexism. Ironically, from the canon jc tags, jc stans are the ones to attribute feminizing factors to Jc in an effort to leverage their defense.

[glitter-stained]

My mom, an English lit major: Someone's experience or fiction is subjective, so you can't just say there is a wrong or right way to engage with a story, it's a unique experience...

Me: *opens the dsm*

My mom: I take back what I said this is absolutely the wrong way, you've figured out the wrong way to do it, why are you like that

[cto10121]

Scrolling through your hamlet tag rn and all of your takes are so real. Rethinking my own thoughts rn - “de-fandomizing” as one might say.

So glad my meta is a palate cleanser to you. I can’t count the number of times I’ve read a really out-there Hamlet take (or really just the majority of most fanons in Shakespeare and of course R&J, the most bat-shit crazy of them all) and just…questioned everything about literal reality and went spiraling down the mental drain into the abyss where up is down, left is right, and nothing is what it was.

But nope! It’s not you, it’s just fandom being fan dumb. Don’t let it gaslight you into accepting weak-ass interpretations that are 90% projection and 10% text. Return as always to the text, and it will never fail you. At the very least you can hit the antis and fanon shippers with actual quotes to support your interpretation. If the fanon really is valid, they should be able to defend it likewise. Otherwise, it’s clownery and it should be eaten!!! And in the marketplace!!!

[cleverclove]

Twin siblings Laertes and Ophelia is something that can be so personal actually. Shakespeare himself had twins: Hamnet and Judith.

Could Laertes represent the grief Judith may have felt when she lost her brother? Does he represent the gaping hole Shakespeare saw in his young daughter?

[variousqueerthings]

my pretentious trait is that i get richard ii and coriolanus, RIP to the haters but they're literally the two best plays in their respective categories because the leads are That Good in my opinion

[sammaggs]

4x03 A Likely Story // 1x04 They Eat Horses, Don’t They? | Parallelism

If you don’t act right, Constable Benton Fraser is going to tell you a cautionary tale with an emotionally devastating ending and leave you to figure out the mistakes you’ve made.

Like you can’t run from your problems. And you shouldn’t ignore the person who loves you, the one who’s making you spaghetti on a board because you casually mentioned it a week earlier.

[cleverclove]

“he’s just being sort of a jerk” HELP 😭💀 that is just something Hamlet would do. He’s insensitive but definitely not on purpose; I mean, see how he called Horatio “poor” as a compliment? Bffr Hamlet 🙄

Still, I fully believe Hamlet would have totally been the king who stopped the cycle of classism, with his friendship with Horatio and, to a lesser extent, Ophelia and Laertes being no small reason

I also think he influences Ophelia so like. she and hamlet are just hanging out and she's like "we need to redistribute the wealth" and hamlet is thinking "...I'm a little intimidated but you're actually SO RIGHT."

TLDR; Laertes indirectly causes Hamlet to become socialist. what a guy.

PLEASE YES!!

there's also a really interesting recurring element of hamlet "poormouthing" and almost trying to make himself more relatable.

Off the top of my head: "And now, good friends, as you are friends, scholars and soldiers, give me one poor request." and "And what so poor a man as Hamlet is may do, to express his love and friending to you, God willing, shall not lack." and "Beggar that I am, I am even poor in thanks, but I thank you." and "What a rogue and peasant slave am I!"

and after a while laertes has to tell him to knock it off, because we all know he's not actually poor and he may think he's being supportive but actually he's just being sort of a jerk.