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harleyspinn · 9 months ago

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i reworked the noble hierarchy in westeros

i saw a tweet about this yesterday and couldn’t stop thinking about it. it said something along the lines of “i wish grrm had used more diversity in highborn titles bc everyone is just a lord.” while i think grrm said he did this on purpose to make it all less confusing, i had a hyperfixation on noble rankings a few months ago and started developing more nuance to this stuff once i fixated on asoiaf. because of the tweet i really Really wanted to share this but i do not have a public twitter account (thank god)

also i don’t like that the literal king of the continent is called “your grace” when that title usually refers to non-royal dukes / duchesses. yeah it used to be a monarch’s title but the term “majesty” is so much more dramatic and i Love that stuff !!! i used a combination of english and canon titles with a dash of russian influence

THIS IS JUST FOR FUN it’s completely self serving and i wanted to share it for anyone else who desires even more complication in this fuckin series Don’t Attack Me.

so yippee here is my personal opinion on how westerosi nobility should be addressed (under the cut bc long post). the heading is the reworked title and form of address, and below i have random notes and reasonings aka me infodumping

pm if you have any questions or want to contribute!!!!

King / Queen of Westeros - “His / Her Imperial Majesty”

i wanted this to be more commanding and imposing to really show how coveted and important the throne and its power is aka give more realistic purpose for people to want it so bad. i think grander titles can put that idea him to people’s heads (besides “it’s neat” or as daemon said “a big chair made of swords”)

the title king / queen is perfectly good but i think it should be reserved for only the sole person on the throne. in my made-up ending of asoiaf, dany is queen of the six kingdoms (the north seceded and is ruled by sansa like in the show, and they have a close political allyship) and abolishes male-favoring primogeniture.

she also does some other stuff but that doesn’t matter here

westeros is technically an empire but i don’t want to call the monarch the emperor or empress, so i used just the form of address. since it’s a lot of syllables, the full three-word title is only needed during introductions or the very first address of the monarch. afterwards, the person speaking to them can just call them “your majesty” or “majesty” or “my king / queen”

—

Spouse of the King / Queen:

Grand Duke / Duchess - “His / Her Imperial Highness”

again, i wanted the king / queen to be The Person In Charge (whether or not the actual person does the work they should lol) so their spouse is less powerful than them and therefore not called “majesty”

i wanted to change this title more drastically because of my made-up ending (where dany is queen) and how there would definitely be future female monarchs who marry men, and i think having the king consort be called King would be confusing to people who are used to having only male rulers. it’d mess with their little heads

a duke is a nobleman who rules over a duchy and a lot of them are royal. in a lot of european monarchies, the grand duke title holds a similar amount of weight as the grand prince or archduke (i think used only in austria, so i didn’t go with that one) and only less than the king / queen so i thought this was a good fit :)

THAT BEING SAID!!!!!! this is also a lot more syllables. i decided that culturally and historically, most people have shortened their reference to the king’s wife and call her the queen. in all formal situations she would be the grand duchess, but calling her the queen for ease of conversation isn’t treason

—

Widowed spouse of the King / Queen:

Grand Lord / Lady - “His / Her Imperial Highness”

this was a recent addition because i thought everyone calling alicent the queen in hotd was a little silly. she was the queen for some time and is now the mother of the current king (and queen) and i like that they call her “queen dowager” sometimes, but since she would have been called the grand duchess in this timeline, i adapted that into something that seems respected and important but matches the political power they hold (not very much)

like how the grand duchess is casually called the queen, a grand lord / lady is sometimes called the queen dowager or the queen mother (see next point)

there is an exception to this title: if the widowed spouse is regent while their child is underaged or unable to rule (ceresi after joffrey is crowned) then they are called the queen regent or the queen mother, but becomes grand lady after their child comes of age. another example of this would be aegon ii being crowned when he’s an adult, so alicent was never his regent, therefore she would only be queen dowager or mother

all of this also swaps to if there’s a male widow it’s all the same thing just made masculine bc i don’t know the nuance of gender identity in westeros

i don’t like this one as much but idk what else to call it lmao

—

Siblings of the King / Queen:

Grand Prince / Princess - “His / Her Imperial Highness”

similar reasoning to the grand duke / duchess. siblings of an active monarch are super important but are not the same as their spouse

concerning targcest: the more important title overrules the one they’re first entitled to. example: helaena is never a grand princess because her and aegon married before he was crowned. she goes right to grand duchess, whereas aemond and daeron (yeah.) are grand princes

importantly, this title stays the same if and when the sibling outlives the monarch. they keep it for their whole lives Unless they gain a more important one, whereas almost all other titles change as soon as the monarchs do

—

Children, Grandchildren, and Siblings-in-law of the King / Queen

Prince / Princess - “His / Her Imperial Highness”

sometimes simplicity is key. in my head, any augments to this title indicates a lowering in status (the addition of “grand” meaning that they aren’t in line for the throne anymore, and the addition of “lord / lady” lowering them to a further removed position. second one is coming up next)

—

Children-in-law and nephews / nieces of King / Queen:

Lord Prince / Lady Princess - “His / Her Highness”

these guys either aren’t blood related to the monarch or aren’t really in line for the throne. since non-royal nobility is still all variations of lord / lady to me, giving them this additional word kind of removes them from the main royal family

also taking away the full extent of the address by removing the “imperial.” they’re deserving of respect because of their relation, but are still more lowborn

the children-in-law of a monarch can keep their royal title(s) if they are widowed, but they lose them if they divorce

—

Great-grandchildren of King / Queen:

Great Lord / Lady - “His / Her Grace”

and so appears the title of “your grace”

i wish i didn’t have to come up with this one but people have kids so damn young in this world that the kids often have actual relationships with their great-grandparents. so here we go, a royal-friendly variation of the lord / lady title. they aren’t grand, but they are great

—

King / Queen of The North - “His / Her Majesty”

i like the idea of a free north. idk what the iron islands are doing and i haven’t thought about it enough to care yet

the north is not an empire, so they don’t get the addition of “imperial”

—

Spouse of the King / Queen of The North:

King / Queen - “His / Her Grace”

again, i just wanted to be loyal to grrm’s choice of address. and i don’t think the north would care as much as to who is who in terms of The Ruler, so sansa’s husband can be called the king

—

Widowed spouse of the King / Queen of The North:

Lord King / Lady Queen

they’re royal but they’re also not too politically powerful. same as the westerosi one. i just got hit with sleepiness so sorry if these notes fall off in terms of quality

they don’t have a form of address beyond “my lord / lady” bc the north is less formal

—

Siblings of the King / Queen of The North:

Prince / Princess

same as above in reference to the form of address!

i didn’t want to name it this for a while Only Because arya would not like being called princess. but it made sense for everyone else, so here we are

—

Children of the King / Queen of The North:

Prince / Princess - “His / Her Grace”

if there aren’t any kids of the king or queen, then the younger sibling that they name their heir is also called this. like when robb is king then bran is his heir bc he doesn’t have kids so he is called this when it’s just him and rickon in winterfell early in the series

—

Prince / Princess of Dorne - “His / Her Highness”

full respect to the dornish wanting to keep in their ways hell yeah

this also goes for the spouse of the ruler! the both of them are meant to rule in tandem because dorne is less exclusionary than the rest of westeros in this sense

—

Siblings of the Prince / Princess of Dorne:

Lord / Lady

dornish royal custom is more informal but i still wanted the family to be called something, so i mirrored the rest of the continent

—

Children of the Prince / Princess of Dorne:

Lordborn / Ladyborn - “His / Her Grace”

same as above!

—

Head of a Great House - Highlord / Highlady - “His / Her Grace”

this is basically a lord paramount. the primary house of a region (the old kings) is called a great house. i wanted to keep some of grrm’s titles so not much would reallyyyy have to change, but there’s basically no difference between a lord paramount and a vassal house and a lowborn one so here we are

the books refer to these people as “high lords” so that’s mostly where this came from. i also really like combining words that make sense to be combined! that’s why some of these new titles are Just altered versions of lord or lady

i want the highlords to be distinctly different from lower houses, so they have a simple form of address

—

Spouse and Siblings of the Head of a Great House:

Lord / Lady

yes both of these guys have the same title because they probably carry similar power and influence with the highlord

—

Children of the Head of a Great House:

Lordborn / Ladyborn

this is also inspired by the term “lordling” that’s used in the canon. once one of the children becomes a highlord, their siblings all take the lord or lady title

—

Head of a normal House - Lord / Lady

boring run of the mill yes yes let’s go

i don’t feel like making another category: the spouses of a head are also called a lord or lady. same thing

—

Children of a Head of a normal House:

Lordborn / Ladyborn

born of a lord. girl is lady born of a lord

—

MISC NOTES!!!!

knights are still Ser ofc

once a person is appointed to a role of importance, they themselves are obligated to the title of Lord or Lady. this doesn’t extend to their family members. in my mind, these roles are ones on the small council or a high steward. ofc if this person already has that title then they just keep it

instead of “my lord husband” (example), the royal family would refer to other royal family members as “my royal husband” or “my royal hand” if the hand of the king is another royal family member

if a highlady marries a man then the husband does not need to change his house / surname, but if a highlord marries a lady or ladyborn then she becomes “Lady [name] [house surname] of House [husband’s house]”

the daughters of a head can keep their lady title if they marry someone with no titles but they hold little power

widows of a head may also keep their title but them and their children hold little power after the passing of their lord

nieces and nephews don’t get titles unless they’re related to royalty

children born to a lady and a non-lord do not get titles

idk if this is canon but in my head all dornish bastards are legitimized if they are children of any royal family members

the introduction “of House [name]” is reserved for royalty, great houses, and the head of a normal house. everyone else who belongs to a lower house is just called “[first name] [house name]”

continued from above and similar to the informal address of a grand duke / duchess, royalty and nobles and such are still addressed without the “of House [name]” but only in informal settings or after being addressed with their full title

i probably said this, but titles of all house members change right as fellow members or lose titles (examples: if a head of house dies before their siblings the siblings return to their prior titles, often lordborn / ladyborn if they were also children of the previous head. same for widowed partners)

IF YOU READ THIS ALL THANK U I AM FUELED BY AUTISM AND EGGO WAFFLES

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #house of the dragon #hotd #worldbuilding #world building #monarchy #idk how to tag this at ALL!!!#house targaryen #house lannister #house baratheon #house stark

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horizon-verizon · 5 months ago

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Isn’t it kinda weird that people ship daemyra? I'm not targeting daemyra, but the shippers. Though their relationship was acceptable in their era, I see many fans using this as a pretext to actively endorse it, which is problematic. It's one thing to acknowledge the historical and cultural context of a relationship, but it's another thing entirely to romanticize or ship it when we now have the knowledge and understanding that one of the individuals involved is a child.

Need your opinion on this

*EDITED POST - 2/2/25*

DISCLAIMER: I am a Daemyra shipper. Read with caution. I DONT ship them when Rhaenyra is a child & Daemon uses her against Viserys! but when they are older, even though (I-can't-see-I'm-blind sort of situation).

Firstly, what do people really mean when they say "endorse"? I know it may seem like splitting hairs, but to "endorse" vs to be okay with something or to like it are two different things. Because endorse means:

1. to approve openly [Merriam Webster] endorse an idea, especially: to express support or approval of publicly and definitely 2. to publicly or officially say that you support or approve of (someone or something) [Brittanica]

Basically to promote it as something people SHOULD do and are morally licensed to do if they so choose--to approve of it happening in future (near or far). To encourage people (real or fictional) to do it. And some Dameyra shippers, in my experience, do not do that--or PROMOTE/APPROVE of grooming (some are too okay with it and actually do, I'll give you that).

I think bc of what I mention later, there's an understanding that while there is not an ideal situation, it's happening bc of circumstances that are in a weird way percieved as wholesome nontheless. Rhaenyra and Daemon are an exception bec of the conditions they are in.

Finallly, at this point, GRRM, writes his relationships w/ or w/o the pleasure or advice of his fans as most published novel writers do. I cannot "encourage" or "promote" a thing already arranged if we are talking within the story--and of course, Daemyras tend to not "endorse" such relationships and abuses in real life. Yes, fiction can inspire people to do terrible things and has for years, esp w/how impressionable people can be or eager to find ways to justify their behavior. But would that also mean that we're laying responsibility off of the people who should be looking at a child-adult abuse as "sexy but refuse to and make as if they'd never be inclined to do stuff like this regardless of GRRM? It's a fine line, and I don't think the "answer" is to ignore how context and the progression of the story goes.

Because it does determine the quality of said troubling situation we're assessing, and said quality as GRRM has written is not an abuse tale. I also don't want to see grooming--the definition--lose its ssens of "purposeful predation to shape victim to one's own needs regardless of said victim's own needs, often turning them against their own family or support base for said domination".

Secondly, you're essentially asking why it isn't a dealbreaker? You could refer to my post HERE, but here it is in short:

Perhaps I'm going to be flowery, exhaustive, and "purple prosey" again, but I think it is basically that that very context creating the exploration of a tragedy of forces stronger than oneself. People love tragic tales, esp doomed ones. It's almost always validating in that there is a persistence of self against outside pressures that may or may not (but usually does) have said pressures be compulsions to conform against one's own happiness or authenticity, even and sometimes especially when the couple dies at the end. That in of itself is a sort of "resistance" that's supposed to coincide with GRRM's whole thing of "choosing life in spite of death" or "we found love in a hopeless place" sort of thing in ASoIaF, but for royals and in a royal iteration. And Daemon is ironically a haven in the midst of it but much more than Harwin was.

Rhaenyra's story is a doomed one not because she was the entire cause of the Dance or some evil temptress but bc the historical actions of her ancestors and the feudal-patriarchal system they all live under has already set up designs against women and those the women could use to occupy the positions granted to men. GRRM loves his tragic tales of love; look at Rhaelya! But they also tend to--long way forward--lead to strains of hope in later generations...which works to make the whole thing even more bitter sweet and melancholy. They also both buy into it of course, which certainly contributed, but from the jump we know these two will not succeed. So from there it's a thing of enjoying the couple as they are and what they serve in the narrative. Oh, and of course the true star is Dany, and Rhaenyra had to die for Dany's story to be what it was (death of the dragons, women subjugated, Targs losing their sense of self leading to the Rebellion).

When there is no or mostly and actively morally upright party like a Daenerys, humans will root for the most impressive, thrilling, or aesthetically beautiful story/characters/relationships that scratches that itch some. You can certainly whack GRRM for creating so many ships that are this too-taboo thing(s), but people are very prone to misleading some things about people-as-people that I think (even with the historical inaccuracies GRRM defends as "accurate" about ages when noble people married) the writer does convincingly capture between this "conversation" in his work about the relationship between environment and choice. At least for enough people that there is something to how he's doing it.

And then, yes, sometimes people will over-romanticize, and much more than I think you're imagining it, anon. I've read some fics...let's say that sometimes people feel the need to dramatically change the characters that always puts me off bec it erases what was "fun" about them in the first place.

Here it is written in another way:

At risk of just repeating anon, the draw of Daemyra for a lot of people is that CONSIDERING THE CIRCUMSTANCES AND EVEN DESPITE/BECAUSE OF THEM, they had one of the most the strongest bonds for the longest time (and yes, even with Daemon loving Laena) in the orig story and they matched each others' drive/fire/pride (the last in all its meanings).

They seem (operative word here) to understand each other the most, were the most comfortable with each other, and were the others' biggest support.

Again, it's not exactly the incest but what the incest/age gap (IN THE CONTEXT GRRM CREATED) does for the bond that comes to be, the context of Targs distrusting other houses (often w/good reason but it's an imperfect situation) AND wanting to preserve a lost culture.

Daemon for all intents and purposes could have become a 100% perfect manifestation of patriarchal privilege and male pride: one of the best warriors of his time, access to one of the most formidable and impressive creatures through his state of birth, action-oriented but not opposed to using strategy tactics, nearly irresistible to women an attitude and inspiring enough to men both in the story and in the fandom with his charisma, blah blah. And he certainly still had all those things or was written that way.

The kickers are that he's forced to acknowledge his truer desires to support his family towards prosperity and survival--where his loyalty to Rhaenyra comes in--and those desires are so much a priority he basically shuns much else, or at least removes himself from that, and thus he cannot/does not bother to put on much airs or try to gain approval...which is a very common thing amongst nobility who often curry favor or imagine themselves to be "good" people because they follow an honor code. There's a "purity" to that, an shameless honesty that draws people in similar to how some people feel about Oberyn and Jaime. And it especially is very attractive to people who have quite a bit of shame themselves over love and sex (for whatever reason, religious shame, queer shame, female shame for sexuality and desiring a stronger partner even anyway) and are (at first or never) inclined to not to try to ennoble it but are lonely and looking for a story of a strong connection/ride or die.

That loyalty to Rhaenyra is a "flaw" that some men in the fandom never forgave GRRM for or are even aware of or accept as true.

Rhaenyra similarly could have been a 100% typical or ideal princess--either way, people wouldn't have liked her or found something to say was a damning "flaw" to say she deserved her fate-- and in some ways, she was. Loved wearing luxurious things and showing off her beauty, beautiful, fertile. But she's inplacably different from the ideal of Andal patriaechy because she is a dragon-rider of a "foreign" people-descent and has magic running through her. She also is not either bahaviorall/sexually demure nor sexually ashamed and self restrictive.

Rhaenyra "replaced" Daemon as heir, yet instead of really planning her downfall and committing to his ire against Viserys (yes after being forced away), he appears accept his subordinate position towards the middle and end of his life, even before they marry and fully commitsd to her without losing his own...je-ne-sais-quoi. Despite her loneliness and the surrounding doubt around her for being a female heir, Rhaenyra never seemed to seriously lose her belief in her right to occupy that sort of space and never demurred like some other female characters we (pre-the rise of YA fiction and the Capable+Alluring MC Girl/Woman) were familiar with WHILE not being that kind or good a person (the trope of a Steel-Under-Silk strong, Lady usually has the Lady be good or kind of selfless, sometimes to the point of self effacement).

Both had a sort of belief in themselves to a degree and under contexts that put off both readers and their own contemporaries--for different reasons...sometimes the same ones. that sort of symmetry is very appealing BECAUSE OF AND UNDER THE CONTEXT of a world and system (unequally, but the closest it's gotten and could get).

It's a very heady and attractive dynamic.

The argument of "for the time/environment", I think, is for use of when we have people claim that some characters like Ceryse Hightower, Larra Rogare, Daemon, Viserys I are p*dophiles...when we have Robert Baratheon, Craster, Walder Frey, etc. right there. that they go out of their way to mess up children or teens bec they are genuinely want them for their teenhood/childhood. The childness (full knowledge of childness) is exactly what they (p*dos) aim for.

Sure, none of these characters do not and cannot have the exact same moral systems or values as real moderns (sometimes Western people) do...because they simply do not have that framework to live on and through. So automatically saying a character is a p*dp or a groomer can be hasty and inaccurate.

SOMETIMES (again, Walder, Craster, Robert, these were certified p*dos).

It requires one to think about what a groomer or a p*do really is. Which I've squared down to the person wanting to prey on what is known to them and everyone around them as a "child" or "too young" that is socially excluded from every practice and dynamic of sex and romance that adults are expected to participate with each other, and not with said child (or simply manipulate them away from their security/non-security to do so) because the "child" cannot develop psychologically/physically when said adults interrupt their development and/or make them think is one thing when it is the other.

Characters like Daemon, Viserys, etc. do not try to seek out what is recognized as "children" or "childlike" (and the "young maidens" or virgins the text states weirdly juxtaposes the lack of Daemon continuing said behavior into his adulthood, which true groomers/p*dos always do). All this is strictly against the idea of him being a "groomer", even though like other men and a few women, he gets into something with 14/15 yr old Rhaenyra...

HOWEVER, it is true that patriarchies tend to apply sex-purity values in ways that inevitably encourage attentions on teens (as these are the closest) AND this ALSO doesn't mean that GRRM wasn't/isn't trying to say that this is still a wrong thing for 111 A.C. Daemon to have done and that it wasn't screwy. (I think this is kinda what also "saves" it for some people, that the narrative acknowledges this particular crazy as crazy).

And just as with Dany and Drogo and the age revealed at her first pregnancy--even with Dany having been a bridal slave to Rhaenyra's princess and thus presenting a more visceral stake the latter doesn't have quite--determining how one sees Dany's regard for Drogo as blatant victim-mindset. For Daemyra, though, it's still not exactly the same and it's just that there isn't much for a claim, story-wise not life wise, of blatant you-know-what-it's.

There are about 4 main theories as to why Daemon of the bk does what he does with Rhaenyra:

he wanted to get back at Viserys for all the years of his ignorance and the recent event of his shipping Mysaria off only her her to lose what would have been Daemon's first kid (so a denial of person, position, and his own heir/family when he seemed to start trying to make himself after a long series of war in the Stepstones, also trying to make some "glory" for himself that Viserys--for him--keeps preventing or ruining)

he thought that the issues of succession Rhaenyra or even Viserys might have with the burgeoning greens, esp Otto, would be better handled if he forced Viserys to have him and Rhaenyra marry and combine lineages...tag him in, coach, he's been ready and you're not doing the job right, so let me in (ironically, I think this is very Visenya-coded...no one is going to be as competent and dedicated as me...just [ugh] with all the male trappings and privilege that shaped his...all that) -- a burgeoning storm they all had to prepare for, and he has to be there for them to survive -- he sees Rhaenyra at court surrounded by greens and is so offended he's even more determined--some might read "desperate"--to handle things even with such little...grace, shall we say

he was "tailoring" and "preparing" Rhaenyra to become more like the wife/partner that would make him most happy and rationalized that he would pay her back with his "hand" and sword, bc they were the best bet for their house...yeah...

when he got there and saw Rhaenyra in her "marriageable" state, he became attracted to her and similar to Laena and the duel, decided to "risk" the damage to his own rep...without letting himself think of the possible damage to Rhaenyra

or, ALL OF THE ABOVE...SOME OF THE ABOVE

Whatever Daemon did with her/to her (sex, kissing, near-sex, groping, etc., we don't know what happened but I think it was either sex or something that looked like it would definitely lead to that), it wasn't based on a habit and intention of straight up p. More so him being very selfish, continuing the pattern of Targ men Targ-menning against their female counterparts. Using Rhaenyra against Viserys, putting his foot down, whatever.

Therefore he was still abusing his experience and relation with her, the "child-not-child-who-should-have-been-seen-as-a-child-but-wasn't-bc-society-and-patriarchal-selfishness/advantage".

So I don't fault or perfectly disagree with people who say "groomer!" After all, their priority is not allowing other crazy people or out already-male-scorched world in further footholding for nonsense in the real world. Can't call them stupid or morally incorrect for that or being concerned. There's a child that should have been separated from these practices of sex with adults, after all.

However, I still think there's a misunderstanding of what's being conveyed by the text versus what such a thing would be in real life (Watsonian vs Doylist) AND we can't stop ourselves form writing or showing even the odd and taboo or genuinely concerning stuff when there's something to be shown/told.

It changed to what it needed to be, became what was its potential, AND Rhaenyra was set to marry someone else (before the confirmation that it was always gonna be Laenor, and she didn't know it was him until last minute) who she would likely never be able to trust because of her position, men, yada yada. Might as well be someone she cared/trusted more than anyone else for her entire life and we know would not go out of his way, even shift for someone he thought was "worthy", and whoo-boy, was Rhaenyra "worthy" to Daemon. Again, refer to the doomed narrative.

Now Daemon here is so not a good guy if he:

was willing to use his own about-to-married-off-and-subiect-to-purity-politics-standard-that-could-affect-her-reputation both as a girl/woman-as-a-female-heir niece in this way, even if it was after Viserys basically caused him and Mysaria to lose their first kid and came after years of Viserys basically ignoring Daemon--Daemon's eyes, bk and show--in favor of a man who could never hope to be as loyal as Daemon....IN FACT, THIS PROVES HE WAS NEVER THE "GOOD" GUY (I'm yelling at some fics)

prioritizes "sameness" and it comes off as arrogance--"only people like me can handle all this"...however, he'd be not totally incorrect (just annoying to some, charming to others, a little bit of both and feeding-into-each-other for others-others). He's not only a person who grew up, like both female and male nobles, value having the highest classed and prestigious person as a potential mate even if it may contradict "obedience" and he like others wishes to, he also. Again, the appeal of SYMMETRY. And sameness (albeit, in lesser degrees) does have an importance in how many people define what their ideal partner is. Not have the same hobbies or ways and color of dress, but values. Which Rhaenyra and Daemon have the potential of to the max.

If a potential partner's "worth" to be of a certain category or class...but it's fun to see shamelessness at a point (the limit is of course potential grooming) AND such shamelessness works to, again, support said female character bc it's a great pair to loyalty, which Rhaenyra needs a lot of and assurance of from.

And, no, I don't think she got enough of that from Harwin for all that she did love him (if they did become lovers...but I know you know they were, come on now). Those two had to hide; Rhaenyra's not a hider, not where it doesn't concern her kids' safety at least.

Ironically those assurances come from the reversed--or at least done a little topsy turvy--familial relations, feudal constraints, AND the reality of Targaryens being both a part of this society but also not really on part because of their dragons/innate magicness but also because they are the ruling family.

They are apart from most people around them and find more things in common between themselves, us against the world (yes, in the bk, too); isolated always--unless you're like Rhaena, Dreamfyre's 1st rider, who could and did find female friends everywhere and discovered more freedom and comfort in them through their woman-ness than anyone in her family...but even then, she was more or less emotionally isolated just by being such a woman and a Targ, and the male stink still manages to encroach its way in through Androw Farman and the love she had for Androw's father/her lover's love for said Androw. and as royals, they are by social definition not in physical proximity, thus not as easier seen as any more than political figures/leaders. I mean, sure, we might say "boo hoo", and we'd not be totally wrong, but there is still an effect of treating people not like people that humans have never been able to rein in, and it's important to how the Targs handled many things and were perceived, thus how they responded--queue Jaehaerys I. When we especially talk about the costs to oneself and to how others treat you under the nonphysical protections of power. Whether for good or ill.

Contrast to Jaehaerys and Alysanne, who, thought GRRM notes as one of the greatest pairs, also end up separated by Alysanne's & Jaehaerys' fights over their children's safety and places in the succession, with the obvious running line of it going back to misogyny for the sake of assimilating/holding power instead of using it for making the said society a little better/a lot better.

Contrast to Daario and Daenerys (yes, yes, why would I compare PoV character's observations of a person vs a history book, we get it), Daemyra/RoguesDelight has Daemon knowing and giving more suggestion of longevity bc it's suggested in the text that he had access to the most intimate stirrings of Rhaenyra's head (final letter at Maidenpool as well as all I said above) in a way Daario never did or wanted to with Dany. Oh, of course Daario knew Dany loved her people, was lonely, was all that and the 3rd; but I trump that up to be his observation of what she needed and wanted so he could indulge in being with such a woman and profit from it. Even though he wasn't exactly terrible or whatever, or impatient. This is far from Dany's fault, tbc. Daario is gonna Daario. But, as one person kind brilliantly explained about Dany being a goddess in Twitter:

Part of her struggles is w being dehumanized as a symbol of power but she constantly subverts that by placing the weight of her responsibility/influence into liberating ppl.

Jaehaerys I sorta sets himself and his later scions, by contrast, even with it having had the desired effect of getting people off his back about sibling incest. So does Aegon I, tbh, when while it left the Targs the ability to adapt to their necessities concerning succession, his and his sons leaving it open to duking-it-out...then Aegon named heir over Rhaena...made way for the first stone against women in their house....those most necessarily it seems (after the Dance).

Anyway, they were pretty solid until Rhaenyra's kids started falling like dominoes and were caught in a deceit.

I remember an ask I got once about Daemon showing Rhaenyra explicit imagery in S1E4, where anon said that him doing so proves he is a groomer in the show, where Rhaenyra is 19 instead of 14-15. An adult but just barely AND a lot of people hold that grooming--nonsexual, too--can happen to people to people as old as 34. Personally, I think that the latter is more general manipulation more than "grooming", but I digress and it doesn't really work for 18-20 year olds and up, who again, are practically teenagers.

But I brought up my misgivings about Daemon wanting to abuse children/children adjacent for its own sake already, and it's less evident in the show where the show makes it a point that he wanted Rhaenyra at most stages of her life (when again, she wouldn't be a child-child to them, scowl at GRRM, not me):

the beach scene in S1E7 with adult Rhaenyra, we all saw them heave for each other

we hear/see nothing of his messing with too-young girls after said marriage...the narrative implies he was likely imagining it as some "perfect" Valyrian bride...who happens to be around the same age as state as his niece (still problematic for all the implications of Rhaenyra's significance to him----both in the nature of sex work affecting women/girls AND we really didn't need to hear of that without proving how old those girls usually were to be so used like this as proxies…this is where I personally would have rolled my sorry self out) -> -> -> the probable immediate recall of Jorah doing similar with Dany OR simply Mysaria's observation of this unconscious/repressed desire/teasing him and show!Daemon never having actually done these things -> -> -> of course this could be due to any number of reasons, like his frustrations with Viserys manifesting in looking for a companion in the closest person possible more than that sort of desire

Mysaria: What troubles you, my Prince? I could bring in another. Perhaps a maiden. I have several. I could even arrange one with silver hair. [pause]

This included language of "could" and "perhaps" and "even" (as if this were a thing that she knows it's out of the ordinary) plus her solicitousness to meet his silence and disappeared enthusiasm indicates that show!Daemon was not in the habit of messing w/very young sex workers as bk!Daemon is rumored and told (A Question of Succession):

"and was said to have an especial fondness for deflowering maidens"

Language is important these types of documents. We're given an entire description of his philandering and the contrast of "he sampled" (definite, final, statement-to-not-be-doubted), but there is room with "was said" for Daemon to not have gone around this particular act of seeking out virgin girls. Like how one would say now "I heard such and such also went pulling people's pants down after Marcus saw him go into a strip club" or "people say that Marsha went to Payless for her prom shoes".

Active ("he sampled") vs passive voice ("he[...]was said") can be pretty important to indicate what def happened vs what people believed and could have happened but was never proven. But what do I know, I'm just a probably too-biased Daemyra shipper (this genuinely was not to be snarky, really, you can take or leave my points).

END

For me, it's more when Rhaenyra & Daemon both get older that they shine and I "approve" or really most enjoy Rouges Delight (bk ship name some have taken to call Daemyra) whatever you want to name and distinguish the couple. (SHOWWISE, I prefer their younger interations [pre E6, S1] not bc Emma is a bad actor--they re not, they're just underutilized and Rhaenyra is written so...terribly that I can never get as into it...I liked Daemyra when they reconciled in S2, for example, but I hated how they got there and not bc of "the ship is sinking" but bec it genuinely was not written well and depended on diminishing both characters). I'm not, however, out here trying to say that anyone else should love this ship, this couple, this story just as much as I don't really mind people not getting into GRRM's writing.

The 111 A.C. issue, there is a certain odd quality it of being obviously out of line and manipulative...while evidence of being a convergence of long-held tension, a beginning towards an inevitable outcome years down the line. SYMMETRY and good writing.

I suspect that part of the appeal for some is that push-pull of the delight of "matching freaks and the moral conflict of "but....he's her uncle and he's 2x her age and/or they probably did things when she was way too young", but that's a whole other thing. It keeps people engaged and is perfectly symptomatic of that quality of medievalesque/historical fiction, sure, but bc humans love to play with taboos in fiction...to a certain point. (Personally, again, it is that later timeline that "saved" Daemon for me, as flawed as that may be.) They can indulge in the curiosity of the play of "what ifs" GRRM writes and the subsequent quandaries safely in fiction without getting openly judged & misunderstood for wanting such stories.

Sometimes we "play" too close to the sun, though, I admit.

So unless someone's gone off the deep end trying to say that they wouldn't be bothered by a 15 yr old and her 2x older uncle smooching in real life, or try to deny that Daemon was performing, it really doesn't discomfit me that much in the grander scheme of things.

And at the same time, again, I can't blame HotD for uping Rhaenyra's age AND people for just not jiving or hating the ship just as there are those who cannot ever get into ASoIaF for the incessant (to them, too often unpunished by the narrative) incest even outside of the Targs alone. And I get how this is just not going to be enough or that he later is her strongest supporters is enough for a lot of people. But I do want the air cleared a bit and explain the position from where I'm standing. Could change, but I dunno about that.

Perhaps this all too biased a breakdown. I warned ya.

This is all in regards to shipping, of course. 😉 Anyway, watch out, there might be more freaks about you in your everyday life like Daemyra shippers, anon!

#daemyra #asoiaf shipping #canon shipping #rhaenyra and daemon #fire and blood characters #daemon's characterization #rhaenyra's characterization #fire and blood #asoiaf

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fairykukla · 3 months ago

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His reference to the Disney-fied take on the middle ages caused everything to coalesce for me:

Many people may be adding that there are only two ways to write high fantasy: the Disney Way with princesses and magic and castles and knights, and the "Realistic" way with politics and savagery.

Everyone is using words like "Realistic" and "Truthful" to mean the opposite of children's stories. They're not actually realistic. They're not historically accurate. They're just fantasies aimed at adults instead of children.

So can we just say that GRRM writes Adult Fantasies? Not "Realistic", not "Historically accurate," but just Adult Fiction.

Or can't adults enjoy things that aren't The News or Pornography?

I do believe that GRRM can write good stories. I also believe that GOT and ASOIAF aren't good stories, though they seem to scratch a particular itch for many adult readers, and also adult TV watchers.

Those people who love his stories call his Adult Fantasy work "Historical" or "Realistic" because they likely lack the ability to identify what it is about them that is appealing.

People who actually study history either turn their noses up (guilty) or just laugh and say things like, "Oh, I know it's not accurate, but it's fun! It's my guilty pleasure."

My mom loved the books, but she Would Never call them "realistic." On the other hand, my mom is a writer, an English teacher, a student of history, and a big fan of both fantasy and SF literature. She's read tons of books about real history, and high fantasy adventures.

Maybe if it's the first time a fantasy story "grabbed" you, it's important to latch it to a value that justifies it?

Me, I read what I like.

Someone over on Discord asked, "I'm morbidly curious: How BAD is A Song of Ice and Fire in terms of the authenticity George claims it to be?"

My reply was straightforward:

The long and the short of it is that ASOIAF is basically a vehicle for GRRM to present both his rape fetish and his Hobbesian view on human nature and has less historical accuracy than Frozen or most other Disney movies.

That's actually a good way to think of it, now that I've said it--he's Family Unfriendly, they're Family Friendly, but both have the same relationship with History: just Pure Aesthetic with no consideration for how the worldbuilding would work.

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reconstructwriter · 4 months ago

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The Untamed vs Game of Thrones/ASoIaF

Finished watching The Untamed and have to rant about it, especially to anyone tired of GRRM taking forever to finish the Winds of Winter or burned out after season eight. The Untamed /Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation has all joys of GoM/ASOIAF (fight scenes, back-stabbing, political drama, an overwhelming evil that threatens the world, medievalism inspired by history, fantasy, character deconstructions, incest, zombies, tragedy …okay it doesn’t have dragons per se but it does have a dragon turtle) It also straight up does everything better. Everything:

The Opening: Much like Indiana Jones movies are praised for having more action in the first five minutes than most action movies have in two hours, this opens up right in the middle of the most climatic, action-packed and heart-breaking scene of the whole show. Then the show jumps back and forth, leading up to the inevitable and then shows where you go from there. So, we start out with an inevitable horror – this person WILL die, that person WILL betray, etc. that not only can’t be prevented but that everyone is inevitably spiraling towards. At the same time, it opens in the middle so we’ve got the tension of ‘what will come in the aftermath of this’. Best of both.

Villains: We’ve got both the intrinsically evil and otherworldly threat and the very human people who have chosen evil. But unlike ASOIAF, there’s an interplay between the two in The Untamed. The Others are fundamentally outsiders with Caster alone assisting them by making sacrifices. Meanwhile in The Untamed, said intrinsic and otherworldly evil is very much intertwined with BOTH the villains AND the heroes. It’s power most covet and brings out their worst traits, it is a force our protagonist must struggle with both inwardly and outwardly.

Also the villains and heroes are very much distorted reflections of each other in a way that's very intriguing – especially Wei Wuxian and Xue Yang who are very similar in personality. Had things been different they could have BEEN each other in a way Jon Snow and Ramsey Snow really couldn’t. There’s also a depth to both. You can see why Wei Wuxian and Xue Yang walked the paths they did even if Xue Yang turned out so fucked up. While I can see why Jon Snow made his choices…we aren’t shown why Ramsey Snow became the way he was. He’s the cliché ‘well he was just born nasty’ that can be boring in a villain – especially one contrasted with the protagonist.

Characterization: Everyone! Xichen WISHES he had his head chopped off like Ned Stark. Wei Wuxian shows even rapidly moving waters can run deep (and hey if you wanna see someone get literally, repeatedly damned for doing the right thing…). Madame Yu is like Catalyn Stark if the latter was badass and went out like a boss (and also despite everything gave half a damn about Jon Snow). Jiang Cheng is a contradictory fit whose relationship with Wei Wuxian makes Jon Snow and Robb Stark’s relationship bland as store-bought white bread. I see your Robb Stark and Theon Greyjoy and raise you Xichen and Meng Yao. In general MXTX’s characters are deeper, richer, more real and satisfying than GRRM’s.

Fantasy: This is a Xanxia fantasy so there’s a lot more overt magic – not just magical creatures but most of the protagonists and antagonists have magic. And magic swords! Personalized magic swords almost like a blend of Valyrian Steel and lightsabers except these swords allow the wielder to fly so as much as I love my glowy swoosh swords these ones might win out on cool points.

Historical: … from what I've been told Xanxia fantasies are typically set in the real world so The Untamed is set in our China – just our China if cultivation were a real way to obtain magic and immortality. So, there’s A LOT of references to real historical medieval stuff here. And a lot of medieval horror. You got your punishments, including some augmented by magic. You've got torture, entire sects being wiped out and the horror of bride ghosts.

Backstabbery: Thinking back on it Game of Thrones/ASOIAF, for all that it’s a sack of backstabbing weasels, doesn’t have a lot of really wrenching betrayal. The closest is probably Theon going back to daddy instead of staying with his Robb, but even then that's a valid allegiance for him. Littlefinger has no reason beyond money to support Ned, we get little hints of familial betrayal (Ramsey murdering his brother) but nothing like The Untamed which has some horrible betrayals. I mean people who have been best friends/sworn blood oaths/etc. backstabbing. If MXTX wrote GoT Robert Baratheon would’ve been the one cutting Ned’s head off (which, honestly that’d have been more interesting).

It's a crying shame Game of Thrones/ASOIAF is more popular and it really shouldn’t be. Best of all The Untamed its free (on Viki) 😊

#the untamed #medieval fantasy #mxtx #rant #reconstructrants #word vomit #game of thrones #asoiaf #also mxtx doesn't have grrm's weirdness

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agentrouka-blog · 2 years ago

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Hello! I recently read ASOIAF again and I'vd noticed how much of an outcast Sansa actually is. Obviously we lack a lot of information of their past, but it seems to me that Sansa (as the Lady of Winferfell and oldest daughter) was deliberately seperated and raised as a "proper Lady" in comparison to her siblings (Robb seems to be close to everyone). I also read Hamlet recently and noticed a lot of similarities between Ophelia and Sansa. Do you think that Sansa was based off of Ophelia to some degree?

Hi anon!

Sansa does seem isolated from her siblings to an extend, though some of that may be exaggerated through POV sequence (viewed from Arya's perspective) and timing (we only get her POV once she actually is isolated on the road to Kingslanding). She expresses disappointment that her sister doesn't share any of her interests, because "normally" Arya would have been raised right alongside her older sister to be a proper lady - she simply tried to wriggle out of it constantly to enter the world of the boys - and literally everywhere else in the castle, as "Arya Underfoot". Sansa considers Jeyne Poole her closest friend, partially as a replacement of her "unsatisfactory" sister.

On the subject of Shakespeare and Ophelia, I'd say that not only is GRRM a Shakespeare fan (and sprinkles references to his works into the books), but there is also a direct line to GRRM's aesthetic attraction to the 19th century romanticism and preoccupation with an idealised medieval imagery, which in turn translates to one of the most famous depictions of Ophelia being from the pre-Raphaelite movement. If you get Ophelia vibes, it's not an accident, but it may be related to a general aesthetic as much as it may be a direct reference. A lot of that romanticism and the medieval origins of "romance" is expressed through Sansa. There are a number of lovely posts examining this in much more depth. I'd point you to the meta masterlist by @cappymightwrite and to this wonderful post by @butterflies-dragons and another one specifically about the influence of Ivanhoe. (Wait, where is YOUR masterlist? I thought you had one?) as well as the meta masterlist by @fedonciadale who also examines historical and literary influences. Then there is also the wonderful @that-plo-koon who is a big Shakespeare nerd fan. Doubtlessly, I am once again forgetting seminal works of meta and influential posts, so if anyone else has something to add here, I would be immensely grateful!

#sansa stark #grrm #shakespeare #romanticism #ophelia #literary references

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kellyvela · 3 years ago

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I, CLAUDIUS / GRRM / ASOIAF

GRRM about the best TV series of all time:

Question: Name the best television series of all time, and explain why it's the best. GRRM: This is a tough question. I have liked a lot of television through the years, and of course I have to exclude the programs I've worked on myself (e.g. Twilight Zone, Beauty and the Beast). I was very impressed with Rome on HBO; I found it riveting, both brilliantly written and brilliantly acted. I am interested in ancient Rome so another contender would be I, Claudius, produced by the BBC, that aired on public television three decades ago (1977). It was produced on sound stages so it hasn't got nearly the HBO production value, but again the writing was superlative, as was the acting, so it holds up today.

GRRM when HBO's ROME ended:

I am going to have to watch all of I, CLAUDIUS again to get the taste out of my mouth. Pfui.

GRRM about Tiberius and Stannis:

grrm Re: No actors named Bart that I could see playing a role in GoT Damn! I hadn't known that.

Baker was one of the unsung heroes of I, CLAUDIUS. Derek Jacobi and Sian Phillips got an incredible amount of praise for their portrayals of Claudius and Livia, deservedly, while Brian Blessed and John Hurt were already well-established and well recognized, but I never felt Baker got nearly enough attention for his Tiberius… a thankless role, since the character was so unlikeable, but one that he performed brilliantly.

There's a lot of his Tiberius in my Stannis, fwiw.

GRRM (again) about Tiberius and Stannis:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

GRRM about a possible HBO's adaptation of I, Claudius:

sourbillytipton You're reportedly new HBO contract Is there anymore light you could shed on it?

With the report saying you'll help produce other projects many fans hope for adaptations of Robert's Rebellion, D&E, Tuf, Sandkings…

I doubt any of those mentioned will be produced anytime soon. My money is on you lending a hand on the new I, Claudius mini series.

grrm Re: You're reportedly new HBO contract Tuf would be fun. Dunk and Egg are being discussed. Robert's Rebellion is part of Ice & Fire, won't be a separate series. Sandkings was done by the OUTER LIMITS; I retain feature film rights, but television rights are gone.

I, CLAVDIVS? Heh, not likely. And talk about a suicide mission. I mean, I'll watch, but how do you match one of the greatest TV series ever made? That's the television equivilent of remaking GONE WITH THE WIND or CITIZEN KANE. No, thanks.

GRRM when asked about reading recommendations:

The books [Maurice Druon's THE ACCURSED KINGS] were a huge success in France. So huge than they have twice formed the basis for television shows (neither version is available dubbed or subtitled in English, to my annoyance), series that one sometimes hears referred to as “the French I, CLAUDIUS.”

GRRM about being influenced by Robert Graves's I, Claudius:

Question: So you’ve talked a lot about the historical novels that you’ve drawn on. Are you influenced by Robert Graves’ I, Claudius?

GRRM: To some extent. I read I, Claudius and Claudius the God many, many years ago. And of course, I loved the TV series. I think the TV series is one of the best series ever done. There’s talk [that] HBO may be re-doing that. That’s a dangerous idea.

GRRM (again) about a possible HBO's adaptation of I, Claudius:

Question: It seems like HBO’s development is very slow. They put things in development and it takes a long time.

GRRM: They do, but they don’t develop nearly as much as the broadcast networks, who typically order 20 drama pilot scripts, will make 10 of the 20 scripts, will actually film them, have 10 pilots and put three shows on. HBO doesn’t do that. When they develop something, they’re pretty serious about it. And they have some interesting shows in development. American Gods would be cool. And if they do remake I, Claudius, that’s a tough one to tackle, though, because the original was just so great. How do you equal a cast with Derek Jacobi and John Hurt and Brian Blessed and Xiân Phillips? Wow, what a cast.

HBO could go further, obviously, because I, Claudius was a BBC production. It was made for a dollar fifty. The sets are painted canvas. You could see marble columns flapping when someone walks by them too fast. They were just a painting. You didn’t care. It was a landmark kind of thing. Special effects are nice, but it’s the writing, acting, and storytelling that make a story great. And the dialogue and the characters, and it’s a brilliant, brilliant show.

GRRM about Suetonius and Mushroom:

The narrative unreliability is reminiscent of Westeros’s first tell-all author, the court jester Mushroom, who claims intimate knowledge of various Targaryen bedroom secrets. “And he may be making up a lot of this shit,” Martin said. “That possibility is there, because he’s an old guy telling tales, and embroidering them, making them more sexual, suggestive, and violent.” Martin likens Mushroom to Suetonius, “the great gossip of ancient Rome,” whose stories helped shape I, Claudius. “It’s full of things like [Claudius’s third wife] Messalina having a fucking contest with a prostitute, and there’s no source for that! Unless you believe Suetonius,” Martin said. “People do know things, but the things they ‘know’ may not be right.”

GRRM about re-watching I, Claudius during the COVID - 19 pandemic:

The BBC made their adaptation of I, CLAUDIUS — based on the classic novels by Robert Graves (I, CLAUDIUS and CLAUDIUS THE GOD), which were in turn based on the histories of Suetonius — in 1976, but I did not encounter them until a few years later, when PBS picked them up and ran them (in a somewhat censored form, to shield Americans from seeing nipples) in the USA. I remember, I was still living in Dubuque, Iowa at the time, teaching college. I loved the series then, and I love it now. I have probably watched it a dozen times in the years since. When it was rerun on TV at first, then later on VHS tape, and most recently on DVD.

I just finished watching it again. Up in my mountain cabin, I discovered that my assistant had never seen the series, so of course I had to break it out and show it to her. It is just as brilliant as I recall. I am pleased to say my assistant, seeing it for the first time, loved it just as I did, seeing it for the… I don’t know, the tenth time? Twentieth? I have not kept count.

This despite the fact that the budget for BBC drama in the 70s was… let us say… not large. There are no special effects here. No battles. No exteriors, in fact. It was all shot on a sound stage, and most of it takes place in one or two rooms, repeatedly redressed. When these Romans go to the arena for a gladiatorial show, you do not so much as glimpse a gladiator, you just see the actors sitting watching carnage offstage. This is not HBO’s ROME nor even SPARTACUS (both great shows in their own right). I, CLAUDIUS is more akin to a filmed stage play. I think the craft services budget on any HBO series is probably ten times what the BBC spent on the entire thirteen episodes.

And you know what? IT DOES NOT MATTER. If you have great writing and great acting, that is really all you need. And I, CLAUDIUS had that in spades. A single writer, Jack Pulman, scripted all thirteen episodes. Pulman is long deceased, I fear, which I regret. I would have considered it an honor to meet him and shake his hand. His dialogue sparkles from beginning to end, with so many unforgettable lines… and throughout he remains true to the genius of Robert Graves and his great novels.

And the acting here is equal to the brilliance of the writing. This was the series that made Derek Jacobi a star, and rightly so, but the supporting cast around him was sensational as well. Sian Phillips as Livia, Brian Blessed as Augustus, John Hurt as Caligula, the criminally underappreciated George Baker as Tiberius, Patrick Stewart (with hair!) as Sejanus, and more, and more, and more…. there’s not a false note here. They were all great.

And yes, from time to time a marble pillar ripples when someone passes, revealing itself to be painted canvas, but so what? If you are like me, you are too deeply involved with the characters to notice or care.

If you have never seen I, CLAUDIUS, you owe it to yourself to have a look (though be warned, this a dark show, and there is lots of violence and sex, especially by the standards of 1976). You should read the novels too, they are terrific. And then give thanks you do not live in ancient Rome.

Even now, deep in the Second Golden Age of television, I would rank I, CLAUDIUS as one of the greatest television series ever made. Certainly in the top ten. Probably in the top five.

Most of the ASOIAF fandom:

GRRM: I dunno if any of you, if you guys have ever seen I, Claudius, have you seen I, Claudius?

GOO: No.

GRRM: Oh, you should see I, Claudius. It's one of the great television series of all time, one of my favorites.

GOO: What is it about? [DAMNATION!!! DISGRACE!!!]

GRRM graciously lecturing most of the ASOIAF fandom about I, Claudius:

It's about Claudius, the Emperor Claudius, it's based on two novels by Robert Graves, which were called I, Claudius and Claudius the God. Claudius was, let's see, he was the fourth Roman emperor, I think, but he lived through the reigns of the first three, and he was disabled in some manner, he had a limp, he twitched, he stuttered and everybody thought he was an idiot in his family, and at a certain point, he started even, according to Graves and some historians, exaggerating his idiocy, because meanwhile everybody else was competing for power and all his relatives were murdering each other and poisoning each other and stabbing each other, so he managed to survive and become emperor, and Graves wrote these two great novels about them, which I recommend. And in the '70s, the BBC adapted them to a 13 hour series called I, Claudius. Now it it was a BBC show, not an American network show, so their budgets are significantly less anyway, and it was the '70s, so these shows were made for a dollar and 95 each, there are no special effects, there are no, in fact, the entire show was filmed in like three rooms, and, you know, when Claudius goes to a gladiator show, you never see any gladiator, you just see him sitting and his face reacting to, and, you know, things like that. Um, occasionally some of the marble pillars will ripple as he walks by because they were actually painted canvas. Can you forgive that? Sadly I found that there's some modern viewers and fans who can't, but I certainly could, and it's brilliantly written and brilliantly acted it's it made Derek Jacoby a star. It includes Patrick Stewart with hair in a minor role and a very young John Hurt and things like that. And it captures all of, you know, all of the reign of Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and of course, Augustus's wife, Livia, who is portrayed very…you know, she's like a smarter version of Cersei... Umm but it's a great show, but the point is, it's framed, because when you come into the show, you see the old Claudius, he's emperor now, he's in his old age, but he's writing the secret history of his family to pass down the real story of what happened, and, you know, he opens every episode writing it and then you see the flashback, you see the episode. So all of the episodes are framed by old Claudius, actually the first two, I think, he's not even born yet, but old Claudius was writing about that.

It's not a novelty that GRRM loves historical novels and dramas and his love for I Claudius (the BBC show and the Graves's novels and even Suetonius's gossip stories) it's the perfect example.

And if most of the ASOIAF fandom paid more attention to that love, they would have asked George more about I, Claudius (show, novels and Suetonius's gossip stories) and how they inspired some ASOIAF characters, events and plots; or read and watch I, Claudius (show, novels and Suetonius's gossip stories) to see for themselves what George took from those and made it into ASOIAF.

This post is nothing new, some readers have posted about I, Claudius and ASOIAF similarities before, but (as always) there's a lot of things that they missed and/or interpreted differently.

So here I'm going to show you some more of what most of the ASOIAF fandom is missing because they don't pay attention to what GRRM is always saying and recommending....

TITLES

Claudius wasn't there to bore you with all his many titles:

I, TIBERIUS CLAUDIUS DRUSUS NERO GERMANICUS This-that-and-the-other (for I shall not trouble you yet with all my titles)...

—I, Claudius (Chapter 1) - Robert Graves

No comments needed (or read this post).

UNTHOUGHT MONARCH

Two years have gone by since I finished writing the long story of how I, Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus, the cripple, the stammerer, the fool of the family, whom none of his ambitious and bloody-minded relatives considered worth the trouble of executing, poisoning, forcing to suicide, banishing to a desert island or starving to death – which was how they one by one got rid of each other – how I survived them all, even my insane nephew Gaius Caligula, and was one day unexpectedly acclaimed Emperor by the corporals and sergeants of the Palace Guard.

—Claudius the God (Chapter 1) - Robert Graves

Sounds familiar??? Here's is a hint of Bran the Broken everyone, and this is only a little one, the HUGE one comes later.

I know, I know, most readers that have written about I Claudius and ASOIAF think that Claudius is most similar to Tyrion, because they are both disabled but clever people, despised by members of their families, lost first love, prostitute lover, betrayed by a wife/lover, etc.

And I agree, but GRRM doesn't take from original sources and make exactly the same into ASOIAF, he changes and mixes characters, events and plots.

And that's why I find in I, Claudius (show and novels) a really huge hint to Bran Stark becoming the unthought ruler of Westeros. But, as I just said, that comes later.

BROTHER AND SISTER INCEST

Caligula: [coughs] Agrippina: Caligula, darling, what are you doing out of bed? Caligula: I've had a bad dream, Mother. Agrippina: Oh, my poor baby. Come here. What did you dream? Caligula: Horrid dream. I dreamt there were bats sitting along the shelf in my room. Then they flew down and sat on me until I was all covered with them and no one could see me anymore. Agrippina: Oh, my poor baby. Antonia: You shouldn't eat so much before you go to bed. Agrippina: Oh, Mother, he's been through so much! Antonia: He stuffs himself with all manner of things. Claudius: Perhaps he'd like to sleep with Drusillus? He'd be company for him. Agrippina: Would you like that darling? Would you like to sleep with your cousin's room? Caligula: I'd rather sleep with Drusilla. Antonia: Drusilla? Your sister? A boy of your age? What is the world coming to? Agrippina: Oh, he doesn't mean anything by it.

—I, Claudius - Episode 6 - Scene 3 "Foul Play"

Caligula: No! Let go of me! Let go of me, you horrid old German woman! Claudius: What's this? Caligula: I hate you! Claudius: What's the matter? Antonia: He is disgusting! Claudius: What has he done? Antonia: Oh! Claudius: What has he done? Antonia: That child is a monster! Caligula: I'm not, you horrid old German woman! I'll burn your German house down! Claudius: Stop it! Stop it! Come here! Come here! Now, what is all this G-German? Antonia: He calls everything German that he doesn't like it. He is a monster. Claudius: Well, what has he done? Antonia: He knows what he's done! Caligula: I didn't do anything! I didn't! I didn't! Honestly, Uncle Claudius. I didn't do anything, I swear. It was only a game. Antonia: I found him in Drusilla's bed. Naked, the pair of them! He is revolting and so is she. I've locked her in her room! Caligula: Well, Mother… Antonia: You're a blockhead if you believe his lies! Claudius: Where are you taking him? Antonia: To the cellar to lock him in. Caligula: Please don't let her take me. Please Uncle Claudius. I hate the cellar. I'm afraid. Claudius: Well, you leave him here with me. I'll t-t-talk to him. Antonia: He needs a good whipping, not a talking to! Oh, Claudius, you're such a fool! I've no patience with you. It should have been you who died, not Germanicus! What use are you to anyone? Claudius: Now, don't you know that you sh-shouldn't play games like that with your sister? Hmmm? Don't you know how w-wicked it is? Caligula: Why? Claudius: Why? B-because it is. Caligula: Why? Claudius: Now, now look, don't answer me back or I'll cut you on the head! Now, you listen to me. Now, a sister is a sister and she's not to be p-p-played with, ever, do you understand? You can't p-p-play with her and you can't m-marry her. Caligula: But she wanted to… Claudius: I don't care what she wanted! You're disgusting, the pair of you. And I shall talk to Dr-Drusilla later.

—I, Claudius - Episode 6 - Scene 3 "The Trial"

Sounds familiar???

He could never bear to be long apart from his twin. Even as children, they would creep into each other's beds and sleep with their arms entwined. Even in the womb. Long before his sister's flowering or the advent of his own manhood, they had seen mares and stallions in the fields and dogs and bitches in the kennels and played at doing the same. Once their mother's maid had caught them at it . . . he did not recall just what they had been doing, but whatever it was had horrified Lady Joanna. She'd sent the maid away, moved Jaime's bedchamber to the other side of Casterly Rock, set a guard outside Cersei's, and told them that they must never do that again or she would have no choice but to tell their lord father. They need not have feared, though. It was not long after that she died birthing Tyrion. Jaime barely remembered what his mother had looked like. —A Storm of Swords - Jaime III

HEIGHT DIFFERENCE WEDDING

When I watch the scene of Claudius and Urgulanilla's wedding, I immediately thought about Sansa and Tyrion's wedding.

The I, Claudius scene has no dialogue except for Livia's final line. Claudius enters to the ceremony, salutes to the bride's family and then to Augustus and Livia, then seats next to the bride and holds her hand.

Then the priest signals the bride and groom to stand and:

Urgulanilla: [stands]Livia: [crowd laughs] She grew! She just kept on growing! —I, Claudius - Episode 4 - Scene 7 "Keep playing the Fool"

Urgulanilla was indeed very tall, but her appearance is closer to Brienne than Sansa:

Urgulanilla was – well, in brief, she lived up to her name, which is the Latin form of Herculanilla. A young female Hercules she indeed was. Though only fifteen years old, she was over six foot three inches in height and still growing, and broad and strong in proportion, with the largest feet and hands I have ever seen on any human being in my life with the single exception of the gigantic Parthian hostage who walked in a certain triumphal procession many years later. Her features were regular but heavy and she wore an almost perpetual scowl.

—Claudius the God (Chapter 8) - Robert Graves

Back to the wedding, something very similar happens in ASOIAF with the bride and groom height difference and the crowd laughing about it:

The dwarf tugged at her a third time. Stubbornly she pressed her lips together and pretended not to notice. Someone behind them tittered. The queen, she thought, but it didn't matter. They were all laughing by then, Joffrey the loudest. "Dontos, down on your hands and knees," the king commanded. "My uncle needs a boost to climb his bride." —A Storm of Swords - Sansa III

TRUST NO ONE

Now farewell for the last time, Tiberius Claudius, my friend whom I love more truly than you ever supposed. Farewell, little Marmoset, my schoolfellow, and trust nobody, for nobody about you is worthy of your trust.

—Claudius the God (Chapter 23) - Robert Graves

Herod: Listen, Claudius. Let me give you a piece of advice.

Claudius: Oh, I thought you'd finished with advice.

Herod: One last piece and then I'm done. Trust no one, my friend, no one. Not your most grateful freedman, not your most intimate friend, not your dearest child, not the wife of your bosom. Trust no one.

Claudius: No one? Not even you?

—I, Claudius - Episode 11 - Scene 4 "Advice From an Old Friend"

"Lord Petyr," Ned called after him. "I … am grateful for your help. Perhaps I was wrong to distrust you." Littlefinger fingered his small pointed beard. "You are slow to learn, Lord Eddard. Distrusting me was the wisest thing you've done since you climbed down off your horse." —A Game of Thrones - Eddard V

Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen. You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time.

—A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

"Say what you want. She will be my bride, Lord Connington will see to it. I trust him as much as if he were my own blood." "Perhaps you should be the fool instead of me. Trust no one, my prince. Not your chainless maester, not your false father, not the gallant Duck nor the lovely Lemore nor these other fine friends who grew you from a bean. Above all, trust not the cheesemonger, nor the Spider, nor this little dragon queen you mean to marry. All that mistrust will sour your stomach and keep you awake by night, 'tis true, but better that than the long sleep that does not end." —A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

TYWIN, JOANNA, IS THAT YOU?

Augustus ruled the world, but Livia ruled Augustus. And I must here explain the remarkable hold that she had over him.

—Claudius the God (Chapter 2) - Robert Graves

Narrator Claudius: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, old friend and commander of the armies of Augustus. Emperor of Rome, a most remarkable man. But even more remarkable who was Livia, his second wife. If Augustus ruled the world, Livia ruled Augustus.

—I, Claudius - Episode 1 - Scene 2 "Dinner Conversation"

His mother had died giving him birth, so the Martells would have found the Rock deep in mourning. His father especially. Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys's Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. —A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

TARGIES, IS THAT YOU?

Livia was of the Claudian family, one of the most ancient of Rome, and so was my grandfather. There is a popular ballad, still sometimes sung by old people, of which the refrain is that the Claudian tree bears two sorts of fruit, the sweet apple and the crab, but that the crabs outnumber the apples.

—I, Claudius (Chapter 2) - Robert Graves

Tiberius: I'll tell you something, Drusus. Sometimes I so hate myself, I can't bear the thought of me anymore. You don't know anything about darkness, do you? Inside darkness. Blackness. Drusus: Ah, stop bragging! I could match you black for black. Tiberius: Not you. Not you. The say the tree of the Claudians produces two kinds of apples - the sweet and the sour. That was never more true than you and me. Drusus: And what of our mother, which is she? Tiberius: Livia? Drusus: Mmm. Tiberius: They say a snake bit her once and died. Drusus: Hey. Hey, that's no longer funny.

—I, Claudius - Episode 2 - Scene 2 "Siblings Rivalries"

"Why ask for truth," Ser Barristan said softly, "if you close your ears to it?" He hesitated, then continued. "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . ." ". . . my father's daughter?" If she was not her father's daughter, who was she? ". . . mad," he finished. "But I see no taint in you." "Taint?" Dany bristled. "I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land." —A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

STANNIS, IS THAT YOU?

He was a tall, dark-haired, fair-skinned, heavily-built man with a magnificent pair of shoulders, and hands so strong that he could crack a walnut (…) He went bald early in life except at the back of his head, where he grew his hair long, a fashion of the ancient nobility. He was never ill. Tiberius, unpopular as he was in Roman society, was nevertheless an extremely successful general. He revived various ancient disciplinary severities, but since he did not spare himself when on campaign, seldom sleeping in a tent, eating and drinking no better than the men, and always charging at their head in battle, they preferred to serve under him than under some good-humoured, easy-going commander in whose leadership they did not have the same confidence. Tiberius never gave his men a smile or a word of praise, and often overmarched and overworked them. ‘Let them hate me,’ he once said, ‘so long as they obey me.’ He kept the colonels and regimental officers in as strict order as the men, so there were no complaints of his partiality. Service under Tiberius was not unprofitable: he usually contrived to capture and sack the enemy’s camps and cities. He fought successful wars in Armenia, Parthia, Germany, Spain, Dalmatia, the Alps, and France.

—I, Claudius (Chapter 3) - Robert Graves

Tiberius: Well, don't bother on my account! I'm sick of it! The gods know I've done my best! He never liked me. Never! Thirty years I've run his errands for him! I've fought on his bloody frontiers, collected his taxes! He's never once put his hand on my arm and said, "Thank you. What would I have done without you?" Now he sends me off to Illyricum and he doesn't even plan a farewell dinner. Not even a goodbye. Just get on your horse and ride! Well, damn him! I retired before and I can retire again! Let his precious grandson run his empire for him. I'm sick to death of it!

—I, Claudius - Episode 5 - Scene 4 "False Pretenses"

Stannis Baratheon, Lord of Dragonstone and by the grace of the gods rightful heir to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, was broad of shoulder and sinewy of limb, with a tightness to his face and flesh that spoke of leather cured in the sun until it was as tough as steel. Hard was the word men used when they spoke of Stannis, and hard he was. Though he was not yet five-and-thirty, only a fringe of thin black hair remained on his head, circling behind his ears like the shadow of a crown. His brother, the late King Robert, had grown a beard in his final years. Maester Cressen had never seen it, but they said it was a wild thing, thick and fierce. As if in answer, Stannis kept his own whiskers cropped tight and short. They lay like a blue-black shadow across his square jaw and the bony hollows of his cheeks. His eyes were open wounds beneath his heavy brows, a blue as dark as the sea by night. His mouth would have given despair to even the drollest of fools; it was a mouth made for frowns and scowls and sharply worded commands, all thin pale lips and clenched muscles, a mouth that had forgotten how to smile and had never known how to laugh. Sometimes when the world grew very still and silent of a night, Maester Cressen fancied he could hear Lord Stannis grinding his teeth half a castle away. (...) "Why should I avenge Eddard Stark? The man was nothing to me. Oh, Robert loved him, to be sure. Loved him as a brother, how often did I hear that? I was his brother, not Ned Stark, but you would never have known it by the way he treated me. I held Storm's End for him, watching good men starve while Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne feasted within sight of my walls. Did Robert thank me? No. He thanked Stark, for lifting the siege when we were down to rats and radishes. I built a fleet at Robert's command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it. I sat on his council for fifteen years, helping Jon Arryn rule his realm while Robert drank and whored, but when Jon died, did my brother name me his Hand? No, he went galloping off to his dear friend Ned Stark, and offered him the honor. And small good it did either of them." —A Clash of Kings - Prologue

A SIGN FROM THE GODS

When I watch the scene of Claudius catching the wolf pup from the sky, I immediately thought about Bran and Summer.

The I, Claudius scene is called "A sign from the Gods"

Germanicus: Eagles. What are they fighting for? Julia: Here come the children. Let's go into the house. It sounds as if they've been quarrelling again and I don't think I could stand it. Germanicus: Eagles! They're fighting! Postumus, look at the eagles! Agrippina: What are they fighting for? Castor: Oh look. One of them's got something! See, in its claws there. It's a small animal, [screeching overhead] Agrippina: Mother, Mother, the eagles are fighting! Castor: They're fighting over something. Look out! Livilla: What is it, Claudius? Castor: It's a wolf cub. Germanicus: Mother, it dropped right from its claws. Livilla: Let me have him! Let me have him! Antonia: Leave it be! It fell to Claudius, leave it be! Julia: Look at the blood. Ye Gods, what does it mean? Domitius, tell us what it means. Domitius: Lady, I… Antonia: You know what it means, I can see from your face. Tell us, I beg you. Children, go into the house. Domitius: No! Let them stay. The sign was given to you all, and given now, perhaps, because I am here to read it. But they must be sworn to secrecy. Who are the gods that watch over this house? Julia: Jupiter and Mars. Domitius: Then do you swear, all of you, by these your gods…that no word of what you are about to hear shall ever pass your lips? [all]: Yes, we do. Domitius: The wolf cub is Rome. No doubt of it. Romulus was suckled by a wolf as her own cub, and Romulus was Rome. And look at it. All torn about the neck and shivering with fear. A wretched sight. Rome will be wretched one day. But he will protect it. He and no other. Livilla: [laughs] Claudius as protector of Rome! I hope I shall be dead by then. Antonia: Go to your room! You shall have nothing to eat for the rest of the day! Julia: Children, come in. Come inside. Claudius: May I k-k-keep the cub, please, Mother? Please may I?

—I, Claudius - Episode 3 - Scene 2 "A sign from the Gods"

In the novel the scene is basically the same, but it provides more important details:

One extraordinary event in my childhood I must not forget to record. One summer when I was just eight years old my mother, my brother Germanicus, my sister Livilla, and I were visiting my Aunt Julia in a beautiful country-house close to the sea at Antium. It was about six o’clock in the evening and we were out taking the cool breeze in a vineyard. Julia was not with us, but Tiberius’s son – that Tiberius Drusus whom we afterwards always called ‘Castor’ – and Postumus and Agrippina, Julia’s children, were in the party. Suddenly we heard a great screeching above us. We looked up and saw a number of eagles fighting. Feathers floated down. We tried to catch them. Germanicus and Castor each caught one before it fell and stuck it in his hair. Castor had a small wing feather, but Germanicus a splendid one from the tail. Both were stained with blood. Spots of blood fell on Postumus’s upturned face and on the dresses of Livilla and Agrippina. And then something dark dropped through the air. I do not know why I did so, but I put out a fold of my gown and caught it. It was a tiny wolf-cub wounded and terrified. The eagles came swooping down to retrieve it, but I had it safe hidden, and when we shouted and threw sticks they rose baffled and flew screaming off. I was embarrassed. I didn’t want the cub. Livilla grabbed at it, but my mother, who looked very grave, made her give it back to me. ‘It fell to Claudius,’ she said. ‘He must keep it.’ She asked an old nobleman, a member of the College of Augurs, who was with us, ‘Tell me what this portends.’ The old man answered, ‘How can I say? It may be of great significance or none.’ ‘Don’t be afraid. Say what it seems to mean to you.’ ‘First send the children away,’ he said. I do not know whether he gave her the interpretation which, when you have read my story, will be forced on you as the only possible one. All I know is that while we other children kept our distance – dear Germanicus had found another tail-feather for me, sticking in a hawthorn bush, and I was putting it proudly in my hair – Livilla crept up inquisitively behind a rose-hedge and overheard something. She interrupted, laughing noisily: ‘Wretched Rome, with him as her protector! I hope to God I’ll be dead before then!’The Augur turned on her and pointed with his finger. ‘Impudent girl,’ he said, “God will no doubt grant your wish in a way that you won’t like!”

—I, Claudius (Chapter 5) - Robert Graves

An disabled eight year old boy got a wolf pup that fell from the sky free from two eagles that were fighting for him, an event that was considered a sign from the gods, a portent about the boy becoming the forth Roman Emperor, the Protector of Rome???

Tell me if this is not very similar to Bran and his brothers finding the direwolves next to their dead mother and keeping them as pets, pets that are considered a gift from the old gods, a portent about the children becoming monarchs, at least some of them, like Robb, Jon, Bran and Sansa???

But the similarities between Claudius and Bran are the most prominent:

Similar age: Claudius 8 / Bran 7.

Prophecies: Claudius was prophesied to be the fourth Roman Emperor / Bran was prophesied to be the Three Eyed Raven.

Wolves: Claudius got a wolf pup from the sky, the wolf was an important symbol of Rome (The Capitoline Wolf nursed Romulus and Remus) / Bran got a direwolf from the old gods, the direwolf was the sigil of House Stark.

Disability: Claudius got a permanent limp, after suffering infantile paralysis that shortened his left leg / Bran got paralyzed from the waist down after his fall.

Hurtful nicknames: Claudius was known as the Cripple / Bran hates being called cripple and according to the show he will be known as Bran the Broken.

Especial transport: Claudius was usually carried in a sedan-chair / Bran was usually carried by Hodor.

Lost older brother: Claudius lost his beloved older brother Germanicus / Bran lost his beloved older bother Robb.

First Love: Claudius first love was Medullina Camilla. Among the Etruscans “Camilla” is what they call the young hunting priestesses dedicated to Diana (the Huntress) / Bran's first love was Meera Reed, a fine huntress and fisher, a fighter with net and spear.

Compared to monkeys: Claudius was called "marmoset" by his few friends / Jon remembers Bran clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey.

Survivors: Claudius nearly died on several occasions / Bran survive his fall.

Unthought monarchs: Claudius, despite all odds, became the fourth Roman Emperor / Bran will become King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Builders: Claudius built many roads, aqueducts and canals / Bran was named after his famous ancestor Bran the Builder, and as a monarch he will be able to emulate his renowned ancestor.

There you have it!

All hail Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus and Brandon of House Stark!

#grrm #asoiaf #i claudius #robert graves #bran stark #tiberius claudius drusus nero germanicus

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a-secret-bolton-vampire · 4 years ago

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Thinking about the queer characters in ASOIAF. There's a few in the main series, like Loras, Renly, Taena, Nymeria, Lyn, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. I sort of wish there were more queer women in the story. Dany and Cersei have same gender relations but it's ambiguous as to if they are bi or not (I like to headcanon them as bi but that's just me). We have mention of Nymeria being "abed with the Fowler twins".

Fire & Blood had a lot of queer women; Rhaena, Elissa, Tyanna, Jeyne Arryn, Black Aly, Sabitha Vypren. It was pretty refreshing to see more visibility of queer women there, and I hope, even if my hopes for House of the Dragon aren't high, that they do a better job than Game of Thrones in that regard. I especially loved Rhaena and Elissa, they were both incredibly compelling and fascinating characters.

One area I think ASOIAF & GRRM could possibly improve on is trans representation. Of course Brienne, Cersei, and Arya come up as examples of gender non-comformity that could be seen as transgender identity, but they don't reject the concept of womanhood so much as gender roles. When we hear about MtF crossdressers in this universe, it's often not very flattering, and usually some sort of fetish or kink.

We have a Lannister monarch who was mocked as "Queen Lorea" and dressed in his wifes clothes when visiting the sex workers in the docks of Lannisport. Racallio Ryndoon was also said to have dressed in women's clothing, pretending to be a female prostitute, and was sometimes called "Queen Racallio", but given everything else we know about him (having fetishes with pregnant women and having his wives beat him), it seems like it's just another fetish of his.

We also have a sex worker in Braavos Arya reports on in ADWD called Canker Jeyne, who (at least in my mind) probably is trans, but again, it keeps on with this rather unflattering image that MtF people are all doing this as part of some fetish or satisfy other peoples fetishes. And in the case of Racallio, it's made to make them seem more "exotic" and "wild". Meanwhile for FtM crossdressers, it's mostly used as a disguise of sorts or a rejection of traditional femininity, rather than any sort of solid core identity.

We do, however, have the Jogos Nhai, who allow AMAB people to live as women, or AFAB people to live as men, to the point that they will shave their bodies and perform the tasks expected of the gender they are now living as. This is reminiscent to some historical societies, such as the galli priests of Rome, who worshipped Cybele and Attis, who were castrated, whore feminine clothing, and referred to themselves as women.

There are many other societies and cultures that, may not have had the concept of transgender identity, but definitely a less binary view of gender identity that could be seen as transgender. For instance, there is the concept of a third gender role in some Native American peoples, like the Navajo nadleehi and the Zuni lhamana. Regardless of culture, there were some historical figures who were transgender regardless of cultural traditions. The Roman Emperor Elagabalus was said to have delighted in being called a lady, dressed in women's clothing, and apparently went around asking people to perform sex reassignment surgery for a large sum of money. There is also Chevalier d'Eon, an intersex transgender woman who fought in the Seven years War, and lived as a woman for 33 years until her death.

The point of this being; there is a sorry lack of trans representation in ASOIAF, and it is mostly relegated to fetishes or kinks, which, as a trans woman, doesn't leave the best taste in my mouth. It doesn't make me hate the series at all, but it's a little disappointing as someone who would like to see themselves represented in a story they very much like.

This is why I have taken matters into my hands and decided to write an epic fantasy story with the main character being a trans woman partially inspired by Elagabalus.

#asoiaf meta #grrm criticism #lgbtq+#trans rights #queer representation #this has been on my mind and isn't intended to be a total attack against grrm i just thought i could post my personal view #i love elissa farman #and sabitha #and black aly

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goodqueenaly · 11 months ago

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since you clearly know your history, do you think aegon iv's situation with his mistresses while he was king was handled realistically? weren't official king's mistresses married off before taking on their positions because any bastard children sired needed a legal father? falena was married off but there's no mention of barba, melissa, or the other women after aegon iv ascended having husbands. i mean, obviously barba needed to be unwed so she could have a chance of becoming queen but if melissa wanted to establish herself as a non-grasping replacement, shouldn't she go get a husband so naerys, aemon, and daeron couldn't feel threatened? and even if melissa was a super nice person, how she could she remain "well-loved" at court while publicly having bastards and one of them is an albino? wouldn't her reputation be ruined if aegon iv dropped her and she remained unmarried after that?

I think the historical record is somewhat mixed on that point. Think of, for example, GRRM’s, ugh, favorite point of reference for Aegon IV, Henry VIII (yeah, I know): Bessie Blount was not married at the time she was in a relationship with the king (and conceived Henry Fitzroy with him), though she did marry after her son’s birth, while it’s entirely unclear when Mary Boleyn married relative to when she and Henry VIII had their relationship (and, of course, Henry offered to make Anne Boleyn his mistress while she was unmarried). Likewise, if we look to Charles II - another inspiration, I think, for Aegon IV, no less so because I tend to think he named Barba Bracken after Charles’ long-term mistress Barbara Villiers, Duchess of Cleveland - the record is far from one-sided: Barbara herself, for example, was married during their relationship of course, but the king’s two primary mistresses at the end of his life, Louise de Kerouaille and Nell Gwynn, were both unmarried for the whole of their lives (and as much as James Scott, Duke of Monmouth, Charles’ eldest extramarital son, might have claimed that Charles had married his mother, Lucy Walter, when the two were exiles in the Netherlands, Charles himself vehemently denied the supposed marriage, which had no evidence of its existence otherwise). Too, Louis XIV - not perhaps explicitly cited by GRRM as an inspiration for Aegon the Unworthy, but certainly a king famous for his love affairs - had both married and unmarried mistresses: while Louise de La Vallière was unmarried (and later ended her life as a repentant nun), the Marquise de Montespan did have a husband (who notoriously held a “funeral” for his wife after she became the king’s mistress); the widower King Louis did, almost certainly, end up marrying his last mistress, the similarly widowed Marquise de Maintenon. (There is also the story that when one of Louis’ early loves, Marie de Mancini, married her eventual husband, Prince Colonna, the prince was surprised to discover that his wife was a virgin, as he said he had not expected to find “innocence among the loves of kings”.) Again, these are only a very few, very limited examples, but I think it’s fair enough to say that GRRM could have felt, let’s say somewhat historically comforted by having Aegon IV’s mistresses be (mostly) unmarried women.

In any event, I don’t think it was a necessity that Melissa Blackwood be married in order for her to be seen as unthreatening to the queen. While the details of Melissa’s life, especially her time as Aegon’s mistress, are frustratingly thin and vague based on our current knowledge, it does seem that Melissa went out of her way to curry favor with Queen Naerys, Prince Daeron, and Prince Aemon - a step that Barba Bracken almost certainly never took, if she was looking to replace Naerys as queen (and perhaps have her son Aegor replace Daeron as heir). It is also worth pointing out, of course, that in the aftermath of Barba’s, and probably more generally Lord Bracken’s and his faction’s, failed attempt to have Barba marry the king, Melissa and whatever faction was supporting her may have emphasized that Melissa had no such ambitions in order to distinguish her from the disgraced former mistress. Additionally, the fact that Melissa did not have a son with the king until a few years after their relationship began may have also served as some reassurance to the queen, Prince Daeron, and Prince Aemon: not only, perhaps, did Melissa appear not to want to replace the queen, but she had no ready would-be heir, as Barba had had, to promote in place of Daeron and strengthen her ambition to create a new royal family.

Naturally, because we know nothing about why Melissa was sent away from court, or what happened to her after, we have no idea how her brief years as the king’s chief mistress affected her life or her socio-political prospects thereafter. I do tend to think that Melissa didn’t live a long life after leaving court, though when and how she might have died is obviously completely unclear. In any event, though, I could see where Melissa’s positive reputation, especially if she died relatively young, might have been preserved at court: the kind-hearted, widely beloved young woman, perhaps driven from the court by those no-good-very-bad Brackens who had then replaced her with a “faithless” mistress. Once King Daeron II came to the throne himself, the new king may have been even more inclined to think fondly of the woman who had treated himself and his late mother and uncle with respect and deference, where few if any other of his father’s mistresses had - “better this mistress than any other”, perhaps, to paraphrase the Queen of France on the subject of her husband’s beloved mistress, Madame de Pompadour. (Naturally as well, once Bloodraven came into power and influence, especially after the First Blackfyre Rebellion, he would likely have done much to promote the positive legend of his mother, especially in contrast to the surviving reputation of Barba Bracken - a legacy that I think will be central to the conflict of “The Village Hero”).

It’s also worth pointing out that while King Aegon’s identified chief mistresses after his ascension seem to have been unmarried young women, this is not to say that the king probably limited his sexual liaisons during his reign only to these individuals. After all, Yandel notes in his overview of Daeron II’s reign that during Aegon IV’s rule, the men of the City Watch of King’s Landing whom the king promoted “made sure that the brothels—and even the decent women of the city—were available for Aegon’s lusts”; I think it’s probably fair to say Yandel likely included “married” in his definition of “decent”. Moreover, while Yandel identified Jeyne Lothston as Aegon IV’s chief mistress after the downfall of Bethany Bracken, the maester-author also suggested that the king “enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed”, after Falena Lothston (nee Stokeworth) brought young Jeyne to court (a disturbing rumor, of course, when paired with the additional suggestion by Yandel that Jeyne had been fathered by the king, not Lord Lucas). I fully expect that when we learn more about Aegon IV’s reign (especially given the, ugh, high likelihood of even more unnecessary sexual exploits to be highlighted in Fire and Blood Volume 2), Aegon’s omnivorous sexual desire, including for married women, will be underlined.

#asoiaf meta #aegon iv targaryen #melissa blackwood #mistresses of aegon iv

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megashadowdragon · 4 years ago

Text

coldhands identity is brave danny flint

Could Coldhands be Brave Danny Flint? It sounds crackpot, and very likely is, but the more I thought about it the more it appealed to me. I've done a quick search, one or two people seem to have floated this before but it's never had much in-depth analysis. This is my first meta, so please be gentle and C&C welcome.

The Gender Agenda To start with, I'll start with the elephant in the room - Danny Flint was a girl, Coldhands is male. Or is he? Gilly, Meera, and Bran all refer to him as male, but they have no idea who he is, so would see Night's Watch clothes and assume. He wears a scarf over his face, and while they can see his eyes and that his face is pale, it took Bran's gang a decent amount of time to work out he was a walking corpse, so I'm not sure I trust them to figure out niceties like gender. Leaf's "They killed him long ago" is more of a problem - she's a colleague, she would probably know. My best defence is that maybe Children of the Forest don't do gender in the same way as humans? This feels like a reach, but we have had another magical species with sexual fluidity leading to trouble with pronouns in the series. Otherwise, Leaf tends to hang out in the cave, Coldhands can't get in, maybe they're just not that close. Finally, the main person to ask - Coldhands his or her self. The only other post I could see on reddit about this theory had someone respond with the quote "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals. His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk", but I'd point out this is in third person and a generalization - "a man", not "me, Coldhands, the man".

Okay, now I've convinced everyone my theory is terrible, let's get into the meat of it.

Hands cold as stone This was what got me into this rabbit hole in the first place - House Flint's sigil is "A grey stone hand upon a white inverted pall on paly black and grey". A stone hand would be pretty cold, right? In point of fact, when we first met Coldhands, the final line of the chapter describes "fingers hard as stone." On top of that, the white and black background seems to fit the Night's Watch blacks, pale face, black hands, white snow, etc.

Who the hell else could it be? This has always been the weird thing about Coldhands for me. Honestly, there's a very good chance this is a non mystery mystery, he's a zombie Night's watch ranger riding an elk, do we really need a secret identity? However, "who is Coldhands?" is one of the most commonly asked questions in the fandom, so let's assume it's getting an answer. We know: a) night's watch member b) killed a long time ago, as reckoned by a 200 year old, c) not Benjen. There are essentially 3 historical periods where we know any specifics about the Night's Watch: 1) the long night/age of heroes, 2) Targaryen era, 3) recent history. If we work through these backwards, we can pretty much rule out the recent era for not meeting the criteria of "killed a long time ago". The Targaryen era didn't have much Night's Watch drama, a few kings sent to the wall at Aegon's conquest, Raymun Redbeard's invasion is wall related but the whole point of that story is that the Night's Watch failed to really get involved... the only strong contender from this period is a mysterious magical Targaryen bastard who went to the wall and went missing... but he's the other mysterious good zombie wandering around up north. The long night has a lot of Night's Watch focus, but it was 10,000 years ago. Allowing for this being in-universe exaggeration, it's still ~2,000 years ago, and if Coldhands were that old, I'm not sure he'd be in elk-riding mutineer-killing form, or at least not look passably human to Bran and co. This rules out specific timeline characters, which leaves more folkloric characters like Danny Flint, who isn't associated to any one point in time. There's a song, and she's treated as a well-known tale, which implies a fairly long time, but overall could be whenever. This works for any of the folkloric Night's Watch characters, but the Rat King is already otherwise occupied with a different cannibalistic pseudo immortality, leaving Mad Axe, who does have the massacring fellow brothers down pat, but doesn't feel thematically right to me. This section really grew in the writing, but TL;DR - assuming Coldhands is someone we've heard of before, no specific historical figures seem to match up chronologically, leaving figures from folk tales and songs, which there are only so many of.

Mutineer Massacre For a character we've all obsessed over so much, it's easy to forget how little we've seen of Coldhands. His role in the story has effectively been "transport Sam and Gilly to the wall, transport Bran and co to Bloodraven, massacre the Night's Watch mutineers". Hold up, one of those things is not like the others. During his quest to get Bran to Bloodraven, to awake the messiah and save the world, Coldhands takes a break and makes a detour to kill the Night's Watch Mutineers from Crasters. This is explicitly noted to be something they slow down for, when time is critical. Admittedly, it secures the party some delicious Long Pork when supplies are low, but even in aDwD it seems like there are other ways to get meat than to hunt humans, besides which he kills not one but five mutineers. He claims it is because the mutineers are following them, but Meera points out they've been circling for days - it seems Coldhands deliberately sought the mutineers out. The brutality of the kills also suggests more than utilitarian pragmatism - there are entrails slung through branches and severed heads! All of this to say, Coldhands is deliberately shown as both a member of the Night's Watch, and willing/going out of his way to punish Night's Watch brothers who break their vows and harm their fellow brothers, something Danny Flint might take personally. Basically, it's a classic exploitation movie with an elk-riding zombie as the wronged woman hunting down wrongdoers. Someone call Tarantino to direct this.

A True Night's Watch One of the big themes GRRM loves is the idea that outsiders to an institution can be the truest embodiment of that institution - Dunk and Brienne are the truest Knights, Davos is the truest lord, the Manderlys are the most loyal northerners. Coldhands already seems to tie into this - the Night's Watch are tireless defenders from the Others and their Wights, so ironically the staunchest ranger is undead as well. It would only emphasise this theme if this ultimate Night's Watch ranger was someone who was barred from entry, had to sneak in, and was murdered by their brothers for not belonging. There also seems to be a thematic tie in that Danny Flint had to essentially infiltrate the Night's Watch and keep her cover in hostile terrain, much like Coldhands in the Others controlled north.

Bonding over being murdered by your brothers Coldhands has so far been very much one of Bran's cast, but it's worth noting characters can switch storylines, and we have someone else in the North who can soon relate to being a back-from-the-dead Night's Watchman fighting the Others - I'm hardly the first to note the Coldhands/Jon parallels, but Coldhands being another character who was murdered by the Night's Watch due to their conservatism and hatred of outsiders would add another layer.

Miscellany A couple of quotes I found while researching for this: “Did Mance ever sing of Brave Danny Flint?” “Not as I recall. Who was he?” (ADWD Jon XII) - Tormund and Jon talking, Tormund mistaking Danny Flint for a man, this feels like one of those throw-away lines GRRM likes to include to make a little double meaning once the truth is out, or just seeding the idea of mistaking Danny Flint for a man. “The ranger wore the black of the Night’s Watch, but what if he was not a man at all?" (ADWD Bran I) - again, I could see GRRM giggling as he typed that if this theory were true.

Conclusion Honestly, there is every chance this is absolute nonsense, and I've just lost it waiting for TWoW. I tend to lean towards Coldhands not having a big identity reveal, he's an undead ranger co-opted by Bloodraven and that's enough. However, if Coldhands is to have an identity reveal, I think Danny Flint deserves consideration: there aren't that many viable candidates, her story is emotionally intense enough and has been referred to often enough that a casual fan could be expected to go "oh!" instead of "...let me google that", and it would fit with existing themes of the story. The angle of Jon parallels even gives an opening for the reveal to be natural and facilitate character and thematic arcs, which is what I look for in a theory.

comment on reddit

Yeah, the Flint (of Flint's Finger) sigil literally being a Cold Hand is what sold me on this when I started looking into it. There's also some other intriguing textual stuff about it...

The weird thing about Danny Flint is that she is only mentioned three times in all of ASOIAF. Three! Bran recounts her tale in Bran IV, ASOS; Theon hears Wyman Manderly demand her song in The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD; and Jon discusses her tale with Tormund in Jon XII, ADWD.

This was kind of shocking to me. Danny Flint is a pretty recognizable name to, I’d figure, the majority of attentive readers. I thought she must have been mentioned before the third book, at least, but… nope. Her tale is first introduced to us in Bran IV, ASOS, the Nightfort chapter… Oh, what’s that? Wait, isn’t that… the very same Nightfort chapter where we first hear about Coldhands? (Well, no, actually, he appears at the end of Samwell III before that, but this is the first chapter where he is identified as Coldhands.) Chronologically, Sam meets Coldhands, Bran thinks about Danny Flint, and then Sam introduces Bran to Coldhands, in fairly quick succession.

So it seems GRRM came up with Danny Flint and Coldhands around the exact same time. Interesting. Danny Flint is then not mentioned again until ADWD, when the Coldhands mystery is developed further. Double interesting.

Also, the Bran chapter directly preceding the Nightfort chapter– our first introduction to Danny Flint– is the one where Meera tells him the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, another tale of a northern warrior woman dressing as a man and hiding her face in service of some greater goal. Stretch? Maybe.

And why would Coldhands' face be covered at all if there WASN'T some big reveal upcoming? What utility would that have? That scarf clearly seems like a setup for SOMETHING. He doesn't need it for warmth. He's likely hiding a face that would make him recognizable to Bran/Meera/Jojen (and the readers), but died long ago... the only way that reveal could work without a ton of laborious exposition is if he took off the scarf and it was obviously a 'female' face, making it obviously Danny. It also seems likely Coldhands will interact with at least Bran and Meera again, both of whom are somewhat connected to Danny Flint’s story– Bran via his love of stories and legends, and Meera via the breaking of gender roles. So there's thematic levels to it as well.

source www . reddit . com/r/asoiaf/comments/llwm8m/coldhands_identity_spoilers_extended/

#asoiaf #A Song of Ice and Fire #asoiaf theories #asoiaf theory #asoiaf coldhands #danny flint

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horizon-verizon · 2 years ago

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It's kinda weird how some green stans call Rhaegar an evil racist for falling in love with Northern Lyanna instead of Dornish Elia but then cackle with glee over the idea of Jace in the show ditching Baela, played by a black actress, for Sara Snow who is probably someone Mushroom pulled outta his ass and might be played by a white actress if she even exists in the show.

Anon, thanks, but logic is not welcome here in the HotD fandom.

@ozymalek make some points about who the Dornish are made up of HERE:

grrm gives the following inspirations for dorne:

wales (historical influence more than cultural or ethnic)

spain and palestine (in terms of climate)

moor-influenced spain (ethnicity; rhoynar influence on the region paralleling that of moors)

therefore, dorne is spain, and the rhoynar are the closest functional equivalent to the moors. dornishmen are andals with rhoynar influences, much like spaniards are europeans with moorish influence.

I mean, can you believe?!

And the quote you refer to in Fire and Blood is HERE.

#asoiaf asks to me #hotd comment #hotd critical #mushroom #mushroom asoiaf #mushroom fire and blood #asoiaf race #asoiaf ethnicities #westerosi ethnicities #the dornish #dorne #jacaerys velaryon #jacaerys' characterization #sara snow #jacaerys and sara snow #asoiaf

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agentrouka-blog · 4 years ago

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So the characters involved in the central most pairing of the series haven't had interacted with each other and don't even refer to one another in their thoughts and we have only two books remaining . And pairings where the author has invested for more than one book and probably will even more in the upcoming books aren't even centrally important ( Braime, Gendraya, Jaime xCersei etc) . Why would Grrm introduce his central pairing so late ( even if it happens they will not be reuniting earlier than middle of TWOW at best ) ? Not asking in bad faith but why do you think it makes Jonsa the main romantic duo and not the others ? Also both of them will be involved in their individual arcs too that has nothing to do with the other . Maybe he will need an extra book if he wants the Aragorn Arwen of his story to meet and interact for the first time let alone harbour romantic feelings and accept them past hurdles when a huge chunk of the saga has already been done . Seems too underwhelming and a bit lazy . Imagine reading a book where the main romantic pair just meet at the end and then go through angst and fall in love quickly because page constraints .

Hi anon,

I'll be brief because... just because.

I called it "the central romance of the book series", I believe, once, because it is essentially the only romance. Gendrya is not central to their character arcs and Arya's prepubescent age all but erases it from the plot after dropping the 5-year-gap. Braime isn't a romance (it's a red herring), Jaime x Cersei isn't a romance (it's a tragic and codependent incestuous sibling relationship) and I'm not sure there are any other contenders.

Jonsa, as I see it set up, will make their romantic relationship an important, connecting aspect of their individual arcs. The theme of rebirth and regeneration is entwined in them, same as the specific kind of idealism and faith embroidered into romance.

Also, why is it okay for these two - who btw grew up together - to reconnect and reveal their past even as they adjust to a new present in TWOW (and not likely as late as half the book gone)?

Because GRRM isn't writing a romance novel. He is writing an epic fantasy series, with a number of themes running through it, some political, some philosophical, some literary, some romantic, some nostalgic, some historical and some psychological.

Jon and Sansa are important and central characters whose arcs specifically work toward each other - but they are not the only ones. Not by a long shot. Obviously. Their relationship informs their approach toward the endgame and beyond, but as you yourself say, it's not the only thing about the characters and we needed to get to know them individually to appreciate how they will entwine. They have spent the past books struggling with experiences that will directly pay off in their relationship with each other, both romantic and non-romantic.

All this amid a dozen other characters and their arcs.

You don't have to share my opinion, obviously, but I think that GRRM has set it up beautifully, specifically because he has allowed us to get to know them seperately, but with all the tools to fit them together like puzzle pieces and even throw in a lot of previously hidden information that will make a lot of sense in hindsight. Same as RLJ, which is a massive and game-changing reveal past the halfway point.

Guess we'll just agree to disagree. 😊

#jonsa #sansa stark #jon snow #grrm #romance #anti braime #anti gendrya #not really but you know

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joannalannister · 6 years ago

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I recently saw an answer to an ask where you said the Lannister are small people, probably ever since The Hedge Knight. Do you think Joanna was small as well?

First, I really like this question, it’s a good one! Thank you for asking it!

Second, I assume you are referring to this post? (My friends, it really helps me if you supply the post number please!)

“you said the Lannister[s] are small people” Let’s elaborate on that before we proceed.

While the Lannisters are, on average, physically tall, I was using “small” metaphorically to indicate small moral stature and refer to character flaws, to indicate a person who is, on average, mean, or petty, or malicious, or lacking integrity, or contemptible, or bigoted, or pathetic, etc.

(Note that I am saying “on average” to indicate a general tendency which allows for exceptions.)

Tywin is a prime example of a man who is of small moral stature. See also. Basically the polar opposite of Brienne, who is a person of great moral stature.

Also, I think something is lost in the paraphrasing, because I think this tendency toward “smallness” predates THK. I said previously, “Even in the days of Duncan the Tall […], House Lannister would not stand for a cause that was right and just, and they have only grown smaller since.) It’s THK which gives us a very concrete historical example that we actually “see” happening in real (story) time, with the Lannisters refusing Dunk’s call, but if the histories can be believed, examples abound.

Now, do I think Joanna exhibited this tendency toward “smallness”? Sure, at least initially.

That’s just how I personally imagine her, given that GRRM isn’t particularly interested in exploring pre-series female characters, especially ones who are not Targaryens.

We don’t know a lot about Joanna, but we know something about the people around her, like Tywin and Genna and Kevan, and these people are … not … shining beacons of light in the series.

Personally, I think Tywin’s love is conditional, and if you oppose him or if you disappoint him or if you’re not largely on board with his program of dehumanization and Lannister Superiority, he finds that very, very frustrating. If Tywin is frustrated, he tells you to fuck off, to get away from him, he disowns you, he won’t speak to you (ask Jaime (who frustrated Tywin’s ambitions), ask Tyrion (there is not enough parenthetical space here to tell you all the ways Tyrion is at odds with Tywin), ask Genna (who, in her own words, disappointed Tywin)).

If you’re not on board, you’re not compatible with Tywin, in Tywin’s mind. That is who Tywin is in the books.

“Ser Kevan was his brother’s vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion’s no more than show.”

(From my understanding, the people in the vanguard are the people at the front of your army, leading the way. In more modern terms, Kevan is like Tywin’s tank, advancing Tywin’s ideas in the political arena and drawing enemy fire without taking significant damage, which allows Tywin to follow up with a kill shot from relative cover. In short, this is a concerted effort.)

Like … Tywin isn’t just a person, he’s also an ideology. And Kevan is on fucking board, ride or die, a true believer, loyal to the end, and this is what makes Tywin trust him and rely on him.

(This is why I’m not a fan of those “oh, poor Kevan” interpretations… but that’s just me.)

Genna was on fucking board too, she still resents Ellyn Tarbeck “that scheming bitch” <—ACTUAL. CANON. LINE. SHE’S STILL HOSTILE ALMOST 40 YEARS LATER. GENNA IS ON FUCKING BOARD. WWTD. (WHAT WOULD TYWIN DO.) TREBUCHET THE BABIES.

One of the few things we know about Joanna is that Tywin allowed himself to be vulnerable around her. The walls came down for her, the drawbridge lowered. For her, and only her. “Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor.” It’s only for Joanna that Tywin allowed his soft underbelly to be exposed. That implies a level of trust that we never see again in Tywin.

Also consider marriage vows in Westeros: “One flesh, one heart, one soul.”

I live in a largely secular place, so it’s easy to brush something like this off, yeah yeah yeah w/e. But to a Westerosi, these mean something - you’re combining two people into one. (These wedding vows are taken directly from Milton’s Paradise Lost, about Adam and Eve.)

So when Tywin, a literalist, marries Joanna, he is allowing her to become a part of himself.

That’s why I have a really, really, really hard time believing that Tywin fell in love with someone who was not “on board”. At least, initially.

I think that – initially – Joanna was a very bigoted person - someone who was classist, racist, misogynistic, etc.

But the reason that Joanna – or at least the Joanna that I imagine, cuz idk wtf george thinks, if anything – the reason that Joanna captivates me in a way that Tywin never can is because I’m interested in exploring the question, can Joanna change?

Can Joanna grow?

In the series, GRRM is interested in exploring how Jaime and Tyrion change throughout the books, and he has these men court Heroism and Villainy both, and they straddle the line between them.

But GRRM really isn’t that interested in exploring that kind of thing with Cersei in the text, imo, and that always seems kind of sad to me.

So I suppose, in my own writing, I make up for that with Joanna.

Like, in my fanfiction, the first scene where Tywin and Joanna interact is basically Tywin scandalized that Joanna is seemingly not dehumanizing this person, and Joanna reassuring him that it’s not what it looks like and basically “don’t be an idiot, Tywin, of course i’m not treating This Person like a human being, this is just the most convenient thing for me”

And I want to know how she grows from that - how does she eventually come to see This Person as a friend?

And we know that Joanna and the Princess of Dorne became friends, but how did they start?

Aerys was obviously racist, and I think Tywin was racist, but eventually we get to a point where, imo, Joanna wanted to marry her son to the Princess’s daughter, Elia, so how do we get there?

And what about Tytos’s mistress, what about Lynora Hill, what about Ellyn Tarbeck? What do these people mean to Joanna, how does she see them, what does she do?

What of Toad?

GRRM has seeded this era with so many interesting people, so many people for Joanna to run up against and push back against.

So I suppose, IN MY OWN WRITING, I imagine Joanna as small, and I find that the interesting thing is to watch her grow, and also to explore the limits of her growth.

Because her relationship with Tywin is a big factor in her life. If Joanna can see the Princess of Dorne as a human being, and Tywin can’t ….

And how does that make Joanna see herself, how does that change her…

…Joanna’s growth, Joanna’s disillusionment, her own realizations …

…I’m trying to find the right words, because I haven’t written this part yet…

Tywin ruled, and Joanna willingly assisted him in bricking up her own cage. Because Tywin is the living embodiment of Westerosi patriarchy, and Joanna helped him. She was complicit. And even a love as “deep and long-abiding” as Tywin’s can’t save her.

I suppose that’s why I find Tywin/Joanna so sad.

Sadder than GRRM imagined. I don’t think this is a story GRRM could write, tbh.

So yes. Small. But growth is possible.

#joanna lannister #tywin lannister #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #tywin x joanna #where do you people find these posts how far back do you go #Anonymous #replies #lannister thoughts #tjmeta #tywin meta #joanna meta #kevan lannister #house lannister

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jonsa101 · 6 years ago

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The Similarities Between Outlaw King and Game of Thrones is Fucking Wild! *Spoilers for Outlaw King Ahead

So I just finished watching the Outlaw King and I couldn’t help but notice some of the uncanny similarities between this movie and Game of Thrones. So here is a master’s list of things I noticed:

*Edit: Wrote this meta by coincidence but this is totally going to be my first meta for real world Histrorical Alusions for @jonsameta week! Granted this post is based on the movie but the story is based on true events 14th century Scottish King Robert The Bruce went through to free Scotland.

1. First and biggest similarity is the story of Norhtern Independence! Y’all don’t even get me started on this topic. The Scots are fighting for independence against England’s rule and the North have been wanting independence from the South. This is pretty self-explanatory. Also I think it’s important to mention how both Robert the Bruce and Jon Snow struggled to gather military/political support from the other northern men to support their causes.

2. The dragon sigil/banner and wolf symbolism. Prince Edward convinces his father King Edward to raise the “dragon” banner against Robert the Bruce, the Scottish King, after hearing about their rebellion. The dragon banner signified the “end of chivalry” and allowed the English army to unleash brutality against the Scotts and to forcibly conquer their lands. The color of the dragon banner was black and red the same color as the Targaryen sigil in Game of Thrones. Could this be a coincidence? Probably, but considering the fact that Outlaw King is a movie based on history I wouldn’t be surprised if GRRM could have used this story as a historical reference as well. Especially to draw historical themes of what Daenerys and the Targeryens are truly so supposed to represent.

*Bonus: When Robert the Bruce heard about his brother’s cruel death and the kidnapping of his wife and child, on his way to avenge them and free Scotland he says “No more chivalry! Now it’s time to fight like WOLVES!” Y’all I was shook. This was my live reaction lol:

3. Sansa Stark and Elizabeth similarities. Both are headstrong high born ladies paired up with rugged northern men. They’re both extremely loyal and fully support their partners causes. They are also extremely smart and aware of the power of politics and they both want their partners to treat them as equals in important political decisions. In hindsight, they both balance out their partners perfectly and make the perfect team. This movie gave me major JONSA VIBES!! It was crazy!

4. If Jon and Sansa get together (which I believe they will) I believe their interactions will be similar to the movie but on a much deeper level. I’ve always said that if Jon and Sansa got married it would be for political reasons and love. In the movie, Elizabeth and Robert have a political marriage not knowing each other at all and then falling deeply in love. With Jon and Sansa, I think it’s highly possible for them to get married for political reasons already having feelings for each other with that love only growing stronger after they marry.

Now let’s get into the tinfoil!

5. I can see a realistic layout of a potential kidnapping of Sansa in season 8 because of this film. Not saying that it will happen or that I want it to happen but I can see a layout, especially since they kidnapped Elizabeth and held her prisoner and tried to use that as leverage against Robert. Here’s the scenario I have and I think will be the most likely thing for a kidnapping to take place: a surprise attack on Winterfell. I’ll leave it at that. I’ve wrote other metas about this. Also if that actually happens, the only acceptable reaction I will take from Jon is how Chris Pine portrayed his agony which was fucking spot on and not over the top in the slightest!

6. I don’t know if this is really tinfoil but for the sake of this comparison I will put it here. I can totally see essence of political Jon in the The Outlaw King story. Robert basically had to pretend that he was in favor/loyal to the King and even swore solem vows to him. He didn’t do this because he wanted to or because he thought King Edward was a good King and deserved to rule, he did it for the sake of peace and to not have anymore bloodshed. As soon as Robert’s father passed away and he saw his people rioting against the King, Robert jumped on the first opportunity he got to fight for Scotland’s independence and broke all his vows. I believe Jon will probably do the same when the time is right and like Robert I don’t think Jon bent the knee because he was enamored with Dany. I think he did it because of the difficult situation he found himself in.

#the outlaw king #game of thrones #jon snow #sansa stark #jonsa #jonsa meta #got s8 predictions #movie and show comparison #netflix #jon x sansa #northen independence #similarities #outlaw king #jonsameta

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wargwhatisitgoodfor · 6 years ago

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GRRM’s Much Ado about Mirrors - An Introduction

NOTE: The following is entirely speculation. Also in the latter portion of this meta, I will be introducing the possibility that a specific character has been tortured and sexually assaulted since season seven.

Within a story’s framework, mirrors can draw connections amongst characters and events and can convey conscious/subconscious thoughts, truth vs lies, etc. In a reference to the practice of hydromancy, The Lord of the Rings contains a basin of water, Galadriel’s mirror, that provides visions of the past, present, and possible future. Inspired by Tolkien’s device, GRRM uses mirrors not only in an allegorical manner in his series A Song of Ice and Fire (e.g. Sansa Stark as the positive mirror image to Cersei Lannister) but also to consistently foreshadow major events with water as well as to allude to previous scenes that haven’t yet been revealed to the reader (this will later compare to Melisandre’s pyromancy).

Of particular note, both Arya Stark’s confrontation with Joffrey Lannister alongside the waters of the Trident and Dæny’s clash with her brother Viserys in the midst of the “Dothraki Sea” serve to FORESHADOW THE CLIMAX OF THE ENTIRE SERIES.

GRRM successfully misdirects his readers and builds suspense though by also utilizing inversions, parallels, and consistently and purposefully leaving out scenes. Just as GRRM emulates and references multiple primary sources in his narrative, the show writers have looked at the most successful adaptations of the material that inspired him in their creation of the television show. In fact, this upcoming season will be tying together narrative threads in a major plot point that was seemingly inspired by Peter Jackson’s adaptation of LoTR.

Examining GRRM’s narrative techniques within the text itself and to his literary/historical sources reveals a great deal about Game of Thrones Season Eight, such as “The Kidnapping Plot”, “The Parentage Reveal”, “Will Dæny get her house with the red door?”

MIRRORS:

1. In the Series - Lady Crane is to Bianca as Sansa is to Cersei… AKA “THE KIDNAPPING PLOT”:

Jaquen H’ghar assigning Arya to rewatch her father’s death is certainly a reference to Hamlet testing Claudius; however it is also a mirror of the threats that Sansa and the Stark siblings/cousins will face in season eight. On stage, Bianca’s feelings and murderous plans for Lady Crane foreshadow Cersei’s targeting of Sansa. When the action moves back-stage as the actors remove costumes and wigs in front of mirrors, most of the doubles change but Lady Crane remains the stand-in for Sansa (e.g. the other actors’ comments that the crowd loves Lady Crane references book!Sansa’s pledge in A Clash of Kings: “... IF I AM EVER A QUEEN, I WILL MAKE THEM LOVE ME”).

The writers make this point irrefutable when they both acknowledge the criticism levied against them (Lady Crane: “The writing’s no good”) at the same time as they foreshadow how they plan on elevating the series from everything else that has come before it with Arya’s response: “(this story) would all just be (more of the same) without (Sansa the subversive heroine).”

Just as the threats to Lady Crane shifts, Sansa/the Starks will be targeted by a different force mid-way through the season when ALL of the Stark siblings/cousins will be involved in a violent stand-off, which will center on the FATE OF THE NEXT GENERATION OF STARKS.

2. To a Primary Source - Howland Reed and Petyr Baelish are the reconstruction/deconstruction of a trope and historical character:

Yes, just as Petyr Baelish has been ushered out of the action, the show will finally deliver Howland Reed!

Early on in season eight, Jon Snow will meet Howland Reed after trouble has ensued in the North.

(Leo Woodruff was cast as Howland as he had been on set for several years and wouldn’t attract any attention with his presence on set.) The show, as well as the book series, has quietly but consistently foreshadowed the ironic “event” in which Howland will enter the present narrative beginning with several comments from Robert Baratheon in season one and continuing on through Jaime and Cersei’s last argument in season seven. In fact just as some fans have noted that “The Spoils of War” mirrors “Hardhome”, Howland’s arrival should flip another notable scene (and reference an important moment in Westerosi history).

Given the nature and atmosphere of his appearance, Howland will not only privately discuss Jon’s parentage (the show’s opportunity to do a weirwood tree vision/flashback of the Tournament of Harrenhal) but will also reveal Ned Stark’s contingency plans

(the means by which this story will starts to conclude its theme of the futility of war… for more details, see the section on parallels between Ned and Doran Martell). NOTE: This meta on Howland Reed and Petyr Baelish will be part one in this series.

INVERSION:

1. In Show/Series - Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister:

There are many metas on the connections between the two; however I haven’t seen one yet explore the respective secrets that both characters have NEVER disclosed to anyone; it is those secrets that have largely dictated their individual characters arcs and are the main reason the show has the two having a conversation with each other in season one. To be sure, Cersei’s line about Jaime being the “stupidest Lannister” in the last episode of season seven will in retrospect be ironic. These narrative threads should be exposed with all the action and fallout surrounding “SANSA’S GIFTS” early on in season eight.

2. To a Source - Dæny and her character’s main inspiration:

Dæny was not only partially inspired by a Shakespearean MALE CHARACTER (there are very few, if any, one-to-one correlations) but her narrative will ultimately contain elements from one of the most well-known and subversive adaptations of that particular character. Coincidentally, as Dæny is the inverse of the main male character, Jon Snow is the positive mirror of one of the main supporting characters in the same play. GRRM’s purposeful lack of additional POVs in Essos can make it difficult to recognize that her narrative arc not only takes her full-circle but has her regress; however it should be irrefutable upon her final conflict, which has her face the same question as many of her predecessors: “What do you do with the children of those who threaten your power?”

Dæny’s clash with the Starks over this question is the MOST VISUALLY REFERENCED SCENE in the whole tv series.

(THE COLOR OF THE EGG IS IMPORTANT.)

PARALLELS:

1. In the Show/Series - The Plans of Ned Stark and Those of Doran Martell:

Due to the trauma that they both experienced during Robert’s Rebellion and their steadfast love for their sisters, both Ned Stark and Doran Martell worked steadily and inconspicuously towards shoring up separate plans for their respective families. Besides recruiting their younger brothers’ help and their focus on strengthening political alliances in their respective regions,

THE CORE OF EACH OF THEIR PLANS RESTS ON A SECRET MARRIAGE BETROTHAL.

Unfortunately, their differences (Ned is for protection/reactionary and Doran is about vengeance/aggression) may lead to entirely different ends for their houses (I’m still holding out hope regarding Sarella’s future collaborative efforts with Samwell Tarly and Marwyn and her eventual governance of Dorne). Ned’s contingency plans should not only hint at an ironic ending but at the theme of the futility of war.

2. To a Source - Varys and his character’s inspiration:

Despite the substantial differences between show!Varys’s plot and his counterpart in the book series, his ties to his character’s main inspiration remain intact - his secret identity and his visits to political prisoners. These core characteristics will lead him to be an active participant in his death, similar to his narrative source; in an ironic twist, Varys will end up aligning with the Starks and will save the life of one of their most important allies with the help of Melisandre. Varys is another testament to GRRM’s belief that anyone can make the choice to be heroic.

MISSING SCENES -

GRRM intentionally leaves out critical scenes throughout his series as it enables him to surprise his reader. Because it would be too obvious to leave out the most important scenes, GRRM does it in MANY instances. “Why don’t we have more insight on Sansa’s female relationships?” “Why don’t we have a chapter with Catelyn saying goodbye to all of her children?” “Why don’t we have a Dothraki POV?” The writers for the show have successfully used this device since season one. It isn’t until season seven though that the show makes it evident that some of the most important scenes are not always shown to the audience.

It may seem like the writers are cheating the audience with leaving out scenes, but they have always provided us with ALTERNATE VERSIONS OF WHAT IS MISSING.

1. In Show/Series - Ramsey is to Theon as Yara is to Euron:

Once Yara is taken captive and paraded through King’s Landing, the audience doesn’t get to view another scene with her nor learn second-hand what is happening to her. Theon does express two beliefs about his sister’s fate: 1.) Yara is still alive, and 2.) Euron is holding her captive rather than Cersei. However, Euron’s comment to Yara in season seven about the King’s Landing crowd (“... THIS IS MAKING ME HARD”) along with book!Aeron’s terrifying memories of Euron visiting his bedroom at night (”No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could... nor memories, the honest of the soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hings. Euron has come again.” A Feast for Crows, “The Prophet”) indicate that

Euron not only commits gratuitous violence against his ship’s captives but that he enjoys sexually assaulting his family members.

Is that enough foreshadowing for the tv show’s general audience? Perhaps it isn’t, which may be part of the reason why the show writers decided to repeatedly show graphic scenes of Ramsey torturing Theon... those scenes also serve as a stand-in to what Euron is doing to Yara.

What would be the purpose of delaying this revelation about Yara? The most obvious answer lies in a conversation that Theon has with Ramsey about his father during season three: “Those men, they said that my father knew what they were doing to me.” As the audience knows, Balon Greyjoy does learn what is happening to his son and still refuses to him him.

If Ramsey and Theon are a stand-in for Euron and Yara, then the audience can extrapolate that THEON IS AWARE OF WHAT EURON DOES TO FEMALE CAPTIVES (EVEN THOSE RELATED TO HIM) AND EXPLAINS TO DAENY WHAT YARA IS EXPERIENCING. We also know from the Dragon pit meeting that Dæny does not ask for Yara to be returned.

This possible narrative may lead the audience to unexpected topics: Will an abortion be part of the plot in season eight of Game of Thrones? If Yara has been the subject of Euron’s heinous, violent acts, what does this mean for the other familial pairing - Jon and Dæny? Jon’s arrival at Dragonstone and his departure for Winterfell does roughly correspond to the same time frame as Euron taking Yara hostage and Theon heading off to rescue her.

Thus, are Jon and Dæny a MIRROR of Yara and Euron, or are they the INVERSE of one another? Was Jon summoned to Dæny‘s room? Or did he come of his accord? Is the show exploring the topic of “submission vs consent” with two of its most popular characters?

2. To a Source - “Sansa’s Gifts” and Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings Trilogy:

Similar to Dæny and Cersei respectively in seasons five and seven, Sansa will receive “gifts” from someone who is trying to convince her of his/her loyalty towards the end of episode one or towards the beginning of episode two. Not only will this complete the “rule of three” for all of the queens in the last season, but this plot point was inspired by a narrative device that Peter Jackson created in adapting The Lord of the Rings.

To maintain the surprise of this plot twist, the show left out TWO CRITICAL SCENES that happened early on in the series. Just as Theon and Ramsey are a stand-in for Yara/Euron, there are two scenes that serve as a double for the ones that the audience will never see; however those scenes have been alluded to, and the audience has witnessed evidence that they occurred.

This show’s writers have been planning this since the beginning, and “Sansa’s gifts” actually fits ALL of the narrative devices mentioned in this meta:

Mirror (In Show AND Source Material)

Inversion (In Show AND Source Material)

Parallel (In Show AND Source Material)

It also INSPIRED ALL OF THE “GIFTS” THAT WERE CREATED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE SHOW, including the thimble Sam gave Gilly, Ellyria sending Myrcella’s necklace to Cersei, Davos giving his carvings to Shireen, Littlefinger bringing a falcon to Robyn Arryn, etc.

Truly, the narrative impact that this will have on the outcome of the entire series cannot be overstated. Just as Ned’s death overturned the audience’s expectations as it also impacted the trajectory of the entire narrative, so will “Sansa’s gifts”.

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