#DEFECT ALREADY MARROW JUST TAKE WINTER AND GO.......

[relicbxund]

softly are ya defectin son.......

[hadesisqueer]

Thinking about the scene in which Marrow confronts Winter about activating the bomb while JOYR is still in side the whale, and Winter tells him that they have to do it, that she warned them and that they couldn't wait any longer to kill that thing. Then Marrow brings Weiss up, and while he couldn't see her face, Winter's tough persona breaks, and we see that she is struggling just as much as he does. That she hates all of this, that she doesn't want to do this to JOYR, that she doesn't want to have to tell her sister that her friends are gone, and much less, imagine what she would do if it was Weiss inside that thing. However, Winter takes a deep breath, regains her composure, and tells Marrow that yes, because that's her duty.

Because that's what Winter did. She put her duty, the important thing, before anything else, regardless of how she felt about it. No matter how much it hurt her, she put it before her own wants, her own needs and even her own life. That's what she did.

Except in the finale.

Here, Winter has already defected. She has defeated Ironwood and now that Penny's gone, she is also the Winter Maiden. And Winter is going to fight Cinder and get the relics back.

And Winter actually does quite good. She does manage to get the Staff of Creation; however, Cinder lands a hit on her, which causes the Staff to fall from her hands.

She could have retrieved it, and she was going to, but then, to keep her away from it and herself and the Lamp, Cinder does her favorite move: attempting against Weiss' life.

And it works. When she sees Cinder targeting Weiss, Winter doesn't think twice: she forgets about the Staff, and desperately tries to get there as soon as possible to save her.

However, she's not fast enough. Winter doesn't make it, and, as far as she's aware, she's just had to see her sister die in front of her eyes because she wasn't fast enough to catch her.

We all know what happens after this.

This was the one time—the one fucking time—Winter chose her own wants (saving Weiss) instead of her duty (retrieving the staff before Cinder could).

She didn't get the relics. And she didn't save Weiss. And then she couldn't kill Cinder in revenge, either. Damn, she couldn't even save Jaune, and now she has to tell his team who've already lost a teammate and other friends that he's gone now.

This was the one time Winter chose what was important to her—not to Ironwood, not to Atlas, not to the rest of the world, to her, her little sister, the person she clearly loves the most in the world—and she lost her anyway. She lost everything.

[appleseverywhere]

CAN WE JUST TALK ABOUT WINTER FOR A MOMENT??

Winter only had about a 12 second screen time this whole episode, which is hardly much considering that her last appearance was episode 1. Still, in those 12 seconds, we can see so little but also so much at the same time.

“You’re going to find her... Winter...”

Ironwood has already placed Winter back on duty without having fully recovered from her injuries, hence the brace/cast which we’ve already assumed since ep 1. The moment she walks in, her eyes are solely focused on Penny’s sword, clearly in thought. For all we know, she was thinking about Penny’s current condition especially since she knew Watts had done something to her under Ironwood’s command. She doesn’t even acknowledge anyone in the room as she enters, and that in itself tells us she’s deep in thought.

Her eyes instantly narrow when Watts caresses Penny’s sword. Her disdain is visible. I’d like to think that she knows Penny’s autonomy has been taken away from her at this point, and I really hope she’s also thinking that she’s been in the same situation time and time again. It could also be because of the way the treated Penny, who has been her partner even since she was rebuilt within the 2-year timeframe from V3-V7. Her anger is clear, whether it was because of Watt’s actions or the thoughts raging in her mind, it’s there. Keep in mind that she has still yet to acknowledge anyone here.

Then finally, she speaks.

“...Sir?”

Her response was delayed, and it’s not the first time it’s happened. Her honorifics of him had faltered back in episode 1 when she asked “What will you do... sir?”. She’s in doubt, and Weiss has planted those seeds of doubt in her mind since they’ve arrived in Atlas last volume. When she says “...Sir?”, she looks unsure. Almost doubtful. She doesn’t know what to make of the situation with regards to her personal feelings, to the point that she had almost missed acknowledging her superior. Her face is almost crestfallen, and its clear that she is becoming more and more defeated. For reasons why, we don’t know just yet but we have our speculations at this point.

Once more, we see her gaze lingering on the sword rather than on her superior. Her expression is dejected, and she is nowhere near alright with what had just happened. But she says nothing and her shows the defeat she’s begun to feel. It’s honestly depressing to see and I can’t help but feel so bad for her and the position she’s in. It’s heartbreaking.

“Until Penny either responds or is standing in front of that vault, we cannot assume her status.” 

I’d like to believe that this is the start of her internal conflict worsening. Mind VS Heart. She knows in her heart that this is no longer the right course to take, but the way they framed everyone looking towards her like they greatly depended on her actions makes it as though she has no choice but to follow orders. Ironwood’s commands in itself are putting weight on her shoulders by saying that until they had Penny, they were immobile and could not progress. The mission had been assigned to her and if she failed, there would be consequences. Her mind was telling her to follow the path of duty, but her heart was greatly telling her otherwise. 

The painful truth is at this point in the series, it’s going to be difficult to stray from the one thing you’ve always known to be right. Winter has always been keen on her military path as a means to escape Jacques, but as of the moment, she has no way of escaping Ironwood. Like most of the defecting theories, she and Marrow have some of the biggest potentials to leave, but that doesn’t mean they could (just yet). Ironwood is paranoid. He thinks there is no one left to trust, but fact of the matter is that from the very start of this volume, he immediately tells her that he doesn’t know what he’d do without her. It may be seen as abusive psychology, but the trust he vocalized to her is likely weighing her down. She doesn’t know how to escape it and doesn’t know if she even can, no matter how much she wants to. 

I’m hoping by the end of this volume, she finds a way out. It may not be immediate but the signs aren’t subtle anymore. HER DOUBT IS CLEAR. She mentioned in V7 that even she believed that not everything he was doing was perfect, and told Penny how she should acknowledge and wrestle with her personal feelings. It’s something that tells them that they’re on the right path, and this is the moment she’s begun wrestle with her emotions, to forge her way on to the better path.

Hoping that Winter gets out of this soon. She deserves to be happy, especially after everything she’s been through. :(

[theseerasures]

a yearning nation’s blueeyed pride

honestly there is just like. no point as of Witch (if not earlier) in thinking about Marrow and Winter as following along the same defection path, and downright facile to compare the two in terms of who is “closer” to defecting and therefore “less problematic” (even setting aside that making value judgments along those lines in fiction is...never that straightforward), when the narrative has emphasized REPEATEDLY how they are on entirely separate tracks in terms of character and role in the Atlas military.

seriously, it’s like saying “this orange is bad because you can’t eat the peel like you can eat an apple skin”

so like, yes, Marrow is the one who has verbally expressed his misgivings, and has clearly articulated scruples (as opposed to just the dial-up noise) and will blurt them out any second now as soon as he gets a word in edgewise. but also: Marrow HASN’T gotten a word in edgewise (except with Winter, fancy that), and has done approximately fuck all to actually subvert the system that he is growing to hate. both his theory and lack of praxis are tied into Marrow’s relatively low, overlooked position in the Atlas system, and feed into the fact that for Marrow the project of Atlas is not personal.

Marrow joined the military on ideological grounds. he clearly does want personal connection, but that has been denied him at every turn, largely by his teammates, largely by his partner, all of whom use him to enforce their own struggles with the clash between political duty and personal grief. he has been alienated by the system he upholds, which started even before we meet him. this makes it much harder for him to rebel in deed, because he doesn’t have a lot of power to begin with and he knows the system will not protect him if he does; at the same time, that relative powerlessness and isolation keeps his investment in Atlas abstract, uncomplicated, and much easier to dispel. Marrow is still with Atlas because he has a job to do, because it’s his duty, because he is still clinging to the Atlas military’s illusory altruism. he wants Penny to come with them so she can save Atlas. his protestations at seeing Team FNKI, that they are “just kids,” comes from the belief that it is categorically wrong to send children into battle. what is keeping Marrow from defecting is belief, and once the belief is shattered--like, say, when his boss’ new ingenious plan is to Nuke the Poors--there is nothing keeping him around.

and once his path is set he will not waver, because Atlas, by design, has no hold on him materially or personally (outside of his own life, which he was already happy to dedicate to a cause). Marrow then, is the limit case of Atlas being hoist with its own petard: an exemplar for how it gives its people nothing while demanding everything, but also an exemplar for how quickly the entire system folds in on itself when the veil is lifted. when Marrow defects (and it IS when) it will represent Atlas as a whole defecting from itself, even if we don’t see it visually--from the civilians, to the enlisted soldiers, to perhaps even members of Marrow’s own team.

NONE of the things i just mentioned really apply to Winter, because there is nothing about Atlas that is not personal for Winter.

i have no doubt that Winter is in some ways invested in same abstract principles that swayed Marrow, but that is constantly overridden by the fact that Winter has family at all sides of this, even before everything fell to shit, and the narrative will not stop reminding her.

“what about your sister?” “would you say the same thing if it was your sister inside?” her father was gunning for a seat on the Council. the man who took her in is essentially Head of State. Penny has made herself Public Enemy Number One, and Weiss is actively abetting her. even Whitley has now thrown himself into the fray, unbeknownst to her. and another person might be better at compartmentalizing all this the way Winter clearly wants to, and stick to the party line, but Winter cannot, because the more i watch her the more i’m convinced that the current crisis in Atlas is just a microcosm of the real issue, which is to say: everything is personal in Atlas for Winter, because everything is personal for Winter.

at a moment-to-moment level, and especially when backed into a corner, Winter defaults not to ideology but her tightly coiled lattice of personal relationships. and this makes perfect sense, because Winter grew up in a household where she had to perpetually crisis respond, and then she never stopped. Marrow does what he does because he believes in the dream, in making the world a better place, and therefore it is more difficult in some respects for him to defect, because it involves taking a long hard look at and then rejecting the structures he bought into and made himself complicit in. once lines are crossed and he DOES do that, though, he’s home free. for Winter, there are no lines to cross, because all Winter wants in the end is to throw her arms around everyone she cares about and drag them to safety. to keep them there, closely held, where she can see them and make sure that they stay safe.

but what’s tricky about Winter--what’s fascinating to me, what Jacques tried to beat out of her, what James alternately capitalizes on and tries to quash, what she resents about herself--is that in times of crisis (which for Winter is again ALL THE TIME), “everyone she cares about” becomes everyone, so that suddenly she takes a shine to the General’s war machine, so that she’s risking her life to give Penny and Fria a few more seconds of time, so that she’s stepping in front of Elm’s incoming fist, so that she’s letting JYR go rescue Oscar. Marrow has ideals he values, but at her core Winter has nothing but the people, who are real the moment she sees and feels them--real enough to defend, or defend against.

Winter jealously protects her web of people, but that web will also spiral out to infinity if she lets it--so she doesn’t. she has adamantly refused to move out of the mode where she lives present-by-present, only reacting to what is right in front of her, what she has been told, weighing her own life against the people who are closest, and no more. this is unquestionably a trauma response, but it’s also reinforced by 1) her choice to become a career soldier, and 2) the fact that Winter actually HAS quite a bit of power, and she knows that. but she has never trusted herself with any of it, largely because her hypervigilant response to situations has only ever been chastised instead of rehabilitated. Winter knows the weight of her name and her position, but she constantly tries to ignore it, or run away from it, so that she is only ever the heiress, the second-in-command, and never the Queen. she cannot be a leader until she is Good (that is to say, perfect and rational), so she tries to obliterate her power the same time she obliterates that pesky personhood: remaining still for as long as possible, avoiding situations that she knows will prompt action and choice, and when absolutely pushed to think through her power, moving the pieces around with extreme caution, hoping that the world won’t be burnt black by it.

Marrow and Winter are fundamentally at opposing ends of the personal-political bleed, and the story could NOT telegraph it any more clearly than their conversation in Witch, where Marrow makes a personal plea to Winter so that she can make a call far beyond just that, and she refutes him, by reminding him of his obligation to Atlas in the form of impersonal duty.

i’ll conclude by pointing out that there is something very interesting happening with Winter right now, that exceeds her power in-universe. because even as a Schnee, as Ironwood’s protege, what Winter can do is limited (partly because she limits herself), except for how the story has resolutely centered her actions and MADE them significant. in the course of this war Winter has let herself make exactly two choices--both of them noninterventionist, easily justifiable, and not meant to take any ideological stand--and they ended up altering the entire fabric of the war with Salem. all because she loved her sisters more than her duty. all because she was shown a slim chance to save the kingdom and a fourteen-year-old boy, and she thought just for an instant, what’s the harm

(and James Ironwood will never know. that even with his plan, his bomb, all his ships, all his soldiers...he was no match for her. his loyal lieutenant. the only child he will ever have, who has only ever called him “sir.”)

it is not about what Winter COULD have chosen in those moments, if she had the ability to stop Penny and Weiss from leaving, if JYR were even Oscar’s rescuers, in the conventional sense. it is about the fact that she DID make those choices, and the story has made them reverberate, in spite of the fact that she did not mean for them to. Marrow’s story is about being neglected and overlooked by the system, the moment of recognition that it needs you more than you need it, that there are so many more of you, and together you can stop chasing the dream and make your own. Winter’s story cleaves to the heart of not just Atlas, but the RWBY monomyth, which goes something like: stars are like us. the world was created because two brothers could not get along, and sundered because a woman could not cope with her grief. just because you move closer to the elite, to the center, to the top, to the sublime, it does not mean that you move farther from the fallible. we are all, at our deepest layer, people.

but the world does not tremble any less for it.

[alexkablob]

Okay, so, I was antsy about making a post on this, because I’ve gotten, uh, virulent pushback for speculating along these lines before, but here goes:

I am super worried about Winter Schnee going into the back half of V8.

Because, look, we’ve got the pspsps and are ya defecting son and all those memes for a reason, we’ve seen very clearly that Emerald, Marrow, and Winter’s internal conflicts in particular seem set up to see them defect from their current sides. Emerald’s slow-burn redemption arc is finally coming to a head as she prepares to decisively turn against Salem, Marrow’s ability to tolerate what he’s become a part of is being rapidly overwhelmed, and Winter is...

To put it simply: a human disaster.

My concern right now (under a read-more because it’s long as fuck) is this:

Marrow and Winter are...not the same, actually. Marrow is a lot newer to the Atlesian military, and it’s been repeatedly emphasized that he hasn’t fully internalized the Atlesian bullshit the way that the others have. Winter...is only a few years older than him, but she’s been absolutely marinated in the fascism sauce, and she had Ironwood paying her special attention in recruiting her and mentoring her. I love Winter, but one of the scariest things in the show was the moment when she earnestly, compassionately tried to explain to Penny how to justify being complicit in a war crime to your own conscience.

And, well, building off of the above, I’ll just put it bluntly: most of the differences between Marrow and Winter’s respective worldviews and willingness to abandon them boil down to the fact that Marrow has been a target of Atlesian state violence his entire life while Winter, for all the shit she’s endured, has always been one of the most privileged people in the entire kingdom. Winter found (what she sees as) acceptance and a support structure in the Atlesian military; Marrow has had it constantly emphasized to him that he doesn’t fit in. Ren senses conflict in Winter, and he doesn’t in Marrow, because Marrow isn’t actually conflicted, he’s just working up the courage to act on it.

But I’m not here to demonize Winter: Winter is someone who wants to do the right thing. Winter is someone who wants to make the world better. And she’s someone who is very uncomfortable with the things she’s been ordered to do in the last two days. But she’s also someone who has very much internalized the greater good mentality that Ironwood embodies, and is deep in the sunk-cost fallacy, and that all means she’s conflicted—every time an opportunity for her to chose her side has come up so far, she’s found a way to avoid making it. First with her two younger sisters—the one by blood and the one by choice, who she couldn’t have stopped even if she’d resolved to—and now with letting Team JYR go on what she sees as a suicide mission.

In a vaccum, I think that Winter would choose right. Left to her own devices, and to the devices of Weiss and Penny, she would choose to betray Ironwood and help them. But...Winter doesn’t seem to be on a path to meet them at Schnee manor, and you would expect Weiss in particular to be heavily involved with Winter changing sides. That could change! If there’s anything we’ve seen this volume so far, it’s how quickly the situation can change entirely.

But in the short term...

Winter has been sent on a suicide mission to destroy the whale. A mission that I would be highly surprised to see succeed, but the scary thing is...

Winter has a very high chance of coming face-to-face with Salem.

Salem. The master manipulator. The one who, as Hazel just reminded us, knows exactly how to break people with the futility of fighting her. The one who, as the fandom has been commenting on for weeks, already bent someone very much like Winter to her will in the form of Cinder. That’s who Winter, in the most incredibly vulnerable mindset, has been sent into the jaws of.

That’s what I’m afraid of. Because Salem has already offered to spare Atlas in exchange for their cooperation once—an offer that Ironwood rejected out of hand, and an offer that Penny (who has also been influenced by the Atlesian mindset, but decisively rejected it) pondered about accepting after presumably being told about it by Team RWBY. An offer that Winter was not in the room to hear.

It’s not a question of whether or not Salem can manipulate Winter by making her think collaboration is the only way to save Atlas. All she would have to do is tell her oh, your bravery is wasted on Ironwood, he’s sent you here to die because he doesn’t know when to quit, you know his leadership has led your people to ruin but you can still save them from oblivion, you can still do the right thing, take matters into your own hands, be the hero that Atlas needs—or you can watch them fall at my side and be the last daughter of Atlas to perish.

Winter Schnee is the biggest wild card in play right now, and nobody has realized it—not Ironwood, not Ruby, and certainly not herself. But Salem could eat her alive without even trying, and I’m terrified that she’ll soon have the opportunity to.

[fishyfod]

*sigh* No, Winter is not the “Queen of Atlas”, that’s just dressing up the whatever theory that people apparently had here that Winter will become the aCtUAl villain of Atlas by replacing Ironwood via a military coup. This is not what happened last episode.

If I’ll run with this terminology, I could see why people would refer to Ironwood as the “King” of Atlas, because he consolidates his power. He started off as a general (putting aside my personal grievances with him being in the military you know how I feel about that), which gives him considerable power but should technically still make him beholden to the Atlas council of representatives. A military general is not a “king”, but when Ironwood takes more seats in the council and begins to override the council, eventually resorting to killing off his opposition, that’s when he crosses over the threshold between general and dictatorship, or “king” if you will. He considers his power and judgement the only ones worthy, which is ultimately his greatest flaw - he is not incapable of doing good, but his tunnel vision prevents him from seeing the benefits of working with others unless someone above him directs him to do so (like Ozpin did). He always believed himself infallible, to the point where he trusts no one but himself to do the “right thing”.

Now, given what little knowledge we have of the military rankings (which is none), it’s a little bit hard to tell exactly what Winter’s position was and is. It’s safe to assume that with no Clover and Ironwood in custody, she is probably the acting general of the Atlas military, and a considerable amount of soldiers seem to follow her lead (note that this is an assumption that could be broken, I digress). So I can agree that she’s currently in charge of the army and assumes many of Ironwood’s responsibilities he had until now (Winter honey leave the army pretty please).

But as I said previously, Ironwood wasn’t “king” simply because he was head of the army, he was “king” because he assumed all ruling power in Atlas. And that’s where he and Winter are very different for two primary reasons: their viewpoint of what’s right, and their ability to work with others.

I’ll start off with the obvious; Winter always knew what the more moral choice was, her defection was not about changing her moral viewpoint but to choose in her personal path rather than Ironwood’s. Winter does not need convincing Mantle can’t be sacrificed, it’s because she already believed the general’s actions were a step too far that she defected.

Second, but far more important frankly, is Winter’s ability to work with others. Winter is a very lonely person with a difficulty connecting to others very personally, yes, but a cold temperament is not an indication she is incapable of putting her trust in others, it’s simply difficult for her. I think the last episode made it very clear she can work with allies, and extremely important - she reached out first. Ironwood can also work with others, but never by his own volition, only when either ordered (Ozpin) or cornered (RWBY/Council/Robyn). Winter initiated the contact with Marrow, Weiss and Robyn and Qrow last episode, while also letting others take the lead (notably, her main role fighting was more supportive than usual, and she followed Weiss’s wishes regarding Jacques).

Now, an argument could be made that because Ironwood took all power in Atlas and Winter “inherited” his position, this makes her the “Queen”. Except, that would only apply if she would choose to continue on his path and continue consolidating all the power in Atlas in the military’s hands, which is a doubtful assumption (see above). Moreover, the fact she’s likely not willing to take all that responsibility is a good thing - she shouldn’t, because no single person should have all the power. I just don’t see that as a bad thing, it’d be amazing of her to realize other people are better suited for the jobs Ironwood has decided to have all by himself (*wink wink nudge nudge* Robyn Hill and the Happy Huntresses are looking might fine there Winter).

Ironwood and Winter are in a similar position here, but I find it very doubtful they’re going to make the same choices because of that.

[laulink]

V8E12 thoughts

That was A LOT 

And once again, CRWBY proves how good they are with storytelling !

My main concern about the possibility of Penny “becoming human” was the message it could send : we already know that Penny is and always has been a real girl, but the show had to be careful in how it would handle her getting a meat body to avoid sending a message about her robotic body “not being good enough”, in some way, especially since so many people see her as an allegory for a transgender girl. But they did it masterfully, by reaffirming that her true self is her soul and the body parts are just extra that they can take out without changing who she is. She didn’t become human, the spirit just took out the robotic body parts, leaving her bare self behind, and that bare self was a human girl. That’s beautiful.

Also it was really unexpected. I don’t engage with fandom all that much outside of the people I follow, but I don’t believe anyone saw it coming that they’d use the Staff to save Penny from the virus. But, as unexpected as it was, it was a brilliant plan and done really well ! They even manage to use a loophole (real world example) in Ambrosius’s rules and conditions to get what they wanted (super fast travel between Atlas/Mantle and Vacuo). Like, there are rules, so it’ll be difficult, but actually no because RWBY and co are so smart that they immediately found a way to get everyone to Vacuo without having to learn something as complicated as the quantum physics behind how this would work. Brilliant !

More of a sidenote because it wasn’t the focus of the episode, but I think that Winter’s scenes deserve a special mention. As we all predicted, she saved Marrow’s life and defected with him because she realised that Ironwood had to be stopped, but on top of that, she also realised she would need help and got in touch with Weiss, something that I don’t think any of us had predicted, and they made a plan all together instead of just crashing into one another on the way to the Vault/the payload. I loved it. And I also loved how she fought this episode ! Maybe it’s because she’s still hurt, but Winter didn’t go on the front line like she did in her previous fights (against Qrow and Cinder), instead she took a page out of Weiss’s book and fought as a support member to the team, lifting them up, catching them, transporting them ! No more sole hero routine like Ironwood, she’s working with the kids as a team.

Lastly, I am of the mind that Watts is to blame for the CCT going down and Cinder and Neo will fight RWBY and co in the “central location”, BUT. I don’t think anyone will fall. I think there will be close calls, but ultimately, I don’t see anyone dying there, except maybe Neo as she is unlikely to get any form of development in the future. Her objective is to get revenge for Roman and she’s not in a place (physical and of mind) to move past her grief any other way than by killing Ruby, which cannot happen, so I think she’ll get out of the picture by the end of V8 or 9.

[coldgoldlazarus]

So, let's see where everyone's at right now.

-Ironwood has put a huge metaphorical gun to the head of an entire city, and as a result has made enemies of like, 95% of the people who might still have held some scrap of hope for him to come around. After this, I don't think there's any hope for reconciliation. Whether he realizes it or not, he has changed his gamemode to Current Objective: Survive

-Qrow and Robyn are loose and incredibly pissed. I have no doubt Qrow is gunning for Jimmy's head already, and if she saw the emergency broadcast, Robyn will be even more furious. They will be out for blood.

-Winter's currently in "abused child shying away from angry dad" mode, but it's hard to say how long that'll last. If she goes along with this, it'll be out of fear rather than genuine belief in what she's doing, but with Weiss's life potentially on the line, she may finally turn on Ironwood for good. Meanwhile, Marrow is just, increasingly done with all this bullshit. Pspspspsps, etc.

-The other three Ace-Ops may also be ready to defect. Even Harriet, lost in the sauce as she is rn, was shocked by Ironwood's tablesmash; I'm holding out hope that they can get past their indoctrination and do the right thing as well.

-The other Happy Huntresses are presently indisposed keeping Ironwood's initial salvo from killing people, and unless the action goes back down to Mantle, I don't see them being especially relevant for the time being. However, that doesn't mean they're completely out for the count, and could still plausibly come in clutch later.

-RWBY+ are finally back together, and Ironwood has just definitively announced himself as their current enemy. They have to at least pretend to go along with his demands to keep Mantle from getting destroyed, but they absolutely will not just give in that easily, especially now that they have an illusionist with something to prove on their side.

-Speaking of which, Emerald is an illusionist with something to prove. She's not completely in the group right now, and there's a lot of understandable mistrust to sort out, but for the time being I think she's tied to them whether they like it or not. That may either change or be solidified, however, by whatever comes from her inevitable reunion with Cinder.

-Penny seems to be down for the count again after her thrashing by the Hound, but the virus is still worming its way in, and she's still the Winter Maiden; control over her is what this whole conflict has been about, and I have little doubt she will be active and central again soon enough, likely in a way that throws a monkey wrench into everyone's plans.

-Team FNKI are still MIA. If they didn't survive, I will be pissed. Also, Where The Fuck Is Ciel Soleil?

-Cinder is currently caught between her desire for power and her fear of Salem, and will have to choose between getting the Maiden powers from Penny, or getting the Lamp back by finally completing Neo's loyalty mission. Either way, however, it's gonna put her on a collision course with RWBY+, and who knows how that will turn out. Watts will likely be along for the ride whether he likes it or not, and Neo will definitely be getting involved.

-Ironically, the Lamp may be a moot point now, if Neo did indeed use the last question. And if she did, that could have drastically changed her course as well; she may still be gunning for Ruby, but she may be about to turn on Cinder as well. As ever, she's a wild card unto herself amidst the general chaos.

-And all the while, it's anyone's guess how long it will take for Salem to respawn. She may not be infinitely powerful, and losing Monstra was definitely a huge blow, (though given how slowly it's dissolving, and the rib structures that seem to be left behind, I wouldn't be surprised if it remains relevant in some way) but she's still Salem, and the clock is ticking.

I don't know what exactly the last few episodes are going to look like, but it's going to be insane. I can only imagine a massive five-way battle-royale in the Vault Chamber when all is said and done, but the situation is still so volatile that it could wind up going in a completely different direction. I can't wait to see it happen.

[phantasieandmirare]

Okay last post about the episode and then I’ll stop but: They got out the statement that Ironwood can no longer be trusted. The way the episode is cut, with Ruby mentioning Maidens and Relics, we can assume that they told the world about those and didn’t waste time showing it because we, the audience, already know and it would’ve been boring and a waste of time to make us sit through the explanation of what those are. So we can also kind of assume that they told the world why Ironwood can’t be trusted and that he’s chosen to abandon Mantle. That means that his soldiers heard that as well. They know that their leader is choosing to leave Mantle to the wolves when he’s supposed to save them all.

His military is now aware that their leader has gone full dictator and that they need to either drop their trust in him now, or take every order he gives after this with a tablespoon of salt. Every single soldier, scientist, medic, huntsman, and emergency worker under Ironwood’s control is now aware that something is deeply wrong with their leader’s thinking, and I’m willing to bet that we’re going to start getting defections left and right as individual military members have to hear the order to abandon Mantle, or realize that they haven’t heard a word from Sleet or Camilla (let alone seen them, or rumors will start to go around about what happened to Sleet), or remember that the kingdom’s most wanted right now consists of nine people under twenty including one literal child along with one of Ironwood’s biggest political opponents and biggest scientific advisor, or notice that the ‘Protector of Mantle’ is being dragged through the hallways while screaming for help (I’m on board with the theory that Penny will retain mental control but her body is against her). And remember in the intro that Ironwood is left on a chessboard with all of his pieces disappearing from around him while Salem attacks: he is going to lose everything. He’s losing Winter fast, of the Ace Ops he’s probably going to lose Marrow at least, and his military now knows that their leader is unstable. Ironwood is going to be left alone in this. He’s going down, and he’s going down fast, and unfortunately for him he can’t just shoot everyone who stands against him because that’s only going to turn even his most diehard supporters against him and he will lose everyone faster than he already is.

[rambling-procrastinator]

Hey, so I’m no writer, but RWBY volume 8 was sooo bad, and volume 7 was so good, and I feel like there was a lot of potential that went out the for that I wanted to try my hand at rewriting it. Or rather, just tweaking a few characters so it isn’t so awful. Namely Ruby and Ironwood. I feel like if they only acted slightly different, this would have actually been an ok volume. Not great, but ok.

Let’s start with Ironwood. First change, don’t kill sleet. One complaint I have and have heard a few times is ironwood goes from nice guy to Saturday morning cartoon villain real quick, and shooting a background character really doesn’t help anyone. Instead, sleet and the other council person confront ironwood and accuse him of grossly misusing his political power. Ironwood arrests them and tells them they’re free to take him to court once atlas is safe. This shows that ironwood is actually breaking the law and why martial law is a bad thing. Like, martial law exists so the military can protect as many people as possible during emergencies like an invasion, so while it sounds scary, it’s not necessarily evil. Them accusing ironwood of corruption and him more or less agreeing paints it slightly darker but doesn’t push ironwood into maniacal laugh bad guy territory yet. It also doesn’t make winter and the ace ops look bad for blindly following a murderer. They’re supposed to be redeemed by the end, yeah?

The plot continues as normal until the cane blows up the whale. Rather than ask winter about Team ORJY and smiles at the thought of torture and blackmail, like a crazy person, he instead asks about the bomb and explosion. Learning that Salem is dead and they still have the bomb , he comes up with a plan. Remember how the amity tower plot didn’t matter and nothing came of it? Well instead, ironwood uses it for inspiration. Since they can’t get to the staff, they’ll explode the bomb under atlas to launch it to safety, just like the dust mines and amity tower. Winter or vine or someone points out that mantle is directly below atlas, so ironwood makes his announcement. Rather than give the ultimatum that penny needs to turn herself in or he’ll genocide everyone, he instead uses the announcement as a warning to mantle. It still comes down to “give me penny in an hour or I’ll blow it all up”, but he apologizes to the citizens and says that the fate of the entire human race is more important. Also, Grimm are the ones that take out the schnee rescue vehicles. This makes James look less like a genocidal crazy person and Harriet less like an idiot for going through with the genocide just because. Now she still thinks she’s saving atlas.

Next change comes soon after when marrow defects. Scene starts with winter asking ironwood if there’s any other way. Ironwood responds that Salem is regenerating as they speak and the military already lost, like, 80% of the soldiers or some other big number to hammer in how dire things are, and they need to act NOW with what little time they have. Marrow defects and the Scene plays out the same way, but instead of turning his back on the general, he draws his gun for emphasis. Winter still saves him from being blasted, but ironwood hesitates with his gun still pointed at the boy before letting them go. This highlights how on edge he is and makes winter look better for actually trying to talk James out of it, adding context to the line right before the ambush.

Everything goes the same, except when he kills Jacques it’s a bigger deal since this is the first time he’s killed unprovoked and it’s a character we know and who has a relationship with ironwood. Now he can be the big bad villain that shoots people since we’ve had a volume working up to it. Also, when he fights winter, instead of going “don’t blame me winter, I did all these good things and nobody likes me” and she goes “but you did the embargo, that thing I was cool with for four volumes and ultimately had very little negative consequences”, he goes “winter, Salem decimated our military in a matter of hours. Do you think vacuo can protect the staff? Protect our people?” To which she responds “I don’t know, but I refuse to harm those I was sworn to protect. L” Then he says something like “I swore to protect the world, even if that means killing you and ripping the staff from Ruby’s cold dead hands”. Fight happens the same, but now ironwood declared he will kill ruby and is full villain, but still thinks he’s in the right.

Last change for him would be instead of giving up after hearing checkmate, the scene instead cuts to black with a sound of a gunshot, just so we know that he didn’t give up and have it implied he was executed off screen, taking the ambiguity away from his death.

Ruby is a lot simpler to “fix”. First thing first, have her go with penny to amity tower. Have penny fly her there like Superman and Lois. The shippers will eat that up. Next while there, she and Maria fight of neo. This shows how dangerous neo is and highlights ruby beating her later in the bridge world. Also it makes more sense with the two of them fighting neo, since Maria already claimed back in volume 6 that qrow and team Rwby were better huntresses than she was back in her prime. How’s she do better than JNR? Maybe emerald can get involved this time instead of just standing there, but that’s not important. Things go the same way but ruby has to give the speech live instead of watching it on her iPhone drinking hot chocolate. Final change to that set piece is when penny falls, instead of burning up in the atmosphere(?) Ruby jumps after her. I feel this would fix a lot of plot holes like, how did penny end up at the manor despite falling miles and miles away from the city? Ruby helped guide her with her semblance. Why did Ruby go down so easily against the hound and was aura broken by a short fall? She was already banged up from saving penny. Yeah, we don’t get the Blake and ruby at the generator scene, but that scene sucked.

Final change would be in the bridge dimension. Simple fix, Weiss falls before ruby. This makes it so the team falls in reverse name order, YBWR, but also gives penny’s death more meaning, I feel, and also would soothe the FNDM’s hate for jaune. Either ruby is enraged by cinder stabbing her with her stretchy arm, so she rushes to attack and protect her best friend, or jaune keeps cinder busy so Ruby can be the one who ultimately offs her. Either way, it would be in character for Ruby.

With those small changes, I think it fixes my two biggest issues with the volume. Instead of ironwood being crazy and stupid, his decent into villainy is more gradual and paved with good intentions. And now when you ask “What did Ruby even do this volume?” Instead of the answer being “nothing really? She looked a cool grim” it’s “she saved penny from the fall and was a big part of her death”. Also the amity tower plot isn’t useless.

That’s my two cents anyway. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

[skye-huntress]

RWBY V8 Episode 10 “Ultimatum” Reaction

How is there still FOUR MORE EPISODES after that damn cliffhanger. We’ve still got a while to go for the finale and they had got to be more shit the show can throw at us and I’m terrified to find out how they top Ironwood threatening genocide for his idiotic plan that will doom everyone. I’m not sure how much more I can take at this point, but like the masochist I apparently am, I’ll suffer through it anyway

It’s been a while since we’ve seen Jimmy. I’ve said it a thousand times, the man has a desperate need to remain in control of everything, and the more control he loses, or rather the more his illusion of control is shattered, the more desperate be becomes to take back control, whether imaginary or not

It’s confirmed, the birds have escaped their cages. Given Robyn was hurt, Qrow will likely prioritise getting her to safety before doing anything stupid. Which would be a good thing, because it occurred to me Robyn could be very important to dealing with this new problem. More on that later.

No one gives a f@#$ about Jacques Schnee

It’s important to note that the soldiers reporting to Jimmy were practically shitting their pants, and I know it’s not only the Grimm they are afraid of, in fact the Grimm must feel like a secondary threat to them

It seems I was wrong, I thought Oscar would do something to slow Salem down but it seems he made a pretty big explosion. Good thing it didn’t set of the military’s bomb... or maybe not so good.

Seems all of JOYRE made it out and Monstra is dead

Blake finally called Yang

Why am I not surprised Ren suspected Ozpin came back? Even when he’s being busy brooding he’s still really observant

Not as much fallout as I’d expected, especially with Yang’s growing hatred for secrets, but maybe it will come later

Whether Emerald can be forgiven will take time to answer, and depend mostly on her actions but also on whether or not they give her a chance to earn their forgiveness. Seeing the reality of what she was apart of might spur her to seek atonement

Neo seems done with being the pawn of another minion. I knew she was the wild card here, she owes no one loyalty, only her own goals matter

It’s weird seeing Watts call someone else out for acting entitled. Wonder if with all that supposed brain he has comes with self-awareness. And of course he underestimated Penny. She’s not an Atlesian Knight or a Paladin, she has sentience, something that can’t simply be overridden with a computer virus.

The reunion we’ve all been waiting for. Starting with a nice reunion from the sisters, though I doubt the matter about Ruby’s leadership will be resolved anytime soon.

More importantly though, the Bees! It’s not a kiss, maybe still too early for that, but the way they held and looked at each other was the next best thing

Sorry, Renora shippers, looks like you’ll have to wait next week.

Did Emerald just interrupt a RG moment?

Did Jimmy just interrupt a Precious Gems moment? You dick, I don’t even ship but I was actually looking forward to that!

So for perhaps the first time Winter actually thinks for herself for a change and it’s already coming back to bite her. How easily she falls out of favour with Jimmy with one action after years of following his dumbass orders unquestioningly

As for Harriet, she might pretend that she’s being loyal (might even fool herself into believing that is true) but the reality is she is just petty as fuck and only ratted Winter out to get back at her. More than once, she has questioned Jimmy’s orders and I suspect she’d go against them just to settle some silly grudge.

Jimmy is still stuck on his stupid plan to open the vault. Atlas has already been breached, Salem is already there even if she is in pieces, running isn’t an option so what the fuck does he think he’ll accomplish besides removing the only real protection the Staff still has.

Before Volume 8 began, I predicted something. I suspect the someone would try to manipulate Penny into exposing herself by way of threatening hostages. That only part of my prediction I got wrong was that I thought it would be Salem.

Gone from murdering political rivals to using people he had a sworn duty to protect as hostages. He’ll do it, too. He had already written them off to be slaughtered, their lives no longer matter to him. And if he has his way, Penny will open the vault and destroy herself, and it won’t matter what Jimmy does with the Staff, it will be exposed

So, I see two ways to potentially save both Mantle and Penny. The first option is using Emerald’s semblance to decieve Ironwood, he certainly won’t expect that. It has a few holes though, it has to work long enough for Ironwood to give the order to whoever has the bomb to stand down and then neutralise Ironwood so he can’t give new orders. Even then nothing is guaranteed until the bomb is defused or disposed of

The second option, forget Jimmy and the bomb itself, take away the one thing he needs that still gives him any power, his men. Jimmy might have built up the image of a capable and respectable leader, but he’s been pissing it away since Beacon. Right now, he’s telling his soldiers to kill their own people for them, to commit genocide so he can get his way. At this point, instead of serving him out of respect or trust, they follow his orders because they either fear him or fear what they’d be without him. What I think is needed to tip everything over the edge is to give them an alternative leader to follow. Someone charismatic, someone they know, someone to remind them that their job is not to serve one broken man’s agenda but to protect the people. The ideal candidate is Robyn.

Also, if there was a time for Marrow to defect, preventing genocide would be it. Dude, seriously, why aren’t you defecting yet?

[theseerasures]

watch Winter not even be in the elevator with Marrow watch her have covered her ass that he "escaped" from her god why is she LIKE THIS why are we seeing Winter at her absolute best right before we're going to see her at her absolute worst—

GOD okay look

there’s this common sensical thing that people say sometimes, that in moments of crisis you find out who people REALLY are, and i’ve always thought it was bullshit for the same reason i’ve always thought “being drunk reveals who you are” is bullshit, which is that “who you really are” encompasses all of you, and not just whatever uninhibited survival lizard brain emerges in specific situations

but i do think it’s a fabulous tool for fiction, because (most) fiction relies on consistent characterization, so moments of crisis CAN be a precise distillation of All That You Are, in a way that’s contiguous to who you were before. this season has been nothing but one crisis after another, and accordingly we’ve learned who these people are when pushed to their limit. Ironwood is a perfect example of this, but Ruby’s another great one, because what we’ve learned about her is what we’ve always suspected about her: that there comes a time when even her boundless compassion and idealism run dry, so that moments of Ruby at her best--vaporizing the Hound, saving Penny--are interspersed with moments of Ruby at her worst, which are basically...just an overwhelmed seventeen year old girl still grieving for her mother.

and what this season has shown about Winter, who has been in the (literal!) trenches of the crisis, is that Winter is remarkably consistent.

i don’t just mean consistent DURING crisis, the way that her boss has been consistently awful. i mean that you can draw a line for Winter that extends through the current war with Salem, through her outburst at the dinner table, through “you stole an Atlas airship,” all the way to when we first met her, and she almost immediately got into a fight with Qrow. what we’ve learned about Winter through all of this is that though she tries (poorly) to mask it, though she has learned to sometimes use it to her advantage, she is never not the precise distillation of All That She Is, at that exact volume.

Winter’s mind is always in crisis; she spends her entire life anticipating where the next blow will fall--whether on herself, or on someone else. i’ve already waxed poetic on this elsewhere, so i won’t belabor it too much, but. the point is this: i don’t think it’s so much an issue of “Winter’s at her absolute best, therefore she will be at her worst later,” as it is “Winter is always at the same extreme,” which means Winter’s absolute best is never not her absolute worst at the exact same time.

don’t get me wrong: there is a certain euphoria in seeing Winter act in the way she does in Risk. she IS the best of herself there. best in the way James Ironwood defined it when he first took her on as his protege and bodyguard, because she acts quickly and decisively, while even the AceOps are still frozen. but she’s also best in the radically compassionate way that perfectly aligns with the show’s moral thesis, which is why all of us still root for her, even now: Winter does not actually believe in leaving people behind. not absolutely, and not forever. (and we’ve always known this, because we only meet her through Weiss.) i joke about her compulsively imprinting on anyone younger than her, but i think that if it had been Elm, Vine, or even Harriet in Marrow’s position Winter would have done the exact same thing. that’s just what Winter does, and Winter is never not turning her entire identity into a verb.

Winter is at her best here because she achieved a good outcome, the one she was aiming for. but Winter is also at her worst here, in the same way that she has CONSISTENTLY been throughout the show, which is that Winter refuses to take responsibility for anything outside of the immediate instance, and when she does save people, it’s only in a way that does not disturb the status quo. it’s telling that she saved Marrow’s life by attacking Marrow--Marrow, when she could have attacked Ironwood instead--knocked the gun out of his hand, knocked him to the ground, tossed him to the brig, called off the bomb...

but she couldn’t have, really. not only because some part of her still loves James Ironwood, but also because while everyone was looking at Marrow, while no one was looking at her, Winter was triaging the way she always does. and the conclusion she reached is the one she always reaches, which is: she can’t rely on anyone else. certainly not in this situation, when Marrow is the one who NEEDS help, when Elm and Vine stood by and watched as Ironwood raged, when Harriet was the one who turned his ire on her in the first place, when they are all her subordinates, and so--she is alone. and, the part of her that’s still the child in the Manor says, she can’t win this. she can’t do anything.

Maria once told Ruby: you don’t give yourself enough credit, and: that wasn’t a compliment. the same, i think, holds true for Winter, but the difference is that Ruby still tries in big ways, even when she can’t acknowledge the fruits of her labor, while Winter...Winter had the trying beaten out of her a long time ago. that’s why she saved Marrow’s life in that way, and that’s why the coin of what Winter is gonna do after still feels like it’s flipping in the air. maybe she isn’t in the elevator because of what you said! maybe she is, but because she was GENUINELY going to put Marrow in the brig, because at least there he’d be safe. maybe they’re both there and ready to defect. maybe neither of them are on the elevator at all.

predicting what’s gonna happen next this season is as always a ludicrous venture, but (*puts on my jester’s hat in preparation for being wrong*): much as i’m loathe to ruin everyone’s excitement over team BRAS, i don’t think Winter is leaving Atlas Command. that’s the whole point of doing what she did; she’s evacuating the boat, not rocking it. that’s what she’s always done: we’ll drop you off as close as we can to the monster. i’m giving you a head start. a head start so no one will catch them, but also a head start so that she can remain behind, watch their backs. women and children first. everyone else first, including--even now--the man she wishes was her father. and only then herself.

and when it comes to Winter in the end, likely more alone than we’ve ever seen her...we are going to see the worst of her, but only because we always do. it’ll look less like a Final Choice, and more like the non-choices she’s been making coming home to roost. sooner or later Ironwood will realize that part of the reason he’s running out of pieces to play is because of her, and sooner or later Winter will realize that at some point you’re not leaving me has turned into i’m not leaving.

it turns out when you make enough non-choices, they slip into choices anyway. and Winter has only ever made one kind of non-choice, an infinitesimal sidestep to avoid disturbing the universe, so the outcome of these things depend entirely on the context. the outcomes so far have been favorable, so it’s possible (probable?) that, like with Ironwood last season, we’re due for a reversal. at the same time, though, Ultimatum introduces the obvious wrinkle: that an outcome good for the world isn’t necessarily good for Winter. it’s possible that that will hold true again for her in the end.

or it’s possible that the reverse will be true instead.

[toooldforfandom-liveblogs]

RWBY V08E01 - Divide

V8 is here!

Sadly, the hype I had for V7 is nowhere to be found this volume. V7 left me cautious. The way it used social injustice as little more than window dressing while doing nothing to address it was enough to leave a bad taste in my mouth, and has ended up being the only season I didn’t immediately rewatch or seek reactions to it. Hell, I still haven’t listened to the soundtrack.

But, weird issues aside, it’s still RWBY and I’m still excited to watch it so here we are! Let’s do this!

Note: I’ve managed to remain mostly unspoiled with the sole exception of hearing this volume is supposed to take place over two days, so yay?

Of all the things I expected this season to start with, Cinder's backstory wasn't one of them. That girl is Cinder, right? Cinderella and all that.

Yyup, Cinder. Wow, seven seasons before giving her a slightly more tangible backstory, maybe to humanize her a bit? Bold strategy, considering everything she's done, let's see how it plays out.

Neo has to be questioning her choices really hard. I know she's on the revenge path but it's one thing to work with Cinder and another to fly directly into a flying Grimm whale.

It's interesting that they chose to have a similar intro as in Volume 4, with someone who doesn't quite know what they got into. Back then it was Emerald and Mercury watching the pools of Grimm, now it's Neo walking into a giant whale.

Neo knows what Cinder is capable of. She's seen her maiden powers first hand. Hell, she knows how charming her personality is. And now she's seeing her kneel before someone. Can't be confidence inspiring.

Tsk, tsk, Neo, I expected she'd know by now her place in Cinder's ranking.

oh god no, please not another failed hug

What's the opposite of a glow up? Because Hazel went through that.

I'm intrigued. The glimpse of Cinder's past where she was completely powerless and now this dressing down. Is she lying through her teeth right now or does she genuinely believe that since Salem presumably rescued her from her previous life?

Interesting choice to not only hide her eyes behind her hair but to also present her Grimm side to the camera while she's saying this, hiding her expression even further.

Salem seems more evil than usual, but maybe she's just on the top of the world after having acquired a relic and having her army on Atlas' doorstep.

I can't quite tell what I'm looking at here. Maybe another angle of Atlas? It looks really weird from the side.

First faunus with animal hands? I guess Ghira had retractable claws.

They are looking quite calm considering there's a giant whale in their sky. Unless they can't see it. They are in a hole surrounded by stone after all. But still, it'd be interesting characterization to have them so used to being screwed over by life that they saw the giant whale and went "Huh. I guess it's Tuesday."

Weiss would definitely know about that.

I'm curious about the coordination that's been happening behind the scenes. How does she know that's a friendly ship?

I guess at least some time has passed, since Yang, Blake and Penny aren't with them.

Very inconspicuous to destroy a droid.

Not a lot of time though, since Ren is still brooding alone. Very intrigued by the picture in the background.

Nothing says that the time for silly shenanigans is gone better than this.

I guess enough people saw Pietro and Maria running around to make them fugitives. On the bright side, it still says "detain," not "kill"

Ironwood literally shot a child, that's pretty important information to keep secret. Even if he is the child who got shot. How long before this bites someone in the ass?

I wonder if the couple in the background are the founders of the happy huntresses. The one with the eyepatch looks a lot like Robyn, enough to maybe be her mom?

Also makes it a lot easier to threaten with overwhelming force to get something from Ironwood but I guess he already gave them up.

Uuh, I like this.

I thought that after V5 the team wouldn't separate again. And if the season is really going to cover just a couple of days, it almost doesn't count. So, it keeps the all the character development from V4 and V5 (that the team is their home) but gives them enough time to breath on their own.

It's also interesting that they seeded this during the last season. RWBY has shown some long term planning but this makes all the in-fighting and arguments from the last season make sense.

If they do split up, I think Blake would go with Ruby. She's always been on the pragmatic side of things. And it adds more drama to split her from Yang, last season was all about how well they work together (and flirting). Hopefully this'd mean that she'd talk with Ruby more than once this season.

It looks like Ren is joining team Yang, which would leave Nora with Ruby if only because they seem to need to do their own thing right now. I'm not sure how it'd fit with Nora's interest in Mantle though.

Everyone else I'm not sure about.

Weiss could go either way. Maybe she feels guilty about Mantle or maybe she feels like she could help infiltrate the military compound. Although that could lead her to meet Winter which I doubt she wants right now. Maybe she's too recognizable to help Ruby.

I think Penny is going to go team Yang. Protector of Mantle after all. And it'd make Ruby's arc more interesting to have less of her usual friends next to her.

I feel Oscar would make more sense in the infiltration side of things and warning the world seems like something Ozpin would try to do.

Jaune I have no idea. Maybe whatever team doesn't get Weiss?

yup

Okay, easy guesses out of the way.

Oh, honey.

Yesss, personal feelings.

Damn, she looks incredibly badass.

Huh.

I guess Weiss is going with Ruby then.

This is tense! I actually had a moment of dread the second everyone noticed it was Penny's scroll.

And Penny just had her remaining faith in Ironwood completely destroyed.

I can already see this season is going to break my heart again.

Harriet is literally pouting. Probably pretty humiliating to have been beaten by some academy dropouts.

Welp, only a human leg left.

Feels pretty on the nose to have him literally lose part of his human body to show how he's been losing his humanity.

Well, that took a turn.

I'm glad they are taking a possible redemption (other than death) completely off the table for Ironwood. I know shooting Oscar was bad but no one knows about that. There's no way to hide this.

Those are not the expressions of people thinking "huh, maybe I'm doing the wrong thing here"

Hm. I guess Oscar is getting kidnapped. By a Grimm?

Is this the first time a RWBY season premiere doesn't have a fight? I think it is, even V5 had Yang punching someone. Not that I'm complaining, I do like talky episodes.

My first thought after the first scene with Salem and company was that there were at least a couple of players not entirely happy with their situation. Cinder is somewhat of a mystery but Neo is way over her head and obviously not happy about being an "asset." Emerald got rebuffed again even after spending two seasons crying for Cinder.

There's a parallel between Salem and Cinder, and Cinder and Emerald I assume is intentional. If Salem rescued Cinder from her Cinderella situation, the similarities would be even more visible, with Cinder giving Emerald a life outside of simple survival. However, while Salem is firm about Cinder's position as a pawn, she does value her. She knows how to play that particular game of emotional give and take. Cinder doesn't. She has never shown Emerald any appreciation. How much further can she push Emerald before she accepts Cinder doesn't care about her?

I'd say Emerald is prime material for turning sides but I wonder... we haven't had a death on the enemies side yet. Even Watts survived. Emerald could be the first. Maybe to show how far gone Cinder is, or as revenge from Neo. And the death of someone who's at least doubting they are in the right place would hit harder that someone who is drinking Salem's kool-aid.

Anyway. I feel this first episode set-up a comparison between all three sides. Salem's forces hate each other, the "good guys" split but they still like and respect each other.

Somehow Salem's downfall (or slowing down?) this volume is going to be tied to the RWBY and JNPR teams working together and trusting each other despite their differences. Which, well, duh, but still.

Ironwood's are a bit more vague, they seem to be solidifying behind him but I'm not sure where it's going yet. Maybe Marrow could defect? Although that still seems like the too-obvious choice. In any case, freeing Qrow and Robyn would be good first step by whoever ends up switching sides.

I'm curious about a lot of things (What's going to be Penny's arc this volume?) but I think that's all for now. Until next time!

[shinobirain24]

Adam Taurus Quotes

Vs. Blake Belladonna

1) Blake: You're still not going to get away with this, Adam!

Adam: Think you can stop me?

Blake: We'll just have to see to it.

2) Blake: You're not going anywhere near my team!

Adam: Go ahead and try. I'll still make sure you mourn before you die.

Blake: I'll make sure this does not happened.

3) Adam: I still haven't forgiven you when you left the White Fang.

Blake: I already won when I got away from you.

Adam: If this is how it is, then so be it.

Vs. Tyrian Callows

1) Tyrian: So you wish that I bleed that former partner of your?

Adam: Name your price, Tyrian! Blake Belladonna must pay for what she done!

Tyrian: Because it's personal, I have a price to name.

Vs. Sun Wukong

1) Adam: Everyone calls me a monster

Sun: Sheesh, can you blame them? You're insane.

Adam: You will be one of the thousands in my bloodbath.

2) Adam: Join the White Fang, Wukong.

Sun: And forever wear that creepy mask? No thanks.

Adam: You just lost your opportunity.

3) Adam: Make no mistake, you and Blake are on my hit list.

Sun: You forgot one thing. Blake and I are an unstoppable team.

Adam: Well then, I will out an end to this cause of yours.

Vs. Sage Ayana

1) Sage: I am going to say this once. You are a monster.

Adam: You despise me for being a Faunus, human?

Sage: For being a maniacal killer, Adam.

2) Sage: Have you not thought of the feelings of your fellow faunus before you started killing them?

Adam: Faunus that associates with humans should be punished.

Sage: You're wrong. There are other ways to bring equality.

Vs. Ruby Rose

1) Ruby: I won't let you get away with hurting my sister!

Adam: Oh, so the Blondie I bled so badly was your sister?

Ruby: That's right, and I will avenge her!

2) Adam: Turn yourself in, silver-eyed human.

Ruby: No, I won't let you kill anyone else!

Adam: Your loss.

3) Ruby: I heard from Blake that you're crazy.

Adam: Tell me where she is, or I will...

Ruby: Never.

Vs. Arthur Watts

1) Watts: Our queen declines your request.

Adam: To help her, I need an army of faunus!

Watts: You're already enough for her to handle.

Vs. Corsac Albain

1) Adam: You dared to betray your fellow Faunus for the Black Vipers, Corsac?

Corsac: It's better than to live as your loyal subjects.

Adam: You have crossed the line this time.

2) Adam: Where is your loyalty standing, Corsac?

Corsac: With Zerena Slithers, High Leader of the Black Vipers.

Adam: You're just the same of a defect as Belladonna.

3) Adam: Rejoin the White Fang, and you'll see your brother avenged.

Corsac: Never, you're responsible for Fennec's death. Not the chieftain's daughter.

Adam: She has relinquished our honor!

4) Corsac: Join us against Salem.

Adam: Hmph! And forever be a tool to those humans in the Black Vipers?

Corsac: It's better as Zerena's partner than Salem's and Cinder's slaves.

Vs. Ilia Amitola

1) Ilia: Don't think we have forgotten that you killed Sienna.

Adam: She has not seen the true meaning of the vision we all had.

Ilia: Well at least she knows what is necessary and what is not.

2) Adam: You betrayed us, Ilia!

Ilia: I am done killing humans for one day.

Adam: Then I will make sure you will see the last of me.

3) Ilia: Blake was right about you.

Adam: She left our organization to be in smithereens.

Ilia: You will be cleansed of your insanity.

Vs. Rin Jin

1) Rin: Bow down before your future empress.

Adam: I am not going to allow myself to kneel, human.

Rin: I am not pleased.

2) Adam: I will not join your clan one bit, human scum.

Rin: You Faunus should be servants.

Adam: Not in a million years will that ever happen.

Vs. Zerena Slithers

1) Adam: Cinder will pay for the White Fang to be disbanded.

Zerena: For that, you will take command of my army.

Adam: I am not here to become your tool, Slithers.

2) Zerena: We Faunus will have to cooperate with humans, whether we like it or not.

Adam: Humans should obey.

Zerena: It's no wonder why I never wanted to recruit you.

3) Zerena: If you want revenge, take it out on Cinder.

Adam: In that case, you're next on my list.

Zerena: Then you will fear me.

4) Adam: You reek of human blood.

Zerena: So what of my dads' a human?

Adam: What I hate most of all.

5) Adam: One day you will turn the White Fang against me!

Zerena: What else had Cinder fed of your future?

Adam: That to preserve it, you will die.

Vs. Winter Schnee

1) Adam: Your sister will die, because of your family's deception.

Winter: Bring her back to me at once, Taurus.

Adam: Never! You Schnees will feel my pain!

2) Winter: Adam Taurus, you are under arrest.

Adam: For what?

Winter: For numerous of crimes you have committed with the White Fang.

3) Adam: Your General failed us Faunus.

Winter: There was nothing we can do.

Adam: Oh, don't make me laugh.

4) Winter: Last chance to surrender, Taurus.

Adam: As if I would take orders from the likes of you humans.

Winter: I'll have to detain you myself.

5) Winter: The return of the beast.

Adam: Yes, Schnee. I have return.

Winter: Only to fail again.

Vs. Cinder Fall

1) Adam: The scheming witch returns

Cinder: And here I thought I could be granted a request.

Adam: I will not fall for your tricks this time.

2) Adam: My people turned against me because of you.

Cinder: You're one to talk. You just agree to it.

Adam: This time, no requests from you.

3) Cinder: Faunus like you shall make great servants to my master.

Adam: We will not be your servants, Fall.

Cinder: Then you'll be kissed by death for your pride.

4) Adam: How did my fellow White Fang members get wiped out?

Cinder: I whispered into Salem's ears, and your people dies.

Adam: You did not threatened the faunus, you human scum.

Vs. Marrow Amin

1) Marrow: The new Atlas Military will never fall beneath your feet.

Adam: One of your men have sworn their oaths to me years ago.

Marrow: That was before they realized their wrongs.

2) Adam: Why does a faunus like you serve the military that neglected the Faunus?

Marrow: Because I believed so far that it takes time for things to change.

Adam: So far, your army fails.

3) Marrow: Under General Schnee's orders. You are under arrest.

Adam: That Schnee is now General?!

Marrow: She has lead with equality and realization.

4) Marrow: You choose allies very poorly.

Adam: You're right, this way it will make short work.

Marrow: I don't want to hurt you, but you lead me no choice.

Vs. Juno Vasilias

1) Juno: You and I are so much alike, Adam.

Adam: Both written off as monsters and lashed out.

Juno: Together, they will be proven weak.

2) Adam: You reek with half-Grimm blood.

Juno: What? Oh, I am the master piece of Arthur Watts.

Adam: Not for long, Juno.

3) Adam: You're a clone, not Jupiter's sister.

Juno: In some ways that mattered, I am.

Vs. Shadow

1) Adam: We have met before.

Shadow: In the underworld, where I collected your soul.

Adam: I will have back for what is mine.

2) Adam: Coming out of the shadows, Pluto?

Shadow: To teach you a lesson of what happens when you turn your back on your people.

Adam: I'm done with the lectures.

3) Shadow: Your soul is tainted.

Adam: Because I was a faunus?

Shadow: No, your soul is tainted by your corruption.

4) Adam: Just because you rule the underworld, doesn't mean you can take me there.

Shadow: Death has written it's fate for you.

Adam: This time it leaves empty-handed.

[koeniginschnee]

As many are doing after the latest volume, I do have a canon divergent verse in the works in which Penny lives. Now, hear me out. My long time followers probably are well aware of my default maiden verse that I’ve held on to since maidens were announced and Winter was present all the way back in volume 3. You can pull this from my cold dead hands. This will continue not only in my canon compliant threads, but most divergent ones as well.

Since there might be some unpopular opinions below the read more, the nice TLDR version of it is Penny lives and Winter is the maiden. Yay she’s alive! This does not mean I won’t write verses where Penny is alive and the maiden, but that is not my default. 

Now for the salt/further explanation as to why my default verses are this way:

PENNY DIDN’T NEED TO DIE.

This probably isn’t the most unpopular thought, and I’m not even touching the coded arguments and whatnot as I am not in a position of being able to speak for the community on that matter. This is purely that volume 8 didn’t have to go quite like this. It comes off as only being written this way to get a character out of the way.

I make this statement because they could have given Winter the Maiden powers from the start and avoided Penny’s death this whole time. Yes, Winter calls the powers a “gift” at the end of volume 8 and I am not denying that Penny gifted her them. HOWEVER, the line by Ironwood has rubbed me the wrong way since it came up. Basically him saying he chose this for her. And in a way, sure. He proposed the idea to her, but in volume 7 Winter makes it clear to Weiss that this is HER choice and she WANTS to do this.

Volume 7, Ep. 5 - Sparks, timestamp 16:15 is where the conversation starts regarding the Maiden powers. Eventually we hit this part of the conversation:

Weiss: Doesn’t it bother you? He practically groomed your whole military career.

Winter: It did at first, when the General first proposed it to me. But the more I thought about it, the more I saw it as a privilege, a chance to do some real good for Atlas. For Remnant.

Weiss: But your destiny was chosen for you, without your input.

Winter: Perhaps, but I am choosing it now. I’ve made it my own. And I take great pride in it. That has nothing to do with Father, or the General.... That belongs to me.

Weiss: I guess we’ve both had to do a little bit of that. Carving out our own way.

Winter has made this decision for herself. Yes, it was prompted by someone else, but that was an option that she otherwise would have been oblivious to. She has accepted the responsibility to do this for others. “For Remnant.”

Penny, on the other hand, earlier in the same episode confides in Ruby that she wishes she had the time to do what she’s “supposed to do” and what she “wants to do.” This is a person with responsibility she never chose for herself. She does it because who else will? Who else is going to be “the Protector of Mantle?” She wants to be a normal girl. Much like Ruby wanted for herself in volume 1. 

Penny has a good heart and wants to help people, but she also didn’t ask for all of this.

Now how does this play into what happens at the end of volume 7 and through volume 8 and still come out with the same (basically) situation at the end of the most recent volume? Let me explain.

In the fight with Cinder where Fria is dying and asks Penny if she’s the one, Penny could then instead remind her of Winter (we have seen Fria’s memory to be brief and fading) in an attempt to save Winter from the damage and fight of Cinder’s fight. Ruby still shows up, uses silver eyes and Cinder escapes but with Winter as the Maiden instead. However, she’s still injured and still in the military. 

Things have gone according to plan for Winter getting the powers BUT team RWBY are still fugitives. Penny can still leave with them at Winter’s encouragement to give them a head start out of trouble.

Now how would this play into things that go in volume 8?

Salem is at their doorstep, using the Staff to go higher won’t do much against a flying whale, so let’s take care of that first. Winter, go take care of that with the Ace Ops and come right back and then we can get at the Staff. 

Okay, let’s go with that. Events unfold just as they did in the volume on that front. But what about the virus? Is there a point? Eh.... Could take it or leave it. Watts did have a personal vendetta against Pietro anyway, so I could see him just getting into the systems and doing that all sneaky like just to be an ass without the Maiden powers at stake. 

Winter already has been shown to be a good person at heart and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. She just grew up very much a victim of abuse and unfortunately “tough love” was her way of trying to be strong and caring at the same time. 

I have more thoughts on that, but this is not the post for it.

Because of this, she would still choose to protect Marrow and defect when it becomes painfully obvious there’s no convincing Ironwood to change his mind (I’ll also do canon divergence with Ironwood rpers that want to do different things, but for the sake of this post, let’s assume everything happens the same way minus the Maiden powers and Penny’s death). Then she actively assists RWBY and company through to the end of volume 8.

Then what of Penny?

Penny is still a very capable individual who is (outside of the virus mess) able to disobey orders. She just doesn’t like to, so it’s not like she can’t CHOOSE to live her life as she wants or help others while trying to figure out what she wants out of her life. Let her help with the evacuation. And if Ironwood really wanted to blackmail her into coming back, even without the powers, he could use Winter’s injured state to guilt her. Something like “Winter needs protection and you left her at risk of death when you abandoned us” or whatever. Not that it would work, necessarily but definitely a way to keep close to what happened without killing her off.

Then what of the gift?

She would have already given it. By telling Fria it was Winter who was meant to give the power, she would have kept with the decision Winter made for herself and gave her the chance to finally have done something for herself instead of her Father’s decisions or what the General demanded. We already addressed that Winter CHOSE THIS FOR HERSELF. A woman who constantly had choices made for her growing up and in her career FINALLY had a decision to make for herself (and one she was making to do something good for Remnant as a whole) had it stolen from her by the writers in canon. I do not put Penny at fault for this as she was basically used as a plot device to be offed when convenient it seemed. 

Winter made one choice for herself, and the writers take that away and then present it as a GIFT instead??? That’s kind of a slap in the face. Which is ultimately why I’ve typed up this post to explain why my default verses are the way they are. This is not to be an insult to Penny the character or Penny rpers. This is out of annoyance that they went and made two female characters with so much potential lose a part of themselves in how things were executed. 

I could probably make this more coherent if I took the time to proof read and work out more points that I have about this (trust me, I have many) BUT this post is already long enough and I think basically covers why I’ve made this decision. 

[swapauanon]

Last Minute Volume 8 Part 2 Theories

Penny and Cinder

Watts will die the same way the Madame did, strangled to death by a child he tried to exploit while desperately using technology to try and regain control of her. Cinder will bear witness to this, and will, for the very first time since learning of Penny’s true nature, regard her as a person instead of a machine. She’ll still try to kill her for the Maiden Power, but throughout the entire battle with the badly beaten and exhausted Penny, will not make any attacks on Penny’s personhood out of newfound respect for her.

But when she actually wins, and goes for the killing blow, she won’t see Penny Polendina: she’ll see her younger self. And that brief moment of hesitation will be enough for Penny to get away as Cinder quietly reflects on her actions for the past 8 Volumes.

Oscar’s Redemption Train

Emerald will help Oscar escape with the Lamp of Knowledge, while Hazel will probably end up dying to help JOYRE (the E is for Emerald) to escape.

Winter’s Fall

Winter and the Ace Ops will run into Salem, who’ll seduce them to her side against Ironwood by appealing to their emotions. For Winter, Elm, and Vine, she’ll appeal to their loyalty to Atlas and basically point out how Ironwood’s mismanagement has gotten so many people killed, and how sacrificing him might be their only option. For Marrow, she’ll appeal to the fact that the Military has rewarded his loyalty with nothing but abuse since Day 1, playing off of his hatred of his coworkers. For Harriet, she’ll take advantage of her misplaced anger and promise to help her get even with Ruby. To sweeten the deal, she’ll even heal Winter’s injuries, while lamenting that magic can’t cure infections. When Marrow shows himself to be unsure of his current course of action, Winter will try to be reassuring (as seen by that trailer shot where Winter’s hand is conspicuously missing the braces she has to wear to walk).

Why Ironwood Freaked Out

When we see that trailer shot of Ironwood’s panicked reaction to something off screen: I came to the conclusion that, in the show itself, it’ll be the last time we see Ironwood alive.

Something will happen when the camera cuts away, but when it cuts back, we’ll see one of two things:

Penny strangling Watts to death while covered in Ironwood’s blood.

Winter standing over Ironwood’s corpse as her new Ironwood summon orders the Atlesian Army to stand down and announces that Atlas is surrendering and submitting to Salem’s rule. Neo will use her Semblance to make the Summon look like Ironwood while Cinder uses her Semblance to dispose of his corpse.

Either way, Winter will make Salem the Queen of Atlas, who’ll order the Military to open fire on the reinforcements Ruby called for.

The Hound

Will be revealed to have Summer inside of it. Cinder will witness the Hound regenerating around Summer’s body and realize THAT is what Salem plans to turn her into.

Marrow’s Arc

While Marrow will pretend to be okay with joining Salem’s faction, he will take the soonest opportunity to flee and defect to the hero’s side as soon as the fighting stops, as he knows that there’s not much he can do if Salem kills them.

Raven’s Role

Raven, Taiyang, and Zwei (who is still a good boy) will arrive and join up with Yang’s group, with Raven very clearly having not learned her lesson and still being a self-serving coward, at which point it will be revealed that QROW was the only one unaware that Raven was the Spring Maiden, instead thinking that Yang was and just didn’t know how to close the Vault. While Yang never said that Raven was the Spring Maiden, everyone else was able to piece it together from context clues and just didn’t press it, Ozpin not wanting to force Yang to discuss something she clearly wasn’t ready for (Yang feeling somewhat guilty for lashing out at Ozpin after learning this).

Raven, however, will die in the final episode in a purely performative heroic sacrifice where she detonates the bomb to destroy the Monstra, raining the Grimm Liquid contained within on Atlas and Mantle and causing a huge chunk of Atlas to collapse into the Crater. She only does this AFTER Salem has already relocated to Ironwood’s office and her final words before getting vaporized in the blast will be a spiteful “Now it’s your problem, daughter!” even though Yang isn’t there to hear her.

Blake however, will have heard from Marrow that the last he had seen of Yang she had gone in to rescue Oscar, and state that last he heard of it, Oscar was still imprisoned by Salem.

The Final Shot Before the Credits Role

Just as all hope seems lost, reinforcement from Mistral and Menagerie will arrive, setting the stage for Volume 9.

Where Do We Go From Here?

JOYR and RWBN will reunite in V9C1 and swap notes.

Yang, upon learning that Summer is still alive and inside the Hound, will come to the realization that her REAL mother is still alive and decide that she will find and rescue her mother.

Cinder will be left alone, having driven away Emerald, while Neo will have found a way into Salem’s inner circle. With nothing to do but reflect, she comes to the (rightful) conclusion that she’s a monster, and decides that the only way to atone is with her own blood. From this point until she’s finally freed of the Shadow Hand (the official name of her Grimm Arm), she’ll be a death seeker.

Winter, Elm, and Vine will be morally conflicted, and if Winter killed Ironwood herself, she’ll try and consult her Ironwood Summon for advice. Either way, she’ll have officially alienated her family.

With Hazel and Watts dead and Tyrian and Mercury in Vacuo, Salem will use Neo and the Ace Ops to replace her followers.

RWBYJRON will reconcile with Ozpin.

Emerald will develop a guilt-complex and start treating Penny the way she used to treat Cinder, much to Penny’s concern.

Yang and Blake will get to meet each other’s parents. Awkward hilarity ensues.

Ironwood is dead and nobody cares except for Winter.

Cordovin will show up with the reinforcements and she and Maria will find come to the horrifying realization that they are, for once, on the same side and have to work together.

Volume 9 Opening Guesses

We’ll have a shot of Salem placing a white king on a chess board. The white queen will turn into Winter as the king turns into either a Seer (if Penny killed Ironwood) or an Ironwood Summon (if Winter killed him) and the rest of the pieces turn into Winter’s other Summons, as the black pieces turn into the heroes, with the Black King turning into the Staff of Creation and Penny being the Black Queen (ironically enough).

The Happy Huntresses will fight Winter and the Ace Ops who haven’t defected yet, Robyn vs Harriet, Fiona vs Vine, Joanna vs Elm, and May vs Winter.

There’ll be a shot referencing the V7 OP where Weiss stands with her mother, Whitley, and Klein before the snow sweeps that image away to reveal Winter standing alone.

There’ll be a shot of Cinder glaring hatefully at her Beacon Arc self as the image of Amber materializes behind her, before Yang and Penny show up, the images of Raven and Fria behind them. All three will be using their Maiden Powers.

We’ll get a shot of Ruby, Taiyang, Yang, and Qrow reaching out for Summer, who gets dragged into the shadows, only for the Hound to lunge out to meet them.

Maria and Cordovin will awkwardly shake hands while glaring at each other and visibly tightening their grips to try and get the other to let go.

The final shot will be the Vault of the Winter Maiden opening to reveal the Monty Oum credit every OP closes on.