#Code 66

[magnetic-braincells]

Too Old?

Fem!Reader x Kim • One-shot

Warnings: Slight gerontophile themes, overall sfw, unrequited attraction. Cursing. Violence. Mental struggles. Read till the end! I swear you come to your senses.

Word count: 5k+

I wasn’t expecting to be walking outside a government building around six pm, but here I was.

Files in my hands, I was trying to my best to be an ideal intern. All I had to do was transfer some papers and I’d be done for the day. So that’s what I did. I handed the papers to a woman in the lobby, and opted to go through the building to the parking lot. The thing is I’m not great at remembering directions. The nice lady gave me clear instructions that seem to evaporate in my head the moment I began walking away. I was a senior in college. Just trying to get through my internship hoping to get a job as a secretary or some sh*t. I was interning for an office job here at a government building. I had no idea about any bad apples employed there until that day. I must’ve taken a wrong turn. My introversion didn’t want to ask for directions, and my extroversion decided to find a way out myself. I turned into a hallway, and— hardly stopping myself— almost slammed into a man.

“Sorry,” I said, ducking towards the other side of the hall. The apology wasn’t enough for him, apparently. “Watch where you’re going-!” He barked. It did make me flinch, I’ll admit. I stopped in my tracks, almost feeling a little annoyed. Yeah… I apologized. What happened to manners? I turned to the man, taking in his appearance. Tall, a little brutish. I caught sight of some pins that no doubt meant something important. Damn. If this guy is of some significance, maybe I should’ve keep my mouth shut. At least, that’s what I thought.

“Sorry, I will.”

I turned to walk away still a little put off. Then I felt his hand clasp around my wrist and yank me backwards. I did yelp, and curse at him— heat of the moment sort of a thing

“Show some respect, b*tch,” he breathed. His breath smelt like smoke. Very unpleasant.

I wiggled away from him, slamming my heel into his toe. The officer raised his hand to grab me, and I was prepared with a mouthful of profanity and slander but… Before I could get in another word, I pressed into something warm and hard. Really solid. I stumbled forward.

That’s when I saw him. I had to crane my neck up/down (your height) to really look at him. Must’ve been 6’2. Glasses. Not the neatest hair, but it was still elegant. An angel? A demon? He looked like both. He sort of was.

The new stranger sort of— completely- ignored me. I swallowed a thick lump in my throat. It was partially out of nervousness, but I was also swallowing down a million insults. He stared at the officer. An expression of anger, possibly indifference.

“You should go.”

That was all he said. Three words. I walked away down the hall, a little confused. Words were still caught in my throat that would never get out. The hallway didn’t lead outside. There were familiar rooms, though. I could find my way out, but I hesitated. I wanted to wait. I wanted to thank that man for… sort of stepping in. At least, I think that’s what he did. It didn’t matter though. I stood idly against the wall, waiting for the older man to reappear.

When he did, he looked different. He had more purpose to his walk, and he had some papers in his hand. I noticed, too, that his hands were red.

“S-Sir—?” Since when did I stammer? Social anxiety was finally creeping in? I thought I was over this.

He stopped, casting a sharp glance over at me. His hardened features and cold look softened a bit. It wasn’t very noticeable, and maybe I was just searching for some sort of reaction. His glasses glinted and he was silent.

“Thank you. For stepping in back there,” I finished. My cheeks felt warm.

He kept quiet. The corners of his lips perked upward a little. Barely at all. He didn’t nod, didn’t hum in acknowledgment. He just turned and kept walking.

To me, nothing could have been more attractive.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

I spent the rest of the night eating, getting ready for the next day, and thinking about that encounter. Sure, I only saw the guy for a minute or two at most, but that was the most exciting thing that had happened to me all month. No, I didn’t like being grabbed or having to mouth off my superior who I’d never met. But that man… the one with the nice hair and the glasses… he was just one of those guys. Not overly handsome, but not bad to look at. The kind of person who gets stapled into your mind. I wondered what he was doing there in the first place. How old was he.

More questions kept flooding my head the next day and the day after that. Actually, this was becoming a problem. I couldn’t get the guy out of my mind and I had no idea why.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

Sogin High School. I graduated from there and am a certified alumni. I was headed there, probably four days after the incident. Normally I wouldn’t spent my free day visiting my old school, but a teacher had called me up and asked me to come. I decided to humor her. She had been a nice teacher anyways. The campus was still the same. The elitists ran rampant, like always. I sort of felt sorry for the poor children stuck in their immature high school years. I had bigger problems. I was still immature too I guess. My thoughts would wander to the man every now and then. I looked for him in crowds. Part of me felt disappointed about his seeming disregard for me and my gratitude.

I looked for his face amongst the crowd of high schoolers. Passing by the old classrooms and intermingling with my underclassman felt weird. I kept close to my teacher pal, but ended up wandering off.

“It was nice to see you, (Y/N),” she had said. It had come as a surprise to her to see me as a twenty-three-year old. She was probably expecting my face to be more/less mature (any baby faced readers out there??)

“You too, Ms Han,” I answered. I meant it, but being around her warm and smiley face was giving me painful flashbacks to my acne-prone days, and her personality was a little stuffy after a while. It was nice to escape.

I walked towards some of my old classrooms. As I peered into a classroom, I caught sight of a lone girl. A sophomore- carrying way more books than she could handle. Oh school projects. I didn’t miss those at all. I was always awkward about offering help, especially to strangers. My internship was prompting me to step out of my shell though.

“Uh… do you need some help?” I called. She looked up at me. She seemed familiar, features graceful and delicate. I’d never met her before though. Her lips parted as she nodded. I’m guessing it was obvious that I was an alumni. “Yes— please!”

I walked into the classroom fully, approaching her desk that was completely emerged in the sunlight. If I remembered correctly, I’d say my desk was two seats behind hers. I scooped up half of her heaping books. the girl couldn’t even fit them all in her backpack. This must be some research project.

“I’m (Y/N), by the way,” I offered. She staggered upright with the rest of the books in hand.

“Oh… and I’m Minji Kim. Nice to meet you,” she replied, a little breathless. She added a small thank you, which I thought was sweet.

She walked home. I accompanied her. I wasn’t in any hurry to get back to my college dorm and I had already said my goodbyes to my old teacher, Ms Han. We walked down a few blocks, exchanging a few words. I handed her the rest of her books as soon as her house was in sight.

“Thanks for your help!” She gushed. Nice girl. I waved it off and began to turn around, but I stopped. That’s when I saw him again.

This time in casual clothes, peering out of one of the houses, looking a little damp and rumpled, but relaxed. It caught me off guard— all I could do was stare wordlessly and question every life decision I ever made. He called for Minji to come inside (so they knew each other-?), and even waved at me. He didn’t even recognize me… I don’t think. I waved back. A feeling of warmth pounded through my body and filled my cheeks. The walk back to the school parking lot was very disoriented. I stumbled over my shoes and almost crashed into a cyclist. I wasn’t expecting to see him again. It was a really odd coincidence. Too odd for me. It didn’t sit well in my stomach.

My inner musings about the man, who I now dubbed Mr Kim, became more frequent. I had seen him twice. It felt like having an airport crush sort of. Only you booked the same hotel as your airport crush, or something similar. It plagued me to the point that, the next day at my internship, I asked about him. He must’ve been at the office for one reason or another. It was possible that he worked there.

“Hey… Chae-Won?” I asked my mentor who was way too invested in reapplying her lipstick. She glanced over at me and absently straightened some papers, still preening at herself in the reflection of her computer screen. “Was there a Mr Kim visiting last week?” I began. I cringed in realization that Kim is a very common last name. Something flashed over her face. “Uh, there was an incident with a Mr Kim, if that’s what you mean. I think you were headed home though.” “Does he work here?” I pressed. “No? Why do you ask?”

I resorted to telling her there was no reason.

It wasn’t as if he was plaguing my thoughts. I don’t know why he bothered me so much. I started to drop it a little. Life moves on. I wasn’t obsessed. I steamed some rice that night and binged a drama. Anything to get my mind off “Mr Kim” was a relief. He was giving me a headache, and at the same time making me hot in the face. I kept wondering how old he was. He was older. He was courser and colder. He had stepped into a very minor interaction at my intern workplace. There was nothing notable about what he did.

But still bothered me though. He hadn’t accepted my thanks, not really. I had seen a reaction, but a very slight one.

I tried to recall how his voice sounded as I clumsily shoved a mouthful of rice into my mouth. The heat burned the roof of my mouth, actually, and I had to spit it out. My daydreams about that guy were actually interfering with my eating habits, which wasn’t good. Anyway- he had only said three words to me, tops. You should go. It was enough to make my heartbeat pick up pace.

I was actually a little worried, at that point. If this guy was going to haunt my thoughts until he accepted the damn “thank you,” then I was going to have to see him and make him accept it.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

I ended up back in the sophomore classroom. “Can I ask you something?” I said suddenly.

This conversation was going to be a little awkward. I could feel my embarrassment already creeping in. This wasn’t going to blow over well. Minji blinked, nodding her head. “How old is uh… Mr Kim?”

“My dad?”

That already wasn’t a good sign. It should have been a red flag. Alarms should have been blaring in my head, but they weren’t. My infatuation was still growing. Color was visible in my neck. I nodded, leaning forward onto my desk.

“He’s forty nine I’m pretty sure. We don’t really talk about it…” Minji answers. I can tell she doesn’t have an endless amount of friends. Most people wouldn’t answer that weird question anyway. Minji was just more naïve than most people?

“Oh,” I breathed. I don’t find his age attractive. I didn’t find it bothersome either. Why did I feel so bashful? I had barely seen him. In my head, I knew I would chose a forty nine year old over any guy my age.

“How old are you?” Minji asked. It startled me.

“Twenty three. You?” “Eighteen.”

Our conversation continued. My mind wandered elsewhere, which didn’t surprise me anymore. I tuned into Minji whenever possible. I was developing some weird ignoring disorder or something. She asked me if I could walk home with her and I agreed.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

My pulse thrummed audibly in my ears. I realized I really admired the way his glasses framed his face.

“This is (Y/N) (L/N). She’s an alumni from my school,” Minji announced. She seemed a little bashful about introducing me to her dad.

It should have been off-putting, but it wasn’t really. I could see his eyes gloss over with familiarity. There’s a face everyone can pull when they recognize a stranger. A subtle shift of acknowledgement; hey, I’ve seen you before.

He said hullo. I could tell he wasn’t super talkative. It didn’t really surprise me, actually. He didn’t seem like the loud type. I said hello back. I was completely aware of the color in my cheeks. My goodbye was short and brisk, but neither Kim seemed to mind.

That walk back to the car was filled with more uncertainty. Why hadn’t I thanked him? I wasn’t sure. I wanted an excuse to see him again, I guess. I was attracted to the demeanor. The certainty. The subtle shift in personality. The damnable glasses and the damnable hair. Forty nine didn’t register in my head as too old. All I could think about was how he looked less like a demon and more like an angel now. My heart hammered pathetically in my chest.

The weekend came and went. I busied myself with other things, even hung out with my dorm mates at a party. I told one of them about my first encounter with Mr Kim… but kept the Minji-meetings to myself. It was a coincidence, but I had a feeling they wouldn’t understand.

“Didn’t your coworker say Mr Kim was in an incident?” They asked, taking a slow sip from their Bloody Mary. It didn’t dawn on me that I had already mentioned that to them. Sheepishness washed over me. But after I recovered from my embarrassment I came to realize the weight to their words. That’s right… Chae-Won had mentioned an incident involving Mr Kim. I had been too embarrassed and distracted to ask for elaboration. “Yeah, she did,” I nodded slowly, leaning my head against the couch we sat on. My friend raised an eyebrow and cocked their head. “Couldn’t that be a bad thing?” They ask.

I keep my lips sealed. A blush rises to my cheeks. I hadn’t thought of that. Even in my delusional state, I didn’t even consider him causing a scene over me. There had to be some reason he was at the office, and there had to be some reason his hands were red when he left. I only remembered that then at the party. It’s funny how details slip from your mind for a while until you suddenly remember them. I decided to ask Chae-Won about the incident.

I hadn’t encountered my superior since that day. He was a military officer- so it wasn’t unusual for people like him to frequent the building. That man in particular, though, had been absent. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was on Mr Kim’s bad side though. He had gotten on mine.

At the office, while my mentor was patiently explaining how to use a certain filing system in the computer, I couldn’t help but stare down at my wrist. There was no mark from where the officer grabbed me. I had reported it though. As Chae-Won droned on, I had trouble focusing on her words. They slipped through her lips and seemed to fade into the background. “Uh, Chae-Won…”

“Were you paying attention?” She snapped. I felt guilt crawling into my stomach. “I— you sort of lost me. Sorry.”

She sighed. A break; that’s what she suggested. I closed my eyes and kneaded my forehead. This internship wasn’t the most interesting thing ever.

“I heard you were involved in the little scrap the other week.” Chae-Won’s voice prodded me out of my trance. I looked up at her with wide eyes. “You must still be shaken up about it, huh?” She asks. There’s a hint of concern in her eyes, but I get the feeling that whatever I tell her will just give her gossiping rights more than anything. “Yeah. I still don’t understand what happened in the ‘scrap’ though,” I use air quotations to emphasize my point. “Did Mr Kim say something to the officer?”

“Officer Baek? Yeah? He was in the ER. You’re lucky you weren’t hurt!” My stomach didn’t plummet. The color didn’t drain from my face. My eyes didn’t widen. Instead, my heartbeat picked up. A lot. An intense heat overflowed my body. Kim walked away. I thanked him… and he walked away.

Three words echod in my head. “You should go.”

The age gap never resonated as a problem to me. All that mattered was that I backed into a demonic-angel- pressed against his tall and sturdy form- and he told me to go. When I thanked him he hardly batted an eye. He walked away.

That was attractive to me.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

I texted Minji if I could see her the next day. I figured that I could tell her about meeting her dad already. Again, the thought of mg underclassman being the daughter of my recent obsession didn’t bother me. I was even bold enough to admit it was an obsession, but only to myself. She replied with a nice confirmation text and that was that. I crawled into the covers that night and braced myself for the next day. The normal routine. My eyes roamed across the room as my imagination ran wild. I wondered what kind of argument Mr Kim had gotten into with officer… Baek? Officer Baek. What had happened. What kind of man was Mr Kim, besides attractive. I noted that I found his attitude and the way he carried himself attractive. Within our brief encounters, he always remained quiet and curt. Polite around Minji, of course. I guess my daydreams had sort of drifted off track. I wondered what kind of job he had. Maybe a security officer? Or maybe something else… a little more ordinary. I couldn’t make up my mind, so I fell asleep.

As soon as my classes were over, I got into my car and started driving towards my old school. Rain started pattering on my windshield. I always did love a dramatic atmosphere. Now no one could judge me for playing my bad*as Spotify playlist on the way over. I realized that Minji probably wasn’t out of school yet, which caused my stomach to jolt. I told her I’d meet her at her place. I could only hope she had an umbrella.

As much as my heart throbbed at the thought of seeing Mr Kim a little early, my intrusive anxious thoughts told me to go get some coffee. A nice steamy drink to help warm my cold feet. When I pulled into the drive thru for a coffee shop I ended up ordering three drinks subconsciously. It was probably my intern instincts kicking in. I had grown used to running out for really unnecessary coffee orders. My autopilot brain just told me to order some for the people I was seeing. I spewed out some nonsense I thought Minji might like. My face felt warmer as I ordered something more simple and straightforward for Mr Kim.

The drinks steamed in the cup holder as I drove towards their house. I almost drove right by, but I ended up pulling over and rolling down my window.

“Minji! Get in!”

What a good alumni I am, right?! The kid was walking without an umbrella, trying to shield herself with her backpack. As soon as she got in the car I shoved the drink into her hands.

She apologized for being so imprudent or some sh*t. I didn’t care. I was just glad I ran into her. Anyway, I wasn’t about to scold her. That was never in the job description. “Do you want me to turn the heat on?”

“T-That’s okay! Thank you. I’ll just shower at home,” she gushed, pulling her lips away from the cup. I was kinda proud of myself for picking a drink she liked. I still felt apprehensive and turned on the heater anyway. I only realized when we got there that I was going to have to be with Mr Kim alone. While Minji was in the shower, that is. Actually, speak of the devil, Mr Kim was about to pick Minji up. He looked a little frantic, but obviously calmed down as soon as we stepped out of the car. I was a little ashamed of myself for noticing the relaxation in his stuff shoulders when he caught sight of her. By no means was I intentionally checking him out; but his hair was looking nice today. “Thanks (Y/N). I’ll be quick!” Minji called. Her feet padded hurriedly between her room and the bathroom. It left me awkwardly standing in the entry hall with the two coffees in hand. Mr Kim closed and locked the door behind us. It shouldn’t have made my face heat up.

I would have started the conversation, but I followed Mr Kim into the kitchen and offered him the coffee instead. I could tell that he wanted to say something anyway. My chest felt really tight. I was going to make him accept my thanks.

“Minji tells me you’re a senior,” he offered, stirring some cream into his coffee. Honestly that was a little uncalled for. The cream, I mean. Who would’ve thought…

“That’s right,” I replied. My face felt warmer than usual. My blush was an unwarranted violation of the subtly-code. “I’m interning right now at a government office. It’s not super interesting, but I wanna help improve the system eventually. Especially with the juvenile prison situation.”

Kim nodded as he replaced the lid on the coffee. I took a sip from my (warm drink) and looked down at the table.

When I looked at Mr Kim, I realized he looked really passive. There wasn’t a trace of embarrassment on his face. I was the only one whose cheeks were burning. He hummed. “And you applied for college fresh out of high school?” I nodded.

“Mhm. I changed my major after the first year. Started interning this year,” I let out an attempt at an easy-going chuckle. “It’s a weird coincidence though. Seeing you at the office, and then meeting your daughter.”

I stared down at my hands, feeling more of a burn in my face. A little disappointment crept into my chest. I was getting around to thanking him again… but he still seemed altogether dispassionate. Would this really make the haunting thoughts and guilt go away? Actually, I was more concerned with the fact that I was really attracted to him. He didn’t seem to give a damn about me.

If I would have looked up, I’d have caught sight of a very suspicious Mr Kim. “Yes, that was… a weird coincidence,” he murmured.

I smiled at the sound of his voice. It had been echoing in my head on-and-off for the past few weeks. You should go. My new favorite phrase— for no special reason at all.

“Mr Kim,” I began. My voice was a little feeble. “I wanted to thank you again, actually. I don’t usually get into encounters like that so… if you hadn’t been there… something worse might’ve happened.”

His gaze flickered down to my wrist, and all he did was nod. I could sense he wasn’t really accepting it now either. Maybe he was just that kind of guy. “Well, I think you could’ve handled yourself,” was all he said.

It was definitely an unusual sight. A twenty-three-year-old, wide eyed, staring at a man twice her age with in awe. Eyes not glancing where they shouldn’t, content to stare at his impassive expression. Normal college students don’t find themselves infatuated with a man they’ve barely met. And there I was.

Minji came into the kitchen, fully dressed. That was the end of me and Mr Kim’s conversation.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

That night, our conversation haunted me. It had nothing to do with our talk and everything to do with the look he had given me. Disinterested… maybe? He was polite and listened respectfully to what I was saying, but I got the feeling like something was off.

I was more attentive to him. My cheeks grew rosy at his words. My expression struggled to maintain impassive politeness and not break into a bashful smile. Mr Kim didn’t seem to have that trouble at all.

He wasn’t as interested in me as I was in him. I thought over what our conversation might’ve looked like to a bystander.

A middle aged man, good-looking and soft spoken, talking with me. A college senior wearing a hoodie and drinking her beverage. A young college student. A stable, capable older man. I guess the scene wasn’t as romantic as I thought. But to me, in the heat of the moment, my chest felt like warm and my stomach felt light. I still felt the warm kiss of a blush at the thought of Kim.

However… I began to doubt something. I wondered dubiously if Mr Kim would ever feel the same level of attraction. I reasoned he probably wouldn’t.

Tears trailed down my face in frustration; I was pretty mad at myself for being so stupid. Of course he wouldn’t. But I couldn’t help it. I was so… so attracted to him.

That night I tossed and turned in bed, wishing I had just asked for directions that fateful day two weeks ago. Even as I regretted the incident and running into Kim, my face still felt hot at the thought of me stumbling backwards into him. I felt jittery recalling his voice. That’s what was so damnable about the situation. I wasn’t normally so easily infatuated or irrational. Mr Kim did something different to me.

Something that, disgustingly enough, didn’t make me alarmed about the age difference. It didn’t matter to me, even though it normally would. I’d be disgusted in myself if it were any other person. But it wasn’t any other person.

I fell asleep with a lot of things on my mind.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

Kim was suspicious. He didn’t like coincidences, especially not coincidences that tied in with the little mission he was on two weeks ago. Minji was happy to have a new friend, especially an older figure in her life. That made Kim hesitate to follow after (Y/N). Maybe he was being overprotective, but that was sort of the norm nowadays. He just decided to dig a little deeper into her work. Why was she interning? Was her story legit? Was it an all coincidence? She seemed like a good kid, but was she really? He didn’t know. He needed to be sure.

𐬿𐬾𐬿𐬾𐬿

I was almost finished with my internship shift. My feet ached and my back was sore. I had just finished a delivery and was once again heading to my car. There was intense déjà vu. I knew my way to the parking lot from inside the building now. I passed by familiar hallways and unfamiliar ones. The footsteps that echoed behind me didn’t bother me; everyone had somewhere they needed to be.

I passed by a dozen people until I reached outside. The thing is, there were a pair of footsteps that had been ghosting me for a while, and I was getting uneasy. A little weirded out, I glanced behind me.

I recognized the guy. He had noticeable stitches over his eye and a bandage taped to his ear, but it was definitely Officer Baek. I felt a gradual drop to my confidence. Just don’t bump into him and you’ll be fine.

I crossed the street and into the parking complex and he continued in the same direction. Paranoid, I took an abrupt turn and went in between some cars. In my phone I scrolled through my contacts, ready to call my roommate and ask them to meet me somewhere close. My foot skidded and I slammed forward into someone. Nope. Nah. Nuh uh.

How the hell was my luck so bad? I felt dizzy and irritable looking up at the Officer who waited for me at the other end of the cars. “What the hell?” Did slip past my filter, happily enough.

He glared down (idc how tall you are he is taller.) at me. “This is my car. Shouldn’t you be going to yours?” I found it unbelievable that this was his car, but it actually wasn’t surprising seeing as I was really bad at decision making and my luck had run out just now. “You did make this easier though. I was gonna ask you about Code 66.”

“The computer filing program?” I countered dryly. I’m pretty sure that the system only went up to thirty-

“Kim! He goes by Kim. How do you know him? Cuz you two seem pretty close now…”

Officer Baek took another step closer and I took two backward. Creep. I reached for my purse and prepared to squirt some perfume in his eyes. The mention of Mr Kim rolled right over me. I wasn’t worrying about my silly infatuation, just surviving this encounter. Thank you very much.

“I met him the day you grabbed me. There’s not much of a connection, and I don’t have to answer your questions,” I said steadily. Hooray for my returned confidence. “Goodbye sir.”

I heard him open his car door and figured that was the end of it. But then… of course…

I yelped as my wrist was yanked backwards. Here comes the perfume and a kick to the crotch-

My heart pattered angrily against my ribs like a caged bird. Alerts sounded in my head as he tried shoving me in the car. I thrashed and cursed and yelled for help, dizzied as he slammed my head against the door.

The car driver door opened on its own and slammed into Officer Baek, smashing him against the next car. My arm was released. I looked around sporadically for the source, and of course found my liberator. Ironically, another swell of déjà vu flooded my head. Kim jumped out of the car, and my heart skipped a beat. Literally. I think I must’ve been scared. (Shocker.)

I numbly ran to my car as instructed. His words were muffled and fuzzy in my head. I waited, craning my neck to catch sight of them. Blood spurted onto the cars nearby and I heard glass break more than once. I thought about something as I waited, hands clutching my steering wheel nervously. I thought about what the hell was going on over there. What did Mr Kim do for a living? Should I be concerned about him? What’s code 66? I also thought about his disinterest in me… how he didn’t seem interested in a college student at all. Maybe Officer Baek hit my head a little harder than I thought, but my mind was suddenly a little clearer. Mr Kim was older than me. Too much older than me. But my stomach still squirmed, and my cheeks still felt warm. I would never get what I wanted, and it made my eyes sting. I had been so stupid. But I still wanted what I couldn’t have.

When Kim found me in my car, he asked if I was okay. I blurted out the only thing that came to mind. He had just fought off an officer. It was the most brutal thing I had partially witnessed, and no doubt my expression showed how mortified I was. But I said what was on my mind anyway.

“Mr Kim!” If I can’t have him… “Please! Teach me how to fight! B-Be my master!”

This is the next best thing.

[sweetbunnidreams]

[adorethesmiths]

i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school i cant go to school

[lostl1sbons1ster]

[starbeltconstellation]

I don’t think they are bad and some survived order 66 Quinlan Vos was one of them. But I do believe they lost their way by the end of the clone wars because most lost their way or watered down their beliefs becoming to caught up in image and pandering to the senate (palps *cough*) even yoda said basically that a dark shroud surround them (Sith made) but they made themselves susceptible to it with arrogance, becoming inflexible, and a strange combo of attachment and detachment. Even mace windu was attached to the republic which is one of the reasons he was so defensive and disliked Anakin he saw him as a threat to his republic.

I’m not trying to hate on the Jedi just make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad. The Jedi did a lot of good, they made one of the longest major peace times the galaxy had ever seen, that’s 1000 years of peace time after ending the Sith war. And actually Luke skywalker, Ezra Bridger, Ahsoka (rebellion), and season 4 Kanan were prime examples of what the Jedi were originally. I just think when palpatine started pulling strings and corrupting everything to take power it made slow brewing Jedi problems 10x worse as some Jedi like Barriss Offee’s master mixed up avoiding negative attachment with being cold and callous because while a Jedi master should avoid “possessive” attachment especially in a way that would hold their student back they should have a good bond with them because emotional bonds are one of the pillars of trust.

-that’s my take, I’m not sure what you meant by no Jedi haters though. So if this crosses your line then I’m sorry I can see myself out cause I don’t want to start a conflict 😅

Hello, anon. 👋

Firstly, I just want to DEEPLY apologize for the long wait in my response. 😅🤦‍♀️ I try not to get behind on asks, but life has been crazy for me at the moment, and especially with longer asks like yours, I really want to take my time and give a good and in depth response.

Now, just right off the bat: I don’t mind discussing things. As long as it doesn’t get nasty and full of insults. So I’m not about to bite your head off.

In fact, I am going to take the time to use your ask to refute all of these critical/anti Jedi points, proving how most of it is Palpatine’s propaganda that the galactic citizens/SW fandom has grown to believe because it’s easier to have a big bad scapegoat (ie; the Jedi boogie man) than for galactic citizens to grapple with the fact that they themselves are also a part of the problem because THEY are the ones who vote in politicians in the Senate (who are a lot corrupt, except like a handful like Mon Mothma/Bail Organa/Riyo Chuchi/Padmé/etc. And even Padmé wasn’t a complete saint like a lot of fans think, since she purposely hid Anakin’s Tusken massacre just because she didn’t want to give up her new hot murder husband who was obsessively adoring over her/loved her), and THEY are the ones who also got the most complacent, are they not? After all… if the fandom blames the JEDI… why didn’t the CITIZENS clock anything wrong until suddenly an Empire was telling them to hand over all their freedoms or die?

It’s really easy to sit back and say what you would’ve done in the Jedi’s position, because the audience has more information than they do. What Dooku and Qui-Gon told them is the equivalent of being told they saw a unicorn (Sith) in the wild. It’s not that out there that there’d be some doubts from the Council, and people seem to forget that the Council STILL said they’d look into it. But they aren’t magic. They can’t just snap their fingers and see that Palpatine is the Sith Lord. Especially with the Darkness cloaking their Force senses. I think it’s kinda… gross? To blame them for something Palpatine was causing (the cloaking Darkness) that was literally part of the plan to genocide them. Just a thought, but maybe that should be Palpatine’s and Anakin’s fault, where it belongs? Lol. Sorry if I sound a little snippy, it’s just this is a tired and running around in circles argument (although I do think your ask is a genuine one, which is why I’m taking the time to answer it and perhaps if not change YOUR mind, then change someone else’s that might read this. I’m trying to reach more across the aisle here, because both sides I’ll admit have moments where they only want to be defensive and not explain their positions).

It’s funny how people always point out that the Jedi missed brewing corruption (they totally knew about it and tried to fight against it how they could. But just like in real life, I’m unsure what people expect from them. To strut into the Senate and threaten/murder the politicians into submission? Because ya know… that was kinda the red flag Anakin gave off with that “They should be made to!” line to Padmé. Just saying. 🤷‍♀️ Just like anyone, Jedi know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! Funny how that works, huh?)

What I think is interesting about you and about a lot of Jedi fans (including LH, who is the writer of The Acolyte) is that you THINK you’re being “fair” to the Jedi, but you’re kinda… not? 🤷‍♀️😅 And I’m not saying that as an insult. I’m saying it because it’s true.

Let me explain: There are rabid anti Jedi fans known as the infamous Karen Travis’s who is basically a rapid and foaming at the mouth Jedi anti who believes they “got what was coming to them.🤢🥶” LH on the other hand (at least in HER head), views herself as Jedi CRITICAL (which is something you clearly view yourself as as well. And there’s nothing wrong with being Jedi critical. The problem is that a lot of times this “criticism” becomes condescending, whether intentional or not, despite maybe the person’s best intentions). And while there is a little bit of a difference there, it’s not as stark a line as fans would try to convince us pro Jedi’s to believe.

As I mentioned to someone else in my other ask: there are plenty of fair criticisms about the Jedi that I can acknowledge: the Shimi thing, for one, which is I think just a bad symptom of GL’s writing being more “metaphorical” than literal. Shimi HAS to stay on Tatooine because Anakin eventually HAS to murder the Tuskens in cold blood so GL can tell the story he wants to tell of how Anakin can’t let go, and so the Jedi are never given the opportunity to do what I truly BELIEVE they would’ve done, which is go back and free her, at least for the peace of mind of one of their newest initiate. The plot literally physically bars them from doing so.

And even THIS is not without its flaws, because they would ONLY have wiggle room to free Shimi after the heat of TPM problems had died down where they had time to do so… while walking past/avoiding eye contact with all of Shimi’s slave neighbors, because as specified before—The Jedi have no jurisdiction in the Outer Rim, and you bet your ass if they freed all those slaves and started a war with the Hutts with their little 10,000 strong army, the Republic would take one look and go “Lol, good luck with that,” and not help them at all, which would be basically suicide for the Order to try and accomplish on abolishment of slavery on the Outer Rim all on their own in the TRILLIONS of people in the galaxy. They do not have the MAN POWER for that. Not without the Senate army/clones. So how can they be blamed for this? WHY are one of the “space minorities” of the galaxy being blamed for something that should be the POLITICIANS’S job? Can you not see the double standard here? Genuinely asking, anon, because it’s always baffled me.

People want the Jedi to do something about it? Get on the Senate’s ass about it then—the REAL people who are responsible for all of the shit going wrong in the Outer Rim while they line their pockets and kiss up to clueless galactic citizens for votes come election time. THEY are the ones that should be responsible for the problems of an ENTIRE galaxy—not a small little minority group (which I’ve already come to realize that the Jedi are. They are a culture/religion/family, and 10,000 is but a drop in the ocean of the galaxy. They are so small in the grand scheme of things that it’s SCARY when considering how easy it was for Palpatine to lead them to almost total annihilation) that try and try and TRY as hard as they can, which is apparently somehow NEVER enough, for the galactic citizens AND the SW fandom itself.

And why is that? Why is it so HARD for SW fandom to relate to them? Why does LH (who I’m sure in her head BELIEVES she’s as progressive as they come, just as I genuinely believe you had the best intentions when reaching across the aisle to send me this ask, but at the end of the day still comes across frankly exhausting and a little condescending when you pick out the “good Jedi blorbos” who are ones that deserve to live and don’t have to be dehumanized as “emotionless/cold/callous” like you just did with Luminara just because Luminara chose to grieve in a way you and Anakin and many other rabid Anakin fans/anti Jedi’s view as lesser than) view the Jedi as some type of “space cops” who are “oppressing 🙄” the Sith as a representation of her religious trauma that she is clearly projecting onto them as something completely separate than what the Jedi Culture actually is? Why does she view them as “emotionally repressed” and “almost catholic-like”, and views the fucking SITH (literal SPACE NAZIS 😭🤦‍♀️) as a representation for her persecution as a gay woman?

It’s because—just like MOST SW fans in the US—she cannot fathom a culture outside of the lens of western philosophy. In her mind, the Jedi aren’t a “real 🙄🤢” family. In HER mind, the Jedi aren’t necessarily evil, but she still believes those “poor little culty Jedi ��💔🙄” didn’t see they were ‘sewing their own destruction’. (Which is blaming them. It’s BLAMING the victims of genocide, and it’s to this day the most disgusting thing I will always remember about the show’s “your actions will cause the destruction of every Jedi in the galaxy” quote that made Twitter go wild with genocide apologia galore).

I’m not gonna repeat everything in the post I made to the other anon (this ask response is long enough already), but I’ll link it here in case you want to read it, because I do have some examples screenshotted of certain SW fandom dehumanizing the Jedi and showing genocide apologia, which proves that pro Jedi’s critique/defensiveness for the Jedi Order and their culture isn’t an overreaction or without basis, because it proves that blaming the Jedi for their own genocide is the NORM, even if people won’t admit so outright (still can’t believe The Acolyte just outright SAID it. I’m not gonna rub fans’s of the show’s faces in it, but because of that line alone, I’m SO glad that show was cancelled. Anti Jedi propaganda is already bad enough).

Also, I’m sorry to tell you this, anon, but the Mace Windu thing is just straight up wrong. I have never understood this Mace thing with the fandom. People act like Mace was personally bullying Anakin every damn day. Mace didn’t even hate Anakin. Just because Mace was a little stern with Anakin and didn't worship the ground he walked on didn't mean he hated/disliked him/was jealous of him (a frankly childish notion, in my opinion). They both just had different views over how to be a Jedi and in battle strategies during the war. It was never personal with Mace. Anakin MADE it personal, because he always took not being told "yes" personally, like it was a slight against him. He didn’t see Anakin as a threat to the Republic until literally the last free day of democracy when he looked at him and saw a giant shatterpoint all around Anakin. I think that would give any Jedi pause. Lol.

Mace was a fine Jedi who treated Anakin just fine. Just because he didn’t worship the ground Anakin walked on or treated him like God’s gift doesn’t mean that Mace was a bad person or Anakin was a “poor little guy” getting bullied by him. The thing with Mace refusing Anakin a seat on the Council is overblown. Frankly: Anakin didn’t DESERVE a seat on the Council. He might’ve been a powerful Jedi, but he was still hot headed and reckless and still had a lot to learn. And his temper tantrum when he didn’t get his way did him no favors either (look, I LOVE Anakin, but I’m not gonna be delusional about his faults, okay? Most of his problems were caused because he built them up out of thin air. He built up this rivalry with Mace in his head, when Mace was busy with his own life. Mace was not “out to get Anakin” or something. That’s—as kindly as I can say—something children tell themselves when angry at parents who tell them “no”, which Mace did a lot with Anakin). And I’m not gonna lie, anon. People have always seemed extra hard on Mace specifically, and while it might not be all of it, I think there’s a part of racism mixed in there with a proud black Jedi that isn’t afraid to stand up to the white and emo and hot future serial killer in the making (my hot Anakin! 🥰🥰😂). I’m not saying YOU specifically are being racist, but I’m just pointing out something that I’ve always felt reeked around the fandom opinion of Mace (more from the SW YouTube dudebro side of the fandom, but still).

I’m not gonna go and explain a play by play of all my points, because I got in a argument/discussion with someone on YouTube the other day (even though I know it’s bad for my blood pressure 😬😤😂), and I feel like the points I made there are perfect as a main response for this ask, so I’m going to place the screenshots here. This whole online debate came about when I was watching a SW lore video on Leia visiting Anakin’s grave after the ROTJ celebration and telling him she doesn’t forgive him, and one of the commentators called her a “brat”, which pissed me off. Lol. But anyway, we’ve been going back and forth the past few days, and I’ve basically made a mini pro Jedi manifesto, so I think all of the screenshots will answer most of your questions and also refute them to show how they are inaccurate and more of a fandom opinion that’s only come about because fans like Anakin and want to twist themselves into knots to blame everyone for his problems but him.

Here are all of the online person’s screenshots: you’ll notice how eventually he tries to justify Anakin killing the younglings as a “mercy”. 🥶🥶🤢 Yikes.

-

Here are my responses:

Damn. Apparently there’s a screenshot limit. 😭 I’ll copy paste the rest:

Leia had every right to come and get closure if she needed to. Anakin personally tortured her himself after all. She has a personal stake in this through being tortured by their own FATHER that Luke doesn't have. Whether she wanted to go to make sure the person she viewed as a monster was dead, or to try and get some closure from what Luke had told her, it was within her rights to do so. She understood EVERYTHING perfectly. She knew who Anakin had been for years before the last five minutes of his death, and that was someone who'd terrorized the galaxy.

Lol, Anakin wasn't "fulfilling the will of The Force" as his reign on the Dark Side for 20 something years. He fulfilled the will of the Force when he finally got off his ass and killed Palpatine to end the last of the Sith. It's a copout to pretend any of his other actions were anything but his own choice, otherwise his 'redemption' means squat. She doesn't owe him anything just because he stopped the horror by killing Palpatine. It's the LEAST he could've done. You seem to believe that one action somehow should buy Anakin forgiveness in the eyes of all of his victims, and if they don't forgive him, then they're "brats" or something. Redemption doesn't work like that. You don't do the right thing because you'll get something out of it. You do it to be selfless and because it's simply the right thing to do. And I can tell you that Anakin would probably disagree with your opinion on Leia being a "brat" himself once he was back on the Light Side, because the whole point is that he'd be REPENTANT. Not being arrogant and expecting blind forgiveness for things that are quite frankly unforgivable.

Luke's forgiveness is a GIFT. It is NOT something that has to be the norm, and Leia is no less because she chooses not to forgive Anakin. She has every right to never view him as her father till her dying days.

Anakin had EVERYTHING to do with the explosion of Alderaan. This BS certain fans spout of "that was Tarkin" is nonsense. Anakin had agency. He could've tried to stop Tarkin or tried to leave the Empire way before that moment. Just because it was hard, he chose not to. EVERYONE on board the Death Star that weren't prisoners are responsible for the destruction of Alderaan. And yes, that includes Anakin. As I said before, Tarkin would only be given the highest sentence in court because he chose to order the planet destroyed. But Anakin would still be charged right along with him in a court of law. Just because Anakin had a traumatic life, doesn't excuse the things he's done. That's like saying a school shooter/serial killer has no agency over killing their victims just because they had a “hard life.” It’s a frankly illogical argument.

Anakin as 'Vader' could've choked Tarkin out right there. Who's gonna stop him? He's survived dozens of enemies in the comics. Him not having "authority" is a copout. Anakin was given plenty of authority in the Empire. He was just still Palpatine's lapdog at the end of the day. Hell—he could've grew a spine and left the Empire years BEFORE that moment. He does not get a free pass for "following orders".

Lol, Anakin does NOT have borderline personality disorder. That’s a fanon theory. That is NOT actually canon and George never said that. GL says Anakin fell because of his greed for power to never feel weak like he did as a child and because he was afraid to let go. The Jedi didn't fail him. He failed THEM. He's the one who fucking genocided them after all. Their entire culture is literally mental empathy because they're space wizards. There were times when Yoda and Obi-Wan all but BEG Anakin to open his mouth and say what's wrong, and he either refuses or is so vague that there's no way to glean what his main problem is (when Anakin talks to Yoda about Padmé and won't just ADMIT it's about Padmé). People can't help you if you don't meet them halfway. Anakin refused to do that. That's on him. Not on any of his victims. And even if he DID have borderline personality disorder (which is just a fanon theory), he'd STILL be responsible for his actions. It's amazing how much fans blame everyone else under the sun than the man who choked his wife. Lol.

I don't think Anakin is emotionless or incapable of care or goodness. That's the whole point of Luke, after all. I simply deny not giving him the agency to make his own decisions. He WAS a monster. What else do you call killing little kids who beg for your help? But the point of Luke is that Anakin ALWAYS had the opportunity to turn from his actions and be better. He just didn't find the spine until ROTJ. And that's great! He turned back to the light and his soul found salvation. But he is NOT redeemed in the eyes of anyone but Luke. It's laughable to think otherwise or that he wouldn't have been executed if he'd survived. And it's illogical to blame his victims and call them "brats" just because they won't forgive someone who was once basically space Hitler.

Despite what you may think, I love Anakin's character and the tragedy of him. I love that he found salvation in the end. But I DESPISE treating him like a child who didn't know what he was doing. He knew. He was selfish for twenty years. LUKE is who taught him how to be selfless. Everything else is on him. You can't call him the greatest 'redemption' of all time and then blame everyone else for his actions.

Because then what is there to redeem?

Nothing.

You can't have both. Pick one. 🤷‍♀️

What does it matter that Anakin as 'Vader' knew that Palpatine wouldn't praise Tarkin for such a cruel and useless thing in destroying a planet just to look a little tough? That doesn't mean shit. Just because Tarkin eventually gets what was coming to him, doesn't mean that Anakin couldn't have sped up Tarkin's demise right there. Good actions don't work like that: "Oh, it didn't really matter that he didn't try to save Alderaan! Because in the end Tarkin gets his karma!" (Anakin gets his karma too, by the way. You could argue from his burns or the fact that the only way he can 'redeem' himself is through dying by killing Palpatine).

I'm not sure what argument your making on if Anakin could've "talked" Tarkin into another way to get Leia to talk to betray the Rebels. I'm arguing that if he—or YOU—expected Leia's "forgiveness", then it implies there should've been some level where he could've done something different. I'm arguing he could've left the Empire years earlier if he'd grown a spine, or he could've Force choked Tarkin out right there and got him and Leia out of there somehow. Who's gonna stop him? No lowly soldier on board the Death Star could stand in his way. Palpatine would be miles away at that point.

He could've done something different. Fans just argue he was "helpless" in the sense that they don't want Anakin to be selfless to give anything up. The excuse that he was "stuck" and "had nothing left" is BS. Deep down, Anakin knows if he found Obi-Wan and repented that Obi-Wan would take him back. There's a whole arc about it in a comic when he's trying to bleed a Kyber Krystal. He just doesn't do it because he's too depressed and selfish to admit he screwed up his own life. He pretended for 20 years everyone betrayed him, when really it was the other way around, and that was too horrific to contemplate, so he pretended he was another person, when clearly he's still the same guy, only horrifically injured under the mask. He can only admit the truth after Luke offers him blind forgiveness.

It doesn't really matter that psychologists have "diagnosed" Anakin. He isn't a real person. He's a character that was written with a narrative purpose by GL. And GL was clear when he says the reasons Anakin does what he does is because he's greedy for power to not feel weak again and also because he's too afraid to let go. The writer of the character knows better actually. Isn't that what SW fans always say with GL?

Jedi are literally space Buddhists that GL describes as "empathetic space monks." Part of their culture is literally to be connected to all life around them. It's laughable to say they wouldn't understand a "simple person" in the galaxy. That's literally what they're taught to do in the Temple. Before the war, they were Advisors/ mediators.

Anakin had a fondness for Qui-Gon, but he did trust Obi-Wan. Maybe not enough to mention Padmé (he didn't trust ANYONE with that except apparently Rex, and l'm almost certain Rex found out on accident, because Anakin definitely doesn't care about Rex as much as he did Ahsoka), but he DID trust him. And he cared for Obi-Wan greatly. Just not more than his own wants and needs apparently. But that's true when it comes to Anakin choosing himself over all of his friends and family at the end of ROTS. The Jedi would've helped Anakin if he'd just ASKED without being so damn vague. Maybe they wouldn't have let him stay in the Order, but it's not like he'd be kicked out the door immediately. But Anakin wanted his cake and to eat it too, so he didn't tell him about his wife because he wanted to keep the power of being a Jedi. And guess what? The Jedi don't OWE one man the power to change their entire culture just for him.

There isn't anything wrong with having a set of rules for beliefs. Priests can't marry either. That doesn't make them “emotionless robots” that are “incapable of understanding human emotion” or understanding a struggling man's thoughts. As I said before, the Jedi cannot help Anakin if he doesn't ASK. You cannot condemn them in one breath for not helping him, while at the same time saying that it's fine Anakin didn't explain his problems with them, because they should've just been able to read his mind. It's hypocritical.

Obi-Wan had no other options but to follow Padmé to find Anakin. He NEEDED to find Anakin, because Anakin was fucking dangerous at that point in time, and had just helped genocide an entire culture. Not exactly father/husband material at that point. And even then, in the movies Obi-Wan doesn't reveal himself until it's clear Anakin isn't going to listen to Padmé. It's ludicrous to think if Padme kept arguing with Anakin that Anakin still wouldn't have strangled her in anger in that moment. Again, it appears somehow you're trying to put off this transgression he's committed on someone else again, and I cannot fathom why. It makes him far less interesting that way if he was just a "poor guy" who couldn't control himself.

What I find interesting is you can admit that Anakin doesn't have the information the audience does, which is why he thinks Palpatine is kind and is his friend, but you show no grace towards the Jedi, calling them "arrogant" for not realizing the Sith had slowly popped back up, as if they are somehow supposed to have the audience's information. The truth is that they don't.

Just like anyone, they know the politicians of the Republic are slowly being corrupt (just like MOST politicians in real life, and you don't see everyone condemning all US citizens because we don't go clean them out like assassins or something), but there isn't anything they can do about that unless you expect them to go in and wave their lightsabers around to threaten the politicians into submission. As if Palpatine wouldn't immediately twist that into his favor to say they were "trying to take over the Republic". (And oh wait—he did that in the movies! 🤷‍♀️ Funny how that works, huh?)

It doesn't matter if Anakin didn't "want" to kill kids/the Tuskens/betray Mace and his Jedi friends. What does that matter? What does it matter if he felt bad while doing it if he still DOES it? You wouldn't say a school shooter wasn't responsible for their actions just because they were sobbing the whole time they went around slaughtering everyone in the school. Anakin's responsible for his own actions, and just because he might feel "bad" doesn't let him off the hook. Even when he was masquerading as 'Vader.' Who cares if he was miserable 24/7? l’ll tell you his victims sure didn't when he decapitated them with his lightsaber or snapped their spines.

I'm not arguing about the people that forgave Anakin. I'm arguing over condemning people as "brats" that don't. (I personally think it's a copout to have Leia forgive him after reading some diary, so l'm glad at the least apparently new canon has her taking her entire life to get there). My point is there is nothing that makes Anakin's victims any less if they choose not to forgive him, because forgiveness is a GIFT. It isn't something you're owed. It's funny fans keep pretending he's owed that while condemning all of the Jedi as "arrogant", because I can't think of anything more arrogant than a man who was formerly one of the worst monsters in the galaxy thinking he's "owed" forgiveness. And just as I mentioned before, the Anakin after he came back to the Light wouldn't even agree with such a notion. He may ASK. But he wouldn't call Leia a "brat" for it. It's ridiculous to think that after the horror he'd personally committed to her.

I don't really care what your thoughts are on "Darth Mouse" as that's not what this conversation is about. GL describes Palpatine as the Devil, which is why Anakin can be turned back to the Light and Palpatine can't. But there is NO DOUBT that Anakin as 'Darth Vader' is seen as 'space Hitler' throughout internet culture (the Empire/the Sith is LITERALLY based off of Nazis). If you'd take a moment to google it you would see it's already a huge staple of internet culture. That doesn't make him emotionless or without goodness (he saved Luke, after all), but it IS still true. I don't see what's so hard about acknowledging his atrocities. He was a cruel and horrible monster for most of his life, and it only makes Luke's actions all the more miraculous when he somehow gets through to Anakin and makes him consider a heel face turn in the final hour.

Lol, honestly I also think you're a pretty strange person calling one of Anakin's torture victims a "brat" just because she didn't forgive him like dear saintly Luke. There is no shame in being kind like Luke (it helped him win after all), but there is NOTHING that makes Leia a bad person for not forgiving Anakin. I think you don't seem to contemplate just how BAD that is. Her FATHER tortured her for apparently HOURS. We have no idea just what he said and did to her during this time. He could've taunted her, for all we know. And I know, I know, you might say "He didn't know she was his daughter! 🤪🤪 " But that's not the POINT. The point is how he was cruel, and only seemed care when he realized she was his flesh and blood. Anakin's lucky Leia didn't spit on his grave. Because she WASN'T consumed by her anger to the point it was unhealthy. She just didn't forgive him and never viewed him as her father as long as she lived (because BAIL ORGANA was her father in all but blood). And that is within her rights. As I keep stating, Anakin is not OWED anything. His actions at the end of ROTJ are the LEAST he can do. He should be GRATEFUL to the opportunity Luke gave him and how Obi-Wan and Yoda were saintly enough to forgive him and help him become a Force ghost, because he quite frankly didn't deserve it. But salvation isn't always about what people deserve. Just like forgiveness, it's a gift. Anakin received a gift from Luke and Obi-Wan—but he is NOT owed it from Leia. And she isn't a "brat" for not giving it to him. It is important to stick to one's beliefs and principles. Leia stuck by hers. That takes courage and strength. She loved Luke but never agreed with him about Anakin.

And I also never called Anakin as 'Vader' a maniac. I called him basically a monster. Because he WAS. He helped kill thousands of people for Palpatine on the regular and continued to help genocide Jedi over the years, while ALSO still killing more kids over the years a handful of times too, even if he usually tried to avoid it (the Kenobi Show when he purposely snapped a kid's neck in front of his mother and dragged him through the street like garbage). Ironically, the more you learn and read about Anakin's atrocities, the more Luke's reaction becomes downright insane (while still saintly/miraculous), because NOBODY else (especially in real life!) would think someone like that had a heart deep down with a sliver of care left. That's what makes it miraculous Luke got through to him.

Lol, you cannot seriously be arguing that the maintenance workers on board the Death Star were "poor little guys." I don't know if you're aware of this, but even though there were probably volunteers, on the other hand, usually half the time in the military soldiers are ASSIGNED certain things like "mopping the floors" or "latrine duty" personally—so those people STILL were probably Empire officers. And even if they weren't, they still chose to be on the abomination known as the Death Star. Their sentence may be the lightest, but unless they were put there against their will they too would ALSO be charged. And also—with your argument—you're calling Luke's actions at the end of the Original Trilogy as a genocidal act or something, when really it was a necessary act to take out a planet destroying death machine. It's amazing how certain fans can try to twist things around to try and blame the heroes for something that is the villain's fault.

Here we go again with the excuses of "if only Mace wasn't mean to poor little Anakin" then Anakin wouldn't have had to murder everyone. Lol, is Anakin incapable of cognitive thinking? Because I promise you that if I was Ahsoka and heard that Anakin's reasoning for trying to kill me at one point in Rebels and betraying all of his friends is because a few people were "mean to him" I would just be pissed off at the gall of him to not take responsibility for his own actions. Even if a few people WERE mean to Anakin, that still doesn't give him the right to go on a murderous rampage. All his actions are still on him. That's like saying a school shooter is justified in his actions just because he was bullied. You calling Anakin a "Trojan horse" as if he planned any of that and wasn't just riding by the seat of his pants doesn't really make sense. Anakin didn't plan anything, and if you're arguing that BS theory that Anakin "balanced" the Force by genociding the Light Side to have it be even with the Dark Side (not true anyway since there were still more Light Siders than Dark Siders), then I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️

There is no way that "genocide is good, actually!" is the main theme GL had for a children's Trilogy. Anakin completed the prophecy when he finally got off his ass to kill Palpatine. He could've done that in Palpatine's office, or years down the line—either way, the outcome to complete the prophecy is the same: the eradication of the Sith. No more. No less.

Quite frankly, I think it's pretty gross to blame a culture for their own genocide, so the galactic community isn't doing itself any favors at that point anyway (including the SW community. It's always been a baffling fandom opinion to me). And despite what you and other fans may believe—the Jedi shouldn't have to CHANGE their entire culture/way of life for the sake of one man (Anakin) OR the galaxy's inhabitants who don't even TRY to understand them anyway (funny how Jedi are blamed for not understanding citizens, but what citizens try to understand them?).

They are not obligated to change their culture just for the right not to be murdered by a genocidal man on a temper tantrum.

Yeah, it's not surprising there were some among the population who "rejoiced" the fall of the Order. The war affected people's livelihoods and lives, and people get REAL greedy real fast when their day to day lives are affected by something. So yeah, it's no wonder they listened to Palpatine's propaganda to make the Jedi their scapegoat. Still pretty gross and disgusting, of course, but I can see how it came to be that way. Pretty ironic how people seemed to eventually miss the Jedi when they were gone, huh? It's not so fun dealing with an enemy (The Empire) when no space monk is standing protectively in front of you with a laser sword.

You DO know it's canon there were only 10,000 Jedi (not counting younglings and retired Masters) in a galaxy of TRILLIONS, right? It's illogical to expect them to be able to single handedly end slavery throughout the galaxy (especially in the Outer Rim where the Senate won't help them), or to expect them to be able to solve every damn problem in the universe like poverty (the lower levels of Coruscant). They helped people when they could. I don't know how, but you've seemed to have forgotten (just like most fans) that the Jedi ALWAYS tried to help. Even to the very end of their lives. It only makes it more gross to blame them for their own genocide. Lol, Luke barely knew shit about them except what he managed to scrounge up that hadn't been purged by the Empire (and a lot of that is from Legends authors, who didn't particularly like the Jedi anyway, so of course they'd write it like that and not as GL's vision of them being the heroes). The clones were treated terribly, and the Jedi did everything they could to make their lives easier (unless you'd prefer they sit on their asses out of the war to leave the clones under the command of people like Tarkin who didn't give a shit about them?), and it's illogical to blame them for the clones's plight. The SENATE are the corrupt ones and it's THEIR job to fix poverty and slavery and give the clones their rights. THEY are the actual villains of the prequels (besides the Sith), which is exactly what GL wanted to present to show the moral decay of democracy. And yet somehow people missed that and thought he was saying—"No, actually, it's the genocide victims who are wrong, guys!" when that couldn't be farther from accurate.

Dear LORD, here we go again with the excuses for Anakin's actions. Anakin "couldn't trust" Obi-Wan because of something kinda snippy/mean that Obi-Wan said when he was a TEENAGER?(The “pathetic life form/he’s dangerous line”, which he said when he was jealous/also—again—a teenager). Wow, way to hold a grudge. Lol. Doesn't that go against your whole argument about "forgiveness?" Didn't Obi-Wan's following actions towards Anakin then on in treating him like a brother show NOTHING about his care for him? Come on now. Let's be serious.

Why the hell WOULDN'T Obi-Wan go after Anakin? As stated beforehand, Anakin was DANGEROUS at that point, and needed to be put down. Anakin went against his fate to destroy the Sith, which put the prophecy on hold for a bit, so yeah, there was a "plan", which is why he lived, but that doesn't mean he wasn't dangerous and still didn't deserve to die at that point in time. He'd just killed kids like animals hours earlier. Again: not exactly husband/father material anymore.

Again, I feel like the implication here is that you're hinting that everyone misinterpreted the prophecy and that Anakin's fate was to bring "balance" by becoming a genocidal monster and "evening the score", and I am sad to say that you are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It's not accurate to state GL's original intent to a children's trilogy is that genocide to "even the score" was the correct answer. As stated again: Anakin completed the prophecy when he destroyed the Sith (ie; him and Palpatine). Full stop.

Hmmmm, you're doing a whole lot of speculation on how Leia "might" react if she was put in Anakin's situation, but not actually taking into account how everyone makes their own decisions and people can react differently to things at the end of the day. This just feels like another way you're trying to excuse Anakin's actions and condemn Leia for her bitterness towards Anakin just because: "Oh, if only that brat went what he went through! 🤪 " And such an argument—in the nicest way I can think possible—feels like the platitudes children tell themselves when angry at their parents. ALL of your and rabid Anakin fans's arguments are, because it all boils down to: "It wasn't HIS Fault! It was THIS person's! Because they were MEAN to him and he got BULLIED! And all his friends didn't understand him (even when it's obvious they reached out plenty of times and tried)!" It's just a very tired and frankly going in circles argument. You keep bringing up all these external factors as if the Jedi didn't try at all to offer Anakin coping mechanisms (Yoda literally offered them, and his advice—whether you or others want to admit it or not—makes sense. In war, you sometimes have to be prepared you might lose someone, and with the vague knowledge Anakin gave him, I'm pretty sure Yoda thought Anakin was talking about Obi-Wan. If Yoda knew it was about Padmé, no shit he'd probably have different advice). Anakin's life was not horrible at the Temple. He had a horrible childhood and that would fuck anyone's head up and leave a scar, but once at the Temple he was offered a whole range of different options to receive help. The only difference here is that you just don't AGREE with the Jedi's beliefs in how they go about helping people control their emotions so they don't lash out at people.

Maybe a few people (kids) at the Temple said a few things to Anakin that could be bullying (and I've only seen ONE comic related to that), but it's ridiculous to assume that the entire Jedi Order hated him. It's illogical to think that, and it's just like the childish notion fans have that Mace (who you call a "motherfucker" for... again, what? Treating Anakin like everyone else and not God's gift?) hated or was jealous of Anakin just because he didn't tell him "yes" all the time.

The point is, Anakin's life was fine at the Temple. Maybe he got a little isolated and lonely, but it's not like people didn't reach out. Anakin just had trouble reaching back. And all of those excuses don't let him off the hook for his genocidal actions, which you still seem to be twisting yourself into knots to try and do. THAT is childish. Not Leia judging Anakin for who he was when she had the misfortune of being tortured by him. You're plain lying to yourself if you think you wouldn't react just like Leia in real life. Most people are not gonna be wondering to themselves why the "poor little serial killer" did what he did to their family.

Just as stated before, Anakin honestly didn't deserve shit at the end of his life.

He'd betrayed everyone he'd ever known and thrown them all away (Rex, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Padmé, the Jedi/501st, R2, etc) like complete garbage. He helped genocide the Jedi—the very Order that took him in from slavery—and then spent those next 20 years hunting them down like animals, while also in his free time killing whoever Palpatine pointed him to like a lapdog just because he was depressed and pissed he'd screwed up his own life. He'd murdered thousands of kids at that point (literally monstrous and unforgivable for most people. Certainly me. Which only makes Luke's forgiveness more meaningful) and there is a comic where he hunted down a Jedi just for the sheer purpose of ripping his youngling out of the man's arms so he could let Palpatine turn the baby into an Inquisitor.

I am sure there are compilations on YouTube of all the people Anakin killed and the people he'd tortured or made jokes at while he smirked over their bodies. Come back and watch those and then tell me again he "deserved" to find peace. Lol, Anakin didn't deserve shit.

And I know that me saying that will probably make you think I hate his character. I don't. Anakin's character is very dear to me and I'm GLAD he found peace at the end of his life. I'm just under no delusions that he was "redeemed" in any sense of the word that wasn't in Luke's eyes alone or that Anakin actually "deserved" peace, when it should be completely obvious he deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell. As I keep repeating again and again: Anakin's 'redemption' and forgiveness are GIFTS. It's not something he is owed or something he even deserves. It's something he's given from the people around him who are quite frankly better people than he ever was in his entire life. Luke taught him how to be selfless at the end of his life. Because of his trauma as a slave, Anakin never wanted to do that beforehand from the fear of being weak again, no matter how many tried to help. But Luke did, and he succeeded with getting through to Anakin and making him finally get off his ass to make the right choice.

Again, The Force may have a "plan" but that doesn't mean people don't have free will. Otherwise, they'd all just be mindless puppets walking around spouting nonsense. That's just another copout to try and excuse Anakin's genocidal actions and say it wasn't his fault because it was his "fate". It wasn't. His fate was to destroy the Sith (and NOTHING else, despite what you apparently believe about a BS argument that I admit is common in fanon that Anakin "evening the playing field" was his destiny or something). He tripped and dragged his heels on that for twenty years before finally completing the prophecy in the final hour before his death. No more, no less.

It's childish to not take responsibility for your actions. It's why even though I love his character l'm not gonna treat Anakin like he was a "poor little guy" who didn't have a brain. He had options and a support system (Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Padmé/Rex/R2/etc) he could've reached out to if he really wanted to. But he didn't because he just wanted to be told he was right. That's on him and no one else, as I keep saying over and over, despite how many excuses for him you try to bring up. I will repeat again: you give Anakin a lot of grace, but apparently none to Leia herself. Why is that? It feels pretty hypocritical. It also feels pretty hypocritical to judge and blame the Jedi in one breath saying they "lost their way (incorrect)", while in another breath embracing their very own beliefs on love and forgiveness. So, which is it? Do you think the Jedi had a wisdom and empathy for forgiveness, or do you think they "lost their way?" You can't have both and pick and choose based off how you want to excuse and justify Anakin's behavior.

Ahhhh, and THERE it is. See, I knew this gross argument (that I admit is a common fandom opinion) was hiding in there somewhere! I'm honestly not going to give this opinion much time, because at the end of the day you and everyone else who believe it are objectively wrong. 🤷‍♀️ You wanna know how I know that? Because it's genocide apologia. And at the end of the day, when you say the whole purpose GL made for Anakin's story and the theme of SW is that "genocide is good actually!", all I have to do to refute that is to remind you and others that this is a CHILDREN'S trilogy and from the words of GL himself; SW's main theme is about hope.

So because of that, this gross "theory" is shown for what it is: immoral, gross and just plain wrong genocide apologia. 🤷‍♀️ It's also just wrong in general, because Anakin killed all the Sith at the end of the Original Trilogy, and it's now canon more than two Light Siders were still alive at the time, so that would be "uneven scales" which goes against this immoral genocide apologia theory to begin with.

Ahhh, would you look at that! You've had the gall to bring up another gross argument similar to your earlier one (which is a common fandom one, I'll admit) that Anakin showed "mercy" to the younglings when killing them, when it's obvious that's incorrect and he didn't show them anything but cruelty. And now you're giving this type of similar gross argument that genocide survivors were "freed" from the "slavery" of their own culture! I gotta hand it to you, it's a common SW fan belief, but every time I hear it, I still get amazed at the gall of someone who truly believes this is accurate each and every time. Because it's obvious you don't agree with their culture (not saying I'd be a good Jedi either, but the point remains), which is why you think them being "freed" from their culture is better for them so the genocide survivors can make "real families" because you don't view the Jedi as family! Because you only believe in the basic family dynamic. So yeah, this opinion is also immoral and wrong obviously, because it tries to twist Anakin's and the Empire's genocidal actions as "benevolent" and "cleansing the Order for something new." Which is, again, genocide apologia, which proves you are wrong, because it's illogical that genocide apologia would be the theme of a children's trilogy about hope.

A lot of these things you bring up about Anakin and Palagueis are things l'm not even sure are actually canon anymore or if they're from Legends. Even if they are canon, these again are not excuses for his actions just because Anakin may have had a penchant for darkness. Even if he did, it's still his responsibility to learn how to control it and not hurt people. Many Jedi need to be guided on the right path to not follow evil, which is what the Jedi already did every day. With all of the thousands of Jedi trained and only a handful turning to the Dark Side, that seems like a pretty good record. The Jedi didn't "lose their way." This is a tired and BS argument that I admit Filoni has brewed the more GL gave him more leeway with SW, because Filoni doesn't view the Jedi as heroes in the right like GL did. There is nothing to show they lost their way just because they joined the war, because they literally were given that choice or sitting on their asses to watch the galaxy burn, and you bet your ass if they did that then Palpatine would spin it around to the public: "Look at how they sit in their ivory towers and watch you suffer under the Separatists's hands! 🤪🤪” So there is literally no way they can win here. If you're talking about how some of their methods got dirty (trying to mind trick the bounty hunter), firstly: they were literally trying to save their own children from being tortured/experimented on/enslaved, which I'm pretty sure gives them some slack (unless you're only willing to give that to Anakin?). Secondly, Anakin also got his hands dirty plenty of times in the war, and is conveniently not criticized by the fandom as much as the Jedi are. Ironic, huh?

Anakin could've told Obi-Wan anything and Obi-Wan would've helped him. Anakin knew that. Anakin just didn't want to risk losing his Jedi authority in the Order, because he didn't want to have to choose between a life with Padmé and being a powerful Jedi. If he cared about Padme completely selflessly, why didn't he just admit he was married and ask the Jedi to help Padmé and make sure she stayed alive through their Jedi healers? That was an option.

He literally risked Padme's life because he keeps sitting on the fence to try and have both. Because despite what you and some of his fans believe—Anakin isn't OWED both. He doesn't deserve everything in the world just because he is the oh so mighty "Chosen One/Hero With No Fear". A culture shouldn't have to change their entire way of life just for one man to continue being married and to have his cake and eat it too by staying in the Order. Even in real life, priests still aren't allowed to practice and be married. That doesn't mean they're being "repressed" or that they're under some type of horrible "slavery" to suppress their emotions. It's just the rules of that culture. If Anakin didn't like the rules of the Jedi, he should've just left after getting their help to keep Padmé and his kids safe. But he didn't because he wanted to keep both. That’s on him. Not his victims.

I mean, yeah, no duh the Jedi Order would’ve had some problems after killing Palpatine and having to prove they he was a Sith that acted on both sides of the war. Palpatine did that really well, but it’s a bit illogical to assume they wouldn’t eventually find evidence in his office somewhere or on his data files. He did the things he did by planning his schemes some type of way. And yeah, for some insane reason being a Sith Lord “wasn’t illegal”, but being controlling of both sides of the war IS, which they could’ve proved after a while. So, if you are trying to argue that Anakin’s actions were for the “better” because it would’ve been too “hard” for the Jedi otherwise—you are still objectively wrong this way. 🤷‍♀️ It’s also just another way to try and excuse Anakin by pretending his actions that day on the final day of freedom of democracy didn’t matter, when it’s obvious that they very clearly did. If Anakin hadn’t cut off Mace’s hand, the war would’ve been won. Therefore, everything that goes bad in the galaxy is legit Anakin’s fault. 🤷‍♀️ Of course Palpatine has the highest blame because he’s the mastermind, but betrayers/backstabbing is always a worse breed of crime, because it always comes from a friend, which is what Anakin was to the Jedi/Obi-Wan/Ahsoka/Rex/Padmé/501st. He legit ruins all of his friends’s lives with that one swing to cut off Mace’s hand. Trying to paint it as anything else is simply incorrect, and takes away from his ‘redemption’ at the end of the Original Trilogy by trying to pretend he’s a “poor little guy” who had no choice.

Anakin could’ve “defeated” Palpatine multiple ways. Just as I mentioned before, just because The Force had a “plan” doesn’t mean that everyone was puppets walking around on a string, because then free will wouldn’t exist. Anakin could’ve helped defeat Palpatine in his office that day in Revenge of The Sith by either taking the swing himself or either standing back and just letting Mace finish the job. He’s still The Chosen One that way, because his choice is still literally the defining action that saves democracy that way. He also could defeat him the way he does in the Original Trilogy, which is taking him by surprise to save Luke by throwing him down the reactor shaft to kill Palpatine. Either way gets the job done. He doesn’t need to physically fight Palpatine to get it done himself. He’s just the catalyst for what happens to the galaxy because of HIS choices alone, which proves how he has agency and understood why all his actions were wrong and just didn’t care. He didn’t need Luke for that in Palpatine’s office. All he had to do was grow a spine and let Mace take the final swing. He failed to do that and doomed the galaxy for twenty years because of it. 🤷‍♀️

Ahhh, there you go again with the gall to pretend that what Anakin did was “mercy” for the younglings just because the imperials would’ve done horrible things to them too! Gotta hand it to you, one has to have a lot of nerve to believe such an argument such as this (which I acknowledge is a common opinion among rabid Anakin fans), but it’s still gross and hilariously wrong every time I hear it repeated. So, just as I stated to you before: you and anyone else who has this opinion is WRONG, because obviously Anakin murdering little kids like animals is not a mercy. Anyone with any type of heart and soul should be able to realize that. What Anakin did is not and will never be a “mercy”. It was a cruel and dehumanizing act towards kids who were begging for his help. What would ACTUALLY have been mercy is what I stated before: Anakin snapping out of it to save the kids and lead them out of the Temple to save their lives. THAT is mercy. The only reason you continue to spout this BS argument that is common among rabid Anakin fans is to try and twist yourself into knots to deny Anakin agency and pretend he had “no choice” but to kill the kids for “mercy”, when it’s clear that this opinion of yours and anyone else who believes it is gross, immoral, and just plain wrong. 🤷‍♀️ It’s as simple as that.

Anakin WAS taught to understand, accept and manage his emotions correctly. That’s LITERALLY what “control” means: MANAGING your emotions so you don’t lash out at people in your anger, which is what the Jedi always warned their members against doing. The only difference here is that you just don’t agree with their beliefs, and are inadvertently portraying them as a culture who “suppresses” their emotions, when from the movies and TCW show it’s obvious that you and anyone who has this opinion is wrong. 🤷‍♀️ There are literally scenes that show it’s about being MINDFUL of your emotions so you don’t let them control you. Not to pretend they don’t exist. Anakin had all of these Jedi teachings available to him. The only difference is that he thought he was above the rules and that they didn’t apply to him. All of which eventually bit him in the ass, because he refused to listen to anyone and be told “no” without getting angry.

Qui-Gon was kind to Anakin, and Anakin had a fondness for him, but it is NOT canon that if Qui-Gon lived Anakin wouldn’t have fallen. That’s just a fanon theory that fans pretend is canon. You know how I know this? Because if you look it up, George Lucas straight up SAYS in interviews that Qui-Gon living wouldn’t have changed anything for Anakin not falling to the Dark Side. The “Duel of the Fates” is just what the song writer titled the song as a metaphor for the fight between light and darkness, but that doesn’t mean that because Qui-Gon died it was impossible for Anakin to grow a brain and a conscience and make choices of his own. GL literally knows better, because he’s the writer, which is what SW fans always say, right? Because anyone that believes that Qui-Gon dying “sealed Anakin’s fate” is simply using it as another copout/excuse for Anakin’s actions to pretend like all of his choices weren’t his own fault. Obi-Wan was a fine teacher for Anakin, and just because he wasn’t perfect didn’t mean he “failed” him. The truth is that Obi-Wan did everything he could, but Anakin refused to accept Obi-Wan’s help half the time. That’s on him and nobody else. He failed Obi-Wan. Not the other way around. Obi-Wan only thinks he “failed” Anakin out of misplaced guilt because he’s a better person than Anakin could ever hope to be who actually felt guilt for his actions, when Anakin in turn during that time at least felt nothing but entitlement and anger towards friends who wouldn’t join him on the Dark Side.

Dooku also doesn’t have any room to talk. He might’ve noticed corruption in the Senate, but the second Dooku joined the Sith and the Separatists and started helping enslave planets and killing people, he lost all credibility and became a big old hypocrite, just like Anakin became after ROTS.

So far, every single opinion you have given is just one excuse after another for Anakin’s actions to try and put the blame on someone else (usually the victims of his genocidal atrocities). And all of them are incorrect and immoral and wrong. 🤷‍♀️ Because half of it is genocide apologia or trying to twist Anakin’s actions from killing the younglings as “benevolent mercy”, when that is obviously WRONG and the biggest copout I have ever heard in my life. You also try to excuse Dooku’s actions, which is also wrong, because Dooku is a literal war criminal at the end of ROTS, so all of his opinions mean squat at that point, because he’d become the very thing he’d hated at that point, just like Anakin would eventually come to be from his own shitty choices. Therefore, every single thing you have brought up is not “facts.” It is simply an opinion that has become huge in fandom spaces because people like Anakin’s character and are biased against him and want to pretend he was a “poor little guy” who couldn’t make decisions, when it is clear there were a million other decisions he could’ve made.

I will then bring this around back to my original point: Leia Organa is not a “brat” for choosing not to forgive someone who was once one of the biggest monsters in the galaxy who TORTURED her (her own flesh and blood FATHER) just because Anakin might’ve had a hard childhood or a few people “being mean to him.” She doesn’t owe him anything, because specifically everything that had gone wrong in the galaxy up to that point was ANAKIN’S fault, and it is the LEAST he can do to kill Palpatine and fix it, so she doesn’t owe him anything for him killing the Emperor either. It’s great Luke found it in his heart to forgive Anakin, but it will NEVER be acceptable to call Leia a “bad person” for not forgiving Anakin, who is canonically the space Hitler (proven) of the Star Wars galaxy. She doesn’t owe him shit, and again: Anakin is lucky she didn’t spit on his grave.

Again: this doesn’t mean I hate Anakin’s character. But unlike you, when I like a character, I don’t need to excuse their every action to pretend they are “poor little guys.” Anakin was a horrible monster for most of his life, but I’m still GLAD he found salvation and peace in the afterlife. But he did NOT deserve it. He deserved to be condemned to the farthest pits of Hell, and I am under no delusions about that. He’s lucky the people around him (Luke, Yoda, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) are far better people than he ever was while he was alive and were able to find it in their hearts to offer him forgiveness, because he never showed them that same kindness or grace, and obviously didn’t deserve their love or loyalty. It makes it all the more saintly that they gave it to him.

​You’re correct that I said earlier I didn’t want to continue this conversation because I feel like we’re going in circles. But if you’ll recall, I also stated if you kept messaging me then I would respond to the best of my abilities.

My final message to you on my points is the one I left before and also this following one, and then I will wish you farewell, considering we’re obviously never going to agree. Maybe someday someone will come across this thread and read my thoughts and see the logic in not believing genocide apologia is the theme of a CHILDREN’S series about hope. Either way, the conversation is basically finished. I’m not going to repeat everything I have said that discredits your points again, as nothing I’ve said has gotten through to you apparently. The reason in my last message I brought my point back around to Leia not being what you call a “brat” is because that was the original reason I replied to you to begin with. The other stuff in this final comment you send about Leia “owing” Anakin for her birth, which is why she “owes” him forgiveness is also wrong as well for all of the reasons I stated earlier. The parent argument is just another excuse because Anakin was a deadbeat dad. Lots of kids write off their terrible parents every day.

Every other thing you bring up about the Jedi and Mace and the Council has already been refuted by my points earlier to show them as incorrect, even if you don’t agree. The final thing is of course you repeating Anakin has no agency and shouldn’t be blamed because the Force had a “plan”, but again, I’ve already proven in my earlier messages that type of immoral and genocide apologia argument about it being his “destiny” to genocide the Light Side is wrong, because—again—Star Wars is a CHILDREN’S series at the end of the day, and it is completely illogical and absurd that “genocide is good, actually!” is the main theme of a CHILDREN’S trilogy about hope.

I will respond to you no further now. I am satisfied with the points I have made debunking your claims, and will definitely come back to this as a reference if I need to debate someone in the future. I will only leave you with a vague thanks that things managed to stay mostly civil besides us calling each other “strange”. But then again, I know we were both probably getting annoyed. Still, it’s a rare thing to have a mostly polite debate on the internet, so I’ll give credit where credit’s due. 👍 Goodbye, and hope your day is well.

-

As you can see, there’s a lot of genocide apologia in this guy’s arguments (literally disgusting), and there were times I got a little snippy (it gets frustrating defending genocide survivors over and over), but for the most part, I tried to be polite, because I wanted all my points to remain strong. If you are willing to listen to my perspective, I think you can admit some of his arguments echo your own, even if you’re obviously not as blunt and frankly gross about it as him.

Take the show The Acolyte, and how it’s supporters argue that it’s only “critiquing” the Jedi and showing them as “flawed”, which is what you wanted to get at when you sent this ask, no? To “make sure that in discussing the Jedi we remember the good and bad.” Well, my response is… why is that needed? You’ve seen all my points and examples about how being anti Jedi is the larger fandom opinion and how Order 66 is quietly thought to be partly “their fault”, which is literally one of the grossest opinions to have and I’ll never sugarcoat that. So, why is it NEEDED to point out their “flaws” with every post on how they didn’t deserve their genocide? Why does that matter? Why can’t it just be agreement: the Jedi didn’t deserve to be slaughtered like animals? Why is it “oh, but we must remember that they were flawedddd and complacenttttt. 😔💔 After all, if only they just hadn’t been mean to poor Anakinnnn. Then he wouldn’t have been ‘forced’ to help murder them all. 😔💔” Like… do you not HEAR how condescending that sounds? 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️

Why do the Jedi have to be the “perfect victims” for fans, otherwise they either “deserved what they got” or were “arrogant” and “brought it on themselves?” Why aren’t the MURDERERS/BETRAYERS blamed for the collapse of a galaxy (Anakin and Palpatine), when THEY were the ones responsible and who pulled the trigger? The point is that it’s frankly just weird how much certain fans bring up that “oh, don’t forget they were flawedddd! 🤪🤪🤪” on a post that is mourning the loss of their culture. I promise you that your “special little blorbos” Kanan and Ahsoka (the REAL her that hasn’t become Filoni’s mouthpiece) would probably not enjoy the way you describe them as “oh, but YOU’RE one of the good ones!” And I say that with all the politeness I can manage.

Funnily enough, the writer of The Acolyte, LH, kind of echoes your sentiments, which just aren’t as “benevolent” as you may genuinely believe. In her show, there’s no DEPTH or honestly real THEMES of SW put into the show. It’s all flipped around to the Dark Side being “liberating”, which is so far from true it’s literally laughable. 😭😒 And I’m getting ticked off that when genuine criticism from pro jedi fans come up, somebody just HAS to say—“This show is just portraying the Jedi as not perfect! 😌” 😬😤🫠 And I swear I’m gonna lose it one day, because it portrays the Jedi as more than imperfect. It portrays them as emotionally repressed, barely competent “space cops”. 🙄 (Fucking HATE that term antis use for them so much, because it’s what they argue about saying the Jedi ‘deserved’ their genocide because they’re an ‘institution’ and not a “real” family. 😬😬🤬🤬 Ohhhh, I’m gonna go off on someone one day. Lol.) And these are just my frustrations. It’s not personally directed at you at the moment, anon. It’s just me kind of venting all my thoughts on this post.

I even had a fairly decent comment on my tumblr post about my critique of The Acolyte from a fan trying to save it, and they basically said the same thing and that it’s from the Sith perspective so it’s skewed. But it’s not. 😭😭 Because the showrunner’s views literally mirror the villain’s and then they become her mouthpieces. The show is completely anti Jedi while trying to pretend in a condescending way that it’s only Jedi critical in a way like—“Ah, those poor little culty Jedi. 😔😔💔 Some had good hearts… but their culture doomed them to be wiped out… 😔💔” 😒🙄😤🤬

I just… fucking HATE that show. 😭 SO much. And I know certain fans loved it, so I apologize if people enjoyed at least certain parts, but I’ve read a tumblr post that broke down the show really well and how hollow it is. The characters barely have time to interact and get to know one another before they’re all killed off (Yord and Jecki and Sol, who were fan favorites), until only Osha and Quimir remain—because at the end of the day, THAT’S what this whole stupid show was about. 😭🤦‍♀️ It was about a Reylo fanfic writer getting to play in her sandbox.

Anyway, my point is I don’t think you’re “anti Jedi”, anon. I think you’re “Jedi critical”, yes. But not in the benevolent way you believe. I think you are unknowingly being benevolently condescending in the way The Acolyte tries to be by saying, “Ooohhh, those poor, culty Jedi. 💔😔😔😔 If only they weren’t so emotionally repressed like robots (dehumanization)… maybe then they could’ve changed their culture so they didn’t have to be ‘cleansed’ for a ‘better galaxy’. 😔💔💔” It’s just… stuff like that. 😭🤷‍♀️🤦‍♀️ Which is… SO exhausting for us pro Jedi fans to hear over and over and over like it’s a valid take, when it’s just really not. But I wanted to explain my thoughts in a way I hope was mostly polite. I probably sound a little bit snippy, but it’s just because I’m frustrated at having to defend genocide victims again. That’s all.

I guess I would just… encourage you to rethink your thoughts? Because when you take into account what the Sith/Empire represent (Nazis) and then what the Jedi genocide is a metaphor of… your ‘argument’ looks less and less cute. 🤷‍♀️😭 I’m just saying. Some may not like me comparing it to real life, but there are plenty of Asian fans/aroace fans/Jewish fans that heavily relate to the Jedi for this very reason, and I refuse to allow their opinions to be silenced, because fiction is for everyone, and SW has ALWAYS been political, which means it’s literally MADE to be compared to real life.

Anyway, I hope this long meta post maybe changed some minds, if not your own. I’m gonna leave links to other big pro Jedi blogs that have better and more organized meta posts than me about this stuff, where they go in depth explaining how the Jedi are the good guys and how what happened in the Prequels was never about “the genocide victims are in the wrong, actually!” and was more about the SENATE becoming corrupt and rotting democracy from the inside out, which made it so easy for Palpatine to slither into power. 10,000 Jedi aren’t gonna easily change that. But the politicians CAN. They were just too selfish to do so. The Senate/Sith are the real villains of the Prequel trilogy. Not the Jedi (literal genocide victims). Anything less than viewing it like this is just… wrong. 😭🤷‍♀️

Here are the big Pro Jedi meta blogs I talked about:

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Tags:

@ensomnia

@heartfairy

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@shoniwake

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@lexskiss

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roses, bel air, take me there. i’ve been waiting to meet you. ︵‿︵‿୨♡୧‿︵‿︵

[goth1chell]

And I was still Alice in Nightmareland when my Mad Hatter disappeared

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[adorethesmiths]

my favourite type of penetration is a bullet penetrating through my frontal lobe

[lostl1sbons1ster]

[starbeltconstellation]

Since you are a passionate jedi fan, I would be interested in your opinion on a thing I noticed on AO3. There is a fanon that is inspired by Ancient Greek scholars having had sex with their pupils. In the fics there is a special night in which the masters have to fuck their padawans because it is tradition. Sex and AO3, you ask? What's new, you ask? What is new is that the writers explicitely write in their notes that the institutionalized fucking of the padawans is their way to show how corrupt and morally bad the jedi are. But how is something that fanfic writers completely made up to get more readers (because sex sells) a critique of the jedi in canon? No matter what answer I come up with, it is weird. Are these fanfic writers fetishizing a law allowing teachers to fuck their students, feel bad for their own arousal and try to shrug it off by making themselves believe that they are just writing these sex scenes for a "good cause"? I mean, if they hated the jedi so much, why would they write about them? The MCU or DC would get them more readers, right? I simply can't come up with a satisfying answer to why this mental gymnastics exist. I know this is a very long ask, but please address it if it is of any interest to you as well!

Hi, anon! 👋💕✨

Sooooo deeply sorry for the long wait time. 😭😖💔 Things just got away from me, and I kept putting off my response because I wanted to make sure I had the time to give the nitty gritty of my thoughts on your ask.

And as a pro jedi fan and a SW fan in general… I just have to say… ew. 😭☹️🤢💔

And it’s not necessarily that I’m trying to SHAME people that write darker or more sexual stuff (even though there are some things that just genuinely baffle me why ANYONE would enjoy writing something so horrible, but then again, I’ve never been a fan of horror movies, sooo… 😂🤷‍♀️).

And look, I’m aware that fiction is separate from reality and not necessarily a show of a person’s morals (it’s FAKE, at the end of the day), but at the same TIME, I believe people on this app and just in fandom spaces in general sometimes purposely plug their ears and sing “lalalala” by pretending that how we interact with the world doesn’t shape our perception and psyche to SOME degree.

And this isn’t me saying that if someone writes something like “noncon” or “whump” that they’re going to go out and hurt anybody! That’s the EXTREME reaction that conservative panic tries to drum up by pretending that people have no self control and need to be shielded from “corruption 🙄” or something like that. But what I DO believe is that seeing stories (whether love stories or family stories in general) WILL affect how someone can come to view relationships. This is on a tier scale, obviously. Kids and teenagers will have a harder time grasping why “365 Days” is not a modern Beauty and the Beast movie. 😭🤦‍♀️ BUT… with ADULTS… it’s easier to separate fiction from reality… in a CONSCIOUS way. But for me, from a psychological standpoint, if a person grows up with a specific attraction to certain toxic love stories that are PRESENTED as healthy when they just aren’t—it’s POSSIBLE that they can unconsciously seek out someone who fits that mold. I don’t think this is the NORM—but it IS a possibility, and that’s why I think it’s so important to recognize yourself and your own wants and needs in the real world and ask yourself “Does this make me feel safe and happy? Or just obsessively DESIRED?” and other things such as that.

Anyway, I got a little off topic (which I often do 😭😅), but my POINT is my disgust isn’t necessarily about these writers’s choices on exploring such darker themes in their work if they truly want to—it’s THEIR fic, at the end of the day. But what DOES disgust me is (yes, dear anon, you guessed it! 🙃🙃) that apparently writers are USING this trope to create even MORE anti Jedi rhetoric when there is already SO much of it in the community in general (and that god awful ‘The Acolyte’ show only made the hatred and genocide apologia worse, even though I do acknowledge the show wasn’t given as much of a chance as Ahsoka and The Mandolrian shows were).

Just as The Acolyte had to INVENT an entire scenario where the “EMPATHETIC SPACE MONKS 😭🤦‍♀️” of the galaxy apparently cover up a massacre which DIRECTLY parallels Anakin Skywalker’s descent to the Dark Side—which makes NO goddamn sense that it’s truly LAUGHABLE—you have brought to me a fic trope scenario where the writer has apparently INVENTED something that was NEVER canon to show how “corrupt 🙄” the Jedi Order is—before they stand back and go “haha! 😌 See? SUCHHH horrible people.”, as if they didn’t just invent that scenario in THEIR own head to justify their bias against the Jedi and their way of life.

It’s very similar to the uncharitable views that certain parts of the SW fandom (specifically the Anidala and the radical Anakin fans) have towards the Jedi in regards to NONCANON info that we do NOT truly know (such as why Anakin never visited Shimi all that time), before just CHOOSING the most uncharitable and mean spirited view of the Jedi that they can, which is saying—“Well, the Jedi Order must have a strict policy on NEVER seeing your birth family again, or they’ll be kicked out! 🤪🤪”, when there is NOTHING in canon to ever give any indication of that. It’s literally fanon that has somehow all but become canon in the eyes of the fandom, and I haven’t the foggiest clue how it happened (yes I do. 🙄🫠 It’s because SW fans LIKE Anakin, so of COURSE they don’t want to admit he was in the wrong or that he could’ve taken things too personally or the wrong way—so they settle on, “Those mean Jedi must’ve bullied him and kept him from his mom! 😡🤪”🙄🤦‍♀️).

Fans will make something up out of thin air—literally twisting themselves into KNOTS to try and excuse Anakin’s choices while blaming everyone else to pretend it’s not his fault and he didn’t truly have a choice (COMPLETELY untrue)—while at the very same TIME, giving absolutely NONE of that courtesy to the Jedi Order themselves. The Jedi’s actions are nitpicked to DEATH. Everything they do—choosing to fight in the war to save lives instead of sitting on the sidelines to watch the galaxy burn, not worshiping the ground Anakin walked on to try and teach him humility and grace and respect, literally putting their LIVES on the line RIGHT BESIDE THE CLONES each day on the battlefield, Mace going to arrest Palpatine before realizing the man would never be convicted at a corrupt trial—NONE of it is ever enough.

They are 10,000 strong (NOT taking into consideration how some are younglings or retired Jedi), and yet they are judged with the sharpness of a knife that they cannot solve every damn trillions of problems in the galaxy.

They are a literal DROP in the ocean. It is LAUGHABLE to expect them to somehow be able to end slavery throughout the galaxy in the Outer Rim without the backing of the Republic’s help (which they definitely would NOT choose to help the Jedi, and even if somehow they DID, it would STILL be a long and tedious thing that would take DECADES to fully accomplish), and it is even MORE ludicrous to BLAME the JEDI FUCKING ORDER of all people for the Clones’s situation, like they could just stroll into the Senate building and wave their lightsabers around to suddenly give the clones their (deserved) rights, or to expect them to somehow—what? Kidnap all the clones (because a lot of clones would sadly NOT go willingly because of their brainwashing indoctrination that this is what they were ‘made for’) and run from fighting in the war? Where the hell do people expect them to GO? How do people expect the Jedi to be able to take CARE of all those people (INCLUDING their own) in such a situation without the Republic backing or the Temple walls?—be able to just magically give the clones rights or to just magically be able to say no to fighting in the war as if that would somehow do ANYTHING for the clones instead of just placing them under the rule of men like Tarkin.

The one thing I will concede is that (WHILE being in the war, because YES, despite what some people believe, it was UNAVOIDABLE. Palpatine definitely made sure of that) the Jedi probably needed to learn to get more into politics to control their image in the eyes of the public (ironic, considering how many people blame them for their own genocide by saying they were ‘too involved in politics 🙄’ when the TRUTH is that they did everything to AVOID being in the political sphere because they heavily disliked it). There is a bit of (gentle-hearted) naïveté here, because they all assume that the citizens of the galaxy will just SEE that the Jedi are trying to protect them. But people get selfish and greedy REAL fast when their lives become affected badly by things happening around them. And the more the war dragged on, the more citizens of the galaxy (disgustingly) latched onto Palpatine’s slowly growing propaganda that the Jedi were somehow the big bad villains of the war and not like—oh, I don’t know—the fucking SENATE. 😭🙄🤦‍♀️

My POINT is that—you’re RIGHT, anon. This fic trope you’ve brought up is (while HEAVILY ew in my eyes 😭🤢) just one part of a growing infection of the SW fandom where it’s becoming the “edgy” take to blame the Jedi (the VICTIMS) for their own genocide, instead of placing the blame at the politicians’s feet, where it belongs. Palpatine wasn’t able to gain this power ALONE. The Senate makes it EASY for him. Because they’re all out for themselves at the end of the day (YES, even Padmé, who would’ve taken Anakin’s tusken massacre to the grave if she’d had the chance), and even the ones that DO care about the bills they’re trying to push to help change things STILL are in such a position of privilege (ironic, considering fandom pretends the Jedi Order is ‘privileged’, when they are anything but and are more of a ‘model minority’ group struggling desperately to keep the soft power they have to at the very LEAST have a place at the Senate’s side to TRY and make them see reason sometimes) that they forget about the little people suffering underneath them (Padmé has to be REMINDED of this by one of her handmaidens at one point).

The point is that George Lucas intended the SENATE to be the corruption of the Prequels that brought about their own doom. Not the fucking JEDI. 😭🤦‍♀️ But somehow, SW fandom has rewritten their memories to somehow believe this to be true. But if they’d watch ANY George Lucas interview, they’d see this is not the case. And people are allowed to have different interpretations of stories at the end of the day—but what IS ridiculous is how certain anti Jedi fans SHAMELESSLY try to rewrite history by outright STATING that it WAS GL’s original intent to portray the Jedi as ‘corrupt 🙄’, which is just… SO far from accurate that it’s laughable.

But yeah, at the end of the day, the REAL ‘villain’ (besides the Sith) of the prequels is the SENATE, because THEY are the ones who should be doing their jobs, but who are INSTEAD lining their pockets or kissing up to the clueless citizens of the galaxy come election time, while apathetically expecting the Jedi Order to solve all the problems that the SENATE is too damn lazy and selfish to solve.

The one conclusion I can make is that if the Jedi HAD realized they’d need to play the game of politics to keep in the public’s good graces—then you bet your ASS they would have been on intergalactic interview after intergalactic interview subtly “hinting” at the clones’s lack of rights and plight to try and stir up public outcry—because THAT is how you get true change. By changing things from WITHIN the very public itself. Because THAT is the only thing that will make the Senate LISTEN—is if they’re at risk of losing votes later on down the line.

Anyway, I of course went on the longest of rants once again. Lol. 😂😅 But I hope the long wait time was worth this response! 😊❤️💕

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To any readers that stumble across this and are curious enough to check out my fic:

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Tags:

@ensomnia

@heartfairy

@fangirlteallie

@shoniwake

@lemons-2-limes

@lexskiss

@spidersaye

@selenaftmarvel

@silverwoodj

@ajtaals

[friendlessghoul]

Buster Keaton, Joe E. Brown, and Jenny Maxwell Route 66 - Journey to Nineveh - Season 3, Episode 2