#City Between spoilers

[nobodysdaydreams]

I have a theory about Wicked Part 2 and what they are going to add to it, and why it's going to add so much to the movie.

I think they are going to add Dorothy's POV.

In the musical, she's mentioned, but Dorothy never appears on stage. We never know her POV or how much she knew about the witches, Fiyero, Boq, the lion, or what was actually going on in Wicked beyond the Wizard of Oz plot. But in the Wicked two trailers, we see scenes of Dorothy and those scenes are shot as if from the Wizard of Oz, not the traditional Wicked musical, in which Dorothy's character is only briefly mentioned or shown as a shadow. Which means we're going to get to see her story this time!

However, if I was going to include Dorothy's POV for Wicked, I don't think it would be anything like the Wizard of Oz, for a few clear reasons:

Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz is a perceptive and animated child and unless they plan on erasing that aspect of her character, she is not going to go home from Oz at the end of the Wicked movie with the same beliefs as the Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. She sees the Wizard is a fraud and calls him out just like Elphaba does. Besides this, there is no way she would just not pick up on the fact that Galinda, the dead witch, Boq, Fiyero, Elphaba, and the lion have a deeper history together than meets the eye for the entire trip.

This one might sound stupid, but trust me, it's important: Toto as a character. Here me out. In the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy's distress in the real world is centered around a mean lady trying to drown her dog and the Witch of the West tries to do the same in Oz. However, in this version, Elphaba's whole thing is animal rights. She'd probably be horrified that Toto can't talk or Dorothy would be surprised and delighted to find that in this world, Toto can talk depending on what they decide to do with the dog. And if Dorothy comes to this world distressed about a lady trying to kill her poor dog, Elphaba would surely empathize. There might even be a misunderstanding between them if Elphaba believes Dorothy is working for the Wizard and Toto is a dog that needs rescuing.

So how does this change things?

There are a number of wonderful options.

The most obvious one is that we could see Dorothy put together and discover the story of Boq, Nessarose, Galinda, Elphaba, Fiyero, and the Wizard. She and the rest of the gang would formulate a plan to help Elphaba fake her death to save her from the people of Oz and the Wizard.

Within that narrative, we could see Elphaba enchanting the sleeping poppies to stop them from getting to the Wizard with the goal of protecting them from the Wizard (rather than to stop them from getting home). In Act 2 of Wicked, the Wizard again tries to form an alliance with Elphaba but Elphaba rejects his offer when she discovers what he's done to her Animal friends. It's possible that Elphaba believes the Wizard is trying to use Dorothy too and is trying to protect her from the same fate.

We could also see conversations between Dorothy and Fiyero about Elphaba (and there are many AO3 fics that have been going with that concept. I see y'all, thank you for doing the Lord's work 🙏🏻) and possibly some conversations between Dorothy and Boq since they'll be traveling together and we don't really get to hear about Boq's ending in the musical. I think the last we see of Boq is that he's angry at Elphaba for his condition and rallying crowds against her, but with all that traveling time and secrets coming out, I could see him getting, I don't know if I'd call it a "redemption arc" per say, but finding his heart again (a real one). Additionally, conversations between Dorothy and the lion about how Elphaba saved him would be nice too. Even if the lion had learned to blame Elphaba for what happened to him, I'm sure Dorothy would be quick to correct him once she discovered the full truth.

But my favorite, my absolute favorite and darkest possibility is the interactions that Dorothy can have with the Wizard. In the Wizard of Oz, she exposes him as a fraud, but in the Wicked movie, he's much worse than that, and I can totally see Dorothy being the one to point that out to him. Why?

First of all, Dorothy is not from Oz. Most people there would never question the Wizard, but if he's so powerful and generous, why is he sending an innocent little girl and three down-on-their-luck guys to go murder his dangerous enemy? That right there is a red flag, and again, if they don't change Dorothy's character, she's going to be a very honest child and comment on how strange this is.

Second of all, if anything I speculated above is true and Dorothy realizes this the Wizard is an animal abuser who vilified an innocent woman, she's going to be very angry at the Wizard, and rightfully so (I hope Toto bites him).

Third of all, and here's where it gets good: in the musical Wicked, the Wizard discovers he is Elphaba's father at the very end because of the bottle Galinda has. Dorothy is not on stage for that because she's not in the main cast of the musical, only mentioned by the other characters, but what if she was? What if she's the one that discovers the connection? What if she calls him out the exact same way Elphaba did after the Wizard gave his little "I always wanted to be a father" speech?

What if the Wizard had a little animal-loving girl who reminds him so much of the daughter he just sent to her to kill standing in front of him with a horrified expression while he puts the pieces together?

What if Dorothy's POV in Wicked isn't about her exposing the Wizard as a nervous fraud, but as a heartless monster?

What if Dorothy's POV is about her exploring this new world and discovering for herself who is truly wicked or good?

[iztarshi]

I'm not sure it makes it better, exactly, given the tropes and also given the screentime her ghost gets, but in a way I think Sky Young's insignificance to the plot is the point. It's not just that she doesn't matter to the viewer it's that she doesn't really matter to Viktor.

We see that he met her at least once as a child, but it doesn't seem as if they formed a connection then, and if anything it's the formative experience where Viktor learns that other children don't connect to him. That he's beneath their notice. We never see any sign that he remembers or is aware that it was her later.

Once she's working for him we mostly see Viktor dismissing her, focused on other things, treating her like an assistant. It's only once she dies that he really notices her. Reading her notes he's devastated to discover the dreams she had and how much she cared about him, when he scatters her ashes he tries to apologise to her for not knowing where she'd want them scattered. I think it's only then he realises how much he's changed to think anyone is beneath his notice.

As a ghost she doesn't have much personality because it's not her, it's Viktor holding onto a memory of someone he didn't actually know as if he can make up for not knowing her after the fact.

[bluelightglassesbitch]

I loved Polly Honeycombe’s reaction to learning Nell isn’t a man … she didn’t adamantly deny that truth or the truth that she was still attracted to Nell. Up until that point, we had only heard her talking and writing about men, but she didn’t have any revulsion or questioning. The audience saw no “Oh I guess I’m attracted to women now”, Polly just accepted that and kissed her not long after learning that info.

(This of course works toward the easy editing out of their kiss, but that was something good to come out of it. It refreshing that we didn’t see any complicated feelings within Polly discovering her queerness.)

[clownaddict]

Piltover has always been a segregated, classist shithole. The council just needed a good enough reason to pull the pin on Zaun. But idk if yall are ready to have that conversation

[menolly5600]

Dick Grayson, Ghost Superhero

👻🦇👻

I just found out and needed to share, that the Injustice version of Dick Grayson died and became a ghost superhero. He took up the Deadman mantle. He has flight, invisibility, intangibility and possession as his powers.

So all the basic Danny Phantom ghost powers.

The Injustice dimension had the Batfamily develop almost identically to the mainline dimension before the Joker broke Superman by killing Lois and his unborn child.

So, you know, it's DC canon there's a nearly mainline ghost Nightwing-Deadman out there being a ghost hero in another dimension.

And the Infinite Realms connect to other dimensions and timelines.

DC is out here writing DP x DC fanfiction for us and not realizing it.

And since this is one of the many alternate versions of Dick Grayson, you can have a fic with him and living Nightwing (and Danny Phantom in the mix) at the same time!

This stuff writes itself!

Tumblr, do your thing. ❤️

[thegreatyin]

unfortunately cups has genuinely become one of my favorite masters despite (or maybe even because of) how little canon information we have about it. its very own noman chooses to impersonate mirrors rather than having its own identity. it has control over clocks in the neath because it may-or-may-not be trying to control time itself. it refuses to give the nemesis PC "the disrespect of an apology" despite otherwise begging for its life. it's one of probably very very few curators to even consider the concept of ""spring cleaning"" for its hoard. it's a trash panda. it's a murderer. it's so insufferably self-aggrandizing it's absurd. it's writing evil fanfiction with the nemesis PC as the 7th in a long line of equally tortured rpf blorbos and everyone else just had to deal with that. the outline of cups as a character is fascinating and alas i am enraptured to the point where i kinda regret letting caeru murk it

[3gremlins]

so i've seen a lot of (really good/thoughtful) critique about how the lords of fortune not stealing from everybody indiscriminately is weird and kind of sanitized and doesn't really make sense in-world, and i see you all, totally agree and think you have very good points but also

i kinda saw them having a Qunari History Artifact Specialist on staff as specifically an Isabela thing as in "last time i stole a random cultural object b/c it was shiny it was a huge pain in the ass actually and i'd like to not do that ever again"

like kind of an in joke with izzy/da2 meta nod more than anything (which fair, doesn't make sense canonically and is jarring in world but i really think it's just there as an isabela joke and not meant to be anything more. i know there's party banter with taash that tries to justify it more which i agree is extra silly-like they're pirates, they should do morally grey pirate things and it's not as fun if they're not a little morally questionable. but i like the idea that isabela specifically is like "okay we should maybe double check if anyone is going to care about this object and follow us through hell and high water just to get it back. there's no way im going to befriend a disaster bisexual willing to fight for me twice")

[stargazingbitch]

I think the last lines from vi and Cait haven't been talked about enough actually. I know what the "I'm the dirt under your nails" means when It comes to their own relationship. They had difficult moments this season, the disagreed in a lot of ways because of where they came from.

But the conflict of the show has always been (at least in s1) this gap between the people of Piltover and zaun. Piltover oppressed zaunites and wanted to make them invisible, to erase them. But the tools that Jayce was using to build hextech came from a little shop in zaun. Marcus was the chief of police of that perfect city and he was still corrupted, negotiating with the man who controlled all of the undercity. The brilliant mind that saved Jayce and helped him with his proyect was borned and raised a zaunite. Counselor Salo was using a drug created in the deep parts of zaun to cure his body. Piltover wanted to be the city of progress being all shiny and perfect but the were cracks there, they wanted to erase their history, the city right beside them but they couldn't. And at the end they had to accept it, they always needed them to achieve actual progress

So Caitlyn asks "Are you still in this fight Violet?" There's still so much to do so, do you still want to get up and make things better? And Vi, a girl who always wanted to make things better for her people responds "I'm the dirt under your nails cupcake" "Nothing's gonna clean me out" We have always been here, we'll always be here, nothing can erase us

[catabasis]

i love the line “i still don't understand the play”, it's one of my favourites in the film, because it conveys so much and it perfectly encapsulates many of the themes of the film: it's about grief and how we can't fully understand death; it's about how art is subjective and how we sometimes express things through it subconsciously, how we are compelled to create without fully understanding what we're doing, how even Conrad can't give a definite explanation of what his play is about or how Midge isn't sure if her character is a ghost; it's about searching for meaning and our purpose in the universe; it's about not knowing why we do the things we do, why we burn our hand on the quickie-griddle or why we keep getting our heart broken every night; it's about not knowing how to move on, not understanding why it is important for three little girls to bury their dead mother next to an unmarked cactus but accepting it anyway; it's about not knowing how to feel or react in certain situations.

few things make sense in life, there's so much we don't understand, and maybe we're not meant to fully understand it. but it doesn't matter, just keep telling the story.

[onaslansside]

“a reformed monster”

🤔beloved, you are not

[caeslxys]

I am SO fascinated to get your take on BH's reaction to Ludinus and Downfall.

*****SPOILERS FOR 102 BELOW*****

As someone who left Downfall with a very negative view of the gods, it's interesting to me that BHs (in particular Imogen) kept saying "but you're just like them" about Ludinus and then not realizing that she was saying that the gods are no better than Ludinus fucking Da'Leth. Yeah, Luda is a hyprocrite. Do you realize that the gods are no better? The GODS.

And BHs comparing themselves to the primes/betrayers as this "fucked-up family" completely ignores the power differential. "They're just little guys! We all make mistakes" but you're saying that about entities that can literally sling 9th levels every 6 seconds without using any resources.

Nothing that can feel and be motivated by loss, rage, fear, and revenge should have that much power. Respectfully.

Sorry this took me so long to answer! I’ve been letting my own thoughts simmer and rewatching the episode in pieces to grasp the Many Many different things that happened on my own because it was Quite A Lot and some of it (the delilah of it all, funnily enough) left me immediately with an overall sense of disappointment that I wanted to sift through before talking Thoughts so that I could determine analysis from bias lol. BUT. I DO HAVE THOUGHTS

Long answer under the read more, but tldr: Apart from Orym, Ashton, and Dorian (simultaneously the most and least surprising!) I don’t think we’ve gotten the full breadth of BH’s opinions at all. In part because this a topic of discussion that requires them actually, well, discussing it to form fully rounded opinions on but also, crucially, because they were expressing opinions and emotions in front of Ludinus. This is important, because Orym/Ashton/Dorian make the most sense to have no reason for holding their true thoughts back in front of either him or the party (obviously in Orym and Ashton’s case, but I’ll be honest in not considering what is now obvious—Dorian has no idea who this guy actually is! Of course he wasn’t opposed to raising his perspective!), whereas other characters—namely Imogen—have many more internal steps and hurdles to actually reaching a conclusion that must happen outside of Ludinus’ eye.

Alright. Long version.

I think it truly speaks to the characters that the ones who reacted the most immediately decisive were Orym—the one whose opinions wouldn’t have changed regardless of what was held within that orb (which. sigh)—Ashton—the punk, anti-authoritarian character who has had an established perspective of the gods and their power for quite some time, perspectives that were in many ways cemented in viewing this piece of history rather than dispelled—and Dorian—someone who, as mentioned earlier, has the least amount of context for who Ludinus is, but who also himself was raised in a comparatively high position of social power so as to understand exactly what Ludinus is saying about the gods’ misusing theirs.

And, of course, Imogen. I’ll admit: I was immediately shocked at her response, but in hindsight of course she responded the way she did. I have talked and gushed and wailed before at how deeply empathetic Imogen is, and how it is also her ultimate fatal flaw (demonstrated explicitly here), so of course her first thought was how she saw the feelings and motives behind the decisions made in downfall and not how it was also an extreme over-reach of power and influence. Of course she did. I think the only person she’s incapable of empathizing with is Delilah lmao.

And to that point: A lot of that seemed, on a rewatch and to me, posturing on her part. So much of Imogen is defined by her guilt and shame and self-loathing and its especially prevalent when she is playing leader—a role she is naturally very good at, but doubts constantly because she does not consider herself “good”. So, often, she does what she thinks others perceive as “good” and “right” and keeps her more complex thoughts to herself until she is in a safe space (often with Laudna), and projects who she thinks others need her to be in the moment.

Laudna, in the same vein, also shocked me that she didn’t push the breach of power here. But, again, she is also right next to Imogen in “bells hells characters most driven by/capable of empathy” (though hers is, unlike Imogen’s, often in conflict with her desires in really compelling ways) so on further reflection—and especially taking into consideration the massive amount of shame she is feeling from swordgate—of course she focused on the empathetic side of it all.

Ultimately we didn’t get much time at all for them to actually discuss and dissect their take-aways on all of downfall in a setting and context that would be free of bias and performance. If i’m honest, I think those conversations need to happen individually instead of in a group, though maybe Dorian’s inclusion and obvious clear decision on his stance being more in line with Ludinus’ may just be enough for Orym alone not to break the conversational thread again with his personal grief (and guilt, but that’s another post lol). I think their real opinions have yet to solidify even for themselves, and we’ll see them truly form in the coming episodes. The Delilah of it all notwithstanding.

Speaking of Orym’s refusal to think about anything—I think he and Imogen both are suffering from Predathos tunnel vision. Honestly I’d argue a good portion of fandom is as well. None of that conversation is ultimately about Predathos, it was about the gods and the role they play and the power they use or over-use or deserve. By focusing so intently on what we all already agree is the wrong and bad solution to this problem, we ignore the problem entirely. It’s one of my main issues with Orym’s stance this whole campaign. If we don’t ask what is to be done with the gods, and the campaign just wraps up with “we defeated the bad guys, yay!” well. What of the ruidusborn, who we know are treated unfairly and unkindly and who suffer through no fault of their own. What of the young vanguard members—the kids—who, also, are only guilty of caving to the idea of peace. What of Aeor, what of Ludinus—what of the cycle that birthed them both. To not engage with the questions being asked for hyperfixating on the Predathos of it all is to leave this campaign, in my opinion, on both a deeply unsatisfying but also deeply hopeless note. The cycle will continue. We may not see it—it may be another thousand, two thousand years before another Ludinus rises—but another Ludinus or Aeor or both will rise, because ultimately no change will have been implemented in the problems which resulted in them.

And—final note, promise—I was talking to a friend about this yesterday but when it comes down to acknowledging the societal implications of downfall, especially in Imogen’s case, I do think it’s going to have to be pointed out first. A lot of Bells Hells are characters who have suffered at the very hands they are trying to save, but also suffered in part and specifically due to a lack of access to knowledge about it all. It does not escape me that the very first scene of campaign three is Imogen attempting to gather knowledge on powers that have made her miserable for a decade and being unable to access them in a library due to her station. That is, to me, more and more becoming the underpinning theme of this campaign—especially as all Ludinus is doing in this moment with the Occultus Thalamus is displaying it; again, obviously Ludinus is wrong in his means (and arrogant in his assumptions that just because of his failures that no one else could find a solution) but this, specifically, the spreading of knowledge—that, I 100% find myself in agreeance with. So it’s not that they won’t understand what characters like Ashton and Dorian, both hyperaware of the implications of power here, are or will be saying. It’s that they literally do not know to think about it like that. Why would they. It has been intentionally kept from them.

Anyway I have no idea if that was uh. Sufficient Enough of an answer adksfjd at some point I just started yapping but! I’m intrigued, especially because of Dorian’s adamant belief, in what conclusions they’ll draw moving forward as the discussions truly begin! Hopefully! Hopefully they will discuss it!

[utilitycaster]

I have not finished the latest WBN episode but it is darkly funny to me that in the CR fandom there's a lot of ongoing discussion of "is it understandable that one might strike down the imperial wizard city for explicitly trying to kill all the gods" and in my (rather more limited) experience of the WBN fandom, people have been gunning for the destruction of the imperial wizard city for, among other things, possibly trying to bind the (effectively) gods to service since day one.

[mettywiththenotes]

It's convenient how we never saw Tenko's reaction after he killed his family

Like we see him jump at his dad, kill him, stand in the ruins of his house dripping with blood with a smile... and yet we don't see how he reacted after that

Because obviously there had to be a point between "smiling as I kill my family because the source of my stress is gone" and "quietly walking through the city dazed holding my bloodied hands and unable to speak"

At some point there had to be a deep unsettling realisation of what he did, and I have a feeling we're still yet to see it. That moment when the smile fades away and he's left with his dead family and the ruins of his house, the realisation that he did this, the horrifying thought that he's the monster who destroyed everything, the start of the walk away from the house, stuck in that guilt and horror as his throat closes up

I feel like we're gonna see that. The part that wasn't shown to us. The proof in the reaction that Tomura does not exist to destroy. Something, among other details I'm sure, that proves to both him and Izuku that he never actually wanted to kill his family

[diathadevil]

Do you ever think about how Fakir, after him and Ahiru finally broke everything that kept the town of Goldkröne in the ghostly hands of its writer, after they finally have some air of peace over the town finally being able to live in its intended early 2000s environment, that Fakir still feels at times like it's not real and that for a while he fears that if he closes his eyes it'll be back in Drosselmeyer's control. Like it just doesn't feel real to him during that first year of calm, until he feels the dull pain on his recovering hand injury and Ahiru who follows him without a pendant anywhere to be found.

He doesn't feel it's real, the calm finality of this town, but he makes sure to feel the scar on his hand. And he makes sure to hold the little duck and realize that she is who she has always been. Him and the town are finally living peacefully.

[wardensantoineandevka]

once you start, like, unpacking that the Trapp family installed mirrored windows on the trains and sealed off the maintenance tunnel where not just the lighthouse fell but the rift was located, it gets so bonkers huh...