#i could make a whole post on ashton and imogen and how they are both punks

[caeslxys]

I am SO fascinated to get your take on BH's reaction to Ludinus and Downfall.

*****SPOILERS FOR 102 BELOW*****

As someone who left Downfall with a very negative view of the gods, it's interesting to me that BHs (in particular Imogen) kept saying "but you're just like them" about Ludinus and then not realizing that she was saying that the gods are no better than Ludinus fucking Da'Leth. Yeah, Luda is a hyprocrite. Do you realize that the gods are no better? The GODS.

And BHs comparing themselves to the primes/betrayers as this "fucked-up family" completely ignores the power differential. "They're just little guys! We all make mistakes" but you're saying that about entities that can literally sling 9th levels every 6 seconds without using any resources.

Nothing that can feel and be motivated by loss, rage, fear, and revenge should have that much power. Respectfully.

Sorry this took me so long to answer! I’ve been letting my own thoughts simmer and rewatching the episode in pieces to grasp the Many Many different things that happened on my own because it was Quite A Lot and some of it (the delilah of it all, funnily enough) left me immediately with an overall sense of disappointment that I wanted to sift through before talking Thoughts so that I could determine analysis from bias lol. BUT. I DO HAVE THOUGHTS

Long answer under the read more, but tldr: Apart from Orym, Ashton, and Dorian (simultaneously the most and least surprising!) I don’t think we’ve gotten the full breadth of BH’s opinions at all. In part because this a topic of discussion that requires them actually, well, discussing it to form fully rounded opinions on but also, crucially, because they were expressing opinions and emotions in front of Ludinus. This is important, because Orym/Ashton/Dorian make the most sense to have no reason for holding their true thoughts back in front of either him or the party (obviously in Orym and Ashton’s case, but I’ll be honest in not considering what is now obvious—Dorian has no idea who this guy actually is! Of course he wasn’t opposed to raising his perspective!), whereas other characters—namely Imogen—have many more internal steps and hurdles to actually reaching a conclusion that must happen outside of Ludinus’ eye.

Alright. Long version.

I think it truly speaks to the characters that the ones who reacted the most immediately decisive were Orym—the one whose opinions wouldn’t have changed regardless of what was held within that orb (which. sigh)—Ashton—the punk, anti-authoritarian character who has had an established perspective of the gods and their power for quite some time, perspectives that were in many ways cemented in viewing this piece of history rather than dispelled—and Dorian—someone who, as mentioned earlier, has the least amount of context for who Ludinus is, but who also himself was raised in a comparatively high position of social power so as to understand exactly what Ludinus is saying about the gods’ misusing theirs.

And, of course, Imogen. I’ll admit: I was immediately shocked at her response, but in hindsight of course she responded the way she did. I have talked and gushed and wailed before at how deeply empathetic Imogen is, and how it is also her ultimate fatal flaw (demonstrated explicitly here), so of course her first thought was how she saw the feelings and motives behind the decisions made in downfall and not how it was also an extreme over-reach of power and influence. Of course she did. I think the only person she’s incapable of empathizing with is Delilah lmao.

And to that point: A lot of that seemed, on a rewatch and to me, posturing on her part. So much of Imogen is defined by her guilt and shame and self-loathing and its especially prevalent when she is playing leader—a role she is naturally very good at, but doubts constantly because she does not consider herself “good”. So, often, she does what she thinks others perceive as “good” and “right” and keeps her more complex thoughts to herself until she is in a safe space (often with Laudna), and projects who she thinks others need her to be in the moment.

Laudna, in the same vein, also shocked me that she didn’t push the breach of power here. But, again, she is also right next to Imogen in “bells hells characters most driven by/capable of empathy” (though hers is, unlike Imogen’s, often in conflict with her desires in really compelling ways) so on further reflection—and especially taking into consideration the massive amount of shame she is feeling from swordgate—of course she focused on the empathetic side of it all.

Ultimately we didn’t get much time at all for them to actually discuss and dissect their take-aways on all of downfall in a setting and context that would be free of bias and performance. If i’m honest, I think those conversations need to happen individually instead of in a group, though maybe Dorian’s inclusion and obvious clear decision on his stance being more in line with Ludinus’ may just be enough for Orym alone not to break the conversational thread again with his personal grief (and guilt, but that’s another post lol). I think their real opinions have yet to solidify even for themselves, and we’ll see them truly form in the coming episodes. The Delilah of it all notwithstanding.

Speaking of Orym’s refusal to think about anything—I think he and Imogen both are suffering from Predathos tunnel vision. Honestly I’d argue a good portion of fandom is as well. None of that conversation is ultimately about Predathos, it was about the gods and the role they play and the power they use or over-use or deserve. By focusing so intently on what we all already agree is the wrong and bad solution to this problem, we ignore the problem entirely. It’s one of my main issues with Orym’s stance this whole campaign. If we don’t ask what is to be done with the gods, and the campaign just wraps up with “we defeated the bad guys, yay!” well. What of the ruidusborn, who we know are treated unfairly and unkindly and who suffer through no fault of their own. What of the young vanguard members—the kids—who, also, are only guilty of caving to the idea of peace. What of Aeor, what of Ludinus—what of the cycle that birthed them both. To not engage with the questions being asked for hyperfixating on the Predathos of it all is to leave this campaign, in my opinion, on both a deeply unsatisfying but also deeply hopeless note. The cycle will continue. We may not see it—it may be another thousand, two thousand years before another Ludinus rises—but another Ludinus or Aeor or both will rise, because ultimately no change will have been implemented in the problems which resulted in them.

And—final note, promise—I was talking to a friend about this yesterday but when it comes down to acknowledging the societal implications of downfall, especially in Imogen’s case, I do think it’s going to have to be pointed out first. A lot of Bells Hells are characters who have suffered at the very hands they are trying to save, but also suffered in part and specifically due to a lack of access to knowledge about it all. It does not escape me that the very first scene of campaign three is Imogen attempting to gather knowledge on powers that have made her miserable for a decade and being unable to access them in a library due to her station. That is, to me, more and more becoming the underpinning theme of this campaign—especially as all Ludinus is doing in this moment with the Occultus Thalamus is displaying it; again, obviously Ludinus is wrong in his means (and arrogant in his assumptions that just because of his failures that no one else could find a solution) but this, specifically, the spreading of knowledge—that, I 100% find myself in agreeance with. So it’s not that they won’t understand what characters like Ashton and Dorian, both hyperaware of the implications of power here, are or will be saying. It’s that they literally do not know to think about it like that. Why would they. It has been intentionally kept from them.

Anyway I have no idea if that was uh. Sufficient Enough of an answer adksfjd at some point I just started yapping but! I’m intrigued, especially because of Dorian’s adamant belief, in what conclusions they’ll draw moving forward as the discussions truly begin! Hopefully! Hopefully they will discuss it!

[utilitycaster]

In the most recent CR episode I found it really interesting (and really concerning) that it Laudna's truth about wanting Bells Hells to ripcord out of saving the world came hot on the heels of Imogen's truth about not wanting to save the gods

Idk it could just be me, but it seemed like her truth was just another attempt to placate Imogen's moral confusion, while simultaneously pushing those things back onto the whole group

All it makes me think of is the fanon and 4SD discussions about Imogen and Laudna retiring to a farm and living happily ever after. What are either of their reasons for remaining with Bells Hells at this point, if their truths are that they don't want to save the world?

See, that actually seemed fine to me! Fearne had earlier admitted she felt they were ill-equipped for the job and likely to fail, so it's not just them who feel it, and honestly I think that Laudna's confession was one of the more valid ones that I hope get unpacked. Fjord and Jester made a very similar admission to each in both episode 72 and episode 118 of Campaign 2, of "hey, wouldn't it be nice if we just ran away somewhere quiet and never had to deal with this again" and I think that having that admission and then finding a way forward anyway is a really great moment. I didn't write at length about how Orym's "but we have to work together and do this" has also been a really big factor in the party's dysfunction because I covered a lot of that in my discussion of how he handles his own grief well and the grief and pain of others very badly, but honestly it's good that Fearne and Laudna are getting to "we don't have to do this, this was always thrust upon us because an old guy brought us to a cool orc who hired us to look into some stuff and in the process found out that the comparatively small-time political crook was tangentially involved in a a vast cosmic death cult conspiracy that several of our parents are also involved with."

My issue with Imogen is that she literally said two episodes ago she's never prayed and now she's claiming the gods never listened to her, as well as that her reasoning is the horrifyingly self-absorbed "they don't love her", but I actually think it's fine if this party does not wish to save the gods on the grounds of "we feel underqualified and overwhelmed and like we've been at the mercy of many (mortal) masters with no time to pursue our own interests." And I think that Laudna didn't force this specific thing on the rest of the party; she said they could all ripcord, but didn't say who should do it or who felt that way or force them into agreement.

I've talked about the campaign's earlier pacing at length and I don't want to revisit it at length because it evened out, but more so than any other party, Bells Hells has rarely had self-directed adventures. That's a big reason why they're such a mess; they didn't need to develop the tools to come to consensus because Eshteross or Ryn or Keyleth would give them tasks, so we never actually have delved particularly deeply into what most of the party members want to be doing, which is why we're here with this group that's mostly stuck together because they've had jobs to do. I think acknowledging that is an important step, because the task at hand (scouting on Ruidus) is in my opinion within their abilities, but they've been pushed and pushed and have finally reached a point where they can't just keep going. (This by the way is the underlying premise of this post; this is the fundamental reality of Bells Hells as a party. If you like that the most then hell yeah, but a lot of people who claim to love C3 are blaming the entire plot of the campaign for why the party is a mess which is like, so you like the premises of these characters and dislike the vast majority of the actual story in which they exist, and you really just want the story of Campaign 1 or Campaign 2 but Ashton is there.)

With that said though, I do agree that's kind of at the core of Imogen and Laudna. They're so insular, and that's been claimed as a feature, not a bug, for much of the fanon of that relationship. Like, I think Laudna is valid for this specific statement, but unlike Fjord and Jester, who had established in through the course of the campaign both deep ties to each of the rest of the Mighty Nein and a profound sense of responsibility in general, I find myself wondering why Imogen and Laudna don't go off and live in a cottage together and leave the rest of the party to handle this. I mean, Imogen is also impossibly tied up in the fate of Ruidus, but she dithers about the approach so much I wonder why she doesn't decide that perhaps she should stay out of it altogether and retire to that cottage with Laudna until it's all over.

Personally, my thought is that Imogen does in fact secretly like being the special Ruidusborn Exaltant On The Other Side, especially since she's realized her mother wasn't that (as she had hoped). I agree with the fairly common opinion that Imogen and Ashton are in many ways extremely similar people, but whereas Ashton just got a very brutal wake up call of "your parents did fuck up and you're not built different and your desperate attempt to be something special could have hurt everyone" Imogen is still out here going full Javert on everyone's personal thoughts. So I suspect she won't ripcord out in the end, and therefore Laudna won't. But I do think it's valid for Laudna to bring up, and indeed, one of the many things that would make great progress in fixing this party dynamic would be Laudna independently expressing her own needs some more instead of being Imogen's Yes-Woman or projecting her own desires onto other people as I suspect she's doing with Fearne and the shard.

[undead-knick-knack]

Hi :)

You are one of the only people I really see on here that posts anything about ashton/laudna (and your posts always make me laugh) and I was wondering when you first started shipping the two of them?

Personally, I started to become fond of their relationship in episode 2 when Laudna first introduced Pate to the group. Ashton was so entertained and expressed his interest and how he never wanted it to end. It stood out to me that everyone else was in a way holding back (or outwardly expressing) their discomfort, with Imogen even saying that she never got used to it, even after two years of traveling together. It made me happy that Laudna had at least one person in the group who wasn't immediately put off by her creepy nature. Ashton and Laudna were already two of my favorite characters and I love their dynamic.

I also never really understood why this ship is not as popular as some of the other ships. I'm not bashing other ships at all, but the disinterest in this relationship is interesting when looking at it through the lens of someone who has been shipping them most of the time. idk it just makes sense to me.

i just love how surprisingly honest and healthy their relationship is and I just wanted to know your thoughts.

TLDR: I would love to know when you started shipping Ashton and Laudna and some of your general thoughts on their realtionship? Love the posts <3

Oh this is so sweet!! I’m glad my tomfoolery makes you laugh <3 

As for when I started shipping them, that was way back in March of this year (I rarely start shipping characters right away, hella impressed how early you were on this shit), I had enjoyed their dynamic before that but what really got me on board with them as a ship was this post by svartalfhild (which they’ve expanded on since initial posting). They did a great job articulating and consolidating everything I like about Ashton/Laudna 😊 

As for what /I/ like about them personally, that includes the whole Brick Shithouse/Breakable Bird-Boned Waif dynamic, most recently highlighted in the latest episode of Ashton (the barbarian) making sure to look out for Laudna (the squishy spellcaster) during the fight with Werewolf Chetney  I also enjoy their contrasting personalities. Ashton’s exterior is very rough but actually has a heart of gold, while Laudna is the outwardly happy-go-lucky type but has a lot of darkness hiding behind that bubbly exterior. Neither shy away from the other’s interior or exterior and I feel like they help bring their more hidden aspects out of each other for the better  They both have a similar background of “physically fucked up after traumatic experience” (I even made a meme about that lol) which I think gives them a pretty unique point of common ground  Something you talked about was how Ashton genuinely enjoys who fucking weird and out there Laudna is, with Pate being a great of that. While everyone is horrified or just put off by something Laudna created as a coping mechanism to keep herself going crazy with loneliness, Ashton thinks it’s incredible, exemplified by him getting Pate a suit and never hesitating to interact directly with Pate  And something I mentioned to a friend a couple months back was how Ashton is touch adverse (this was before we knew about his chronic pain), whereas Laudna likes to be physically close with others. Ashton only seemed to be ok with physical touch when it’s violent, ie not wanting a massage at the spa but diving head first into a fight at the Ball, so I figured Laudna being so touchy feely would be great in getting Ashton to accept positive physical touch. But then even after learning that his touch-aversion is the result of chronic pain from his Kintsugi scars, I still think Laudna could be a positive source of physical touch for him since her cold dead skin could bring some pain relief for him 

So yeah while this isn’t /everything/ I like about their relationship and dynamic (I’m not the best at right meta or articulating my thoughts like this lol), these are definitely some of the main things I love about them 😊 

I am hoping as more time passes and Ashton and Laudna have more moments together, more people will catch on to them and join in on this fun little ship, I think the lack of interest or just general awareness stems from a lot of attention being focused elsewhere   Tho by-gods am I going to annoy this fandom with my Tombstone shenanigans and maybe even pspsps a few into joining us 😁    But anyway, I’m so glad you like my shitposts (even the ridiculously cringy ones 😁) and here’s to The Punk King and Undead Goth Queen of our hearts🖤 

[piratespencil]

I posted 4,139 times in 2022

That's 2,342 more posts than 2021!

204 posts created (5%)

3,935 posts reblogged (95%)

Blogs I reblogged the most:

@vethbrenatto

@gorgynei

@sparring-spirals

@likeappletrees

@piratespencilart

I tagged 4,138 of my posts in 2022

#critical role - 2,730 posts

#cr3 - 1,716 posts

#kk has a q - 1,309 posts

#cr2 - 1,061 posts

#critical role spoilers - 328 posts

#critical role - 298 posts

#cr spoilers - 298 posts

#gif - 213 posts

#neoscum - 193 posts

#kk talks about stuff - 168 posts

Longest Tag: 137 characters

#i saw a post at one point that was like ‘what if all of bell’s hells are ruidis-born?’ and honestly at this point i wouldn’t be surprised

My Top Posts in 2022:

#5

Liam created Derrig for the express purpose of setting up Orym years in advance??? Incredible.

430 notes - Posted July 28, 2022

#4

Sam: Are Keyleth and Percy having an affair??

Marisha: Ew no. Also it wouldn’t be an affair, Vex would totally be in on it, let’s be real.

Taliesin: Vex would’ve instigated it.

491 notes - Posted November 1, 2022

#3

I’m obsessed with Ashton “never take copper, that’s kicking someone when they’re down” Greymoore.

Ashton “that’s not a waste of space, that’s a person going through something” Greymoore.

Ashton “gives most of my gold to my found family” Greymoore.

Ashton “let’s get breakfast sandwiches for our new friends” Greymoore.

Ashton just keeps making statements/decisions that I completely didn’t expect from this character and I’m Living for it.

598 notes - Posted February 15, 2022

#2

While I don’t know that it was necessarily intentional, I do think it’s interesting that by the end of the episode, Ashton was the only one who successfully managed to run away from the fight.

Ashton, whose family ran and left them for dead when things went south.

Ashton, who straight up told Bell’s Hells early on that he would’ve done the same.

Ashton, who looked at everyone dropping and decided to run and just keep running, who ended up doing exactly what they said they’d do.

They ran.

732 notes - Posted September 9, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

Quick recap of all of the big character reveals from C3E17, because we got SO MUCH in this episode and I want to remember who said what to who. BIG SPOILERS below!!

Chetney

His tattoo apparently stands for “Recognize the Alpha” (told to Imogen)

He’s only been a werewolf for a few months!! (told to Orym)

Laudna

She was one of the people killed by the Briarwoods and hung from the Sun Tree as a warning to Vox Machina - they cut her ears to look half-elven, so she was presumably the Vex or Keyleth effigy (told to Orym)

FCG

They have some sort of current of (arcane?) energy running through them that might explain their odd behaviour in C3E16, but Milo couldn’t explain much about it or how to dispel it (told to FCG by Milo, Ashton and Orym were present)

Milo also said that FCG’s joints had very old wear and tear, possibly implying that FCG is older than two years?

FCG and Imogen were able to mind-meld by both casting Detect Thoughts at the same time, but Imogen wasn’t able to learn much more than what we already know about FCG’s backstory - but it was implied that there is more that Imogen wasn’t able to access

Imogen dreamed about the scent of fresh grass after sleeping with the Shade Mother’s stone - could be nothing? Could be something?

Fearne

Her parents left the Feywild many years ago (possibly when she was in her forties?) and have been sending her postcards from many places ever since, including from Aeor most recently (told to the whole party I think?)

Her parents are named Birdie and Oleander/Ollie, and her grandmother’s name is Morrigan/Morri (also told to the whole party?)

Imogen

She feels drawn to the stone that she took from the Shade Mother, and sleeping with it changed her reoccurring dream - she wanted to run into the storm (told to Laudna and possibly the rest of the party I think?)

She acquired a feywild shard that will allow her to roll on the wild magic table once a day

Imogen was able to mind-meld with FCG but he wasn’t able to learn much more about her backstory, either

Orym

Orym had a half-elf husband named Will who died six years ago during the attack on the Air Ashari - his tattoo represents him and his husband as “big moon and little moon” (told to Chetney)

Fearne and Dorian already knew about Will (told to Chetney)

He acquired a blue chromatic rose that will protect him from lightning damage - it was a blue flower found in a storm and it reminded him of Dorian

Orym put a bunch of yellow flowers on FCG when they were in stasis (this isn’t a character reveal, it’s just really cute)

Ashton

Ashton was born flesh and blood (presumably human) but started turning into their rocky earth genasi form sometime around the age of ten to twelve (told to Fearne)

As far as he knows, his skin and organs are made of stone (told to Fearne)

I think that’s everything? Please reblog this with anything that I missed because this episode had so much.

1,197 notes - Posted March 18, 2022

Get your Tumblr 2022 Year in Review →

[mysticalspiders]

Imogen and Invisible Illness

I’ve been ruminating on making a post like this for a while but have never been sure exactly what I wanted to say. But I’ve read some great Imogen meta and meta of the Bell’s Hells in general that has really inspired me to make this post (particularly this post by @darkdisrepair, this post by @funscarylaudna, and this post by @sparring-spirals )

I have never related to a critical role character (and possibly any character) more than I have Imogen. So much of her characterization and details resonate with me on such a deep level. There are probably many reasons for this but I think a big one is that Imogen and her dreams/constant press of people’s thoughts are a good representation of invisible, chronic illness that I think hasn’t been portrayed before (or isn’t portrayed very often, especially in fantasy). 

Imogen resonates with me, particularly as someone who has invisible, chronic illnesses that affect me physically and mentally and has experienced first hand the complected relationship between physical and mental pain.

The way Laura has subtly played both the acceptance of Imogen’s dreams/mind-reading abilities coupled with the desire to learn more and understand and potentially cure (?) them mixed with some of the harsh realities of Imogen’s life (difficulty with crowds, drinking having a negative effect on her health, etc) has been so accurate to my own personal experience. The struggle between feeling the burden of her mind reading/dreams and the acceptance of it. 

The difficulty Imogen has in expressing her need for space away from crowds and how she quietly sacrifices her health for the sake of the group (the ball, bars, etc). 

Imogen’s isolation in being the only one able to experience what she is experiencing and unable to find someone (so far) who truly understands what she goes through (this particularly being heightened by Imogen’s ability to understand what others are going through so much more than others threw her abilities).

The moment that hit me right in the chest was the line “I removed my mask and I'm standing over on the side, hand against the wall, just breathing.” It was played partly as a joke but I have been here before, I have done this. 

Not to mention, the hints of her relationship with her father and his reaction to her powers “It was hard for him, you know? Because I didn't want to be around very many people, and... he just kind of-- distanced himself because he knew it made me more comfortable, and... you know, the people in town started talking, and I think he tried to distance himself socially as well for a while to try to, you know. Not his fault, totally.” When she says these lines I know exactly what she’s talking about because this has been me. When I am my most sick I find it hard to be social and talk to people and so I distance myself from my family and friends and my family and friends distance themselves from me. 

I also have so many feelings about Imogen and Laudna’s connection and friendship and the way the Laudna supports Imogen through this lens (her acceptance of Imogen has she is, her advocacy for Imogen, her calm, grounded support and help). Laudna supports Imogen in such a beautiful way that grounds without minimizing, supports without pitying, listens without judgment or expectation. 

In fact, I think this party as a whole have a lot characters that could be read through chronic illness/disability/neurdivergent lenses. I’m particularly thinking of Imogen, with her telepathic mind and terrible headaches, and Ashton with their jeweled head. But FCG with their unusual body (?) and mind and Laudna with her undeadness fit into this reading and metaphor to a lesser extent as well.

This meta is a mess because I don’t really have much more to say than that I love Imogen and that Imogen might be the character I have most related to in my life and that I have never felt more seen. The representation of invisible illness has been wonderful and I am desperately excited to see how it develops across the rest of this campaign. 

[burr-ell]

Honestly, imodna would be a good ship if the shippers/stans weren’t so damn insufferable. I also hate how they act like they are already canon and you can’t ship Imogen or Laudna with anyone else in the group. People got so mad when the conversation in the dust storm happened with Ashton and Laudna because people thought they were flirting. Or when on the first episode of 4 sided dive Marisha asked Robbie if Dorian’s crush was on Imogen, people got so mad at that! I also hate that they call them lesbians when THEY HAVE BOTH EXPRESSED HAVING FEELINGS FOR BOYS! Why can’t they be bi? Or Pan? I also hate how people read into Laura’s micro expressions/ movements, like last episode with the whole leaning shit “oh what was that lean Laura?!! Imogen wanted to kiss Laudna because look at Laura’s lean!” I dread the day that Imogen or Laudna fall in love with someone that’s not each other(especially if that person is a man.) because Marisha and Laura will harassed and hated because they didn’t give the people what they wanted.

oof. that's some frustration you really needed to vent, nonnie, and honestly i get it. full disclosure—my mutuals who are into imo/dna are all lovely, and none of them engage in this behavior. if imo/dna becomes canon, i'll be happy for (and potentially even happy with) fans like that. but enough shippers are doing things like this that it's becoming more and more of a source of frustration and friction as the campaign goes on.

i think a lot of fandom—in general, not just cr—still doesn't want to acknowledge that at the end of the day, they are looking at things like shippers, with a particular kind of confirmation bias. it doesn't make them necessarily wrong or right, but as easy as it can be to get swept up in it, i think it's important to take a step back every once in awhile and re-evaluate.

now admittedly, generally speaking, it takes a lot for me to get really invested in a ship; i usually only have one or two per fandom, even fandoms with tons of characters. i'm generally pretty passive about most ships if it's not the otp; like, vax/leth and pike/lan, for example, didn't need to be romantic endgame for me to enjoy CR1 (and honestly might have been more interesting to me if they hadn't), but perc/ahlia absolutely made the show for me and i honestly think them being together actively strengthens the narrative as a whole.

i say all that to say that for the most part, i very much consider myself to be along for the ride with respect to most relationships in most fandoms. if such-and-such pairing happens, great; if they don't, okay. and with CR in particular, it's such a long-form medium that i know going in that any romance is going to take a while, and most of them probably won't just reach out and grab me.

and as such, it absolutely baffles me to have seen shippers insisting, from the moment the characters first appeared in episode 1, that not only are imogen and laudna canon endgame, they're basically already together and just haven't admitted it yet. i feel this way about dor/ym and callow/moore as well—i saw a post making the rounds that claimed that all three of those ships are "not canon YET but let's be real" and like...why would you set yourself up for disappointment like that? because yeah! all three of those ships could be endgame! but they could also not be endgame. we're less than 40 episodes into a campaign that'll probably run well into the 100s.

i also fully agree with you re: the microexpressions and the cherrypicking, and i feel like a microcosm of this issue can be found in a conversation imogen has with orym early on—shippers latched onto the fact that imogen compares laudna's thoughts to music, something that finally brought her peace after the chaos of the world around her, and completely ignored the part immediately after where imogen says that the rest of the party also feels like that to her. i didn't even know that imogen said that about the whole party until i watched the episode, and to me it's an example of how shippers tend to warp canon interactions to suit a particular narrative in such a way that they become almost entirely divorced from their context.

and from the outside looking in, what confuses me about this sort of thing is like...didn't y'all already go through this? because if my understanding is correct, c2 ship discourse was full to the brim with beau/jes and wido/jest fans dissecting "laura's microexpressions" to prove that jester was for sure in love with our fave, really you guys we swear...and then not only was that not true, but jester also didn't even know about beau or caleb's feelings to acknowledge them at all, and from the actual words that came out of laura's mouth in various OOC moments like on TM, laura just...really really wanted to romance her husband's character in her dnd game and like, that's it. there was never going to be another romantic option for jester as long as fjord was on the table, and that was something that shippers always should have been taking into account.

laudna and imogen are canonically deeply important to each other. they love and appreciate each other very much. that love and appreciation could turn into a lovely romance with a great dynamic, and i certainly don't blame people for being invested in it. but it also could not be romantic endgame, and they remain friends or even get with other people. and as you said, fandom can and will turn nasty about their ships being sunk; we've already seen it happen. there's a certain smug, entitled undercurrent from that particular corner that i have very little patience with, and while i think there's something to be said for deciding to enjoy things in spite of the fandom and just be a cranky old curmudgeon shooing the wank out with a broom, i also understand the response of just "...aight, imma head out".

[utilitycaster]

Do you think that the issues with Imogen and Laudna ties into the campaign being more railroaded (compared to C2 specifically) and with less campfire conversations, shopping episodes etc. where more organic character development can happen? While I do find all C3 character's interesting on their own, I feel like most of their relationships with one another are more shallow compared to C2 (that had the Empire Siblings, Veth and Caleb, The Detectives etc.). Do you have any thoughts on this?

I don't actually think so!

I agree that we haven't had as much downtime - and that more downtime would help flesh out all the relationships - but Imogen and Laudna have talked frequently, and all of these things would have helped and wouldn't have taken up significantly more time.

They still don't really feel like they've known each other two years. I bring up that they have because I feel like that fact should be informing their relationship and that they should have the security to disagree with each other, but the fact remains that Caleb and Veth, Fjord and Jester, and Yasha and Molly felt like they'd known each other before the campaign and Imogen and Laudna...really don't. Like, we know they met in Gelvaan, people were doing something to Laudna, Imogen used her powers, they ran off, and they arrived in Jrusar a few months prior to the campaign, but that leaves the entire middle year-plus as a big empty blank. (For what it's worth, I'm also still like, yes, Laudna, I get that you were in the woods for 30 years doing crafts and making Pate, but like, make me feel it; why were you in a point of stasis? Ironically, I feel like Ashton has more sense of history even though the whole point is that they don't feel like that. Fearne was just bopping around at her Grandmas for 90 years and she feels like it. This is a whole separate post but like...this came up with Patia too; I feel like Marisha has a good sense of her characters in the present, but I don't always get a sense that she fills in the backstory in the same depth as much of the rest of the cast; and Laura also tends to work from something a bit more solid in terms of ambiance and vibes but often doesn't have a ton of intricate plot beats. Anyway, point being that Marisha and Laura fleshing out those two years would have done tons of work for the relationship, and that was pre-campaign and totally unaffected by the pace of the campaign.

Any one of these existing conversations could have been a turning point - ie, this is no more extra time. They could have leaned into the gnarlrock fight being a betrayal; when they spoke in the Calloway Getaway they could have talked more; Imogen could have actually asked Laudna to come back (or even said "it's your choice" rather than "I can't ask you"); Imogen could have actually asked Laudna how she felt and what would have been upsetting to her after she was resurrected instead of making assumptions and just telling Vex; last episode, as I said, Laudna could have quite literally just said "I want you to be happy but if you side with Otohan I can't come with you."

I think this is brushing up against something I really try to avoid, which is removing the agency that the women in the cast have. If Marisha and Laura wanted Imogen and Laudna to kiss last episode? they could have. They chose not to. As I mentioned before, Marisha decided to have Laudna have a drink with Ashton. On the airship to Yios, for example, the two of them could, in fact, have said "I go seek out (the other)," and they didn't. There is less organic time to do this the way there was in the Nein campaign, but that does not mean there haven't been opportunities. They've chosen not to take them.

Which means I also think we need to ask ourselves: how do we know that this isn't how Marisha and Laura want to play it? Like, it is, actually, a very interesting dynamic, and the gaps in the backstory honestly work in favor of it if you see this as a codependence that came because both were so trapped in their own loneliness they became stuck rather than a fluffy cottagecore romance. Why assume these actors are aiming for something and falling short, rather than achieving precisely what they want?