#Bruce Wayne meta

[batboopp]

batman should be campy because a billionaire playboy orphan who witnessed his parents get shot in front of him, who then started dressing up as a flying rodent while fighting a clown, a lawyer, a plant lady, and some other rich guys is inherently campy. it’s silly and tragic and confusing all at once. let him be campy again plz 💔

[a-bad-case-of-the-stephs]

How Batman uses the idea of those "born for" vigilantism to justify working with Teen Vigilantes before and after the death of Jason Todd, and what it has to do with Stephanie Brown.

(DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to condemn the concept of child/teen vigilantes in superhero comics, its a staple of the genre and dumb to condemn it like you would in the real world. I'm analyzing the times in which Bruce Wayne the character has questioned the concept himself, and the rationalizations he comes to about it)

By examining Bruce Waynes mindset immediately before, during, and after Jason Todd's deadly time as Robin, we can see how Batman rationalizes and justifies teenaged vigilantism.

When Dick Grayson as Robin is shot by the Joker, Batman essentially fires him from being Robin. Bruce entirely dismisses the concept of working with a "child" to fight crime. Batman seems to believe working with Dick as Robin is simply too dangerous.

Batman #408 (1940)

His Mindset at this point: Teenaged Vigilantism = Dangerous and Bad

But this, obviously, doesn't stick. It barely takes any time at all after this forBruce Wayne to take in Jason Todd and subsequently make him the second Robin.

Crime fighting with a 19 year old is too dangerous, but crime fighting with the 12 year old? Yeah, sure, why not!

There is an obvious contradiction, and a clear change in mindset.

In order to rationalize his choice to take in Jason Todd as Robin after firing Dick, Bruce Wayne must internally reendorse the concept of Teenaged Vigilantism. And he does so in a specific way:

Batman #410 (1940)

Mindset: If Jason Todd was not Robin, he would become a criminal and die

The dying part is specific as well. When confronted at first by Alfred, its more of an afterthought, something which would occur down the criminal "road" Jason was bound to end up on. But when he is later confronted by Dick, the idea that being Robin "saved" Jasons life takes center stage.

Batman #416 (1940)

It's no longer some distant crime related death Jason was on course for, it was an imminent death which Bruce was able to save him from.

Mindset: If Jason Todd was not Robin, his "self destructive energies" and lack of "self esteem" would have killed him.

This phrasing is SUPER interesting to me, because its not true in a very specific way.

1. Jason Todd wasn't really shown to have "Self destructive energies" before he became Robin. He was stealing to make a living, to stay alive. He never showcases a desire for "self destruction", unless you count his hitting Batman with a tire iron, and his interference in Ma Gunn’s heist. Which I don't.

2. It seems to imply Jason Todd might have died because of specifically "self destructive tendancies", which seems ascribes a small amount of passive potential suicidal ideation, which is also vastly unsubstantiated by anything we see from Jason before he becomes Robin. But you know who is a character who is deeply rooted in concepts of suicidal ideation? Batman. (I'm not going prove this point here, but this concept gets more firmly rooted in the upcoming years after this comic, Knightfall being a great example) Being Batman, Knightfall will establish, is pretty much all that keeps Bruce Wayne living. You could say that being Batman saved his life.

3. Bruce admits he took Jason on because he was lonely in this very same confrontation when Dick pushes him on this idea. This makes it abundantly clear why he needs this rationalization in the first place, his real reason for making Jason Robin appears to be somewhat selfish.

But what does this all mean? For one, it proves that Batman's primary explanation for why he took on Jason Todd is lowgrade BS. It also shows how Batman's rationalization has begun to veer into projection. He states that Jason was saved from his self destructiveness by becoming Robin, something that is certainly true for himself, but not really Jason.

We see this projection fully take root when Leslie Thompkins confronts Bruce. Not only is Jason Todd saved by becoming Robin, now he wasn't even chosen by Batman. It was, much like Bruce Wayne becoming Batman, inevitable. Something he was "born" to do.

Detective #574

Mindset: I didn't chose Jason, he was chosen, he is just like me, we were born for this

This is essential. This mindset will show up again and again as a core part of Bruce's ability to rationalize working with child vigilantes once Jason has died.

Lets look at how his mindset has been evolving from before he meets Jason to his time as Robin progressing. Batman has gone from:

Teenage/Child vigilante Bad --> Child Vigilante Good because Jason would have become a crimial --> Child Vigilante Good because Jason would have died, I saved his life --> Child Vigilante is Good because I saved his life and Jason was meant to be Robin just like I was meant to be Batman, this is what we were was born to do

This is insane rationalization. But it works. For a while.

Then, Jason begins acting out, and putting himself in danger. Whoops. uh oh! How can Jason be saved by becoming Robin, if he is endangered by it? The balm for Bruce's semi-suicidal ideation was crime fighting, so if Jason is self destructive as Robin, does that mean Jason isn't like Bruce after all? Does that mean he wasn't born to be Robin? Was Bruce right in the begining? Is Teen Vigilantism Bad? Well, lucklily, the rationalization Bruce has built doesnt need to change too much in order to accommodate these new facts.

Batman #426 (1940)

See, this issue has not reverted back to being child vigilantism, it's the fact that Jason isn't ready yet.

Batman #426 (1940) / Batman #427

Batman latches onto this idea, he identifies it as "the problem". Is he wrong? No, not really. It does seem like Jason needs come to terms with his parents deaths. But this is important because it is still a rationalization for mindset he started with, still part of the reason he can be in favor of Teenage Vigilantism.

Then Jason Todd dies, as Robin. That truly breaks the underlying concept for this rationalization, that being Robin saved Jason Todd. The entire justification has fully shattered, and Bruce Wayne has lost a son. And, so because of this, in the wake of Jason Todds death, we see a full 180 revert back to the idea Bruce held onto at the end of Dick Graysons time as Robin: Teenage Vigilante = Bad.

Batman #428/ The New Teen Titans #55 (1984) / Batman #439

He has fully rejected the very concept of working with anyone, including the now adult Nightwing. He is literally right back where we started, with even deeper convictions against working with someone else (especially a kid) ever again.

But we all know this doesn't stick. He takes on 13 year old Tim Drake as Robin not long at all afterwards. As the 90's progress Bruces goes on to work with a huge variety of other vigilantes and partners, both teenaged and adult.

So how does he possibly justify this?

I believe he retrofits his rationalization for taking on Jason as Robin.

He adheres to a primary idea. The idea that some people are, like him, simply built for Vigilantism. That they, much like he once believed Jason was, "born" for it.

Mindset: Child Vigilantle is not always Good, but it can be Good. When its the right kind of teenager. Some Teenaged Vigilantes are meant to be Vigilantes just like I was meant to be Batman.

In this way, Jason Todds tragic murder is not a failure of concept, it a category error. Batmans mistake was not working with a teenager, his mistake was working with the wrong kind of teenager. Jason Todd was not built for vigilantism. But others are. This means he's still totally in the clear to work with teenagers, Tim Drake as Robin, then Cassandra Cain as Batgirl, and then eventually Stephanie Brown as Spoiler. So long as Bruce is able to believe they are "born" for it, that they are like Batman himself, meant to do this, and incapable of living a normal life, there is no contradiction, his rationalization holds.

But where’s the proof?

This mindset can be clearly seen and prominently seen when Stephanie Brown is fired as Spoiler.

When Steph is fired as Spoiler because she has moved in Bruce's mind from the "acceptable Teen Vigilante" category into the "unacceptable Teen Vigilante category". And the reasons he gives for this decision are exactly in line with the rationalization I've lain out. She is consistently contrasted to other teen vigilante characters who are fit for duty because he does not see her as "like him/them".

Detective #790

Notice how he jumps right from "Jason and Stephanie were/are not fit to fight crime" to "they could/can have a normal life" right to "unlike me and you, Cassandra Cain, who are stuck fighting crime forever". Much like how he originally justified his decision to work with Jason Todd as Robin through the idea that Jason and Bruce were both destined for this life, he applies the exact same idea, but this time, about himself and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl. And in contrast to them, and in directly comparison to Jason Todd, Stephanie is not meant for crime fighting.

Batgirl #38 (2000)

And Stephanie Brown is contrasted with Cass again, when Bruce first explains why he fired Steph to Cass. This is a consistent pattern. She is not like Cass. This is why she shouldn’t be a vigilante.

When he explains that he is going to fire Steph as Spoiler to Tim, he says something very interesting which invokes the same idea. In the list of three reasons he throw out that Steph shouldn't be Spoiler, he mentions that she is going to "throw her life away". When taken in combination with the other panels discussed, its clear to me that he means this is the common way the saying is used. That she is wasting her life by being a vigilante, that she should, as he mentions earlier, be living a normal life. But why is he saying this to Tim? If one of the reasons Steph shouldn't be Spoiler is her ability to lead a normal life, why the fuck is Tim exempt? I think it comes from a genuine belief that Tim is "like him". Unable to live a normal, non-vigilante life, "born" for crime fighting. Much like Cass, who we already saw him directly compare himself to in this exact same way. Thats why he can directly reference to Tim Steph's ability to have a normal life as a reason she shouldn't be a vigilante, he doesn't believe Tim fits the same category at all!

Robin #106 (1993)

So why the fuck does Stephanie move categories? She was acceptable earlier? What changed?

I've already done an in-depth explanation for what the subconscious underlying reason Bruce fires Stephanie: she simply is no longer useful to as a balm for his loneliness. I highly recommend checking out the post here if you are interested in the breakdown of why and how.

But in addition to that, it’s clear to me that it also has a weird amount to do with Jason Todd.

Stephanie simply and clearly reminds Bruce of Jason Todd. He points out their similarities in personality, and it’s worth mentioning the similarities in their circumstances as well (mothers who struggle(d) with drug addiction, and fathers who were criminals).

As we saw in Detective #790, their personality similarities led to Batman associating Steph with Jason. This makes sense, this association would only grow as he got to know her over the time she is sanctioned as Spoiler.

I believe this association leads to him eventually placing her in the same category as Jason, as not "born" for vigilantism at all, and as capable of having a normal life.

But it also serves as a clear way to rectify his mistakes with Jason. It’s his way of “making up for” his role in Jason's death. It’s his second chance. Never mind that this second chance leads to his assessment of Stephanie having very little to do with Steph herself, and a whole fucking lot to do about Bruce’s guilt over Jason’s death.

This is especially brutal because it seems to come from a place of genuine care (and a selfish desire to assuage his guilt too), but Stephanie doesn't get the tender moment of explanation and grief and regret that Cassandra hears. She doesn't get to know this.

What she gets, is to be told point blank that she is fired because she just isn't good enough. She gets to hear that she lacks the "skills and talent" from the same man who originally came to her to train her because he finally saw and recognized her potential. She gets told she will never be good enough by the guy who told her that she could learn and improve under his instruction. She gets two sentences. She has to fight for any more.

I cannot emphasize enough the fact that she had to track Bruce down to get an explanation for why he was suddenly ghosting her. He didn't even have the decency to tell her himself. Stephanie had to track Bruce down just so she could find out that he gave up on her.

Stephanie gets a blunt lie about why she is fired. And Bruce Wayne gets to feel good about "correcting" a mistake that had nothing to do with Stephanie. Stephanie gets cut off from her friends. Bruce Wayne gets to reconcile with his team. Stephanie gets to feel worthless. Bruce Wayne gets to feel justified.

[scarlethood]

i know this isnt what people mean when they talk about the second Robin's death, but how unbearably cruel to make the murder of a child about the father who buried his son and a piece of himself with him. the tragedy does not lie in the grief of those left behind, but in every possible future that's been taken from the one who's gone. the grief that is left behind is love left behind. the child should be considered worth that love and that grief, to say the father should not have to suffer grief is to say the father should not suffer love. the child is worth every second of grief. the child did not choose to die, he did his best to be a hero and was betrayed. the father chose to bury every good, warm, soft feeling to become a better soldier abandoning the title of father, he chose that for and by himself. nothing is the child's fault, but the father's for abdicating his responsibilities.

[bruciemilf]

So I've been thinking more and more abt the fact that the fandom credits Bruce's incompetence in adulthood to being rich, and sure, it definitely plays a part, but I don't really get...Where it stems from specifically?

First of all, I don't think I've ever even seen a Mention of cleaning, cooking, gardening, driving etc staff; Alfred's our multi purposed, tired king, but he doesn't seem to have any colleagues to speak of?

Second of all; The Waynes truly don't seem like the " having people waiting on them hand and foot" brand of rich people? Like, wasn't their simplicity and relatively down to earth-ness the main reason why Gotham loved them so much??

So! Bruce's isolation and general lack of self-care knowledge can't be all blamed on his money, but the fact that he truly...Didn't have anyone to look at to learn?

Alfred did his best of course, but this is a heavily traumatised 8 year old who refused to look at anyone as family in fear of losing them too for the longest time.

I'm just crying at the thought of Bruce having no one to teach him how to pay bills, or make an appointment at the dentist, or go grocery shopping by himself, to order for himself at restaurants, or cook himself dinner, or keep his place tidy.

Those are all very mundane but precious and valuable activities that parents teach and share with their kids, and Bruce didn't fully get that. So what he did do was make sure his kids knew how to do it all.

Tim doesn't understand why Bruce wants them to try cooking every night. Jason doesn't get why he has to join Bruce, to watch him withdraw money or open an account at the bank

Damian doesn't get why they practice appointments with the vet. Cass doesn't necessarily think a 2 hour tutorial on how to power up the washing machine is crucial to her education.

" Because I don't want you to be like me. And when I'm gone, I want to make sure you can take care of yourself."

That may be the wrong thing to say because the thought of Bruce dying like a normal person makes them sob

[sxnshxnxxnddxxsxxs-fics]

so there’s a couple of times in untitled that i say that bruce is weird in regards to his relationship with duke.

and i stand by it, but i also wanna expand on it a little.

because i don’t think that bruce would be weird in a bad way i just think he would be weird about it because bruce is just weird.

there’s also layers to it because in part i don’t duke sees bruce as his parent the same way bruce sees himself as duke’s parent. that’s not to say duke doesn’t see bruce as a parental figure or as part of the family, there’s just a layer of separation that bruce (and the rest of the family don’t necessarily understand). i have a very specific relationship dynamic in mind when it comes to duke and bruce and the batfam as a general concept i just don’t know how to articulate well in english (i’ll give it a go if anyone is interested)

but very importantly there’s the fact that bruce is aware that he is a white parent to a black child and he is aware of things like the effects of transracial adoption and he can also acknowledge the power dynamics in their situation.

there’s also the fact that duke is older than most of the other kids were when they came into bruce’s care and the fact that duke isn’t solely reliant on bruce in the way someone like dick was. duke has a community there to support him that exists independently of bruce.

all that to say duke’s situation is distinctly different to the rest of bruce’s children and bruce is navigating it blind and bruce is quite emotionally incompetent anyway so he’s just a bit weird about working out how to parent his new charge.

also i do just headcanon that bruce kind of just stands in doorways observing his kids without ever revealing his presence because he just likes to see them at peace and in their element and that will probably change once they realise he’s there.

[distort-opia]

I love your metas! I was wondering... have you or anyone else tried listing all of Bruce's childhood traumas? Comics zero in on Crime Alley, but EVERY time I see a snippet from his childhood it's invariably a little-to-a-lot fucked up whether his parents are involved (loneliness, bedtime stories, his mom lovingly promising to haunt him) or not (falling into the cave, going to a boarding school run by a killer in Batman Gothic, Tommy Elliott in general, a childhood friend died of diphtheria in Batman Through the Looking Glass... he saw a LOT of death as a child, actually...)

Thank you! I unfortunately don't know of a post listing all of Bruce's childhood traumas. You've kind of already covered a lot of bases, Anon, but for the sake of completeness I'll go through all you've mentioned and the traumatic incidents I can recall too:

Bruce falls into a well full of bats and develops a phobia in response [notable post-Crisis flashback in Batman: The Man Who Falls]

At five years old, Bruce's favorite story to have Thomas read to him every night for a month is “The Veldt” by Ray Bradbury, which is largely about kids with such neglectful parents that they bond with an automated house and then leave their parents for dead [mentioned by Bruce(s) in Batman/Superman (2013) #2]

Bruce witnessed his father performing surgery on a dying man [flashback in Batman: The Long Halloween]

Thomas reads to Bruce “The Animals and the Pit” by Alexander Nikolaevich Afanasyev, a story containing cannibalism and brutal fights for survival [flashback in Batman (2016) #74]

Thomas had Bruce watch horror movies with him, with Martha having to comfort Bruce afterwards in a bit of an unorthodox way... by promising that if they died, his parents would haunt him [flashback in Detective Comics (2016) #1027 -- Ghost Story]

Bruce experienced neglect as a child, with his father's parenting style being potrayed in multiple stories as authoritarian, which led to Bruce idolizing him and craving his approval, but running to Martha for comfort when his father was too harsh [notable flashbacks in Batman: The Dark Knight II (2011) #12, but bits of this can be seen in Batman: The Long Halloween, Batman: Hush, Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #58, Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on a Serious Earth etc.]

Bruce had a friend called Celia Small for a while, whom he adored. He watched her die of diptheria while he recovered, blaming himself for it [mentioned in Batman: Through the Looking Glass]

Bruce was sent to a private school as a child, which he resented as being "sent away"; the school is described as hell, a place where children were beaten, humiliated and had to fight off the sexual advances of older teachers. Bruce gets spanked as physical punishment by the headmaster, who turns out to be a serial killer, because Bruce glimpses the severed head of his only friend Robert as it happens [flashbacks in Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #7 -- Gothic]

Bruce accidentally shoots a duck with a rifle his friend Mooley had brought with them, and the death of the animal becomes a traumatic memory associated with the death of his parents, because of the gun [Batman: Secrets #4]

Bruce's childhood friend, Tommy Elliot... um. I guess I can just list Tommy Elliot, but the most direct traumatic experience at the time must've been having to stop Thomas from killing another kid, after which Thomas was put in a psychiatric institution [flashback in Detective Comics (1937) #837]

Bruce's father hits him while angry about a stock investment, with Bruce declaring in childish rage to his mother afterwards that he wants him dead... on the same day that his parents got gunned down, because Bruce's survivor's guilt needed more ammunition [flashback in Batman (1940) #430]

And then there's the shooting of his parents at the tender age of 8 years old! So all of this is prior to that! Two dead friends, one who avoided him after the unfortunate duck incident, and one friend who had a violent breakdown and got taken away... And Bruce attempted suicide after his parents died too, as told in Batman (2016) #12.

[admiringtheskies]

okay, so The Hyperfixation Is Hyperfixating, clearly, and honestly im just gonna continue going with it bc THEM— *screams* ANYWAYS @frownyalfred uhhhhhh hope you enjoy this as well! without further ado, another idea inspired by the incomparable ✨borderline✨ that just would NOT leave me alone until i got it all down into actual real words:

at some point further in the timeline of borderline'verse, when they've finally got the whole situation mostly under control, the batfam (whenever they accompany bruce, or multiple kids go together by themselves so they're in batclan mode, to do jl/other crossover shit) sort of ends up just doing the whole Bat-Danger-Aura thing, like, Constantly; somewhat unintentionally, but also with not much effort really made to rein it in, bc they do think the reactions are hilarious lol. and like, the thing is, they were ALREADY doing it pre-bond, pretty much right from whenever dick, jason, or both made their first appearance w bruce outside of gotham and first established the existence of mini-bats for the outside world — i mean, that sense of leashed power, as well as the eerie synchronicity and ability to communicate in the tiniest of gestures, was really just a natural consequence of the crime-fighting codependency and the training bruce put them through, originally. (as you may be able to tell, i have an Extremely Normal Amount of Feelings about the concept of cryptid batfam <3). but WITH the bond?? i mean, the kids are all connected to each other, yes, but their primary connections are all to BRUCE, and once they've had time to adjust, and set + actually semi-consistently enforce some basic boundaries, they absolutely take pride in using that to it's fullest advantage (that they're capable of while not intentionally compromising anybody's autonomy, anyways).

and like… OP's already touched on this in earlier chapters briefly a few times, but i NEED a thorough exploration of the idea of bruce seeing this change in them, seeing them subconsciously incorporate even just these little subtle mannerisms, and feeling so fucking guilty about it and spiraling bc he's terrified that all of his self-destructive qualities [that he's painfully aware of in himself] will transfer over to the children, who somehow never seem to realize that how proud and grateful they make him when they demonstrate their DIFFERENCES from him in those regards. and he's just so scared that he'll somehow ruin the few parts of them he thinks he's miraculously managed to avoid 'tainting' with his mentorship/fatherhood until now… …and meanwhile the kids are about to start crying because dad no what the fuck,,, but also facepalming a little bit bc jesus CHRIST, B, did you never even stop to consider the fact that you're just… really fuckin smart and skilled and know how to do a frankly ungodly amount of Cool Shit that we all share an interest in, and we were excited to have the chance to copy more of that shit too?! just, even beyond the great mental image of the Danger Walk, what really got me about that scene was just... his two oldest boys, who are already so much like him, not hesitating for a SECOND to gleefully take the chance to match his behavior even MORE perfectly, and wanting to know where he learned something as (relatively, by their standards) simple as the Serious Business Walk, and wanting to share that memory because it's just fuckin cool, y'all! like, to be clear, i absolutely respect the fact that, at least by the time that they're entering adulthood/in the prime of their mental and physical youth, any of the batkids are pretty much on, or definitely rapidly approaching, the same level as bruce in general badassery — and they probably each have 1 or 2 specific skillsets in which they can and do surpass him. but at the same time, you CANNOT convince me that, at any given point in the established DC timeline, there exists a non-bruce batfam character who can really look at bruce (like his personality, his aforementioned ridiculous skillset, i mean everything about him) and not see at least ONE quality in him that they aspire to. maybe it's something they already have and just can't see in themselves, maybe it's more a projection of something one of their other siblings has and shares with bruce, maybe it's just some skill, some random combat move, that he doesn't need very often, and so when he does use it, it briefly reminds them that "holy shit, he's The Fucking Batman" — but there's always SOMETHING there, some reason that even when they're having trouble communicating or arguing or emotions are running high, they'll never truly lose that respect for him that compels these ridiculously independent, self-sufficient people to willingly follow him: to listen to him, to trust him, and to keep themselves ready to unite under his lead. because nobody can argue that they are a clan, whose purpose comes from being first united under the guidance and protection and love of the bat.

[fantastic-nonsense]

Which parallel do you think is more important: Dick being the same age as Bruce when their parents died, or the age gap between Bruce and Dick being the same as the age gap between Dick and Damian? I think with the few canon ages at different events that we're given (Bruce being 25 when he becomes Batman and getting Dick a year later, Damian being 14, Bruce being 8 when his parents died, etc.) both cannot currently be true.

Of the two of them, the first one. It's more important to draw parallels between Bruce and Dick to explain why Bruce took Dick in and how Bruce sees himself in Dick (as well as how Bruce's actions prevent Dick from becoming like him) than it is to draw parallels between Bruce and Dick to explain why Dick took care of Damian after Bruce "died."

Part of Bruce and Dick's whole thing is that Dick is the kind of man Bruce wishes he could be, but the only reason Dick is able to be that person is because Bruce saved him from ever becoming like himself. It's a powerful story of being able to save the child you were and dealing with your own trauma and grief by enabling someone else to find the closure you never could. Bruce and Dick both being 8/9 when their parents died emphasizes that connection point in a way that few other things ever will.

Meanwhile, I don't think the age gaps between Bruce and Dick and Dick and Damian need to be the same and honestly I don't think they should be. The only thing it really adds is some extra angst as Dick realizes that he's the same age as Bruce was when Bruce took him in and giving him a tiny "Damian's my responsibility, I'll do right by him like Bruce did with me" boost. Which frankly, he doesn't need! That realization and connection point already exists without that added coincidence.

[spite-and-waffles]

Someone explain to me why Jason feels more Bruce's son than any of the others. Especially considering Jason would have lived and thrived with any parent except Bruce.

Maybe because Bruce is only a father figure to Dick and Tim‚ who loved and preferred their own fathers. Damian's Dad is Dick (I will not be taking questions). Cass wanted Bruce to be her father so bad but he just wouldn't. Even the belated adoption was mere formality. But Jason? He probably did love Willis but he adored Bruce, and Bruce adored him back. I don't think he loved him more than Dick, who will always be his favourite because he was his first partner and child, and because of all the ways he isn't like Bruce. But Bruce and Jason were always father and son without any of the complexity between Bruce and the others.

And Jason is so like Bruce. Everyone says Tim is most like him because of the way their brains work, but it's Dick who actually has been moulded into Batman-lite. Damian is his mother's child; always craving connection and acceptance to anchor him within his inner tempest. He'd die in the kind of darkness Bruce enshrouds himself in. Cassandra has Bruce's drive and focus and inability to conceive of herself as person outside of the mission (although lbr they're all like that. Sigh) But her open compassion, unguarded empathy and playfulness characterizes her more than even Dick.

Jason, otoh, is a thing that will grab a sword by the blade and cut himself to the bone forcing it back. His light and darkness are one and the same. He's the one who can match Bruce's fear and fury and hubris that tries to bend the world into the shape of his choosing with his bare hands.

Idk why I hate Bruce and love Jason. They're both equally myopic and hypocritical and selfish‚ as unable to see past their own trauma, as lacking in self-awareness. Maybe because Jason's just a boy who needs someone on his side while Bruce has too many on his. Maybe because he was born and raised among the people he wants to protect, unlike Bruce, and has so much more excuse for being the way he is. Maybe because he never takes himself so seriously, and uses his sense of humour just like Dick and Steph do, just in an entertainingly assholish fashion.

But if any child could have been biologically Bruce's it would be Jason. Which probably lies at the heart of their eternal conflict. Neither of them will give, neither will blink first. Two men made to forever burn alive.

[frownyalfred]

*busts down your doors* HEY! Long ask for ya

okay so I was rereading your fic where EMS showed up because Dick couldn’t flip on the trampoline (rip) and it got me thinking about routine trauma.

So here’s the thing: I am not EMS. I know three people who are EMS, but my extent of EMS experience comes from one (1) ride along and lurking on EMS subreddits. Those guys are a hoot. Great memes. Anyways.

A comment stuck out to me: “You haven’t truly lived the job until you’re eating a gas station burrito next to a dead body”. I’ve seen a bunch like that. Nonchalance and dark humor because well, that’s their job. Gore is the norm. Sure, depending on the area, your usual calls might just be lift assists, but other areas are neck deep in gang violence and violent crime.

A pretty common post on that subreddit is also, sadly, “I just got a call that’s never bothered me before but all of a sudden I’m broken” or “I’ve never had a problem running this type of call before but all of a sudden it just hit me.” Delayed trauma is a bitch. Someone pointed out that if a civilian saw a fatal car accident with multiple corpses, they’d be in therapy and given support and it’d be a huge deal. With EMS, they’re just expected to deal with it. (EMS mental health is getting better- there are helplines and resources and first responder focused therapies- but it’s still a developing field)

ANYWAYS, now that I’ve given you a crash course on the EMS mental health crisis (someone should really write a feature on EMS in Gotham those fuckers would be crazy and I love them already), my point is, how would this apply to the bats? Seeing bodies is treated as very much the norm to them, but do you think it ever just… catches up? The impact of seeing corpses day after day? Do you think they have to fake being fine and tough during those times because well, “everybody else in the family is fine with it, I’m not going to be a liability/burden/weak/etc”

Do you think Bruce, the goddamn batman, who shouldn’t be ruffled by anything, ever just feels something crack inside when he looks at a little boy who could have grown up healthy and strong like his Jason, had (Bruce) someone been there for him? and then he can’t work cases with kids for a week?

This is such an excellent ask, thank you so much for gracing my inbox with it!

It's a very good question. I'm also on a lot of those subreddits (needed to do some research for that fic) and the discussion in those forums and on TikTok is like you described, a kind of practiced desensitization to all gore and suffering in order to survive in their job.

What I've seen from those discussions (and my EMT friend) is an almost sub-conscious trend where they allow themselves the "thing" that breaks them, and they push a lot of that trauma and emotion onto that thing. Like an EMT saying they don't do kids, or they don't do gunshots to the eye, etc. And they'll sob like a baby on those calls, while remaining stone-faced and level-headed through the triple homicide.

I'm just theorizing here, but I imagine the Batfamily uses similar coping skills -- pushing all that trauma and suffering into a box which cracks only under limited, defined circumstances. And they break or snap only under those conditions, because, subconsciously, they allowed themselves to.

So yes, Bruce might be 99% fine with most of the bodies he sees, but there might be a little boy who has a detail (like Jason's dark hair) that just slams into him out of nowhere.

PTSD and trauma literally change the structure of the brain. Individuals react differently to trauma after that, but there does appear to be a "desensitizing" effect with repeated trauma, as the body tries to compensate.

I agree that the Gotham EMTs must be some crazy motherfuckers. They probably deal with 6x the normal shit EMTs deal with in other cities. They probably take on a lot more trauma and burn out quicker than other EMTs, too.

Anyone else have thoughts on this? I admit I don't cover PTSD explicitly in a lot of my fics.

[psalmsofpsychosis]

So long story short but not really, in The Batman (2022) Riddler talks to Brucebro, tells him how they carried all their plans together, that he couldn't have done it without Batman, and he portrays them as equals, connected in idealogy (need for foundational societal change) and in execution (swift, maticulous, subtle and strategic approach), both of them orphans, both intellectuals, both being free and true with their masks. He draws the connections and correlations between them, and here is the thing; it's incredibly easy to fall into projection once you establish enough similarity and points of sameness between yourself and another person. Riddler projects his own affinity on Batman, imagining Batman feels the same sense of resolute alignment and comradeship with him that he does with Batman. Bruce does see the way he quite predictably played into Riddler's schemes and became an unwilling part of his narrative, and he doesn't like it one bit. He immediately tries to separate himself and defy the sense of relatedness he feels with the Riddler; he can't accept that he feels horrible for wearing a mask, that he feels ashamed of letting the persona of Batman free him from his limitations and take his shame and guilt away— so he attacks Riddler with his very own set of surprising projections. Riddler paints for him how alike they are and Batman tells him, "you're out of your goddamn mind. it's all in your head, you're sick, you're twisted. You think you'll be remembered? you're a pathetic psychopath, begging for attention. You're gonna die alone in Arkham. A nobody."

and this— is really everything Bruce feels about himself. Which is to say, auchie. :( prescribing a sleep serotonin seaside vacation serum straight to artery for Bruceboy.

[batboopp]

one of the most surprising part of finally joining the batman fandom was reading older comics and finding out that this guy wasn’t an abusive monster (at least in most comic runs) but was just some obviously mentally ill suicidal guy who’s continuously indulged and even manipulated (sometimes) by his closest friends and remaining family to jump off of buildings and sob to the ptsd induced hallucinations of his dead parents and kids he glimpses in the mirror

this is an alfred hatepost lowkey. like alfreds whole reasoning was ‘well I just wasn’t ready to be a father (i abandoned one kid already it really wouldn’t be difficult to do it again) and bruce was sooo hard to deal with ���� (i don’t even parent him in any meaningful way)’

Alfred is literally like “hmm schizophrenic 14 year old child. lets let him go talk and train with assassins and murderer detectives to figure out his ‘true self’ since he very obviously doesn’t want the nonexistent encouragement and help I’ve totally been giving. I’ll even pack his suitcases because THAT couldn’t send any wrong ideas to the kid I repeatedly tell to grow up and learn about life.” and he expects him to come back to Alfred’s expectation of ‘normal’???

don’t even get me started with his whole ‘indulging the continuous cycle of robins’ thing. Bruce is like “wow let’s get this kiddo to a foster home with emotionally stable people who can properly raise him” while Alfred is already picking out the fabrics to sew the robin costumes. like worstie you started the cycle of emotional unavailability and crappy parenting!!!!! you (and a lot of people in the fandom included) can’t keep blaming that on just Bruce forever!!!

[a-bad-case-of-the-stephs]

Okay!

After nearly a full decade of our time of Stephanie Brown being told to go home and give up being Spoiler, Batman takes her on as a student and sanctions her, with no preamble or warning.

That’s weird, let’s talk about it.

Batmans strange choices in how he treats Stephanie Brown can only be understood by analyzing his character.

Let's place Batman in context of what is going on directly before his decision to bring in Stephanie Brown as part of the team. The last major event preceding Stephanie Brown being sanctioned is Officer Down, which by the time it concludes Batman has lost two of his oldest allies: Jim Gordon has retired and Alfred has resigned.

In the wake of Officer Down, I’d like to track two key conflicting characteristics of Batman, how they are exacerbated, and how they influence how Stephanie is treated.

1. A Longing for Companionship

Batman's desire for the company of others is increased post-Officer Down, as he deals with suddenly being isolated from most of his core group.

Other characters point this out:

Batman #590 (1940)

Additionally, for the first time in a long while, Bruce Wayne is entirely alone in the manor.

Gotham Knights #20 (2000)

So, why doesn’t Batman just do the normal, healthy thing and reach out to the loved ones he still has? I personally believe it’s because of how embarrassed he is after getting epically owned by Alfred, but the more general answer is: he’s the Batman.

Out of paranoia his feelings will be used against him, or out of fears those close to him will be harmed if he directly expresses affection for them, or out of just being too damn cool for “emotions”, any way you slice it, Batman is:

2. Deeply uncomfortable with appearing emotionally vulnerable

We can see this with one of Bruce’s primary response to immediate grief: denial and silence

A simple example of this is how he acts after Jason Todd is killed. Bruce completely refuses to acknowledge his existence, and remains utterly silent when confronted.

Batman #437 / #440 (1940)

Another easy example of this is how he inexplicably approaches Nightwing dressed as Matches Malone in order to express that he isn’t trying to step on his toes:

Nightwing #14 (1996)

While it varies over time how emotionally closed off Bruce is, I believe one of the biggest triggers for an increase in this emotional cut off is when he is made to feel helpless.

During Cataclysm, he is helpless to stop the earthquake or meaningfully protect Gotham, there’s no enemy to fight, it’s just pure random crappy luck. He responds to this feeling of circumstances being out of his immediate control by cutting off almost all of his allies and sending them out of Gotham.

After he learns about how Zatanna and some other JLers wiped his memory and betrayed his trust, his reaction is to create an artificial intelligence to spy on the Justice League.

When Batman is put in situations which makes him feel physically or emotionally vulnerable, when he’s subject to circumstances out of his control, Batmans response has been historically to double down and isolate himself and cover up any potential weaknesses by convincing himself he’s better off alone and paranoid.

Eventually, after some time of this, he has a big moment where he decides to let people in, but his knee jerk reaction is always to pull away first.

This aversion to vulnerability is in play during and post-Officer Down, where Bruce is confronted by Jim’s mortality and retirement as well as Alfred’s resignation, all “enemies” he can’t just punch away.

Nightwing #53 (1996) / Gotham Knights #13 (2000)

In the wake of Officer Down, these conflicting traits are prominently portrayed.

In particular, Gotham Knights #18 demonstrates how these ideas clash.

Batmans loneliness is explored heavily: he starts the comic off talking to a bat, repeatably calls Oracle who is trying to sleep, and wanders through the completely empty manor.

His loneliness is conveyed through how he is framed: a shadow in a batsuit, wandering though desaturated and darkened hallways and rooms, completely silently, like a ghost.

Finally, the silence ends. Bruce calls Aquaman, asking for help excavating his giant penny. They have an awkward conversation, until Aquaman eventually calls him on his BS, pretty much directly stating that the penny was a total excuse, and that Bruce just wanted company, that he only called because he was lonely.

Gotham Knights #18 (2000)

When confronted with his loneliness, we see his desire for companionship come into play. He tries to talk to the bat, to Oracle, and then Arthur.

We also see it mitigated by the second impulse, his aversion to vulnerability. He can't tell Oracle that he just wants to talk, he has to frame the interaction through a case that he himself admits he no longer needs her help with.

Likewise, he can't just tell Aquaman that he wants to hang out, he has to make up a lie about needing help moving his giant penny.

His desire for companionship drives him to reach out, while his aversion to emotional vulnerability forces him to obscure this desire for human connection.

So, thats fine and all, but what does any of this have to do with Stephanie Brown?

As I mentioned earlier, Officer Down is the event that occurs just before Batman brings Steph onto the team. I argue that this dynamic of yearning for companionship vs. resistance to emotional vulnerability influences heavily his decision to "sanction" her as Spoiler.

Stephanie as a balm for Batmans loneliness.

This is immediately clear if you compare how much he's talking in Gotham Knights #18 to how he chatters away at Stephanie. He directly references Tim and Alfred's absence. But unlike Gotham Knights #18 the absence is not a bad thing per se, its framed against Stephanie's presence, how he allows her to stay.

Green Arrow #5 (2001)

Stephanie's role in assuaging his loneliness is evident in other places as well, for instance, in the Gotham Knights Last Laugh tie in. Stephanie realizes she forgot to turn her comm of, and had been "blabbing in [his] ear all night", Batman reassures her that he isn't upset. Just the opposite in fact, he tells her to not turn it off, saying he "doesn't mind the company" and placing a hand awkwardly on her shoulder. He clearly appreciated the relief from his loneliness her "blabbing" had provided.

Gotham Knights #22 (2000)

So Batman's embarrassing loneliness might have had some role to play in him taking her on as a student and "sanctioning" her. But what about that second impulse? How does it come into play?

2. How Stephanie as an outsider allows for emotional vulnerability

Originally, Batman takes Stephanie on because he needed her to help him find Tim at Brentwood, as he is unable to go himself. The reasons he "can't" go himself only become clear when Tim confronts Bruce, calling him out for being afraid of running into Alfred.

Robin #87 (1993)

This scene illustrates how Stephanie satisfies the second impulse, her outsider status. Stephanie is different from the rest of the team.

Tim has access to the context and information which allows him to expose Batman's emotionally vulnerability. Tim can call out Batman out for his pettiness and cowardice in how he hides from Alfred.

But Stephanie? Stephanie doesn't know who Alfred is, or how embarrassing it is for Batman to be avoiding him after Alfred yelled at him and called him a baby. She doesn't have the context that Tim and the rest of the team have.

So what does this mean? It means that Batman can tell her shit that is not true, like that he calls his car "The Car" instead of the Batmobile. And, more importantly, it means that he can express emotional vulnerability without any of the potential consequence. She has no context, and she has no one to tell.

Alfred is beefing with her over Bruce's choice to tell her Tim's identity, so that potential friendship is over before it could begin. And she gets (seemingly) brushed off by Batgirl.

Robin #88 (1993)

She doesn't even have Tim, who Stephanies believes is mad at her.

Robin #94 (1993)

I cannot emphasize this enough: she has nobody to tell. And Batman absolutely knows this.

He is emotionally vulnerable with her, expressing concern for the future and uncertainty:

Robin #92 (1993)

This moment is weird. It stands out. Stephanie seems aware of the strangeness of this moment, she reflects on it internally.

This moment parallels something in another comic. His fears and uncertainties about bringing other people into his "war"? We see a similar dialogue in the beginning of Gotham Knights.

Gotham Knights #1 (2000)

These are his uncertainties and fears that he can normally only express through creating a case file where he writes in the third person, assessing himself as Batman as if he is a completely different person. But theres no subterfuge here. He just straight up tells Stephanie Brown, utterly unprompted.

And this isn't the last time it's mentioned. At least half a year later, at the very start of War Games, the strange and scary vulnerability of this moment is still etched in Stephanies mind.

Batman: The 12 Cent Adventure (2004)

And while Batman gets to dump his insecurities on Stephanie, it's not exactly reciprocal. Stephanie expresses fear that Batman will drop her if she goes to him for help after her dad threatens to kill her. She has no feeling of security in her place on the team if she's afraid of this.

Robin #94 (1993)

And she's not even wrong about Batman's willingness to fire her at the drop of a hat, it just occurs later.

And when it occurs is important. The events of Bruce Wayne: Murderer lead to Alfred coming back into the manor and Bruce's employ. It ends with a big reconcilltion between the primary team, where Bruce explains he's been off since Officer Down.

Batman #605 (1940)

Alfred is back, no questions asked. The "real" team gets an apology and an explanation. And in other words, Batman is no longer as alone as he was before.

Everyone was locked out of the cave during Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive, but Stephanie is the only one who is not let back in once it concludes. She doesn't get an explanation, and Batman did not seem to have a plan to tell her she's been fired. She had to track him down and confront him to find out he'd given up on her.

Gotham Knights #37 (2000)

We can see how his isolation contributes to how she is treated by who is told when she is fired/sanctioned. When he brings her on the team, no one knows ahead of time. We don't see him tell anyone at all. In contrast, once his primary support system is firmly reestablished post Bruce Wayne: Murderer, Bruce separately informs Tim, Cassandra, and Alfred that Stephanie was fired. He's able to do this because his web has been repaired.

Stephanie Brown essentially fulfills the same role as the bat that Bruce talks to in Gotham Knights #18.

A new presence, unencumbered with the point of view the rest of the team has, unknowing of Bruce's history of fucking up. A sounding board, a stand in for Bruce's normal company.

Stephanie's presence perfectly satiates the contrasting impulses Batman deals with when it comes to how he interacts with other characters. Through her, Bruce can have companionship without being afraid of the danger of emotional vulnerability. She doesn't have the context, she doesn't know Bruce Wayne. She only knows Batman, and she seems pretty starstruck about finally being let on his team.

[scarlethood]

we should really talk about how Batman's no kill rule is part of his suicidal tendencies. when his parents were killed he vowed to be strong enough to prevent that from happening again and trained to be that strong. but he also wanted to go with them and ran off on dangerous adventures begging death to take him too. so, when Batman says 'Batman does not kill' that's the vow the comes from never wanting another person to experience his grief, but when Batman says 'even if it kills me I won't kill to stop my death' that's the vow that comes from him wanting his own grief to be over.

[tate-lin]

Jason Todd is my favourite character in all of DC but:

If someone doesn't want to kill, you can't ask, tell, or expect them to kill for you

Or, you can, but you'd be a complete asshole. The only time those expectations are valid is when a person signed up for a job where killing is expected (e.g. the military).

But as we all know, Batman is not the military nor the police. He only has one rule—or only one rule he truly cares about—and that's to not kill.

And frankly, I don't care what his reasons are for that; the bottom line is that he doesn't want to kill and we should respect it. Because at the end of the day, when you take a life, you're the one who's fully responsible for it. You're the one who has to live with it. And because of that, nobody should force you to do it.

Look, like I said, Jason Todd is my favourite character too. But that doesn't mean I don't find it disturbing or unfair when he expects Bruce, and only Bruce, to kill the Joker for him.

Do I find it understandable and human? Of course! Jason died horribly and gruesomely to a madman who'd do the same to anyone else so long as he finds it funny enough. It's only natural for him to want and expect someone—especially his father, the one he loved the most and the one he'd been searching through the thin crack of the door for even as the countdown struck zero—to put an end to the clown permanently, but. Does that mean he should? Absolutely not, and I think it's straight-up awful that so many people in this fandom encourage this take.

And the kicker is, if Catherine was still alive, if Catherine was the sort to become a vigilante and this happened to the both of them, do you think Jason would have the same expectations for her? I bet not. Not because he's sexist, but because Bruce is Batman and we take Batman for granted.

Yeah, you heard me. We take him for granted. We expect too much out of him.

This has been a slow-coming realisation, but it comes after a particularly harrowing conversation with my sister during which she told me that I was taking her for granted and I surprised myself by agreeing with her. I won't go into the nitty gritty details but what I took away from the conversation was that just because someone can do something, and you yourself would do that something for them, that does not mean you should automatically expect them to do the same for you—especially if it goes against their character and what they stand for.

This goes the same for Bruce. Just because he's capable of murder and is justified in doing it, that does not mean that he should do it if he doesn't want to. And just because Jason would do it for him if the reverse happened, that still does not mean he should do it if he doesn't want to (which Bruce would have never asked for anyway because that's just not part of his character). No matter their similarities, Jason and Bruce are two completely different people and they can't be expected to do and choose the same things.

Batman, of course, chooses to take responsibility for many, many things, most of which are completely optional. He's a billionaire, he doesn't have to help his city by spending his nights saving people, facing the worst the city has to offer, and risk his life and sanity on the daily. He's the CEO of one of the most wealthy companies in the world, he doesn't have to uplift his city by donating to orphanages, hospitals, and charities, creating programmes to help the youth, the poor, the disabled, ex-convicts, and other minorities, as well as funnel any struggling person he encounters to his company so that they can be assured of a job. He was a single and free man, he didn't have to agree to care for several angry, reckless, and bitter kids with death in their hearts.

All of the shit he does is completely optional! Yet, the one thing he explicitly chooses not to do, the one thing he absolutely refuses to take responsibility for and takes great pains to avoid, is killing.

And I get it, this is murder we're talking about here. You can't just expect people to be just okay with doing that, even if that person is a demented dude in a bat costume.

Actually, why are we expecting so much out of such a person? Cause Batman can do anything? Cause Jason is his son and Gotham is his city? Cause if given half a chance, we wouldn't let Jason down? Cause if something happened to us, we hope that we mattered enough to someone for them to avenge us, no matter if doing so would completely destroy them? Tear them apart from the inside-out? No matter that we're already dead and they'd have to live the rest of their lives like that?

Just something to think about.

At any rate, I think it's wrong to look at someone and expect them to kill for you. If Gotham wants Joker gone, they're just gonna have to do it themselves cause expecting a volunteer to do this extra shit they never asked for and explicitly does not want to do is more than just appalling.

It's cruel.

[pinepickled]

The day comic bros understand that family and familial love is the entire point of Batman is not the day I will know peace but it is the day I will begin to heal

Like oh there's this little rich kid who's beloved by his parents, who aren't perfect but are there for him. And then they die, some freak event that no one could predict. Family ripped away from a young and innocent kid. He trains, he trains hard through his trauma and his pain at losing his family, searching and grasping for any reason at all to keep going,

And he decides to harness his greatest fear as a child before The Incident to make sure that what happens to him happens to no kid again.

He becomes the shadows but he is impossibly warm. He can deck a hardened criminal with enough power to put them out of commission for good, but he will sit and comfort a crying child who doesn't understand the world of violence around them. He'll walk prostitutes on the street home so they feel safe. He'll keep toys and candy in his tool belt alongside his weapons to give to scared kids. He'll put his money where his mouth is, even while the world perceives him as foolish and carefree.

And he'll even take in a little boy who, despite Batman's best wishes, goes through what he did.

And he'll learn to love that kid and he'll give that kid everything he can, all the love and care and understanding and acceptance that he was robbed of at the same age. They'll go out together, a man and something that could be his son, helping those who can't help themselves.

Batman will take his greatest trauma in life and he'll heal it, he'll start anew, with friends and family that he achieves on his own. With a son just like he once was.

Batman is not a cold blooded killer, he is not unaffectionate and cruel. He does not hate the Robins. Being kind, warm, strong, and caring to those under his wing is what batman is about