#Benjamin Werner | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

the-conversation-pod · 1 year ago

Text

Summer 2023 Ep 2 - The Eighth Sense

AND WE'RE BACK!

It seems like every season we're going to have a single show dominate the conversation and the zeitgeist so much that we have to dedicate an entire episode to it! This season it was the Korean-German team-up about a boy so sprung that he joined a surfing club even though he couldn't swim. Strap in for a long discussion!

Nini and Ben dive deep into The Eighth Sense to discuss the international nature of BL, the way film history plays into our stories, the role of forgiveness in our lives, and the role of community in queer development.

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Listen on Google Podcasts

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond to chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Welcome 1:04 - The Eighth Sense 18:00 - The Relationship Between the Seniors and Juniors 27:45 - The Hedwig Incident 36:32 - Ae Ri 42:50 - Ji Hyun and Jae Won 50:38 - Joon Pyo and Boss Lady 56:28 - Let's Talk About the Kissing (and Episode 6) 1:06:21 - The Party Scene and Forgiveness 1:17:14 - On a Possible Second Season 1:24:10 - Checking in Two Months Later

The Conversation: Now With Transcripts!

We received an accessibility request to include transcripts for the podcast. We are working with @ginnymoonbeam on providing the transcripts and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

1:04 - The Eighth Sense

Ben

Welcome to The Eighth Sense episode! Nini and I had so much to say about this that we decided to give it its own episode, separate from our overall consternation from whatever is going on in the land of K-BL, because this felt distinct. This was a piece of work from a German and a Korean filmmaking team, and it created unique results. So we're going to speak to you all for the next hour and a half? [laughs] about it, and then we'll come back at the end with some reactions to the show and how we're feeling about it a few months later.

Nini

Let's go.

Nini

We are here today to talk about The Eighth Sense, and only The Eighth Sense. Benjamin. What is The Eighth Sense about?

Ben

See I had her a little bit annoyed before we started talking. She gives my full name because she's still mad at me for being obnoxious. The Eighth Sense —

Nini

[laughs]

Ben

The Eighth Sense is an age gap college romance between a new freshman from the Korean countryside and a very wealthy Korean man, who is the heir of his family, who's recently back from military service and trying to finish school. They kind of meet by happenstance at the freshman's job and instantly have a connection between them which they both find themselves drawn to and pulling on.

And over the course of the show the freshman, Ji Hyun, ends up joining the surfing club to hang out with Jae Won, the senior, and a romance blossoms between them… but we hit a lot of very familiar western queer storytelling drama beats. It blends fairly well with the Korean storytelling beats, as these two eventually choose each other as they're trying to move forward with their lives. Much drama ensues because of the older boy’s deep mental health issues. It's a really simple plot. It's just incredibly well executed.

Nini

Well, let's talk a little bit about that execution. So this is a… it's a Korean production but it's co-directed by a Korean director, Baek Inu, and a German director, Werner du Plessis. And I think that that interplay between the two filmmaking styles, between some of the hallmarks of Korean filmmaking and then some of the hallmarks of like classic German bildungsroman… They interplay really interestingly I think, in terms of the way that it's executed. A lot of people are saying that The Eighth Sense made them think of Skam? I have not watched Skam so I can't really speak to that, but in terms of certain aspects of the techniques of the filmmaking that I've seen, in terms of lighting and color and all of those things, I could see the comparisons that they're making.

But I feel like this show… it's something all its own? We've talked on this show about how K-BL was starting to get a little repetitive and feel like it wasn't, you know, using its time well and all those other things. And I think that those are criticisms that you can't level at The Eighth Sense. It does use its time well. I feel like it is well thought through, I feel like it uses its budget well, I feel like it… really engages me, like I'm not going to forget these characters. I'm not going to forget Ji Hyun, Eun Ji, Tae Hyung, Jae Won, Joon Pyo, Yoon Won, [laughs] I'm not going to forget these characters. You know what I mean? These characters have sort of touched something inside of me, particularly Jae Won.

I feel like it came along at just the right time for me to not write off K-BL. [laughs]

Ben

I mean, is it really K-BL, though?

Nini

Well, that's the question isn't it? Because a lot of people are like, ‘oh this isn't, this isn’t BL.’ I think it's very firmly BL, but I don't know how much it feels like K-BL.

Ben

It is not relying on… the tropes or beats of traditional yaoi, as evolved by Thailand's fiddling with the formula, and what's recently been happening in Korea over the last three years-ish. When you called it like a German coming of age thing, I can feel some of those influences here. In terms of the pacing, and the knowing.

So one of the things that BL is not very good at doing that I don't always enjoy is… BL doesn't know how to make characters always gay. Like their queerness activates when it's relevant, because they're thinking about it now. It isn't… built really into the way the character is functioning. But when you're writing queer cinema, a queer character is always queer. It is always complicating their life in some way, and that feels present here with Ji Hyun and Jae Won. Particularly when it comes to the ways that two of them engage with each other.

Ji Hyun gets clocked constantly by everyone, because he's obvious to them. Jae Won and he bump into each other at the restaurant and recognize each other, flirt outside of the restaurant. Ae Ri recognizes these things in him very quickly and she starts covering for him; Eun Ji sees this in him right away, and beefs with him immediately over Jae Won. Yoon Won I think picks up on it right away, which is why she's always calling him cutie. And I think the boss picks up on it too, which is why she's kind of protective of him.

This works for me because he's so clearly different, and I like how he clearly had these big dreams about ‘I'm going to move to the city and I'm going to live my best gay life.’ Then he moved to the city and got scared, because it's such a big place, all these strangers, and it's confusing because he's not used to dealing with urban systems… And so like, he immediately retreated a little bit. He just picked up a job, so he would only have to deal with one person, because it's like a one woman operation and like the freshman temp worker she's relying on? [laughs] And I think that's one of the big things that separates it for me with most of the BL we've experienced, like Ji Hyun always feels gay for me, in the way that Ji Hyun is very… protective of himself but very honest in general. Like Ji Hyun doesn't offer himself up easily to other people, but he's consistently honest and forthright with them. And like, after his big ol’ incident — where he almost dies, and I’m calling it ‘the incident’ [laughs] — he turns really sassy, but he's still being honest, he's just not tempering that. And also he's a little bit pissy, because he has a right to be.

So like that's the biggest, I think, line between like, BL per se, and what we might call queer cinema, when I'm watching them. Like their queerness is not active only when they're flirting, like other BL characters often feel for me.

Nini

Hmmm. That's something to ponder… It is clear that Ji Hyun does get clocked pretty regularly. You know I always have a soft spot for the ones who can't hide, and… so, I can get like why the boss is protective of him, why Joon Pyo is protective of him — like, even though Joon Pyo doesn't really know? He knows something, but he doesn't really know that Ji Hyun is queer, and it's this really funny scene when he finds out in the end, and he's just really upset that, you know, Ji Hyun didn’t tell him that he had a boyfriend.

Ji Hyun feels recognizably queer, in some intangible way? Like I think about my gay friends and my gay family, and… that thing that you said about a person who is gay being gay all the time and not just when they're flirting with somebody? [laughs] That really resonated [both laugh] Thaaaat really resonated, and I think is also a little bit of shots fired for some of BL.

Ben

I don't know that I want to fire shots at the other dramas in this regard, because… it's not fair. Because some of these things are intangible, you can't really always do them really well or correctly. It's not like I have obvious guidance, like ‘hey, here are the five tips to make your character seem authentically queer when you're writing your little stories!’ [both laugh] And like, that's not fair.

What I can do as a amateur critic, is point out that this character reads queer to me: from the little gay rainbow lamp he has, to the way he had big dreams for the city then feels a little bit disappointed about it, to the way he sees a really hot boy and immediately decides to do — to join a dangerous club just to get some dick. Like that's the kind of dumb shit that baby gays do! Like can you swim? No. So you joined the surfing club? Was — was the dick even that good? Yeahhh. All right, well, shit! [both laugh]

Nini

The man said that, before he nearly died, he was the happiest he had ever been in his life. He literally said that. [laughs]

Ben

This poor boy's whole brain got rearranged by some good dick! God damn.

Nini

Our other protagonist is Jae Won. Jae Won is a poor little rich boy, he's a tragic figure with a tragic past.

Ben

He's a sad little meow meow.

Nini

He really is the saddest little meow meow. It’s up in the air whether he's closeted or not. I don't feel like he is? But I also feel like he doesn't advertise. Because it doesn't feel like any of his angst about Ji Hyun is about the idea of him dating a guy. It doesn't feel that way.

Ben

Jae Won feels therapized. He… definitely is aware of his queerness, and seems mostly inconvenienced by it. His father is described as aggressive, and there's all of these pressures on him to be a certain kind of man, and a certain kind of son. Like they get mad about how emotional he is, they get mad that he's out drinking with his friends… so he's definitely been forced to be closeted about it? So I think he is definitely aware of it, and the reason why I think he's aware of it is, Ji Hyun calls him out on it in the last episode, when he's like, ‘You had a lighter in your pocket, the first night you met me.’

Nini

It's not that I feel like he doesn't know himself, like he knows himself, I think that much is clearly obvious in the story, he knows himself. The question is whether the people around him know. I feel like Eun Ji definitely knows, that's why she's so im— one of the reasons she's so immediately hostile to Ji Hyun, because she knows.

Ben

She knows, but I don't think he's told her. He just feels really modern about it, like, yes he's gay, if you ask him directly he'd probably just shrug and be like yeah, sure, whatever, but people aren't going to ask him that. They don't want to cross that line, because they want to use him, and trying to embarrass him about that is just gonna get you iced out of his life. Again, like we know that the surfing dudes hadn't really considered it, because they're like no, Jae Won's not that way. That's also like the men, though. Like every single girl in the story clocked every single gay boy the whole time. The boss, Eun Ji, Ae Ri, Yoon Won, all clocked Jae Won and Ji Hyun. And Jae Won didn't even know about it, because Yoon Won was like ‘you better do right by that boy,’ he's like ‘what are you talking about?’ and she was like ‘girl!’ and he was like ‘all right, shit.’ [laughs]

Nini

Jae Won is not closeted but he's not out either. Let's put it that way.

Ben

I think he was closeted by default, but he had already worked through the, ‘if I really connect with someone, I will step out for them.’ And you can feel that, with the way he tries to casually say to the boss, ‘yeah I have feelings about my boyfriend,’ and the way he's forthright about it with Ji Hyun. Because I feel like he had emotionally prepared for the moment? And once he decided to commit to it, all of that work came out right away.

Nini

Well, even before he says it to the boss or to Ji Hyun, he says it to the guy at the, at the rest stop, when they're heading off to that fateful trip. It's not even a big deal for him to say that. And that's why I was wondering like, well is he closeted or is, has just nobody just ever asked him about it? And I think I'm going to land on your side of things here with, probably nobody ever asked him about it, and he didn't feel the need to announce it.

Ben

Right, and I think that's where — that's, that's mostly how he reads to me.

Nini

Do you think that Tae Hyung knew?

Ben

Yes, because he kisses him all the time. But, he knows it in the way that stupid-ass straight boys know. Where they know, and they want the attention, and they kind of want it, but they would have to be gay and they can't actually do that. Which is why he gets so… bothered about Jae Won caring about other stuff. It's the same thing we see all the time, he gets mad that he's not being paid attention to, or that Jae Won doesn't care about the things he wants him to care about. Or isn't being as miserable as they want him to be.

Nini

You know what I think is actually a subtle hint? In the first few episodes of the show, the way that Tae Hyung keeps pushing Jae Won and Eun Ji together, keeps pushing them towards each other, keeps bringing Eun Ji into the spaces. Now that I'm thinking about it, at the beginning I just never quite figured out why it mattered so much to him? But now, it makes like a strange kind of sense, if he knew or if he at least suspected… why he would keep shoving Eun Ji at him.

Ben

Right, because if she — he chooses Eun Ji, it's at least, like, the woman that he was okay with, I guess. And like it gives him some sort of weird control or investment in whatever they have going on. I feel like at some level Tae Hyung knows. But again like that's part of why this show feels more queer for me than some other stuff, because we're having this really complex conversation about who knows, doesn't know, at what level do they know, what does their knowing imply about the way they perceive Jae Won — like that's the world real queer people exist in. Where it isn't just who knows, it's what do they do with the knowledge.

Nini

I'm really recasting, like, my initial reactions of the whole Tae Hyung, Jae Won thing.

Ben

I mean if you, I don't know if you remember, I hated that motherfucker from the very first time we saw him! [both laugh]

Nini

Ben could not stand his ass from jump.

Ben

Like, the very first episode I was like, ‘oh I hate this boy so much Nini!’ [laughs] and she was like ‘damn bro, they just had like one fight!’ and I'm like, ‘oh no, it was not just one fight.’

18:00 - The Relationships Between the Seniors and Juniors

Nini

Speaking of fights between Jae Won and Tae Hyung, perfect segue.

Ben

Let's talk about him tagging that ass though.

Nini

We're kinda jumping around here, and one of the reasons that we're jumping around is I feel like, talking about The Eighth Sense, like it doesn't really, it's not really useful to talk about it in some kind of chronology, or in terms of the plot. The plot's there and the plot is good…

Ben

The plot is… a country boy snags a chaebol. It's very good.

Nini

Yeah, the plot is very simple, I feel like The Eighth Sense, the, the real meat of the discussion is in the relationships — in all the different interactions that these characters have bouncing off of each other, in some of the ways that they interact with society? I feel like that's more of where the meat of talking about the story comes from. There's going to be a lot of jumping around in this discussion I think because of that.

Ben

We’ll talk about Tae Hyung, but more specifically we'll talk about how strong the characterization is for all of these characters. Like the biggest thing that's interesting about this show is, all the seniors are miserable horrible people.

Nini

Terrible. [laughs]

Ben

All of the freshmen are not — but some of them could be. I think that's Bit Na's role in the story. Yoon Won, Eun Ji, and Jae Won are all seniors who probably should have graduated already, but because of the funding model of school and how you need to get a job, they're all stuck and they hate it. They're having the millennial problem of, we were told that if we were really good at school and we went to college and checked all the boxes, we would get decent jobs, marry wives, live in the suburbs, have a van, and have two point three kids. And uh… we didn't! And we've lived through crisis after crisis for… literally 22 years, and it sucks!

And so like I get why Yoon Won, Eun Ji, Jae Won, and Tae Hyung are so frustrated and so pissed about all of it. And like they can't even be happy about any of it, like Tae Hyung wasn't drafted, but it's not like it worked out for him, it's not like he got to do anything useful with school, and like get ahead and go work somewhere, which is why like he's glomping back on to Jae Won. Because he's his last hope, that maybe somehow Jae Won getting control of his dad's company will get him a useful job, and maybe he won't be such a piece of shit. But he's such a selfish prick that he can't do anything with it.

Eun Ji is clearly a status chaser, and she really wants to be the wife of a chaebol. And that's why she's trying to lock Jae Won down.

Yoon Won is the only person that Jae Won ends up having a real connection with, because she's frustrated, but she's trying to do something positive, like ‘hey I'm gonna be stuck in school for a while but I'm [gonna] try and keep the surfing club afloat while I'm here. I hope you can get a chance to relax and I'm really glad that you came back and helped us out because — you’re really good at it, and I'm really glad that you're here.’ Like, she's the only person who's thankful for Jae Won's presence because he offered it. And she asks for literally nothing else beyond him except, ‘so hey you feel like getting a pizza and a beer with me? I really want to go to this place but the guy only speaks English even though he lives in fucking Korea.’

Nini

[laughs] That was bizarre.

Ben

And he's gonna be such a dick about it! That felt like a dig at foreigners moving to Korea.

[both laugh]

Nini

I completely agree that Yoon Won feels like the only person who is interested in Jae Won and not in what Jae Won can do for them, in terms of the seniors. And that's why their… thing works. And Jae Won says it when they're drinking in that foreigner's bar. He's like, ‘you know, when we started school I really didn't like you. But now you're kind of the only person who—’ [laughs] Basically he tells her that she's the only person he doesn't hate, so.

Ben

Right? And he call — she calls him out, like ‘I know you hated me, you piece of shit. But it's fine. We're cool now.’ [laughs] But again like, in terms of like, early episodes… she's the only person in the series [who] respects what he wants. She's like ‘Okay, I'll take the new kid because he clearly can't swim. You take the two girls, because you gay, you ain't gonna do nothing with them girls. Teach them girls how to swim right.’ He's like ‘No. I wanna go with the boy.’ She's like ‘Girl. Are you sure?’ and he's like ‘Nah nah nah, I really wanna go hang out with this boy.’ ‘Allll right.’ [laughs]

But again, everyone else disrespects him — ignores his stated desires, constantly. Yoon Won is the only person in the show who, when he says he wants something, she lets him have it. And then she's like ‘Hey the cute boy drew a picture of you… wanna see it?’

[both laugh]

Nini

She gives him so much shit in like her own way, I love it. You know I’m all about besties who give you shit, you know that's my favorite, [laughs] that's my favorite trope. Besties givin’ you shit.

But yeah, so you've got all the seniors who are stuck and miserable because, I mean, other than Jae Won — if they all came in at the same time, other than Jae Won because of his military service — they should have all graduated already. And the fact that they haven't, and they're all there just kind of, you know, sitting there miserable staring at each other, is a big commentary on everything.

So compare them to all the freshmen. Now, the freshmen are… still young and hopeful and they have all this energy and all that stuff, and it’s such a contrast to the seniors who’re all fucking miserable. Even though there's fear there, particularly, like sort of shown up in the person of Ji Hyun, there's still this kind of enthusiasm? And then there's this brightness that comes off of them? And you kind of understand why Yoon Won and Jae Won gravitate, kind of, towards the freshman. And they feel protective of them, and they, they want them to have a good experience? That's one of the things that I really enjoyed about, for example, the surfing trip. They really invest in making sure that the freshmen have a good experience, like they keep the skeevy senior guys away from them…. they tell them they don't have to drink, they tell Tae Hyung, like, stop being a creep.

Ben

Right? They keep telling him to fuck off, they're like, ‘None of these rituals or things you're supposed to do that we did did anything for us. It didn't move us forward, it didn't make us closer to our seniors, it didn't help us succeed at school. We just got bullied by people who are older than us. And you hated it too, so chill the fuck out.’

Nini

Yeah! I like how invested they are, Jae Won and Yoon Won, in making sure that the freshmen have a good time, and that they're taken care of and protected. I really did like that. Like, it's almost like they want to help them preserve their innocence for a little bit longer, which I found was a great commentary to be quite frank… [laughs] I did love that. And then you also see, like you were mentioning in the character Bit Na, you're seeing somebody who could go along that trajectory towards misery, that landed Eun Ji and Tae Hyung where they are now.

Ben

Exactly, it's implied that she's doing all the things, like, you're Expected To Do(™), but there's a little bit of her being like ‘No I'm not gonna drink all that stuff from you’ and like at the end, like, she's furious with Tae Hyung. She's like, ‘No! I know that you've been causing problems for me, because you have a possessive crush on me. Fuck you. Get out of here.’

Nini

Scram! Beat it! [laughs]

Ben

Pulls out her little spray bottle: sks sks sks Move! [both laugh] Go on now, get!

Nini

So, she's sort of the antagonistic force that's pushing back against that stuff, while Ji Hyun and Ae Ri are more like that force that's laughing at that stuff. One is like, dismissive, and the other is… antagonistic. And it's two ways of dealing with the same thing.

Ben

I love how when the two of them start to bond, they just turn into like the meanest little catty duo. They're like ‘Oh well she hasn’t mentioned you at all” and “Oh has she really not? If I had a crush and had a best friend I know that I would be talking to my best friend about the crush, so… it's really embarrassing for you that she really hasn't mentioned you at all to her, right? Oh geez.’

Nini

[laughs] And he says that and then he doesn't tell Joon Pyo about his crush. Terrible.

Ben

And that's why Joon Pyo was pissed.

27:45 - The Hedwig Incident

Nini

Let’s talk about Ji Hyun and Ae Ri being catty for a second. So, we've already seen Ji Hyun and Ae Ri in class making fun of, like people giving their presentations… for this class on, I guess some kind of film studies course or whatever, because they're doing these presentations about films that they've watched or whatever. So we've seen them doing their little mean girl duo act in class already, where they, you know, kind of quietly snicker at whoever is in front of the class at the point in time — which I mean, come on, who hasn't done that with your friend in class? [laughs]

When Ji Hyun comes back from his accident, the one that they're making fun of — and this is the part that I wasn't quite sure what they were trying to say, because I didn't recognize the character. So at first I didn't know if it was a character we had already met or if it was just a character that we hadn't seen before. And I think not knowing that also made things a little more difficult to parse? Because you get the sense from the way that this character talks to them that this is a character we're supposed to know who it is. That we have seen before or something. But I don't recognize him. Anyway. So this character is doing their presentation on Hedwig and the Angry Inch, which is a… queer classic?

Ben

I have not commented on this particular moment on Tumblr, because I didn't feel like getting flamed? But this is The Conversation! So I will say what needs to be said. So a big part of this film critic class that they're taking is that most of these presentations people are giving are only doing surface level reads of the source material. And this guy's read is not that deep either, but he dresses as Hedwig and thinks like he should be getting a lot of points for that. Whereas, they give a really solid read that understands the themes being explored in the Park Chan-wook film…

Nini

I’m a Cyborg, But That’s Okay?

Ben

They give a really solid presentation, they clearly understood the themes involved, but their presentation didn't have a lot of pizzazz, and they barely passed the class team. But they don't really care, because they took what they needed from the course: they engaged with the source material, they understood it, and they moved on, whereas he's cosplaying as Hedwig, a gay character. Does he appreciate the life of this gay character?

Which for me felt like this show taking shots at performative queerness happening with BL in particular. A lot of these boys are cosplaying as gay: do they understand gay people? Do they understand the lives we live? Like you're sitting here beefing with me, an actual gay, and my hag over our presentation. But do you have any appreciation for who we are? Why don't you go ahead and scamper your ass down a little gay district off here and figure out what gay people actually live through? Like people didn't like that because they thought it read as transphobic, which it probably did, and I'm not going to begrudge people what they took from it. But for me I read it as you can cosplay as us, but you ain't us.

Nini

Hm. So I have never watched Hedwig, so… I couldn't really get a read on what they were trying to do with this? Because I didn't know if what the guy was saying had any weight of understanding to it.

Ben

It didn't… like even just knowing the film by reputation alone, and knowing older gay men who loved it, his read on it was weak. And it's, that's what, that's what I got, like — I don't want to drag anybody who is like ‘this is transphobic, and gay people should be better’ — it's also a surface level read on what's going on there. You're reacting to the fact that they diss a guy in drag, but not why they dissed a guy in drag — who started beef with them! I come from the school of talk shit get hit. So. [laughs]

Nini

[laughs] My main reaction to it, like I said because I, I don't have the… the context. Right? So my reaction to it was just kind of confused? I think that's what my overwhelming reaction was. I was confused by what was happening, I wasn't sure. I'm seeing all the takes, you know saying this is transmisogyny, this is transphobic, this is this that and the other, but the only thing that didn't read right to me about those takes — again, acknowledging that I didn't have the context — was that I don't know that this guy is part of queerness.

Ben

You know he ain't one of us because he couldn't walk in heels! You don't cosplay as Hedwig and not walk in heels.

Nini

Fair.

Ben

It's fine… The reason why I let everybody have it is, it was a deep cut and it wasn't for everybody. And that's kind of why I love The Eighth Sense because, the people who don't do their homework, who don't do the research on the genre history, who don't watch this stuff, who don't really engage in complex interactions with queerness — they kind of miss these sort of things. And I think that's okay, like, does the interaction read a little transphobic? It does. Do gay men's interactions with drag queens and other trans people often read transphobic? Hell yeah, they do! But I got it.

Like, is it a great interaction? No, but… you ain't gonna last long in queer spaces if you can't handle a botched interaction.

Nini

I feel like it was probably the only really clunky part of the show, in that it wasn't clear. I feel like everything else that happened in the show was, it was very clear — it was abundantly clear what the show was saying, what the characters were saying and feeling, what they were trying to do. But I feel like this moment, this particular interaction, was the only time I felt like the show got a little… got a little clumsy.

Ben

It's the only indulgent thing that the show really does. It's the German director's favorite film, and he was taking a dig at people who get caught up in the fact that there's… gender performance stuff in Hedwig, and the wearing of the wig and dressing as a woman stuff, but they're missing, maybe the meat of the story. They focus on the wigs and the makeup, but not the person and the story.

I have this particular beef too, like — I had an interaction with a colleague about what parts of queer cinema that they should maybe check out. And they really just wanted me to validate the things they wanted to watch. And that's kind of how this guy reads to me… like, the gay boy in the room is laughing at his performance. ‘How dare you laugh at my performance, I know I did my fucking research, I know gay people!’ [both laugh] That's — that's how that felt for me. Like, bro, why are you in my face? Like, go drink your juice Shelby, shit!

Nini

When you just said it like that, it made me think about white gays appropriating the language of the ballroom.

Ben

Well yeah, exactly, that's exactly what it feels like! Like… you aren't us, but you're wearing us. And it's fine, like you can get your little grade, you can make your little coins. But like, the rest of us are still here, trying to create queer lives that have meaning and comfort to them. Are you going to be with us there? That’s, like, if we're going to beef with this show for being rude to a guy in drag… what have you done for us lately? Like you might be queer too, and I don't mean to make you feel bad… but also if you're queer and all you do is watch BL, there's way more work to be done sweetie!

Let go of your beef about the Hedwig scene, go watch Hedwig. Go watch I'm a Cyborg, But That's Okay. Then go watch the fucking sequences where these kids gave weak-ass takes about these really classic films, and then understand why they were getting laughed at by the teacher too. Like sure you dressed as Hedwig, but do you appreciate her? No? Okay, you get a B plus, I guess. Thank you for wearing drag.

It's not the most elegant moment in the thing? But it's one of those moments that it's like: who knows and who doesn't know?

36:32 - Ae Ri

Ben

Let's just talk about some fun gay shit. Let’s talk about Ae Ri! [laughs]

Nini

Ae Ri’s an interesting character. Ae Ri is a Seoul kid, so she's not like a country mouse innocent like Ji Hyun. She's with it, she knows what's going on, she, she understands the haps, you know what I mean? She's savvy. And she becomes Ji Hyun’s…

Ben

She becomes a hag. Let's call her what she is. Let's give her the term of endearment that we used to hand out to the best of the ladies.

Nini

She becomes the hag, yes, she becomes his fairy godmother. The way that she just kind of scoops Ji Hyun up? And is just like, ‘oh you poor little baby, come, let me help you because you very clearly need help’ [laughs] I just think that's delightful. I think that the way that their friendship develops — because at first Ji Hyun is convinced that she has a crush on him. And honestly, I'm not sure that he was wrong.

Ben

Elaborate.

Nini

I think that she clocked him when she had actually like, spent time with him?

Ben

I don't think she was paying attention to him until he drank the — until he drank the liquor for them, and then she's like, ‘Why would he do that, because all he does is look at Jae Won — Ohhh.’ [laughs]

Nini

Yeah, I feel like that's, that's where we go with this, it’s like ‘Aww! He's nice! Let me go scoop him up because he clearly needs help! Because he is not going to make it like this.’

Ben

He did though, like he needed somebody to be like ‘Bro. If you're trying to be closeted, because it seems like you are, let me just be clear: you’re doing a terrible job sweetie. Also? Them fits is busted. We need to buy you some clothes, like immediately. We're going shopping right now.’

Nini

It's like, ‘You’re trying to get Jae Won's attention? This is not how you do it. Okay, we're gonna need to accentuate those eyes darling. Ok?’ [laughs]

She's the best girl. She ends up being protective of Ji Hyun, and because she's protective of Ji Hyun she also becomes protective of the people that Ji Hyun cares about, and Ji Hyun cares about Jae Won. So she becomes protective of Jae Won [laughs]. And she has claws! And she will use them. We talked about it earlier, but that scene where she just very neatly — she and Ji Hyun very neatly take Tae Hyung apart. The reason that they take him apart is because he goes for Jae Won, and Jae Won just looks really sad about it, and they're like ‘Not to-fuckin-day! We are going to end your entire career.’

She's the best girl. She's the best girl. I want her to have everything that she wants. I don't know what she wants, because it's not really clear, but I want her to have whatever she wants. She just seems to be vibin’, and I always love a character who's vibin’.

Ben

The reason why I like Ae Ri is, in a room of seniors being awful to her friend, she stood up and challenged them — and that was scary for her. Like she broke down in tears after that confrontation with the other seniors and Eun Ji. If you read that a certain way you're like, well is she weak or whatever? Like no, it's, it's scary to stand up in front of a bunch of people who are being awful and tell them like no, you guys are mean and this is not right.

Nini

That confrontation among the surf club after Ji Hyun has his accident is so ugly. You really see how self-centered these people are, these seniors. They do not care that this kid nearly died.

Like yeah ok, they're upset about their club getting canceled because it's not technically fair. It's not like, you know, this was a club activity that he got hurt at. So yeah, ok, it's not technically fair, but the claws that they have out! And the way that they completely dismiss that at this point Ji Hyun is still in the hospital! It's not like he's back. He's still in the hospital, and they are so catty and vicious.

Ben

I don't even know if he was conscious at that point.

Nini

Yeah! He's — like he's, they're all so vicious about it. It's like they don't care whether he lives or dies? They don't care about anything other than the fact that this is inconveniencing them. And… that, Ae Ri takes that in, she like feels that, she internalizes that, and she realizes: y'all don't give a fuck about us.

Which, which we’re dealing with like intergenerational relationships, and you're in a situation where you are the low man on the totem pole. You expect a certain amount of care and consideration to be taken with regards to you, because you're, you're the low man on the totem pole, you can't protect yourself necessarily. You need these people to care for and protect you. And… realizing, quite clearly and unambiguously, that these people will not protect her. They will not protect any of them. They don't care. Like I can understand why she breaks down.

Ben

Exactly. Like it's terrifying to realize that the people you're asked to respect do not give a shit about you. They'll demand abasement all the time, but when some shit popped off, did they care about Jae Won? Did they care about Ji Hyun? No, they're like: wow this is awfully inconvenient for us isn't it.

Nini

It was so ugly. I just remember being shocked, like you — I felt that one, you know what I mean? It wasn't just like, the intellectualization of what was happening on screen, I felt that deep somewhere inside of me.

42:50 - Ji Hyun and Jae Won

Ben

My appreciation for The Eighth Sense is more intellectual than it is emotional. I think it's very excellent: I gave it a 9.5 when I rated it? But I'm not… obsessed with the romance of this the way I might have been in another show. I like the way this one unfolds; I really like the way these two talk to each other. I like the way they see each other, I like that they totally misunderstood each other after the near-death crisis moment, and I like that other people pulled their heads out of their asses for them, so that they could be together, and then they followed through on that.

But because this is just a very ‘boy likes boy’ sort of story, there isn't really a whole lot to say about the romance, but I do think we should take some time to unpack how we see Jae Won and Ji Hyun engaging with each other.

Nini

Yeah, so let's do that. These two are, as you would have said before, drawn to each other from the start, like Jae Won clocks Ji Hyun in the restaurant, Ji Hyun clocks Jae Won… I haven't rewatched the first couple of episodes as yet, but I think I remember that when Jae Won goes outside to smoke, Ji Hyun follows him?

Ben

Ji Hyun is outside, maybe on like a break or whatever? Just decompressing after a stressful moment, and all of Jae Won and his friends are maybe thinking about leaving. And then Jae Won asks for a lighter so he can light a cigarette.

Nini

He asks for the cigarette first, because he doesn't have a cigarette. He asks for a cigarette and he asks for a lighter, which is why I thought I remembered Ji Hyun following him outside, because the lighter that he gives him is the gas match for the restaurant, not like a, a standard bic. It's the big… gas match that he uses so — to light the cigarette for him, and he gives him two cigarettes. One for now and one one for later.

Ben

Jae Won was definitely flirting in a subtle way, and then Ji Hyun responds in a way that's like, I see you, but it both gave them the chance to back off of it and just write it off. Which is where I started to really appreciate the show, because… BL flirting is too overt sometimes.

Nini

It’s a dance that I've seen before, this kind of, I think you are but are you? And there's like these little subtle signals, and all these other things… I mean I don't need to tell: you're gay, you know.

Ben

[laughs] No no Nini! Go on!

Nini

Hilarious. [both laugh] Fine, read me.

Ben

Nah, it's, it's legitimately fun for me to see what other people are picking up on.

Nini

The thing is that it's so easy to dismiss, and it has to be. So these two, they clock each other, they do the dance, you know — ‘are you? I think you are, but are you? I think you are’ kind of dance.

Ben

What's so fun about them dancing is, like it could have been a one off moment. But then Ji Hyun joins the surfing club. And Ji Hyun forces Jae Won to see him. Like ‘No, my name is Ji Hyun, what's yours? You said you wanted to be friends. Were you just bullshitting me, or were you just flirting?’

Nini

Yeah, Ji Hyun is actually pretty…

Ben

He's so brave! I love him!

Nini

He is pretty forward for a baby gay, I will say that.

Ben

He knows who he is. And he sees a boy in pain — who's very pretty — and he's like, ‘I can help him.’ Not ‘I can fix him.’ ‘I can help him’ — Ji Hyun doesn't really demand anything of Jae Won really. He just won't let Jae Won fully push him away, and continues to offer him emotional support. He's incredibly patient, in a way that maybe city folk aren't used to.

Nini

Being city folk myself I can't, like, speak to city versus country in that regard, because I simply don't have the country experience.

Ben

I'm from Louisiana! [laughs]

Nini

The extra shot in that daiquiri gettin to ya, huh?

Ben

It really is. We are two-thirds of the way through this 32 ounces? That's a lot. [laughs]

Nini

There is something to be said for like, the way that Ji Hyun is… he's brave, he's forward, but he does it in this kind of quiet still way. He's pushing, there's definitely no doubt that he's pushing. But he's also not pushy?

Ben

When I was really on Twitter a lot, there’s this writer I used to follow, his name is Anthony Oliveira? He's queer, and he used to say like once or twice a day on his Twitter, he would say: Be brave enough to be kind. And that's where Ji Hyun fits for me. Even when he's being catty with people, it's only with people who came at him sideways. It's… the Hedwig boy coming at him for no reason, it's Eun Ji beefing with him for no reason, it's Joon Pyo picking on him a little bit, and him being like nah, fuck you bro. Other than that, he treats people really well. He gives people back the energy they give him. Like when they drag Tae Hyung, we mentioned this earlier, he was being shitty about Bit Na when she wasn't even there. And it's like bro, she don’t owe you nothin’.

That's kind of what I love about Ji Hyun, because that's what he gives Jae Won. Jae Won flirted with him a little bit, he flirted back. He won't let Jae Won run away after starting that with him, like ‘Hm! You made a mistake — you should not have started this!’ And like, he's so confident at the end, like he's singing a song, like, ‘I won, ha ha!’

Nini

It's like ‘Jae Won’s miiiiiine, Jae Won’s miiiiiine’ [laughs] I love that so much!

Ben

And Eun Ji’s like, ‘What’s it like to win?’ and he’s like ‘Hm, I’ll tell you later tonight!’ [laughs] And let's talk about that boy later that night, because he pinned that boy down… he's like oh no, we've been here for four hours of this TV show? It's time to get mine.

Nini

Ahhh, he literally said — what's the line that he said? ‘Don't laugh, you don't know what's coming next.’

Ben

Right? I was like, baby boy!

Nini

I loved that, I loved that!

Ben

I was in my — I was like yeeeeees bitch, yeeeeeees!

[both laugh]

Ben

Get! It! In!

Nini

He's like, I — he's like, I may look, I may look innocent but I ain't that innocent, you know, kind of…

Ben

He said I am suited, tooted, and booted!

Nini

He’s like, I have the internet, I know how these things go… [laughs]

Ben

It's a piece of cake to bake a pretty cake.

[both laugh]

Nini

God I hate you. [both laugh] Oh god…

50:38 - Joon Pyo and Boss Lady

Ben

Speaking of getting it in… let's talk about my boy Joon Pyo.

Nini

Hello! Hello. I said it in the clown server and I'm gonna repeat it on this podcast and I don't care how filthy it is okay? You just know — I'm sorry he might be a virgin, but I know that dick game bomb. I know it!

Ben

Look, we've been here a while; anybody who's still listening wants to be here. Let's talk about this for a second. Both Yoon Won and Joon Pyo are fat characters, who are seen enjoying food repeatedly in this show, and I am so glad that the two of them get to have what was clearly a very enjoyable makeout session with each other. And got to vibe for the rest of the night, and are confirmed to dip — off to wherever they're going on their own, so we got time to do our little gay thing we need to next to my rain! bow! lamp! in this room.

My boy! He's been there for his homie the whole time, because he knows his friend gets lonely, he tries to make sure he does social things with him. Maybe he's a little overbearing, maybe he's a little codependent, but he had his boy’s back, and when his boy was down for the count? He starts working at his job, treating the boss with respect — because the boss seems like she might be picky about who she lets work with her. And she seemed to like Joon Pyo too! He brought that man his school supplies to make sure that he didn't have to lose a semester. And when he found out that his homie was gay, and the reason he almost died was for some dick? He was like, ‘shit was it worth it? Yes? We need to secure that bag, don't we? What we doing next?’

Nini

He was for it!

Ben

He stumbled briefly, he's like ‘Wait, Ae Ri knew before me?’ ‘Yeah, but she's from Seoul, she clocked me, I don't know.’ ‘All right, so she's just smart. Is she cool? Are we friends now, does that mean I get to hang out with cool people?’ My man is always looking at the best way to proceed forward. Ain't nobody doing it like my man Joon Pyo.

Nini

Not just that — when, after all this shit when Ji Hyun and Jae Won finally get back together, Joon Pyo clears out of the room that first night, he's like, ‘clearly y'all got some stuff to be doing and I don't want to be here while y'all do it.’

Ben

Right? Jae Won, he's like where'd you, like I felt — I felt it for Ji Hyun, like he wakes up in the morning and Jae Won's gone and like, that boy is not well. We knew that boy almost hurt himself in the show. Ji Hyun’s, ah, understandably worried, he goes out and he's just vibing with with Joon Pyo and he's like ‘well what's going on here?’ He's like ‘well Joon Pyo hung out outside all night for us, so. He brought us coffee, I'm honoring the man's commitment to us.’ And Joon Pyo’s like, ‘you're very pretty and popular, like… would you please take me clubbing?’ He's like ‘hell yeah, let's go clubbing. Let's get you some, son!’

Nini

[laughs] I love that!

Ben

And he's like ‘how do I need to dress, how do I need to be?’ He’s like ‘man you just need to be yourself’ … says the rich boy with all the nice clothes. [laughs]

Nini

You just know that Jae Won gonna make it rain on Joon Pyo at the club. He's going to make sure that he has everything.

Ben

I love Joon Pyo. I liked how there were kind people even in Seoul, like… like these are two freshmen clearly not used to Seoul who want to try specialty drinks for the first time. And I like how that bartender only teased them briefly, and then gave them the kind of popular drinks people their age might want to enjoy. Like that felt so gentle to me in a way, and it really stuck out when I watched it.

Nini

I feel like one of the things that the show gets right, that I really enjoyed, was that the businesses around a university are really accustomed to having students — particularly new students who don't know what the fuck they're doing. The people who work and who own and work in businesses around a university can really be quite nice like that.

Ben

That's how I feel about the boss character. She clearly loves young people, in a genuine way, and like Eun Ji thought she was really doing some stuff, ‘Oh I'm about to post a negative review on you on Yelp.’ And I like how she's like ‘Business improved as a result of your negative review, you insufferable waste of human flesh.’ [laughs] People were like, ‘So this mean catty person got chewed out by, by a business owner for being rude to the support staff? Yeah, we should go to that place.’

I like how the boss doesn't have a name, because it doesn't really matter if she has a name or not, because she's a temporary component of their lives. They're not going to really remember her name in a way that it matters, they're going to remember the things she said to them. They're going to remember how she treated them. They're going to remember like, how she helped them grow, how she pushed them to choose the things in their lives that they wanted. And like that's what matters about her character. Like, that's why they don't give her a name, because it doesn't matter what her name is, because she's so much older than them that we don't have to distinguish her. She is the positive older mentor figure in their lives.

Nini

I just think of her as such a, I mean, [laughs] Because you’re right, she doesn’t get a name, but she is so important to… not just having the story unfold, but she's important to the characters.

56:28 - Let’s Talk About The Kissing (And Episode 6)

Ben

Let's talk about the kissing?

Nini

You go first.

Ben

Oh absolutely not. [Nini laughs] You of the… you of the, ‘all of the kissing is bad and I have notes?’ [laughs]

No, it's fine, I'm gonna go first cause, I have more fun than you sometimes with these terrible kiss scenes. I will say that overall I enjoyed the execution of intimacy in this because everyone is very earnest, and I never feel like I'm not observing the character. This is shored up by the fact that Im Ji Sub gives absolutely terrible kisses with Eun Ji’s actress, on purpose. Straight actors will win me over so much in queer cinema when, when they're forced to kiss women, they look like they hate it. [laughs]

Nini

From a character standpoint I found it very believable.

Ben

Okay.

Nini

I found it extremely believable from a character standpoint. It wasn't pretty, but it's not supposed to be pretty? Jae Won is definitely more experienced than Ji Hyun, and that shows? It works for me, because I don't feel like Ji Hyun is supposed to be good at it. I feel like he's new to the whole thing, and because of that, the enthusiasm carries more for me than the technique. He's new to it but he's going for it in a particular kind of way. There's some little acting choices that Oh Jun Taek does, like he opens his mouth, like really wide when —

Ben

I loved it! The first time I thought, I was like, go — I was like go in baby boy!

Nini

I loved that, because — that's the kind of thing you do when you're learning to kiss, you overcompensate.

Ben

I love it.

Nini

You overcompensate when you're learning to kiss, it’s one of the things that you do, so I actually really like that detail? He looks like he wants to swallow Jae Won whole, and I really [laughs] really like that —

Ben

I fucking love it, I loved it so much —

Nini

I really love that and that's, that's the kissing at the end, but then the kissing sort of in between as well, is really… good, because those kisses — those kisses like towards the end… like they're together at that point, you know what I mean, it's a whole different thing. But the way that he kisses him before that, there is a little bit of tentativeness to it, some — in some parts? When they're surfing when they're on their trip, and he kisses them in the sea? Like, in terms of pretty? Those are the pretty, those are the prettiest kisses, like you know what I mean? Those, those aesthetically pleasing, all that good stuff, and you feel the sense of euphoria that's coming out of it? They are having this whole moment, there is so much joy in those kisses, which I truly love.

And that's the other thing, like every — all the kisses have different moods. And you know I like to follow the trajectory of a relationship through the… to the intimacy and how it's being portrayed. So watching all the kisses and the, all the intimacy have different moods to it? Fantastic. I can't complain about it. Is it pretty? In a lot of instances, no. Does it feel real? Absolutely a hundred percent, all the time.

See? See?

Ben

I'm so relieved y'all, because normally I'm like ‘I really enjoyed that!’ and Nini's like ‘Hmmm… it was terrible’ and I'm like, ‘Awww.’ [laughs]

Nini

You know, I'm out here being Beyonce, ‘look at my technique,’ you know kinda thing [laughs] And Ben's like ‘No!’

[both laugh]

Ben

Leave them alone! They're doing their best, shit.

Nini

No… No but I really, I did, I did like it here. It's also maybe something to do with the style, because the style is so vérité? When you get an ugly kiss — quote unquote ugly kiss — in a vérité style, it feels different…

Nini

…than when you get a quote unquote ugly kiss in a style that's very polished.

Ben

I know what you mean. Like a —

Nini

You know?

Ben

Right, right. When it feels very fanciful and like ‘this is the best kiss that's ever happened,’ and you're like ‘oh but it wasn't.’

Nini

Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Precisely.

Ben

All right, so, while we're talking about the intimacy and stuff, I think we should talk about episode 6 reactions. First, I'm going to say that I loved episode 6, and I particularly enjoyed the way they handled the intimacy of episode 6? I think that was very appropriate for… the newness of the actors, the lack of an intimacy coordinator…

I want to talk about the reaction. I don't know if you were on Tumblr for this, but there was a lot of discussion at the end of episode 6 where people were saying that episode 6 was not real. That it was fake — and I have written on Tumblr on record about how much I hated that take, and I want to unpack it here.

Nini

I did see the reactions on Tumblr, I mostly stayed out of it… I didn't really delve too much into The Eighth Sense discussion? I did do, like a little thing about Eun Ji, but I didn't really delve into The Eighth Sense discussion because I wanted it to play out. I felt like The Eighth Sense is one of those shows that… the episodic discussion wasn't going to give much. I felt like it's one of those shows where I needed to see the full, the full thing, to really… understand. Because it's not — as, as we said earlier in the show, it's not really one of those… episode by episode kind of things where the plot is what's driving it or whatever, it's really about the interactions that these characters are having, the way that they're interacting with their surroundings.

It's why we've been jumping back and forth in discussion, and like it's how I felt about it while it was airing, so I really kinda, didn't really delve too much into the whole episode 6 discussion. I saw it, but… I wasn't getting into it.

Ben

I guess I'm just gonna deliver a little read while we're here then.

Nini

Okay!

Ben

[laughs] Here we go!

Nini

Here we go.

Ben

I don't want to disrespect anyone before we get into this. Let me be clear. Like, I do believe people were relying on very fair reads of traditional filming techniques, for why they believed that some parts of… episode 6 might have not been real, or that Jae Won would— became an unreliable narrator for it? But I think it's very important to talk about this.

Just because it's unpleasant to consider does not mean it's not real. This is not meant to be read as disrespect to those of you trying to make sense of what's going on because you were nervous and concerned for Ji Hyun. That is valid. But, please understand, that for me — this is just me! As a queer person in these streets with y'all — whenever you all seemingly get squicked out because one of us isn't being entertaining or sexy? It makes me feel a little bit unwelcome. That's all I'm going to say about that, because you know who was right as of episode 7? Me! It was real!

[both laugh]

Ben

I was insufferable that week, I feel sorry for everybody who had to talk to me.

Nini

[laughs] I didn't think you were insufferable.

Ben

I felt insufferable. I was smug! My crops were watered.

Nini

The field in which you grew your fucks was barren.

[both laugh]

Ben

I don't want anyone to feel embarrassed if you just — felt called out by what I just said. But I would like you to approach these shows with just a little more kindness. The goal of watching TV is not to be right. It's about finding connection — with fictional people, and the real people who are also finding that connection with you. It can bring you closer to other people. It can help you understand other people. It can bring you just a little bit of peace and joy in an otherwise difficult time. There are no points to be awarded, you are not taking a test when you watch these shows. So please… be kinder to yourselves. Be kind to the people making these stories, and be kind to the people who are also watching them alongside you.

Nini

[singing] Message!

Ben

I'm a little drunk but that's all I'm going to say on that!

1:06:21 - The Party Scene and Forgiveness

Nini

Let's talk about that end scene, the party.

Ben

Okay, let's talk about forgiveness for the next thirty minutes. [laughs]

Nini

I think that's a good segue from what you just said: let's talk a little bit about forgiveness.

Ben

I'm gonna let Nini talk, because I just made you guys feel bad for like, probably 10 minutes of this edit.

Here's the thing: Nini and I… came down on the side of forgiveness for this. But Nini and I are a little bit older than some of the viewers, so… I'll let you talk about the final scene and particularly how there were mixed reactions to Jae Won’s and Ji Hyun’s decision to reconcile, at a party, with Tae Hyung and Eun Ji: the two worst offenders of this particular story. Nini?

Nini

See here's the thing: I didn't read it as a reconciliation? And that's probably why I have a, like a different view of it. So the way that I read that is, when you're stonkingly giddy happy… when you are at a celebratory event, when you are… drinking, let's just be real about it… It is so easy to just be like, ‘You know what? I don't want to fight, I don't want to argue. I just want to let all this go… like, there's so much love in this club, I'm just gonna…’ [laughs]

Ben

And there is love in this club tonight! Some of you don't even know.

Nini

That's part of it. That's definitely part of it. But also, you have to understand what's happening with Tae Hyung, and with Eun Ji in here as well.

Tae Hyung is a dick. That doesn't change throughout the show. He was a dick at the start of the show, at the end of the show he's still a dick… nothing about him changes. But you get to understand the value that Jae Won finds in Tae Hyung. Because he… outright asks him, Tae Hyung asks him ‘Why are you still friends with me?’ because Tae Hyung doesn't even understand why Jae Won keeps him around. And what Jae Won says about that, he’s just like… Basically he tells him, ‘I keep you around because you don't mask and I find that really refreshing.’ That's basically what he tells him.

And that makes so much sense to me. And it also makes me understand why he would just let the shit go, at this point. Because Tae Hyung's not going to change. We see that at the same party. He continues to try to hit on Bit Na. He has to get read to the ground by Bit Na for his bullshit. Tae Hyung is never going to change.

Ben

That's true. He's the most bitchless motherfucker in the whole show.

[both laugh]

Nini

Completely! A hundred percent. He's never going to change, and Jae Won finds that comforting. Also, I have seen men forgive each other for all kinds of shit? So that just read a hundred percent true to me. I have seen dudes fight, box, wrestle, nearly kill each other… and then two days later they're out together hanging out.

Ben

Dude I've seen them after the fight bloody, like crying, hugging each other like I love you bro! [laughs] And I'm like, the hell just happened?

Nini

That rang a hundred percent true to me… I think that if Tae Hyung and Jae Won stay in contact — because there's no guarantee that that's going to happen either, because they're coming to the end of things now. The fact that they're having this party because Yoon Won got a job means that things are starting to move. Where all the seniors were stuck before, things are now starting to move for them. They're coming to the end of this period of their lives anyway, so they've also got like a hefty whiff of nostalgia permeating the whole thing, and also? They don't know if they're gonna see each other really, after this. They don't know if they're going to stay friends. It's easy in that situation to just let the shit go, and I've seen the situation happen so many times before and I'm just kind of like, you know what? That rang true for me, I wasn't worried about that.

Ben

I’m with Nini. As a boy, I have friends like that. Where… you know who this person is: kind of a sad sack, kind of a shit heel, and you get it. But they're weirdly there? And so, you just accept these losses, like yeah he tried to get me kicked out of school but he failed, because he sucks, so… whatever. Was that annoying? Yes. Is he going to apologize for it? No. But he wouldn't be himself if he apologized. And like that's not great, but this is again a reflection of the current state of social… politics.

Nini

It's more of a question of, is this realistic? And to me, yes it is.

Ben

Nini and I are both from cultures that have carnival. And so like, I've seen this happen at Mardi Gras, where blood feuds have ended because, like, we ran into each other at a parade. And like, the right thing was said at the right moment, and people just let go of decades worth of beef. Like it can happen! And like, the question is like, does holding on to this anger at Tae Hyung help Jae Won take care of Ji Hyun? So let it go.

Nini

The way I can best describe it is: whatever, I'm over it. It's not like he's gonna, like make him like godparent to his first born or anything like that, I don't think that's where their relationship is going. I'd be surprised if they're speaking to each other in two years. For now, at a party? Everybody's happy, everybody's drinking. You're gonna go home with your boyfriend later and have a great time, like… [laughs]

Ben

Right? The music is good, the drinks are flowing, there's love in this club tonight.

Nini

The other one that everybody’s upset about is Ji Hyun forgiving Eun Ji. Now I also found that incredibly believable. Not just for party reasons but also for career reasons? Eun Ji is still his senior. The first thing he does, like when he walks up to her, is he apologizes for being snarky with her. In the moment and like the heat of battle so to speak, he might have popped off at the mouth, but he's gonna feel bad about it later. And I can see him, like, apologizing to her about it. And I can genuinely see her, having lost so comprehensively? Licking her wounds, taking a step back, and reassessing her entire life.

Ben

Here's the thing about the way she lost to Ji Hyun. What she realized from Jae Won handing her her entire ass was, Ji Hyun was never her enemy. She lost way before this boy showed up. And so all the beef she had with him in this whole competition for Jae Won? Was nil, because he said, ‘I saw you.’ And so all of the presumption she had about, like, what was at stake, is this a battle for Jae Won’s booty or whatever… Like none of that works out. He had already dismissed her. And he was adamant: he did not want to be with her, the whole time. So she feels like an asshole, because she's been in the wrong the whole time.

And maybe like a part of her was true about this. Maybe she was just bitter that Jae Won was gone. She's mad about him being gone, but she didn't do right by him and she lied. That's the big thing, like she's been caught lying. There's no coming back from that. Whatever her goals were for Jae Won, she had to eat that bowl of shit, and set it aside. And like there's no value for her in beefing with Ji Hyun anymore, because it just further exacerbates how much of an asshole she is. This boy did literally nothing to her, and they are not equals in a struggle for the heart of a bisexual boy. She lost her chance before this boy showed up. And so it's actually good to see her becoming the senior she's supposed to be, now that she has some experience to maybe pass on and grow from.

Nini

I agree with that read, I really think that she's reassessing and reevaluating her entire life at this point? She's feeling a little vulnerable, she's feeling a little… raw. She’s feeling a little humbled, and so… when you're feeling that way, just what do you do? You sit quietly and you try not to do too much. I don't know if this feels the way that it feels to me because I am an old bitch? But… [laughs] The first and hopefully last time you ever find yourself beefing with a fetus? Like… [laughs]

Ben

BEEFING WITH A FETUS! AAAAH! [laughs]

Nini

You know I'm right. You know I'm right.

Ben

I know what you mean! I mean there’re times, I'm like, oh lord I almost threw hands with a 12 year old today.

[both laugh]

Nini

You literally like, when somebody slaps into you like, what are you doing? Like this is a child! Hopefully it only ever happens to you once. And hopefully you very quickly realize that you are, in fact… you're in an antagonistic situation with a child.

Ben

It's really hard to realize sometimes that you are wrong. And to accept that and try to, like, move on from it properly. Like, I think she does okay. And like, she's still an asshole… just like Tae Hyung’s still an asshole. But I think she does okay.

Nini

To me it feels right, that the end is not… a comeuppance in that sense or a vengeance, but it's more like everybody being like, ‘Look okay, we all been through it. Let's just hug that shit out. Maybe I'll see you again, maybe I won't, but for right now, we’re here, it's a party, let's just have a good time, and not like do all this shit.’

1:17:14 - On a Possible Second Season

Ben

Speaking of ‘maybe we'll see each other again’ how do you feel about returning to these characters?

Nini

As you always say: Dick is not magical, it does not fix you.

Ben

It does not!

Nini

And there's still a lot, particularly on Jae Won’s side, like there's stuff with Ji Hyun too, but especially with Jae Won, there's still a lot there… in terms of his mental health, in terms of his family, in terms of all that stuff. So… there is room there? For something else, that could be interesting, but… I feel like if this was all there was, I would be good with it.

How do you feel? What, what are your thoughts on a potential sequel?

Ben

So we talked about sequels in the spring season and I was really amped about sequels! I don't… feel the pull for one here yet. I'm not opposed, because… these characters are so strong, like we're gonna remember these characters, we're gonna remember Ji Hyun, Jae Won, Joon Pyo, Yoon Won, Eun Ji, Tae Hyung, the boss… Ae Ri! Don't forget my girl, I'm sorry boo boo. We're going to remember these characters, and their characterizations are fairly strong. So I am confident that the voice of the characters is strong enough to carry them into whatever new situations they want to put these characters through.

However… I believe that this particular outing had a lot of very specific things they wanted to say, about queerness, about being Korean, about being young in Korea… and I hope that if they really want to continue the story, that they have more things that they think are worth saying, and they do that in a way that's legible. I am just concerned that they aren't prepared for… a domestic story where one of them is still in school? And the other one is trying to survive their homophobic family? And abusive dad. And I'm not entirely certain that I am… eager to explore that?

I'm not opposed to a sequel, I'm not yearning for one, but I do hope that we get more melodrama out of these guys. I enjoyed this production a lot! Even if we don't get more of The Eighth Sense, I hope that this team continues to make cool stuff. I really loved the way Oh Jun Taek played Ji Hyun this whole time. I loved the way he moved, I loved the way he spoke, I loved his smile. And like, I like how in the final episodes when Jae Won has, almost the Japanese running-to-the-boy moment, I just love the way that… Ji Hyun is just so ecstatic to finally get what he's been hoping for. And he's clingy for the final parts of this show, and he's having a good time! He's literally radiant for the rest of the show! Oh Jun Taek plays the relief and joy of that character so well.

Like you see, even Jae Won, like you can see his old bones creaking. That's, he's like ‘I can experience joy again?’ as he quickly wakes up for this, and like — I feel like some of the… final bits were a little bit rushed? But I'm not going to complain, because like… I like the therapy bit with Jae Won, like it allows me to be forgiving about a character — who's had a lot of emotional struggles for the whole fucking show — to very quickly adapt to the situation, and like ‘no, we're boyfriends now.’ Like you can see the work of somebody who spent a great deal of time working with a professional about how he's feeling and how to manage them… expressing them properly, now that the hugest block is out of his way. And that lands really well for me in the final moments, like in another show it might have felt like this got resolved too quickly.

Nini

I don't feel like it did get resolved too quickly. If I have to do like, one more ding for the show: I think that the passage of time, particularly in this last two episodes, wasn't really clear?

Ben

It is not.

Nini

There's a sequence where Ji Hyun is in a classroom and he's sitting in different positions in the classroom and wearing different clothes, and we're meant to understand that that is time passing. So there is a bunch of time that passes, in episode 9 in particular, that I don't think it’s very clear to the audience that there is a lot of time passing. We're seeing Jae Won becoming stronger and stronger and happier and happier. But because it all happens in a montage where it's not clear that time is passing, it feels rushed. I don't know how much time there is? But it feels like they go through a season, because you see his clothes change. At one point he's just wearing a t-shirt, and then the next time when they meet each other up, they're back into like maybe something heavier, like more like fall clothes? So I feel like they at least went through the summer.

Ben

Though I did love this show, this is not a show that's going to be, like, part of my personal canon.

Nini

For me, it's like… I can appreciate it as being objectively good. I can feel the emotions that it was going for?... Watching it is kind of… ticking something off a film syllabus.

Ben

That's the exact feeling… that like, I think it is!

Nini

That makes it sound bad in a way, but I don't mean for it to sound bad.

Ben

It goes on the must-watch list, but you're like, ehhh.

Nini

It's all the things: it's good, it's worthy, it's enjoyable, it's emotional… It's all of the things that you want a drama to be. I will recommend it for sure, I think it's important work. I… don't really see myself rewatching it? It touches me but it doesn't give me the visceral feelings.

Ben

This is not calling the show bad!

Nini

Objectively, this is a 10 show for me.

Ben

Don't let our mid commentary at the end of this two and a half hour recording deter you. We loved this show! And like we said in the beginning, we will remember every single one of these characters, because they're so vivid, and they're so expertly crafted. Do we recommend The Eighth Sense? Wholeheartedly yes! Please! You should experience this. Go watch this.

1:24:10 - Checking in Two Months Later

Ben

Okay, Nini… it's been about two months I think since The Eighth Sense ended at this point? How are you feeling about it two months later?

Nini

As I predicted I have not rewatched it. I have not felt the need to rewatch it. When I was doing the edit I was listening to us talk about it and everything just came flooding back. Like I could remember distinctly how I felt watching it, the things that we were talking about, but I still don't feel compelled to rewatch it.

I feel like it's one of those things where… it has stuck? Somewhere deep inside? And because it stuck I don't need to go back to it and reinterpret it and review it and look at it again, I feel like it was so clear. It was so legible. It spoke for itself really, and so I don't feel the need to go over and over and over it. It's very different from how I normally consume media because if I'm really into something I will go over and over and over and over it. This is… very different for me, a very different experience of taking in media.

What about you Ben, how do you feel about it a few months down the line?

Ben

I feel a bit weird about it, and I think a big part of it is the way that the team behind it is continuing to release behind the scenes content in a way that I wasn't expecting — like I was hoping it’d feel more akin to… the gravitas with which Boss and them released the I Told Sunset About You documentaries. But it's been a little bit on the silly side?

There's talk about them doing a second season. And I'm not opposed, but I feel like it's left me in a liminal space with the show, like I feel like I'm sitting on a, like a train station waiting for the next train to come.

What has stuck with me, and I was thinking about this when I listened to the edit, is: I'm so glad that we had that whole conversation on forgiveness. Because let me tell you, the amount of peace I have had over this show because I'm not sitting here hating on Tae Hyung or Eun Ji all these months later? Because they just don't matter. I really like that the show left us with these two driving down a tunnel together and saying, ‘Whatever is coming next, we'll do this together.’ That's so lovely.

Like I feel like where I was with the show at the end of it, like it is one of those things that goes… in my cataloging of, this is a really good piece that I am going to remember and recommend to the youths, when they ask me about things that are worth watching from certain places or from certain angles. But I don't necessarily find myself yearning for Jae Won or Ji Hyun the way I have for other people. It was fun though, revisiting our absolutely unhinged love for Joon Pyo when I went back through this. [laughs] I still love that boy so much.

Nini

Joon Pyo the MVP! Everybody needs a friend like him. Everybody.

Ben

He was a really good friend.

I think what stands out for me really about The Eighth Sense is that the field itself is just so much more crowded now. So much good stuff was airing when this show aired, more good stuff has aired since this show aired. It's not a knock on The Eighth Sense, it's just that… we have such a wide variety of excellent offerings to choose from, that I find that you're going to be able to find shows that hit your specific emotional resonances more consistently. Regardless of how good The Eighth Sense is, it didn't fully resonate with the exact weird queer sensibilities I have, that would make me put it into one of my heart shows.

Nini

You know what it is I think, Ben? I think we're getting older. [Ben laughs] I think this is an intensely youthful show. I watch these coming of age dramas all the time I mean, you spoke about ITSAY and that still like hits me like a ton of bricks. But that's because it feels like my youth?

Whereas, I feel oddly… both connected and disconnected from The Eighth Sense. It feels like a youth that I'm familiar with? But not one that I have experienced? We talked about the millennial thing when we were talking about the show, and how this feels like that. But it still feels distant from my experience of being a millennial somehow? I think maybe I'm just too old for the show. Like, I can appreciate it for what it is, but I'm too old for it and it doesn't hit the nostalgia buttons that I Told Sunset About You and I Promised You the Moon and shows like that hit. I think this is one for the kids, Ben.

Ben

I don't think that's bad! What I'll say is, I'm really glad that there is room for that now. We've been talking in other spaces about how fandom feels like it's bifurcating too many times now, that it feels thinner than it used to be? Like it feels like there used to be a lot more of us around. But I just feel like a big thing at this point is, we're not all trying to get some sort of energy from the exact same shows anymore.

Right now I'm yelling on Tumblr about a whole show that Nini is just not watching. And I think that's okay, because Nini and I are still screaming at each other about at least two or three other shows, and so like I'm not feeling despondent because Nini, who's one of my best friends in fandom, isn't watching one of the shows that I'm really enjoying right now. It's okay that The Eighth Sense is the type of coming of age experience that maybe is more suited for the Gen Z types than the millennials.

Nini

So now that we have fully memento mori’d ourselves, I think that's that's a wrap for us. [laughs]

Ben

It's a really good show guys. Don't, don't get us wrong like we're, we're being a little bit wistful at the end of this, but — I really liked this show. Like I still, I stand by everything we said in the original recording.

I really like the performances here, I really like the gumption of this entire production. I really like the casting choices. I like the way Oh Jun Taek and Im Ji Sub really worked together. And… sincerely, if they want to do more work with these two guys and reprising these characters, I will be there, seated, to see what they do next.

Nini

All right! And with that, we out! Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

#the eighth sense #korean bl #podcast #lgbtq #the conversation #ben and nini's conversations #spring series #season 3 #summer 2023 #on art #summer series #Spotify

57 notes · View notes