#Anti River Song

[badwolfrose34]

My analysis of River Song (not River friendly)

This essay has been brewing in my mind for awhile. If you don’t want to see anti River content, please keep scrolling. I understand that since Doctor Who is a work of fiction, fans have the right to differing interpretations and to invoking literary license. However, I do want fans who are like me and icked out by River to feel validated. What follows is a pretty unreserved criticism of the character and her relationship with the Doctor.

First, I’m going to break down River from a psychological perspective. Note that I am not a licensed psychologist, but I did graduate with a degree in general psychology. I’m also going to explain some of the many instances that she proves herself to be an incredibly toxic person.

River Song was raised to be a psychopath. That’s an indisputable fact mentioned clearly in the show. Psychopathy is known in the psychology world as Anti Social Personality Disorder (ASPD). ASPD can be managed, but it has no cure. Could it be argued that River sees an off screen therapist? Sure. However, ask yourself if you can see River Song going to therapy?

Not only that, but River has no ordinary case of ASPD. She wasn’t just raised in an abusive or unsafe household, she was cut off from society during her critical formational years. Most cases of ASPD involve people who grew up in challenging households, but they did have interaction with society at large. I don’t know of any case studies surrounding people with ASPD who were cut off from society in their formational years, but doing some research on “feral children” will allow you to read examples of what happens to children raised away from society.

The case I know the most about is that of Oxana Malaya. You can google her for more. She was quite literally raised by dogs. And she required intense inpatient treatment to unlearn her dog like mannerisms. Even then, she always had a level of intellectual impairment.

Because River was specifically raised to have ASPD, she learned language abilities and was socialized on how to BEHAVE like a person capable of love and empathy and friendship, but she never was capable of these things. She was raised to put on an act to be able to get to the doctor and kill him. She was never capable of anything more.

Even if River saw an off screen therapist, she was never institutionalized, as would’ve been required for her to truly function as a healthy person in any possible way. She couldn’t have just shrugged off her programming. Why did she save the Doctor and give up her regenerations? It couldn’t have been guilt or remorse, but she could’ve developed co morbid Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), which is a common disorder to co occur with ASPD. The narcissism would’ve created within her a need for supply. Supply meaning, a boost to the narcissists ego. Narcissists are not capable of genuine empathy and love, but they are capable of seeking supply in the form of impacting other people’s emotions. And what better source of supply for one’s ego than the last known member of one of the most powerful races known to the universe?

When River decided to undo her murder and save the Doctor, it starts off with a completely nonconsensual kiss. This is a pretty fitting start to a relationship that progresses into a forced marriage.

River then continues to force unwanted innuendos on the Doctor. Probably implying they were intimate just to make the Doctor feel obligated to be intimate with her eventually. This is despite Matt Smith confirming in an interview that his Doctor is asexual. He could be demi or grey sexual, I’ll admit that possibility, but River insists on forcing her hyper sexuality on him at any and all stages in his timeline knowing they wouldn’t be welcome. I should note that hyper sexuality can be a symptom of ASPD. It’s not cute or fun. If River was simply a sexually liberated character, she would not be forcing her innuendos on someone who does not want them. Especially not in the earlier parts of his timeline.

River flounces around feeling and acting entitled to the Doctor’s attention if and when she wants it. When she wants it, he’s expected to come running. Then she disappears when she wants to. Creating a masterfully manipulative cycle of hot and cold emotional abuse. When he loses Amy and Rory, she refuses to travel with him. Leaving him emotionally vulnerable and at her beck and call when and if she feels like using him.

Audio dramas are too numerous to declare as universal canon. I think most fans pick and choose which parts of the extended universe count as canon to them. But in the Dalek Universe series, River appears for one episode where she physically abuses the Doctor. She hits him so hard that he is crying out in pain. And then she gaslights him by telling him it was just a little tap. Now, it’s perfectly valid not to count this moment as canon. But it’s extremely consistent with River’s character and I am personally going to use it against her. Especially since I did see another post somewhere bring up the fact that she did the same thing to the fifth Doctor in another audio.

Finally, the worst part of River’s abuse is the forced marriage. The first time the Doctor meets her, she convinces him that he eventually marries her. But he clearly can’t stand her. He doesn’t want anything to do with her. But now he feels as though he’s obligated to marry her. At first he hopes it’s something that can be changed. Saying that time can be rewritten when Amy asks if he marries River. Right up until the forced wedding he tells River he doesn’t want to marry her. But because she convinced him he does marry her in the library, and because nothing else is convincing River to save the universe, he gives in and gives her what she wants. Assuming it’s the only way to keep the universe from falling apart.

Now, I do understand that anyone who loved the Doctor would not want to bring back a timeline where he died. But River was already willing to start considering it just because he agreed to marry her. Because she got what she wanted and because she got the satisfaction of seeing her manipulations succeed. The Doctor couldn’t even get close enough to her to tell her his plan at first, but she was willing to let him come close to her just because he married her. River valued marriage to the Doctor more than the Doctor’s life.

I know it’s commonly believed among River fans that he only kept his distance because he saw her die. But Remember he couldn’t stand her long before that. He never liked her until he thought he was supposed to. No doubt seeing her die cemented his desire to keep a distance from her. But the point is he did keep a distance from her. He never got close to her and he never wanted to. But River always refused to respect this. She saved him so he could belong to her. So he could be her property.

No doubt the Doctor did develop a level of care and responsibility for her. Because he was a person capable of empathy and remorse. And any target of this kind of emotional abuse will develop some sort of attachment. But he was never in love with her. River herself knew this, but she had to convince herself he never loved anyone. But he did. We know for a fact he was in love with Rose. We know he loved friends like Donna platonically. But he didn’t love River. Nor should he have.

[jacaela]

Rewatching Doctor Who again and I can say: Rose is the best companion, RTD is the best showrunner, Moffat, River and Clara are the worst things that could happen to Doctor Who.

[sublimewizardbread]

BIG BIG WARNING THIS WILL BE AN ANTI RIVER SONG POST IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THAT, JUST KEEP SCOLLING

So now that it's just us, let me begin because I have to rant.

————————————————————————

First of all I am sure that the Doctor doesn't love River Song one bit. I think all of the times where he makes sexual jokes with her, or anything like that he just kinda goes along with what she does. He doesn't mean it from the heart. (Both of them ;) )

I also have to say that they just have zero chemistry and their "romance" seems forced. The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason he is sad when he knows he will see her for the last time is because he knew all along what would happen to her, just as much as we as the audience knew and he didn't wanna lose a friend. And I'm being generous when I say he saw her as a friend. She is Amy's daughter, his best friends daughter, and he feels obligated to like her. Nothing more.

She is toxic, abusive and manipulative, if you wanna have a more in depth analysis of why, @badwolfrose34 made a great post about it.

River had to literally break her own wrist to get out of the weeping angels grasp. Let's be real here for a second, he would have smashed that thing into a million pieces if it was Rose instead, or Donna. But he didn't do it for River. I'm sure that's his way of rebelling against her toxicity, manipulation and abuse.

That he healed it afterwards? His conscience telling him it's the right thing to do, nothing more.

My conclusion;

The Doctor never loved River Song, and I would even go as far as to say he never loved anyone again after Rose. At least not in a romantic way.

[variousqueerthings]

genuinely may have to make a tag for river song, because I know I'm a minority in the way I feel about her writing and place in the story, and I really feel so very negatively about the character as functioning to be The Most Special Of The Show and how that diminishes every other character (noticeably not created by moffat).

even the episode order of her first appearance -- library right after the doctor's daughter, yes it feels like the latest in a long list of people the doctor sees die and that's how ten's narrative tends to go, but it's only truly affecting because she is going to be more special than any of the others the doctor has witnessed the deaths of, honest, and you can tell because of the screwdriver and because she "knows the doctor's true name" which is hinted at as being only for the most important person in the doctor's life, and the most important person is not just romantic, it's the person the doctor marries Spoilers Wait And See It's All So Romantic Honest

and they're going to get married and it will be sad, promise, so feel sad now, because this is deeper -- deeper than rose, deeper than martha, deeper than donna, deeper than jack, deeper than jenny, deeper than the master, deeper than any classic companion or nu!who companion... and it's deeper because it's been stated to be deeper for some reason or other, which is the same as writing a narrative I guess

[oswinpond]

re: your tags on that river post; going to be super mean and say most of eleven’s era is downright boring/unwatchable until the ponds and river leave and clara joins him 🫣

I lowkey agree... I mean I adore Amy and Rory and their relationship with Eleven despite some gripes, like the non-existen love triangle that just wouldn't quit. And s5 is decent, even if the ending is a mess and Amy's characterization is a bit spotty, but s6 is just awful IMO. With the exception of The Girl Who Waited and The God Complex, I'm never going to rewatch it. It's where River gets totally ruined and it drags down Amy and Rory in the process, and some parts of it are a bit disgusting and maybe that's a rant for later. And by ruining River, it makes me dread seeing her in s5, which takes that season down a notch in hindsight. By 7A, it feels like Moffat didn't know what to do with Amy and Rory anymore.

Then 7B is such a breath of fresh air. I don't get the hate for it at all; the only episode I consider weak is the Crimson Horror. Eleven is at his most enjoyable and least gimmicky (and best dressed lol), the episodes are generally really fun and some of them truly unique, the Impossible Girl mystery ties them all together nicely with a great ending that a lot of people misunderstand completely. It's like Moffat found his footing again, getting him ready for the spectacular s8-s9 Capaldi run.

It's saying something that 6/10 of my favourite Eleven episodes are in 7B.

[expectiations]

text posts: Doctor + River version [2/?]

time to cleanse my mind, body, soul, spirit, life, etc. of the takes I've been seeing of my blorbos on a daily basis lately. and it's still wednesday.

[sallysellsseashellssundays]

Disclaimer: I’m gonna go on a huge salty anti Moffat rant in this super long post

He’s claiming Moffat wrote the best RTD era episodes and from his own time as showrunner, but honestly...I’m personally just not seeing it, and I constantly feel like I’m missing out on some massive revelation when people claim he’s like THE best ever. Idk if maybe I set my expectations too high b/c all I saw online were people saying his era was the golden era, but I’ve been disappointed ever since I started S5.

S5 episodes I liked: The Eleventh Hour, The Vampires of Venice, Vincent and the Doctor, The Lodger

S6 episodes I liked: The Curse of the Black Spot, The Doctor’s Wife, Night Terrors, The God Complex

The only S7 episode I’ve liked (so far) is Dinosaurs on a Spaceship

With the exception of “The Eleventh Doctor” literally every episode I’ve liked has been written by someone else   😭     😭     😭 not just that but I’ve felt his own episodes have fallen flat and have actually been the weaker ones of the series’ that I’ve seen so far.

And even though I thought his RTD era episodes were good, even on first watch they weren’t my favorites, on rewatch I feel like I’ve liked them even less because they are essentially the basis of all his era’s themes that I heavily dislike.

The Doctor Dances has Jack (RTD’s invention) and the “Everybody lives” moment and it’s delivered brilliantly by Chris but that’s like the OG inspiration for characters constantly being killed off in Moffat’s era only to be brought back to life or have it be a fake death. There’s so many pointless “deaths” I’ve actually lost count.

Blink is one of those episodes that I thought had an interesting concept only for Moffat’s era to completely ruin the Weeping Angels IMO and it had the creepy stalker behavior that squicks me out: Sally’s friend is followed by that one guy, and in the Xmas special with the forest people Madge said she met her husband b/c he kept following her home, not to mention Eleven was being pretty creepy with Clara-- camping out in front of her home (!) when he’s a stranger to her and she’s made it relatively obvious she doesn’t want him around.

Speaking of squicks Girl in the Fireplace is the start of the “Child meets character and hits on/falls in love with character when grown up” theme: Reinette with Ten, Kazran with Abigail, Amy with Eleven, Clara with Eleven, and River with Eleven.

Which is very closely tied to...”Child meeting the Doctor and being so impacted by merely seeing him they become practically obsessed and/or it shifts their entire life”: Reinette- she is truly the OG ‘I have an imaginary friend’ character. Amy- enough said. Lorna- it’s implied she became a soldier ONLY b/c she wanted to meet him. River/Mels- enough said. Even those 3 children at the end of ‘Closing Time’ saw him ONCE and apparently reminisced as adults on the strange man they saw, one of them being able to tell he was happy and sad at the same time b/c of course children would remember that about a stranger /s.

Which is also leading to...”Moffat character being an expert on the Doctor (knowing him better than anyone else) when we don’t even see them interacting much on screen”: Reinette with Ten, Amy with Eleven, River with Ten AND Eleven.

And my all time favorite of course...”Character waiting for the Doctor”: Reinette waiting like a damsel in distress for her fireplace man has nothing on Amy being nicknamed “the girl who waited”. River- even worse she was waiting in prison. Bonus points for Rory waiting 2000 (!!!!) years for Amy.

The Library episodes had an interesting villain and DT delivered the hell out of some of those lines especially with the “look me up” scene but there’s the River not really dying thing (everybody lives ya’ll) plus us hearing a character through a device crying out for help/being scared: Ms. Evangelista ghosting (still trying to comprehend how that happened?), Amy’s nano recorder sequence when the Silence took her in S5 intro episode (how? how? it was supposed to record your voice, right? not function like a microphone??), Clara not knowing where she was (Bells of Saint John). Bonus: “Are you my mummy?” could have been the OG version really.

And don’t get me started on how he’s gone and changed everything from RTD’s era.   You have no idea how many S1-S4 clips I’ve seen on Youtube where people are going “oh the Doctor was lying here because that’s rule number one”. No. No, he wasn’t lying b/c this was filmed years before Moffat decided to make THAT rule number one. And I haven’t even watched the 50th anniversary special yet but I’ve been spoiled to so many things. I’ve seen comments on S1-S4 clips when the Doctor is referring to the Time War from Moffat fans who are going “this is crazy to watch b/c the Doctor was suppressing the War Doctor stuff” and it’s just super annoying that everything the Doctor was based on when he was Nine and Ten is written over completely.

I just...don’t get the appeal of him as a writer. And I’m skimming the surface here obviously, I haven’t even touched so many other million problematic things.

‘zero misogyny’ glad to see we’re ignoring every single female character written by this man…

[soulsuckker1]

Am I the only one who actually thought that scene with Daemon and his mother was just pure torture by Alys?! I am in no way a Daemon lover and stan, but the way I feel like people forget that Alyssa died when he was only 3 and he has no memory of her and Alys (in my opinion almost mocks him) says that he does not know how she looks like. Also I feel like Daemon didn’t know it was her until she said how he is her favorite son. His expression after the vision was shocking, scared even, he was mortified. I think people need to remember that this visions are created by Alys to torment him and the one with Alyssa is not some fucked up sex fantasy like some people try to make it out to be.

[jacaela]

Big finish made Rose dirty to make River Song look good. They just took Rose's image and made her into some boring ninny. RTD's Rose could have easily knocked River down as a character. She's a very interesting and simple character who wasn't born to travel in the tardis, who just got lucky and repaid the Doctor with her kindness and determination to save him at all costs, which had a huge impact on him, but the writers need to erase all of that to give River a chance to shine.

[danytheconqueror-jonthewhitewolf]

Was re-reading Bran's chapters in ADWD specifically for Bloodraven drama, and this line came up

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

And it got me thinking a crack headcanon that younger, Blackfyre era Bloodraven would use the phrase "the trees are calling me." as a way to get out of things.

Example.

He's been stuck in a small council meeting for the last two hours, listening to the master of coin and the master of ships arguing about the royal fleet budget.

He's running on two hours of sleep because he spent the entire night warging into horses, birds, and cats in the Riverlands, waiting for those thrice damned Brackens to talk about their plans of supporting the Blackfyer pretenders and committing treason.

So he abruptly stands up, fixes his cloak and hood, looks everyone in the eye, and says, "I must go my Lords. The trees are calling me." It's his bed. His bed is calling him.

And he just exists the room as dramatically as he can (which is a lot) while swooshing his cloak.

Nobody questions him because they're pretty used to the Targaryen theatrics, including Lord Bloodraven's gothic version.

-

Years later

Shiera: What do you mean you killed Aenys Blackfyer?! What do you mean you're going to the Wall?!

Brynden: [cupping his ear] Oh, what's that? Apologies, my love, the trees are calling me [speedwalks away]

Shiera: Wha- Brynden Rivers, get your pale, scrawny ass back here!

Brynden: [still speedwalking] I would my sweet love, but the trees-

Shiera: Really, the trees?! Again, with that?! You've been trying to use that one on me for decades!"

[Brynden starts running]

[Shiera starts running faster]

*ignore the fact that Shiera is kind of dead at this point*

[supermanliveson]

They hate real characters and love Mary Sues; not much to it.

ppl who hate rose but love river should be studied in labs

[silmarillaure]

Talking about "Elia nation we have to do better" in regards to people shipping Elia with Rhaegar or Arthur when you're over here shipping Alys with the man who took her as war prize and is essentially made to be his sex slave. Lets look in the mirror before you come over here trying to be morally righteous.

And before you try and act like Aemond was the victim in his relationship with Alys lets not forget that HE was the one that had all the power. I don't care that you ship Aemond and Alys but please don't try and act morally righteous. Call Rhaegar a "scummy cheating pedophile husband" but lets not forget Aemond is a man who took a woman as a war prize.

Alys was literally blowing off heads of people who called her child with Aemond a bastard.

Do you think a powerful witch like Alys couldn't blow his head off like she did to others? Moreover she seemed proud to be carrying his child.

I agree their relationship has very problematic elements however & I respect the opinions of people who hate them, but canonically there are implications Alys loved Aemond.

Meanwhile Rhaegar publicly humiliated Elia by crowning Lyanna "Queen of Love & Beauty" instead of her, his wife & the literal mother of his children. Then went and cheated on Elia with 15 year old Lyanna & took his mistress to go give birth in her homeland while she was trapped with his mad anti-Dornish father who publicly hated his daughter.

Arthur Dayne stuck by Rhaegar through all this, not Elia. He did not care about her at all.

...

Alysmond: Aemond kissing "his Alys" before he goes off to his death & Alys killing people who disrespect their son

>

Rhaelia: Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over Elia every step of the way & saying the name of his teenage mistress as he dies

[fatum679]

After reading the crazy crap that has been posted on r/HOTDGreens lately, I don't want to have anything to do with "TG stans" anymore.

These people need therapy, they are very cruel in their fantasies and very toxic to those who don't share their opinions, and I'm not talking about TB stans. I advise you to avoid this trash can.

I still root for the TG characters, but since the book and season 1 I do not support Aegon and Alys and now after season 2 I do not support Alicent.

TG is not only Aegon and Alicent.

[ghost-bison]

Doctor Who - Opinions

-the ninth doctor was the best. no one will ever be as good as he was

-same for donna, best companion, no one will ever compare

-imo 9th > 10th > 12th > 14th > 11th > 13th (dunno about 15th yet, haven't seen enough of him)

-donna > rose > jack > martha > nardole > bill > river/clara > rory > graham >>>>>>>>>>>>>> amy (idk about yaz and ryan I honestly dont see any distinctive personality traits apart from the fact that ryan is always complaining and generally unpleasant)

-ninerose >>>>>>>> tenrose

-clara is a cool character, it's just her plots that made people dislike her

-i don't get the obsession people have over thoschei. or the master in general and his relationship with the doctor? apart from missy and twelve ofc

-i could never warm up to amy, nor do i get how people can like her. she was abusive, not a girlboss. didn't deserve rory

-i have mixed feelings about river. like obviously, slay my goddess, but also, she's everything that's wrong with moffat's writing of women? she's actually dependant and praises the doctor and never makes a decision for herself? never questions the doctor? that's not ok

-idc how good moffat's storylines get, i'll choose rtd any day. i'll refer you to this post as to why.

-chibnall's era feels flat. i don't hate 13, she's adorable, but I used to laugh and cry several times an episode during the first ten series. now it's like twice a series if we're lucky.

-i liked the campy effects way better than the disney-style expensive cgi they now use to try and balance out mediocre writing (I'm sorry but wtf was that Space babies episode and how did they manage to make it even more cringe than the series one Slitheen two-parters?)

[badwolfrose34]

I agree with this. Because I think he probably knew the only way he’d marry River is if he’d HAVE to marry her in order to save lives. And he had no idea if whatever circumstances forced him to marry River would also put Rose at risk if he kept her. Imagine how painful it would’ve been for him to have been forced to choose between marrying River with Rose around and keeping Rose safe. I truly believe it was hard enough on the Doctor as is to have been forced to marry River. It would’ve been unimaginable to have been forced to marry her with Rose around.

He also wanted her to have Tentoo because Tentoo wouldn’t have the weight of outliving her and could be fully present with her, but I do agree with this theory being a factor in his decision. And I also agree with the time lord victorious theory because by that point he might’ve been suffering so much he questioning his selfless choice to leave Rose with Tentoo.

I need to put my thoughts out here again because I need to get this off my chest.

In a post I once said that the Doctor knew he couldn't keep Rose when they saw each other again because he already knew he was gonna marry River one day, and he knew that if he keeps her she will die or something far worse will happen to her because he would never marry another woman with Rose around. (I don't take any criticism on that take by the way)

BUT

I am also convinced that when he became time lord victorious, and before that lady (don't come for me I forgot her name) killed herself, he was testing to see if he could mess with fixed points in time because he was planning on getting Rose back no matter what.

[darklinaforever]

Frankly, people who are in mode : But why are you shocked that Daemon has incestuous problems linked to his mother ? It's a show about incest !!!

Its stupid.

Sorry but do your research. The Targaryens do not and have never had this type of incestuous relationship. This never happened and it's as disrespectful as ever to the source material.

Not to mention having the audacity to make Alyssa Targaryen, a cool and strong female character, appear for the first time on screen, through a sexual dream imposed on Daemon by Alys who rapes his mind.

Yes because I feel like people intentionally forget that these dreams / visions are not Daemon's will but Alys literally violating his mind. Daemon was 3 years old when his mother fucking died...

Without forgetting everything I've already said here :

This is not good writing, and no, in general there is no criticism against incest and the trauma that may be linked to it, in GRRM's work as I said here :

And here :