#And I was unknowingly in the fanbase of an abuser

[sadkachow]

Fuck Wilbur Soot. Support Shubble.

I've tried to get rid of as many reblogs that I've made of content regarding Wilbur (and I don't tend to interact with content regarding SMPs as much lately anyway), but as there's so many, I don't know if I'll be able to get rid of all of them. So just a notice if you happen to see any of those reblogs, I do NOT support him in any way, shape or form.

That said, I absolutely support Shubble. I've vaguely known about her for some time, and I plan on getting into her content more now (not just because of this situation, I've been interested in viewing her content for some time now).

I'm a bit emotionally all over the place right now, so that's probably all I'm gonna say on it. I don't know if I'll be interacting with any content regarding the situation other than this post, so yeah.

[pruneunfair]

Ari: a realistic overview of a mistress and manipulation.

I've talked a lot about how annoying the TOAWF is but now I'll go more into the actual story.

I have noticed the plot slowly getting to a slightly faster pace along with the dialog improving but the one thing I currently like about besides the realistic aspects of moving on from a toxic relationship is the mistress you'd normally expect to hate: Ari.

Ari is a 25 year old co worker who unknowingly became Mincheols mistress under the assumption that he was single. She is often portrayed as incredibly naive and even a tad childish in certain panels. Normally in manhwa mistresses are treated with even more contempt then the man, usually justifying this by making the mistress even worse then the cheater but Ari not only has no clue Micheol is still living with Hae soo but she's really not that terrible of a person outside of him, she's just an office worker with a crush and said crush never corrected her because he wanted to get petty revenge on the woman who was doing everything for him.

When she does find out the truth Ari is reasonably pissed off and leaves on the spot but a few chapters later she runs into Micheol again and starts to tell him off and he proceeds to basically tell her "yeah I'm a piece of shit alright, go find someone better because I'm just a loser" he guilt trips her and Ari runs back to him crying for him not to leave. A lot of readers took this as proof that Ari is a bitch who deserves to die and normally I would be upset that TOAWF would ruin the chance for women supporting women but with the context I don't think that's the narratives goal.

Ari believing Micheols shit and going back to him isn't supposed to be a way to convince the audience she's a bitch, it's a tragedy because Ari is going to become Micheols next victim of abuse and before you know it she's gonna end up just like Hae Soo if Micheol can't get back with his ex. That's what really sets Ari apart from other mistress characters in manhwa, instead of portraying her as another white lotus she is portrayed as an unknowing woman who was manipulated back into the cheaters arms after he guilt tripped her, Ari isn't evil she's a person with flaws like everyone else.

So far, I have hope that this story won't pit it's women against eachother for the sake of plot and it's just the toxic side of the fanbase misinterpreting the writing. (Please let this be the case 🙏)

[kitsu-katsu]

This is such a shit situation

Zoe's tweet points directly at it. Other testimonials and video evidence of bites point directly at it.

Ignorong it just because he was a comfort and inspiration to me for so long feels like being complicit, so I 100% understand everyone concerned about the very real possibility that it could be him because it's shit to feel like you've been supporting an abuser unknowingly, I don't think shitting on people for thinking on this is the right call. Using the fact that no name was brought up in the stream itself also isn't the best defense when if it was Him, saying the name itself would be social suicide. Fem presenting ccs and victims are already treated like shit all the time, do you think it would go better if number one white boy was explicitly accused of being an abuser? Especially in a space so parasocial and with him having such a large dedicated fanbase and fame so diversified? I just don't think shitting on people for drawing conclusions and taking distance is a hill to die on

However it might be, that was so brave of Shelby and I hope she can finally find some peace and comfort among friends.

I don't know why she deleted her VOD, but I can only hope the internet is not being so merciless to her

Ultimately, we should talk a lot more about the real message of the stream: Be wary about signs of abuse. She's sharing her story so we can all take caution. Nobody is above falling into an abusive relationship of some kind, no matter how smart and mature you think you are or if you literally don't do romantic or even platonic relationships, you can still be a victim of an abusive interpersonal relationship and not realize just how bad it's getting until something's gotta give. And the rest of the message that nobody is excempt from possobly being an abuser, even if they claim they love you, even if they reflect and assume responsibility later, someone you think you can trust can be doing real harm to you or someone else you love, and that's why we should be wary

All my support goes towards Shelby

[ruby-whistler]

(quicksandblock) hi! I just left you a giant wall-of-text response on your Dream post, and though I think it came across well enough, I just want to state my lack of hostile intent over here as well lol. I know stuff like this that people feel strongly about can get very tense so I just wanted to make doubly certain you know I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. it kind of sucks that I feel like I need to clarify that but that's fandom culture for you sometimes :P

also, I would love to talk to you about Dream characterization. I think I disagree with you on a lot of different points and I love his character, so I'm very interested in understanding your perspective!

hey, hello! found a c!dream enthusiast/enjoyer, that’s cool, hi! :]

[copied part i put in front of each reply, hence different capitalization]

Alright, so first as a quick disclaimer, I’m going to put a summary of the original post’s points, just to ensure that we’re on the same page;

The post does say:

- don’t dehumanize c!Dream because it continuously hurts people who relate to and/or sympathize with him, also dehumanization in general is an inherently wrong mindset

- don’t attack people who sympathize with him because he’s a victim of abuse besides other things

The post never says:

- you cannot hate c!Dream and not sympathizing with him is wrong

- the things c!Dream has done are to any degree excused

- don’t dehumanize c!Dream because he’s a good person

- people who dehumanize c!Dream are real life abuse apologists

If you read the post and didn’t get these points from it, i advise you to reread it as I made pretty much all of these abundantly clear.

[end of disclaimer]

i never said anyone could infringe on his human rights! i… literally never said that! i said “they ignore” when characters do it, but that was a run-on sentence, i get how that might’ve been easily misunderstood. but yes, he’s a fictional character, i’d never said people could actually hurt him or anything in that sense.

the thing is, i still find them saying they enjoy it… wrong? the people yelling in tommy’s chat for c!dream to hurt him more were freaking victim blaming pricks, and if what they did was the widespread fandom opinion it would be hurting actual people with trauma. i ask people to look at the c!dream situation with the same severity, because it’s actually happening and it’s highly disturbing, not just from principle, but because of what it leads to within the community.

sorry for comparing his situation to c!tommy, but narratively i believe the prison arc is a deliberate parallel to exile, and comparing his situation to someone they’ve not dehumanized seems to be the only way to knock sense into some people.

i am happy you don’t seem to be one of the people who dehumanize him. you’re not the target audience of this post - neither are abuse victims who project onto him. i know people who c!tommy reminds of their abuser (because of personality traits), or even c!quackity, that’s fine. they’re totally free to hate their respective character, of course, without being,, actually right about them. that being said, majority of this fandom is dehumanizing c!dream and being mad at people sympathizing with him “on behalf of the abuse victims”, not actual victims themselves, and by doing this they are unknowingly hurting other people rather than helping anything, and spreading misinformation as well as making a lot of fans in general uncomfortable. i believe this is something that needs to change in the community.

hating him is fine, but group-based dehumanization in my mind is not. if you go on twitter and search “c!dream” and see 100 people saying they wish the abuse victim you project onto is hurt more (this is not a twitter thing, c!dream tag is the same thing, a majority of the crit is untagged but it,, doesn’t really matter because even tagged hate riles up more people) that freaking sucks and is something that the community needs to work on, not shoved under the rug and pretend it wasn’t there because some people tag it.

“the abuse victims who are hurt by people saying they should be sympathetic towards Dream are in fact just as hurt as the abuse victims who relate to Dream and are hurt by people saying his evil.”

this is not wrong. it’s right actually, but i’m not talking about this fandom calling him evil/unable to be sympathized with/irredeemable. i mean, that’s hurtful dehumanization as well, but this community doesn’t “say he’s evil” it “says he deserves to keep being horribly abused and/or die”.

and… i wasn’t talking about/saying abuse victims should sympathize with him either? i’ve said like five times that people can hate him as much as they want, but dehumanization is another thing. it’s the majority of this community (this post wasn’t targeting abuse victims in the slightest) taking away his positive human qualities, hence believing he doesn’t deserve human rights, and turning him into some sort of punching bag or personification of evil, which i find deeply disturbing since he’s being related to by abuse victims, and also blatantly incorrect to the character.

so, you’d be right, if the situation was what you described. it… really isn’t. the dream smp fanbase isn’t populated by abuse victims in any corner. it’s two small groups, one of them hurt (undeservingly) by a few and the other one hurt (no more or less undeservingly) by a majority of the fandom without anyone batting an eye.

and this post isn’t even about abuse victims in the first place; it’s about dehumanization. while its impact plays a big role in why i wrote this, things like these being widespread in the fandom makes so many people uncomfortable or pressured not to sympathize with a recently made sympathetic character that they might (but could not) relate to. relating to him myself, i might not have a say in this, but my compassion in general made me switch over to the c!dream sympathetic people, not anyone in the community or projection.

the results i relayed here weren’t the only results of the survery. people mentioned pandora’s vault as their reasons for being dream apologists,, over and over and over again. a lot of them mentioned the fandom response specifically.

it’s making the fandom not only unsafe to a small group of traumatized people, but also fans in general, who are equally as important to feel comfortable. hell, the reason dream apologists are such a tight-knit community that accepts little to no outside feedback is because of the hatred that is endlessly nurtured outside, that makes people feel anxious or not safe just for sympathizing with a victim of abuse.

i myself find this a problem that people should attempt to change beyond using crit tags more. feel free to not agree with that, but a lot of affected people do.

i agree the disc finale was actually cathartic! well, that’s a lie, i used to hate c!dream’s guts before that but that was the very instance where i saw a person behind the mask and went “oh, this is a whole mess isn’t it”, but it was,, cathartic to a lot of other people that didn’t use to have intense empathy to inanimate objects as children djskdjsk (i was a weird kid and still am, don’t mind that)

do you know what is cathartic? when a dog terribly bites a child, gets kicked away and gets put in a cage. do you know what isn’t cathartic? …that dog getting repeatedly beaten, starved and abused while trapped in said cage. even in fiction, and i say that as someone who was terribly bitten by a dog.

i don’t mind fictional characters suffering - frick, angst is my jam, i’ll write a character dying over and over again and have fun, but people justify that or make fun of people who don’t by saying openly that they enjoy it,, because he’s done bad things.

here comes the double standard. the exile arc wasn’t cathartic just because tommy burnt down a house, because hell, that wasn’t fair retribution. same goes for dream.

there is a difference between enjoying dark media (something i do frequently and is something i like doing) and open dehumanization and often normalized harassment of people who don’t do the same or condemn that. that is something that in my mind shouldn’t be a mainstream thing in the community.

to be fair, people saying an abuse victim no longer being hurt is “bad writing” or “insensitive” as i’ve seen people say would probably piss me off, but i’m,, not going to harass them. maybe a passive-aggressive vague-post if enough big accounts do it, but i think that’s justified. feel free to disagree - i still respect abuse victims who wouldn’t like that, but people who just don’t want the writers to humanize a character they’ve dehumanized will probably grind my gears.

this community,, isn’t working like this. i wrote this because people are repeatedly being hurt by the community or feel bad in it because of widespread opinions and dehumanization of a character that is as of late written to be sympathetic to the audience. that’s not a disagreement, the people who are actually sympathetic are a minority in the fandom, which would be fine with me, if they weren’t constantly invalidated, triggered and harassed as a direct result of the dehumanization discussed in this post.

besides the fact that the principle of dehumanization applied to c!dream is wrong - and if people find themselves doing that, it’s good for them to find a way to realize that, such as this post, because projection =/= dehumanization, and this post is targeting one, not the other - this is why i wrote this post. i still believe my points are valid and important for this fandom to consider.

you know, we could talk about the characterization right now - but after this i’m going onto a two month long hiatus for the sole purpose of studying the character. i’m not joking, this is what i’m dedicating my summer to. since i’m also closing my asks because of this, i can write this down and @ you when i’m done? :D i’d love to talk about him but i’m going to have so much more evidence after this, so maybe we can put this off for a while if you don’t mind! of course feel free to continue the dehumanization debate in a string of reblogs since it’s pretty much a different debate entirely.

( @zrenia @caketexturepack just tagging some people who responded to your response and might be interested in the continuation of the debate - also curious anon i saw your two asks i was just busy djsjdks please don’t spam about people who replied to me, i have a bad memory but i write this stuff down, actually )

[mprjanedoe]

What is your ultimate goal here? The impression I get from your posts is that you would like the band to end. I know you didn't say that, but it read to me like you were trying not to say it in quite so blunt a way, merely to imply it. Cutting MPR out of all previous recordings & videos would gut their back catalogue and reconstructing them would be an impossible task. Cutting Steve from MKIII, TVC & Q would be less drastic, but still hard to put right. No judgement, just my observation.

With all due respect anon, I feel like you’ve missed the point if this is what you’ve gotten out of my posts, but regardless, I will reply to this in earnest. 

I feel like I’ve stated my goal in multiple ways in my posts, but I’ll make it explicitly clear here and again:

My goal is for everyone who knows who Michael is, to know what he has done. Because his victims deserve that, and the people who know him personally, professionally, and are fans of him deserve that so that they don’t hold an idealized image of him in their heads unknowingly. Whether or not they choose to support him or still enjoy his music or any projects related to him is their business, but they can’t make any informed decisions walking around with an innocent version of him in their heads. Everyone deserves to know. For their personal safety and their psychological safety.

This is not about Steam Powered Giraffe inherently in any way. The only reason this involves Steam Powered Giraffe is because SPG is the platform Michael gained and used for harm. 

I am not trying to end Steam Powered Giraffe. I am not trying to harm Steam Powered Giraffe or any of its members in any way. I am not wishing any harm or end or disbandment or lack of success on Steam Powered Giraffe. I really am not. I am not some petty troll trying to take down the band. My mention of removing Michael from previous SPG media is not to hurt SPG, it’s to deplatform and demonetize Michael because he used the platform he gained from Steam Powered Giraffe to harm others, and he shouldn’t be allowed to benefit from that anymore because he took advantage of it. And considering both Bunny and David expressed remorse and disgust in his involvement now knowing his past, I would think ultimately it would make everyone rest easier to not be haunted by traces of his involvement left in SPG’s art. 

Another thing, quite frankly I am not intricately familiar with Steam Powered Giraffe’s entire catalogue enough to know the burden of the task of removing Michael from it. When I said that he should be removed, I said this with the faith that while I assumed it would be a notably time consuming effort, I do know that David and Bunny are very talented musicians and vocalists and I figured any holes left by Michael’s contributions could be replaced with their own talent, not to mention Bryan could probably assist I imagine, and while we’re in the middle of a pandemic and live shows aren’t happening, now might be an ideal time to work on this task. Ultimately however this was a smaller detail in my mind compared to asking Steam Powered Giraffe and the Bennetts to amplify the victim’s voices and story. If SPG & the Bennetts chose to do that and were like “hey it would be impossible to recover our catalogue if we were to deconstruct all of Michael’s contributions and remove them” I would honestly understand and not feel too resentful about that. I would not see that as a notable failing or demand it be done in any aggressive way. I would understand. Again, that is ultimately so much smaller in importance than more openly admonishing the explicit details of what Michael did as well as amplifying the victims’ statements and making the fanbase aware of the harm caused. 

Going back to the statement about the assumption of implication of trying to end Steam Powered Giraffe. While Michael was a crucial member of the band for years, he was still part of the backing band and not even a full part of the performance as a character. Steam Powered Giraffe has moved through a bunch of band members and characters, Erin (I think that was her name? I don’t fully recall also I unfortunately do not remember her character name), The Jon, Hatchworth, etc - all were notable parts of the band and all moved on and the band went on. The Bennetts are the backbone of the band and have successfully kept it going even as it has evolved and changed for various reasons. I fully believe that if the Bennetts make a deliberate effort to do more to make things right in this regard in using the platform they still have from SPG that is the same platform Michael used for harm, to make sure their community and fanbase knows the explicit harm Michael did, and their commitment to supporting the victims by making it known and admonishing it, that if anything this would create an opportunity for greater respect, trust, and admiration for Steam Powered Giraffe. My tones that may seem harsh and disappointed are because I as a victim, and an advocate for other victims, do not feel truly supported or acknowledged by Steam Powered Giraffe and the Bennetts despite their offering to support Michael’s victims, and without this to me their platform remains tarnished. 

My mention for a hiatus to be in effect as well, mentioning ceasing promo temporarily and such, was also not in any way meant to harm Steam Powered Giraffe’s success. It was simply meant to give people time and room to access and process the information of what Michael has done. The internet is constantly brimming with information, we all know this, and because of this important things can get buried quickly and people so rarely go back in social media timelines to get caught up on what they missed. Much of how people consume is in the moment. So if SPG did post more about Michael but continued to post band promo and art prompts and such, the information could be quickly buried and be for naught. Which already to some degree happened when Bunny tweeted and then there were tweets from her about streams she was doing, tweets from SPG about new songs and art prompts. In later posts mentioning that something had gone awry with Michael and Steve, I saw fans already being like “what happened?” and being confused, because by that point, the other posts had been buried and it’s not always easy to just find things in peoples timelines again. So again, my suggestion was not meant to harm SPG or end them with that statement either, it was simply to give space and respect - a virtual moment of silence for 10 years of harm and abuse and someone taking advantage of their platform and art. 

This is about Michael. This is explicitly about Michael. Michael is no longer apart of Steam Powered Giraffe, but he was a part of their past, and he was apart of their platform, and all I’m ultimately asking is for Steam Powered Giraffe and the Bennetts to use the same platform that was used by Michael for harm to be used to make a gesture of making things right by giving space to victims and by respecting their own fanbase by not letting anyone go around with an idealized innocent version of Michael in their heads unknowingly. Everyone deserves that, and that does not inherently harm the band, and I don’t believe would inherently end the band, nor is that in any way my goal, and misses the point of my goal entirely. I want to be heard, I want all of Michael’s victims to be heard, and I want people to know what he’s done so that it is not a festering secret. There is a lot of psychological harm in knowing any abuser, let alone your (as in my/others) abuser, is being praised and admired by likely literal thousands of people, maybe even tens of thousands of people, many of whom I have faith in would not condone or be okay with his actions, all because they simply don’t know what happened. We all deserve for that not to be the case. 

[tomeandflickcorner]

Top 12 Worst OUAT moments

While I still like Once Upon a Time, I can admit that the show has had its share of moments that make your nose wrinkle at best and feel utter rage at the worst.  So this is my personal countdown of what I feel are the worst moments in the show.

12) Graham’s Lack of Recognition- Even though he was killed off only seven episodes into the show, Sheriff Graham still has a small but devoted fanbase.  So it’s quite vexing that he has virtually been forgotten within the show.  The fact that he was murdered by Regina was never addressed.  We didn’t even get a scene with Emma checking for his gravestone in the Underworld (even though Regina was allowed to get proper closure from Daniel.) Just the knowledge that Graham’s spirit was at peace would have gone a long way.  But we never got that.

11 The Canonization of Neal- Regardless of how you feel about this character, Neal was directly responsible for Emma’s inability to trust and fear of love. His actions subjected her to the traumatic experience of being an underage pregnant teenager behind bars.  The mental scars from that left Emma feeling as if she wasn’t worthy of love, and it would be ten years before those scars started to heal.  And contrary to what Neal may have claimed, the reasons for his actions had more to do with his desire to continue avoiding his estranged father than helping Emma break the curse over Storybrooke.  (The fact that it was later revealed that Neal was actually looking for a way to destroy magic proved he didn’t care about breaking the curse.)  Even his death was the result of his own self-centered nature, choosing to put his own desires over the safety of practically everyone in the Enchanted Forest.  And yet, despite this, the show’s narrative began to portray him as some great fallen hero.  They even named Snow and Charming’s newborn son after him.  While this was obviously done to appease the avid Rumpelstiltskin fans who probably didn’t appreciate the storyline their fave’s son ended up getting, it made little sense in the overall narrative. 

10) The Relationship Between Emma and Snow- This is a relationship that really went downhill.  For a while, there was true potential here.  They actively interacted with one another, and when Emma was feeling upset about something, Snow would at least try to be there for her daughter.  But after the birth of Baby Neal, it was as if their relationship hit a dead end.  All of a sudden, all of Snow’s inspirational speeches and consolations were reserved for Regina.  Whenever Emma was in need of her mother, Snow seemed to be ignoring her completely, even to the point when she would actually send someone else to talk to her instead.  The only time when Snow was shown interacting with Emma was when she was scolding her for not coming to her mother with her troubles.  Mama Snow, I’m sorry, but you really are the worst mother around.

9) Belle’s Death- Even if you’re a low-key Rumbelle shipper, I’m pretty sure it goes without saying that the way Belle went out was a discredit to her overall character.  Throughout the show, Belle was portrayed as a young woman who craved adventure, with a desire to see the world.  But in the end, we’re told that her ‘happy ending’ was to live a cozy non-adventurous life with her hubby, in a place where she’d never see her father or any of her friends ever again.  What’s more, she even chooses to live out the rest of her life in a realm that’s essentially on fast-forward, despite the fact that she has a living son out there, who might end up going on to become a respected professor, possibly fall in love and get married himself, and maybe even have kids of his own.  Does anyone out there actually believe that Belle would be perfectly fine with not being around to see all of that?  Would she really be okay with not being there to meet her future grandchildren?  Sorry, show, but I refuse to believe that.

8) Regina’s ‘Redemption’ arc- Regina is one character that I have a love-hate relationship with.  There are times when I can tell she is trying to become a better person.  And during those times, I actually start to like her.  But whenever something doesn’t go her way, such as when Cora framed Regina for the murder of Archie and everyone believed it, or when her week-long relationship with Robin came to an end with the appearance of Not-Marian, Regina would immediately throw a tantrum and even start to relapse.  Moments like that made Regina’s Redemption arc look less like a true redemption arc and more like her saying ‘okay, I did a good deed, and I haven’t killed anyone in a while, so where’s my cookie?’  The fact that Regina would also go around yelling at Zelena for wasting all of her second chances and stating that she couldn’t ever forgive her sister just makes Regina’s redemption even more laughable, considering how many chances Regina got.

7) The Split Queen Story arc- While this is partially related to #8, it was stupid enough to warrant its own slot.  At the end of S5, Regina, in an attempt to rid herself of her murderous impulses, tries to sever away her ‘evil’ side, a la Jekyll and Hyde. What follows is a rather painful story arc in which everyone starts to act as if the Evil Queen was a completely separate person from Regina, as if Regina was not responsible for anything she did as the Evil Queen.  This plotline was made even worse by Lana’s painful attempt at portraying the Evil Queen once again.  Instead of coming across as the fearsome woman who wouldn’t hesitate to order the massacre of an entire village because of her misplaced hatred of Snow White, she came off more like a cheesy one-note bad guy from a B-list movie.  And in the end, instead of Regina accepting the fact that she and the Evil Queen were one and the same, we got this warped moral of how it’s important to love yourself.  All in all, we’re left wondering what the point of this story arc even was

6) Belle Taking Rumpelstiltskin Back- While I wasn’t necessarily opposed to a happy ending for Rumbelle, I did expect it to be earned.  And after everything that happened in 6A, I’m sorry to say that it wasn’t.  Throughout the Patchwork arc, Rumpelstiltskin treatment of Belle was nothing short of abusive.  Belle had reached the point when she’d had enough of his behavior and had practically placed a restraining order on him.  But Gold proceeds to blatantly ignore her wishes, forcibly trapping her on the Jolly Roger when she refused to accept his help (and practically calling her an object in the process), slapped a magical tracking device on her when she was considering leaving town, and made it clear that he wanted to forcibly tamper with her unborn son’s fate.  She was so scared for her baby’s future, she actually sent her son away to safety mere minutes after he was born.  (And this is besides the fact that the baby was arguably conceived via rape, as Belle had no clue that Rumpelstiltskin had taken back the power of the Dark One at the time, and probably wouldn’t have slept with him had she known.)  And yet, despite all of this, Belle still ends up taking him back when the Black Fairy abducts Baby Gideon, even though there’s nothing substantial within the narrative to suggest Rumpelstiltskin was remorseful of how he treated Belle.  This is made even more disturbing by the fact that this implies that Rumpelstiltskin was right in saying that Belle would come back to him out of necessity.  Is this really the message the writers wanted to convey?  That it’s healthy for a woman to stay with a man because she needs him?

5) Robin’s Death- Why was this even necessary?  Robin’s death was the final insult in the painful misuse of his character.  In the beginning, there was a lot of potential to his character.  This was the famous outlaw who robbed from the rich to give to the poor.  And the fact that they were setting up a potential romance between him and Regina made for an interesting element.  But from S4 onward, Robin was woefully underutilized.  He became little more than an extension of Regina, and rarely got his own storyline.  Even when it was revealed that he’d actually been living with Zelena instead of his late wife, Marian, the fallout from this revelation was more about Regina than of how Robin felt about the whole matter.  And when he was ultimately killed off, the narrative once again focused on Regina’s feelings instead of the fact that Robin had died and left behind a small son and newborn daughter.  All I can say is, Rest in Peace, Robin.  We hardly knew you.

4) Zelena’s Return- Why did she come back?  While I won’t deny that Bex did a terrific job at portraying Regina’s jealous half-sister, and that she can be a delightfully devious villain, the method they used to bring her back was just so insulting.  Sure, lets retcon the fact that Emma unknowingly saved Robin’s wife, Marian, before she could be killed by Regina in the past.  Let’s completely ignore the possible fallout Regina could have faced by being responsible for her death in the original timeline and how that might have affected her relationship with Robin.  Let’s just have it so Marian died mere hours after Emma saved her.  This time by Zelena’s hand.  And lets have it so the Marian that made it to Storybrooke was Zelena in disguise the whole time.  The fact that Marian was portrayed by a colored actress kinda makes her treatment a bit more insulting.  Not to mention it brought about an asinine rape baby subplot that I can’t imagine anyone wanted or asked for.

3) Golden Queen- Just...Golden Queen.  You all know what I’m talking about, so I don’t have to describe it.  Who thought this was a good idea?  I refuse to believe that ANY focus group wanted to see this on our screens.  So, why did A&E decide to include this in the final script?  Did they just want to gross us out?

2) Milah’s Fate- I don’t care if you didn’t particularly like Milah.  The way her storyline ended was horrendous.  I won’t defend how she walked out on her son without a word, but at the same time, she was a deeply depressed woman trapped in a loveless marriage to a man who had proven he didn’t care about her feelings or autonomy.  If she stayed where she was, it’s entirely possible that she would have grown to resent her son.  And it’s not as if she could have taken the boy with her.  A pirate ship is no place for a boy that young.  All things considered, leaving him under the care of his father was the safest option.  To top it all off, it was shown repeatedly that Milah sincerely regretted how she handled things with Boy Baelfire.  She even spent hundreds of years in the Underworld because of how guilty she felt.  All Milah wanted to do was to apologize to her son for what she did.  But instead, she is thrown into the River of Lost Souls.  And by the man who murdered her, no less.  What’s even worse is that he got away with this, with the Nevengers never finding out that Rumpelstiltskin had been the one who condemned her to eternal misery, with no known way to save her.  For a show that’s supposed to be about hope and happy endings, this decision was truly anger inducing.  Especially when Cora, who was a far worse mother than Milah was, was allowed to cross over.  Why was Cora granted a reprieve when Milah wasn’t?  This is something that I will be bitter about until the day I die.

1) The Creation of the Wish World- I think we can all agree that this was one painful episode to sit through.  This episode was presented to us with the promise that it would show us how things would have turned out if Regina’s curse was never cast. Instead, we got a cluttered mess of continuity error (how could Neal be around to father Henry if he was supposed to have been in Neverland/The Land Without Magic?) Regina getting away with murdering a version of Snow and Charming by claiming they weren’t real, even though it was proven that Wish! Robin and Wish! Killian were real, and, to make it worse, the utter assassination of Emma Swan’s character.  This episode told us that, if Emma had been raised by her parents, she would have ended up as a weak, spineless simpleton who couldn’t stand up for herself.  What kind of message is that?  That if you grow up with loving parents and have a happy life, you’ll turn out to be weak?  Way to contradict the message that Love is Strength, which is what Emma’s story was all about.

Do you agree with my list?  Is there something you think I should have included?  Please, feel free to discus your thoughts.

[ramajmedia]

10 Jokes From Cheers That Have Already Aged Poorly | ScreenRant

The contemporary culture of the 1980s was a whole world of difference away from the 2010s, and Cheers feels incredibly dated when you consider a lot of its jokes. While the series is ageless in its legacy, the younger fanbase of today will definitely have a hard time swallowing some of Cheers’ pills.

RELATED: 10 Things That Make No Sense In Cheers

Mainly, it’s because people have become more sensitive to certain things nowadays, and without the context of living in the 1980s or being aware of the culture at the time, these 10 jokes have aged very poorly indeed. The important thing to remember, though, is to have an open mind and accept that today’s way of thinking is a lot different from before.

10 "Don't You Ever Hit Me Again!"

It should go without saying that a man laying his hands on a woman is very bad, let alone having a main character from a TV show slap a woman in the face. But in the second season finale of Cheers, this is exactly what we saw.

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Here, Diane and Sam had a huge fight, one that spilled to insane levels of physicality. Diane would instigate the violence when she slapped Sam for being too mean with his words; to her immense surprise, Sam slapped her back. The two would then go back and forth with hitting one another, which was a sequence that was meant to be funny because of how childish they looked, but today it just makes us incredibly uncomfortable.

9 Rebecca Locked In The Vent By Carla

To be fair, even in the date that this episode aired this shouldn’t have been very funny. Carla was famous for being the meanest character on TV, but she crossed the line between funny and downright cruel.

In this episode, Rebecca opened up a vent in Cheers for repairs and headed inside to see what the problem was. Carla thought she’d be funny and lock Rebecca inside the confined space. Poor Rebecca was trapped in there for so many hours that she was still stuck by the episode’s end, and none of the other characters did anything to help her. In fact, Carla had even meaner things to say while she had Rebecca locked up.

8 "Desperate Times Call For Desperate Measures."

Funnily enough, this was meant to be a progressive episode back in 1982, where we saw the topic of orientation come up. Looking back now, Norm, Cliff, and the rest of the patrons look like complete jerks because they felt insulted that men who weren’t interested in women were in the bar.

They assumed two effeminate men to be their targets and drove them out, only to find out the men they were after had been among them the whole time. It was meant to showcase how ignorant Norm and the others were, but nowadays the jokes come across as more mean-spirited than anything else.

7 "I'm Going To Steal Your Girlfriend."

Henri was Woody’s girlfriend’s friend from France, whose real motive was to steal her from Woody to leech off her riches. As it happened, Henri arrived at Cheers along with Kelly, where he openly told Woody that he would steal Kelly from him. 

RELATED: 10 Things You Didn’t Know About That ‘80s Show

Perhaps it was funnier back then that a guy would tell the boyfriend how he was planning on stealing the girl, but today it comes across as Kelly being very insensitive toward how uncomfortable Woody was. Henri would even be very touchy-feely with Kelly in front of Woody, but this was still supposed to be something funny rather than inappropriate.

6 "And Then, I Turned 11."

In this scene, the guys were clowning Rebecca for being a daddy’s girl. Rebecca’s truth came out in that she was still paid a stipend from her father despite being a woman in her 30s, and the gang didn’t let her hear the end of it. Frasier in particular feigned being on her side, only to tell her he was paid a stipend as well, until he turned 11.

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Sure, Rebecca was irresponsible for not taking control of her finances, but since today's audiences are likely to be more sympathetic to financial woes, they’ll likely take Rebecca’s side for wanting her father to support her financially.

5 "Well, You Never Hurt Me, Did You!?"

Another instance of Cheers broaching a little too close into male abuse territory, we're pretty certain audiences today won’t be very sympathetic to Frasier’s anger toward Diane. He was dumped by her way back in Season 3, but was still holding a grudge in the Season 11 finale. 

RELATED: Big Bang Theory: 10 Times Amy And Penny Were Friendship Goals

When he saw Diane again, Frasier initially attempted to be cool, but then unknowingly started to hurt Diane by squeezing her shoulders too tight. Of course, Frasier's actions weren't intended to cause physical harm, but it's still something that probably wouldn't (and shouldn't) be included in a modern American sitcom.

4 "...There Is No Other Part."

Sam’s characterization seemed to be about how good-looking he was and how much he liked to be among the ladies, apart from which he didn’t have anything else; Sam realized this as well.

When Woody was disappointed that Sam had let him down, he claimed he had idolized the latter except for his two most well-known traits, leading to Sam quipping there were no other parts to him. Today, people would just condemn Sam for his debauchery, and call him shallow for being so superficial. He definitely was just that, but back then it was passed off as charmingly funny.

3 "Hunting For Snipe."

The gang at the bar liked to play rough, there’s no question about that. And when Frasier tried to integrate among them, they went extra mean. Taking Frasier out in the woods, they had him “hunt snipe," (which doesn't exist), and then left him out there. 

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It was a simple practical joke at the time, but that was what bullies called it back then. Clearly, Frasier wasn’t someone equipped to survive outdoors, and he had to fight his way back to the bar where he found the others laughing at his gullibility. Fortunately, bullying isn’t thought to be as funny as it was back then.

2 "It Is Not In A Man's Nature To Sit Alone And Be Passive And Docile."

Yikes. This one's so bad we can't make a clear argument for including the full quote, which is incredibly misogynistic. Here, Cliff would argue with Diane that women were the ones meant to stay at home and indulge themselves in stuff like culture and nurturing, while men were meant to be hunters. 

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The irony was that Cliff was clearly in the wrong, as Norm seated next to him refused to move an inch because he was lazy. However, anybody viewing the episode for the first time today would be inclined to overlook the punchline and latch onto Cliff’s ignorance of women, which we’ll agree was very striking.

1 "Goodnight Everyone!"

There’s practical jokes and bullying, but a whole new word has to be made for Carla’s cruel treatment of Cliff. There were times where she made sure Cliff was physically in pain, and this one was the worst of the lot.

Here, Cliff mistakenly set an attack dog onto himself by using its attack word; Carla called its owner to ask how to get the dog to calm down. When she was told the word, instead of rescuing Cliff (who was being chewed out by the sounds of his anguishes of pain), she bid everyone goodnight and left the bar so that Cliff would possibly get mauled to death. Nothing about this comes across as funny at all, instead we’re left hoping someone would throw Carla in jail for what she did.

NEXT: Supernatural: 10 Times The Show Broke Our Hearts

source https://screenrant.com/10-jokes-cheers-already-aged-poorly/