#AND GOD MUTINY WHAT A SONG

[hellishgayliath]

Couldn't have asked for a more better 4th of july than this, thank you Mr. Jalapeno you're amazing.

[bringbackmaes14]

My favorite moments from the Epic: The Musical Ithaca Saga Premiere Livestream (in no particular order):

Armando and Jay doing the macarena during Luck Runs Out

Also during Luck Runs Out when Odysseus says "let me pull you aside then I need to talk to you in private" and Jay pulled Armando to the side of the room in a very silly flirty manner and then immediately pretended to smack the shit out of him

Talya and Jay swapping lip sync roles during There Are Other Ways

Troy standing on the table and twerking during Dangerous

Everyone pretending to row during Full Speed Ahead

Luke acting like the cyclops during the cyclops saga, and reprising the role during Circe and Odysseus' fight in Done For

Mason and Jay ballroom dancing during No Longer You

Jay and his mom swaying together during Anticlea's part of The Underworld

Jay's dad messing up lip syncing Hephaestus' part of God Games and laughing about it

During Legendary, Mico is clearly on screen lip syncing as Telemachus but Jay keeps typing in chat "Where's Mico?" And "Mico it sucks we couldn't get you here"

Jay trying to hold Mico in his lap during Just A Man

Steven Rodriguez' cast message between the showing of the Vengeance Saga and the Ithaca Saga

Jay wearing ten billion pairs of glasses during Just a Man and then later in chat saying that whenever he wears glasses that means he's being serious (so obviously we can interpret that Just a Man was super serious)

During Get In the Water Mason kept trying to hand Jay a tiny fork clearly trying to mime Poseidon's trident but then it also seemed like he hadn't actually watched the Six Hundred Strike animatic before because he never ended up handing the fork to Jay and his jaw dropped when Odysseus started stabbing Poseidon, at which point Jay picked up Mason's tiny fork off the table and mimed stabbing Poseidon, much to Mason's amusement

KJ jumping around on and crawling over the couch attacking random people with pillows during Scylla

So many viewers spamming the chat with pancake emojis during Survive

Mason pretending to turn into a pig during Puppeteer

Luke pretending to be the magical boar during Warrior of the Mind

JP pretending to be the cow during Mutiny

The grocery bag that they filled with air and tied up and threw around as "the wind bag" during Keep Your Friends Close and Dangerous

Jay and Luke actually pretending to game as Telemachus and Antinous during Little Wolf with what seemed to be switch controllers

The cast using one of said switch controllers as a stand in for the baby in The Horse and The Infant

Everyone applauding at the end of Charybdis when Odysseus is singing "Penelope" but then going "wait wait" and freaking out when Odysseus starts going backwards. Then Get in the Water started and Poseidon said "There you are. Coward." and Jay yelled "IT'S STEVEN!!!!!" and everyone cheered

Jay just absolutely tackling Mico in a hug at the climax of I Can't Help But Wonder

The entire cast trying to be excited and hyped at the end of the stream while saying goodbye/thank you but all of them had been crying/sobbing through the last two beautiful songs so they all just were wiping their eyes and noses and some of them just could not pull it together enough to look at the camera (looking at Luke Holt and Earle Gresham Jr. affectionately) so it was a very emotional excited goodbye

[gigizetz]

Hi gigi!! I hope your day is going well :) I had a few questions about the creative process with Mr Jalapeño, if you don't mind answering or if you're at liberty to answer

First, how early does Jorgy Gorgy approach you with the request to do an animatic for the livestream? Wisdom Saga came so soon after the Thunder Saga, but you still did pretty lengthy animatics for both those sagas AND the Sufferring and Scylla animatics on your own channel (like, seriously, are you God?? How do you crank out these high quality animatics so fast??)

Secondly, we've seen Jay's reference videos that he sends to artists, but I was wondering if you get any creative liberty in this process, too? I'm asking because I found it strange/funny how the reaction of Calypso hearing about Ody's wife was more "oh my god no what the heck he's taken" rather than "oh I'm gonna kill this woman" which was prevalent both in the original demo of the song and the animatics that sprouted from it! Was this change a direction you took, or was it one Jorgy wanted?

Sorry for the long ask, and I completely understand if you cant/don't want to answer some of these questions! Hope you have a lovely day tho :D

it's totally fine to ask that :D

for both animatics he approached me roughly 20ish days before the release of the songs (I think with Mutiny he might've reach out earlier but I can't remember), and we quickly go through which parts of the saga I'll be able to work on within that time frame.

And I do have a lot of creative liberty in those works. This specific Calypso moment was all Jay though!

[epicthemusicalstuff]

Epic The Musical!! Does the song have an E on Spotify edition?

Hello! Welcome to me going through the list of Epic songs, and telling you if they have an E for Explicit!

The Horse And The Infant: No

Just A Man: No

Full Speed Ahead: No

Open Arms: No

Warrior Of The Mind: No

Polyphemus: No

Survive: No

Remember Them: Yes

My Goodbye: No

Storm: No

Luck Runs Out: No

Keep Your Friends Close: No

Ruthlessness: No

Puppeteer: No

Wouldn’t You Like: No

Done For: No

There Are Other Ways: No

The Underworld: No

No Longer You: No

Monster: No

Suffering: No

Different Beast: No

Scylla: Yes

Mutiny: Yes

Thunder Bringer: No

Legendary: No

Little Wolf: No

We’ll Be Fine: No

Love In Paradise: No

God Games: No

I’m Not Sorry For Loving You: No

Dangerous: No

Charybdis: No

Get In The Water: No

Six Hundred Strike: No (crazy right? I’m shocked too)

The Challenge: No

Hold Them Down: No (kinda wild)

Odysseus: No

I Can’t Help But Wonder: No

Summary: Only Remember Them, Scylla, and Mutiny have that. Am I shocked? Kinda. I’m also curious what constitutes the rating in the first place?

[toxinoire]

The craziest thing about Epic is that it didn't need Ody's canon to The Odyssey SA to show that Odysseus has lost his own autonomy anyway.

He embraces his side as "the monster" until you question, is he really? Or did he really have no choice?

Looking at the line of "I am not your kind and gentle husband" makes me think back to Just A Man.

It is shown that Odysseus really hates being soldier. He had no choice but to kill the infant because Zeus told him to. And Troy? If we look at The Iliad, he didn't want to go to war from the beginning. And this is the first real time he loses a part of him; his kindness makes him argue with Zeus, his gentleness makes him willing to raise the boy. But he couldn't defy the King of The Gods.

And then Polites tries to bring those parts back, even unintentionally. But Athena tries to tell him he can't do that--his mentor contributes to losing those aspects of himself.

Next is when Polites dies, and well, that's self explanatory.

Another is when Polyphemus kills some of his crew. Part of his identity is being a captain, a king. He knows how to lead people. But then shit went down and he slowly fails to be captain anymore.

And then Poseidon adds onto making Odysseus lose that side of himself more by killing majority of his men.

Circe's Island made him hold onto the scraps of being a captain he has left in him. But even so, Circe tried to lust him so she could kill him, which itself is bad. Though Circe lets them go, even though Ody was unaware of Circe almost killing him, that itself made him hold onto the husband part of him more. That's what got him out of it.

So the Underworld. He hears the screams of his men, and their last thoughts blaming him. Their last thoughts being "Captain, why would you let the Cyclops live when ruthlessness is mercy-" is them blaming Odysseus for their deaths. This makes him lose more of his captain side.

Then he sees Polites, and then his mom. He breaks down again after we last saw him do so in Troy.

And then Tiresias shows him his fate, which he misinterprets. Why? We all know the man is him, but why did he not think it was him? He was holding onto the husband part of him the most, so much that it blinded him.

So here comes song 20.

And in the Thunder Saga, we see him lose more of his gentleness and kindness. He's also barely holding onto being a captain by a thread.

Scylla is the entire explanation.

Mutiny is the last bit of that thread and it finally snapped during Thunder Bringer. He lost his leadership, he's no longer a captain. And quite frankly, it traumatized him so much already.

Calypso's island, though this version makes Calypso naive, she, like Jorge said, is ruthless in her own way. He was trapped. He was probably still holding onto the husband aspect of him subconsciously, as to why he never slept with her. But it was buried pretty deep.

"All I hear are screams" Who's to say he hadn't been hearing this for the past seven years, but that day he was so close to losing to those screams. He lost his side of being a captain, he lost his side of being a friend, he lost his side of being gentle and kind.

So his side as a husband is all he could hold onto anymore in The Vengeance Saga. During Full Speed Ahead, we see his king aspect through the lyric "Ithaca's waiting, my kingdom is waiting" but in Dangerous, he has no more king aspect. It's just him wanting to be home to his family at this point.

And then he loses himself more in Six Hundred Strike, as he lost his last bits of mercy when Poseidon offered him none. All that's left of him is wanting to be with Penelope, and his hopes of finally seeing his son.

The suitors' plans had been horrible. But honestly, he would have killed them anway even if they hadn't planned shit. He lost his patience for threats, he lost his mercy, his gentlessness. He is still cunning, but he's gone. Odysseus, King of Ithaca, is gone. "Old king" He's still king by title, but can he really manage a whole kingdom anymore? Like he used to since he was thirteen?

If it had not been for Penelope, he never would have embraced that he, no matter what, is still just a man, no matter how monstrous. But he lost so much of himself, and he knows. He lost his own autonomy, he lost what he knew of himself.

Finally holding his son and his wife yelling at him made him understand that he's still human, but post Epic/The Odyssey the man is already so traumatized, that he most likely forgot so many things of himself. He lost what made him Odysseus, King of Ithaca, which is a BIG part of him. Odysseus, husband of Penelope, father lof Telemachus, is all that's left of him. While those may be the most important parts of him, he's still traumatized, and only knows of himself as a monster now.

He is, quite frankly, no longer him.

[gingermintpepper]

Okay, let's finally talk about EPIC's Apollo

I feel very compelled to say, first of all, that I do not dislike Epic. In fact, I am very fond of Epic and have been following its production and status very eagerly! I attend all the launch streams, I watch all of Herrans' update videos; I am, at the end of the day, a fan and I want it to be known that my words are spoken out of love and passion as much as they are spoken from a place of critique.

So really, what my problem with Epic's Apollo?

In the briefest possible terms; the choice to have Apollo be defined by his musical aspect in God Games is thematically strange. And not in the 'oh well in the Odyssey, Apollo was important to Odysseus and his family so it's weird that that wasn't kept in Epic' strange, strange in the sense that Odysseus' character arc since My Goodbye has been getting more and more obviously Apollonian and so it is positively bizarre that when we get to meet Apollo, the god seems entirely disinterested in him and his affairs. So much so that he is not even defined by any station that would indicate that he has been watching over and protecting Odysseus and his family.

What do I mean by 'Odysseus has been following an Apollonian arc'? I'm so glad you asked!

Remember Them is the last song in which Odysseus explicitly uses his sword until Mutiny where he must use it to defend himself against Eurylochus' blade. He uses it to help enact the plan to conquer Polyphemus and, due to Polites dying in that battle, Polites who wished for Odysseus to put the blade down entirely and embrace a post-war life, Odysseus also retires his sword. This is an action that symbolically separates him from Athena - and the image of Odysseus as a traditional warrior set for him in Horse and Infant - as much as My Goodbye physically separates him from the goddess and her war-ways - from this point onwards, Odysseus will no longer be leaning on Athena's wisdom or methods to solve his problems. Likewise, he will no longer be able to rely on her protection.

Odysseus thusly solves most of his upcoming problems through diplomacy and avoidance. He approaches Aeolus - a strange and ambiguous god (both in gender and in motivation) and appeals to them for help. Circe too, he approaches not with wishes to conquer or for revenge, but for the safe returning of his men and an alternate way forward. In all of these scenarios, there is some Apollonian element which is subtly interweaved alongside the influence of other gods; it is with a bow and arrows that Polyphemus' sheep is slain (and thus it is this Apollonian element which is at the root of Odysseus' spat with Poseidon), it is a vision of Penelope that warns Odysseus that his men are about to open Aeolus' wind-bag, Circe's peace offering to Odysseus is to refer him to a prophet of Apollo who has since died.

In this way, Apollo is walking alongside Odysseus for all of his journey after Athena departs - even in the Underworld, he is guiding him. It is Tiresias' proclamation that is the last straw for Odysseus, it is by the power of a mouthpiece of Apollo that Odysseus decides to embrace his ruthlessness. It is with the bow and arrow that Odysseus subdues the siren who sought to trick him, likewise, Odysseus does not attempt to undermine or escape the fate of paying Scylla's passage price - he knows of the doom about to befall the six men and quite unlike the rest of the journey until this point, he does not fight against it. This all comes to a head on Thrinacia where it is a blade which sacrifices the sun god's cow and brings destruction upon the crew once more.

My point with all of this is that when I heard the teasers for God Games years ago, it made perfect sense to me that Apollo would be Round One - he is not Odysseus' adversary and has no reason to oppose Athena's wish to free him. From other teasers about what will happen in the climax of Epic, Apollo will still be walking alongside Odysseus - it is Apollo's bow that Penelope will give the suitors to string. Likewise, it is Apollo's bow that will prove Odysseus' legitimacy and identity. That bow will be the power by which Odysseus hunts his adversaries and cleans out his palace - it is Apollo who is the avatar of Odysseus' ruthlessness, not Athena.

So tell me, truly, what was the point of having Apollo raise a non-argument in God Games? Why have him appear unconcerned, aloof and slightly oblivious? Why have him appear in his capacity as the Lord of Music at all?? And if the intention was never to make Apollo an active player in Odysseus' life like he was in the Odyssey, why keep Odysseus as a primary archer?

The answer of course is that Apollo is inextricable from the fabric of the Odyssey - his influence and favour exudes from Odysseus just as much as Athena's. In Athena's ten year sulk, it would have been Apollo who kept Telemachus and Penelope safe. It would have been Apollo protecting Odysseus from Poseidon's gaze as he travelled the seas (according to the Odyssey anyway)

Forgive me for not being excited about something that I thought was being purposefully set up. I was extremely ecstatic about all of the little Apollonian details that litter the sagas because I know where this story ends up (loosely) but all God Games did was reveal that maybe those Apollonian details were not intentional at all, but merely the ghost of the Apollo who persistently haunts those he favours, even if he cannot explicitly come to their aide in an adaptation.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

So as I’ve been listening to the epic soundtrack and focusing on between Ruthlessness and Thunder Bringer.

I like how different the interactions are even though they have similar results.

With Posideon, he was there because they blinded his cyclops son and because of that he was there to get revenge. And he kills off most of the crew. Ironically even though he is singing about Ruthlessness, he could have easily killed them all. And because he was being a hypocrite, Odysseus escaped with the remains of the crew.

With Zeus, he was there because they killed the cows of the sun god. Which was a BIG no no.

(In the original, the crew sacrifices them to Zeus, even though they were told specifically not to touch the cows, thus making him the one that has to deal with the disrespect.)

Zeus is there and he is there to reprimand them for their pride. They thought they could disrespect the sun god. Basically being bad guests. Which Zeus being the god of the skies and hospitality decided to handle. And thus he calls out how he is there to humble them.

Now, Zeus could have ended it. One bolt of lightning and everyone gets ended by him. But his lesson was about pride. So what would be the most humbling for the crew?

Making Odysseus choose between what he truly wants and his crew. This was his decision

This also works for the crew as well, the crew that JUST COMMITTED a mutiny against their captain. Their lives in the hands of the man they just betrayed.

Odysseus made his choice and Zeus honored it. Knowing what he would do. Because Odysseus was no longer proud, and he was ruthless.

I also just love how different Zeus and Poseidon are in these songs. Poseidon makes it personal, is angry, is cruel. Taunting and torturing Odysseus.

But Zeus, he is simply stating that the crew messed up, and he sounds more like a disappointed dad. Even when he tells Odysseus he has to choose between himself or his crew, he asks him. He doesn’t threaten, he doesn’t yell. He simply asks, as if a parent is offering a choice on what ice cream to get. It’s light, but the implications are powerful.

[sniffle-bird]

actually no i’m not done talking about eurylochus how does nobody understand what he’s getting at in ‘mutiny’.

i’ve seen people call him a hypocrite for being upset at odysseus for sacrificing the crew when he tried to leave the men at circe’s island but that is just. so wrong. giving up on rescuing men from the hands of a very dangerous sorceress and goddess in order to save the rest of the crew is not comparable to odysseus willingly leading six men to their deaths without their knowledge.

that’s not even what he’s upset about. he’s not mad they sacrificed the men (well. he is. but that’s not his main argument) he’s mad because ody picked that route so easily. which is why he brings up all the other things they’ve faced, e.g., the cyclops, (“you were quick to hatch a plan”) and circe, (“it was you who left behind no man”). which is why he literally begs ody to lie to him and tell him he had no idea how going through scylla’s lair would go.

“tell me you did not know that would happen, tell me you didn’t know how that would end.”

“use your wits to tell me that i’m crazy and mad, that this is all a trick the gods have sent.”

“tell me you did not miss home so painfully bad that you gave up the lives of six of our friends.”

and odysseus, who is usually very chatty in all other songs, is dead quiet, which eurylochus comments on in ‘scylla’. eury makes no attempt to usurp him until ody tells him he can’t say that he was clueless or mislead and that he knew exactly what he was doing, which is when he says, “then you have forced my hand.”

eurylochus’s mutiny is not a power hungry act, it’s something he was quite literally forced into in order to keep the crew safe. ody just showed that he was willing to sacrifice members of the crew for the sake of getting home, and eurylochus has to protect them.

to him, he has tried and failed to reel odysseus in time and time again, first with the lotus eaters, trying to discourage them from going/deciding to just raid the place. if they had, they likely wouldn’t have spoken to the lotus eaters and they wouldn’t have gone to the cyclops cave. polites would be alive, athena would still be with them. there are many other examples of this but i’m trying (and failing) to keep this post on the shorter side. ody is a wild card they can’t afford to keep playing when they get into a crisis. the crew specifically sings, “now the time has come to shut you down.” the entirety of mutiny is like a fat intervention for ody’s spiralling into the “monster” he thinks he has to be to get home.

then of course there’s the whole thing with him killing the cows, blah blah, i covered it in my other long ass eurylochus defence post, but i’ve seen so many people give eury shit for calling odysseus “captain” again after they get into trouble and it’s just so. shallow. their view of eurylochus is so shallow.

i’ve spoken about this before but there’s a very interesting manner in which eurylochus refers to odysseus. he calls him “captain,” but also “ody,” and his brother/his friend. it’s not like polites, where he switches from calling odysseus the captain and also his friend when they’re alone. eurylochus switches almost sporadically. times where it would be appropriate to call odysseus his captain, he calls him ody/brother/friend. times where it would be appropriate for a less formal title like his nickname/something more affectionate like his brother or his friend, he calls him captain. it’s like he doesn’t know where he and odysseus stand. his view of him is constantly shifting and changing.

so obviously, when odysseus sounds so distressed after he kills the cow and suddenly leaps back into his leadership role eurylochus would also subconsciously slip back into his role as his second? his ‘captain’ doesn’t really sound that scared to me, either, more… confused? concerned? slowly realising he’s fucked, yes, but more in a ‘regretting jumping off a building the second you step off’ way. not in a ‘omg how could this happen pls save us captain’ way.

he doesn’t know wtf is going on. he was expecting to kill the cow, get a good meal for his remaining crew, and then get smited. instead he has his captain screaming at him, thunder clouds rolling in immediately, all this shit happening, of course he would call for his friend. it’s not even a call for him!! it’s a response!!! to ody screaming that they’re doomed! “you’ve doomed us all!!” “captain?” like omfg

eurylochus is NOT looking for odysseus to save him or pull him out of his mess. he was just confused and obviously kind of spooked. and the title is a whole other issue that i could honestly write an essay about (or a fic. it’ll probably be the fic.)

[bishopoftheoldfaith]

Cult of the lamb x Epic the musical

So I’ve seen a lot of these but I agree with none of them, especially the ones with Ratau as Odysseus, mostly because I doubt he is brave enough for this role and probably wouldn’t be able to handle it. So I’m not only going to put what I think each role should be, but also an explanation. I will only be doing the main cast for now but comment or reboot if you want more.

Odysseus-Heket

Not only is she the bravest out of anyone in the game she is literally heartless. I think that it would be interesting to see her go through the journey of becoming the monster that she is today. Not only that but she is also stronger than the entire cast so Odysseus would really be fitting (in my opinion) (The song Odysseus from the Ithaca saga fits best with her)

Athena-Shamura

Humbled by a lightning bolt in the face and nothing else. Who’s to help Heket be a ruthless tyrant than her dear sibling. Athena and Shamura already have so much in common, badasses, warriors and gods of war and wisdom but in this musical they especially fit best since in this at first Athena try’s to make Odysseus more ruthless but in the end she is more merciful and he ends up being a monster. Athena also leaves Odysseus to deal with his problems himself, in the game Shamura doesn’t help or fight the lamb to their fullest (The song Warrior of the mind or My Goodbye showcases what I’m saying clearly)

Polities- Leshy

I imagine Leshy being a happy go lucky lad when he is not in the presence of the lamb. Not only does he blindly trust the winions in Open Arms but he also gets taken out first. Also Heket has the most impact from Leshy dying in the game and in this musical Odysseus gets the most impacted by Polities’ death since Polities gets mentioned in almost every saga (Open Arms is the song for Leshy)

Eurylochus-Kallamar

Eurylochus is not only a hypocrite but he is also the most cowardly out of the cast, he was scared of going to the island in the sky and wanted to run away from Circe. He also betrayed Odysseus in mutiny which is a very Kallamar move. Kallamar is technically also the second in command in the family. (Luck runs out or mutiny are some very good songs to show how he is)

Please comment your opinion on this, disagreements or agreements :)

[kitnjon]

Any Jonsa fics in which characterization and physical appearance of Jon is closer to Canon?

Hi,

I am assuming you mean closer to book canon? Honestly I haven't really read that many book jonsa fics. I am more of a show jonsa fan and mostly read modern AUs 😅

Few book fics I have read are post ADWD. Sharing them below -

1. The Wolves of Winter by JustAWhiteQuill

~When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.~ Beneath a wall of ice, a crow died and came back a wolf. Now, he is crowned King in the North and faced with the immense task of preparing his battered kingdom for the Long Night. Atop the lonely mountain, a little bird grew fangs and came back a wolf. Now, she is the Princess of Winterfell and taking care of the only family she thinks she has left. When news reaches them of the other still being alive, a chain of events is set in motion. Winter is coming, and with it, the darkest hour of the night. The time for wolves is here. All the while, the dragons and lions south are battling for a throne covered in fire and blood.

2. I Can't Steal You (Like You Stole Me) by @thewolvescalledmehome

Seeing the only family Sansa Stark had left to her was the only motivation keeping her astride the horse. Jon Snow is at Castle Black. He’ll protect you. It had been so long since she felt safe, felt protected. She yearned for the security of familiar arms and someone who cared for her because she was Sansa and not a Stark. The nerves she may have felt over arriving at Castle Black alone to see the half-brother she had not seen—had barely thought of—in years did not consume her, nor did she allow herself to feel disappointment that it was not Robb or a trueborn brother to save her. Only, upon her arrival, she is told of the mutiny. Then she is asked an impossible question: What would she give to have him back?

Lyric title prompt on Tumblr from the song "You" by The Pretty Reckless.

3. Beasts of Seasons by Simonetta

She had prepared her words and her actions meticulously. She hadn’t prepared to actually see him. Or, Jon and Sansa reunite and things don't go according to plan, forcing Sansa to reevaluate her identity and her loyalties and forcing Jon to come back to himself. Post-ADWD, bookverse fic. Jon and Sansa reunite on campaign to win back Winterfell.

4. The Thawing of Winter by @jade-masquerade

Sansa knew Jon married her—married Alayne—for the Vale, or maybe, because of his past, he saw her as a fellow bastard and meant to raise her up the same as his people did for him, how they chose Lord Eddard’s sole surviving son as King in the North. But when she looked at him, she saw nothing of the sort in his eyes, only a flash of desire, the way a man ought to look at his wife, before he steadied his gaze. If this was truly wrong, she wondered, then why did the gods let it feel so right?

Putting this in tag so others may add in as well.

Thanks for the ask!

[sagaduwyrm]

So this new saga, besides causing us all psychological damage heretofore unheard of, has a really interesting narrative function. The Underworld Saga showed Odysseus making the decision the entire musical was leading up to, that is 'to become a monster'. The Thunder Saga shows the success and consequences of this decision.

Suffering, Different Beast, and Scylla take Odysseus past two opponents comparable to those who previously would have been devastating to him, but instead are stepping stones and tools. This is the benefit of making this decision.

Mutiny and Thunder Bringer are the consequences. Being a monster sets you apart, you can't have your cake/crew have eat/sacrifice them too. This is where Odysseus understands that he can't half-ass his decision and follows through.

These songs have other purposes of course. Suffering and it's reprisals suggest that Odysseus is suicidal, showing that he's less unaffected then he wants others to think. Different Beast really sets up Mutiny as the crew are initially glad that Odysseus has made the hard choice, before they realize what that means for them. Scylla's claim that they're the same is really poignant as she was also made into a monster by the gods, emphasizing the tragedy of it. Mutiny emphasizes how the blame and mistakes fall onto the crew and Eurylochus as well as Odysseus, and the breaking of their relationship. Thunder Bringer brings Zeus back to finish the character arc he first pushed Odysseus onto in The Horse and the Infant.

Overall this is really amazing, and I would consider it one of the most important Sagas yet.

[helpami-flaffy]

EPIC THE MUSICAL OPINIONS, VERY OPINIONS, VERY MINE.

IF YOU DON'T WANT SOME NEGATIVITY DON'T READ. THIS IS NOT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE I SWEAR.

MOSTLY COMPILED AT NIGHT, SOME REVISION.

PLEASE DO NOT COME AT ME.

.....................

After this saga I'm left kind of perplexed about epic.

What is epic trying to say here? What's the musical's stance on ruthlessness?

Because it isn't very clear to me anymore.

Is it bad? Is it good and just? Is it a necessary evil? Is it worth becoming something monstrous just to achieve your goals?

The thing I'm trying to say is:

Is epic a tragedy or a triumph?

Until the vengeance saga I thought it was the former, but now I'm not so sure.

Throughout the story Odysseus takes desicions that either side with what I'll call the 'open arm mentality' or the 'ruthless' mentality.

He gets punished for both a number of times.

He kills Astianax so he doesn't have to fear his future vengeance.

He spares Polyphemus and that leads to 558 men dying.

He appeals to Circe's humanity and that leads her to freeing his men and helping him get to the underworld.

He sacrificed 6 men to Scylla and that leads to 'mutiny' and 'thunder bringer' where the rest of his crew dies and he ends up in calypso's island where she imprisoned him for 7 years.

First act of ruthlessness= good outcome

First act of open arms= bad outcome

Second act of open arms= good outcome

Second act of ruthlessness= bad outcome

(I forgot to add the sirens, that encounter is kinda strange tho.  Ody kills all of them but I wouldn't call that ruthlessness. Ruthlessness is doing whatever needs doing to get what you want. He needed to know how to get home, and killing the sirens after doesn't matter in that context. I guess it's good for future sailors? I'll count this as an altruistic positive I guess)

This breakdown isn't perfect, lots of other things happen and some things Ody does can't really be neatly categorized by this simple metric imo, but I'll continue anyway as it feels to me the story breaks down his actions in a sort of similar dichotomy.

All in all the 'good to bad' ratio seems pretty balanced, right? It's not always ruthlessness that wins the day, and 'open arms' solutions don't always work out.

So why does it feel like we're supposed to root for ruthless Odysseus? Why does it feel like the story wants us to believe that being the monster is a good if 'somewhat sad' outcome?

Why am I saying this? Well, it's 600 strikes.

Actually just- all the vengeance saga.

Why is what Ody does here supposed to be cool and awesome? Because, like, that is absolutely the angle here.

Complete with a, honestly absurd, anime power up and fighting-god-one-on-one moment.

Why does the story break down it's logic,  breaks suspension of disbelief (at least for me), to get Odysseus into a position were he can torture Poseidon into letting him go?

Wich?? Btw should not work??

Why is this how he wins?

Why are the ghosts of his friends and family no longer spectres of regrets for but terrifying promises of death?

What does this say? Was Odysseus wrong about their sacrifice? Was regret ever only a noose around his neck? I'm looking too deeply into this one lol.

In 'get in the water' we even get the obligatory appeal to Poseidon's mercy just to hammer down once again that 'open arms' doesn't work, even tho it's Athena's appeal to her father's mercy that set Odysseus free in the first place.

The saga ends with Poseidon asking Odysseus how he'll sleep at night after all of this and Ody, in admittedly the coldest line ever written on paper, says:

"Next to my wife"

...

This is cool.

Extremely cool even.

But that's kind of the problem I have with it.

The song ends in a badass way. This is meant to be the final zing to seal Odysseus' cool ass victory.

And in all of this, not once, does the story seem to recognize that...well...

Poseidon won.

Hell not even Poseidon recognized it!

I'm not even saying "OoOh if it was realistic Poseidon would have have won!" (Tho yeah, ask me about that, lol)

In the great ideological battle that's at the center of Epic: the musical, Poseidon was the ultimate victor.

Ruthless is what wins at the end, it's what gets Odysseus home. Odysseus might be a monster but he's a victorious one.

I feel people and the musical both don't really acknowledge that.

That even if Poseidon lost the battle he ultimately won the war.

Were is the irony? Where's the bitterness and sorrow? We're Poseidon's bloodied, mocking smirk revelling in his victory?

Is Epic a tragedy or a power fantasy?

[eggcats]

I've been listening to the Thunder Saga, and I wonder if Zeus is also asking a question with a right and wrong answer in Thunder Bringer like I think Poseidon did in Ruthlessness. (I have a post for that, but I think Odysseus wasn't supposed to apologize, but to instead acknowledge that he should have killed Polyphemus).

Poseidon had to teach him to be ruthless.

Zeus needs to teach him to stop being so prideful.

Like, yes - Eurylochus did stage the mutiny and killed the cow. But! That was because Odysseus decided not to tell any of his men that they would need to accept 6 deaths to get home and allow them to make the choice themselves - because Odysseus couldn't handle the idea that they might refuse going past Scylla and keep him from going home.

This is even present in the song Scylla. Eurylochus is moved to confess that it was him who opened the bag of winds, but Odysseus keeps his own secrets and guilt to himself. I think none of the men even knew they were going past Scylla at all until it happened, since all Eurylochus says is "something approaches," implying he doesn't know what that something even IS.

Scylla even compares Odysseus to themselves, with his full transformation from man to monster now completed.

You hide a reason for shame You know that we are the same Leaving them feeling betrayed Breaking the bonds that you've made There is no price we won't pay We both know what it takes to survive

But if you notice, once they kill the cow, they start following Odysseus again. Hell, Eurylochus calls him captain! They follow his orders to escape! This shows that their real desire wasn't to overthrow Odysseus, but rather their anger and betrayal at not even having the option to choose to fight over sacrifice.

And honestly, this happened because Odysseus has demonstrated time and again that he will not discuss anything with his men and instead makes decisions without their input (too much pride to ever consider anyone's opinion other than his own).

In Storm, he tries to force the fleets to keep going despite Eurylochus saying that continuing would sink them all. In the same song, Odysseus also decides to go to the wind god without any discussion beforehand, and completely ignores Eurylochus's advice in Luck Runs Out about the inherent danger of going to the gods for help. In this same song, Odysseus also completely ignores the deaths of his men by Polyphemus, and instead brags about none of them dying in the war. (Once again, the pride Zeus mentions, and that Eurylochus criticizes in both Luck Runs Out and Puppeteer).

This is why Eurylochus opens the bag of winds, because Odysseus has proven he can't be trusted to tell him anything that could be important or put their lives in danger. Despite Eurylochus being his second in command, he's never treated as such. Odysseus has never once discussed something with him, taken his concerns into account, made a decision with him together, or even taken his advice. (Even cutting him off as far back as Full Speed Ahead without even considering his opinion).

Odysseus continues to ignore what Eurylochus tries to talk to him about in Puppeteer, and instead unintentionally gets all his men trapped by Circe. He then goes against Eurylochus again in the same song to confront her despite neither of them knowing if she can be defeated. All of this comes to a head when Odysseus does the same thing again in Scylla, except his decision was to intentionally let their men die for his own desires - and Eurylochus had no idea until it had already happened.

And that's why Eurylochus mutinies. He does it because he cares about his men, seemingly more than Odysseus has demonstrated he ever has.

(I'm not saying that Eurylochus has been right this whole time, and honestly I doubt Eurylochus would say the same - but Odysseus won't even listen to what he has to say, is the problem. He has too much pride).

And then Zeus arrives and proves Eurylochus right.

Zeus gives Odysseus a choice - him or his men. Forcing him to come to terms with the very same decision he made during Scylla and expose him for only caring for himself and not the men under his command.

Zeus is criticizing Odysseus and claiming that he's too full of pride to sacrifice himself to save his men. His men of which he is their captain. Of which he is their king. Zeus points this out to him explicitly, leading me to believe that he wasn't supposed to choose himself here.

I think that by taking back command after they killed the cow, Odysseus had taken responsibility for his men's actions. Except, when confronted with those same actions, he refuses to. Much like how a boss gets in trouble when their subordinates do something wrong, a captain should do the same for his crew.

Except. Odysseus doesn't. He fails the test.

And now he must have his pride taken from him again and again until he learns the lesson Zeus was teaching him. Just like he did with learning ruthlessness from Poseidon.

I think the next saga will involve him being confronted with this decision he makes here, and how it was the wrong one, and then the saga after that (perhaps with the suitors? I'm unsure how many more are planned) is when Odysseus will reprise Thunder Bringer and finally be able to return home.

[theultimatenonbinarynerd]

Eurylochus's God Games

Introduction

Hello Epic Fans, I'm very excited to share with you something that's part of a Eurylochus Lives Au I'm pulling together.

Even before God Games came out I was really interested in the idea of other Epic characters having to have their own God Games to release them or let them live. Eurylochus is such a complex character and I knew right away thinking about a God Games about Eurylochus would be interesting as the arguments made for and against him would should the complex duality of his character.

So I then decided I was going to try use Jay's snippets we'd been given and conjure up my own version of Eurylochus's God Games. Honestly it was just a concept but then I wanted to use it for my au where Eurylochus gets resssurected from the dead.

Doing these snippets helped me really understand which God's should be swapped around or swapped out entirely. So I kept Aphrodite and Ares but added in Helios, Poseidon and Persephone. Ares, Aphrodite and Beaat Mode Hades were the hardest to write whilst Helios and Poseidon's were the easier parts. We are talking about the man that literally killed his cows and Poseidon would be mad Eurylochus spared Odysseus during Mutiny.

Then now with the release of The Wisdom Saga the parody has perfectly come together like glue. It was really hard though cos I didn't want all the arguments to be about what happened on Helios's island. But the Windbag and Helios's island are such important parts of Eurylochus's character arc.

Honestly it's not perfect but I'm really proud how this parody turned out. It's still got the high stakes and drama and it's super intresting. I hope I can inspire people to make their own games for other characters.

___________________________________________

___________________________________________

Conclusion

I wanted to save this for my Eurylochus Lives au but I've realised that it's too far in the future right now with how busy life is and due to how good it is I wanted to share it. Never in my life did I think I'd be writing a song parody where Circe becomes Eurylochus's lawyer but it's super cool.

I have to say Eurylochus is such a cool character and his reverse character arc compared to Odysseus is what makes him so interesting. A lot of Circes defences are what Epic fans have said and I hope the defences also humanise him a bit. Fingers crossed for that Eurylochus prequel.

Honestly it was really fun writing the parody and including other God's who don't have the spotlight in Epic. Helios is a super fun character to write and he will be in some of my other fics but in Eurylochus's God Games he is both super petty and considered about his challenging the Lord of The Underworld.

Any questions about my Eurylochus Lives au my asks are open.

I'm gonna share bits of the parody on tik tok but that's all I can do I'm afraid.

Happy reading Eurylochus fans.

-Melody-

They/Them

Tags: @tumblingghosts @caramellcandy

[epicthemusicalstuff]

I CRYUNG I NEED SOMEONE TO SUM UP ALL ETM SONGS MY. MEMORY + ATTENTION SPAN IS SO BAD

Let’s speed run epic the musical so far!! (It’s under the cut cause even a summary is gonna take a bit for 35 songs-)

Horse and the Infant:

Giant horse- ATTACK! ZEUS?!?! What are you doing here? I have to kill a baby? But he’s just a little thing-

Just a Man:

This little boy reminds me of my son. Is killing him the morally correct thing to do? Yeet.

Full Speed Ahead:

Let’s introduce our main cast! Wow! Polites- Eurylochus- Odysseus! BFFs forever! We’re hungry- let’s go to this island and look for food!

Open Arms:

Wow Odysseus, you are looking hella tense, maybe you should try being nice and not so mistrustful. Look at these little creatures eating lotus fruit- wow this fruit is bad for you- let’s go to this cave to find food!

Warrior of the Mind:

Athena and Odysseus back story. Odysseus, your actions aren’t very Warrior of the Mind coded. Don’t disappoint me.

Polyphemus:

Let’s kill these Sheep!! NOOO! Scary Cyclops, we killed his sheep, now he will kill us.

Survive:

HES GOT A CLUB. He is killing us- NO POLITES. Oh, Polyphemus is asleep now cause he drank spiked wine.

Remember Them:

Odysseus tricks Polyphemus. They almost get away, and then he GIVES OUT HIS FULL NAME, JOB POSITION, ADRESS, AND SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER.

My Goodbye:

Athena is disappointed and they have a big messy friend break up.

Storm:

There is a big storm. Wow! A floating island! Let’s go!

Luck Runs Out:

Captain, you keep taking risks and not thinking this through. What happens if your plans fail?

Keep Your Friends Close:

Hahahahahaha! Here is a bag of wind! Don’t open it! Oh- the winions told you to open it? No!! Penelope- I’m hallucinating! Darn- the bag is opened.

Ruthlessness:

You hurt my son. So now I’m gonna kill most of your men. What’s this- a daring escape? Well- I’ll get you sooner or later-

Puppeteer:

An island. Let’s explore! Oh no- scary lady, she turned us into pigs! Let’s run Captain! Or not I guess.

Wouldn’t You Like:

Hey kid, this scary lady could kill you. How about some magic drugs? Totally safe and all.

Done For:

We are evenly matched- big magic fight! Wow! The magic drugs Hermes gave you really are something. Are you trying to seduce me?

There Are Other Ways:

Wow, you really are trying to seduce me. Too bad- I have a wife I love. Wait- you’ll help us? THE UNDERWORLD WHAT?

The Underworld:

We are haunted by everyone we have lost- Polites- wait- MOM?!? I’m too late-

No Longer You:

This dead prophet should tell me what we want to know- wait- what no- this is actually terrible? We came to you for help but now you’re saying you can’t help us? WHO?!a

Monster:

Maybe Poseidon was onto something, and we do have to be ruthless. Welp, time to become the monster y’all.

Suffering:

Ooo, Penelope, I love you, but you know I’m too shy. I don’t want to get in the water-

Different Beast:

SURPRISE I KNEW YOU WERENY MY WIFE. I actually did become the monster, and now I’m going to kill all your friends you Siren!

Scylla:

This is the only way home. Eurylochus, what do you mean you opened the wind bag back in Keep Your Friends Close. Light six torches- oh no, a giant monster is eating our crew. Me and her are the same you know.

Mutiny:

Captain why did you do that? Fight fight fight! Oh no- Odysseus has been stabbed. I’m hungry, let’s eat cows. Oh no, they were a gods cows. We knew that but still ate them. Now Zeus is gonna kill us.

Thunders Bringer:

Zeus is here. You can live, or your crew can live. But like- Penelope. Sorry crew. Crew dies.

Legendary:

It’s me! Telemachus! I never knew my dad- I wish I could know my dad. All these suitors want to marry my mom. I wish I could fight them. DONT CALL MY MOTHER A TRAMP!

Little Wolf:

Fight Little Wolf Fight- we are going to beat you up just cause you were in the way. WOW. ATHENA?? What are you doing here- we haven’t seen you since the second saga! Ow.

We’ll Be Fine:

I’m going to help you cause I feel guilty about your dad. Bet. We are best friends now. Go find my dad.

Love In Paradise:

Rewind- Morning! You were asleep. I’m in love with you now. Ew back away I have a wife. You’re a goddess??? Oh no- now I’m really depressed. I’m haunted by the ghosts again- ATHENA!

God Games:

Zeus- father- release Odysseus. *lots of convincing Gods* NO, YOU DID WHAT I ASKED SO NOW IM MAD. LIGHTNING BOLT. Is she- dead?

I’m Not Sorry For Loving You:

Yes I kept you trapped against you power, but I loved you- why won’t you love me back? It’s not like you have a whole literally family waiting for you-

Dangerous:

HAHAHAHA. Hello old friend! Let’s do some cool dance moves as I tell you how you will get back home. Here is a wind bag 2.0! Let’s hope you don’t have issues with it this time!

Charybdis:

Another obstacle!! But I know how to beat you!! Woo! I see home- I’m almost there! WAIT NO! NOT AGAIN!

Get In The Water:

Poseidon! Please let me get home- I already told Siren Penelope, I don’t want to get in the water! Can’t we get along? No! Drowning-

Six Hundred Strike:

Use the wind bag! I’m out of the water! SIX HUNDRED STRIKE! You’re beat Poseidon- let me go home. What’s this? You won’t. TIME FOR VIOLENCE. Stab. Stab. Stab. Next to my WIFE.

[dootznbootz]

I don't know about you, but I'm a bit mixed about Calypso in EPC. I mean, her songs are good, her singer's quite talented, so I don't have a problem... musically, at least.

But, story-wise, Calypso seems a bit too victim-like in my taste. "I'm not sorry for loving you" seems like it wants to make us sympathize with her and to consider her as Odysseus' friend.

While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her.

On the plus side, "Love in paradise" affirms she's the powerful one and Odysseus later confirms he doesn't love her romantically (plus Athena's 'he never cheated on his wife' line in "God games")

So it won't be detrimental for OdyPen 🥰.

What do you think ?

Oh, I'm definitely mixed about Calypso in Epic. As just like you said:

"While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her."

The Epic Fandom already DOES forget what happens in the Odyssey or think that they are the same thing. :/ I see stuff talking about Scylla in how Odysseus lights the torches and yet, it's tagged as "Odyssey". I love "light up six torches" as it's very dark but also very painful for Epic!Odysseus and that's really fun!

But I get saddened when people think that happened in the Odyssey ;~; as it's one of my favorite parts where Odysseus, knowing that Circe warned him, still goes to put on his armor to try and fight Scylla himself. He tried so fucking hard to save them. And they all grieved later on together. Eurylochus does mutiny in both but in the Odyssey, it isn't because of Scylla or anything. They were all just...Hungry ;~;

That's not even talking about how the Epic Fandom was when we only got the snippet of "There are other ways" ;~;

I still remember when there were jokes about how Odysseus is just like Hamilton and "Couldn't say No to this." Also Circe never did that to "protect her nymphs" in the Odyssey. She did it for funsies as she's a goddess and can do what she wants. That doesn't mean he was happy though.

I DO trust Jay to do well with Calypso's island. While I really am nervous about "I'm not Sorry for Loving you." like very nervous. I think HE'LL also make it clear that Odysseus isn't well or happy. As he has that cut song with the lyrics of:

"Is this some kind of trick? Pretending I can go Because if so, you're sick My heart's already broken"

So even though he cut that song because the beat and the music did NOT fit the situation, I'm very sure he'll have another like it showing Odysseus' despair and suffering.

I just... sighs I'm in a funky situation where I love Epic. I love it a lot. I think it's a genuinely good and fun retelling. I think while some spots are inaccurate, some are still really neat. I just get sad about this almost...disdain towards the actual Odyssey?

"Oh, Odysseus doesn't mention Penelope and Telemachus as much as he does in Epic-" Yes, he does. It's in so many of the metaphors and there's so many moments where he's clearly thinking about them. I love singing Penelope's name longingly too but an ancient epic poem is gonna be a lil different xD

"Oh Polites isn't really in it-" ...And?? That's okay. You enjoy Jay's character he created who really isn't in the Odyssey as much.

"Odysseus is such a manwhore in the Odyssey-" I am beating you over the head with a fucking rock.

Jay is clearly so fucking passionate and cares about this story so so much (he had a MENELAUS SONG (I grieve it's loss every day ;~; THEY CAN BOTH SIMP FOR THEIR HOT AF WIVES)) He had other characters planned!

But yeah ;~; I get so fucking sad every time someone talks about Epic being better than the Odyssey. Like even JAY wanted to clear that up that "hey, the Odyssey is really cool! I mean I wrote this because I love it so much." and yet... people don't wanna know or even TRY to understand what happens in the actual Epics.

I have hope. I just hope the FANDOM follows through.