#AND GOD MUTINY WHAT A SONG

[hellishgayliath]

Couldn't have asked for a more better 4th of july than this, thank you Mr. Jalapeno you're amazing.

[dutybcrne]

AU where bc of Diluc’s mother being Hexenzirkel and him and Kaeya’s fates being intertwined as a result of that and Kae’s family being Abyss Order-affiliated, Murata’s spirit clung to Diluc to further prepare him for the inevitable Final Battle and kept trying to warn him about the fact that he and Kaeya might very well be fated enemies in the end as well as of who Kae truly WAS and—

[gigizetz]

Hi gigi!! I hope your day is going well :) I had a few questions about the creative process with Mr Jalapeño, if you don't mind answering or if you're at liberty to answer

First, how early does Jorgy Gorgy approach you with the request to do an animatic for the livestream? Wisdom Saga came so soon after the Thunder Saga, but you still did pretty lengthy animatics for both those sagas AND the Sufferring and Scylla animatics on your own channel (like, seriously, are you God?? How do you crank out these high quality animatics so fast??)

Secondly, we've seen Jay's reference videos that he sends to artists, but I was wondering if you get any creative liberty in this process, too? I'm asking because I found it strange/funny how the reaction of Calypso hearing about Ody's wife was more "oh my god no what the heck he's taken" rather than "oh I'm gonna kill this woman" which was prevalent both in the original demo of the song and the animatics that sprouted from it! Was this change a direction you took, or was it one Jorgy wanted?

Sorry for the long ask, and I completely understand if you cant/don't want to answer some of these questions! Hope you have a lovely day tho :D

it's totally fine to ask that :D

for both animatics he approached me roughly 20ish days before the release of the songs (I think with Mutiny he might've reach out earlier but I can't remember), and we quickly go through which parts of the saga I'll be able to work on within that time frame.

And I do have a lot of creative liberty in those works. This specific Calypso moment was all Jay though!

[gingermintpepper]

Okay, let's finally talk about EPIC's Apollo

I feel very compelled to say, first of all, that I do not dislike Epic. In fact, I am very fond of Epic and have been following its production and status very eagerly! I attend all the launch streams, I watch all of Herrans' update videos; I am, at the end of the day, a fan and I want it to be known that my words are spoken out of love and passion as much as they are spoken from a place of critique.

So really, what my problem with Epic's Apollo?

In the briefest possible terms; the choice to have Apollo be defined by his musical aspect in God Games is thematically strange. And not in the 'oh well in the Odyssey, Apollo was important to Odysseus and his family so it's weird that that wasn't kept in Epic' strange, strange in the sense that Odysseus' character arc since My Goodbye has been getting more and more obviously Apollonian and so it is positively bizarre that when we get to meet Apollo, the god seems entirely disinterested in him and his affairs. So much so that he is not even defined by any station that would indicate that he has been watching over and protecting Odysseus and his family.

What do I mean by 'Odysseus has been following an Apollonian arc'? I'm so glad you asked!

Remember Them is the last song in which Odysseus explicitly uses his sword until Mutiny where he must use it to defend himself against Eurylochus' blade. He uses it to help enact the plan to conquer Polyphemus and, due to Polites dying in that battle, Polites who wished for Odysseus to put the blade down entirely and embrace a post-war life, Odysseus also retires his sword. This is an action that symbolically separates him from Athena - and the image of Odysseus as a traditional warrior set for him in Horse and Infant - as much as My Goodbye physically separates him from the goddess and her war-ways - from this point onwards, Odysseus will no longer be leaning on Athena's wisdom or methods to solve his problems. Likewise, he will no longer be able to rely on her protection.

Odysseus thusly solves most of his upcoming problems through diplomacy and avoidance. He approaches Aeolus - a strange and ambiguous god (both in gender and in motivation) and appeals to them for help. Circe too, he approaches not with wishes to conquer or for revenge, but for the safe returning of his men and an alternate way forward. In all of these scenarios, there is some Apollonian element which is subtly interweaved alongside the influence of other gods; it is with a bow and arrows that Polyphemus' sheep is slain (and thus it is this Apollonian element which is at the root of Odysseus' spat with Poseidon), it is a vision of Penelope that warns Odysseus that his men are about to open Aeolus' wind-bag, Circe's peace offering to Odysseus is to refer him to a prophet of Apollo who has since died.

In this way, Apollo is walking alongside Odysseus for all of his journey after Athena departs - even in the Underworld, he is guiding him. It is Tiresias' proclamation that is the last straw for Odysseus, it is by the power of a mouthpiece of Apollo that Odysseus decides to embrace his ruthlessness. It is with the bow and arrow that Odysseus subdues the siren who sought to trick him, likewise, Odysseus does not attempt to undermine or escape the fate of paying Scylla's passage price - he knows of the doom about to befall the six men and quite unlike the rest of the journey until this point, he does not fight against it. This all comes to a head on Thrinacia where it is a blade which sacrifices the sun god's cow and brings destruction upon the crew once more.

My point with all of this is that when I heard the teasers for God Games years ago, it made perfect sense to me that Apollo would be Round One - he is not Odysseus' adversary and has no reason to oppose Athena's wish to free him. From other teasers about what will happen in the climax of Epic, Apollo will still be walking alongside Odysseus - it is Apollo's bow that Penelope will give the suitors to string. Likewise, it is Apollo's bow that will prove Odysseus' legitimacy and identity. That bow will be the power by which Odysseus hunts his adversaries and cleans out his palace - it is Apollo who is the avatar of Odysseus' ruthlessness, not Athena.

So tell me, truly, what was the point of having Apollo raise a non-argument in God Games? Why have him appear unconcerned, aloof and slightly oblivious? Why have him appear in his capacity as the Lord of Music at all?? And if the intention was never to make Apollo an active player in Odysseus' life like he was in the Odyssey, why keep Odysseus as a primary archer?

The answer of course is that Apollo is inextricable from the fabric of the Odyssey - his influence and favour exudes from Odysseus just as much as Athena's. In Athena's ten year sulk, it would have been Apollo who kept Telemachus and Penelope safe. It would have been Apollo protecting Odysseus from Poseidon's gaze as he travelled the seas (according to the Odyssey anyway)

Forgive me for not being excited about something that I thought was being purposefully set up. I was extremely ecstatic about all of the little Apollonian details that litter the sagas because I know where this story ends up (loosely) but all God Games did was reveal that maybe those Apollonian details were not intentional at all, but merely the ghost of the Apollo who persistently haunts those he favours, even if he cannot explicitly come to their aide in an adaptation.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

So as I’ve been listening to the epic soundtrack and focusing on between Ruthlessness and Thunder Bringer.

I like how different the interactions are even though they have similar results.

With Posideon, he was there because they blinded his cyclops son and because of that he was there to get revenge. And he kills off most of the crew. Ironically even though he is singing about Ruthlessness, he could have easily killed them all. And because he was being a hypocrite, Odysseus escaped with the remains of the crew.

With Zeus, he was there because they killed the cows of the sun god. Which was a BIG no no.

(In the original, the crew sacrifices them to Zeus, even though they were told specifically not to touch the cows, thus making him the one that has to deal with the disrespect.)

Zeus is there and he is there to reprimand them for their pride. They thought they could disrespect the sun god. Basically being bad guests. Which Zeus being the god of the skies and hospitality decided to handle. And thus he calls out how he is there to humble them.

Now, Zeus could have ended it. One bolt of lightning and everyone gets ended by him. But his lesson was about pride. So what would be the most humbling for the crew?

Making Odysseus choose between what he truly wants and his crew. This was his decision

This also works for the crew as well, the crew that JUST COMMITTED a mutiny against their captain. Their lives in the hands of the man they just betrayed.

Odysseus made his choice and Zeus honored it. Knowing what he would do. Because Odysseus was no longer proud, and he was ruthless.

I also just love how different Zeus and Poseidon are in these songs. Poseidon makes it personal, is angry, is cruel. Taunting and torturing Odysseus.

But Zeus, he is simply stating that the crew messed up, and he sounds more like a disappointed dad. Even when he tells Odysseus he has to choose between himself or his crew, he asks him. He doesn’t threaten, he doesn’t yell. He simply asks, as if a parent is offering a choice on what ice cream to get. It’s light, but the implications are powerful.

[puhlobobr]

I wanna write a long post about mutiny cause its my favourite angst now

It's so important that Eurylochus was having a journey as well and he became more ruthless too maybe earlier than odysseus

Ha, and poor Odysseus. When he's not ruthless like with Polyphemus he faces cruel consequences immediately and when he is - well, the same.

But you know, what would be cruel too? To call out Eurylochus for wind bag, to say "hey, actually it's all your fault". I waited for this half of the song but Odysseus didn't do this. I like to think this is because he is not so ruthless as he wants to seem. He cares much about Eurylochus.

Also, I think, Eurylochus is painfully aware that its all also his fault. He tries to escape it, blame only Odysseus but he can't hide. And that's how it ends. They both on Helioses island, totally broken.

Reprise of Luck runs out just kills me. Eurylochus now on Odysseus' place aaaand... And it's the same disaster. Pure tragedy. No hope. So the crew deciding to slay cows. They would die anyway. They just don't want to suffer more then they already did. One last feast and than cruel gods can take what they want.

And... And he call Odysseus "Ody". And they don't even angry at each other at the end. Just exhausted. Ugh, I sobbed all the song.

I would like to write a bazillion words about it but I slept four and half hours soooo that's it

[sagaduwyrm]

So this new saga, besides causing us all psychological damage heretofore unheard of, has a really interesting narrative function. The Underworld Saga showed Odysseus making the decision the entire musical was leading up to, that is 'to become a monster'. The Thunder Saga shows the success and consequences of this decision.

Suffering, Different Beast, and Scylla take Odysseus past two opponents comparable to those who previously would have been devastating to him, but instead are stepping stones and tools. This is the benefit of making this decision.

Mutiny and Thunder Bringer are the consequences. Being a monster sets you apart, you can't have your cake/crew have eat/sacrifice them too. This is where Odysseus understands that he can't half-ass his decision and follows through.

These songs have other purposes of course. Suffering and it's reprisals suggest that Odysseus is suicidal, showing that he's less unaffected then he wants others to think. Different Beast really sets up Mutiny as the crew are initially glad that Odysseus has made the hard choice, before they realize what that means for them. Scylla's claim that they're the same is really poignant as she was also made into a monster by the gods, emphasizing the tragedy of it. Mutiny emphasizes how the blame and mistakes fall onto the crew and Eurylochus as well as Odysseus, and the breaking of their relationship. Thunder Bringer brings Zeus back to finish the character arc he first pushed Odysseus onto in The Horse and the Infant.

Overall this is really amazing, and I would consider it one of the most important Sagas yet.

[kitnjon]

Any Jonsa fics in which characterization and physical appearance of Jon is closer to Canon?

Hi,

I am assuming you mean closer to book canon? Honestly I haven't really read that many book jonsa fics. I am more of a show jonsa fan and mostly read modern AUs 😅

Few book fics I have read are post ADWD. Sharing them below -

1. The Wolves of Winter by JustAWhiteQuill

~When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.~ Beneath a wall of ice, a crow died and came back a wolf. Now, he is crowned King in the North and faced with the immense task of preparing his battered kingdom for the Long Night. Atop the lonely mountain, a little bird grew fangs and came back a wolf. Now, she is the Princess of Winterfell and taking care of the only family she thinks she has left. When news reaches them of the other still being alive, a chain of events is set in motion. Winter is coming, and with it, the darkest hour of the night. The time for wolves is here. All the while, the dragons and lions south are battling for a throne covered in fire and blood.

2. I Can't Steal You (Like You Stole Me) by @thewolvescalledmehome

Seeing the only family Sansa Stark had left to her was the only motivation keeping her astride the horse. Jon Snow is at Castle Black. He’ll protect you. It had been so long since she felt safe, felt protected. She yearned for the security of familiar arms and someone who cared for her because she was Sansa and not a Stark. The nerves she may have felt over arriving at Castle Black alone to see the half-brother she had not seen—had barely thought of—in years did not consume her, nor did she allow herself to feel disappointment that it was not Robb or a trueborn brother to save her. Only, upon her arrival, she is told of the mutiny. Then she is asked an impossible question: What would she give to have him back?

Lyric title prompt on Tumblr from the song "You" by The Pretty Reckless.

3. Beasts of Seasons by Simonetta

She had prepared her words and her actions meticulously. She hadn’t prepared to actually see him. Or, Jon and Sansa reunite and things don't go according to plan, forcing Sansa to reevaluate her identity and her loyalties and forcing Jon to come back to himself. Post-ADWD, bookverse fic. Jon and Sansa reunite on campaign to win back Winterfell.

4. The Thawing of Winter by @jade-masquerade

Sansa knew Jon married her—married Alayne—for the Vale, or maybe, because of his past, he saw her as a fellow bastard and meant to raise her up the same as his people did for him, how they chose Lord Eddard’s sole surviving son as King in the North. But when she looked at him, she saw nothing of the sort in his eyes, only a flash of desire, the way a man ought to look at his wife, before he steadied his gaze. If this was truly wrong, she wondered, then why did the gods let it feel so right?

Putting this in tag so others may add in as well.

Thanks for the ask!

[eggcats]

I've been listening to the Thunder Saga, and I wonder if Zeus is also asking a question with a right and wrong answer in Thunder Bringer like I think Poseidon did in Ruthlessness. (I have a post for that, but I think Odysseus wasn't supposed to apologize, but to instead acknowledge that he should have killed Polyphemus).

Poseidon had to teach him to be ruthless.

Zeus needs to teach him to stop being so prideful.

Like, yes - Eurylochus did stage the mutiny and killed the cow. But! That was because Odysseus decided not to tell any of his men that they would need to accept 6 deaths to get home and allow them to make the choice themselves - because Odysseus couldn't handle the idea that they might refuse going past Scylla and keep him from going home.

This is even present in the song Scylla. Eurylochus is moved to confess that it was him who opened the bag of winds, but Odysseus keeps his own secrets and guilt to himself. I think none of the men even knew they were going past Scylla at all until it happened, since all Eurylochus says is "something approaches," implying he doesn't know what that something even IS.

Scylla even compares Odysseus to themselves, with his full transformation from man to monster now completed.

You hide a reason for shame You know that we are the same Leaving them feeling betrayed Breaking the bonds that you've made There is no price we won't pay We both know what it takes to survive

But if you notice, once they kill the cow, they start following Odysseus again. Hell, Eurylochus calls him captain! They follow his orders to escape! This shows that their real desire wasn't to overthrow Odysseus, but rather their anger and betrayal at not even having the option to choose to fight over sacrifice.

And honestly, this happened because Odysseus has demonstrated time and again that he will not discuss anything with his men and instead makes decisions without their input (too much pride to ever consider anyone's opinion other than his own).

In Storm, he tries to force the fleets to keep going despite Eurylochus saying that continuing would sink them all. In the same song, Odysseus also decides to go to the wind god without any discussion beforehand, and completely ignores Eurylochus's advice in Luck Runs Out about the inherent danger of going to the gods for help. In this same song, Odysseus also completely ignores the deaths of his men by Polyphemus, and instead brags about none of them dying in the war. (Once again, the pride Zeus mentions, and that Eurylochus criticizes in both Luck Runs Out and Puppeteer).

This is why Eurylochus opens the bag of winds, because Odysseus has proven he can't be trusted to tell him anything that could be important or put their lives in danger. Despite Eurylochus being his second in command, he's never treated as such. Odysseus has never once discussed something with him, taken his concerns into account, made a decision with him together, or even taken his advice. (Even cutting him off as far back as Full Speed Ahead without even considering his opinion).

Odysseus continues to ignore what Eurylochus tries to talk to him about in Puppeteer, and instead unintentionally gets all his men trapped by Circe. He then goes against Eurylochus again in the same song to confront her despite neither of them knowing if she can be defeated. All of this comes to a head when Odysseus does the same thing again in Scylla, except his decision was to intentionally let their men die for his own desires - and Eurylochus had no idea until it had already happened.

And that's why Eurylochus mutinies. He does it because he cares about his men, seemingly more than Odysseus has demonstrated he ever has.

(I'm not saying that Eurylochus has been right this whole time, and honestly I doubt Eurylochus would say the same - but Odysseus won't even listen to what he has to say, is the problem. He has too much pride).

And then Zeus arrives and proves Eurylochus right.

Zeus gives Odysseus a choice - him or his men. Forcing him to come to terms with the very same decision he made during Scylla and expose him for only caring for himself and not the men under his command.

Zeus is criticizing Odysseus and claiming that he's too full of pride to sacrifice himself to save his men. His men of which he is their captain. Of which he is their king. Zeus points this out to him explicitly, leading me to believe that he wasn't supposed to choose himself here.

I think that by taking back command after they killed the cow, Odysseus had taken responsibility for his men's actions. Except, when confronted with those same actions, he refuses to. Much like how a boss gets in trouble when their subordinates do something wrong, a captain should do the same for his crew.

Except. Odysseus doesn't. He fails the test.

And now he must have his pride taken from him again and again until he learns the lesson Zeus was teaching him. Just like he did with learning ruthlessness from Poseidon.

I think the next saga will involve him being confronted with this decision he makes here, and how it was the wrong one, and then the saga after that (perhaps with the suitors? I'm unsure how many more are planned) is when Odysseus will reprise Thunder Bringer and finally be able to return home.

[fallen-angel-with-broken-halo]

As a self-proclaimed fan of Epic: The Musical. Here's a breakdown of my thoughts on the newest saga! Spoilers for the Thunder Saga, obviously.

Love the melody on "Suffering." Especially the beginning. A lot about the song shows that something is off. The way the siren is trying to convince him to get in the water, to let her take away his suffering. In the meantime, Odysseus is manipulating her back, telling lies and letting her eat them up. Making her tell him how to avoid Poseidon is so obvious to the listener, but the siren was so oblivious. The almost playful banter is peak. (Her little "of course" and "oh no" kill me every time. It's so cute~)

"Different Beast" is INTENSE. The way Odysseus talks/sings shows how much his personality and behaviour changed in "Monster." The "we" changing to "he" in the chorus makes this all the more obvious. The sirens pleading for being spared, Odysseus showing no mercy because he was already hurt as a result of it before. He couldn't allow himself to make the same mistake. Ordering to kill them all while surrounded by screams... "He is the man-made monster." Love this double-entendre.

"Scylla" is gorgeous. And again, it's very telling about Odysseus and his mental state. First, we have Scylla coaxing Eurylochus to reveal his secret to further the roots of distrust within the crew and adding another reason for the later on betrayals. I find Odysseus saying that there's not much to say quite interesting but also again, showing how he truly felt. He was done. He just wanted to go home. Then there's her speaking to Odysseus. He knew that he wouldn't get out of there with everyone alive. And she knew that he knew. "Deep down, we only care for ourselves." That was a huge callout to Odysseus. He always acts like everything he does is for his son and wife, but in fact, that's very selfish when constantly facing foes with his crew. He prioritizes himself going home over others, allowing them to die. "Deep down, we're lonely demons from hell." That line has so many implications, not only calling back to Odysseus just recently leaving the Underworld, but also him becoming the monster. The lonely part has only gradually increased since the death of Polites, with everyone starting to turn on each other, which would culminate soon after this encounter. The final monologue of Scylla tells more about Odysseus than her, honestly. He had to both shed and be witness to the shedding of blood. He also had to give up his ideals so he could go home. They are the same. They both have hands bathed in blood, which reminds me of Odysseus singing in "Monster" about his foes and how they did not regret doing what they felt was right.

"Mutiny." Eurylochus had had enough of Odysseus prioritizing himself going home. He was not the only one who had something to say about it, however. The rest of the crew were also mad at Odysseus' willingness to trade their lives for his family. Odysseus didn't want to fight. He wanted to deescalate the conflict, but it was futile. Eurylochus was tired of suffering, people around him dying, awful living conditions, starvation. That essentially became the crews doom. The callbacks to "Just A Man" and "Luck Runs Out" in this one are painful. Also, the musical motif from "Survive" when Odysseus woke up and Eurylochus monologued! I don't know if there's an official name for it, but I adore it. Also, Eurylochus and Odysseus have pretty much switched roles in this one. Except in both cases, "Keep Your Friends Close" and "Mutiny," it was actually Eurylochus angering the gods. Another reason for what would happen in the next song.

"Thunder Bringer" is probably my favourite from the saga at the moment. The melody, Zeus' voice, the LYRICS! Personifying pride and constantly referring it to Odysseus, trying to uncover Odysseus' true nature by giving him the choice between his own life and his crew. Considering everything we know about his choices so far, we can easily agree with Zeus when he thinks Odysseus would choose himself. Every callback to the chorus of "Just A Man" hurts, and this one is no different, almost fighting against Penelope's voice. While the soldiers remind him that he's become the monster, his wife offers relief from the suffering. His choice is obvious. The countless betrayals, his tiredness from all the years of war and travel... All he wants is to be welcomed home with open arms (reference intended). But wow, the final exchange between Odysseus and Eurylochus- Odysseus sounds so damn desperate and scared, and Eurylochus resigned to his fate. The truth is revealed. "Deep down, I would trade the world to see my son and wife. I'm just a man."

[the-lazyyy-artist]

Now that the live stream has concluded 45 minutes ago, and The Wisdom Saga is now live on Spotify, I spent some of my time to listen to the songs again (without headphones, I know I might've missed a few hints on the instruments and arrangements.)

So for now, here's my notes for this Saga (musically and story wise):

Legendary

The youthful touch of this song is just what this saga needs. MICO as Telemachus was a wonderful choice. His voice bounces within the song, and he sounds similar to Jorge's so it's like... He is his dad's son.

Story wise? It laid down a clear picture of what's happened 7 years later. His need to be stronger to protect his mother safe, especially that Ody's away.

It sounds like it's wishful thinking in a song.

Little Wolf

Oh my god, my anger in this song. I was scowling the whole time. Jorge is so good at painting a picture in the song. The taunting in the song, the way they challenge Telemachus.

I love how this songs sounds like a video game soundtrack, like Tekken (and the way the animatic looked like Tekken). Athena's entrance? Amazing. Telemachus being a geeky kid? AMAZING! He's such a kid, I love it!

I love Athena so much!!!

We'll Be Fine

Teagen's voice? Angelic! I thought her very best song was My Goodbye, but she really topped it with this one. I loved how she and Telemachus' sang Odysseus' melody in Warrior of The Mind. It's a wonderful touch that shows they're both longing for the same person.

The way MICO sounds so youthful??? He sounds so geeky and a teenager who's so excited about something. It's adorable!

Ody and Telemachus really see Athena as a friend. It's so touching.

Love In Paradise

This is the song I'VE BEEN SO EXCITED FOR (along with God Games). One thing I love: the flashbacks. Jorge really did a great job with the placement and tied every saga perfectly. I literally had chills when she finally saw what happened in Thunder Bringer.

Calypso. Calypso, my darling. Her voice is just so pure, so summery. She gave me summer vibes, seriously. It's kinda reminds me of TWICE's Alcohol Free, for real. Oh my god.

We've heard clips of this song before, and now that they recorded this song again, they sound so mature and clear. Oh god, I love this song so much!

Odysseus really be losing his mind. He was really losing it. Athena is the only one who can save her, and the way he screamed Athena's name. Oh my god, it broke me so hard!!

God Games

Luke Holt's voice... That's it. He sounds so big and scary. I love how his voice digs deep, the growls, it's even better than Thunder Bringer.

I was so excited about Apollo's voice. I did imagine him to sound a little cute, kinda like Yuuji in the English dub lol! So adorable! The little harp melody!! Uggh!!

HEPHAESTUS!!! okay, okay, the way he sang "Trust is not given not forged" was in the tune of Scylla and Mutiny ("I will not let you get into my way"), and it's UGGHH because that's the part where TRUST was tested. Oh my god JORGE!!!!

Aphrodite and Ares, my little sweethearts! Ngl, the animatic between Aphro and Athena was... Ughhhh!! I love Ares, I'VE ALWAYS LOVED ARES! Their voices fit them so well!! Athena fighting back to Ares for badmouthing Telemachus??? Holy shit.

Hera is so groovy!!!! So so groovy!!! I can imagine her throne room as a little dance floor!! And Zeus!!! Oh my god, Luke Holt!!! LUKE HOLT!!! PLEASE!!! STOP I'M OBSESSED!!!!

And Athena, oh my god. I wanna hug her. Her voice when she sang "let him go, please." Oh God, it's hurting me so bad. The animatic really didn't help because I was bawling!!!!

In conclusion, Jorge you smart and amazing person! You are creating a masterpiece!!!! This will be so big on stage, I can't wait till that happens!!!!

[dootznbootz]

I don't know about you, but I'm a bit mixed about Calypso in EPC. I mean, her songs are good, her singer's quite talented, so I don't have a problem... musically, at least.

But, story-wise, Calypso seems a bit too victim-like in my taste. "I'm not sorry for loving you" seems like it wants to make us sympathize with her and to consider her as Odysseus' friend.

While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her.

On the plus side, "Love in paradise" affirms she's the powerful one and Odysseus later confirms he doesn't love her romantically (plus Athena's 'he never cheated on his wife' line in "God games")

So it won't be detrimental for OdyPen 🥰.

What do you think ?

Oh, I'm definitely mixed about Calypso in Epic. As just like you said:

"While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her."

The Epic Fandom already DOES forget what happens in the Odyssey or think that they are the same thing. :/ I see stuff talking about Scylla in how Odysseus lights the torches and yet, it's tagged as "Odyssey". I love "light up six torches" as it's very dark but also very painful for Epic!Odysseus and that's really fun!

But I get saddened when people think that happened in the Odyssey ;~; as it's one of my favorite parts where Odysseus, knowing that Circe warned him, still goes to put on his armor to try and fight Scylla himself. He tried so fucking hard to save them. And they all grieved later on together. Eurylochus does mutiny in both but in the Odyssey, it isn't because of Scylla or anything. They were all just...Hungry ;~;

That's not even talking about how the Epic Fandom was when we only got the snippet of "There are other ways" ;~;

I still remember when there were jokes about how Odysseus is just like Hamilton and "Couldn't say No to this." Also Circe never did that to "protect her nymphs" in the Odyssey. She did it for funsies as she's a goddess and can do what she wants. That doesn't mean he was happy though.

I DO trust Jay to do well with Calypso's island. While I really am nervous about "I'm not Sorry for Loving you." like very nervous. I think HE'LL also make it clear that Odysseus isn't well or happy. As he has that cut song with the lyrics of:

"Is this some kind of trick? Pretending I can go Because if so, you're sick My heart's already broken"

So even though he cut that song because the beat and the music did NOT fit the situation, I'm very sure he'll have another like it showing Odysseus' despair and suffering.

I just... sighs I'm in a funky situation where I love Epic. I love it a lot. I think it's a genuinely good and fun retelling. I think while some spots are inaccurate, some are still really neat. I just get sad about this almost...disdain towards the actual Odyssey?

"Oh, Odysseus doesn't mention Penelope and Telemachus as much as he does in Epic-" Yes, he does. It's in so many of the metaphors and there's so many moments where he's clearly thinking about them. I love singing Penelope's name longingly too but an ancient epic poem is gonna be a lil different xD

"Oh Polites isn't really in it-" ...And?? That's okay. You enjoy Jay's character he created who really isn't in the Odyssey as much.

"Odysseus is such a manwhore in the Odyssey-" I am beating you over the head with a fucking rock.

Jay is clearly so fucking passionate and cares about this story so so much (he had a MENELAUS SONG (I grieve it's loss every day ;~; THEY CAN BOTH SIMP FOR THEIR HOT AF WIVES)) He had other characters planned!

But yeah ;~; I get so fucking sad every time someone talks about Epic being better than the Odyssey. Like even JAY wanted to clear that up that "hey, the Odyssey is really cool! I mean I wrote this because I love it so much." and yet... people don't wanna know or even TRY to understand what happens in the actual Epics.

I have hope. I just hope the FANDOM follows through.

[homicidal-sheep]

I will defend Eurylochus to my dying breath because what the fuck yall, he is not the malicious monster people are making him out to be?? Like these characters are so morally grey its not even funny.

I love Ody with all my heart but the man did fuck up. He is human, and a plaything of the Gods, which is a very dangerous position to be in at the best of times.

I've seen people saying Eury has no moral high ground on the Scylla thing because he wanted to leave all the men at Circe's. Now firstly, I highly doubt a simple scouting mission would include all the men (see Cyclops saga, when only a fraction went). So they would be running to save what men remained, not ditching the entire army. Secondly, what exactly did you want them to do when facing Circe? They didn't know Hermes was there. All they knew was there was a magic lady who could turn people into pigs. So what, were they gonna ask really really nicely? Somehow I highly doubt that would work. Without the Gods intervention, I just don't see them winning. Eury was cutting their losses because from his POV, there was quite literally nothing they could do for the men. Best case scenario they snuck the men/pigs out and, idk, kept them as pets??

As for the wind bag, yeah it was a really dumb decision. But Ody is the one who decided not to trust his men, especially Eury. Ody has already given up on the crew, and they likely feel that distrust. Why should they put their blind faith in a man who refuses to clue them in? Why should they believe that he has whats best for them in their hearts? Ody's own guilt caused him to embrace an ideology that got a bunch of them killed. (remember when he said the only one who's lines he hasn't crossed were his own?) And we can see some of this growing resentment in Perimedes cut song. We as viewers have context the men simply do not.

Sidenote, people say Eury would have gotten them lotus'd. Yeah maybe. or maybe Ody would have recognized the fruit before they ate it, like he did with Polites. We cannot know.

The other point I keep seeing, that I find absolutely baffling is "well they deserved to die for mutinying, they should have listened to their king and captain" I'm sorry when did we all become monarchists. Kings and captains can absolutely make bad decisions? We should not blindly trust authority?? Yeah Eury kept questioning the captain. He was second in command and the voice of the crew, not only is he voicing their discontent, I'd argue that a good king should have someone who is willing to disagree with them. While Ody is right, that in the middle of a dire situation isn't great, and it would have been better to address those issues in private, they are very legitimate worries. If your captain has admitted he would burn the world to see his son and wife, I think being a little worried is absolutely fair.

The Gods keep appearing and helping Ody but they are also incredibly dangerous beings who constantly play with the lives of mortals.

On to the cow thing. Ya it was fucking dumb. But I can understand why. The man is fucking tired. They don't see a way out and at that point, starving to death slowly, so desperately afraid, probably sounded like a terrifying fate. Better to get it over with.

And he still cares! Ody is his literal brother in law. They bandaged his wounds when they could have idk, sacrificed him to Posideon or something. What Ody did to them was 100% betrayal and I understand why they mutinied, with what information they had. For petes sake he kept singing "I need to get home", I, not we.

Again, I love Ody, but good lord, the man is the definition of an unreliable narrator. Let them all be complicated, tragic characters without labeling them as cookie cutter good guys and bad guys.

[theultimatenonbinarynerd]

Eurylochus's God Games

Introduction

Hello Epic Fans, I'm very excited to share with you something that's part of a Eurylochus Lives Au I'm pulling together.

Even before God Games came out I was really interested in the idea of other Epic characters having to have their own God Games to release them or let them live. Eurylochus is such a complex character and I knew right away thinking about a God Games about Eurylochus would be interesting as the arguments made for and against him would should the complex duality of his character.

So I then decided I was going to try use Jay's snippets we'd been given and conjure up my own version of Eurylochus's God Games. Honestly it was just a concept but then I wanted to use it for my au where Eurylochus gets resssurected from the dead.

Doing these snippets helped me really understand which God's should be swapped around or swapped out entirely. So I kept Aphrodite and Ares but added in Helios, Poseidon and Persephone. Ares, Aphrodite and Beaat Mode Hades were the hardest to write whilst Helios and Poseidon's were the easier parts. We are talking about the man that literally killed his cows and Poseidon would be mad Eurylochus spared Odysseus during Mutiny.

Then now with the release of The Wisdom Saga the parody has perfectly come together like glue. It was really hard though cos I didn't want all the arguments to be about what happened on Helios's island. But the Windbag and Helios's island are such important parts of Eurylochus's character arc.

Honestly it's not perfect but I'm really proud how this parody turned out. It's still got the high stakes and drama and it's super intresting. I hope I can inspire people to make their own games for other characters.

___________________________________________

___________________________________________

Conclusion

I wanted to save this for my Eurylochus Lives au but I've realised that it's too far in the future right now with how busy life is and due to how good it is I wanted to share it. Never in my life did I think I'd be writing a song parody where Circe becomes Eurylochus's lawyer but it's super cool.

I have to say Eurylochus is such a cool character and his reverse character arc compared to Odysseus is what makes him so interesting. A lot of Circes defences are what Epic fans have said and I hope the defences also humanise him a bit. Fingers crossed for that Eurylochus prequel.

Honestly it was really fun writing the parody and including other God's who don't have the spotlight in Epic. Helios is a super fun character to write and he will be in some of my other fics but in Eurylochus's God Games he is both super petty and considered about his challenging the Lord of The Underworld.

Any questions about my Eurylochus Lives au my asks are open.

I'm gonna share bits of the parody on tik tok but that's all I can do I'm afraid.

Happy reading Eurylochus fans.

-Melody-

They/Them

Tags: @tumblingghosts @caramellcandy

[helpami-flaffy]

EPIC THE MUSICAL OPINIONS, VERY OPINIONS, VERY MINE.

IF YOU DON'T WANT SOME NEGATIVITY DON'T READ. THIS IS NOT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE I SWEAR.

MOSTLY COMPILED AT NIGHT, SOME REVISION.

PLEASE DO NOT COME AT ME.

.....................

After this saga I'm left kind of perplexed about epic.

What is epic trying to say here? What's the musical's stance on ruthlessness?

Because it isn't very clear to me anymore.

Is it bad? Is it good and just? Is it a necessary evil? Is it worth becoming something monstrous just to achieve your goals?

The thing I'm trying to say is:

Is epic a tragedy or a triumph?

Until the vengeance saga I thought it was the former, but now I'm not so sure.

Throughout the story Odysseus takes desicions that either side with what I'll call the 'open arm mentality' or the 'ruthless' mentality.

He gets punished for both a number of times.

He kills Astianax so he doesn't have to fear his future vengeance.

He spares Polyphemus and that leads to 558 men dying.

He appeals to Circe's humanity and that leads her to freeing his men and helping him get to the underworld.

He sacrificed 6 men to Scylla and that leads to 'mutiny' and 'thunder bringer' where the rest of his crew dies and he ends up in calypso's island where she imprisoned him for 7 years.

First act of ruthlessness= good outcome

First act of open arms= bad outcome

Second act of open arms= good outcome

Second act of ruthlessness= bad outcome

(I forgot to add the sirens, that encounter is kinda strange tho.  Ody kills all of them but I wouldn't call that ruthlessness. Ruthlessness is doing whatever needs doing to get what you want. He needed to know how to get home, and killing the sirens after doesn't matter in that context. I guess it's good for future sailors? I'll count this as an altruistic positive I guess)

This breakdown isn't perfect, lots of other things happen and some things Ody does can't really be neatly categorized by this simple metric imo, but I'll continue anyway as it feels to me the story breaks down his actions in a sort of similar dichotomy.

All in all the 'good to bad' ratio seems pretty balanced, right? It's not always ruthlessness that wins the day, and 'open arms' solutions don't always work out.

So why does it feel like we're supposed to root for ruthless Odysseus? Why does it feel like the story wants us to believe that being the monster is a good if 'somewhat sad' outcome?

Why am I saying this? Well, it's 600 strikes.

Actually just- all the vengeance saga.

Why is what Ody does here supposed to be cool and awesome? Because, like, that is absolutely the angle here.

Complete with a, honestly absurd, anime power up and fighting-god-one-on-one moment.

Why does the story break down it's logic,  breaks suspension of disbelief (at least for me), to get Odysseus into a position were he can torture Poseidon into letting him go?

Wich?? Btw should not work??

Why is this how he wins?

Why are the ghosts of his friends and family no longer spectres of regrets for but terrifying promises of death?

What does this say? Was Odysseus wrong about their sacrifice? Was regret ever only a noose around his neck? I'm looking too deeply into this one lol.

In 'get in the water' we even get the obligatory appeal to Poseidon's mercy just to hammer down once again that 'open arms' doesn't work, even tho it's Athena's appeal to her father's mercy that set Odysseus free in the first place.

The saga ends with Poseidon asking Odysseus how he'll sleep at night after all of this and Ody, in admittedly the coldest line ever written on paper, says:

"Next to my wife"

...

This is cool.

Extremely cool even.

But that's kind of the problem I have with it.

The song ends in a badass way. This is meant to be the final zing to seal Odysseus' cool ass victory.

And in all of this, not once, does the story seem to recognize that...well...

Poseidon won.

Hell not even Poseidon recognized it!

I'm not even saying "OoOh if it was realistic Poseidon would have have won!" (Tho yeah, ask me about that, lol)

In the great ideological battle that's at the center of Epic: the musical, Poseidon was the ultimate victor.

Ruthless is what wins at the end, it's what gets Odysseus home. Odysseus might be a monster but he's a victorious one.

I feel people and the musical both don't really acknowledge that.

That even if Poseidon lost the battle he ultimately won the war.

Were is the irony? Where's the bitterness and sorrow? We're Poseidon's bloodied, mocking smirk revelling in his victory?

Is Epic a tragedy or a power fantasy?

[gale-gentlepenguin]

Epic The Musical what if

(What if Eurylochus died instead of Polites?)

-We can say that most of the Troy saga would be the same. From (The Horse and the infant. To Polyphemus)

-The big change is during survive, when Polyphemus reveals his club and goes to strike Polites, but by a change of fate. Odysseus notices a second sooner, pushing Polites out of the way, saving them both. But Eurylochus wasn’t so lucky.

-The club killed him. And Odysseus felt a rage. This is what happens when you approach with open arms.

-Remember them changes to. “Avenge them.”

-Odysseus does the same plan as before. Blinding the cyclops. But the difference was that he felt a new burning rage. A hatred for these cyclops. They killed the blinded Polyphemus.

-They weren’t leaving until they killed the giants on the island.

-Polites pleads that they killed enough. But Odysseus berates him. Saying that his weakness is what made Eurylochus die. If they had attacked first they would have won.

-Odysseus experiences a different version of “My goodbye” as Athena leaves him because he is now acting more like Ares than a student of hers.

-Polites was against the several months they spent hunting and killing those giants

- Odysseus and his crew end up killing the giants on the island. And restocked on food. They leave the island. When a storm hits. (Basically the same result where they see the sky island)

- Luck runs out plays but with a slight change. It’s Polites suggesting that they don’t interact with the wind god. That they leave and not push their luck. But Odysseus ignores his advice.

-Odysseus gets the bag of winds. And the shenanigans ensues.

-The winds bring them to Poseidon. Who is a LOT more pissed off. Yea they killed his son, but they killed his sons. And in their brutality, Poseidon found out it was Odysseus that did it. And he is brutal. Killing most of the crew. The song Ruthlessness is the same but it talks about the difference between Ruthlessness and vengeance.

-They escape cause the wind bag.

-after this Polites actually tells Odysseus that the cruelty is what caused them this pain. That they need compassion.

-Puppeteer happens but with Polites being the one to return and he tells Odysseus that they need a plan. He was not going to leave them to be pigs like Eurylochus.

-Basically “Wouldn’t you like” and “Done for” happen the same. But Odysseus kills Circe thanks to Hermes’s giving him the power. This unfortunately means that there was no way of turning the men back from pigs.

-Polites pointed out that they could have saved their men if they had talked to her. But Odysseus points out that she was trying to kill them. And he chose them.

-Because of this, Polites speaks up. He says that Odysseus went too far.

-Fortunately Hermes shows up and helps them get to the underworld (he is the messenger)

-It’s there where the underworld saga occurs. And the underworld song has Odysseus hear Eurylochus instead of Polites.

-No longer you is the same

-“Monster” is sung but with a different inflection. Odysseus realizes he has become a monster and resolves to try and be more compassionate. War had made him lose himself

-“suffering” was the same, but “Different beast” is very different as when the Syrens were captured. They made a deal, if the Syrens helped the crew navigate passed Scylla. They would spare them.

-Unfortunately, this plan failed as the Syrens betrayed them to Scylla and they lost 6 men.

-Mutiny occurs but not because of Polites orchestrating it. But Perimedes.

-Polites tried to stop it. But the crew caught Odysseus off guard and He and Polites were captured.

-The crew killed the cow on the island of the Sun god. And of course Zeus shows up.

-But he had a twist. Since Polites had sided with Odysseus. Polites would not be killed in the crew part of the decision.

-The ship is destroyed as the result of Thunderbringer.

-Odysseus and Polites wake up on Calypso’s island. Where Polites accepts the hospitality with open arms. Odysseus is missing his wife and mourning his mistakes. Polites does help keep Ody from being suicidal.

-The events of the wisdom saga are the same, though the flashbacks are altered.

-Eventually after seven years, divine intervention does kick in. But Calypso isn’t as hard to convince to let Odysseus go. She decided she liked Polites more. And Polites agreed to stay with Calypso. Odysseus apologizes to Polites for not heeding his advice and now he’s stuck there.

-But Polites assures him that he was doing what he thought was right. The song is altered to “Don’t be sorry” he has a hot goddess wife.

-Odysseus thanks them both. Telling them he loves them both. And wishing them all the happiness.

-Odysseus then heads off with the help of Hermes.

-Odysseus eventually gets home. Kills the suitors and reunites with his wife and son.

-Odysseus receives a message from Polites. To remember to receive this return to his life with open arms.