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silverducks · 4 years ago

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Jaime Lannister - Honour vs Loyalty

And why I didn’t like his ending.

Ok, so I was going to write a post about my thoughts on how they ended the show for Jaime Lannister, but it was getting very, very long, so it will have to wait for another day. Because yes, nearly a month after I finished watching the series, I’m still not over that.

Anyway, as that post was getting very long, I thought I’d just focus on this one thing here, and that’s the idea of honour vs loyalty and how it effects Jaime as a character.

Spoilers below (cause I’m sure there’s still a few people in the world who don’t know yet how it ends.)

Ok, so to say it bugs me that Jaime went back to Cersei at the end of the series and died in her arms is putting it mildly. No matter how much I try to reconcile it, or watch/read people’s opinions on it, I just can’t get it to make sense. It’s more than a bit frustrating.

For me, it makes no sense that, after all that character development, after everything he went through and everything he watched his sister do, after finding another woman who not only believed in the good in him, but helped bring it out, he decides to run back to Cersei.

Now, I’ll leave most of my thoughts on that in the other post (I have a lot, lol!) and just wanted to focus on here the idea that Jaime’s ending is somehow tied up with his concept of honour vs loyalty. Or at least in how I’ve read people try to justify it.

Ok, so I’ve not read the books yet, but I’ve read enough quotes/analysis and opinions online to know that after about series 4, Jaime’s character takes a very different path to what we have in the show. So I’m only really talking about the show here. Also, I have only watched it all once, recently in a marathon watch, so there’ll be loads of stuff I’ve missed or forgotten.

And I’ve read/watched enough online to know a lot of people are also very annoyed that Jaime went back to Cersei. In fact, most of what’s been bugging me is based on comments I’ve read on YouTube or series 8 reviews. The main video, or review, mentions that they don’t like how they assassinated Jaime’s character arc, but then there are discussions in the comments saying that for some they do think it makes sense.

Now, I’m not saying they’re wrong, but I do disagree with some of the main justifications they have said. One of these is that people say it was honourable for Jaime to return to Cersei at the end. That it made sense for his character to return to his sister and it did complete his character arc.

My thoughts on that are basically NOPE! You’ve misunderstood the point of his character arc. I’ll save most of my thoughts for the other post, but to summarise, for me, Jaime’s character arc has been both about redemption and identity. It’s been about becoming a better person and trying to make amends for your past mistakes, but also about finding your own voice, your own thoughts and your own inner self. And, as both these arcs are tied together for Jaime, overall his whole character arc was about him breaking away from Cersei and, through doing that, becoming a better person.

Yeah, I know that sounds kinda corny and simplified, but, for me, that’s overall been Jaime’s character arc. He’s had plenty of slip ups (cough mainly the writers refusing to let Twincest go cough), but overall he’s grown as a person, so what we see in series 8 up to that scene in episode 4, is a better, changed person. As he says to Bran, “I’m not that man anymore.”

This means the fact that he just goes back to her at the end, does indeed ruin his whole character arc. And I honestly can’t get it to make any sense in way that isn’t JUST because the writers decided he should.

So, if we then consider the idea that it’s somehow honourable for him to go back to Cersei… Ok, I can see why people may think that, but for me, it’s not honour, it’s loyalty. Honourable would be to continue on the better path, acknowledging that your sister has done wrong, continues to do wrong and has gone down the opposite path. Jaime’s path has been about redemption, Cersei’s has been one of villainy.

Cersei needs to pay for her crimes as it were and that is, imho, the honourable thing to do. Now pay for your crimes doesn’t mean anything as awful as torture or that walk of shame (no, even though Cersei tortured others, I’d never say the same should be done to her). But as she’s never shown any remorse for what she’s done (unlike Jaime, who then had 7 series of redemptive arc making up for it), it’s not honourable for Jaime to go back to try and save her, to think they can just run off together. Of course, I know and understand both Jaime’s and also Tyrion’s inability to just let her die – they instinctively want to try to help her because she’s their sister. That’s why Tyrion still keeps on trying to plead with her. If Jaime was already in Kings Landing he could do the same.

No, the issue is he leaves Brienne in the dead of night, breaking her heart and saying how hateful he is, rides all the way to Kings Landing just to be with Cersei. Especially when he knows it’s pretty much a suicide mission and won’t make any difference. That is not honourable - to want to die with your evil twin sister so she’s not alone. That is loyalty.

And, this brings me back to the whole honour vs loyalty issue with Jaime, and why series 8 messed it up imho. In the earlier series, we see that Jaime is very loyal to his House, as is everyone in Westeros really. And usually loyalty is seen as a good trait – in our world as well as the world of GoT. And the Lannisters are even more focused on their loyalty as we see from Tywin. Your house/family is it and you pledge loyalty and are willing to die for them. So him being willing to do all he can to save his sister, that is loyalty.

And Jaime is very loyal to his house. But he’s also a Knight and Brienne is right, there is also honour in him. Something she first found out when he told her about why he killed the Mad King, and something that she has been slowly encouraging and bringing out in Jaime ever since.

Yet what do you do if your House/family are not honourable? The Lannisters as a House have done all sorts of bad things, including things like organising the Red Wedding and Cersei’s attack on the Sept. What do you do then, when your honour conflicts with your loyalty? This, for me, is one of the biggest struggles for Jaime’s character and so imperative in his overall character arc.

This is something that is brought up in the tent scene between Brienne and Jaime – they both know there is no honour (ie, it’s not the right, moral thing to do) to attack and kill the Tully rebels when they are defending the home the Lannister’s took from them. But he is a Lannister. And this is a big struggle for Jaime – as he’s trying to be more honourable and become a better person, his loyalty to his House and family are more and more at odds with that. Even more so when you consider his complicated relationship with his sister.

In that situation, he found an alternative; a way to still be loyal to his house, by taking back RiverRun, but also be honourable, by making sure no blood was spilt.

And for me, as Jaime grows in his character arc, he starts to choose honour over loyalty more and more (eg giving Brienne the Quest to find Sansa rather than killing Sansa at Cersei’s request and then freeing Tyrion against his sister and father’s wishes.) This culminates in the scene where Brienne challenges him outright in the Dragon Pit. There is no alternative here; he can do the right, honourable thing and join the fight for mankind, or he can choose to remain loyal to his sister and Queen and not help.

Now, we know this isn’t an easy decision for Jaime, but eventually, he does just that. He chooses the honourable thing by going to the North to help them. And that is, imho, where he finally and fully breaks away from Cersei and becomes his own person.

So, for me, the idea that it is honourable for him to return to Cersei goes against his whole character arc. It ruins his identity arc, because he once more stops being his own person, stops making his own decisions and is all focused on Cersei again. And it goes against his redemption arc, by choosing loyalty above honour, by returning to her and trying to save her after everything she has done.

That is not honour, it is loyalty, which is basically taking Jaime back to the start – where he always did choose loyalty over honour and it made him do some pretty darn bad things.

So, for me, for a Jaime that had been through so much, come so far in his character arc, his identity and redemption, to return to Cersei like that is a complete 180 and a waste of those 7 years of character development we saw.

And it makes no sense.

#Game of Thrones #Jaime Lannister

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nyangibun · 6 years ago

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GoT S08E03 Thoughts

The fuck???

I actually have no idea how to feel about this episode or what was really even happening because jfc, the lighting was so dark and everything was moving so fast. At one point, I was wondering who the f I was even watching.

I feel with retrospect, I’ll have a lot more to say, but as these posts are my immediate thoughts, here we go.

We got another shot of Alys Karstark for apparently no reason. It’s weird that we were introduced to her in S7 so we know what she looks like and we keep seeing her in S8 without any payoff. Most characters we recognise that appear on screen serve a purpose. Ned Umber showed up because he needed to die for the Night King’s Cool Abstract Art. But seriously, I know non-Jonsa’s think the kidnap plot is ‘delusional’ but tell me, what purpose does Alys serve? Maybe it’s not a kidnap plot but I believe there will be some kind of mistaken identity or switch. I don’t know. I really don’t know why else she would keep reappearing in every episode thus far -- not to mention Sophie Turner’s behind-the-scenes photo where she is wearing a similar dress to what Alys was wearing in Ep 1.

I have a gripe with this episode (amongst others). Why the hell is Ghost out there? Why is he running with Jorah and the Dothrakis? Even if he is going to fight in this battle, it doesn’t make sense he’d choose to do so alongside people he doesn’t even know. Also, we didn’t get a death scene so is he alive? Did they seriously CGI Ghost in 2 episodes to do absolutely fuck all and then die? I will riot in the streets, D&D.

Speaking of the Dothraki, what was the damn point of them? They literally died in 0.5 seconds. That was it. I know people had to die and hordes of ‘em but it felt like a complete waste of the Dothraki plotline. Also, didn’t Dani take all of the fighting men to Westeros to fight in her damn war? So now the entire Dothraki civilisation is basically massacred and there’s only the women and children left? Like damn, talk about a bad time. The Dothraki randomly charging like that was dumb AF as well. Why would you charge into an army that you know is 3-4 times the size of yours? I’m no battle strategist but I feel like that was a dumb idea.

In terms of the battle, I really don’t know what to say. There were cool moments (ie. Arya being a badass and killing wights left and right) and then there were just wtf moments. My issue with the battle sequence was mostly just the sensory overload. There was so much going on everywhere at the same time and it was hard to keep track of what was actually going on. I also felt a little underwhelmed by the usefulness of the dragons. I suppose it was to say that the dragons can be defeated and are not the tide-changing weapons they have been in the past, which doesn’t bode well for them in the future. Btw, did Rhaegal die? Like... he fell out of the sky? And then disappeared? Are we down to just Drogon?

And now, a moment of silence for our fallen brethren: Edd (thank you for saving Sam), Lyanna (my badass child, thank you for so cooly killing that giant), Beric (thank you for saving Arya) and Theon (wtf Bran?! you really knew our boy was gonna die and you were all ‘you’re a good man’ and then that’s it?!).

Okay, that’s not fair. I guess Bran saying that to Theon allowed him to reach full circle with his redemption arc. He has fully atoned for his sins against House Stark. But I still think his death was bullshit. Although I loved the moment between Bran and Theon when Bran tells him that all of his decisions had led him here: home. That was definitely what Theon needed to hear and I am glad he got that before he died.

I just want to talk about Jonerice. The scene before the battle starts, they are standing overlooking the battlegrounds together, but there is a considerable amount of distance between them physically. The framing is definitely still pitting them at odds with each other since last episode’s reveal. And their conversation is also heavy with tension. It’s a good reminder that Dance of Dragons 2.0 is very much still on the table despite them working together in this episode, though that isn’t going to last long.

Jorah’s unwavering love and loyalty to Dani serves as the perfect foil to Jonerice’s weak and unconvincing romance. Time and time again, he has proven the depth of his feelings for Dani and it is him that comes to her rescue, not Jon (though ofc Jon has bigger fish to fry). And despite her not reciprocating her feelings for him, Jorah is someone she cared about and I think his death will be something she holds against the North. What I mean by that is she will think that because she has fought for the North and lost half of her army and someone she loves, they must bend the knee or else. I mean I get where she’s coming from 100%. Dani risked a lot to fight, whether her reason was altruistic or not, she has. But the problem is the North can’t afford to fight in her war with Cersei. And yes, she fought for them but they have also been through hell serving foreign rulers. This is going to be a huge point of conflict going forward but we already knew that. Now there’s just this added element.

Also, wait... Both Lyanna and Jorah are dead. What happens to House Mormont now? Is there even another Mormont left?

I know there weren’t any Jon x Sansa interactions and that sucks, I admit, but it’s also okay. I was happy with Tyrion and Sansa’s interactions there. Sansa has effectively said goodbye to all of her potential suitors. When Tyrion says ‘maybe they should’ve stayed married’ and Sansa responds with ‘it wouldn’t work between us; we have divided loyalties’, that ends all of the speculations that Tyrion and Sansa would re-marry or legitimize their marriage. And Sansa’s right. After the battle is over, the politics begin and their loyalties are divided. Tyrion is loyal to Dani who wants the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms, and Sansa is loyal to House Stark and Northern Independence. Like I said, this is going to be a huge focus in the upcoming episodes for all of the characters. They came together despite differences to fight for the living but now they will have to choose sides on the future of the living. Tyrion and Sansa will be on opposite sides but I do maintain that Tyrion will eventually lose faith in Dani and betray her.

In any case, Sansa basically points out that in order for a marriage to work, their loyalties and thus their goals for the future would have to be the same. Now, whose loyalties and goals coincide with Sansa’s? Jon. They are both loyal to House Stark first and foremost and then to the North. At this point, let’s be honest, there are no more eligible bachelors that we know of in Westeros. I mean technically, there’s Jaime, but as if that would happen with all of the Braime scenes this season and the lack of any interaction between Sansa and Jaime. I also don’t think Jaime will survive the season. I hope he does but I just don’t have a lot of faith he will. Redemption arcs and all that. Jon still remains her most viable option to further the House Stark line. Unless everyone dies in the end, succession is an important aspect of the story.

I also remember someone mentioning that Tyrion could be a possible reason why Sansa gets kidnapped, as in he’ll betray her to save his skin when Bronn comes to kill him. I don’t know how much I believe this tbh but he does say that Sansa underestimates the lengths he’ll go to in order to avoid being apart of the Army of the Dead. While he is talking presently and maybe only about dying and becoming one of them, he might mean death itself. Take what you will. I’m not sure how much I believe in this theory.

As for Arya, well, what is there to say? She is the best and I love her. I really didn’t expect it at the start of this episode she’d be the one to kill the Night King but after Melissandre’s comment to her, it was pretty obvious. I don’t really have anything to say about that just that I love her and want to protect her. I also like Melissandre a lot and Beric and hers are the only deaths in this episode that gave me a sense of closure. Their story had come to an end and it made sense. For everyone else, I am still very wtf about it.

Anyway, so let’s do a head count of the survivors: all the Starks (Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa), Tormund, Brienne, Jaime, Sam, The Hound, Dani, Drogon, Missandei, Tyrion, Varys, Gendry, Davos...

People I have no idea if they survived: Podrick? Gilly and lil Sam? Ghost? Rhaegal? Grey Worm? Alys?

Am I missing anyone?

#jonsa #game of thrones #jon x sansa #anti jonerys #anti daenerys #spoilers #got spoilers #got s8 #my thoughts #long post

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jonsafan-blog · 6 years ago

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Why Jon Didn’t Look For More Allies Before the Battle of the Bastards - and Why Political Jon is Right

Before Jon and Sansa set out to petition the houses of the North to join their war, they thought it would be difficult but not impossible. While Sansa definitely appeared the more optimistic and idealistic of the two, I think Jon also believed the houses would be open to joining their cause.

It makes sense. They were always told Northerners were different and more loyal.

However, that didn’t happen. They only managed to secure three houses in the show: The Mormonts, the Hornwoods, and the Mazins. Three small houses.

Crucially, we only see the petitioning of two houses: the Mormonts and the Glovers - a success and a failure.

It is heavily implied in the show and the books that the Mormonts are the Stark loyalists. It was, after all, little Lyanna Mormont who declared her loyalty to the Starks in a letter to Stannis, and in the television show, this loyalty is more prominent in the way Mormont hypes the Starks after retaking Winterfell.

However, winning over Lyanna was not guaranteed. What Jon and Sansa misunderstood and what Jorah did is that, ultimately, the common people don’t care about the games the high lords play. Neither do their vassals. We see this in the petitioning: Loyal Lyanna had very strong reservations. She was loyal to the Starks, but she didn’t want to fight a losing war and have her people slaughtered. She had already lost so many of her family members because of a war between high lords.

I don’t think she would have turned the Starks away for lodging and would have likely helped them find safety. However, I don’t believe she was willing to help them take back Winterfell. It was only on the word of Davos, an insignificant but practical man who understands the common people, that Lyanna was moved to protect her people from the Great War and support the Starks.

This was not an easy win. Jon and Sansa weren’t going to sway her, and Lyanna is very different from the other houses because she is a Mormont: her grandfather served on the Wall, made Jon his steward, and gave him Longclaw. She also likely received letters from the Wall that she trusted were true. She had every reason to believe in the Great War, while the other houses did not. She was likely looking for some leadership on the threat already.

But it wasn’t an easy win. It was a lucky win.

And Jon and Sansa were painfully aware of that.

Unfortunately, this would be reinforced by their failures. We are shown the particular failure of petitioning house Glover, and I think that scene marked a moment in Jon that caused him to reconsider their plan to canvas the North for allies - not because they failed, but because it marked the point in which Jon decided to stop petitioning.

Glover didn’t want to fight for the Starks. Like Lyanna, he wasn’t sure if Jon or Sansa were true Starks because of their pasts. They preferred to protect their own families than fight for a bastard and a formerly married daughter with uncertain allegiances.

And unlike Lyanna, they didn’t have a lucky connection to convince Glover to fight.

In that scene, Glover wasn’t cruel, but there was an undercurrent of hostility that was absent with Lyanna. When Jon and Sansa spoke with Glover, and Glover reminded them what could happen if Ramsay knew they were there, I think Jon realized that petitioning the houses was gambling with their lives.

Because they weren’t Ned or Robb, Jon and Sansa couldn’t just send a letter to Glover and demand his support. They also could not march their armies into his castle. That meant they had to meet him personally to convince him to fight for their cause.

That is very dangerous, and something Jon realized immediately, though it seemed rather lost on Sansa, if I’m being honest.

What if Glover had decided to take them hostage or kill them? Many fans think Jon was protective of Sansa here, and I agree. Meanwhile, Sansa seemed reluctant to let go of the idea that the North would die for the Starks.

The truth is they wouldn’t. People fight for their loved ones, not strangers or outsiders. The North loved Ned Stark - they didn’t know Jon and Sansa enough to love them. They wouldn’t not die for them.

However... the Wildlings? They would die for Jon Snow, because he was willing to die for them.

The failure to secure the Glovers was proof to Jon that no house in the North could be trusted. Already the Umbers and the Karstarks betrayed the Starks, one family even taking Rickon hostage and turning him over to the Glovers.

Deepwood Motte is to the west of Winterfell, and Jon almost certainly decided after that failure that he could not risk going to another house. instead, he marched the army towards Winterfell and would fight with what they had - because there was no other option.

Jon went into the Battle of the Bastards because he knew a truth Sansa was not yet willing to accept: they had no allies because they did not have the love of their allies. Sansa knows the importance of love in vassals, she doesn’t doesn’t understand that North’s love is something she herself has to earn.

I think she is capable of it, and I think she secures it in season seven, but the point remains:

Jon learned that he had no allies willing to sacrifice their lives. So he took the army he had and risked it.

Fortunately, the Vale came at the last moment and saved the day, but I want to point out something here: Sansa may have sent a letter to Littlefinger, but those troops would have never been sent if Littlefinger didn’t play on the love Robin had for Sansa. It was a complicated affection, but I do believe Robin is meant to be understood as caring about her.

Notice too that Littlefinger used a trick on Robin: he made Robin believe he loved him like a son moreso than Royce loved him, and because of that Robin looked to Littlefinger for advice.

Love is very important in this series when it comes to family. No one does anything out of pure loyalty - they do it out of love. Brienne fought for Renly because she loved him. Cersei killed for her children because she loved them. Tyrion helped his family because he loved them, and then betrayed them because he felt unloved. Daenerys amassed an army of slaves she freed because they came to love her.

But why is this important for the Political Jon theory?

Ultimately, Robb failed not because he married Talisa, but because he could not secure the love of those under his command. He made serious mistakes that compromised the affection or trust his people had in him out of honor, and that ultimately led to his downfall.

Ned failed not because he stuck his nose where he shouldn’t, but because he chose the honorable path in doing so. He did not get his ducks in a row, leading to the destruction of his house.

Maester Aemon discusses with Jon in season one that his honor was tested because of the love he had for his family. He told Jon love would one day cause him to test his vows too.

Ned ultimately chose love over honor: instead of dying honorably, he was going to admit guilt to save the daughter he loved. Too late, unfortunately, but that’s the point: Ned should have chosen love to begin with - as he did when he saved Jon from Robert.

In season seven, Jon realizes they need more allies to defeat the White Walkers. However, he has no way to secure these allies. The North already had the Vale, but could not secure the Riverlands or any other kingdom.

However, there comes an opportunity: dragon glass and dragons in Daenerys. That is both weapon and fire - and armies, to fight the dead.

When Jon left Winterfell, he knew he needed to meet personally with Daenerys just like he needed to meet personally with the Northern houses in their petition. It was a risk, but one which had to be made.

But just like before, pleas for honor in the Great War did not sway Daenerys. Daenerys does not know Jon Snow at the beginning of the season, nor does she know the North. Jon becomes trapped, as he likely feared happening with Sansa while fighting Ramsay, and faced the very real threat that he would fail in securing allies.

However, Jon was unlikely to be lucky with a Lyanna or Vale surprise, meaning he had to approach the situation differently. He had to abandon his honor and choose love.

But here’s the thing: I don’t think he loves Daenerys. The point of everything I’m saying so far is that in order to get someone to fight for you, they must love you. They must also believe you love them back.

It doesn’t have to be true.

Tyrion loves his family. He believes his father hates him. He suspects Cersei might hate him. When this is confirmed in his eyes, he no longer is willing to fight for them.

Robin loves Sansa. He is willing to fight for her. He believes that Littlefinger loves him like a father. This is not true. Robin has no idea. He is willing to be misled by Littlefinger because of it.

Jon loves Ygritte. Ygritte loves Jon. Jon chooses honors over Ygritte and love for his Night’s Watch brothers. He regrets that. It breaks him like it broke Ned.

Interestingly, Jon loved the Night’s Watch, but the Night’s Watch believed he oved the Wildlings more. That is why the Night’s Watch betrayed him.

Jon leaves the Night’s Watch because they betrayed him. Jon cannot love his Night’s Watch brothers as he once did.

Jon lets Daenerys believe he likes her so she will be willing to fight for him, because allies need to love the person they are fighting for (romantically or platonically) in order to secure their allegiance.

What Jon lacked in season six, he made sure to secure in season seven through Daenerys.

Political Jon is Political Jon because Jon understands that love is what he needs to save his people, to save Sansa.

It’s always why the other characters in the story will ultimately fail because they misunderstand the power of love and power.

Cersei only loves her children, and was very open about this. That is why she will fail. Sansa even notices this. She’s a slow learner though, which is why she didn’t realize the North did not love her yet.

Margaery knew this point powerfully. She made sure that the common people loved her to secure power. She failed to secure the love of Cersei (not that she would have succeeded) and Cersei, when seeing her as a threat for the love of Tommen, ended her life.

Daenerys has secured the love of the Dothraki and the freed slaves. She has not secure the love of Westeros and may be uncapable of it, given how she has approached conflict in Westeros so far.

But Jon and Sansa?

This has been their entire journey so far. Not just to be practical and honroable leaders, but lovable leaders. Jon learned that he needs to secure the love of his allies in order to secure loyalty. Interestly, he understood this through practice before he understood it as a theory.

Sansa is the complete opposite: she understood the theory right away, but didn’t see it until practice (because she was unexperienced) until she actually had to rule the North in Jon’s absence.

But together I think we have a couple poised to secure the love of their people, and I think it is only natural they would also be King and Queen together too. They are the only characters moving towards this path of love over honor.

#jonsa #jon snow #sansa stark #game of thonres #asoiaf

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princimutasays · 6 years ago

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Rant about BRAIME

(Sorry in advance for any mistakes but English is not my first language)

There are many people who think that Brienne and Jaime shouldn't be together because she deserves more.

Well, even though I think what's important is what she wants and needs rather than what she deserves, I'd like to express my thoughts about this.

At this point of the story Brienne is already the best she can be, both as a person and as a knight: she's loyal, she's brave, she's sensible, she's intelligent, she's strong and she is kind.

She has almost everything she ever dreamed of having: the respect of the people, the trust of the person she serves, the universalrecognition of her qualities.

Differently from other characters, she doesn't need a lover to spur her personal growth or to become a better knight or a better woman, because, as said, she already is.

What she needs at this moment is someone who will love her UNCONDITIONALLY.

Someone who knows her deeply and who admires and respects her as a fighter but who can also get past the knight and see the woman.

The passionate, shy, stubborn woman she has become.

Someone who will love her with no buts, no boundaries, no regrets ever.

Someone who, when falls in love, falls ALL THE WAY.

Someone who, when in love, lives and breathes in that love, making it the cause and the purpose of everything he does.

And, as everyone knows, in this series there is only one man who is capable of this absolute and all-encompassing kind of love.

And that man is Jaime Lannister.

Brienne deserves to know that she can be loved like this. She deserves to feel this kind of passion, this kind of devotion, this kind of desire.

That's why what she deserves is Jaime Lannister: because he is the only one who can love like that and that is the only kind of love she deserves.

Not a lukewarm love, not a fast burn love, an absolute one.

I don't care how, I don't care when, I just need her to understand once and for all that she can be loved as any other woman and I want her to know that the man she loves, loves her back maybe even more than she could ever hope.

That's all I ask. For her to openly feel passion, trust and devotion from and for the man the loves.

And Jaime.

This way, Jaime would show once and for all the Great man he has finally become because I can't imagine a more honourable and just way of living or dying than doing it while openly in love with Brienne of Tarth.

- I hope at least some of this made sense, sorry again for any mistakes but I had to get this out of my chest. -

#love #braime #brienne of tarth #got #got season 8 #got season eight #jaime lannister #jaime x brienne #lady brienne #ser brienne #shipping #shipping hard #rant

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raviposting · 6 years ago

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”If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention”///”GRRM gave D&D main writing points! This is happening in the books!”

I’ve seen these statements floating around a lot, and I’m not trying to be rude here if you’re one of the people saying this. You can believe what you want - it’s fine if you like this storyline, if you don’t care about it, or whatever. However, these statements irritate me so much because it completely disregards why people are mad about the past season of GOT - and particularly this episode - in the first place.

Let’s look at Jaime and Dany, since they’re the main focal points of this at the moment. I think Jaime will die in the books - in fact, I’m almost certain that he will die (I’d prefer he didn’t, but I also have to be realistic). I think he’ll even possibly die with Cersei, though I’d certainly prefer that he dies with Brienne nearby. I think it’s very possible for Daenerys to become a Mad Queen or go down a darker path. And considering these are big things that happened to major characters, it’s very possible that those two major plot points happen in the books. However, there’s a difference between writing a plot point and writing it with your characters’ motivations and journey in mind.

Dany becoming darker makes sense to me. There have already been choices of hers that I disagreed with - burning the Tarlys, her management of Yunkai, etc. She’s also gone through so much and one of her defining lines in the books is that she must never look back or she’ll be lost. I can see how that could hurt her - all the pain, misogyny, absolute abuse she’s had could shape her mind, and if she never looks back? I see the good of it - she won’t spend time obsessing about the past, she’s trying to look to the future, but also the bad, where she won’t look back and learn from her mistakes.

Dany is amazing, and wonderful, and I love book!her dearly. I will love to read her progression, whether it be her as a tragic hero, as a mad queen, as someone who even gets the throne. But, assuming that she dies - this progression that the show has had? Is not good. I’ve already written about it before, but this is such a big jump, even to someone who isn’t a big fan of show-Dany anymore. You can look back at points in the series that may insinuate that she’s going “mad”, but there are contexts. There’s her executing the Tarlys in wartime, her killing her abuser brother (which by the way, there is no reason for her to be sorrowful over his death - she is in the books, but even in the show it’s fine, he was an abuser she doesn’t need to show sorrow over it that’s not her being mad), her killing slave masters. Even if you don’t agree with her actions, that is not, and will never be, a logical jump to burning civilians, burning children, alive. That is not Dany at all. If she becomes mad in the books, it will be a slower progression, and we could see an actual...development. The show makes such a clear line that she’s crossed and it’s hard to sympathize with her unless you heavily identified and loved her beforehand and the subtleties that have been seen in Game of Thrones, and her character before have been thrown out for the sake of rushing this storyline and making it so there’s a clear person that we have to support in the finale, and it’s not Dany.

Jaime had 7 seasons of character development. Not all of it has been great, mind you, but ultimately with every regression he had with Cersei we had a reminder of his goodness with Brienne. Brienne didn’t create Jaime’s goodness, she just helped bring it out. We have watched Jaime for years, seen him slowly become more humanistic. Since meeting Brienne he lost his hand trying to save her, jumped into a bear pit, searched for Sansa Stark, and gave Brienne Oathkeeper, a representation of himself. He started realizing that Cersei was toxic, and that he’s been loyal to someone who maybe loves him in her own twisted way, but can’t look past her paranoia, who became the monster that he tried to stop all those years ago.

Jaime will most likely die in the books. He will probably even die with Cersei. But him dying with a proclamation of loving her after all, to completely negate everything that he went through with Brienne? To have him realize how toxic he and Cersei mutually were to each other, and to finally after years be with the first woman after his sister, his first healthy relationship, only to go back to Cersei and forget all that he’s learned and been through in the past few years? That is absolutely not going to happen, because besides being shocking for the sake of being shocking, it doesn’t fit his character arc that we have seen and read. Jaime will most likely kill Cersei in the books with the realization that she is a monster (and hey, fulfilling the prophecy that D&D loves to forget about).

Yes, the plot points will be the same, most likely. Yes, there most likely won’t be a happy ending for characters like Jaime or Dany (or Cersei, who I barely touched on, who quite frankly deserved a better death scene than “crushed by rubble”, who’s character has been formed by the prophecy that D&D decided wasn’t important). But there’s a huge difference between “Jaime dies with Cersei after professing he loves her after all and after saying he doesn’t care about King’s Landing”//”Dany burns King’s Landing and becomes mad within the span of 4 hours” and “Jaime dies with Cersei after a 7 year arc of realizing who she is will cause more harm to others”//”Dany’s struggles, abuses, extreme trauma, and attempts to become a powerful queen who follows her family’s words lead her to slowly become darker”

#game of thrones #daenerys targaryen #jaime lannister #asoiaf #anti d&d #this is repetitive and all but anyway #janie overthinks media

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asherlockstudy · 6 years ago

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Here’s why every character surviving to the end of GoT is a loser

Yes, even your Starks

I made a post yesterday saying I would like it if Jon was King Beyond the Wall and Sansa Queen in the North. Despite this, I will now tell you why this was the worst ending possible for every character involved in the last episode, including the aforementioned ones.

Daenerys. I will say it. Of all the horrible endings, Dany's was the least horrible one! The major problem with her plot line is how rushed it is. Other than that, we always had signs of what she could become. Dany ends up being the female Hitler and honestly I don't mind that. She came big and she left big...just from the other side.

Drogon. GREEDY HUMANS! FUCK YOUR POWER HUNGER! IT’S ALL FOR NOTHIIIIIIIIIIING! DROGON’S OUTTA HERE

Jon. Oh boy. I never cared for Jon yet even I felt sorry for that character. No wonder Kit was crying. Jon becomes the ultimate vessel for the plot and the sole reason of his whole heritage and existence is to cut off Dany's bullshit. What's worse is that he can't do it on his own, he can't think for himself and for the people anymore and Tyrion has to brainwash him. He becomes a coward, shivering in front of his destiny and his true name. Let alone that he has zero chemistry with Emilia and therefore the oh so tragic moment when he overcomes himself and kills her convinces nobody. Yes, he finds the free folk in the end but the problem is that it is not his choice. It is not self-exile. His siblings sent him away all alone to appease... Greyworm. A disgrace to all the years Kit was shooting with that costume in a snowstorm.

Greyworm. Ultimate character assassination. Yes, Greyworm was fiercely loyal to Dany but he never struck me as blind to justice and mercy. Would Jorah obey THIS Dany even after her death? Man, I don't think so. Even Jorah would quit before Jon and Greyworm and this says something about this writing. But the absolute worst is that in the end he sails to Naath. What, were we supposed to feel sorry for him? To empathise? He's a mass murderer. Why the fuck should I care if he misses Missandei? The last moment "he sails for a good cause now" is fucking ridiculous.

Tyrion. Up until he's imprisoned, he's relatively okay. After that, he forgets very easily his losses and especially the one of his most beloved family member, his brother's demise. His trial is a joke, where he soon takes the upper hand again, and chooses the worst candidate for a king (more on that later). After that, it is clear clever Tyrion learned nothing from his journey, his experiences and his grave mistakes that led to the destruction of the whole city and his own family. He happily becomes the Hand of the King again, enjoys sitting in the chair and tells stories about brothels, thus confirming that whatever they do, the governance of poor Westeros will always be shitty.

Bran. Man. Where do I begin. Bran the broken. Dude, Bran is probably the least broken in there. To a fault. The implication here is that Bran played them all. He clearly says that he headed south because he knew he would be offered the crown. What happened to the “I don't want anymore, I live in the past, don't envy me, I am not the Lord of Winterfell, I'm something else now” crap? In some scenes Bran has a glimmer in his eyes but the problem is that if they wanted to play with that (and it would be fairly decent), they should have made Bran openly evil or greedy or machiavellian at least before the end. If he is just the 3ER, I doubt he wants power or to involve himself with the matters of the country and the commonwealth. He should be wise, humble, withdrawn and helpful only when a crisis arose that nobody but him was aware of. Instead, we get a very human and flawed Bran who doesn't agree with the rest of his supposedly semi-divine nature. Furthermore, we were already proven right - from those few scenes we got it is already clear that Bran is an insufficient king, distant and absent. He comes and goes in seconds lmao... I'll check where Drogon is. I must go now... Worst choice for a king ever made. This becomes an emotionless Big Brother dystopia.

Sansa. I could be happy she became the Queen in the North but do you know when this would make sense? If the king of Westeros was someone other than her brother!!!!!!!!! What's the point of an autonomous North when it’s a Stark that rules the Seven Kingdoms anyway? Do you know what the only conclusion that can be drawn is? That Sansa’s one and only objective was to rule. She risked Jon’s head and spread his secret only to have a chance at having a relative in the Iron Throne that she could later persuade to let her rule on her own in Winterfell. Being the Lady / Queen of Winterfell is more important to Sansa than her relatives’ safety or the unity of the family. Remember when Arya insinuated this in S7? She was right... Even in Tyrion’s trial, which is a joke, Sansa revels in taking the lead out of nowhere. Think about this before you cheer for her success. Imagine if Jaime was the King of Westeros. Would Cersei demand that the Westerlands would be autonomous so that she could be queen there? Nah. There you have it, at this point, the Lannisters seem much much more likeable than the Starks. (Which I always kinda thought but now it’s obvious.)

Arya. It’s so obvious that D&D loved Arya but didn’t know what to do with her character. Her choice to travel once again is an excuse to wrap up her story. It is clear that Arya’s story arc ended with the death of the Night King but they couldn’t kill her off and they also feared that if they gave her a conventional ending with Gendry, it would not be feminist enough. What they don’t understand is that feminism is a woman’s liberty to make choices and change goals according to her aspirations and desires without being restricted by ANY social expectation or stereotype whatsoever and not being a tomboy for tomboy’s sake. Last season Arya wanted to return home, home, home but now she’s like nah I ain’t going back there ever again, I’m going where No One has been. Okay, great. I suspect Arya is once again pissed off with Sansa and honestly I can’t blame her. So Arya has the most pointless ending ever and of course when she says she’s leaving and never coming back, Sansa and Bran are sooo emotional. NOT. I saw people saying “at least this scene was so emotional” and... are you kidding me? Neither Sansa nor Bran gave a fuck about Arya’s decision. Maybe Jon a little but it’s all so cold and distant between the wolf pack, my ass. I guess the actors gave up at some point and I wholeheartedly understand it... what would you do with a script like that? The Starks won the thrones and lost themselves in the process. Nice.

Brienne. Let me tell you why even Jaime had a better ending than Brienne. So, apparently in the end Brienne is the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. First of all, why on earth would she prefer this to being in Sansa’s Queensguard? She wouldn’t. Having her there in the council forced to endure Tyrion and Bronn’s ridiculous conversations is a fucking disgrace. That was not what she was meant for. She survived it all to end up in a dystopia. Furthermore, she functions as a vessel to restore Jaime’s reputation. You know what the problem here is? That it does not fucking matter anymore! The point about Jaime’s redemption was to finally receive some acknowledgement for all the good he had done, to SEE people appreciate him with his own eyes. Jaime is in heaven now (fight me). He never got to know if people would eventually respect him and his contributions. If the scene had one meaning, that was that Brienne moved on. Not from her love but from her heartbreak. She understood Jaime. She probably knew that Jaime’s respect and adoration and attraction for her was all genuine but he simply couldn’t stand a peaceful life when his siblings and especially his sister and his child were confronting death. Brienne still loves Jaime and doesn’t hold anything against him because, yeah, his departure was very problematic but this man also rescued her from rape and lost his hand, saved her life, armoured her, gave her his own sword which was one of the most valuable in the world, gave her what now is her best friend, always valued her opinion and acted based on it, followed her to the North to measure up next to her, saved her life many more times, knighted her when no other knight would, shared carefree and intimate moments with her and was the first one to love her and reciprocate. And whatever D&D do, all this simply DOES NOT FUCKING CHANGE. So how could Brienne ever hate him, especially a woman like her, full of love and goodness and understanding? Thus, I know many of you will disagree, but I think Brienne should have got pregnant. Don’t forget that Brienne, behind all her defense mechanisms, was a romantic at heart and had many traditional “womanly” desires and this is perfectly okay. She wanted to be courted, loved, held and married, provided that there was someone she deemed worthy in certain ways. Brienne still carries Oathkeeper. None of what happened between her and Jaime is changed or will be forgotten. So what would be a better gift for her, the most beautiful token of that short time she lived her dream with a man she loved unconditionally and a man who did for her things nobody had done for her before? Or even for most women? How many women, pretty or not, can claim their man saved them from death and rape many times, was willing to sacrifice himself at any time for them and gave them objects of inestimable value that were meant only for noble men to wield or wear? In conclusion, I am willing to bet that Brienne would want a child from Jaime, a reminder of him and her happiest memories. She would return to Tarth where she would bloody be the Lady of Tarth and continue the lineage of her father instead of serving others her entire life. She would be a great mother. Imagine a child with the prospects of both Jaime and Brienne, raised by her. Furthermore, Tyrion was the Hand of the King and he would certainly persuade Bran to legitimize the kid and then, there would be a continuation of the great House Lannister, which D&D were so eager to obliterate. Now, we can only hope for Tyrion’s visits in brothels. Nice.

Ser Pod. Okay, let’s be serious for a moment. I know it is sweet that Pod survived everything and is now a knight but... he doesn’t deserve that title, all right? Look what Brienne has been through to get her title. Then Pod is like oh yeah I’m a knight too. Fanservice at its best. I mean, obviously Brienne made him a knight lol but this is not serious storytelling. Pod deserves all the good endings in the world but being a knight just to carry Bran around is not one of them.

Davos. I love Davos with all my heart. I told myself that surely, there is a reason he’s been in (I think) seven out of the eight seasons. After Melisandre died, I thought he had some great part to play before the end. And you know what? He did! His role was to call out the level of stupidity in this writing. “Did the Lord of Light just fuck off after the fight?!” Yes, Davos, he did!!! D&D had a character make fun of their own writing, what can I say after that? Anyway, what I mean is, there was literally no reason for lovely Davos’ survival and whole existence in general.

Bronn. Talking about useless characters. He was not always useless but now he is. Which is why he is the most fitting for this council of incompetence. How did I dare question his position in that council - he has just as much right as everyone else to be there. Another fanservice without substance.

Sam. Yeah, he found the title for the Song of Ice and Fire, something that 99% of the fans had predicted years ago. That’s it. No Tyrion in it and at this point, I agree it was probably for the best.

Edmure. Best character ending ever. He started as a fool and survived the show as a fool. I shouldn’t include him here, he’s the only winner. Him and Tormund.

I don’t know if I forgot someone but I want to add as a side-note that Jaime hardly had the worst ending after all. I mean, he died as an overly emotional, addicted and not very clever tragic hero but, I mean, he still was a tragic hero. Everyone else’s character here was a joke with the exception maybe of Dany and Brienne, whose endings were only rushed and incomplete respectively but at least they were not jokes.

#got spoilers #got season 8 #game of thrones #braime #brienne of tarth #anti-dany #jon snow #anti-sansa #anti-bran #jaime lannister #tyrion lannister #bronn #podrick payne #ser davos #edmure tully #samwell tarly #arya stark

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podstye · 6 years ago

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for @oftarth continued from x

The clash of SWORDS and grunts from those practicing in the field around them filled the air as it had nearly all day since daybreak. It was certainly COLD there, although at least not currently snowing for the first day in the past several. Sparring had kept Podrick warm, especially against Lady Brienne, whom he was still unable to best despite his full effort. Now that he had stopped to rest for several moments, however, it was hard to again ignore the temperature, worsened by the intermittent gusts of wind that seemed to bite his fingers and the tip of his nose worst of all. Rubbing his hands together, he looked anxiously back towards Brienne, unsure if it would truly be right to take a rest when she herself would not.

She had even stated that she did not think him any LESSOR for wanting to quit, but at this Podrick shook his head, steeling his decision. Reaching to grab the waterskin from the ground near their feet he took a swig before holding it up to offer her some, as well.

“ No, if… If YOU can stay, I should stay. I’ll need the practice, my Lady. ”

His muscles protested with the fatigue of the long day, but he again reached for his sword and raised it marginally in question. “ Can we go AGAIN? ”

#⤳ ( she is loyal past the point of sense; brienne )#oftarth #⤳ ( meat and mead at my table; show v. )

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lupinusalbus · 6 years ago

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Jon Snow’s Disappointing and Muddled Character Arc

Finally, Game of Thrones came to an end after eight years. As many people have observed, Game of Thrones was possibly one of the best television shows ever, at least when it was at the height of it’s quality. One of the most disappointing things in the last couple of seasons has been what became of Jon Snow’s character. I’ll sum up some of the details below:

Jon’s “love” relationship with Dany was not sufficiently fleshed out

After viewing the ending of the series, it seems clear that the writers truly did want to portray Jon Snow as being in love with Daenerys Targaryen, at least in the final episode when he stabs her. We see that because of how he appears to waiver in his conversations with Arya and Tyrion. In Jon’s conversation with Tyrion, after Tyrion has been locked up, we finally get a bit of a window into Jon’s feelings. Jon even seems to be defending himself by quoting Maester Aemon’s “love is the death of duty”, which Tyrion immediately turns on its head.

The writers want us to think that Jon sees the wrongness of what Dany has done, but he is defending and supporting her because of his love for her. This love has also made him loyal, as always; thus his inner conflict over the atrocities she committed. But a significant part of the audience was never convinced that Jon loved Dany because of the odd way their relationship was presented in season 7 and early in season 8. Many people have written about the particulars, even in the mainstream media, so there is no reason to review it again here. Needless to say there was a lack of character development and chemistry between the two that made it even more difficult to fathom, by episode six, the reason that Jon was continuing to support her and thus compromising his principles. Jon looked to be only a shadow of his former self in season 8 as he apparently became the enabler of a tyrant.

Jon’s defense of Dany made him look stupid

Alright, Jon Snow was never the most clever character on the show, but his moral compass assured that he was far from being dumb. Jon made bold decisions in the past, such as his expedition to Hardhome on behalf of the underdogs, the Wildlings. He also went against the sadistic Ramsey Bolton in the Battle of the Bastards and made an unpopular decision to travel to Dragonstone. How did this same character lose his grounding to the extent that he did in season 8? The idea that he is afraid of Dany does not really stand up to scrutiny because he goes against her wishes and tells Arya and Sansa about his true heritage. The writers seem to want to portray him, in the end, as being conflicted about his blood ties to Dany, yet still in love with her and loyal.

This development is not written convincingly. Other than a “love” scene between Jon and Dany at Winterfell where he is unable to return Dany’s advances, the audience is not given enough information about how he feels about their relationship post reveal.

We are only shown that he sticks with Dany after hearing from Sam about the Tarleys and after she coldly tells him to keep his claim secret. Is he alright with Dany wanting to use him as her lover and making him into a kind of “kept” man?

Furthermore, Jon saw Dany’s imperious tendencies in the past, and none of that bothers him as she makes her plans to take King’s Landing?

Was the show trying to show Jon’s moral failure all along?

This may be giving the writers (D&D) too much credit, but perhaps they were attempting to give Jon Snow a dark turn all along? After years of giving us a heroic, honorable and protective character, they gave us someone who is blinded to the potential evil in Daenerys. Jon refuses Varys’s (correct) attempt to overthrow Dany, and then becomes caught up in her slaughter of the innocents. Even in the episode six scene with Tyrion, Jon seems inclined to choose loyalty to Dany over admitting to Tyrion that Dany should be stopped. Although this may have been written as an attempt to prolong the suspense, it made Jon come across as morally compromised and unable to see right from wrong.

Was the show trying to make Jon fall from grace and render him unworthy to be King, or was it just trying to paint Dany in a more positive light?

Why was Jon Snow not put forward to be King?

Bran was “elected” as King after Tyrion suggests him, but it seems far fetched that no one nominated Jon Snow. The fact that he killed Dany, is something that some of the assembled Lords and Ladies should be thankful for after she destroyed King’s Landing. As a Targaryen Jon has a claim, not to mention that he had a hand in saving Westeros by alerting people to the impending advance of the Night King. Sansa plotted to get Jon on the Iron Throne, but doesn’t say a word about it after he saves Westeros from a despot?

That Jon doesn’t want the Throne is beside the point; he is a logical choice that would be supported by many people after he helped to defeat the Night King and did away with Dany.

The audience doesn’t get to see what happened to Jon after Drogon flew away with Dany’s body, and more precisely how he survived. Did the Northern Army and Arya play a part? Why wouldn’t Gray Worm have killed Jon immediately?

Jon’s “sentence” doesn’t make sense

The only people in the DP meeting who wanted Jon to die seemed to be Yara and Grayworm. Almost all the rest were allies or probable allies of Jon’s, so why did Tyrion, Royce, Robin Arryn, Brienne, Davos, Sam, Bran, Sansa and so on supposedly agree that he had to be exiled, not marry or father children and so forth. And why couldn’t Bran as King just let Jon go free just as he appointed Tyrion to be Hand of the King? Surely Bran was pleased that Daenerys was stopped in her tracks. For Jon to be exiled makes no sense at all. Had he given up his claim and then chosen to go back to the Wall, the ending would have had more power. In the ending we were given, he essentially is being punished for saving Westeros and the world from Dany, a foreign invader.

#jon snow #daenerys targaryen #got season 8 #bad writing got #bran stark #game of thrones #Sansa Stark

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actual-disaster-bi · 6 years ago

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Okay this is very late, I was meant to post this days ago and forgot to but here's my Battle Of Winterfell thoughts:

I felt really bad for Sam during the entire episode but I also got kinda annoyed after his little speech last episode about how they need him to fight. I get it that it was war and he was scared, and rightfully so, but something about it just annoyed me.

I love how quite it is when they are waiting for the Night King and his army, it just adds to the tension and helps put people on edge.

Not gonna lie I was a little scared when The Hound and Gendry pushed through to the front, I really want my boys to live and going to the front isn't gonna help with that.

I'll never know how Davos knew that was Melisandre from that far away but I have been waiting to see her again. At least she tried to help them and, more importantly, light the goddamn screen so I could actually see. Honestly I thought Davos was straight up gonna kill her and I'm a bit sad that he didn't get to tbh cos I feel like he did deserve bit of revenge.

Seeing all the Dothraki swords go out was pretty intense, I honestly didn't expect them to go down like that and I didn't expect the survivors to come running back. After that you can just see everyone realise that they are fucked.

The intense moment of horror I felt when I saw Brienne go under was horrible, I seriously thought they had got her. I dunno what I would've done if she died.

Arya sending Sansa was so sad, you could see that Sansa didn't want to leave but in all honesty she wasn't much use up there if she can't fight. Sansa looked so lost when she went down to the crypts and even Tyrion looked at her with shame, they both know that they have no place upstairs, I really felt bad for them.

Edd dying really doesn't mean too much to be tbh, he was a good character but he wasn't that important to me.

The Unsullied sacrificing themselves to let the others get back inside the gates hurt me, after the way the North treated them they still gave their lives to save them. At least Greyworm survived.

Arya saving The Hound is so underrated, they two will always have each others backs and no one can convince me otherwise.

Thank fuck for Melisandre, at least she's helping them this time since the dragons fucked up and didnt light the wood. I gotta say the dragons really disappointed me this episode.

I feel really bad for Tyrion, he just wants to help but even Sansa has to admit that they are useless. I really enjoyed Sansa admitting that Tyrion isn't that bad but seriously, she wasn't saying anything bad about Dany. All she was saying was divided loyalties would be a problem so people can stop acting as if she was hating on Dany.

Bran telling Theon that he was home was so important. Theon needed to hear that even after everything he done, Winterfell is still his home and that he belongs there.

Gotta admit I was a bit impressed when the dead created a bridge of bodies to get over the fire, I didn't expect them to be that smart.

Braime fighting for each other and protecting each other this episode gave me life, also protecting their son Podrick as well. I'm so here for their little family surviving everything together.

The Hounds panic attack was one of my favourite scenes this episode, it really shows the big guys trams and it just proves how much Arya means to him. We was ready to just give up and die but when he knew Arya was in danger he had to save her. Honestly one of the best duos in this show.

Lyanna Mormont killing this giant hurt me so much. That little girl had more balls than most the characters on that show and if she was gonna go out she was gonna go out fighting. Even when she was dying she took out a giant, she is such a badass little queen who will be greatly missed.

Arya alone inside that castle was honestly more intense than most horror movies, that was definitely there to foreshadow her being able to sneak past the dead at the end of the episode to kill the Night King.

I'm sad to see Beric go but at least the guy will be at peace now, knowing he died for what he was meant to do. I knew he was gonna die but I kinda hoped Melisandre

I have been waiting for Ayra and Melisandre to meet again. I never took much notice of the eye thing but when she said that it all clicked and the little "not today" part was a reminder I didn't need. God I had forgot all about Syrio Forel and I really liked that little reference to season 1.

I knew that burning him wasn't going to work but I was hoping that Jon would go into the flames at one point. I want to see if he will be like Dany and not get burnt or if cos he's half stark it will kill him. I feel like this is where the Night King got a bit cocky and that's was his downfall, Dany's dragon didn't work and he thought he left Jon to die so he didn't see anyone else as threats, only obstacles.

I FUCKING KNEW THAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE CRYPTS. I said this to my stepdad last week when they said they were gonna his people in the crypts, I knew it was gonna be a bad idea. He said to me it wouldn't happen cos they are decomposed, well fuck you it happened. I told you so.

I knew that Jorah was gonna die protecting Dany but I didn't expect him to fight until he was dead. That man was so loyal that he fought until his last breath (must be a Mormont thing) but seriously I'm gonna miss him. Even with his faults he was a great character.

Speaking of which Sansa and Tyrion (with no training) were prepared to die fighting for the people in the crypt. The little hand kiss bit got me, I really believe that they will grow closer after this.

Theon fighting even when he was the last man standing hurt me so much. I really hoped he wouldn't die and get a happy ending but I kinda expected him to die like this. He done amazing and he tried so hard to protect Bran, when Bran told him he was a good man I think that was what he needed to hear to know that it was okay to die. He gave everything to protect Bran and I hope Winterfell remembers him.

Jon giving up and screaming back at the dragon was so relatable for some reason? Honestly bro, me too.

ARYA KILLED THE NIGHT KING. MY GIRL DID IT AND IVE NEVER FELT SO PROUD. I never thought about her killing him till now but it makes so much sense, she has been training for this for years and has learned about death. I'm raging that I didn't realise it before but I'm happy that it wasn't Jon or Dany who done it cos it would've been too obvious.

Dany crying over Jorah was heartbreaking and I think it will definetly add to the Dark Dany that she is becoming now that she has lost her most loyal friend. Also Drogon trying to comfort her was a horrible thing to add, I was already sad I didn't need to see that.

Missadre being a dramatic bitch and dying like that. Davos was just pissed he wasn't the one to kill her.

I really enjoyed this episode and I'm surprised that more major characters didn't die, definitely not complaining tho. I really hope the next episodes give the chapters time to rest and have them meet their loved ones after the battle (Aka Gendrya and Braime). I also looking forward to seeing everyone's reactions when they find out that Arya killed The Night King.

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13thopposite · 6 years ago

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Okay guys, I think I am somewhat on terms with Jaime and Briennes ending now and I’m gonna tell you why

This is all about the Show!Characters. They share the names and they share their pasts but Book!Braime and Show!Braime went completely different ways after they parted in KL and I guess we just have to accept that. It’s another Story. A Love!Story still, but a different one.

So I gonna start now and hope I’m going to make sense. I feel somewhat good for Jaime that he finally had sex with another woman. And not just another woman. I woman he appreciated, adored even. A woman he chose not for her looks and not because she had simialarities to Cersei, but a woman he loved for her character, her honour, her development, for what she taught him and what he taught her. Jaime never knew anything about romantic love outside of his relationship with Cersei, which they formed when they were 7 years old. And Jaime always boasted himself with his faithfulness and loyality to Cersei. But we know that this relationship was driven by many things in the last years, and romantic love was not one of those, nor tenderness. They were each others last anchor and the thing they just came back to because they always had. Since they were little children who had nothing to fear but the anger of their father. It was already great that Jaime and Brienne had this deep connection for what they both equally wanted to represent but one could and the other one couldn’t (competely). But not just that: there was a point where the borders got blurry for dear Jaime. It didn’t take that long for him to see beyond the uncommon woman and accept the knight inside Brienne. Even longer it took him to look beyond her armour of the honourable knight, the strong soldier, to see the Lady she didn’t want anyone to know she actually wanted to be (at least the child in her). So now he finally does and he acts on it. He goes to her room and he doesn’t know what to do because he never had to try to win over a woman before. He has no idea what to do before the actual action starts. But he does anyway. And even if we didn’t see anything of it on screen, I believe this must have been a very different experience for Jaime. Sex with Cersei (as what we have been shown of it) was rough, needy, and it was established. Sex with Brienne I deeply believe (come fight me), beause it’s new territory for both of them, was tender, affectionate and unmatched. And that is what makes me happy for Jaime. He was with someone who truely and selflessly loves him for whom he is regardless of what other people think of him. And her consequently. He got to know something he never did and he’s not going to get it again after he leaves. I believe he felt that and knows it and he appreciates it and no one’s gonna convince me othervise. That he went back to Cersei anyway makes me sad as everyone else. I guess everyone just hoped so badly that Jaime finally had realised that he’s worthy of Brienne and a happily ever after that we were too shocked by his going back to see that this was his story since season one. I think he should have seen [...], he should have thought [...], he should have understood [...]. But he didn’t. It is not the story D&D wanted to write. It sucks. It hurts. But it is. I don’t like the inconsistencies like when he said he didn’t care for the innocents (just not true, this sentence was never said in my head, seriously), that the prophecy wasn’t really fulfilled (I don’t think either of her brothers really killed her now), or that after all the talks Tyrion and Jaime had in Winterfell about being happy and stuff, Thyrion never mentions any of it in that tent-scene (but you could reason with this just wasn’t the time and he just accepted it as it was). But I’m okay now with his death with Cersei and that he slept with Brienne even though he left her later on.

As for Brienne, as Gwen said, she decided for going there. She knew the man Jaime was, she knew alot of his worst deeds (and his best too) and she decided to sleep with this man and live out the woman that was in her. She loved Jaime, we all know that, and she might not ever love a man like she did him. And as I said before, I decide against believing anything else but that their sex was tender and loving and honest. When she told him to stay she tried to tell him that he didn’t have to die. That he wasn’t a bad man to her and that she believed in him. He couldn’t stay anyway. And if she wouldn’t have accepted that, she would surely have ridden after him. She knows he’s going to go back and get hiself killed und she knows she can’t hold him back or change his decision. She’s heartbroken to loose him. She’s heartbroken to loose yet another man she loved. But if our lady knight accepts it, maybe we should accept it too.

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sophicals · 6 years ago

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Things That Could Have Been Done in Game of Thrones S8 That The Writers Failed us on

(Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, feel free to add more. Also! I know these all don’t work together and I’m not saying they should have all happened because that wouldn’t make sense, I just feel like some of these ideas would have made the series better)

1- The Night King should have been the final boss. It seemed to me he was this ‘big evil’ that was hyped up for 7 seasons, he should have gotten to King’s Landing and that’s where he should have been defeated. Plus imagine if he brought back all the fallen of King’s Landing, the Lannister children, Robert, Hell even the Mad King. Then there could have been the Battle of Kings or something.

2- Arya should have died killing the Night King. (Although I love Arya and I wanted her to have her happy ending I would have been content with her dying whilst killing the Night King like a total badass, like Lyanna Mormont)

3-Gendry being on the boat with Arya, holding hands, going to discover the new world together.

4- Brienne and Tormund actually got together (I know, unpopular opinion but to me it felt like he really loved her and could have made her happy)

5- Rhaegal doesn’t get killed so Jon can have a dragon to ride alongside his queen

6- Daenerys and Jon ruling the Seven Kingdoms together equally as the rightful King and Queen

7- Dany NOT GOING FUCKING INSANE RUINING HER ENTIRE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT! SHE SHOULD HAVE BROKEN THE IRON THRONE, TO BREAK THE WHEEL! NOT DROGON BECAUSE HE WAS HAVING A MUFASA MOMENT WITH HIS MOTHER! HELL DROGON COULD HAVE STILL MELTED THE THRONE IF DAENERYS INSTRUCTED HIM TO, TO MAKE A POINT!

8-Even if Dany had to die, she should have been reunited with her first love, Khal Drogo and their child

9-Jon choosing to return to the north because he didn’t want to be seen as a threat to Dany, to prove he would never try to take the throne away from her, and because he wanted to to be in place he belonged. NOT BECAUSE HE WAS EXILED!

10- Jon being Aegon Targaryen actually meaning something

11- Bran being the 3-Eyed Raven meaning something

12- Meera Reed returning to Bran because where the fuck did she go? They should have been together!

13-Even if Arya had to reject Gendry’s proposal, it should have had some effect on him! Maybe he acts like his father, Robert, and start a whole nother war based on the fact he can’t have the woman he loved (Not ideal, I love Gendry and Arya together but it would have been interesting)

14-If Dany had to go mad, make it clear FROM THE START! DON’T JUST SHOE HORN IN HER MADNESS IN TWO FUCKING EPISODES AND MAKE HER THE FINAL VILLAIN FOR AN EPISODE AND A BIT!

15-In the Battle of Winterfell, when the dead in the crypt are rising, actually have the actors who played Rob, Ned, Catelyn and the rest of the Stark family there as white walkers so there could have been a moment for Sansa to relive the horror that her family is gone.

16- Cersei getting the death/ending she deserved! The fact she gets crushed by some stonework is such a crap way to go. What should have happened was that Jaime and her should have gotten through the tunnel, only to be confronted by Dany, Drogon, Jon, Grey Worm and some other soldiers and been like ‘Where do you think you’re going?’

17- Cersei should have gotten a very violent and very public execution done by Grey Worm, as revenge for killing Missandei

18- For Jaime not to have left Brienne and Winterfell (but I think that would have been too good to be true)

19- For Jaime to have not been caught by Dany’s guards whilst he was trying to cross the border. SO Tyrion wouldn’t have had to betray his Queen by setting him free in the first place.

20- For Tyrion not to have been so stupid. Is it just me or have his decisions been very poor this season? I mean who puts all the women and children in the crypt when the army of the undead are coming who have the power to reanimate people!

21-Maybe Jaime decides his mission when he returned for King’s Landing is to ring the bell, but Cersei knew that that would have been the way to admit defeat so he heavily guards it with actual loyal people who have to defend it. Jaime still successfully makes his way to the top after fighting her soldiers, only to find the bell is not there. Jaime then staring out to the city and the Red Keep knowing that Cersei was willing to sacrifice her people because she would not surrender and that she doomed everyone. That way Dany’s fire would have been justified and then Jaime could have died in the bell tower after being burned by Daenerys’ flames. Then when Cersei is captured by Dany’s soldiers she could have asked Tyrion where Jaime was, him telling her that he was in the bell tower, Cersei having a look of shock, horror and distraught because she would know that she killed her brother/lover. Not Dany, her.

22- The bell rings and Dany gets off her dragon and calmly walks through King’s Landing, knowing that she has won and has freed the people.

23- Ghost getting all the treats for being a good boy

24- Not a writers issue but BRIGHTEN THE FUCKING SETS UP FOR GOD’S SAKE, THE BATTLE OF WINTERFELL WAS SO HARD TO SEE AT TIMES!

25- Arya at least asking Bran what is West and Bran saying that it should be seen with her own eyes, justifying her going. The fact she didn't at least ask him was a big oversight

26- Bran using his power to control Viserion during the Battle of Winterfell to set the Night King a light in the blue flame, or you know doing something during that battle.

27- If ya gunna have Drogon melt the throne (because it made Dany mad), give some indications earlier in the series that the dragons have some cognitive understanding as to what's going on. It's seems to me their entire character is just 'big fucking dragon.' So the fact he melted the throne just seems like a stupid last minute decisions by the writers.

28- The Night King winning, making it to the throne room, all of westeros covered in winter and just when you think he's gunna sit on the throne, he just turns it all to ice causing it to break and he walks past it. Ready to move his terror across the sea.

(If I think of any more I will add them, but that’s all I can think of for now. Feel free to add your own. What do you think would have made Game of Thrones Season 8 better? Let me know if you agree with any that I have said x)

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