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adarkrainbow · 1 year ago

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The Tale of Tale movie analysis (1)

It has been a long time since I did a fairytale movie analysis, and for this month I want to take a look at a movie that has been asked of me before, a long time ago: "Tale of Tales".

For those of you who do not know about this movie, "Tale of Tales" is a 2015 movie, a "European production" (it is an Italian movie, but it received help and collaboration from France and England, hence the "European" etiquette) that is to this day (and to my knowledge) the only movie that adapts Basile's Pentamerone, the titular "Tale of Tales".

The Pentamerone being one of the two foundational works when it comes to literary fairytales, and one of the two great books of classical Italian literary fairytales alongside Straparole's Facetious Nights. Basile's book is very famous for containing some of the earlier literary records of fairytale types such as Rapunzel, Sleeping Beauty, The Girl Without Hands, and more.

The book contains a total of fifty stories, and of course the movie couldn't adapt them all, so it was decided to only adapt three in total. The three chosen are usually considered emblematic stories of the Pentamerone - but they were also selected because they do not echo the more well known Grimm stories. The three selected were, The Flea, The Enchanted Doe, and The Flayed Old Lady - all taken from the first part of the book.

Note that this movie was greatly acclaimed for its extensive use of practical special effects - and there is one thing you cannot deny this movie, it looks absolutely incredible. There is a great effort on the visuals ranging from selected architecture and landscape to careful costume crafting and delightful monsters on screen.

Before going into the analysis of each of the fairytales of the movie, I wanted to point out a few things covering the entirety of the movie. Three details to be exact.

Matteo Garrone, when doing this movie, didn't just randomly selected three stories that were to his fancy. He chose three specific stories that he then tied together with cohesive themes and motifs. The first of which, the most prominent, being "obsession". Each segment is about presenting the obsessions of specific characters, and the bad outcomes of it.

The other shared motif between the three fairytales is "the ages of a woman". Despite the movie having as much male as female characters, Garrone explained very clearly that this movie was about the women, not the men, and that each fairytale represented one of the traditional three "ages of woman". "The Flea" becomes the Maiden story, focusing on the young princess ; "The Enchanted Doe" becomes the Mother story, with an exploration of the character of the queen, while "The Flayed Old Lady" is of course the Crone tale.

But much more importantly for us to understand this movie: Matteo Garrone did one very heavy and important change compared to the original material. The tone. The tone is radically different. Basile's original book, just like Straparole's fairytales, worked by the specific nature of these Italian literary fairytales of the time: they were grotesque farces, and vulgar jokes. In my last post about the Pentamerone I compared these stories to a Brandon Rogers video, because Basile's stories, despite being the ancestors of the Grimm or Perrault fairytales, are nothing like the modern fairytales we are today. They are sex stories filled with caricatures, they are gruesome, gory stories filled with morally-gray characters, they are one huge dark joke filled with poop and farts and vulgar allusions. They are much closer to medieval tales and to the tone of a Reynard the Fox story or some Rabelais books than any other fairytales we know today. But Garrone decided to apply a principle that you can see explored in series such as "Horace and Pete" or "Kevin can fuck himself". Take a sitcom, remove the laugh-track, you have a tragedy. Garrone's movie is still as grotesque as the original stories - but now the jokes are put aside, the most vulgar parts removed, the sex and the gore examined for what it is under a realistic eye. This "realistic", and "non-comical" treatment of the stories make this world of grotesque caricatures and senseless violence and depraved debauchery one not of marvels and fairies, but one of tragedies, of abuse, of horror. But, tragedies with magic, abuse with beauty, horror with happy and hopeful endings - because they stay fairytales after all, no matter how dark they are. Mean, cruel, sad fairytales, but fairytales nonetheless.

[Trivia: The fact that Basile's work was a very rude, crude and vulgar piece of sex-and-violence that can only be compared to Rabelais meeting Punch & Judy, is something many people in the English-speaking world completely missed because the first real popular and widespread translations of the text in English, in the... I think it was the 19th century or maybe a bit earlier ; but these versions were heavily censored. Trying to make the story more like a Perrault or d'Aulnoy tale, they removed many sex references, remove all the poop jokes, and even cut off some stories deemed too vulgar ot gruesome, so that for a very long time people thought they were supposed to be... regular fairytales. This is especially relevant with "Thalia, the Sun and the Moon", Basile's "Sleeping Beauty" variant. Many people point out that the girl in this story gets raped by the prince and that this shows how the fairytale of Sleeping Beauty was built on a glorification of rape, because it is treated as ormal or as some romance. But... no. This rape is treated as a rape and the prince is very clearly a lustful asshole who is taking advantage of the girl - because it is a dark sex-tale. Princes in the Pentamerone are almost all lustful rapists, violent murderers or complete helpless idiots, because the Pentamerone does not work on a "prince charming" logic. Take "The Golden Root" - the handsome, kind, gentle, good prince that seems to fit the bill of the Prince Charming... is part of a family of ogres, and ends up murdering in rage his intended fiancée just to be married to the heroine of the tale. And that's something that many people missed for a very long time - the prince charming archetype is from the French tales of the 17th and 18th century, not before.]

#tale of tales #movie analysis #fairytale movie #pentamerone #italian fairytales #dark fairytales

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teeth-cable · 1 year ago

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The stella hate she received is too much and this is the twisted thing i see, they compare stella to amber heard an actual real life victim of abuse. Amber heard this woman who speak up about being abused by her husband johnny depp what does she get death threat, harassment, bullied, mockery , etc. Stella this character is so demonized that a lot people don't ever think she's a sentient being with emotion too

If we look at historical context often the female royal member are often seeing baby making machine. Only a few female royal member become leader in the monarchy system often it's male royal member. The systemic sexism if the husband of royal famliy cheat the wife get in trouble and consider failure of her marriage. That means stella she's very disadvantage

1. Stolas cheat she consider to be failure not stolas

2. Stella doesn't play any important role her role is just sit there and looking pretty

3. She is disposable after fullfiling her role now the system consider her useless

4. Her noble rank her parent definitely want their status to be elevated so of course they choose stella

5. Often woman in this system get abused and they put in really high standard

And stolas. I'm sorry people are so desperate painting him as not like the other royalty who's relatable, kind, down to earth, no he's not even closed to that. The writer fail that part i seen character who's royalty actually use their privilege for good

Example : Zuko (avatar the last airbender), Elena(Elena of avalor), sofia(sofia the first), Charlotte le bouff( Princess and the frog), Elle Woods(Legally blonde)

In question did stolas use her privilege for good? All he did use to exploit blitzo and use that for he's own benefit. Vivziepop you know diana spencer can be used as one of your inspiration right? Diana spencer princess of wales this is an example of royal family member use her privilege for good

She break the stigma people who have hiv and aids, she actually interact with other people who have different status from her, she care about people well being, because of that a lot people liked her. After she died people also remember and sadden by her death

How about let's not compare real life cases of abused victims to the abuse fictional characters are suffering from a poorly written demon show?

Exactly, that's what fans are not understanding either. The critical community doesn't pity and empathize with Stella because we see her as this harmless angel but because she is also a victim like Stolas is of Hell's monarchy system. Whether fans want to admit it or not, Stella would absolute take the blame for the marriage failing, not Stolas. Stolas has an important role to do, they wanted a heir to HIS throne, and to quote HezuNeutral from their, Helluva Boss Continues to Circle Spiral video,"If Stella was infertile she'd be screw" because her only purpose in this system is to give birth. It's frustrating that Stella gets reduce to a black and white villain instead of a morally gray one because Viv doesn't want to be nuanced about the affair but even more frustrating, she can't even do her role as a villain right because not only is Stella, terrible inaccurate rep of domestic abusers but also because she is so dumb that she needs her brother to point out when Stolas dies, all of his things would be inherited by Octavia and not her. As if (I'm assuming) one of the actual reasons why she stayed in the marriage was because she like spending his money and what caused them to be so miserable was she and Stolas were arranged to give birth to an heir!

Stolas isn't good either, he still treats imps like shit, using his butler as a stressed toy, talking down to imps, it's just he “acts" less racist towards I.M.P.

#helluva boss critical #helluva boss criticism #helluva critical #꧁rambles꧂#➥asks

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ihopesocomic · 2 years ago

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Tbh I wish Proud was less of an asshole to justify his "It's just what a mane has to do to survive", to show how patriarcal societies, while much more opressive towards females than to males, are still toxic to men.

There is just no nuance. Every male is a sexist (sometimes homophobic because we can't have a story about LGBT+ characters without homophobia🙄) piece of shit who really loves Pride law even though it forces them to leave their homes and family to a world who gets harder to survive thanks to the longer dry season (Which is supposed to be happening but we don't see any evidence of it 🙄🙄🙄) , and gives a higher success rate to those who are monstruous enough to kill Fathers and their children.

I guess his name is a good indicator of how much he is practically the living incarnation of Pride Law (His name is fucking PROUD), which could just be a really bad way to show that he's Lite, but I dunno, I feel like it would be much better if the show made him more of a morally gray character to show how destroying the patriar- I mean Pride Law would be better not just for lionesses, but for manes as well.

I suppose what I want is Proud to be completely transformed into a whole new character because this dude right now is just the walking and talking embodiment of everything wrong in MP's world and I think that's boring.

Ugh you have no idea how much I agree with you on how this show was a completely missed opportunity to show how the patriarchy negatively affects men and it's perpetuation just further hurts the future generation, even if people can sit down and think about it and agree with how it's harmful. But then again it was a missed opportunity for many things, and considering how much this show revels in demonizing its male characters no matter how little sense it makes, I can't say that I would've expected them to handle such a complicated topic with any ounce of sensitivity.

One of Proudmane's biggest problems is he's just Quickmane But Worse™ so Quickmane could've easily just existed on his own as being the talking embodiment of everything wrong in MP's world. And Proud should have been something different, to present the opposite side of Pride Law of someone who isn't Fire, someone who's been out on their own for longer and the consequences of that. But he's not, he's exactly the same as Quickmane, right down to having the same exact purpose to his entire existence lol

Proudmane's other problem is, they literally set him up to be sympathetic right after setting him up to be an asshole, only to make him become an asshole in the end anyway (which begun the 'Quickmane may be ableist but he's better because he's not homophobic' conversation lol)

Even then the whole "Its just what a mane has to do to survive" is not only debunked by what we see with our own eyes in the previous episode, which is that he was in a big group of males and eating well, which even according to Fire was a good ol time. The statement is also directly contradicting what he did... seconds beforehand. Which was... what was it... oh yeah threatening to kill Nothing, who wasn't a hinderance on his survivability lol Pretty sure killing cubs is also not a hinderance to his survivability, since 1) This aspect of Pride Law isn't exactly reinforceable, and 2) This particular pride has no qualms about accepting a mane who doesn't kill babies, case in point, uh...... the first fucking episode.

That whole scene in episode 5 annoys me for a variety of reasons lol like Proud having a literal debate with Nothing about why he should kill her, when he could. I dunno. Just do it.

But let's pretend for a moment that being a no-mane/prideless (is there really a difference here? Do we really need two different words for males and females? lol I hate the word 'no-mane' it's so dumb) in this universe is as bad as everyone says it is. Let's pretend that being prideless is closer to being a death sentence.

We could've had first-hand insight into a typical male lion's life in this world. From learning that their father murdered someone else's father, and children, in order to have a pride (and that the feelings of the pride itself on the matter is irrelevant to one's own survival). The near-constant fear knowing that one day that same thing could happen to you and your siblings and father, and knowing one day he's going to have to do the same. Being raised to believe he's worthless unless he gains control of a pride, taught to treat lionesses like they're inferior. The traumas of being forced to leave his home, and be subjected to starvation and facing other dangers alone, and how being alone can seriously impact a social creature's mental health. But he believes that in order to survive he has to be just as horrible as everyone else, and his justification is Pride Law and survival. In order to live, you have to exploit everyone's weaknesses, because it's for your own good. And then he's going to raise his children the same way. Not only showing the cycle in real time, but that also could've shown that Pride Law doesn't in fact benefit males like everyone is told it does, and that in many instances they're victims of the system as well, just differently.

And that's where you'd bring in Fire or Feather to be his foil, to show no, you don't have to be awful in order to survive, and you should reject everything about Pride Law. (And Nothing could raise Feather that way, and/or Fire could come to his own conclusions since he was allowed to live in the first place, but only because his sister went against Pride Law from the start, and he either didn't think it an option to do so, or felt too scared to do it himself. Him being alive to this day should allow him to have new perspectives on Pride Law. Either way Nothing's sole duty was to end Pride Law, but the writers don't permit her to succeed lol)

But nah, its more dramatic and therefore more entertaining if you just have your villain be a homophobic sexist prick that the show tries gaslighting you into feeling bad for. Instead of having the villain be the patriarchy, it's just men who are the villains lol And if you're a nice guy, you die, sorry.

As a super huge lesbian, man-hating (intentional or otherwise) is not the progressive messaging people think it is. - Cat

#ask

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delulu-with-wandanat · 1 year ago

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When I see people from all sorts of backgrounds: incels, feminists,... yell from the top of their lungs about how Natasha Romanoff is sexualized & an eye candy. I assume that must be a very prominent part of her characterisation but then when I revisit her whole screentime, I can only think of : the suit not it's tightness all superhero suits are tight but the below average lower zip, don't come at me but didn't Wanda's suits in EG, IW,CW & lowkey AOU kinda accentuate her chest not to mention every Spiderman's suit accentuating his dick, I didn't see anyone reducing their characterisation to how they were physically represented. There are also 2 ass shots in IR2 &CA:TWS done for "surprise" effet which shares with her Steve in A1 & EG where there's a running joke about his ass and everyone got over those minutes where his ass was focused. There's that photo (in lingerie) that appeared on Tony's ipad? for like 0.1second but isn't that reasonable considering she is an undercover spy on a honeypot mission? I might also add that backseat car scene in IR2 is kinda understandable I mean it's just her changing her clothes and we can only get glimpse of Scarlett's bra and leg for fucks sake why are people acting like we got full minutes of Scarlett's naked body for no fucking reason? We are talking about a character with very loose (not in that slut shaming way but in morally gray/complex way)views on everything including where/how to change, what to do in her missions,... Her undercover time in IR2 is literally the embodiment of that statement "Natasha is comfortable with everything" that is said by Nick to Steve. This honestly an aspect of hers people overlook &is remembered only to describe her as the team's slut, a pass around who has no values. There's also that 1 scene in AOU where Bruce falls from what I don't remember" on her boobs I get it it was unnecessary but if people just for a second ignored their hatred for brucenat this scene can be overlooked if it was done in a way that makes it spontaneous and reasons why exactly Bruce would fall on nat instead of elsewhere, plus it's just 1 scene. It's sad that even her fans start by "even though she's so sexualized, I like her". I just want to know where is this grand sexualization to a point it's constitute part of the character. I know she was sexualized in a way, that fucking lower zip always drove me insane like ZIP IT UP WOMAN but she got a total of 3:45 min screentime, it's stupid or maybe very telling of the people's part if her unzipped suit is the most memorable of those nearly 4 hours. I honestly think it's because Scarlett is a hot woman with ample chest & those misogynist dudebro nerds only cared for her body & treated as an eye candy and refused to acknowledge her effectiveness then others just believed in the loud notices, it's like circular victim blaming.

I get ur point, but i think its good that ppl point this out so studios will stop with the unnecessary shots on female characters. And maybe actually put more efforts on building their story and their arc.

A character can be sexy and loose in a non sexualized way. They can be sexy spy without having to appeal to men or to anyone. I don’t think ppl meant to reduce her character to how she was represented visually, rather theyre pointing it out.

Because if we don’t, she’ll just stay a side character that they use to uplift other characters. I mean look where we are now? All the og avengers had their back stories all fleshed out, they showed it on screen and we get an even deeper understanding of their character.

Albeit Natasha is not a side character, but how much do we actually know about her? How long did it take til she had her own solo movie? No disrespect to Captain Marvel, but she was the first female avengers to be introduced in the mcu. Why did it took her death to get her a movie? how much did we get to enjoy her story on screen? They kept talking about the infamous Budapest story, yeah Nat told us the story, but are u really fucking staisfied with that??

You see where I’m getting at?

Natasha is such an amazing character with an amazing story and complex personality, yet we barely get to see it. Instead of exploring her character they often use her to push another character’s arc. It’s stupid, it’s lazy, and honestly waste of potential.

I love ur take on that car scene where she changed her clothes. But in my opinion that scene could’ve been done in a different way, yet still showed her loose personality. You can tell the studio meant for that scene to appeal to men. Compare that scene, with her changing clothes in BW movie. See the difference? Same type of scene, shot in a different way, with a different mindset.

As much as i would love to brush off those scenes as part of her character, if we keep letting these studios go like that. They’re just gonna keep using great female characters as a tool to push the arc of male characters while disregarding her own story.

#vlake answers

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pjsks · 2 years ago

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SAO (Eps. 1-2, 5, 8) Blog Post

Sword Art Online is such a classic. Watching this again made me so nostalgic. Even though everyone attacks this show for its many plot holes, overall inconsistent pacing, and very fanservice-y portrayals of female characters, you can't deny that it's a fun watch. It's also really funny that the day of the in-game launch (November 6, 2022) has already passed. I always find it interesting when futuristic stories are written with a set date and year in the future because the creators are imagining the capabilities of the future's technological advancement and try to pick a date that these events can realistically take place. We do have VR now, but it is not quite as advanced as Sword Art Online makes VR out to be. I also highly doubt it would be affordable to high schoolers like it is in the anime.

I want to talk about Episode 5 because I think the argument between Kirito and Asuna about the value of NPCs' lives was interesting. Even though initially, Sword Art Online is viewed as a game and therefore "unreal," it started to feel more real and present due to the actuality of death. NPCs aren't real people, but their deaths are "realistic" and in addition, the "real people" in the game are able to die for real. Kirito felt bad about letting NPCs die for the sake of the mission, but Asuna argued that the NPCs were just "objects." While they are pieces of data, they physically look human. Making this distinction between player and NPC feels morally gray. What do you think about that?

I will say that I think it's interesting that Asuna, a whole teenager, is placed in a position of high power in the guild. As capable as she is, it still feels a bit odd to me that she is in charge of grown men. If it was any normal game where anonymity is a huge factor, it would make sense. I feel that this is one of those things where it is difficult for the players to distinguish game and real life semantics and how they should be applied to such a specific situation. They have to navigate which "culture" should apply where. I honestly did not like how Asuna was characterized, and to be very honest, watching this again reminds me why I preferred other female leads in SAO over her.

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herotheshiro · 1 year ago

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alrighty it's been a few days since i finished weak hero class 1, i wanted to write down my thoughts about it asap before my perception gets molded even more by time, online posts, and fancontent.

for anyone interested in reading this HELLA long post, just note that i'm p much a drama-only person. i did read up to ch 39 of the webtoon though, and i still plan to make comments about the adapation aspect & where s2 can take the story from here based on the drama/webtoon but just note that's where all my base knowledge is coming from. this post will have spoilers about the full drama

the show & story as a whole

i feel like i generally share the same opinions as mainstream about the drama... it was a good story - the pacing was excellent imo, i don't feel like anything lingered too long or was waaay too underdeveloped. i was honestly shocked when i saw we were at like ep 5-6 when bumseok finally turned, i thought he would've turned at the halfway point (ep 4) but again based on all the developments and what was to come, it was a good time when he did.

i went in p much having some idea of future scenes, and then later knowing roughly the plot of the season. i had no knowledge of the webtoon, like i think i learned it was based off of a webtoon when i 1st looked it up to watch but i had never heard of it before despite it being popular (?). i watched 2 eps, learned that the entirety of s1 covered the backstory of sieun that was simply just 1 part of the webtoon, read the webtoon to read the original writing of the backstory up to ch 39, and then finished the rest of the drama. did not continue past ch 39 bc tbh the webtoon does not interest me, the plot of HS boys warring really does not intrigue me lol.

(also... when stories that are not romance-based have female characters/representation i'm not happy with... that also turns me off to the story. i can make excuses for romance-based stories having weak characterization for the losers lol but to my knowledge weak hero is not a romance story - even if i am really suspecting the author low-key wanted to write BL but didn't go through w it. some of the stuff i'm seeing from later ch of the webtoon... why was gray lightly blushing when he was like i could have been friends w donald? sure technically there's nothing inherently romantic but that but also...)

i kind of wish i had gone w a completely or almost completely clean slate, i think there were a couple scenes where i didn't get the full emotional hit of bc i had seen gifs of it before (like the scene where sieun smiles for the 1st time when suho is poking at him in the hospital). i started knowing bumseok was gonna pull some shit, but i didn't know the full aspect until i read the webtoon. so i think if i had a do-over, i wish i could have looked at less stuff before finishing the full series... but i think knowing the webtoon story definitely made me like less sad about & better understand the developments overall.

honing in on some aspects

i feel like this hinges on a hot take but perhaps not surprising given my comments just now, but i honestly think the drama's writing is much better than the webtoon's - and this may be bc the drama had the benefit of retrospect, of having a solidified trajectory of sieun's story after this. (note: from now on, korean names refer to the drama character, anglicized names refer to the webtoon version) i was really surprised to see how different suho and stephen are as characters, but i do prefer suho over stephen... like the character morals are still present in the drama, and both characters are ppl who you really feel for when they're suffering through the injustice, but honestly... stephen is kind of not as likeable.

like his shtick of donating all his awards and stuff to the class & being like "oh i really enjoy helping others :)" just feels kind of fictional (derogatory) to me... while suho is more relatable with his initial resistance to help someone he barely knows, and his morals of doing the right thing shown through smaller actions (stopping his hit when he realizes someone is down fr - also his fight w the baseball team is so good bc it is a really good intro to suho's character without words; demanding the bullies get back in line when they cut) rather than a grandiose kind of thing. maybe it's bc i'm cynical and irl low-key suspicious of ppl who are extremely altruistic, and stephen being the way he is makes what happens to him in the end even more unfair which is the point - but yeah. also i prefer suho in the drama over stephen's "i would wipe the floor w all of your asses academically if i applied myself but i just won't ;)" even if technically the sentiment is still there w suho's ability to beatdown. but yeah, the rewrite of suho was really good (perhaps even needed) imo.

also them rewriting suho as someone who knows how to fight while stephen just got his ass beat... again, makes his fate more excruciating w how he let himself get whaled on & bullied to protect gray, and makes the bullies even more cruel but... i'm sorry i prefer suho fighting back. tbh i wonder why they didn't keep the story aspect of being put into a coma via falling from the roof but i guess it gives bumseok/bryce more direct involvement and reason for sieun to go off like he does (he's let this slide for the entire time but this time he can't given the direct action against his best friend)

i've seen posts being like suho seems to have aspects of sieun's future eunjung friends (me when i saw gerard sleeping on the desks: is this an ahn suho reference???), which i think will actually make s2 better bc it gives more incentive as to why sieun will even consider befriending the boys - rather than in the webtoon, which iirc/imo feels more like the boys just hang around sieun enough times for him to be like "fine, i guess we can be friends". bc remember, he has just lost his 2 only friends in extremely painful ways... he will need to be drawn to positive aspects (e.g., things he liked or remembers distinctly about suho) in order to open his heart again.

also... i have to bring this up bc i distinctly had thoughts about this when i saw it but them having a shower scene to match the same scene in the webtoon... literally groaned bc enough sexualization of younger characters but also of all the things to be faithful on... i get why they included it to show how suho is p much living at school and doesn't live the same life as his classmates but why... i saw an interview (supposedly, it was someone writing it up on twt) where choi hyunwook was like "it's hard to watch that shower scene bc it was my 1st ever exposure scene but i tried my best" and i'm like dude... i feel you as a viewer

other than suho/stephen, bumseok is the biggest and most obvious example of adaption change - like sure, characters should be allowed to just be assholes with no sob story to "explain" their actions, but i enjoyed them expanding bryce's character to be a bigger part of the friendship trio and give more reason as to why suho and sieun let his assholery slide until it's too late. bumseok's inferiority complex is honestly pretty relatable, and the scene where they reveal for the first time how badly his dad abuses him made me cover my mouth, but obviously it doesn't excuse the shit he ends up doing... but all together, it's understandable why he breaks down the way he does.

also, i really enjoyed how the violence at the end of the season took on more of a tone of "you can beat up whoever you want but it won't necessarily satisfy you how you like or bring back what's lost". bumseok had multiple times of beating ppl up and when he finally got his kicks in on the guy who really set off his inferiority complex, he realizes this wasn't what he wanted. in the webtoon, gray's beatdown of suho's bullies was presented kind of triumphantly, and there was definitely a sense of "hell yea" when sieun was going apeshit on them - but by the time we get to the last guys, that scene w bumseok where he can't bring himself to hit his ex-friend despite literally watching bumseok kick the shit out of suho... not only does it show sieun's warm-heartedness, but it adds to sense of defeat he has at the end with his outburst in the hallway and visiting suho after the adrenaline of fighting wears off. i think part of it was the show not wanting to support senseless violence in schools, but i think it was a nice change from the webtoon. also matched the story better since bumseok had more of a sympathetic backstory, had regret over what he did to suho, and also already got his ass beat physically & emotionally by his dad over suho anyway. no need for him to keep getting whaled on for the point to sink in

i'm also pleased they didn't super push a romance with youngyi, the initial interactions bw her and sieun were refreshing but i was still scared and thankfully p much the rest of their interactions in the season can easily be interpreted platonically. i still wonder a little if her character was really necessary given bumseok was already a 3rd wheel (like it was pretty obvious he wasn't exactly on the same standing like sieun and suho are to each other, mostly bc they didn't know much abt him really), but it is bc her headstrong nature kind of forces bumseok into the 4th wheel category and worsens everything since we all know bumseok embraced his inferiority complex rather than the discomfort of putting himself out there for his burgeoning friends.

i kind of wish though she didn't have so much dialogue of her being like "do you have a crush on me? ;P", like the times it happened were p much in a row repeatedly within 2 eps and i was like ok let's chill we know she's mainly here as a love interest but... i would've preferred less focus on her relation to male units and more about her as a character. on the other hand, her constantly checking her romantic value could kind of imply she has issues with self-confidence and is just putting up a front (also noting that she loves to post to social media of her having friends p much)... to her, it's like her involvement w ppl she considers her friends ends up hurting them in the end (seokdae getting beat up and arrested, sieun losing suho). which would add to why she was so affected by bumseok's accusation at the end, that maybe she wasn't that confident in them liking her as a person and that sieun, p much her only friend at the end of all this, may actually hate her bc she inadvertently contributed to suho's coma.

i personally think it's pretty likely youngyi will return in s2, i was surprised when they kinda wrote her off real quick at the end but no way she (and seokdae) are gonna be 1 season characters... i'm really betting she will return in s2 and (cringe) become sieun's love interest fr. i'm not necessarily against them being a thing, but i don't think there's enough development bw them yet at this point to be for it / not a huge fan of their dynamic in a romantic sense... honestly if anything, i would be for suho/youngyi, but sieun has the main character rizz i guess lol. anyway that one scene in the hospital where they handwave a love "triangle" bw sieun, suho, and youngyi... ngl the 1st time i watched it i really felt like it was less suho & sieun -> youngyi and more suho & youngyi -> sieun (and i'm not even talking about the scene afterwards where suho calls sieun warm-hearted which i think a lot of ppl tend to interpret romantically. also i feel like the term "warm-hearted" is such a good, succinct descriptor of sieun's character - to me, it doesn't necessarily mean kind per se but that he cares).

the gilsoo story (hopefully i'm spelling that right, i feel like i saw su before but idk the hangeul being used. but apparently u and oo are both used?? all my korean lang knowledge is from duolingo so forgive me)... i was wondering how relevant this addition is to the overall story (idr it being in the webtoon, i know gilsoo as a character wasn't in the stephen story for sure but idr if there was a gambling thing going on), but i was thinking on it while writing this and i realize it could actually be a good lead-in to s2 developments... it could be that gilsoo was part of donald na's network of dealings and sieun taking him down is partially why donald goes after sieun... and then seokdae could come back and help sieun take down donald based on his knowledge of how gilsu worked and who he worked with... i am aware that eugene supposedly plays a role in taking down donald by impacting his networks (this was based on a reddit post i read, i literally don't know) so if you remove that (sorry man, but for the record i also don't enjoy eugene as a character based on what i've read so far so. not sorry) this could be a good way to have a continuity bw the 2 seasons. if they don't do something like this, then that's unfortunately mediocre writing, or i'm missing info of what exactly gilsoo is adapting from the webtoon.

where do we go from here

and now another extremely hot take... i actually think the ending of s1 is a satisfying conclusion to suho's story. this is mainly due to that last scene bw suho and sieun in the hospital (which is also actually my favorite scene out of the entire show, with the surrounding context. i had actually seen gifs of that scene beforehand, but i was so happy afterwards that i never got spoiled to the surrounding context bc i was able to get at least a good chunk of the emotional effect... genuinely felt that crushing feeling in my chest every time i thought of that scene the day after finishing the show. i'm really affected by ppl mourning/yearning for things they no longer can have) - their soft apologies to each other for hurting the other, albeit if it's technically one-sided, i think is a good wrap-up of sorts since suho will be in the coma indefinitely (webtoon knowledge lol). it does provide a sense of finality of their friendship to sieun, not only the imagined apologies but the realization that they both made their choices and sieun (and tech suho) is left to deal with the aftermath.

but also narrative-wise it makes sense for sieun and suho to never interact again - it's what drives sieun's protectiveness of his friends, the fact that his 1st/recent close friendships were shattered and are no longer accessible to him. him regaining suho's friendship via suho waking up in s2 (if it's not at the very end after everything w the association) just weakens that point imo, he needs to develop his relationships w the eunjang bros separately. i've heard stephen does get mentioned/"show up" via memories but i'm under the impression he p much disappears after his flashback arc (outside of the impact on gray's character) - honestly i wonder why the author left him in a coma instead of straight up killing him since that "good bye stephen" seemed to have a lot of finality to it... but i mean the emotional hit to gray would've def been way worse if he had died straight up. anyway low-key suspect the author might have him wake up in a post-story side story but that's just wishful thinking. i personally suspect suho will get "written off" p early in s2 since they didn't already in s1 - like sieun will go back to seoul to visit suho and the hospital will be like "oh sorry he got transferred and we can't tell you where due to confidentiality" and i guess the grandma died or got put in a nursing home to remove that possibility bc no way the grandma wouldn't tell suho's friend about where he went. and sieun will be in despair for a few moments until his eunjung friends are like "hey you good?" (via text message or maybe they came w him) and he decides to move on idk lol. all in all, i don't think suho is gonna feature a ton in s2 and i think that's for the better.

tbh, given the ending of s1/sieun's backstory with suho, i think people should actually go into the drama either having read the backstory itself via webtoon, or have the knowledge that suho's story is literally only 10-15 ch out of a 200+ ongoing webtoon. i think that's definitely what made me accept suho's coma more easily - i've read a few fix-the-ending fics where suho wakes up and while those are sweet & i get why they're wanted, i think it is unrealistic given the knowledge of where the webtoon goes from here. but tbh, i'm really surprised they chose to focus the ENTIRE s1 on the stephen backstory... like how tf are you gonna adequately cover the rest of the gd story in the next season? i'm saying that bc i heard the original plan for the weak hero drama was to have 2 seasons, but bro you need 3 seasons even if you remove a bunch of the fights and reduce the length of time spent on flashbacks... again, i have very little knowledge of the rest of the webtoon after ch 39 (arguably nonexistent) but idk. also the reference to donald na and the association at the very end... it is really super random given the story of s1 and how they did not mention ANYTHING about HS gangs/wars until now. again, given that the webtoon's literal MAIN STORY is about this gang wars stuff, i'm surprised they spent so much time on sieun's backstory nor did they have ANY mention of HS wars (btw was none of that happening in seoul? or is everything happening in the neighborhood that eunjang is in)... like tbh i feel like they could have provided enough meaning if they had just dedicated 3 eps to suho. to my knowledge, there's not TOO many events they pulled from the main story to write the s1 story, so there's a ton left to get into. plus there's like maybe at least 10 significant relevant characters to introduce in s2... how are they gonna develop all of those units well? s1 did p good w its current number, but idk how good self-contained stories can be when there's like billions of units involved. i personally think they'll remove a good number of units to the chagrin of webtoon fans, but man it is necessary fr.

anyway all that p much implies i am interested in watching s2 when it releases (i'm saying it will but i guess it's not really set in stone yet?). i actually wasn't really planning on it when i was in the middle of s1, given that i'm not interested in weak hero's webtoon & therefore its actual story, but man park jihoon. he really drew me in and i want to see where his character goes in s2. honestly still can't get over the fact that he used to be a relatively well-known kpop idol with a cute image and all his prev acting roles are cutesy characters... really explained why he seemed super comfortable in interviews & variety show esque stuff. as everyone else has been saying, the acting was good in this drama - i feel like i really realized what subtle acting was from this, but also for the record weak hero class 1 is the 1st tv series i have finished in maybe years, i don't watch much stuff out of depressive laziness lol. park jihoon's expressions were subtle but definitely enough to key you in on sieun's various emotions despite being relatively emotion-less - i read he purposely spent a lot of time developing that, and his hard work obviously paid off. his "crazy eyes" at the very end when he's in eunjung... ugh so good to show how much sieun has changed from that 1st instance he was bullied by youngbin.

hold on! what do i hear...

one last thing before i finish up - the soundtrack. omg. i was listening to hero and homesick on repeat for like 2 days... the music & lyrics match the show really well. homesick and again's lyrics... genuinely was struck by them when i read them for the 1st time. homesick is also very nostalgic-sounding to me bc it reminds me of music i listened to during a recent period in my life, so there's that too. hero is really good as well, and also them playing that acoustic version during the ep 7 credits... ough...

personally, i associate the songs this way, maybe this is common thought but i was like eureka when i came to these realizations:

hero - general

brass knuckle - general

homesick - sieun's pov

self - suho's pov

again - honestly... bumseok's pov. originally i thought of it as sieun, and it does match sieun imo, but i read the lyrics again thinking about how this plays when bumseok realizes what he's done to suho and i was like wait...

in summary

weak hero class 1 was a good drama/season. the writing of the season's story was solid, and the actors do a good job of showing not telling through their expressions/body language. the cinematography/editing is pretty, really liked the constant use of blue. the choreography/editing of the fights is also good (again, suho's fight w the baseball team... chef's KISS), even if there are definitely shots where you can pretty clearly see the gap of space bw the hit and the person being hit (complete tangent, but i always think of this video essay every time i think about fighting choreography so i kind of judge all fighting choreo off of that lol. yes i know it's just 1 person's opinion but whatever they're right). my very 1st opinion upon finishing it was "this was an interesting adaption of the webtoon (positive)" and that p much summarizes it. i don't know if i'd ever rewatch it (kind of the case w p much everything for me though, i'm p lazy and don't enjoy re-doing things), but i'm glad i watched it in the 1st place. also i definitely do not have a network of ppl who consume korean media bc i had never heard of this show before i saw it in passing on IG but it came out literally a year ago lol... based on that, i wouldn't even be surprised if i ended up missing s2 when it 1st comes out

also real quick now that i mentioned it... the IG vid i saw was an edit/cut of sieun and suho's 1st meeting with the music "sweet little bumblebee". cannot get over how much that song does not fit them yet that was my 1st experience w this show/series

an aside

alright i waited until the very end to bring this up bc i know this is not everyone's cup of tea but. i have to mention it given the nature of my other posts on this blog. i did touch on this kind of topic earlier though so y'all should see this coming

the ship of suho and sieun :) y'all know me, i think it's cute bc i love genki-adjacent units x reserved units. but overall i think what is most engaging about this drama is the complicated relationships bw sieun, suho, and bumseok (not shipping) and how other folks play into that storm. also i have read fics and seen fanart and honestly i'm not a huge fan of the popular depiction of the ship... like babygirl sieun, suave or super excited suho... no offense, but that's not how i would characterize them... idk how to really explain bc i don't have much plans on producing a significant number of fancontent (if any), but i feel like they would be a very reserved kind of couple. like suho would barely change how he treats sieun bw friends and dating, maybe just a bit more flirtatious language just to get a rise out of sieun. maybe sieun would warm up to suho but he would still be very reserved, half the time he would still push suho off if he tried to kiss him or get handsy but in an annoyed way rather than embarrassed (if you don't let me study by god i will not be responsible for what happens next). idk, this one is less clear in my mind bc i feel like i'm getting affected by the fan stuff i'm seeing and the amt of time since finishing the show is making me lose my memories lol. btw still on the fence about some of the suggestive dialogue in the drama, maybe it was meant to just show suho was a playful character but also stfu about being a married couple in a past life... (sarcasm. but also the "stop playing hard to get" line during the pool scene got to me more since i hadn't seen it online anywhere before, really wish i understood korean so i could tell if that was an accurate translation or not)

talking about suho/sieun... honestly i was surprised when the webtoon author explicitly covered ppl seeing gray and stephen as gay... pleased there was no homophobia bw the 2 which i was honestly expecting, just them brushing it off & being like "damn ppl just don't understand our bond". but also it isn't entirely out of left field to say gray may have had some romantic feelings toward stephen, w the way he reacted to the idea of them dating, which is apparently a reaction he has never had again in the webtoon... not looking that deep into it though, same-gender-friend-crushes happen. again, i don't read the webtoon so idk where they go from there. just adds more to gray's sadness when he reflects on the past if anything

#i don't want to tag the series but i think even just mentioning it in the post is enough for it to show up in the tags #watching #wow have never used that tag bc the last time i reviewed something i watched was literally years ago before i started specifically tagging #also idk how good this post is bc i wrote half of it 2 days after finishing and then wrote the rest like days later #might re-read later and add on. the point of this post is really just something for future me to remember the show #i've gone back on this post several times before posting so i should have gotten everything i wanted to #added subtitles for easier reading for future me lol. even i don't want to read all this

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skaruresonic · 1 year ago

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This is really it, huh. The start of my villain origin story.

I have no fucking idea why SA2's characters are getting this treatment all of a sudden. My guess would be that Sonic 3 hype is spawning these galaxy-brained takes. And what joy it is. What infuriates me most about takes like these is that, buried deep down, they have the smallest grain of truth to them. In some ways it'd be easier to dismiss it all as pure bullshit, but because it takes on the smallest kernel of truth and exaggerates it to extremes, I have to give it 1% the benefit of the doubt. And at this point I don't really fucking feel like it, especially when they continue to shit on my favorites like this.

Was Maria underwritten? Possibly. I'd even agree with you if she said she'd got fridged for sake of giving the men around her something to angst about. But by the same token, acting like the only thing she did of note was die is disrespectful toward her character. And "boring" is a matter of taste, anyway.

I guarantee you Maria would not be received any better by fandom had she been a morally gray female scientist on the ARK. I know this from firsthand experience with seeing the treatment of another morally gray female scientist in a different fandom: Judith Mossman. Mossman is HL2's token female scientist, a traitor to the Resistance who experiences a heel-face turn at the game's climax. It's rather ambiguous as to whether she was a triple agent or a double agent who experienced a genuine change of heart after seeing through Breen's bullshit. The point is, other than Alyx, Mossman is really the only "fleshed-out" female character HL has. (I'm not counting Gina and Colette from Decay here because we don't see them again, and they don't seem to undergo any discernible character arcs anyway.) Her morality is ambivalent at best, and people seem to have a really tough time grappling with her cheery "mask" that she uses to conceal her true feelings. Most tend not to like her, part of which is deliberate but also not.

That's not to say Mossman doesn't do some genuinely fucked-up things like essentially leaving Gordon and Alyx to die in Nova Prospekt, but her situation isn't nearly as black-and-white as "Alyx's jealous stepmother figure gleefully throwing her to the wolves because she wants to spare Eli's life." She shows both conniving and contrition, cowardice and courage. All things considered, Mossman turned out rather nuanced for a character Valve originally envisioned in a more misogynistic vein as a female Judas. Although Judith and the Metrocop Barney play roughly the same role of the mole (and while Barney is arguably more of a blank slate than Mossman), Barney is the one who gets all the angsty fic delving into his psychology, while Mossman receives peanuts at best and character-bashing at worst (Epistle 3 says hi). I have a very strong suspicion this is because the same jerkassness towards Gordon that's excused in Barney doesn't fly when it seems to come to Mossman, who the player can sense harbors some sort of hostility towards Freeman. Literally the only difference between these two characters is gender.

And even though the occasional "Mossman was done so dirty" post pops up here and there, it's not nearly enough to offset how ignored and/or hated she is at large. Because fandom structurally has a misogyny problem.

Changing Maria's character won't change the fact that fandoms hate female characters regardless of personality, role, or moral alignment. Not to mention you're still buying into the Madonna/whore complex by implying that being a Madonna is a bad thing.

This is why gatekeeping is important, kids

Seriously, "the mysterious Maria"? This sounds like what someone would say if they're only experience or exposure to the concept of the character Maria is hearing people talk about her on social media. Never actually played any of the video games in which she appears in, or even seen the anime or read the comics in which she appears in.

There's no fucking "mystery," sweetheart. Literally what the fuck are you talking about?? We know basically everything there is to know about Maria from the first game she appears in. The only way you'd think there's a "mystery" is if you never played ANY Sonic game and only hear fans mention her in passing. These people need to be banned from the internet.

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lizzybugg · 3 years ago

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So I have always preferred the morally gray fantasy men (not always the villains). Seriously. I just want them to exist in my world (or better yet, for me to exist in their world). Here is a short list of only some of the fictional men I am attracted to, what they are from, and what my rating out of 10 is for them:

Rhysand (A Court of Thorns and Roses) 10/10

Utter perfection. The most beautiful High Lord in all of Prythian. Rhysand is the most stunning High Lord, Rhysand is the most clever High Lord, Rhysand is the best lover a female could ask for. Seriously. I just want to be his High Lady. Also… that wingspan…

The Darkling/Aleksander (Shadow and Bone) 8/10

Not gonna lie, I actually sided with him in the books (and currently in the show). I absolutely agreed with him in protecting the Grisha. And his method was honestly the only way to really do that. He’d tried a slow change over centuries and got nowhere. So yeah. I would absolutely side with him with a second thought if I were in the Grishaverse. I’d be his Sun Summoner and gladly help him conquer Ravka if it meant protecting fellow Grisha.

Thomas Cresswell (Stalking Jack the Ripper) 10/10

LITERALLY RHYSAND BUT MORTAL AND SET IN THE 1880s! His quick wit and charm are everything. He is respectful, funny, intuitive, and such a gentleman while also somehow being scandalous?!?!? Like… My man is over here respecting boundaries and always seeing if his love is okay while also stroking her hair, holding her hand, or kissing her (all of which was frowned upon if you did this before getting married). He also solves crimes and as a forensics student myself, I find that insanely hot. Also SPOILER: he’s Prince Vlad Dracula’s last living male heir!!! A Dark Prince (just like how Feyre described Rhysand in ACOMAF).

Phantom of the Opera/Erik (The Phantom of the Opera) 9/10

His voice is the biggest thing! Okay? I am in love with his voice! It’s one of the things I’m praying for my husband—is that he sings like the Phantom. I can sing Christine’s notes easily. I need a husband who can easily sing Phantom of the Opera with me. And while I get that he was “toxic”, keep in mind that he suffered a lot as a child and had no counseling/therapy. I’m just saying… If I ever go to France, it won’t be to start a revolution. I’m volunteering to be kidnapped in an opera house. ✋🏻🙄

Cassian and Azriel (A Court of Thorns and Roses) 10/10

I had to include my other Illyrian babies. I absolutely love them. Even my sister loves them and she hasn’t read the series. Cassian is funny but serious when he needs to be. And Azriel is aloof at times but always cares for his friends. And, honestly, if I wasn’t already in love with him before ACOWAR, I was definitely head over heels when he said, “Be careful how you speak about my High Lady.” AAAAAAaaaaaaaaHhHhhHh. Side note: we all know Azriel’s wingspan is bigger. Okay… I’m gonna go die now.

Ze’ev “Wolf” Kesley (The Lunar Chronicles) 9/10

I consider him “morally gray” because of his history with Queen Levana and the fact that he is Alpha of a regime of deadly half wolf, half Lunar creatures. Honestly, he’s so cute. I would be perfectly content with just being friends, to be honest. But if he were my boyfriend/mate, I’d die from fangirling. He’s baby and no one can convince me otherwise. Plus, he taught Cinder how to fight and got her to try and use her powers on him (which he was abused my Lunar gifts for years). Absolutely the best.

Loki (Marvel) 10/10

Need I say more? Clearly, I do. 1. He reads. I read. I feel like we would just cuddle and read together. 2. I’m absolutely certain he is a tea drinker. I love tea (both the drink and the TEA👀). 3. His character arc was amazing. And his brotherly bond with Thor despite “hating” him was beautiful. 4. Knives. I’m certain he would teach me hand to hand combat with knives if I asked.

This was just a short list. I have a TON more. But I’m gonna stop with what I have already. 😂

#books #morally gray fantasy villain #morally gray #rhysand #high lord of the night court #book husband #book boyfriend #book mate #cassian #azriel #thomas cresswell #ze’ev kesley #loki #phantom of the opera #erik the phantom #someone help #i know i need therapy #fangirl

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wondereads · 3 years ago

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Personal Review (04/24/22)

Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao

Why am I reviewing this book?

I've been looking forward to this book for ages, and I got a copy as soon as I could. It took some time before I could actually read it, but I finally get to review it!

Plot 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

In a world invaded by Hunduns, huge aliens that have trampled over human civilization, humanity is reliant on Chrysalises, robots made from Hundun shells. Chrysalises protect the last of humanity, but they require both a male and female pilot, and it usually leaves the women drained or dead. After her sister is killed by a star pilot, Zetian swears to get revenge, but she won't stop at just one pilot.

You can probably see the similarity to other pieces of media, but the plot similarities end there. Rather than a focus on the conflict with the Hunduns, the story is really all about the corruption among the humans and Zetian's rise to power. Sure, they go out and fight, which moves the plot along, but the majority of the plot is taken up by Zetian, Shimin, and Yizhi gradually increasing their standing and pursuing the truth about Chrysalises.

Now, I thoroughly enjoyed this book, but I must warn against starting it now. The second book, Heavenly Tyrant (which might not be the last), is scheduled to be released in Spring 2023. See, that's a very big issue because the cliffhanger for this book is truly insane. The plot twist was amazingly shocking without feeling as though it was pulled out of nowhere, and I am completely hooked for the next book.

Characters 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Zetian is a fun character because she is completely and utterly ruthless. She wants power, and she's going to get it, regardless of who she has to manipulate, destroy, or kill. She's a very good example of a character who can be morally reprehensible while still pursuing a goal that would improve the world in the long run. She's the epitome of "the ends justify the means", and it makes for a very interesting character.

There are two love interests in this book, but not in the way you're thinking. Another thing that sets Iron Widow apart is that it features a polyamorous relationship between Zetian and two boys, Shimin and Yizhi. Shimin is the horribly traumatized pilot that Zetian is paired up with after she kills her first partner, and Yizhi is a friend from her hometown and the son of a media kingpin. The three work very well together in my opinion. For example, Yizhi balances Zetian and Shimin's hotheadedness without holding them back. Even if they didn't get much time due to plot interruptions, I can see their relationship developing very well.

The side characters were sometimes flat, but there were some with more nuanced personalities. For example, the other concubine pilots (yes, that's what they're called), are rather interesting because they are some of the few women with power in this society. Seeing how they adapted in different ways was both intriguing and frustrating.

Writing Style 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

I wouldn't say anything about the writing that particularly stood out to me. Something I noticed was the first-person POV. I'm partial to third-person myself, but YA books do tend towards first. I did like how Zetian's cold nature came through in her narration, and I also liked that we could see her inner struggles up close and personal. On the other hand, I would've loved to see something from Shimin or Yizhi's perspective, but I can't have my cake and eat it too.

The pacing was pretty quick, but I wouldn't consider anything rushed. Despite the political bits interspersed between the action, I was never bored, and it never seemed to lose momentum.

Meaning 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Zetian is a cold, ruthless, morally-gray protagonist, and the story lets her be just that. There is no lesson for her to learn, no morals forced upon her. Zetian pursues power through all sorts of dubious means from physical intimidation to torture, and she's allowed to do all those things. Once she achieves actual political power, responsibilities and consequences do fall to her, but not in a way that implies she was wrong to pursue that power. Books will often condemn characters, especially female ones, for being power-hungry, so this was a breath of fresh air.

Overall 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

This was an amazing book. On top of being pretty well-written, it was just fun to read! It was engaging, it had a unique situation for the characters, and a great female main character with unpunished ambition. I'm on the edge of my seat for the next book; that cliffhanger was cruel! I definitely recommend this book for a fast-paced book that toes the line between fantasy and science fiction.

The Author

Xiran Jay Zhao: Chinese-Canadian, 24, Iron Widow is their debut novel, cosplays in their free time

The Reviewer

My name is Wonderose; I try to post a review every two weeks, sometimes once a week, usually over vacations. I take recommendations! Check out my about me post for more!

#books #reviews #iron widow #xiran jay zhao #fantasy #sci fi #ya

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jeannereames · 3 years ago

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Hi, love your blog and your books, they have been good for my knowledge, they had made clear some points that were cover by the mist of ignorance, I mean, when I was at school my teachers didn't know about Alexander so when we saw him in history class there were a lot of incoherences (sorry for my poor grammar, I'm still learning english).

Hephaestion is an interesting character, we don't know much about him but I have always wonder how he was as a husband, in my research it seems that he wasn't so interest in women like others were. I have wonder if that make him a careless or a typical (in the context of the history) husband? Did he marry because Alexander say so or because he wants to ensure his place? Does he felt pity for the girl or he didn't care about her at all? Was a better husband than Alexander?

And talking about Drypetis, we know about the famous beauty of her mother and of Roxanne. But how do you think that beauty was? Certainly, not like my modern view about attractiveness of a female, so I wonder yours.

Sorry for the long post! 🙃

We know nothing about his interest (or lack of it) in women. He did marry in Susa in 324 because Alexander told him to…along with 90 other officers. That doesn’t mean he was against the idea—may have been one of the few fully in favor of it for the politics.

While fictionally I’ll make hay over his lack of recorded lovers (of either gender), from an academic point of view…it’s meaningless.

This is probably a good time to review “arguments from silence,” and why they’re so tricky.

An ARGUMENT FROM SILENCE suggests a lack of evidence is significant. BUT this only works if one can demonstrate that such evidence ought to be there…and isn’t.

That’s hard to do for the ancient world as “a lack of evidence” describes our cursed lot. My modern historian colleagues are regularly astonished by how little we have, and what we can spin out from that little.

I bring this up is because arguments from silence are too common in pop history, which too often does them badly due to a lack of understanding regarding 1) what evidence IS available, 2) what should be available, and 3) what’s absolutely unsurprising not to find.

Sometimes students will ask me, “But didn’t they write stuff like that down?” (‘That’ varying.) The answer is often, “No.” Or more colorfully, “They didn’t give a shit.” Even in the Roman Empire, they lacked bureaucratic record-keeping as we understand it. In Greece, centuries earlier, a few city-states kept some records, but most didn’t, especially prior to the mid-4thCentury BCE. It’s connected to the “epigraphic habit”: the desire to record information (in public) for posterity, and the idea that record-keeping might be a good general idea often merge.

Even so, WHAT they thought worthy of recording isn’t always what we’d like to know. This, in turn, pertains to how they wrote historical texts: what they chose to report (or not).

So, with that background…

The problem with knowing Hephaistion’s sexual interest (or lack of it) in women is how and why our sources relate such information.

In short: they mostly don’t.

This owes to their LASER focus on Alexander. Even then, what each source tells about him varies. I think we can probably be sure we know all Alexander’s wives, although Barsine’s status is not completely clear (imo). I assume she was at least a palakē, which is a formal mistress: less than a wife, but more than a hetaira. Yet given Macedonian marriage practices, perhaps she was a wife in Macedonian eyes? The Greeks regularly “demoted” Macedonian royal wives to mistresses, so I don’t trust our sources on this score.

Whatever the case, we don’t know all Alexander’s female (or male) sexual liaisons outside his wives because the sources mostly don’t care. When they do care (ala Plutarch and Curtius), it’s for some—often Romanized—moral point. Which is a looong-ass way from anything the Macedonians cared about.

And if we don’t even know his, how can we assume we know his officers’? Hell-to-the-no!

We hear about these women only if they matter to the larger (Alexander-driven) narrative. So we know the name of Philotas’s mistress, Antigonē, because she was hired by Krateros to bring pillow talk back to Alexander. We know Harpalus’s mistresses because he spent oodles of treasury funds on them, and got in trouble for it (twice). We recognize the name Laïs because she later became the long-time mistress (palakē) of Ptolemy I, mother of some of his important offspring in the Successor wars.

Ergo, not knowing the names of Hephaistion’s mistresses—or whether he had any—is not significant. Outside of special circumstance, we wouldn’t expect to.

We DO know the name of his wife from the mass-marriages at Susa in the spring of 324 because she was a princess, sister of Alexander’s wife, and her selection for him had distinct political significance. Yet that doesn’t mean he didn’t have a wife already, back in Macedon. Others of Alexander’s officers did–one reason many promptly divorced their Persian brides after Alexander’s death. I note the possibility largely as it illustrates the level of what we don’t know.

My educated hunch is that Hephaistion’s marriage to Drypetis was his first marriage. And I don’t believe he had any children (even by-blows), or we’d have heard about them as a result of Alexander’s extravagant grief. Yet this is far from saying he had no mistresses—or boyfriends, for that matter.

Regarding Drypetis and his relationship with her…it’s a complete blank. We just don’t know how Hephaistion treated her, what she thought of him, or what he thought of her. They weren’t married long enough. The weddings were in early spring, after ATG got back to Susa following the Gedrosian march/rest in Karmania. He spent a while sorting business in Susa before he went on to Opis (and subsequent unrest/mutiny there). I suspect Hephaistion and Drypetis were married no more than 6-7 months. He died in early/mid-October. She wasn’t pregnant by his death, but given how busy that period was, it could be a function of his duties and lack of time.

As for the beauty of Persian royal/elite women, it seems to have been something remarked upon by more than just Alexander historians. We lack images of Achaemenid Persians, alas, but below is a lapis lazuli bust of among the most famous: Atossa, daughter of Cyrus, wife of Darius, and mother of Xerxes (lived second half of the 6th century BCE). Note the large eyes, high eyebrows (apparently plucked), and small mouth. Given the tendency to idealizing in Ancient Near Eastern art, this suggests what would have been considered high beauty.

Beneath her is a Roman copy of Praxiteles’s original Aphrodite of Knidos—considered the ideal of Greek female beauty in the early-mid 4th century BCE (based on the incomparable Phryne, Praxiteles’s mistress).

Both have an oval face with full cheeks, and we can see Aphrodite’s nicely plump. That meant something! She had enough to eat = wealth. The modern starved-skinny model with long face, strong jaw, and stark cheekbones…that’s attractive now partly owing to what photographs well: prominent features and thinness (because the camera adds pounds). Persians and Greeks preferred rounder features, heart-shaped faces, small bow mouths, soft jaws, and fullness in the body (plump, not overweight). About the only hold-over would be large eyes.

What I haven’t really noted is coloring…other than a preference for pale skin as that signified one had slaves (= rich) and didn’t have to work in the fields outside. Hair color and eye color just wasn’t that big of a deal. Sometimes it comes to the fore: gray-eyed Athena. (Although the word is generic for blue/gray/greenish.) Similar for Apollo and Dionysos, in the Homeric hymns. Dionysos had black hair there (as did Apollo). Both “blond-up” only in the Classical era. And Hera was noted for her extraordinarily beautiful “cow-eyes.” E.g., large and dark-dark brown.

BUT, because I love to support the Gingers of the World…RED-blond hair was considered the most desired in Greece. Aphrodite was a strawberry blonde (at least sometimes), as was Helen…when anybody bothered to note it. And (quite probably) Alexander.

#Hephaistion #Hephaestion #arguments from silence #problems of the sources #Alexander the Great #Drypetis #Alexander the Great's wives #standards of beauty #asks #what the sources tell us #Classics #tagamemnon #ancient macedonia #ancient greece #ancient history #Praxiteles #Aphrodite of Cnidus #Atossa

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lakesbian · 10 months ago

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yeah

no, not an anti-hero. also doesn't do a lot of morally dubious things--does one (1) thing that's unarguably morally atrocious and is more or less normal/not even doing anything notable the rest of the time

there's an in-universe explanation, but no justification. people do say that she did nothing wrong at times but in my experience it's in the sense of being flippant/post-ironic rather than genuinely attempting to argue that an incestuous sexual assault allegory was morally justifiable in the same way that people will genuinely attempt to argue that, e.g., Certain Gray Things taylor did were morally justifiable. this is not to say that people don't do logical backbends about it just that those backbends never involve articulating precisely what textually happened and then attempting to formulate a genuine rational argument as to why amy made the right choice? i know people have counterpoints to what i'm trying to say here and i'm trying to address those counterpoints in advance but i feel like i'm doing a bad job of phrasing it. i do think i am correct though.

yeah

that is a 3/5 but honestly. i feel like the middle two are more significantly definitive regarding the character type because "female character, either gay or people want her to be gay, and divisive" is really extremely vague. like that can apply to a million different characters. but the middle two are so specific about the role the character type plays in their story that i feel like without checking at least one of those off we absolutely cannot say that amy dallon is a vriska. taylor does check all five boxes though! we can say taylor is a vriska if we want

#does this veer too close to stupid amy shit to go in the stupid amy shit. im not sure if meta analysis of how people are arguing #about amy counts as arguing about amy enough to go in the blacklistable tag for arguing about amy #like to me id say no. but let me know

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izzyinarchive · 4 years ago

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discussing the final season of carmen sandiego

*spoilers* umm....so yeah, i finished watching carmen sandiego, and i’m left in a state of perpetual sadness and despair. i feel like the ending of the show wrapped up wayyy too fast, and kind of left off on a bit of an unsatisfactory note for some of the characters. although i love the large and diverse cast of carmen sandiego, one of the drawbacks of having all those characters and arcs and storylines makes it harder to cram in a satisfying conclusion for everyone in a twenty-minute episode. so here’s what i would do if there was more time.

let’s start off with the threads that i think were tied off pretty well:

julia & chase devineaux: i wasn’t really a shipper of julia and devineaux but i actually really enjoyed their relationship throughout season 4. we see a lot of character growth from devineaux in the way that he interacts with julia and the world. julia pushes devineaux to become a better person, to see things with a broader perspective and from other people’s points of view. and he does really change a lot into an understanding person instead of the overconfident, arrogant detective we first saw him as in season 1. in addition, he also grows to respect julia as a person and partner, and it’s completely adorable how he looks at her while zari tells julia that they’ll follow her lead. also i love how he keeps wearing his lucky cat jacket from san francisco in season 4.

el topo & le chevre: okay, i was pretty much shipping these two the minute they showed up on the screen together. you can tell how much they care about each other throughout the series. whenever one of them gets hurt, you can really see how they prioritize each other over whatever thing vile is planning. when things are good, they’re so sweet and they have so much fun together. and they take dumb cute selfies. they’re so, so adorable, and this season definitely brings the shipping fodder. and they end the season moving on from vile and running a food truck together. the only thing i’m mad about is that we definitely needed more screen time from them.

shadowsan: i didn’t like shadowsan in season 1 but over the course of the series he really went through a lot of major character development and i love how he’s now basically a grumpy dad figure to carmen. the season ends with him finally reuniting for good with his brother in japan, and it’s a satisfying conclusion for his arc. i also love how he was the one to help carmen in the finale when she’s struggling with the brainwashing thing. which is way better than the brainwashing being resolved by some bs like true love’s kiss. (also carmen and gray are way too hurt and they’re super not ready for a relationship.) carmen sandiego is a show that emphasizes the importance of family with this father-daughter duo, and i think that’s something really valuable. also i’m interpreting that shadowsan isn’t permanently moving to japan, but rather just visiting his brother. he’s still definitely going to be there for carmen going forward when she needs him.

player & carmen’s friendship: i love this show for having a male/female friendship with absolutely no romantic feelings going on. it’s a solid friendship, and depicts a wholesome, supportive relationship. absolutely no qualms here.

and here’s all the stuff that needs expanding/fixing:

tigress: i actually really love tigress as a character, and i personally think that there should have been more of her in the series. i would have liked to see more depth and motivation to her, since she has a lot of character potential. i don’t really know how i would rewrite tigress’s arc, because it’s virtually nonexistent and there’s not too much to go off of. i don’t think she needs a redemption arc, but i would give her more of a spotlight. (also low key fictional-crushing on her.) i would like to include sort of a tigress-centric episode, which can also generally be more expansion on the inner workings of vile.

cleo & saira: villain couple. villain couple. they need to be a villain couple, enough said. i would rewrite season 4 to have include an emotional downbeat moment in which saira struggles with being able to fit in with society and humans and being completely awkward at it while cleo, in all her regal and ettiquite-esque manners, tries to help. this wouldn’t really help with the main plot, but it would be humanizing and provide character depth. i feel like this could be the b-plot in the tigress episode somehow.

coach brunt: you don’t betray family. at this point, coach brunt has lost the daughter she raised, who, in her mind, has basically backstabbed her entirely. coach brunt was also betrayed by shadowsan and left for the police to find, and in season 4, malestrom basically abandons her to drown. and it’s highly likely that somewhere in her backstory she’s been betrayed many times, likely by her own blood family, which would provide context for why she’s such a loyal person to vile, who she thinks of as her found family. in rewriting season four, i’m adding one extra episode that’s solely on the backstory of coach brunt. in this episode, we would explore brunt’s upbringing and the first time she is betrayed by someone she considers family. in my opinion, coach brunt was likely pushed to fall by another influence, but she also makes the conscious choice to choose revenge over moving on. potentially, we could also explore brunt’s budding friendship with the mechanic, who we never see again after that one episode, as well as a reflection upon this from her adult self.

gray & the freaking mind control thing & his moral struggles: *sighs* i can see what the show is going for, but i really just don’t see it in the execution. the way that gray struggles with morality is like it’s an on and off switch. he’s either graham, basic civilian, or crackle, basically evil. in that one episode, he flip flops between being overly heroic, even taking out time from his day to specifically track down a random kid to return his wallet instead of just dropping it off at the police station or leaving it where he found it. and then the flip side is like he’s just robotically relapsing into stealing mode, where he just suddenly has to impluse to steal literally anything. i feel like this flip flop wasn’t really a good portrayal of his struggle and didn’t really demonstrate many active choices made by him. and the way that he’s just like “i’m actually just evil” when he confronts carmen at the lab is just super one-dimensional. i just don’t buy it that he flips to vile so quickly in the span of a few episodes. i feel like there should have been more active reflecting and the decision should have been dragged out longer.

also it’s revealed in the finale that gray also changed his crackle rod to not go beyond a stun, and i think this was a nice touch, because it demonstrates his aversion to murder, which calls back to the first caper, in which he’s confronted with killing the archeologist at the excavation site. but he doesn’t end up having to make that choice, because carmen stops him. but this time, it’s his own choice to take that step away from vile ideals. i don’t think gray is ever going to be a “hero” of the traditional sense or have a complete redemption arc, because it just doesn’t fit him. to be honest, i don’t know what the future will hold for gray, but i definitely think of he will fall somewhere along the lines of red x (teen titans) or catwoman’s (in certain comic runs) gray morality. (and i think the way gray returns to vile kind of screws this up.) he’s still going to steal stuff sometimes probably, but he’s not going to straight up murder people. he would probably be the type to work for himself alone mostly, but be okay teaming up with the good guys sometimes. definitely no joining evil organizations tho.

gray & carmen & the “i know you’re in there somewhere fight:” i definitely ship these two, but i think they’ve got a long way to go before they’re really ready to admit their feelings for each other. i’m happy that the “i know you’re in there somewhere fight” didn’t culminate in a kiss scene being the thing that snapped carmen out of the trance. because that is just so cliche and not the message of the show. instead, it’s shadowsan who does. and that makes sense going along with the themes of family. i think the issue with this i dislike how there is no more elaboration after carmen supposedly kills gray. this is her best friend. i would imagine that the reaction would be greater, since he was also her friend and teammate during the months they were both working under vile. and then when carmen’s brainwashing wears off, she agonizes that she killed her best friend. but that’s it. the “i know you’re in there somewhere fight” is the last screen appearance of both of them together. then it’s directly cutting to taking down vile. there should have been a hospital scene where carmen rides with him in the ambulance and talks to him as he’s unconscious, and leaves behind a note for him to read when he’s awake.

i just really think there should be a “heart to heart” scene somewhere in this finale where they confront their feelings (not romantic stuff, but more about like shared trauma at the hands of vile and their broken apart friendship). this could happen at that sydney cafe. both times carmen and gray go on a “date” she leaves him sitting there alone, bewlildered. i think the finale should include a scene of them leaving the cafe together and then walking away and waving to each other. this shows development in their relationship, and that they are now closer, but it also visually shows that they still have differences as they walk away with a sort of two toned kind of environment angle that shows the different paths they have chosen. (and carmen calls him gray. and he doesn’t correct her.) it’s more of a see you later, than a goodbye though. we’re also getting rid of that part of when gray says he doesn’t want to complicate carmen’s life in the hospital scene. instead, he’s going to ask for a sheet of paper on which he will write an indiscernible letter to carmen. (the same letter will be seen in at the carmen brand outerwear hq a few scenes later for continuity, but unopened at the time, as if carmen’s not yet ready to read it. i feel like both of them need to heal a bit on their own before they’re ready to reconnect. gray knows he has hurt carmen in the past but he also knows it will hurt her if he disappears without a trace, so he’s leaving her with the choice if she wants to see him again instead of making the choice for her.)

ivy & zach & found family: carmen leaves a note behind for ivy and zach and leaves to find her mother. i feel like this did not handle team red’s found family very well. basically, the whole show is setting up this importance of family, especially found family not blood family kind of narrative. vile blood runs in carmen’s veins but she chooses to do good and find her own family. ivy and zach both choose carmen, their found family, over their racing career. i think that they should have stuck together, and when carmen goes to find her mom, they would have been totally onboard dropping her off at the airport and saying a “see you soon” or actually driving her to carlotta valdez’s house in lydia (the car). i just don’t think that splitting them up via a note is really a satisfying conclusion to the whole found family aspect. and in that time skip carmen really should have stopped by to say hi to the zach and ivy and the acme squad instead of maintaining the air of mystery. that would have definitely pushed the family feel, instead of the mysterious loner archetype.

that time skip thing: yeah, no. this part was completely not needed and unhelpful. instead, we’re going to have carmen hug her mother at the airport, and go to visit all of her friends and found family, especially shadowsan in japan and ivy and zach in presumably boston. and the time skip will be a few onths not two effing years. i think it’s natural for them to grow apart a bit and pursue their own personal goals in life after vile’s gone, but they’ll definitely be staying in touch and reconnecting and seeing each other pretty often. and lastly of all, carmen will meet gray at the cafe in sydney.

basically, this is how i would redo the episodes for season 4.

episode 1: the beijing bullion caper. (this episode remains as is for the most part, i would like more expansion on lady doksu and shadowsan's past since it seems like their pasts are more tied together than is revealed)

episode 2: the big bad ivy caper. (this episode remains as is for the most part.)

episode 3: the robo caper. (the scenes in which carmen first meets the robot and ivy runs it over with a truck can stay the same. where we start to deviate is with gray’s story with a revised, more complex, and in depth view of his moral struggles. instead of being unaware largely as gray flops between graham/crackle, he’s going to be a lot more aware. he’s still going to rob the house, but instead it’s because he feels hopeless that since he was previously a criminal, that’s all he’s ever going to be. gray doesn’t want to be a civilian, and feels like the only thing that he can do instead is be a part of vile. however, when he sees carmen again, he’s going to realize that if she got out of vile, then that means he has a chance to get out of it too. gray comes to a crossroads of deciding between carmen and vile, good and evil.

episode 4: this will be the episode that concentrates on tigress, with a cleo/saira b-plot. most of this episode will take place within vile, and give more insights on the workings of the organization.

episode 5: the himalayan rescue caper. (this episode is going to get a real makeover. with the insertion of episode 4, this creates more actual space between the last time we see gray grappling with his big choices, which makes it feel like more time has passed. so it actually feels like he had more time to think. carmen’s still going to try to rescue gray, and the part with player can stay the same. as gray is manipulated by malestrom, i think this episode should further emphasize how vile manipulates their recruits and amp up the shittiness of how malestrom is acting. i think malestrom should say something along the lines indicating that vile is gray’s only family left, this is what he was born to do, he belongs with them, and make up a bunch of bullshit lies about carmen. malestrom will portray this stuff as the “truth” and then say something like “we told you to the full truth, while carmen was hiding your past from you. didn’t you say you wanted to piece together more of your past?” (which gray did express interest in a previous episode.) since more time has passed, malestrom will play the “if carmen wanted to rescue you, she would have done so already. she abandoned you.” card. of course, it’s not easy to get into a super advanced vile facility, so instead carmen’s going to be having more struggles with getting in, which is the real reason she’s taking a while.) i want to keep the scene where he says that his name is crackle, not gray and not graham. i think this scene is particularly painful because graham/crackle is kind representative of the two sides of good and evil that gray thinks he has to choose between. gray will accuse carmen of abandoning him, both in the present but demonstrating that he’s still hurt by the time when she first left vile, and all those times when she kept secrets from him and disappearing in sydney. carmen asks him to leave with her, but instead of him being like “i’m bad, and i was always a villain,” he’s just going to be hurt and feel manipulated and be so conflicted. i feel like gray would choose vile, but not because it’s where he belongs but because he’s afraid of being brainwashed again if he doesn’t agree and because he just wants to know the truth, which vile happened to tell him first (and carmen had been hiding it from him for a while). why would it make sense for gray to willingly side with vile because he’s “throughly bad?” actions speak louder than words, and it’s clear that he’s definitely not evil enough for vile.

episode 6: the vile history caper. (we’re just going to keep this episode as is for the most part. but like more el topo and le chevre moments.)

episode 7: this will be the coach brunt backstory episode, piggybacking off of her hurt feelings about maelstrom’s intended betrayal.

episode 8: the egyptian decryption caper. (this one is just going to be as is for the most part. the cleaners kidnap carmen, but we’re going insert one more painstaking scene of gray learning of vile’s plan to kidnap carmen. he’s not going to know they are planning to brainwash her. he’s going to feel conflicted and try to protest, but then realizes that now that he’s stuck with vile, if he goes against them he’s probably going to get brainwashed himself. and the brainwashing was really traumatizing, so it’s understandable he’s really afraid of it happening to him again.)

episode 9: the viennese waltz caper. (mostly just keeping this episode as is, but more worrying gray scenes. i feel like he should have had a bigger reaction to seeing carmen so unlike her personality. carmen’s lack of empathy should have pushed himself to question if vile is really a healthy place for anyone if they’re so willing to brainwash his best friend in a greater capacity. i think gray should recognize how bad the situation is but he still won’t act upon it since he’s trapped in the nostalgia of their old squad and since he’s been abandoned by carmen before, he’s too afraid that reversing the brainwashing will result in a repeat of her leaving him again. and he’s still afraid of the brainwashing.)

episode 10 + 11 + 12. the dark red caper. (yeah, this episode is kind of just way too quickly wrapped up. i’m going to expand this into a three parter so we have more time to focus on everyone. basically, we’re going to expand this for the angst. and because this is the last season and i need more content. i feel like we can follow the general plot trajectory but with more nuance and include the improvements i wrote above about the finale. absolutely pushing the found family trope to its limits, and less vagueness since there’s not going to be another season. oh yeah, and the scene when carmen fights shadowsan, i feel like they could have amped up the emotional stuff and make it as much as about him being her dad figure as the doll because #foundfamily. and also the extra time gives more space for all of that other stuff like endings for all the characters, and more team red found family, and a bit about the non-jailed vile operatives, and the acme team, and also maybe a little infrastructure rebuilding montage, and also that carmen and gray moment.)

basically i just want a satisfying ending for gray, and i love him, and he can’t just stare out of the hospital bedroom and agree to stay out of her life while melancholy music plays.

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madslorian · 4 years ago

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April Fanfic Recommendations

I'm back! I have unfortunately written 3 papers in the last 2 weeks and honestly even though I had time to read at night and come reblog stuff during the day, I could not compile this list for you in my spare time.

This is a collection of I believe 3 weeks, so I left out some stories that I will include in another post instead! This week we're trying something different where I include the author's tags or warnings. That makes me feel hella vulnerable fully exposing what I read, but it's okay! I want to be more open in what is intended for those 18+.

** means NSFW and not intended for those under 18, and please pay attention to warnings!

Authors mentioned this week:

@frannyzooey

@mylifeisactuallyamess

@starryeyedstories

@tintinwrites

@dameronology

@autumnleaves1991-blog

@ithinkhesgaybutwesavedmufasa

@absurdthirst

@bison-writes

@221bshrlocked

@heatherbel

@slater-baby

⊱{Frankie Morales}⊰

**RUNTIME BY FRANNYZOOEY

↳ Smut!!, cockwarming, PIV, and filthy dirty talk.

**TITLE MENU BY FRANNYZOOEY

↳ Smut!!, oral sex (female receiving), mutual masturbation, and another round of dirty talk making me blush.

**POST CREDITS SCENE BY FRANNYZOOEY

↳ Smut!!, PIV, and you guessed it, dirty talk.

⊱{Poe Dameron}⊰

**YAVIN HIGH REUNION BY MYLIFEISACTUALLYAMESS

↳ Smut!!, mentions of divorce, mention of a child, angst, fluff, alcohol, swearing.

IT'S TIME BY STARRYEYEDSTORIES

↳ Childbirth, swearing, emotions, but overall just a happy little Dameron family.

SOFT (MINI-SERIES) PART 1 / PART 2 BY TINTINWRITES

↳ Naughty words, sexual references, enjoy part 2...

THE LIGHT SIDE (MINI-SERIES) PART 1 / PART 2 / PART 3 BY TINTINWRITES

↳ Implications of sex, pregnant reader, fainting, naughty words, angry Poe, this one made my heart go soft.

**PROVOCATIVE (MINI-SERIES) PART 1 / PART 2 BY TINTINWRITES

↳ Smut!!, College Professor!Poe x Student!Reader, kinky, spanking, and then freaking out when emotions are mentioned.

INSOMNIA (MINI-SERIES) BY DAMERONOLOGY

↳ 5 chapters, swearing, fluff, angst, mentions of injury.

POE DAMERON'S WIFE (MINI-SERIES) (AO3) BY ZIVABALLERINA

↳ 5 chapters, Poe Dameron x OFC, implied death, fluff, mentions of injury, swearing, fluff again, Poe being fricken adorable with a baby for a second on chapter 3, loss of friends. (There's also a part 2 to this story listed on AO3, however, it hasn't been updated in almost a year.)

⊱{Cassian Andor}⊰

**THE SUN ON BOTH SIDES BY NO-DROIDS

↳ Smut!!, PIV, sex pollen, dub-con, drug use, best friends to lovers, mutual pining, dirty talk, oral sex (male and female receiving).

⊱{King Arthur}⊰

**LITTLE ONE (MINI-SERIES?) PART 1 / PART 2 BY AUTUMNLEAVES1991-BLOG

↳ Smut!!, PIV, really rough sex, restraint, sir/majesty kink (daddy equivalent), language, torture, spanking, nipple clamps, blindfolds, choking, unprotected sex, squirting, gagging, and a bit of fluff, so basically any filthy thing I've ever thought of was in these pieces.

⊱{Max Phillips}⊰

**WITH CHERRIES ON TOP (SERIES) BY ITHINKHESGAYBUTWESAVEDMUFASA

↳ Smut!!, language, adult themes, sexual innuendos, workplace harassment, family issues, angst, hurt/comfort, manipulation. I've already recommended this (when I was on chapter 1) but I have since finished this story and loved it!

**UNHOLY SACRIFICE BY ABSURDTHIRST

↳ Smut!!, PIV, religion kink, virginity kink, religious guilt, severe blasphemy, lewd acts in a church, desecration of holy grounds, oral sex (female receiving), loss of virginity, unprotected sex, blood, blood-drinking, creampie, death, so much filthy shit I don't even think I could explain how hot it was.

yeah I had to use that gif, he looks like a wooly mammoth and I laughed when I saw this scene

⊱{Pero Tovar}⊰

SWEEP ME OFF MY FEET BY BISON-WRITES

↳ Modern!Pero, mentions a car accident, mentions of injury, fluff.

**EL BAŃO BY ABSURDTHIRST

↳ Smut!!, PIV, handjob, derogatory language, loss of virginity, oral sex (female receiving), unprotected sex, creampie.

**AS SWEET AS HONEY, AS TEMPTING AS DEATH BY 221BSHRLOCKED

↳ Smut!!, PIV, angst, blasphemy once again, dub-con, sex pollen, mutual pining, voyeurism to some degree, unprotected sex, hot dirty talk, spanking, hair pulling, oral sex (female and male receiving), creampie, slight choking, fluid exchange, overstimulation, squirting, I come back to this one often.

⊱{Javier Peña}⊰

USED TEA BAGS BY AUTUMNLEAVES1991-BLOG

↳ 18+, language, implied sexual situations.

⊱{Dave York}⊰

BLANK PAGE BY HEATHERBEL

↳ Smut!!, murder, violence, blood, death, reader in danger, slight dub-con, oral sex (both male and female receiving), unprotected sex.

GRAY AREA BY SLATER-BABY

↳ Canon-divergence, sharing clothes, age gap, the realization of feelings, falling in love, getting asked out, fluff, character exploration, mentioned divorce, mentioned former Dave York x Carol York, non-explicit murder/violence/injury.

⊱{Marcus Moreno}⊰

WE ARE FAMILY BY STARRYEYEDSTORIES

↳ Themes of pregnancy, babies, and childbirth (no birth scene).

THE PAST, PRESENT, & FUTURE (MINI-SERIES) PART 1 / PART 2 / **PART 3 BY BISON-WRITES

↳ **for smut!! (I'm doing all these tags on my own so bear with me) Original character, mention of injury, running away from home, friends/coworkers to lovers, mentions of Marcus losing his wife, slight steam in part 1, making out like teenagers hehe, meddling kids, kids forcing the adults into a date, drinking, and more making out in part 2, Miracle Guy interrupting stuff, kids using their powers to manipulate Marcus and OC, angry and yelling at the kids, injury.

Smut tags - oral sex (female receiving), PIV, protected sex

⊱{Marcus Pike}⊰

FAMILY MAN BY STARRYEYEDSTORIES

↳ Headcanon, parenthood, and children.

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foundthe8wing · 4 years ago

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Okay, doing this over here because my main tumblr is usually a place for me to vibe and I don’t want all the bullshit tied to that account, but basically: I’m really angry and disappointed with the dndads cast for how they’ve put a lot of the minors in their fanbase in danger. Everything below is a repost from twitter (with permission from the OP, crypticjoy), and I’ll link the thread in a reblog.

Under a cut because it’s long and potentially triggering (content warnings for grooming, sexualizing minors, and sexual assault)

[OP tagged the relevant cast accounts; I added slashes here bc I’m not sure if those same urls exist on tumblr and I don’t want to be randomly tagging people over here]

5:49 PM Sep 5, 2020

“I don’t usually do this, but: the way that the cast of @/dungeonsanddads engages with their audience is actively dangerous to minors, and they need to get it together. (cw for discussion of grooming, sexualizing minors, sexual assault)

First off, there are some iffy jokes and situations in the podcast itself. I’m not going to get into all of it right here, but have a google doc: [doc will also be linked in reblog]

Yes, the kids in #dndads are fictional, but that doesn’t mean this stuff doesn’t affect real kids listening. a. it normalizes talking/joking about kids in that way and b. There’s a lot of inconsistancy and confusion on the lines they draw--

Paeden saying “baby” is weird but Ron sitting in Terry Jr’s lap isn’t? I’m confused. You know who the fuck relies on that type of confusion and unclarity? Fucking predators

And I’m not saying every in-character decision has to be perfectly moral or acceptable, but the way the cast, out of character, discuss what’s weird and what’s not sends a lot of mixed messages. And that’s legitimately dangerous.

So then you take all of this, and you add a patron discord server that lets nsfw discussions run virtually unchecked--you create a fandom space that allows adults to discuss kinks, and porn searches, and just, all this other stuff, with teenagers...

... and it becomes a breeding ground for grooming and abuse.

The creators aren’t responsible for babysitting their fanbase or for how people engage with their content outside of their spaces (though, again, I’d urge them to be very careful about what kind of messages they’re sending)

But they ARE responsible for taking basic steps to keep the spaces that THEY create and engage with safe.

“But the rules for the server say 18+!” The rules say you have to be 18 *or have parental permission.* They also say to keep things PG-13. That’s vastly different than establishing something as an adult-only/nsfw space.

“Minors shouldn’t be joining/listening anyway!” The cast can’t control who listens and neither can I, but there’s a difference between knowing teens are listening to you discuss sex with your adult friends vs facilitating conversations between teens and adults on those topics.

“If people are uncomfortable they can just leave.” First off, this situation isn’t just uncomfortable, it’s unSAFE. Second: fuck that. It’s not on minors to set and maintain boundaries about this stuff; a lot of them literally do not know how

Not because they’re stupid, but because they’re young and inexperienced. It’s the responsibility of adults to set and enforce healthy boundaries around sexual discussions, and this particular group of adults has done a fucking terrible job

(Maybe don’t encourage listeners to DM you about kinks! Maybe especially don’t do that when you’ve communicated, intentionally or not, that making and escalating sexual jokes is a really good way to get a reaction from you guys)

I get that they didn’t expect to have so many young listeners, but to be aware of that fact and make no adjustments whatsoever is irresponsible and it WILL lead to someone getting hurt. Does their “young, thirsty, female” audience only exist to them when they can laugh about it?

And let’s be absolutely 1000% clear: this isn’t an issue they’re unaware of. The stuff I’m talking about is an ongoing problem with how their server is run, but it came to a head with one specific situation very recently:

They released a bonus, patron-exclusive episode about the dads taking the bdsm test. Given the general state of the server, I was worried about where those discussions might lead, so before it dropped, I reached out to @/anthony_burch to express my concern

He told me he raised the issue with @/fwong and Ashley, meaning at least three members of the dndads team were aware of the situation, and decided it didn’t warrant any type of preemptive action on their part

(alternatively, it means Anthony lied, which would be a whole separate issue)

[Image ID: a discord DM conversation from Sep 1, 2020, between a crossed out username and reverendanthony. It reads:

OP: heyyyyy have you guys considered that releasing an episode focused on the bdsm test is almost inevitably going to lead to a bunch of 15 year olds sharing their results in your server because you might want to get ahead of that before someone gets hurt

reverendanthony: oh holy shit, really good idea

OP: thanks, I know it's easy to veer into that territory just because of the nature of your show but I wanted to bring it to your attention because I figured you don't want to create a situation that's like, actively dangerous (and for the record I'm willing to discuss what I think would make it safer but I'm also not going to assume you want/need my input, obviously you can handle it however you see fit)

reverendanthony: No, thank you for bring it up, I really appreciate it -- I just raised the issue with Freddie and Ashley

OP: Good to know, thank you /End ID]

I’m not overreacting. I have seen this shit happen, to my friends and to myself, and watching the dndads cast take absolutely no meaningful action to prevent situations like that from occurring directly under their noses makes me fucking livid

I can guarantee that the #dungeonsanddaddies fanbase includes both predators and survivors of abuse, grooming, etc (including those currently living through it), and I need them to think very, very hard about which group they’re prioritizing.

And I need that choice to be evident through more than just their words, because it doesn’t fucking matter how much you “really appreciate” that I brought up my concerns if you do fuck-all to address them.

It doesn’t matter how many times you say the word “consent” if apparently everyone was okay that “Darryl gets sexually assaulted” was almost a plot point played for laughs.

(His dare from Scam would have been rape, straight up. Just because no one said the word doesn’t mean it wasn’t coercive and gross).

I’d like to think the @/dungeonsanddads cast isn’t intentionally encouraging abuse, but they’re sure as hell enabling it, and they needed to get their shit together ages ago, because they’re not the ones their negligence hurts.”

Quote retweet by OP 6:51 PM Sep 7, 2020

“So, they updated the rules for the patron server, but I want to be really clear that from my perspective, it’s way too little, way too late.

The new rules don’t adequately address the core issues and they certainly don’t absolve the cast of the harm they’ve already caused.

[Tweet includes 2 screenshots: one of a bot asking people to click thumbs up to confirm they’re 18+ (or have a parent’s permission) and agree to the rules, and one that includes two of the rules. It reads:

“This is an 18+ space. Them’s the rules: per Patreon’s policy, you must be 18+ or have parental permission.

Use language as if you’re at your parents dinner table. Don’t get people in trouble because of your SPICY POSTS. Keep conversation polite. NSFW content is not allowed!”]

(and before anyone says I should bring up my concerns privately, a quick refresher on how well that went last time I did it:)

[links back to the “(alternatively, it means Anthony lied . . .)” tweet from the original thread]

So hey, @/fwong, some thoughts:

1.The rules are vague and unclear: what /exactly/ do you mean when you say “NSFW content is not allowed!” when the content of your show itself is so often nsfw? And how are you planning to enforce this?

Does it mean you’ll shut down the MBIC conversation that is literally just kink discussion? I need you to be clear on where the line is, because, again, predators rely on that confusion. Don’t give them a gray area to play in.

For an example of a more clear policy, it’s pretty easy to say, “yep, ‘Henry gets pegged’ sure is a sentence we said on our show and you don’t have to pretend it’s not, but if you’d like to discuss it in any more detail at all, you need to move”

2. Remember how I said I needed to be clear on whether you’re prioritizing survivors or predators? While I doubt it was intentional, the language you’re using here is prioritizing predators.

It’s not “don’t get people in trouble,” it’s “don’t make people uncomfortable.” It’s “we all have a responsibility to make sure this space is safe for everyone, especially the younger members of the community.”

You’re setting people up to be afraid of expressing concerns for fear of “getting people in trouble” or “inciting unnecessary drama.” Even if it’s not what YOU meant, it’s very easy for those words to be manipulated, so +

You absolutely have to be explicitly clear that if someone expresses their discomfort, you’ve got their back. Being safe is more important than being polite.

3. I need every cast member to take responsibility for their own actions. I’ve gotten no indication from any of you that you understand the ways in which the in-show things I brought up were harmful.

Acknowledging that harm is important not just because of the immediate effects of that content, but also because it implicitly sets an example for how similar complaints should be dealt with going forward.

When someone says “hey, I was uncomfortable that you seem fine with the Glennary ship, because she reads as very young to me,” I don’t need a dissertation on how the perception of characters can evolve due to your improvisational nature

I need to hear “oh, I interpreted her differently, but you’re right, we should have been more clear, and I’m sorry for making you uncomfortable.” Because your responses to your own mistakes set the tone for any other situations like that going forward.

How comfortable is someone going to be with coming to you, or Ash, or any of the mods about someone making them uncomfortable if they’ve seen that when people call YOU out, they’re argued with and shut down?

Don’t tell people you’ve “made it clear that you won’t go there” when they tell you that you ARE there. Listen to them and do better.

Set the expectation that people will be respected when they raise their concerns. “If you want to come at me you have to bring the heat” is not an appropriate response on a subject that made people genuinely uncomfortable.

In essence: set people up to be supported and protected, not dismissed.

[It’s like a matriosche of tweets over here. This one links to another thread, also by crypticjoy. That thread reads:

A non-comprehensive guide to keeping discord servers safe for minors:

1. Make designated channels for nsfw/18+ discussion. Generally speaking, this is a lot more effective than banning those discussions altogether, because it’s a lot easier to say “hey, can you move this conversation?” than “hey, I need you to stop”

In fandom spaces, it’s usually a good idea to have separate channels for talking about nsfw fiction vs discussing your personal sex lives.

2. Give everyone minor/adult roles; make sure your 18+ channels are locked to people who don’t have an adult role. It’s important that there’s more of a barrier there than just checking a box.

3. NSFW channels shouldn’t necessarily be a free-for-all; be aware of people’s boundaries and respect them (for example, r*pe jokes aren’t funny or okay, even if you’re not making them around kids)

4. Explicitly state in your rules that people should feel free to come to mods if anyone is making them uncomfortable. Actually listen to people and resolve the situation if they do approach you.

5. Make it clear that creepy behavior via DMs or other means is also not tolerated--you can’t control what people do outside your server, but you can make the choice to not allow people like that in your space

6. Make sure mods are on top of things BEFORE people have to say anything; sometimes being a mod means being willing to be the “asshole” who shuts things down before they get out of hand, even if they’re not asked.

Be generally aware of signals that people are uncomfortable or that things are escalating too far, and address those situations sooner rather than later.

*It should be noted that safety involves a lot of components beyond just containing nsfw discussions; this thread just happens to be focused on that one specific element.

oh also! It's a good idea to provide resources on grooming so people know what to look out for [links to some resources; again, this’ll be in the reblog]]

So, @/dungeonsanddads, if you’re interested in anything beyond just having a flimsy excuse you can point to to cover your own ass, I’m gonna need you to try again.

Sorry I can’t be nicer about it, but I’ve given so many benefits of the doubt I could be running a successful charity, and this isn’t an issue I’m willing to drop.

10:02 PM

Thought I was done but actually I've got a few more questions: to what extent were @/HeyBethMay, @/WillBCampos, and @/mattLarnold included in conversations about this issue/the new rules? Is this something your whole team is involved in?

Have you discussed what you're doing on a team and individual basis to keep your fan interactions safe, and are you on the same page about how much it matters? Are you holding each other accountable? Is everyone okay with where this ended up?”

#dungeons and daddies #dndads #cw grooming #cw SA #8wing

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