#with regards to having conflicting feelings about Bruce in this arc

[betterthanbatman1]

There’s something so beautiful yet so chilling about this.

We’re so used to seeing Bruce lash out at Jason. It’s always the same thing between the two:

Bruce goes to stop Jason.

Jason throws a punch saying “he deserved to die”.

Bruce retaliates and beats Jason up saying “you don’t get to decide that. You’re no better than the criminals. Get out of my city.”

Jason says something along the lines of “This isn’t only your city. You had Alfred and money to support you growing up but some people (me) had nothing”

Jason ends up leaving feeling like a worthless piece of shit & continues to hate Batman (& associates), as Bruce continues his mission.

What we never get is them talking to each other. Yes they exchange words, but they never talk. It’s always punch first, talk later. (Rhato #25 my beloathed)

In this panel, Bruce kneels down to be eye to eye with Jason (so much different than when he normally talks down to him). He removes his mask to show Jason that this is Bruce and what he’s doing is focusing on Jason and not on the mission.

He explains what he’s doing and reassures Jason of that: “This isn’t punishment, Jason. I love you”.

Now on the other hand, this is really fucked up. Because Jason is so used to hearing about how he’s screwed up big time and how he’s gone off the rails. What he doesn’t expect is for Bruce to say ‘I love you’ twice, whilst Jason is so vulnerable.

Bruce could beat Jason up and he could send him to Arkham or Blackgate. But he chooses to give Jason a new life in a different city where he won’t have to face the harsh consequences of his actions. What Bruce is showing here is love. At least that’s how Jason should see it. Because his dad isn’t fighting him and isn’t locking him up for murdering people. “I love you Jason but you’re a murderer”.

Now obviously Bruce is not a loving father here since he literally poisoned his son. I just thought it was really interesting to see the juxtaposition between ‘Bruce acting/speaking so kind and endearingly to his clearly struggling son’, with the ‘harshness of his actions towards his son (drugging Jason with fear toxin)’. As well as comparing that to the Bruce we’re so used to seeing face off with Jason.

You see this panel and you feel for both of them. It looks heartwarming to see the way Bruce is talking to Jason. But then when you know what Bruce has done, you feel anger, hate, or simply just knowing this is wrong. There’s so much manipulation from Bruce, that this whole story arc just leaves you feeling conflicted.

I just think that this was quite well done from both the writing and the artwork

[wintersettled]

Ongoing Batfam recs

disclaimer! this is being written primarily off the top of my head so don't expect insane quality! also I'm aware a lot of people aren't sure where to start or what's current -- for that I recommend looking through reading guides but I thought I'd talk a bit about current ongoing batfam comics I'm aware of. To read these you could go to your local comic store, use the DC Infinite app or do what I often do and use alternative sites to read comics, many of which can be found by searching "where to read comics free reddit" via your internet browser.

not all batfam characters are currently appearing very much in comics so I'm afraid there will be a distinct lack of many favourites such as Tim Drake, Helena Bertinelli, Stephanie Brown, Jason Todd, and Jean-Paul Valley, however it should be noted that in Batman: The Brave and the Bold there is always a chance that an issue will feature one of them. This series features 60 pages containing multiple short stories which vary in length, some occurring across multiple issues. While it is labeled "batman" it regularly features characters outside of the batfamily.

I'd also like to not that due to DC's All-In there are many new authors and storylines starting up so most are barely any issues in! These are really just early on thoughts BUT it's a great time to start reading!

Regarding Bruce Wayne himself, Batman is currently (as usual) appearing in two new all-in arcs in both Detective Comics and Batman (2016). Can I say I like either? No! It is a long established fact that I am most definitely not Taylor's biggest fan and him deciding to rehash already done and in fact tired storylines as well as making minor adjustments to origins is no surprise nor do I care -- still I'll be fair and tell you that the story involves, you guessed it, the no-killing rule woah! Something so deftly written you can spot the killer from the first couple pages except this time the issue ends off with perhaps one of the most ridiculous and bad plot twists I've ever seen... enough hating on that. Now with the Batman series itself, I fear I dropped it ages ago. I'm understanding there's some conflict regarding the return of previous characters but following Gotham War I struggle to car about this run and I'll admit so far what I've heard from those who have read the recent series is mediocre at best.. still I recommend checking it out for yourself seeing as I can't actually speak on it.

Nightwing aka Richard Grayson is having a seemingly better time. With the introduction of Dan Watters as the new writer we're getting a new Nightwing (2016) story that I am feeling really positive about! I fully recommend checking this one out, just going off the first issue it looks good and I have spent the last month yearning for more! Titans (2023), however, I'm a bit more sceptical of... I'm liking the change in dynamics (always love a Roy feature and Donna leading) which see different characters taking the forefront of the team. I'm not a big fan of Beast Boy nor his dynamic with Raven so it may not be the best but I think the Titans are a super important part of Dick's story so I'll say if you're not keen on this, maybe run it back and pick up The New Teen Titans (1980) which is the start of the team and even sees Dick become Nightwing!

A new writer has finally joined up on Catwoman (2018) and let me say that I loved that first issue. Someone is trying to kill Catwoman and all of her previous identities. We hearken back to her international thievery and what a huge scale Selina Kyle was once on! I'm very excited to see her travel as the story progresses!

Damian Wayne continues as a main character on Batman & Robin (2023) which I am not caught up to so I can't comment on the story but at least in the past it's had its moments! I can't say I've always been totally into the portrayal of Talia however this series has in the past emphasized Damian's relationships with his father as well has others like Nika aka Flatline!

Both Barbara Gordon and Cassandra Cain have been appearing in Birds of Prey (2023)! I enjoy the series but I will admit I feel like it's still finding its footing and I loath the occasional portrayal of Barbara as Batgirl -- something I feel is actively harming the quality of the story. Most of the time she is portrayed as Oracle, and while her wheelchair has yet to make a comeback, I'm hoping somebody explodes the dark spirit of Dan Didio from that office so ableism and misogyny can finally die a cold and lonely death in their buildings janitorial closet. Anyways! Cass has also been appearing in her new solo Batgirl (2024)!! This is so exciting! If you don't know Batgirl (2000) is possibly one of the best things ever written in history and every one should read it so I'm so excited to see her back! This first arc seems to focus a lot on the dynamic with Lady Shiva, Batgirl's mother. While the first issue was more set up for the rest, I cannot wait!

outside of elseworlds I'd say that about wraps things up for current batfam! pick one up, I'd love to chat about it!

[murmeloni]

Thinking about an AU of your Jason and Bruce (maybe even from the 5 times verse) where Jason gets shot in the head ala dicks ric arc, and just straight up does NOT remember being in a relationship with Bruce or anything post his moms OD. The sweet amnesiac angst of him discovering all these scars esp the autopsy scars and Bruce coming face to face with the Horrors~ afresh. Especially the batarang scar. Your penchant for writing internal conflict and high stakes emotion would make me RABID

Oh that idea is going straight into the wip folder!!!! I absolutely LOVE that!!!!

Just imagine the despair Jason feels when he tries to piece together what his life was like since he was 12 and coming to all the wrong conclusions (at least in some regards). Like, that while he was taken in by a rich guy who apparently loved him, that love wasn't enough. In fact it might have been precisely that love that ultimately and irreversibly tied his life to violence and death and blood. That he hasn't been able to escape any of it, that it's etched into his very bones. Even his love has teeth now. He knows because of the way Bruce acts around him.

Because of course Bruce, after witnessing Jason's first reaction to seeing himself, seeing his body, the scars etc. (and maybe even witnessing the shot to the head that started it all) is going through it. He's walking on egg-shells around Jason, shutting him out like only Bruce Wayne can and Jason, who doesn't know Bruce like he did before, thinks it's due to him being a horrible person. Maybe he's become like his father. Maybe he's been abusive and violent? He asks about his own scars and where they come from, he asks about Bruce's, of course he does, but no one will tell him, they won't even meet his eyes. He must be a fucking monster for them to do that, to be so scared of him (he doesn't know it's shame that keeps them silent). So he tries hard to gentle himself, to be soft, but it only seems to make things even worse. He is a stranger in his own skin, in his own home and he doesn't know what to do. He feels isolated.

Just Jason and Bruce in their own ways coming to terms with the heartbreaking realization that none of the hopes they'd harbored for their future, for Jason's future in particular, came to bear. The boy didn't even get to go to college, for fucks sake, which was his biggest dream growing up.

Just *chef's kiss*! You are a genius, anon. The mental anguish is delicious and I am kissing you on the mouth (if you're comfortable with that. Otherwise I'm high-fiving you so hard)

Also, you might be pleased to hear that the drugged Bruce fic is coming very soon 👀 I couldn't resist. It sits at 4k words now and it's probably getting at least 2k more. Not sure how long exactly it'll be and how long it'll take to finish but I'm certain I can upload it this month ❤️ loads of angst and pining and just typical Brujay emotions.

Thank you so much for this pre-birthday (it's tomorrow) surprise! I absolutely love your asks!

[boyfridged]

the brilliance of jay's progression in countdown is that it gives you a promise of positive character development, and then it breaks it. and it does so intentionally, in the most diverting way, to emphasize jason's inability to escape the cycle.

or, another post breaking down the series, where i repeat myself a lot but also make a clearer argument.

there are three notable events that happen at the beginning: the subtle showcase of jay's internal conflict considering his approach toward killing (the very first encounter with duela and the monitor), jay reaching out to donna in crisis ("i guess I just wanted to be around someone else who might know how it feels…"), and finally – his helmet shattering. these scenes tell you: jason's direction as a character is changing, and it seems, for the better. he's about to abandon his trauma-based (no matter how ironic, it does remain tied to his trauma) identity, he is connecting with people, and he seems to be on a brink of understanding that his moral standing does not provide easy answers or solutions either.

and for the most part of the series, we see that narrative unfolding (even if a bit non-linear, still innocently convincing way). it is, in many ways, supported by bringing up features of his characterisation from the 80s. jason remains, of course, still unpleasant in ways typical for this era of writing, and is conflicted and disagreeable, which makes sense for his utrh/post-utrh personality. however, there are also details that bring us back to his original robin run and his cameos on ntt – we see him being responsible (e.g. #43 – suggesting to bring in other superheroes in crisis, even though he clearly is not keen on the idea of working with them), determined (#16: “isn’t that your super-power, stupid boy? too stupid to ever give up?” “maybe it is”), sensitive (half of the whole storyline, really), caring for gotham (gotham by gaslight) and people-oriented (as early as #51).

the issue that particularly signals that jason is an inherently good person and externalizes his internal conflicts regarding classic heroic vigilantism vs his cynical approach is #30, where we meet batman of earth-15 –  alt jason, whom our jason attempts to punch in the face.

and on topic of batman – jason is always gravitating towards batman. in gotham by gaslight jay looks delighted to see (the foreign) bruce and suggests checking with the local bat. then, earth-51 arc arrives.

earth-51 arc (#16 - #13) is a culmination of a promise of catharsis for jason. we have already seen him as batman, as a confirmation that a different life for him is possible. and here he has a chance to come to terms with his past and overcome it. he meets a version of bruce who has done exactly what he wanted him to do in utrh: killed the joker and the rest of the rogue gallery. what is most important – he is disappointed with this version of his father. we realise that jason, deep down, has an intimate and intuitive understanding of what batman stands for; and that he shares most of his values. this is a truth that you can't ignore especially since jay is the one to inspire this hollow, cynical version of batman to go out and fight in a seemingly lost battle.

and then batman dies. right in front of him.

this is a central moment of the narrative, for many reasons, most strikingly:

the symmetry:, a premise known from the lost days, becomes literal. this "the father had lost a son, and now the son had lost the father" is a cruel parallel to a death in the family and bruce's grief. jason's death created a gap between them that jay has been desperately trying to close, with no avail – because in bruce's mind, jason remains dead. now that jason is grieving bruce, the connection closes on both sides, and there's no way for either of them to reconcile the mourning with the reality of the other being truly alive. in this sense, the arc solidifies that jason can never come home.

no good deed goes unpunished. as i have mentioned before, so far jason is established as someone good at heart, but confused; and the reader intuitively assumes that his better, honest side will win. yet, the moment jason gives in to hope, it victimises and retraumatizes him. this event, again, brings to mind his own death, when he tried his best to save sheila and ended up paying the highest price for it. so, narrative-wise, jason is always punished for his kindness.

perhaps because of the nonchalant act that jason pulls off, many readers seem to miss that everything that happens after that arc is an upshot that follows logically from it.

jason's immediate determination to leave – and later a short period of indecision that ends up with his dramatic exit, pushing his team away, makes perfect sense when you consider what intense trauma he has just gone through. admittedly, i'm not a fan of the notion that he would give up at all (i think he's always ready to give up on himself, but not on the world), but then on the other hand, if there's anything that would cause it, narrative-wise, witnessing batman dying does sound like a good incentive for that. (it also has to be pointed out that jason seems to be confident that the rest of the team can go into the final battle without him anyway; it's not like he would go back to his earth not even knowing if said earth will exist tomorrow).

it's crucial to notice that following that crisis of faith (faith in fighting for the world) is followed by him raising up for the challenge again, but now... worse and even more confused. in the final confrontation with donna, jason antagonizes the superhero community, and when we see him at the end of the series (#1) his monologue indicates that he believes the capes to be naive. (significantly, he also focuses on bruce and offends the memory of 51 earth-bruce by calling him crazy; an action that can be seen as suppression of his own guilt and invoking, once again, a cruel symmetry considering bruce's engagement in victim-blaming after jason's death). this, once again, is consistent with the "no good deed" reading – jason diminishes superhero values because he has been continuously punished for living by them. (and unlike other superheroes, he doesn't have a support system nor skills in compartmentalization that would help him deal with this trauma) every leap of hope re-traumatised him. hence, it seems to be no surprise that jason decides to abandon the mask, and in the closing scene we see him without it. the promise of the shattered helmet is pushed to an extreme – jason does not get a new alt identity. he denounces the idea of superheroism completely.

and yet, what is ultimately subversive about the ending, is that jay is not truly a civilian and he does not abandon vigilante ways. he does the same thing. we see him without a mask, but he is clearly working a case. he might have rejected the symbolic dimension of the vigilante work, but he still carries the same delusional hope for bettering the world and protecting people that the superhero community does. only now, he is even more isolated and doesn't have any identity to go by (as he is still legally dead).

as such, the ending opens a new question regarding jason's understanding of himself and vigilantism, or rather the lack thereof. is it possible that vigilantism is really at the core of jay's trauma? and why, potentially, is it something that is so destructive for him as a character specifically? (and i have some answers for that, but i'm not going to get into it here, as it's already a very long post)

so, tldr; the genius of countdown is that it establishes jay as sensitive, determined, and fundamentally good (this is what the purpose of seeing him as batman is!), and then it brutally reminds the reader that jason’s tragedy is that on this specific earth, in this specific timeline, his love doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. the story goes on as it did; one way or another, jay is trapped in the cycle of his care ironically creating rifts between him and the others, and bringing him to his own downfall.

[distort-opia]

You're braver than me for mentioning Khoa and Joker parallel in this hellsite that very much hate Joker lol. Im holding myself back from pointing out the same thing everytime i read Khoa story in fear someone gonna attack me. But anyway what do you think are the differences between their relationship (ghostbat & batjokes) since they're quite similar with each other. Cause tbh with you the way many describe ghostbat here feel just like they're describing batjokes instead

Ngl, this is one of the things that both depresses me and pisses me off about the current state of fandom. It sucks to hear you're too afraid of getting attacked over expressing a personal opinion on a literal blogging platform, built for this express purpose... regarding fictional characters and within a fandom, which is supposed to be fun. The block button and the filtering options exist for a reason though; I tag my stuff accurately so that people can blacklist, and I don't mind if people block me (I'm quite liberal with it myself). It's just part of curating your little niche, so I definitely encourage doing the same, Anon. Besides, despite the hellsite having its downsides, I've interacted with very reasonable and fun people as well, who dislike Joker or Batjokes but are fully capable of treating others with maturity and respect.

That being said, I agree that Batjokes and Ghostbat share a lot of similarities. I guess that for some it affords the fascinations of this type of dynamic for Bruce without the baggage Joker's character would unavoidably bring (both within Universe, and within fandom). However, there's definitely some essential differences between Ghostbat and Batjokes. Perhaps the most important consequence of them is that unlike Batjokes, Ghostbat has significantly higher chances of not ending in tragedy.

The thing about Joker is that, despite how seemingly desperate for attention and in love with Batman he canonically is, he also... hates Bruce's guts. And I'm making the distinction between 'Batman' and 'Bruce' because Joker himself makes it. Joker needs Batman on a fundamental level. He perceives his own current identity as having been shaped and defined by Batman, and he sees Bruce, the person underneath the mask, as the source of potential weakness and a threat to the Bat's existence. That's because Joker thinks of his own humanity as useless and weak, having decided to discard it and stomp it out. He then proceeds to try and do the same with Bruce's. This has literally been their main conflict since Death of the Family onwards.

Khoa also takes issue with Bruce being driven by emotion. He also considers it a weakness-- Bruce's need to save people, his vigilantism having revenge at its roots instead of a desire to perfect an art. However, Ghostmaker wasn't a direct result of Bruce's actions (accidental or not), like Joker is. Khoa's identity is much more stable and independent, not irrevocably intertwined with Bruce's Batman to the pathological degree Joker's is; and as a result, he's less extreme about it. Khoa can allow for disagreement without resorting to destroying Bruce's life, whereas Joker (at least of now) cannot allow any compromises, any pause from conflict-- because he needs it. Khoa, however, is able to stop and make peace. He challenges Bruce and his need for control just enough, right up to the point of fully enabling Bruce's darkness and self-destructiveness. Joker never stops. He keeps escalating the trauma, the horrors; a pit of knives Bruce keeps throwing himself into.

In a way, shipping Ghostbat is indulging in a dynamic similar to Batjokes, but one that can have a happier ending. Bruce can be a person with Khoa, whereas Joker would tear vulnerability to shreds. The parallels between Joker War and Ghostmaker's introduction arc are so interesting to me also because they showcase this from the start. The final confrontation with Joker, in Batman (2016) #100, has Joker stab Bruce in the back and then almost cut his face off, talking about how he'd then have "to start from scratch." Joker is tearing everything down to have Bruce rebuild it-- alone. The final confrontation with Khoa also includes him telling Bruce he's not enough, he's weak, he needs to become stronger; it also includes being stabbed in the back, but while in a fair fight that has rules. And then Bruce wakes up to Khoa sowing up the wounds he himself inflicted.

That's the crucial difference between the ships, I would say. Despite their disagreements, Bruce and Khoa are on the same side, and Bruce can expect to survive showing weakness to Khoa. Joker is, paradoxically, on the side of Batman alone and also against Bruce. That's not to say it couldn't be different, and that a happier ending is impossible to imagine for them too-- but it's a lot more complicated. Personally, I enjoy Batjokes so much because of how difficult a relationship would be. It inevitably has to involve Joker allowing himself to be human (since otherwise he would not allow Batman to be) and that's such a heavy and complex deconstruction of trauma that's fascinating to delve into.

Hope this was interesting to read through! There's a lot more stuff to say about the differences between Khoa and Joker as characters and their brand of psychopathy, and how that impacts the dynamic with Bruce, but I'm waiting for Batman Inc. and their interaction there to see where DC takes it. (Please let it be good.)

[tobiasdrake]

The final act of this movie is so dark. Darker than the movie thinks it is, and the movie already thinks it's pretty dark.

Again. Confronting Tony's imperialism and reckless disregard for the opinions and sometimes wellbeing of others is what this movie was trying to talk about. In a well-written film, lessons would be learned and characters would grow and change their behavior, and this change in behavior would then be used to challenge and overcome the villain.

What happens in this final act? Tony Stark's rogue super-weapon destroys Sokovia. Effectively, the ending to this film is that Tony's bomb in the Maximoff bedroom ultimately does detonate, and we're just supposed to be happy that it only took out the city block.

The film got lost in trying to be epic and clever, shooting for global stakes instead of personal ones while abruptly unwriting the conflicts surrounding Tony specifically. And the result? The Avengers save a lot of individual lives and the planet isn't destroyed. But Tony's reckless super-weapon nonetheless unmakes a sovereign nation. And we're supposed to feel triumphant about it when Tony vaporizes half of the city to save the world.

Remember when the civilians were throwing bottles at the Iron Legion? Yeah. The deepest this commentary winds up going with its final message is, "Those people shouldn't have done that. The Iron Legion are the good guys. They're here to defeat the terrorists and keep us all safe."

The Sokovia battle lives down to the imperialist themes that the movie was originally trying to challenge.

And nowhere is that more poignant than in Bruce's final betrayal. Through this film, Bruce has been wrestling with being treated as a weapon. The Avengers used him in the first act. Wanda used him in the second act. And now, in the third act? Natasha betrays him and weaponizes him against his will.

Bruce's arc concludes with his fears validated. The idea that the Avengers are no better than Ross with regards to the Hulk? Proven true.

Tony Stark annihilates Sokovia and Natasha proves that Bruce was wrong to have ever trusted the Avengers. What a shitty way to end this story.

[ufonaut]

JSA 2022 #1 THOUGHTS

KYLE KNIGHT. K Y L E KNIGHT. KYLE KNIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!

i literally can’t even tell you how much i love the villain legacies i love all out violence and i love the youngsters (sorry craddock) carrying on the original jsa’s legacy of being trained conflict escalators with each other

i adore selina being her usual complete hypocrite self and claiming that bruce giving her a second chance is completely different from helena giving this generation’s jsa members a second chance. something i’ve actually really enjoyed about modern portrayals of helena wayne (in batman/catwoman 2020 too) is that it seems to be sort of universally understood that helena is her father’s daughter more than anything else and she’ll always be at odds with selina, it’s interesting given that in the original incarnation of helena it’s precisely her mother’s death that gets her to put on the cape & cowl in the first place whereas modern takes always have bruce dying first. i’m all for it, it’s compelling and geoff blends nicely the asc 1976 canon (regarding the why & how of bruce’s death) with what little of helena wayne we know in the present day!

alan featuring in the flashbacks more than any other jsa member is, of course, catering to me specifically thank you geoff thank you for calling alan the main character of the universe in one of your recent interviews

per degaton is expected but used in new and exciting ways, he’s really shaping up to be the jsa’s best longtime adversary and i spy a lot of roy thomas era all-star squadron inspo going into his portrayal

alan looking younger than everybody else in the 18 years from now panel. younger than even dick grayson. is literally killing me i’m in genuine hysterics. the starheart working overtime

VLADIMIR & RUBY SOKOV FOR MOST CHARACTERS OF ALL TIME JUST GENERALLY IMMEDIATELY ON SIGHT NON NEGOTIABLE

vlad taught his daughter love and violence and nothing else. more than alan ever did. i look forward to the vlad/alan content me and the boys on /co/ have been predicting

mikel janin’s art is wonderful and wonderfully expressive, jerry ordway as a guest artist means the world to me (i’d argue his is the definitive jsa). we’ve got it all

THE FLASHPOINT BEYOND/WATCHMEN SNOWGLOBE AS THE CATALYST FOR HELENA’S TIME TRAVEL ADVENTURE SCREAMING AND CHEERING

JOHNNY THUNDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i’m buying three different variants of this issue and they’re all worth it because i’ve never read anything so beautiful in my entire life and the next issue taking place in the 1940s is once again meant for a target audience of me. god bless

wait i’m still going insane over KYLE THEO TEDDY KNIGHT. the fact that he inherits everything from his mother’s side is making me insane in the brain i can’t even imagine what jack must be feeling good god this is the book. THE book.

i fully believe that by the end of the series/first arc this new gen of jsaers will be saved

it does everything, and i mean everything, a first issue is supposed to do. i’m not even kidding this is flawless impeccable writing to me

IN CONCLUSION: EATING IT WITH A FORK AND KNIFE

[cephalog0d]

For the WIP Ask Game: Can I get some tasty details about the Ghost Steph AU, pretty please?

YES ABSOLUTELY this AU low-key consumes my brain in the background all the time. I've rambled about it a little and written a quick drabble for it, but the bulk of it has to wait until I have a chance to do the HEFTY amount of note-taking required for an Extremely Canon Compliant (to a point) fic.

Really this is motivated by my eternal frustration at how much DC dropped the ball with regard to the fact Steph's death occurred DIRECTLY before Jason's whole big comeback rampage. And like. You'd think there might be some things to connect there, with yet another kid getting killed working with Batman, and the overall non-reaction to it, and how much of Jason's whole shtick is being pissed that he got killed and nobody cared. There was a whole-ass news broadcast directly outing her as Spoiler AND Robin and connecting her to Batman! This was not exactly a secret! On top of which the whole War Games thing ties pretty directly into Under the Hood with Black Mask and all that. AND YET. For some mysterious reason that definitely doesn't rhyme with Man Midio it's just totally unaddressed.

Anyway, the general idea is that Steph did actually die during War Games and is stuck in Gotham as a ghost. Nobody else can see/hear her, which sucks, until she happens to run into Jason. Due to metaphysical handwaving (they were both Robin, Jason's been dead and has weird paranormal energy, etc.), he CAN see and hear her, which is great for her and rather unfortunate for him because BOY does she have some opinions on her death, and Bruce, and Tim, and Jason, and his whole plan. And he's going to hear all about it because there's literally nothing he can do to stop her.

And I have a lot of feelings about all the potential interactions there. So many conflicting emotions, and they're sort of stuck together, because even if Steph would rather hang out with other people he's the only one who can see or hear her, and that's better than not being seen or heard at all, and Jason can't just shoot her or lock her out because. Ghost.

(He definitely tries to exorcise her several times. It doesn't take. Steph mocks him endlessly about it.)

So yeah, ONE DAY I'm going to write this, it just requires me to go back and reread a bunch of stuff leading up to War Games and UTH, and those arcs themselves, and take extensive notes to make sure I've got all the canon details right. I'm determined to make it happen, though.

[fantastic-nonsense]

Okay, apparently this response got bumped somewhere and it's in my notifications again, so I took a second look at it. I have thoughts. Namely: you come from an understandable place. But it's one that is not reflective of comics canon because you're letting your bias for Damian and against Tim get in the way of an accurate reading of both characters.

First, let me just get this out of the way: you reblogged this post from me while I was in the process of editing it to be more reflective, and thus missed my edited intro, which read "Is the Tim-Damian conflict in WFA the same as it is in canon? No. Does it have a solid, factual basis in Tim and Damian’s canon issues? Yes."

This post was originally intended as a reflection on Tim and Damian's canonical relationship in the post-Crisis universe and how WFA was picking up a valid interpersonal conflict to examine, not an examination of whether WFA accurately portrayed the exact nature of their conflict as it occurred in canon. Which, by its very nature as a slice-of-life all-ages Elseworlds comic that's working with a "softer" canon, is impossible to do. It doesn't exactly reflect Tim or Damian's own canon issues, just like WFA doesn't exactly reflect any of the other Batfam members' issues; instead, the creative team took Tim and Damian's contentious post-Crisis canon relationship and worked it into WFA in a way that made sense for the comic.

Putting the rest of this response behind a cut because I wanted to respond fully to your comments, which ended up being pretty long due to the inclusion of quite a bit of analysis and several panels:

Regarding your comments about Damian not being jealous: they're objectively wrong. Prior to and during the Reborn era, Damian views Tim as a direct threat to his place in the family and for Bruce’s attention in a specific, pointed, and explicit way that he does not view anyone else (for example, Dick). It’s usually not explicitly spelled out outside of #657, but it’s still extremely clear that he feels that way into the Reborn era:

"Now that I'm here, he doesn't need a surrogate son." -Batman #657 (Batman and Son)

"Why are you acting like such a little jerk?" "Because you don't deserve any of this. You're adopted! But when you're gone, I'll take my rightful place at my father's side...as Batman's son!" -Batman #657 (Batman and Son)

"You're just trying to keep him all to yourself! Can't stand the fact that he's my father! Something you don't have!" -Robin #168 (Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul Part 1)

"I know he thinks it's so great for me being his real son...but sometimes I wonder if Batman gives a damn about me...and that kinda hurts, you know?" -Robin #168

"You think Batman will leave all this to a hanger-on like you...instead of his own flesh and blood?! A little orphan boy looking for a substitute dad. Pa-thetic." "He doesn't want to know you!" -Robin #168

[Dick notices Damian wearing a Robin tunic, which he's been wearing since the arc's prologue when he first declared to Ra's that Bruce "gave them" to him...which he didn't] Notice Damian's costume. Note to self: smack a clue into this kid. -Nightwing #138 (Resurrection Part 2)

[Damian recieves what he thinks is Bruce's approval and happily goes off to fight his Ra's' ninjas over Talia's protests, because he's happy to get Bruce's acceptance and approval as his son] -Detective Comics #839 (Resurrection Part 7)

"Don't be so sensitive, Drake." "Damian, shut up. Now." "Sorry, Drake. You're still part of the team–maybe the Batgirl costume is available." [Tim punches Damian] "My name is Tim Wayne!" -Red Robin #1 (2009)

It is astoundingly and explicitly clear that Damian is jealous of Tim and thinks he doesn’t deserve to be part of the family and that this jealousy is specifically due to Tim being adopted and a threat to what Damian views as his “rightful inheritance.” His initial desire to be Robin is only important to him insofar as it signifies that Bruce has accepted him as his son and heir over Tim, because what he really wants is the inheritance of being Batman’s son. Which Tim has and he seemingly doesn't. His rivalry with Tim is explicitly rooted in this struggle. The dinosaur incident is just the most ruthless way he tried to secure his status as Bruce’s son, because, as you note, it’s how he was taught to deal with rivals by the League.

But he IS jealous of Tim; it’s a canonical fact. He wouldn’t treat Tim the way he does and say the things he does to Tim if he wasn’t. I'm not "centering Tim in what's going on with Damian" any more than the comics themselves do. He doesn't treat Dick or Cass the way he treats Tim; his barbs towards them are significantly less personal and he never tries to explictly deny them the right to exist as his father's heirs the way he does Tim. So I can't agree with your comments about Tim's jealousy being "more apparent" than Damian's, because it's pretty obvious via canon that they're both jealous of each other. Basically the only exception you can pull out is maybe Battle for the Cowl, which is largely a complete wash analysis-wise because everyone's ridiculously OOC in that book.

Nor can I agree with your assertion that Damian doesn't have an issue with Tim specifically, though Damian's specific issues with Tim are really less about Tim and more about what Tim represents. Tim’s relationship with Bruce when Damian is introduced is objectively good. While Tim may be insecure about his place, he knows that Bruce loves him and it’s pretty clear to everyone else around them that Bruce loves Tim and is genuinely attempting to be a good father to him. Additionally, before Bruce’s death, Tim’s place as Robin is secure. Bruce has zero intention of letting Damian be Robin and everyone knows it. It takes Damian no time to pick up on this, and despite knowing it he deliberately chooses to inflame those tensions anyway (see: wearing the Robin tunic and making various comments to and about Tim in Resurrection).

Bruce, of course, doesn't choose either one over the other when offered the choice during Resurrection and never really appears to consider that as an option in the first place (which, good). But it IS an explicit issue that both Tim and Damian are dealing with throughout that arc: they both view the other as a direct rival for Bruce’s affections and their place within his household and are hostile to each other because of it.

Throughout his early appearances and into the Reborn era, Damian repeatedly and consistently goes after Tim’s status as Bruce’s adopted son because he’s jealous that Tim visibly has Bruce’s love whereas he had Bruce’s grudging acceptance at best. It’s baked into how Damian talks to and about Tim, how he talks about his own relationship with Bruce throughout the Reborn era to Dick, and things like his worry over whether his father would allow him to remain Robin if he returned. Damian wanted a place in his father’s legacy and was jealous of Tim because Tim already explicitly had it; he was Robin, he was a Wayne, and (later on) Bruce defaulted the position of WE majority shareholder to him. Tim has what Damian wants: Bruce’s love, trust, respect, and pride.

That's the core of Damian's beef with him specifically, and it is a specific beef he has with Tim that he doesn't appear to have with anyone else (despite all those things also being applicable to Dick). WFA chose to slightly change that to Damian feeling insecure in the face of Tim's legacy rather than Tim's secure place in the family due to the "softer world" nature of the comic, but it's not a large enough drift from comics canon to justify your anger, especially considering how other all-ages comics like Tiny Titans and Li'l Gotham have adapted canon interpersonal dynamics to fit their needs.

As for the rest of your notes, I largely agree that otherwise, Tim and Damian's issues were largely a complicated case of getting off on the wrong foot. Their personal relationship is largely founded on two incidents that give the other a terrible understanding and deep mistrust of each other: the Spook beheading/dinosaur incident in Batman and Son (on Tim’s end) and the confrontation in the Batcave and Wayne Manor at the beginning of Resurrection of Ra’s al Ghul (on Damian’s end).

Tim fundamentally does not trust Damian due to the dinosaur incident. His previous experience with him in Batman and Son leaves him incapable of believing that Damian is telling the truth and really does need Bruce’s help. Tim is wrong, and stubborn, and frankly rather cruel during this encounter, but his disbelief that Damian needs help is directly based on the time Tim previously spent with him. It is a massive and misguided miscommunication incident that then feeds the resentment and dislike on both sides of the conflict.

We do both seem to agree that at the end of the day, Tim and Damian’s conflict isn’t really personal: while there are certain individual incidents where it became personal (their confrontation in Wayne Manor at the beginning of Resurrection and the Hit List cut line fight, for example), ultimately their core beef isn't really with each other and is rather a) based on their initial inflammatory interactions and b) the fact that they viewed each other as direct threats and rivals for Bruce's attention as a father (and to a lesser extent, Dick as a brother) and were acting out in response to that threat. Therefore, once they got over those two humps, their relationship got significantly better (see: the bit in my original post about how they act towards each other by the time Gates of Gotham rolls around).

Finally, I disagree that WFA completely absolved Tim of wrongdoing the way you seem to think it did. Tim actively admits to not handling things well and explicitly says that he thinks he's "still holding on to old resentments" throughout both parts of the story:

It's very much not portrayed as a "one-sided" conflict; that's an active admission that he didn't handle Damian's introduction to the family well and that it's still flavoring his interactions with Damian. Damian is (theoretically) 9 in the WFA universe; of course he's going to be more outwardly antagonistic than Tim is even as Tim freely admits to both Steph and Damian that he's still "holding onto old resentments." I'm not sure where the miscommunication is happening here, but Tim shouldn't have to explicitly say "I fucked up too" for that to be the clear reading of his words, especially when previous chapters have already covered Tim's poor handling of that relationship (see Eps. 27-28, "Big Brother," for example).

Honestly I'm reading the last two paragraphs of your response and trying to figure out what you actually want. Because you say you want Tim to be mature and take responsibility for his part of his conflict with Damian, but when WFA did that you complain that he was portrayed as being mature enough to take responsibility for his part in the conflict with Damian and try to fix it.

And frankly, Damian was largely the instigator of most of the active conflict between them during the Reborn era; WFA is a fairly accurate reflection of that dynamic. For example, Tim's problem in RR #1 was with Dick before Damian got involved and started insulting him, not Damian. That's a very clear instance of instigation. As is his behavior towards Tim during the Hit List arc before he finds out about the list (which makes him very rightfully upset and angry) and then cutting Tim's line and attacking him when he finds out instead of just talking with him about it in the Cave. Also, Tim does canonically reach out to Damian at various points, like offering to take him out on patrol during the Hit List arc. So you're letting your personal dislike of Tim color your interpretation of canon to the point where you're flat-out ignoring their post-Crisis canon dynamics...which is what WFA clearly based this arc on to the point of echoing their combined monologue from Teen Titans #92 during Eps. 64 and 65.

So I'm just...not sure what you want. Your whole last paragraph is a complaint about the fandom infantilizing Tim, but that's not a problem showcased by the new episodes of WFA. You can't simultaneously complain that Tim is infantilized by the perpetuation of this conflict while also complaining that WFA is portraying him as "too mature" in the handling of it. Nor are your complaints about their early days conflict being continually dragged up by the fandom useful in a discussion about WFA, which you should be well aware of going in that it's going to cover things like that due to the nature of the comic (did you have these same complaints during Steph's insecurity arc?). It sounds like the only thing that would make you happy is for the narrative to demonize Tim and completely exonerate Damian instead, which...just isn't an accurate reflection of either their canon dynamic or of how they both have grown beyond those lingering issues with each other.

I get it: you don’t like Tim. That’s fine. You don’t need to. But you do need to realize that it is canon that Damian was jealous of him and that WFA based their episodes on a solid canonical foundation even if it's not an exact reflection of canon. You can dislike the reasoning behind it; you can think it’s dumb. But it is a canon fact and denying it because you personally hate Tim is no better than the people who demonize Damian and erase Tim's contributions to their early conflict.

yeah I’m just going to swing a bat at the hornet’s nest and wade into the discourse: Tim and Damian were canonically mutually jealous of each other during the pre-reboot era for (ironically) pretty similar reasons, and getting mad about WFA acknowledging it is an indication that you care more about defending your fave than you do about actually understanding what happened and how they’ve both grown beyond it since then

Keep reading

[paragonrobits]

How do you feel about Jennifer’s relationships to Bruce & the Hulk? She tends to against fight him alongside the other Avengers more often than not.

If I'm going to be honest, it bothers me; it bothers me a lot.

The main thing of it is that Jen isn't just Bruce's cousin, she's arguably the person closer to him than any other. Recently I started thinking that she's a case of they're physically cousins but emotionally they regard each other as brother and sister, and that's something that really sums up how they're described as close.

So it's really weird to me when Jen is positioned as fighting him with the Avengers; Immortal Hulk, in the most recent arc, at least handles this well with Jennifer being internally conflicted about fighting with her friends against her family, especially when the Avengers have a long history of being incredibly unfair and biased against Bruce, to the point of being needlessly hostile towards him. I'm reminded of when during the Doc Green thing, when Bruce came to talk to She-Hulk about how he wasn't planning on curing her, all the superhero community was there to defend her and fight him. It's good because it shows that everyone LOVES Jen, but it's mean because it feels like no one was ever interested in letting him talk things out, or explain what he was doing, they just go straight to threatening him.

And there's this unspoken implication now, that it feels especially bad because Bruce is blatantly mentally ill. He's constantly going into self-destructive spirals, he violently has mood swings, and the Hulk is the most obvious show of him going into rages to drive others away because he can't cope with the possibiliy of any potential threat or danger. And it FEELS like the Avengers honestly don't care about him or his problems unless it affects them. They leave him to suffer alone unless it looks like he's a threat, then they come down hard on him, or mistrust him for no reason, and then wonder why he holds a bitter grudge against them all.

(For instance, Susan Storm's inexplicable antagonism towards him feels almost Karen-ish, in a way that's counter to her normal personality. They barely interact, but she's so hostile towards him that it FEELS like someone who's rich and successful turning up her nose at a mentally ill person daring to exist in the same proximity and, i dunno, it's weird. Good fodder for ideas I think about, but it doesn't feel consistent with the rest of her character, though you COULD make the argument that she's a very aggressive, attack-first personality, and the Hulk being unstoppable badly scares her, so she tries to take the first offense, which turns out badly since when you threaten the Hulk, he'll just smash you to save time.)

And then there's Jennifer, who DOES have her share of problems, but hides them fairly well. One thing that doesn't seem apparent to her friends is that she's as much a monster as Bruce is. She's a Hulk. All Hulks, however pretty they are, are monsters; raging, destructive embodiments of metaphorical aspects of a person. Sometimes these are positive. Sometimes, they're not. People didn't care for the big and ugly She-Hulk phase but I liked it, because it illustrated a point:

She is a Hulk. Her friends don't seem to get what that means.

(Also while I was upset that she felt more angry about Bruce's death, when he came back, because of how it affected her, it makes her come off as really selfish and less concerned about him... well, being so bad off that he set up his own death and instead going 'think about how it made ME feel!', but this IS a pretty realistic reaction, especially when family is concerned. It's ugly and selfish, but that's family for you.)

In brief, I think they SHOULD be depicted as closer and more like brother and sister, rather than Jennifer siding against him more often than not.

[whetstonefires]

Hi Whetstonefire. I have a question about the comic where Nightwing cheats on Starfire with Barbara: What happens directly after that? Does Starfire find out that Nightwing cheated on her? And, if so, how does she react? I've read online that (according to Marv Wolfman) Starfire is the opposite of everything Batman taught Nightwing to be and that Batman taught Nightwing to be repressed and cold. What did Nightwing contribute (emotionally) to the relationship between him and Starfire? (Cont.)

(Cont.) From what I can tell, from online, Nightwing was adamant about standards of mercy and monogamy - how do you think, if Starfire were to be written as her own character and not written around Nightwing and his emotional needs, she would handle and react to that? (This bit is an FYI for other readers: this is just speculation, not hate. Sorry about that.) Sorry about the questions! Have a nice day! 

Okay there are so many separate questions packed in here! I may miss some of them lol and I do not want to put in the hours it would take to produce an orderly response to all this, so this post is going to be a mess.

Initial query and important point: the cheating story was out of continuity. Like, literally, not just by ‘being rejected by the fanbase,’ it was just this weird retcon oneshot that seems to have been some sort of fuck-you to Nightwing or his fans or something. So no, it had no in-setting fallout lol. It, in more ways than most comics, didn't exactly happen.

It was just this weird thing where Dick hooks up with Babs before giving her a wedding invitation, which is both out of character for him in general and out of step with where he was leading up to the wedding--he was desperate to get married so they could have some Normal Stable Adulthood Happiness; the choice to recharacterize him as a fuckboy who regards it as a loss of freedom isn’t congruent, on much more than the level of principle.

As far as how Kori would feel about it, if she had learned...that is very hard to say. Apart from how it would require her to reinterpret everything about where their relationship stood at that point, the data is very unclear, and I don’t even have all of it. Gonna back up to cover some of the rest of the ask, get some context here.

So this actually brings up two of my biggest gripes with Wolfman’s NTT--weird Kori characterization and the weirdly negative interpretation of Batman as parent that backwashed heavily into other titles and influenced the character for the worse, in ways we're very much still dealing with today. 😩

The latter is pretty self-explanatory, though Wolfman’s take that the main thing Bruce taught Dick was repression does shed light on some writing choices and make others funnier. But Kori. Oh my lands.

So, item one, I wouldn't say that Kori is overall opposite Bruce, or even of his philosophy? There are just some very major points of opposition. She isn’t emotionally buttoned-down like at all, especially about positive feelings, although considered realistically with all the bullshit they’ve piled into her backstory she absolutely leans on repression to cope and stay positive, which makes her a lot like Dick actually.

To an extent, she was clearly written around foiling Dick’s Batman-derived traits in the same way that Robin was written to foil Batman, bright and glad and aerial. A Flamebird to his Nightwing in theme if not in name.

You could do some interesting stuff with that, and the bildungsroman aspects of this period of Dick’s life, like he has two roads forward in terms of how he’s going to define ‘adulthood’--does it necessarily require becoming more like his mentor-father, for good and ill, or can he make Kori in part a destination, as it were, and create an adult self that is derived from who he has always been as well as the man he’s modeled himself after?

To an extent I think this even was one of the things going on in ntt but like. Only a little bit.

(Given how much like Bruce Babs is in most of the ways Kori isn’t, especially once she’s Oracle, you could make a case for her as love interest being like. Symbolic of his not being in a rebellious phase? That gets weird and oedipal really fast tho lol.)

Okay stepping down one meta level lol, the thing about answering the 'what would kori' question here is that her character is deeply bound up in her culture, about which we are told and shown a great many contradictory things. Any attempt to read her as an independent character has to tackle not only the gender stuff you allude to and these inconsistencies, but how much of the sheer mess of her is rooted in racism.

'Fantastic' racism, technically, because Tamaraneans aren't real, but the 'taming the savage' narrative that kept surfacing between them and the language used in reference to it is just. The existing racism of presumably the writers, placed in Dick's mouth, and it's super gross. I hate it so much.

(I had a faint hope when they cast her for live action it was with a deliberate intent to directly tackle and better that history, but lollllllll nah. At least they didn’t double down in it tho! Can you imagine, with a black actress, in this day and age....)

So to predict and comprehend Kori, you have to make a lot of calls about Tamaran as a civilization. I like to slightly privilege stuff established earlier if there's no good reason not to, so while much is made over time of her inappropriate rage and the violence she was raised to normalize, I think what she says in her first appearance is good to keep in mind: in her culture, kindness is for friends and cruelty is for enemies. She doesn't understand why the Titans seem to have this backwards.

Kori is not a merciless person. She’s very empathetic, as a rule. With people she loves, she is self-destructively forgiving. That's not a trait only Dick benefits from--her family keeps betraying her in new exciting ways, and she keeps letting them.

Her arc of growing away from that habit is however greatly crippled by centering Dick in the narrative and by the awful 'civilizing' overtones that keep coming into it. When she comes back after the 1986 breakup, still married to Karras, she brings with her a commitment to doing things the Earth way--to eschew lethal force as more than a compromise with her friends’ values, but as a deliberate choice.

This deserved a lot more space and time than it got, and the fact that it didn’t get it is only somewhat due to her being subordinated to Dick and to general writing fail; a lot of it’s just the team book problems of everything happening to everybody all at once.

I mean, Dick’s journey later on to deciding he loves her enough to date her even though she’s married and it’s technically against his principles was packed into this absolutely heinous issue where he was inspired by a woman refusing to separate from her husband who’d just threatened to kill her and their kid with a knife, until being stopped by Nightwing. Because he’s apologizing for what he did.

This is his inspiration for accepting Kori’s marital status! It’s supposed to be heartwarming, as far as I can tell! Not heavyhanded messaging that this is a self-destructive terrible choice in which Kori will inevitably harm him somehow! This issue is pro ‘consensual open relationships under certain circumstances’ and also ‘giving abusers another chance’ as expressions of love. Welcome to the 80s ig.

(Notable is that the wife in this issue was black and the husband and son both looked very white, so it’s probably her stepkid and she probably wouldn’t get to keep him if they separated; this is not even vaguely treated as a factor.)

Point is, everyone was getting too little space to actually go through the amount of development they were getting, and it was clumsily handled; it’s not just her.

In an overlapping period Gar processed his issues with his adoptive father with whom he constantly fought and their shared trauma over the rest of their family (the Doom Patrol) having died violently not long ago via a batshit several-issue storyline where Mento went crazy, created supermutants, and abusively mind-controlled them to attack the Titans. It is literally all like this.

Back to the infidelity thing, now. So much to unpack. So like I mentioned above, their first big breakup, while partially driven by Dick’s existing conflicted feelings about their different ideas about things like ‘killing in battle’ and ‘her identity and loyalties being tied up with her home planet,’ is explicitly over different takes on monogamy.

When Dick is breaking up with her, Kori makes it clear she thinks it’s totally reasonable to have both a husband and a love, since Karras also has someone he loves and they’re both fine with it, but the story doesn't really explain how nonmonogamy works on Tamaran, or even if it's practiced outside the context of political marriage. They do do a sort of...soulbond fusion dance...thing, as part of the ceremony, so marriage is definitely serious business. There are so many levels of cultural difference that get poor to no development.

But to return to the weird ooc retcon cheating story: because of this context, no matter what her personal norms are, Dick specifically casually sleeping with someone else would be something for Kori to be mad about, because of the hypocrisy.

Then there’s the Mirage Incident, which I haven’t read through properly and which was very poorly handled by the writers. Kori is upset about Dick having slept with someone impersonating her and there’s a general vibe of this being treated by Dick’s social circle as unfaithfulness even though he was in fact sexually violated by deceit; it famously sucks.

We still don’t learn a lot here about Kori’s ideas about monogamy, from what I have seen, because her focus is mostly on feeling like Dick doesn’t care about her enough or in the right way since he couldn’t tell the difference. Which is an understandable feeling, even if it’s not an appropriate reaction to have at him at this time.

What Nightwing contributed emotionally........hm. This is a mess, honestly; he was all over the map, and not just because of having Brother Blood in his head. I cannot speak definitively on this, it’s too inconsistent.

For most of their relationship, Kori was the more intensely invested one, the one to initiate and the one who was shown at length to be excited to come home at the end of the day to their shared apartment because her boyfriend was there to see and talk to. If we set aside his more egregious white male bullshit, Dick was pretty emotionally available most of the time, though? They were cute.

Since they split up a lot of ink has been spilled making him less into her in retrospect, but he was pretty invested--leaving her coincided with mental breakdowns both times, and it wasn’t even mostly because she was doing his emotional processing for him, because she wasn’t, although it’s fair to say he often fell into using the relationship as an emotional crutch. Kori was definitely doing the same thing though so...it wasn’t the most balanced relationship in fiction history, but apart from slight codependency and the racism, it was decent enough.

She gets more evenhanded development than most superhero love interests, honestly, because she was costarring in a team book. She had her own storylines. She had other friends.

Mostly both of them just needed some space to finish growing up and stop being retraumatized long enough to process some of the existing trauma better, and I think they could have gone on being good for each other for a long time.

[forevercloudnine]

new 52 scarebat ship meme

(I had @heroes-etc​ give me more questions, but for scarebat this time, since we talk about it 24/7 but I never post about it. These are from this ship meme.)

4. Their favorite physical feature on each other?

There’s only one feature of Bruce’s appearance that’s scarier when he’s not wearing the batsuit, and that’s his creepy blue eyes. Especially the way Greg Capullo draws them where they’re sickly pale and have ridiculously constricted pupils.

So his eyes would definitely be in the running for Jonathan’s favorite feature, even if seeing them would require Bruce’s mask to be off, which is something New 52 Scarecrow explicitly avoids. Yes, that character trait only exists to justify why Batman’s identity is still secret after Scarecrow mind controls and subsequently institutionalizes him in “Gothtopia,” but I think it’s interesting so I’m going to pretend it’s not shoe-horned in there for meta reasons.

Actually having to see Bruce without the cowl on would definitely permanently break the illusion of Batman as a nightmarish inhuman bat demon, which I’m sure is a large part of the appeal for anyone as obsessed with fear as Jonathan Crane. But Bruce’s creepy eyes would be a serious consolation prize. 

Bruce’s favorite of Jonathan’s physical features is rough, because Jonathan is famously not great re: physical features. I’m going to say his mouth, because a) that’s where the snark comes from, and b) the New 52 establishes that in one of their earlier encounters, Jonathan had sewn his own mouth shut, so it’s one of those things where a bad first impression turned positive later on leads to more fondness than if you’d made a good impression in the first place.

I just looked up the panel where he does it and I DID forget how incredibly gross his lips look here, which makes the fact that I have chosen it as Bruce’s feature seem really funny in retrospect. But I do think that seeing Jonathan’s mouth healed and unmutilated would be a reassuring reminder of how he’s stabilized since their first encounter, at least to the point that he isn’t hurting himself anymore. Also, Bruce buys him a lot of chapstick.

Bonus alternate answer that did not make it into the Google Doc:

9. How open are they with their feelings?

Bruce and Jonathan are both pretty competent deceivers in the New 52; Bruce always, Jonathan depending on how the writer is feeling (though you could argue that Bruce just has a stronger grip on reality, while Jonathan’s skill at obfuscation varies with how lucid he is).

...I was going to use Detective Comics #23.3 as an example of Jonathan being a good liar, but actually upon re-reading I’m realizing that only 1/4 rogues buy his attempt at manipulation. So maybe he’s considerably worse at hiding his intentions than he thinks he is. Regardless, he doesn’t ever attempt to disguise his obsession with Batman.

Whether or not he’d express romantic feelings or try to hide them is debatable. There’s no Masters of Fear equivalent in the New 52 establishing that he was ever mocked or punished for expressing romantic feelings for someone, though there is a flashback panel in his origin emphasizing that he was always lonely in this regard (and coincidentally doesn’t specify that his interest is in women, which is fun).

In Green Lanterns #17 he has some internal monologue about how fear is his romance and he needs Batman to feel it, but it is an INTERNAL monologue, so it’s not clear if this is something he would express to Bruce or keep to himself. Or if he’s even fully processed it himself, given how incredibly out of it he is in this comic. Most of his spoken lines are just kind of screaming incoherently. Bruce gets pretty snippy with a Green Lantern at the end of the issue for suggesting that Jonathan should be punished for his crimes as if he were in control of his actions. 

Bruce is a similarly complicated answer, since for all his deceptions and shadowy mystery he pretty much wears his heart on his sleeve when it comes to romance. It’s just that his heart doesn’t express or process emotions the same way as anyone around him, which can create conflict. His (seriously underrated) love interest during Scarecrow’s origin arc, Natalya, spent most of her time dating him thinking that he didn’t care about her for this reason. He was trying to express that he loved her, but he mostly did so through complimenting her skills, which she never took as serious declarations of affection because he wasn’t being straightforward and she was insecure.

Jonathan does not himself seem like someone who would be especially secure in the idea of another person having romantic feelings towards him, so I assume that while Bruce might THINK he’s being open with any romantic feelings he develops, he would in reality just be really confusing.

13. How do they react to being away from each other?

I actually think that in general, Jonathan is one of the few people who would have no issue dealing with Bruce’s tendency to unexpectedly go AWOL for long periods of time, given that he himself has a tendency to fixate on his work to the exclusion of everything else.

But New 52 Jonathan specifically probably has pretty serious abandonment issues due to his father putting him in “the pit” and dying before he could take him out, meaning that Jonathan was waiting for his dad to come back for him for God knows how long, until Jonathan Sr.’s employers finally sent the police to investigate. 

So while in general I think he wouldn’t be very clingy, any impression that Bruce had died or otherwise wasn’t coming back for him would probably be incredibly triggering. If Bruce could assuage this reaction by occasionally sending updates that at least indicated he was still alive, then I doubt Jonathan would have any problems with his absence.

(@heroes-etc​: bruce sending like a checkmark emoji once a day. jonathan hears his phone ping, looks at the screen, and goes hm. good. and doesnt respond.)

Bruce meanwhile has no problem ditching literally any love interest at any time if something crime-related comes up, unless he’s considering quitting the cowl for them (as Joker probably accurately fears will happen with Catwoman in Prelude to the Wedding). But I don’t think he’d stop being Batman for Scarecrow, nor would Jonathan ever want him to — he’s interested in Batman, not necessarily Bruce Wayne.

But even though Bruce wouldn’t have an emotional problem with distance, I think he would get similarly paranoid if they went too long without contact, though for different reasons than Jonathan. Unlike some other villains (*cough* Joker and Riddler), Scarecrow has machinations that don’t require getting Batman’s attention, so if he decided to continue with his less legal experiments, he would not feel compelled to get Bruce involved. While the “World’s Greatest Detective” would probably not have an issue keeping an eye on Jonathan while he’s in Gotham, he’s considerably less capable of that in space. And Jonathan is definitely a rogue he would be obsessed with keeping an eye on, even if he reformed. 

Batman & Robin Eternal established that Dick’s first supervillain conflict AND first mission leaving the country was chasing Scarecrow across the world for an entire summer, which is kind of insane considering how early it was in Batman’s career. Like, he did not have an army of children to watch Gotham for him while he was gone. He had one child, and he took that child WITH him. He left Gotham undefended for months, JUST to catch Scarecrow. Sooo that in of itself implies he wouldn’t be great at keeping his distance.

15. Does their view of themselves differ from their partner’s view?

Well, Jonathan occasionally sees Bruce as a giant bat demon, so yes.

Outside of that very obvious differing view, Jonathan in general sees himself and the rest of the rogue gallery as more vital to Batman’s identity than Bruce considers them; the extent to which he’s right varies depending on your interpretation of Bruce’s character, but it’s definitely not something Bruce would ever consciously think or say. 

This is related to something that’s definitely a misconception of his, though, which is that the majority of Batman’s job revolves around supervillains like him. In Kings of Fear, when Jonathan blackmails Bruce into letting him come on patrol with him (which is a whole thing in of itself), he’s shocked at how boring most of Batman’s work is. Which probably goes along hand in hand with sometimes seeing Bruce as an almost mythologically inhuman figure. 

In his defense, it’s not like he has a lot of context for what the minutiae of Batman’s job is like. He’s either fighting Batman, hiding from Batman, or imprisoned by Batman in Arkham, a place where everyone else also spends all their time fighting or hiding from Batman. Which would really skew your perspective.

Interestingly, Bruce and Jonathan are both people who pride themselves on being extremely self-aware. Both of them probably inaccurately. You can rant about how you have a perfect understanding of your troubled mental state all day long, but if you’re still dressing up like a monster at night to indulge the power fantasies you created as a traumatized child by scaring the hell out of people, there’s probably a level of self-realization you haven’t gotten to yet.

Bruce however is at least self-aware enough to regularly be able to analyze his way out of fear toxin induced hallucinations, which Jonathan is unable to do — when he’s not depicted as having become immune to his fear toxin due to overexposure (as he is in Green Lanterns #17), he can be defeated with the same formulas that Batman regularly manages to resist (like his honestly embarrassing breakdown in Nightwing #50). 

Which ties into the difference between how he sees himself and how Bruce sees him: Jonathan obviously visualizes himself as a “master” of fear. He actually has the same internal monologue about fear and trauma that Bruce does in Batman: The Dark Knight #13: “Make it your own... run to what you fear... stare it in the eye... until it whimpers and backs down.” But Bruce doesn’t see Scarecrow as conquering his fear; he sees him as addicted to it, to the point of his own detriment.

Which is interesting, because Jonathan clearly sees his Scarecrow persona as a way to regain control after being victimized by his father’s fear experiments throughout his childhood. I guess Bruce’s perspective would be that Jonathan’s father instead got him addicted to fear as a child, so his attempts at agency as Scarecrow are just a) reliving his trauma over and over and b) compulsively inflicting his own trauma on others. There’s probably some truth to that, even if overall it’s probably an oversimplification (and coincidentally pretty much EXACTLY what Riddler argues Bruce is doing by “funding” Batman in Batman Annual #4, so there’s that).

20. Did either person change at all, to be with their partner?

The obvious answer here is yes, because Jonathan is a supervillain with no regard for human life while Bruce is a superhero who has dedicated his life to protecting people. So presumably one or both of them would have to make serious compromises to be together. HOWEVER. Scarecrow’s primary motivation is to research, understand and inflict fear, while Batman’s modus operandi is making his enemies afraid of him. So despite their contradiction in morals, they’re uniquely positioned to advance each other’s goals, were they to ever join forces.

Bruce never has a problem using fear toxin on Scarecrow, presumably partially out of an “eye for an eye” sense of poetic justice, but also because Batman is practical and it’s a nonlethal weapon that’s always available to him while fighting Scarecrow. If he could have fear toxin customized for his own use, it’s hard to imagine him being unwilling to use it. In Gothtopia he actually advocates for using what’s leftover from Crane’s new formula on all the inmates at Arkham, which seems about as insanely morally ambiguous as it gets. Arguably, putting fear toxin in his smoke bombs would be considerably less wrong than drugging mental patients out of their mind when they’re supposed to be receiving therapy (this is also the issue where he illegally releases Poison Ivy because she did him a favor, which is both morally questionable and relevant to the current topic).

Jonathan obviously already thinks Batman is the most interesting possible case study in fear; it’s why he keeps coming back to Bruce and Gotham despite being one of the more independent villains in Batman’s rogue gallery in the New 52. So though he would have to give up actively kidnapping people (which would be a huge sacrifice, I’m sure), teaming up with Bruce would give him unrestricted access to his favorite test subject. Unfortunately, it seems very possible that he would fall back to old tricks if he ever felt that he’d gotten everything he could out of a partnership with Bruce. Fortunately, that would probably take a VERY long time.

[rwdestuffs]

These guys didn’t make the mom shirt Yang and Summer because they want to make a Raven redemption arc.

Which, while I’m not against it, it’s best to release that sort of shirt after the redemption arc.

It’s kinda inevitable that Raven is going to die and transfer the Maiden powers to Yang, and the only way to make that heartbreaking is if Raven redeems herself. Likely before Yang can forgive her and move on from that whole ordeal.

Or maybe it’s because they are also buying into Yang’s issues in that both the artists and Yang don’t see Summer as her mother.

Or, and this is 99% here as a joke, it’s so that they don’t feed the Summer x Raven shippers.

Like… There is no reason to release this now.

Like… It’s fine and is honestly interesting writing to have Yang have conflicting feelings regarding Raven. Raven was a driving part of her character for the longest time, was the one who gave birth to her, and also got her to start questioning things instead of accepting them blindly. But she’s also a deadbeat, a bandit, and somewhat emotionally manipulative.

Like… Yes. Her whole thing about “You can leave and join Oz and Qrow where you’ll get vague nonanswers, or you can stay and get more answers.” is emotionally manipulative, but it’s far less manipulative of emotions than the Ozluminati’s whole “Become the Fall Maiden and give up your hopes and dreams for us, or the bad guys win” gave to Pyrrha!

I loved that moment! I honestly loved that because the choice given by Raven is far more an even choice than the ultimatum that the Ozluminati gave to Pyrrha, and I was excited to see that play through!

As an aside, why is it that Raven gets the label of “emotionally manipulative” but the Ozluminati’s whole “Become the Fall Maiden for us, or the bad guys win” thing isn’t seen as gaslighting or emotionally manipulative? Is it because they’re mostly men? I see people give way more crap to Raven for her shit than anyone gives to Oz and his group for theirs.

My own irritation aside, this shirt is honestly in bad taste at best, or is malicious at worst. How often were we expected to forgive the “Shitty father” character in fiction? At this point, why not make a Zuko and Ozai shirt? How about Weiss and Jacques? Why not Crona and Medusa? Hell, let’s just do Bruce Banner and Brian Banner. Y’know, Brian Banner. The guy who did this:

We haven’t gotten our inevitable and likely rushed Raven redemption arc that will be made so that we’d be sad™ when she dies and passes the Maiden powers to Yang yet. As of right now, this shirt is shit.

[dynamic-duo-deposit]

Do you think Dick is a BatCat shipper? I loved him in Hush he looked so innocent and cute telling Bruce that Selina is good for him!

Before I answer this, some disclaimers- 

1- I haven’t read Tom King’s Batman Rebirth run with the BatCat not-wedding yet, so I can’t speak to that nor Dick’s reaction to it.  (Though I am aware of the general plot points.)

2- As with all things Batman, we are talking about 80 years of comics here.  Also, while I generally enjoy and appreciate BatCat, I’m a casual shipper at best, so it’s not really my focus and I’m sure some more knowledgeable Selina fans would have more to say on the subject.

3- Oh boy, this is longer than I meant it to be.

With that out of the way- Yes, Dick Grayson is generally pretty fond of Catwoman (perhaps a bit too fond at times) and subsequently, her relationship with Bruce.

Regarding Hush, Dick being pro-BatCat is straight from the comic-

(Batman #615)

But going back in time, I think this question was prompted by these panels from Batman #3, and that is pretty typical of their early interactions.  Basically, Golden Age Robin spends most of Catwoman’s first appearances being profoundly unimpressed by Bruce’s Thirst.  (Likewise to modern reinterpretations.)

However by 1947 in Detective Comics #122, Dick has reached the point where he seems amused by it and teases Catwoman about Batman, even if she denies any feelings.  

(Spoilers: She’s lying.  She’s had a crush on Batman since issue #3)

Most of the time though, while they did interact, they didn’t have much one-on-one time, and any connection between Selina and Dick took the backseat to each of their relationships with Bruce.  Catwoman was also reformed for a while, and went through extended periods where she wasn’t even showing up in the comics.

Here’s where I say that I’m really rusty on the Silver Age, so someone else might have a better memory of good Dick and Selina scenes from that period.  

(I’m also curious about their relationship in the original Earth-2 comics where Bruce and Selina were married, since I haven’t read much of that. Though I know Selina dies and I don’t get the sense they had much of a connection.)

However, I have been reading a lot of Bronze Age comics lately and The Lazarus Affair storyline does have some really great Dick and Selina (And Dick shipping BatCat) moments worth sharing. 

Dick goes to Selina for assistance with Talia, because no one else could “help [him] in the same way [Selina] can.”

(Batman #332)

This leads to Robin and Catwoman going on a mission together and eventually discovering Talia and Batman kissing, which upsets Selina.

(Batman #332)

Catwoman has her own side-story trying to prove Talia’s involvement with shady endeavors, and they talk about Selina’s feelings for Batman.

(Batman #333)

Dick and Selina have good teamwork throughout the story though.  Complete with undercover disguises and other shenanigans.

(Batman #333)

While Talia is ultimately cleared, (also- she dies and is resurrected. As it goes with that family.) Dick makes it very clear to Bruce at the end here, that he is very much “Team Selina.”  

(Batman #335)

Dick eventually leaves to join the Titans and isn’t around Gotham as much, and when Dick does start showing up in Gotham again more in the 90′s/early 2000′s I know that Nightwing and Catwoman are both in some of the same big Bat-events, but outside of sharing panels I can’t think of any really memorable interactions between the two off the top of my head?

We do have things like this though-

 (Gotham Knights #10)

And this-

(Nightwing #52)

They also had a couple of nice interactions during the Dickbats era.  

(Gotham City Sirens #7)

Although not without conflict. (Or weird compliments.  Or Selina referring to herself as Bruce’s possession.  Yikes.)

(Batman #692)

Anyways, this is not even close to a complete collection of Dick and Selina moments and as I disclaimed at the beginning, I’m not up-to-date with recent BatCat-related events.

To be fair, I don’t think Dick and Selina have even had much interaction or connection (BatCat-related or otherwise) outside the wedding arc post-new 52 reboot?  Except kinda Forever Evil, which made it clear she didn’t even know who he was.  Which is depressing.

(Forever Evil #3)

But yeah, I really enjoy Selina and Dick’s relationship, and it’s one of the factors that makes me enjoy BatCat.  (It’s nice when your kid approves of your girlfriend.)  

Dick and Selina are both very adaptable, their interactions tend to be lighthearted and fun (when they’re not too cougar-ly), and they’ve worked pretty well as a team when the situation that calls for it.  When Selina’s criminal activity isn’t getting in the way, they seem to enjoy each other.

From a Dick and Bruce perspective, he also likes that she can bring a different side out of Bruce, and it’s also often a fun opportunity for lighthearted banter and for Dick to get to tease Bruce in a way no one else can.  

(Batman #615)

(Because Bruce can be pretty useless whenever Catwoman shows up and Dick is aware of this.)

(Batman #15)

I do have to say that calling Dick a “BatCat shipper” does feel a bit, I dunno, reductive?  He genuinely respects and even likes Selina a lot of the time, and she’s one of his favorites when it comes to Bruce’s girlfriends because of that, but it’s not exactly his character’s focus.  Dick has his own life without worrying about who Bruce is dating.

With that said– Dick is definitely a BatCat shipper and these are some of the highlights from 80 years of comics proving it.  

He’s a fan.

(Batman #615)

[distort-opia]

Aaa, yes precisely! This is what I was wondering about as well. How connected is the I Am A Gun story to the main plotline of the Batman title? Why did Zdarsky feel it was necessary to give the Batman of Zur-en-Arrh more backstory, and involved Joker in both it and the conclusion of Failsafe?

My main guess right now is that the next arc will parallel Batman: R.I.P somehow, since it's the most significant story for Batman of Zur-en-Arrh-- but not only because of that. The summary for Batman (2016) #131 says the following: "Gotham City has never been darker or deadlier. And after Failsafe, there is no Batman to save it. Can the fractured ghost that roams the streets survive? Whatever happened to the man known as… Bruce Wayne?" A fractured ghost... it does sound quite a lot like what happened to Bruce in R.I.P, after The Black Glove first attacked and Batman of Zur-en-Arrh took over. Bruce wondered the streets of Gotham having forgotten who he was and struggling to find himself, with Joker later on playing a major role in his recovery.

But I rambled about the links between R.I.P, Failsafe and I Am A Gun more extensively in an earlier post, in which I also mention the potential connections to TMWSL. Seeing as the identity crisis theme in both comics continues... I still think it'd be really cool if the two titles intersected. Because with the way everything's been set up so far, both by Zdarsky and by Rosenberg, it'd make sense. It'd make so much sense for Batman and Joker to help each other find themselves again (save each other), after the message of I Am A Gun and the conflict regarding identity at the heart of both Failsafe and TMWSL. But we'll have to wait and see, I suppose. I am wary of placing too much faith in DC, sadly.

Alright excuse my compulsion to situate everything within a timeline, but. I love that now there's more than one story taking place before The Killing Joke that establishes Bruce empathizing and relating to Joker, and that Zdarsky clearly took inspiration from the one before his own for this aspect of Bruce and Joker's relationship.

The events of Zdarsky's I Am A Gun take place while Dick is a boy and still Robin, early in Batman's career... and so does Darwyn Cooke's amazing-showstopping-spectacular Batman: Ego. In Ego, we get another instance of Bruce's mind being split in two; there being a separation between Bruce and Batman, with the embodiment of Batman arguing for Joker's murder:

-- Batman: Ego

But Bruce says no. He says he isn't a killer:

Forever obsessed with how Darwyn Cooke so efficiently conveys how Bruce understands Joker, and relates to him. He knows Joker chose madness to deal with tragedy, that he was faced with the same choice Bruce was, and that Bruce could've become him. Because that's what Bruce lapsing into laughter and acting like Joker shows.

But the story is centred around Bruce in Batman: Ego, while in I Am A Gun... perhaps the best line to summarize it is Bruce thinking to himself, "Is the Joker broken too?" in Batman (2016) #128. It's not just the two facets of Bruce vs. Batman in this story, it's also the two facets of Joker: a human being, and a monster.

The conflict in Bruce is mirrored in Joker, and I am kissing Zdarsky on the mouth for acknowledging it and portraying it so beautifully. There's a monster in Bruce made out of hollow anger, and there's a human being crying for help buried inside Joker:

-- Batman (2016) #130 -- I Am A Gun

"He'll fix you." And Martha being the one to say this, the one who becomes Joker herself in a different world, a different Universe... perhaps it's not intentional, but it feels so relevant. In Flashpoint, Thomas Wayne is a Batman who kills. In New 52's Earth 2, he's a Batman who killed Joker himself. And in Bruce's head, it's Thomas Wayne arguing for Joker's death.

But I just love that keeping both I Am A Gun and Ego in mind, knowing that these thoughts and emotions were there for Bruce for years, makes The Killing Joke... even more poignant.

Bruce has been thinking about this for a long time. And all of it coming to a head with the iconic offer for help, with the one time Bruce offered Joker his hand despite what Joker had just done...

-- Batman: The Killing Joke

[clenches fist] It's beautiful.

[cosmicheromp3]

Hi, I’m kinda new to the fandom, and I wanted to read more about dick Grayson and the batfamily. Do you think you could recommend some comics I should start with?

hi, of course! i actually have a comic recs blog @whatthefuckisacomic, where there’s a batfam tag and a dick grayson tag that you can browse, plus a page dedicated to tips for starting out with comics. the batfam is a bit hard to rec for because quality can vary drastically from comic to comic, and it’s hard to go “you might have to read this because the event is important to understand what’s going on, but it’s a pain because the writer sucks”. for a starting point i’ll try to stay away from those, though.

under the read more i more or less ended up following a timeline for dick, but i tried to give you options in case something isn’t up your alley and you want to move on to something else. i hope it’s still easy to follow, and don’t hesitate to ask me any follow up questions! these are all gonna be pre-reboot recommendations, because dick’s characterization was very watered down with the n52 and i frankly prefer to just stick with stuff from before.

let’s get into it!

a good starting point for dick, because it’s easy to read and quite beginner friendly, would be robin: year one – i don’t like chuck dixon’s writing in general, but this is one of the exceptions where i would recommend it. an enjoyable origin story you can also read is batman: year three, published in batman #436-439, which mixes present time events (set after jason todd’s death) with flashbacks to dick’s origin. it’s not necessary to read batman: year one and year two before to understand what’s happening in year three, but they’re important batman stories, so if you’re interested in bruce i’d encourage you to read those too.

while we’re still on origin stories, if you want a comic that goes straight to the facts, thoroughly but superficially, and is quite useful to get a good idea for how dick became robin, formed the teen titans, then became nightwing, you can check out secret origins (1986) #13. just keep in mind that it details the pre-crisis version of events, so some of it has been retconned and it might conflict with other stuff you’ve read, or will read.

personally, i find that dick’s most enjoyable stories happen when he’s with the titans, so i strongly encourage you to check out the new teen titans, if you don’t mind older comics style.

as for dick becoming nightwing, you should read the original story where it happened, which would be the judas contract, an arc published in tales of the teen titans (it’s collected as a tpb for easier reading). marv wolfman recently wrote a story set during this time in the robin 80th anniversary special and it has great dick and bruce characterization imo. i don’t recommend reading the whole special if you’re not familiar with the robins already because there’s a lot of callbacks to other comics, but after you’ve read the judas contract you can check out wolfman’s story at least. again, these follow pre-crisis continuity, but they’re very much worth it.

then there’s the nightwing (1996) solo which is... a mess, mostly. tomasi’s run (collected under nightwing: freefall and nightwing: the great leap) is usually regarded as the best from that comic. other than that this solo can be mostly boring or plain bad at times. i read all 153 issues of it (it was one of my first batfam comics i read), and i’ll say that while it could be a drag it was useful in that following a comic going from 1996 to 2009 helped me find some important events in batman history when it crossed over – same can be said for the robin (1993) solo. i’d only tell you to check it out if you have a lot of time in your hands and very low standards, but please don’t start there. i’m only saying this cause it was useful for me when i was in a moment when i wanted to read everything. if that doesn’t apply to you, better to stay away.

that tangent out of the way, let’s go back to comics i do recommend lmao. nightwing: old friends, new enemies is a good one where he teams up with roy harper. another one to go with my dickroy agenda is outsiders (2003), but before you read that you need to read titans/young justice: graduation day to understand the context under which the outsiders are formed. dick’s characterization during outsiders is very particular because it’s set at a low point in his life after he’s lost donna troy; he might seem different than in other comics, but it’s very important to understand him as a character.

lastly, dick had a pretty solid stint as batman after bruce “died” – i always say that while being batman wasn’t good for dick, dick was good as batman. for this period in his life, you have batman: long shadows, then batman: the black mirror. for more batfam interactions during this time, you can read gates of gotham, and for his relationship with damian there’s batman & robin (2009).

these should give you a good idea of some important things in his character’s history. just as a reassurance: don’t be intimidated by the amount – he’s a very old character so it’s only natural there’s a lot –, and any of these you could probably enjoy without having read everything before (except i wouldn’t recommend you start with a comic like outsiders without being acquainted with his character first, since it has very specific characterization).

as for more general batfam comics, i know a lot of people point to gotham knights for that, but i personally haven’t read it so i can’t speak for it. and i can’t make this post without recommending batgirl (2000), because it’s just great. you might also want to read jason’s death (a death in the family) and tim’s subsequent introduction (a lonely place for dying) just because they’re so often referenced, and i could go on with other important events... but there’s so many i’d rather tell you to follow another character’s reading list, than read important comics without context for the sake of reading them. this is where i plug in my sideblog again; if there’s any other batfam characters you’re interested in reading more about, you can find them listed in the tags page.

as a final note i feel like it’s my duty to encourage you to branch out to comics other than the batfam, which is what people new in the fandom tend to read the most just because it’s the most popular. i still love them and i still read their comics but there’s a lot of good comics for other characters, a lot of them better than many batfam comics since, like i said, they can be a gamble as to their quality. sometimes there’s dynamics that the fandom demands for batfam comics that can actually be found in canon for other dc families.

if you want to branch out but you’re unsure about jumping straight into another family with zero knowledge, i recommend reading team comics that include batfam members and using those to get to know more characters. i actually recommend doing that even if you’re not trying to branch out yet – reading about batfam characters outside of the gotham context, which can be very isolationist, usually adds a different dimension to them and you’ll find interesting takes on these same characters. for example, some of my favourite characterization for tim happens in young justice (1999) – another very fun beginner friendly comic i recommend –, and i enjoy bruce more when he’s with the justice league or alongside superman than i do in his solo comics.

and that’s it! don’t hesitate to ask me or DM me for anything else, and just remember that recommendations are very subjective. when reading comics what usually happens, to me at least, is that you pick something up, maybe leave it for a while, check out something else, come back to the first thing, and so on. while following a list or something you might find a different character that you enjoy and want to know more about, you might see an event that catches your interest, realize you like a writer and want to check out their stuff, and in my opinion allowing yourself to follow what you like is the most effective way to make reading comics an actually enjoyable experience.

i made it into a list in case you don’t want to read through my ramblings every time, ordered a bit better:

robin: year one

batman: year three

optional before: batman year one, batman year two

secret origins (1986) #13

the new teen titans

the judas contract

nightwing: old friends, new enemies

outsiders (2003)

for context read titans/young justice: graduation day

nightwing: freefall

nightwing: the great leap

batman: long shadows

batman & robin (2009)

batman: the black mirror

gates of gotham

not dick specific

batgirl (2000) - for cass

young justice (1999) - for tim

good luck!