#with a hokage who genocided his people

[gai-sucks-titties-in-my-basement]

People criticize the Itachi reveal often because I think they have it in their heads that the Uchiha somehow had a chance of survival in a war, when Kishimoto intentionally shows us that the Uchiha failed a war before to a much less powerful and all encompassing opponent. Because the Uchiha aren’t built for war, they are built for love. Itachi made the only decision he could that would guarantee the life of Sasuke Uchiha would be spared. The point of Sasukes character is that he was always loved. His path of darkness does not exist. His revenge is not against a random act of cruelty on him, isolate him, victimized because he is unloved, but a battle for a bloodline that was declared dead the moment Madara conceded. The Itachi reveal is not to “redeem” Itachi its to let us know that the core of Sasukes character was never darkness, but love.

[orcelito]

That bitch Danzo getting killed and it starts showing his past like I'm supposed to be sad for this piece of shit??? I'm Not. He's a warmonger and a fucking snake. He caused so much suffering, literally inlaid the eyes of Sasuke's murdered clan in his arm -- the clan that HE ORDERED TO BE MURDERED. He conducted genocide for the sake of "peace", and even in death he thinks it's for the best of the village. Nevermind the fact that he literally stole children from their families to indoctrinate them into his underground cult, and he was just Allowed to do this??? Hiruzen when I catch you...!!!!!!

Anyways fuck this dude, I'm glad he's dead. Good for you, Sasuke.

[please-read-the-manga]

Hm, been contemplating these panels lately and thinking about which character is constantly demonized within the fandom/fan works involving them and which is frequently viewed as the ultimate loving and moral person...

And:

One is a man bearing the supposed 'Curse of Hatred' who loves his children so much that he is continuing to parent and offer unconditional love to his son even after said son has already participated in the brutal state-sanctioned genocide of their people/culture and is about to end his (and his wife's - who, btw, is on the same page as him) life.

The other is a man from the supposed 'Clan of Love' who boldly holds the conviction that he would cease his compassion towards even his own child if they stood against him and his dream (the village), regardless of the fact his dream (the village) is a corruptible entity that does not maintain personhood.

Interestingly, I think there is something to be said for the fact both Fugaku and Hashirama are also shown struggling to understand Itachi and Madara (respectively).

Fugaku is actually quite honest regarding his issues in relating to Itachi and while we're not always privy to all the conversations they've had about the state of the clan/sentiment of the Leaf village towards their people, it's clear that those discussions have been had. While the panels where we do see more explicit conversations taking place show Fugaku reiterating to Itachi that his role in ANBU is to serve as a pipeline between the clan/village (which could be argued as an unfair burden foisted onto a child, in my opinion) there are also moments that indicate Fugaku is willing to defer to Itachi (at least on some topics) when his son offers a contradictory viewpoint (like attendance at Sasuke's entrance ceremony, for example).

Side note... this also reminds me of the very short (unfortunately) interactions we see between Madara and his father, Tajima. Tajima clearly respects his son as well and defers to him when Madara insists that they not fight Hashirama and his family on the river - Tajima accepts this from his son without pause.

Alternatively, we also see Madara trying to explain his perspective to a skeptical Hashirama before he commits to taking more drastic actions. Madara is trying to articulate his frustrations with what is happening in the village/how it is progressing with regards to his clan and (even though we never really get Madara's own unfiltered perspective on this time period) we are shown instances of Madara's grievances holding water (ie. Tobirama advocating for Madara not to be made Hokage, but instead pushing randomly for a democratic system that never seems to actually be cemented or made precedent within the village afterwards but absolutely benefits Hashirama/the Senju in the short-run, Madara 'overhearing' Tobirama's continued bias against the Uchiha in private conversations between the brothers, Hashirama continuing to scold his brother -someone who had ample power within the system of governance since its inception- for his bias against the clan even when they're brought back via the edo tensei, etc). Hashirama tries to (weakly, in my opinion) defend the village status quo/way it is progressing and seems to want to better understand Madara, but isn't willing or is unable to go that extra mile for his friend - and, perhaps in some ways, Madara too was unwilling/unable to articulate himself in a more digestible way once their divergence of opinion on their shared village came to this new crux.

Ultimately, I just find it interesting that Fugaku, this character who is often portrayed by fans as a demon of hatred and cruelty, would (in reality) stand by his son even in his darkest hour, even as he is unjustly slaughtering their family, and continue to reaffirm that he is proud of Itachi/loves him - and this is directly counter to Hashirama who asserts he would absolutely kill anyone (including a child) that stood between him protecting that which he loves the most (the village).

And, of course, we also have this to chew on lol...

Sasuke explaining to edo Hashirama that Itachi inherited his 'Will of Fire' jingoism.

Mandatory disclaimer that Fugaku is not infallible and all the characters here (but Fugaku and Hashirama in particular) are their own people/the circumstances do vary (especially as one relationship is framed in the context of father-son and the other as two friends/peers)... I should also note that I still enjoy Hashirama as a character, I just think his flaws are often under-examined and that the hypocrisy inherent to the 'Will of Fire' philosophy/the Leaf Village (and by extension the shinobi world) is equally neglected especially when it comes to this fandom's love of tearing down the Uchiha to their worst traits/moments. But, man, something about these two panels and character portrayals in particular have just been eating at me the past few days, so I figured I'd try to work out some thoughts on them.

[thottyimagines]

Top 5 fucked up things that happend in Naruto?

This lived in my drafts for quite a while as I went back and forth with just a top five. I don't think this is in any particular order, because good god these people have suffered. Also, please note that I haven't read or watched Boruto and know nothing about it, so whatever atrocities occur there are mysteries to me.

That time Rin committed suicide by jumping into Kakashi's Chidori, then everyone started calling him Friend Killer Kakashi and even he believes he murdered his teammate in cold blood for the good of the village.

When Minato decided to make his minutes-old son the Kyuubi container and then swiftly leave him as an orphan, and Hiruzen thought the best thing to do would be to let the village terrorize him and leave him without the protection of his powerful, beloved parents' legacies.

Nagato going off the deep end after Yahiko got murdered and deciding to use his dead bestie's body as one of his paths, forcing Konan (who may or may not have been romantically linked with Yahiko, but at the very least was another childhood best friend) to interact with his corpse for years to come as Nagato's real body rotted in the basement.

Orochimaru's whole child experimentation/abduction/murder/body snatching extravaganza is just...horrific. He truly is a plague upon the elemental nations, and I believe if Tobirama were Hokage when Orochimaru started to get weird, he would have been put down like a mad dog. Maybe Minato would have tried to do it had he lived long enough, too.

You can't have a list of fucked up Naruto things without mentioning the obvious Uchiha massacre. Village-sanctioned genocide perpetuated by a 13-year-old family member and his insane cousin masquerading as their equally-insane ancestor is some dark shit, and that's not even getting to the other related factors (re: eyeball snatching, the Sasuke of it all, Divine Intervention via moon goddess planting the seeds of it happening at all).

[phoenixremix69]

Sasuke, in my opinion, deserved to fuck off

and I don't mean that in a bad way. Sasuke and Team Taka as a whole were people who got firmly fucked over by the world and shinobi society and deserved to leave.

Juugo was born with an uncontrollable medical condition and the only one willing to "help" him was a genocidal madman that was allowed to do whatever atrocities he felt like because the hokage said to let him go that one time

Karin is a survivor of another genocide, and was only allowed to live because her mother and her were deemed useful enough to live as slaves, to the point where her mother was literally sucked dry of chakra and died. Only to be recruited by, oh my god, same crazy asshole. and that was somehow a step up for her

then Suigetsu, another genocide survivor over another uncontrollable medical condition. except in his case, the uncontrollable part was just him having extra powers with barely any downsides. and in fact, he was jazzed to be part of kiri. he was totally up for being a loyal shinobi and joining their most elite group. But fuck that, tube time

and finally, Sasuke Uchiha. another genocide survivor, except this time, the genocide was performed by the person he loved most in the world. a person who proceeded to torture him for a few days straight. and then got no consequences so for all Sasuke knows, he's been completely free to kill more people and ruin more lives. and the only comfort he has is that he's safe in the village, and that one day he'll be strong enough to kill him. except not. another round of torture and being reminded that he should be strong and the only way to be strong is to give up your bonds. so he does, he gives up on his friends and his village and goes to train with the guy promising him free magic powers. and he does it. he kills the man that's been haunting him for almost a decade. only to be told no, not only did that man love him more than anything, not only was he ordered to kill everyone by the village council, but that same council is still very much in power. In fact, one of them has been abducting orphans and brainwashing them into child soldiers for decades. and literally everyone knew. it's not like kakashi never told anyone, hell, he tried to kill the ninja dictator once. so sasuke goes to kill him, and the konoha council, and every leader who keeps perpetuating this bullshit system. and the whole time, his "friends" keep telling him. "Let it go! ignore the systematic oppression and subsequent slaughter your clan faced for decades. ignore all the atrocities the shinobi system has perpetuated and continues to perpetuate even now! come back to the village that's been fucking you over your entire life!"

Fuck that. at the end of the story, after naruto and sasuke's big final battle, and naruto tells sasuke to come bvack, he should've been like "fuck you. i might not have been right but you sure as shit aren't right either. so you know what i'm gonna do? i'm gonna take my actual team, and these chakra monsters that've also been oppressed and enslaved under the shinobi system, and i'm gonna jump in a dimension hole, and never come back. if you ever want me to reconsider, maybe try living up to your promises and start changing things for the better. i'd start with the actual slavery your girlfriend's "family practices

[thetrashthatsmilesback]

My issue with how Naruto is portrayed as hokage in Boruto, and subsequently the treatment of the surviving Uchiha (Sasuke and Sarada) in Boruto, is that it undermines the political messaging of Naruto completely.

So Naruto (the character) agrees with Nagato and Sasuke regarding the abuse they faced and the need for an overhaul of Shinobi society. This is not where he disagrees with them. Naruto (the character) is the closest thing the manga has to a pacifist (though he's a poor representation of one, I'm not going to harp on that too hard as I'm not expecting the shonen manga to get too deep into leftist political theory for its audience of 12 year olds). He is not shown to actually disagree with Nagato or Sasuke on the basis of their beliefs, but instead on their actions. Naruto doesn't believe that mass suffering is needed to bring peace (Nagato's plan of causing pain to bring empathy.) He also doesn't believe in killing all of the kages or martyring Sasuke as someone to be eternally hated for the sake of peace. His issue with killing the kages has to do with the instability that would lead to (what we're shown).

So in modern terms, Naruto is closest to a socdem - someone who wants to work within the system to bring about leftist changes to the system.

Okay

But then we get to Boruto and we have:

The Uchiha tablet has been moved to the middle of the woods, effectively erasing their culture from Konoha completely

Sarada has people making comments about her carrying the curse of hate and faces discrimination for her ancestors part in the fourth war - meaning the very conditions which facilitated the Uchiha massacre/genocide are still in place, furthered by a lack of history education of the Uchiha via the removal of their cultural texts to outside the village (the tablet)

Children still are sent to fight and die for Konoha

The council of elders still has political strength

The anbu still exist

Those who took part in hiding the truth behind the Uchiha massacre/genocide have faced no consequences and have maintained their positions of power

The hokage still has an unlimited term AND is not elected by the citizens of Konoha - the hokage still falls under the control of the will of the elders if they wish to keep their position

And the thing that gets me is that there is no evidence in Naruto (the manga) that Naruto (the character) would hide the truth of the Uchiha massacre. He immediately went to tell people but was held back by Kakashi, but Kakashi would have no power over him once he's hokage.

So is this some commentary about how revolution is the only path forward towards change? I'd be shocked at kishi's sudden change in political beliefs but fair enough, i can totally work with the narrative through that view point.

But the why the fuck is Sasuke, the main revolutionary of the series, now an asset of the state?

Or was the idea that change takes time?

But why were they able to erect a statue of Itachi whilst moving the last of Uchiha culture literally outside the village.

Is it that Kishi didn't think about his own political messages before writing Boruto, effectively ruining Naruto's character as a fighter for the oppressed?

Most likely.

Because at the end of Naruto, Naruto vowed to fight for the oppressed. He wanted to fix things for Nagato, and Neji, and Sasuke. He wanted to overhaul the entire system, he just wanted to do so in a way that wouldn't result in more civilian deaths.

That his time as hokage in canon has finished the eradication of a culture from konoha, continued the abuses of children, did not end Konoha's economic reliance on violence, and more is a complete destruction of his character.

And the thing is that Naruto didn't have to end by validating Nagato, Neji, and Sasuke's beliefs. Kishi could have gone full ally of the oppressive state and painted them as incorrect wholly and completely.

He didn't.

He made the choice to have them be objectively mistreated and to have his protagonist agree that change was necessary. HE is the one who validated them. He is the one who wrote their oppression into the story, and also had his protagonist agree they were oppressed and that change is necessary

[team7-headquarter]

Team 7 introductions are like:

Naruto: I want to obtain POWER so I can force people to look at me like an actual human being and not a monster, haha! They won't ignore me or isolate me anymore! They're gonna BEG ME and put their lives on my hands and— Oh and ramen. All the ramen. And maybe prove to everyone that they are dumb ass fuck for not believing in me? Yeah, prove them wrong, that's cool! And and and Iruka-sensei is cool! I'm so happy when someone does the bare minimum and respects my life and acknowledges the fact that I'm just a kid and that I'm suffering (one of) the craziest discrimination acts applied by our government Hokage...

Sakura: you know how the first real goal I got like the first thing I wanted for myself after years of being bullied and being nobody and wanting to disappear was the affection of this boy? Well, all these other girls think I don't stand a chance and that they'll get the boy, so I'm gonna win the boy and laugh at their faces. Does it mean that I need validation and affection and attention and love? Not, what are you saying, I have a perfect normal life and parents that are totally involved in my life and I am happy! So happy! I wouldn't know what sadness or loneliness is like! Never! I'm normal and totally nothing to worry about!

Sasuke: you'll find that the things you like in life are meaningless when you carry the trauma of being the sole survivor of a genocide committed by the brother you loved and adored. I want him dead which shouldn't be surprising given that we live in a society ruled by violence, right? I hate a lot of things because I'm painfully aware of how miserable our reality is. Since this is my trauma, no one else has the right to do something about it. They certainly didn't seemto have the balls to go after him, even when they call him criminal, so I'm gonna kill Itachi myself. Obsessed you said? Try enjoying life when you know someone can commit genocide and no one would give a fuck and the government won't do a thing. Try caring for others knowing they can get kill any day and you'll have to look the other way. I dare you to.

Kakashi: *most emotionally neglected adult in the village, abandoned as a kid, saw his father do the right thing and get so socially pressured he ended up commiting suicide and the government didn't give a shit, forced to become a perfect weapon at young age to show off the village strength, forced to become an elite assassin as a kid, people in the village widely making fun of his trauma and acting like he's just weird / peculiar and not on the verge of losing his mind for real, a champ at dissociation and a minute more away taking roots in front of the graves of his mistakes because he spent way too much time there in self-punishment, basically the most miserable jounin in the whole village*

Kakashi: hm, I won't let you get to know me or get close to me because everything I touch dies and I don't want to get attachments because you're soldiers and you might die and it doesn't matter that I have history with two of your families and that you all remind every single minute of the boy I watched die and the girl that I killed and the boy used to be. You will never know any of that. I am a whole man with a whole life that you'll never know because I am just your superior here and you must obey me in our missions. I'm definitely not hiding the fact that the village just failed me and set me up to be the one who failed you all in case you get killed or lose your shit once and for all.

[theheirofthesharingan]

How do you honestly feel about konoha/the shinobi system in general?

Shinobi world is a fantastic fictional world with an ancient history that gives depth to its existence. But it's not perfect, because of all the practices that go on in it. The world is dark and mysterious and has a history that is as old as time.

But it is also a broken system of child soldiers, where children killing children or even adults taking advantage of children isn't seen as a bad thing. And that's why Naruto, the main character, exists, who acknowledges how messed up the system is and how hate and love are tied together and he is too naive to understand a lot of things.

We also see the other, darker side of the Shinobi world and Konoha, both, through Sasuke and Itachi. While Naruto's world is all sunshine and green and he learns through his experiences, Itachi has already seen the worst, has done the worst, and faced their consequences. Sasuke, much like him, although in ignorance, has experienced similar things and the way he responds to injustice against himself is a reflection of how violence is embedded in the system of its people, no matter how kind and gentle they otherwise are.

Many people criticise Sasuke for wanting revenge against Konoha, but "revenge" is also the reaction of Shikamaru and Naruto and they're expected to train and kill who killed their masters.

In their world, people not only are more violent to each other than an average person, but also have a higher pain tolerance. And since the ninja world is a place everyone is trying to survive, it's not a place to find out your heroes.

The good people here will have some kind of corruption in them and the bad people will have some kind of goodness to them. And at one point there are no lines because they're all so miserable and broken that one side can do anything whether it's morally right or not.

I feel majority of the fandom uses the real world as a kind of reference to analyse and assess the Shinobi world, which is unlikely to give you a clear image, because what the author is telling you is that the world he created has no heroes. If you're going to use your own personal moral lense to view the Shinobi world and judge characters based on what you approve or disapprove, you're not going to get a clear picture of it. IMO, this is the reason there are such hypocritical takes on the characters like Sasuke and Itachi and other morally ambiguous characters.

Konoha is the same. Since it's the village we spend most time with and the narrative never acknowledgew its system is wrong, it's easier to fall in love with it. Konoha isn't worse or better than the others, in my opinion. It's just that everyone in it sounds like a hypocrite. Kakashi, for example, tells Zabuza they're better people for not making kids kill each other, but then we're introduced to the Chunin exams. We have the venerated second Hokage who experimented with the dead bodies. Hyuuga clan practices slavery. And so on.

Konoha is more powerful than the other nations because they have the right strategy and the strongest tailed beast. And they manage to hide the genocide of its people, blame the victims, driving one away to death and blaming the other for wanting justice (while advocating the same ideals for others, as I mentioned above).

It's awful to see that Koshimoto leaves the darkness of his world unattended. It could be because he needs Boruto to run, so the issues Naruto promised Sasuke would get resolved are never actually resolved. He's probably uninterested. It should probably frustrate me more, but I think when I finished Naruto, I had expected this more or less. And it's been a long time since Manga ended (even it's been long enough for anime), so frustration isn't going to change anything.

[bananaman-mp3]

[ID: A screenshot of a reblog with the blog's url and profile picture scribbled outin red that reads: "...conditionally and only if you never disagree with them? O.o"

the tags underrneath read: "#it never stops baffling me #how fandom turned these two into some idea of love #when the story is literall Naruto obsessign over Sasuke who is not interrsted #and then beating him almost to death because Sasuke doesn't think genocide is good pooitcal move actually #like FFS pls read more mangas people" End ID]

are you serious... if naruto only loved him conditionally why did he risk everything to save him, even when everyone else was set on killing him for being a traitor to konoha?

the guy threw his dignity away, in the eyes of everyone, to defend public enemy #1

he always called sasuke his friend, he never stated that he would only consider him a friend only if he returned as a konoha ninja.

loves him conditionally my ass.

and like- the idea that naruto can only love people that never disagree with him is so fundamentally against his character it's almost comical. if that were true naruto wouldve simply killed nagato. he wouldn't have tried to understand him or talk him out of it the way he did, once he heard his story. he wouldn't have tried talking to obito either. or even neji, konohamaru and inari, as small as those moments look in comparison.

the obsession part would make more sense, given how much he thought about him and wanted him back, to the point even his friends and the girl who was in love with sasuke thought it was too much.

yet the part about naruto beating sasuke up is... weird. they do realize naruto was fighting him because sasukes idea of a revolution meant to martyr himself for the sake of peace, the way his brother did, right?

they do realize that sasuke wanted to kill him at that point too, right? that it wasn't naruto beating a defenseless sasuke, right?

if anything, naruto was leaning on the defensive side and sasuke was the one trying to beat him up. but the were pretty fucking tied in terms of power. thats why he came close to killing sasuke (and viceversa. stop treating sasuke like a weakling.)

now, that doenst mean naruto is completely in the right to simply undermine or ignore konohas wrongdoing just because it only fuels the cycle of violence. naruto himself is victim of konohas shit system, and he has acknowledged many of the problems it caused. he promised to nagato that hed help amegakure when he became hokage.

of course you could argue that narutos methods may not be as effective for change as sasukes more aggressive plan, since systemic change is rarely if ever achievable by working within it. but im not that good with politics so i dont think im the best to talk about it, and that already goes beyond the topic here.

sasukes violent reaction to konohas mistreatment of the uchiha was completely understandable and anyone in his place wouldve don the same. lets make that clear here. i think saying he was highly justified is not a controversial take, at least here. konoha and the shinobi system ARE fucked up.

also, love that 'sasuke is not interested' bit. op, why did sasuke want to kill naruto? tell me.

me when im not interested:

so yeah i think that's a pretty inaccurate take on sasukes feelings towards naruto.

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

What would be your ideal ending for Sasuke ?

In one word, anon, justice. I really don’t care a lot about everything else. If he marries or has children, if he wins or loses the fight with Naruto, if he goes travelling or whatever. The least he deserved was justice and reparation, and he got nothing of that.

Sasuke deserved an ending where his rage was validated. Where he received a formal apology. Where the genocide of the Uchiha was not swept under the rug (if the wishes of Itachi were to be respected, at least acknowledge the oppression and exclusion that they suffered from Konoha and clear their name from the suspicions raised after the Kyubi attack). Sasuke should have not been forced to show remorse in the end. Remorse for what, anyway? He had nothing to feel sorry for, he did nothing wrong. He didn’t even punish half the people that deserved to die at his hands. What does he need to atone for, when deranged villains went on without consequences? Sasuke was a victim of genocide. The least the perpetrators could do was apologise and be thankful he didn’t materialise any of his threats to burn Konoha to ashes.

Sasuke deserved to see the two counsellors that remained alive fired, prosecuted and punished. He deserved to be honoured and awarded for saving the world and for his crucial role in ending the war, and all he got was ostracism and a condescending scolding from his former teacher.

Sasuke deserved compensation. He deserved to see his clan honoured and remembered. He deserved to get returned any property, document, or information Konoha had gotten from the Uchiha after the massacre or during their unlawful surveillance, including any body parts or any other thing stolen for any of Danzo’s grotesque endeavours. He deserved to see the Root disbanded, any of its willing members investigated and punished, and Danzo declared a traitor, a child abductor, a genocidal trash, a corrupt and a conspirator.

Sasuke deserved to see his friend, his so-called “like a brother” standing by his promises and doing something to change the world for the better. Sasuke did not deserve to be alone and remorseful working for a place that never officially repudiated the darkness and the ways of the past. Sasuke did not deserve to see the enabler of the extermination of his family glorified in the form of a painting in the Hokage’s office. And the same for the fascist that spread racist pseudoscience about his family to justify their segregation and oppression. He did not deserve to see those that promoted the genocide of his clan working as counsellor for his so-called friend, who still hears them in his office.

And, of course, Sasuke deserved Taka, too. He deserved to be with them, to honour the promise he made to Jugo. Their unconditional loyalty and friendship. He deserved comfort in the friends that he chose and that were ready to fight the world for him.

And, I think, anon, Sasuke deserved to pursue his revolutionary ideas to build a new world without the darkness of the Shinobi system. Sasuke did not deserve to have all his personality, his character and his soul killed for the sake of the main character’s victory. We know the main character had to win, still, there was so much potential in Sasuke. We deserved to at least see them improving the world together. Making efforts so the future generations never had to experience what they went through.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant, I don’t think I surprised you with any amazing idea for an ending, as everything I mentioned has been discussed before by many others. I apologise also because it took me ages to answer.  I hope you are having a wonderful time, anon, please take care.

[bunniefaery]

I saw this article calling Sasuke a Villain and how the live-action shouldn't include his "villain" arc, because it "felt tedious and too convoluted to the bigger narrative" and instead they should make him a pivot for the fight against the Otsutsuki...

Did this person watch the anime or read the manga?

Article from CBR, Title: The Naruto Live-Action Movie Doesn't Need To Adapt This Villain Arc

1. Protect Konoha from what? The Uchiha wanted to end the decades long discrimination and oppression they were facing at the hands of the higher ups... (Not to mention that when Kurama attacked the village (under genjutsu, when Naruto was born), and during the konoha crush, no other villages went to attack the Leaf after the events), not even after the Pein arc...

2. Most people would hate growing up alone, and why was that sentence in bold?

3. Sasuke didn't find out about the true reason Itachi did what he did, until after Itachi died, as well as the real reason behind said Coup... as far as I am aware. And why wouldn't he want revenge against Konoha (specifically the 3 people who are left that caused all of his trauma and the uchiha genocide, it'd be 4 but the Sandaime Hokage was already dead by this point in the story)

4. What "wars" against Madara and Obito? There was only 1 War against them, the 4th great ninja war, that lasted 2 days a.k.a. approximately ~212 episodes, including filler (volumes 55 through 59 in the Manga, according to google)

"Naruto and Sasuke were reincarnations of her sons (Ashura and Indra, respectively)"

Okay, so the author didn't watch nor read Naruto...

Indra and Ashura Otsutsuki are not Kaguya's sons... they are her grandsons 👁️👄👁️ Homura and Hagoromo Otsutsuki are her sons... and Hagoromo is Ashura and Indra's father…

I feel like the author doesn't know much about Kaguya either, if they did they'd know her story.

"The advantage of Sasuke being a rebel without defecting from Konoha is that Naruto would have the help needed to fight the big villains of the franchise: the Ōtsutsuki."

When the time came, was Sasuke not helping Naruto with that? 🧐 And why shouldn't he have defected from Konoha? What good could they do for him?

Why does Sasuke need to be convinced to return home, when his home was taken from him by this "home" the author speaks of, that "home" being Konoha? Why should he return to the place that treated his people so poorly that they felt they no other choice but to do a coup against the people in charge of Konoha only to be wiped out for daring to stand up for themselves after years of oppression...?

Konoha, specifically Danzo, the third hokage, and 2 hogake advisors, Homura and Koharu (3 of which where Tobirama Senju's students and all 4 of which were on his personal team, and we all know what Tobi thought of the Uchiha) forced Itachi to wipeout his whole clan, excluding Sasuke, and then blamed him for it. They swept what they did under a filthy rug, that already had many skeletons piling up, and acted like he was the most evil person... He was a child and he was forced to do that and to become a fugitive by the old people in charge, who had no business being in charge of Konoha since there should've been a 5th Hokage by then... (regardless if Itachi regretted it or not, which he never really does)

I won't say it...😇

"Sasuke could learn more about how Indra developed a dark side, which passed down to the Uchiha, while Ashura's light gave way to the Senju and Uzumaki (Naruto's family) clans"

1. While I do agree that Naruto should've learnt more of the Uzumaki (and the Namikaze), besides finding out they excelled in Sealing Jutsus, had very long lives and were a bit savage (it wasn't in-depth at all, and there is no one to teach him, since the Uzumaki are also victims of genocide (in which Konoha did not help protect them) and well, I don't know what happened to Minato's people)

2. And that Sasuke should've learnt more of his people (but how was he going to, when he was the only one left at age 7/8?)

3. Indra's dark side... it wasn't passed down, nor did it emerge until his father gave his little brother the title of successor and expected him to follow without questions, having his birthright taken away because he was more introverted than his little brother whom their father called "the flunky useless dropout younger brother" (according to a panel I saw). And implied, at least to me, that ninjustu was created for wars and all things evil (Indra created ninjustu when he was just a child). ah yes his dark side the Uchiha inherited, that darkness of wanting to be treated like people and with respect in the village they helped make.

4. Kushina calls the Uzumaki, among other things, a bit savage. Batsuma Senju punched Hashirama, a child at the time, for being angry/sad that his little brother died, saying he was disrespecting his brother (and him) by basically questioning the system. Tobirama is a Senju, who was not shy about his hatred and prejudice against the Uchiha Clan (he is after all the founder of the bigoted psuedo science that was the "Curse of Hatred" the Uchiha are supposedly afflicted by, a clan that according to him is cursed and called Sasuke "a brat possessed by Uchiha evil") and that's on Ashura's "light" that gave way for his descendants, the Uzumaki and the Senju, "a clan of love~"🥰

Right, because he wasn't a pivot to the story, nor did his and naruto's story have any "heart and impact"... Right...

At some point, I wonder if some of this article is just satire 😅

[bimgtt]

One thing is even if naruto acknowledged itachi's words not bearing everything alone that doesn't matter to Sasuke bc naruto is align with the system, like him also his friends they are blinded by WOF of Konoha, so they can't understand why Sasuke's revolution is important

Sasuke understands that the ninja system and missions based on usage of warfare, spying and proxy wars and WOF created autocratic blind and extreme nationalism like hokage's words are final laws who can change anything on a whim or may not reform anything from past hokage's mistakes as their blind amoral loyalist nationalism refrain them for any reform the best examples are

Hiruzen who did not reform anything for uchiha or Naruto who still teaches children endure and die for the village bc they are your family, child soldiers custom, unnecessary chunin exam ,

so for these reason sasuke can't align himself with these villages bc they have different types of ultra nationalist propaganda like WoF from Konoha, WoR from Iwa etc. where you can't choose different ways of life even if those ways of yours are harmless to the overall village population and you can't follow or advocate your ways bc corrupt and prejudiced and autocratic kage and elders will not let you go against any custom of shinobi as you just have to act and endure like a blind loyal tool without no question according to those kage and elders otherwise you will be executed or marginalized in your respective village even accept being bullied and shunned and hatred from villagers for their war trauma scapegoat like mainly kekegenkai clans and jinchurikii , you have to endure oppression from shinobi system and its shinobi and kage bc enduring for greater good and greater goals means being ninja that lies being align with the village where you can't advocate individual or certain group rights otherwise you will be targeted by corrupt and fascist and nationalist and autocratic people like Onoki, Danzo, Raikage, tobirama, Hiruzen and konoha elders and Suna elders, Kurotsuchi etc. who will do anything to maintain their respective village hegemony many examples in the whole naruto series for such these scenarios and mindsets and principle values for examples:

1.rin dying for greater of the village without relying on kakashi as she is blindly indoctrinated from the childhood even kakashi in the waves arc saying how "we" as shinobi are

2. Itachi being indoctrinated with blind nationalism of WOF which clouded his moral judgement and couldn't help him saying how segregation and confinement to one job were dangerous policy from authority and pure injustice for Uchiha and then daily bad words from villagers, even tho Uchiha also suffered so much from wars and missions and invasions

3. Sakumo hatake's suicide, amegakure and small villages being pillaged, naruto being shunned, jinchuriki practice, zabusa and haku's yuki caln genocide, uchiha clan genocide, iatchi and shisui immoral spying on their own people, neji's father death, hyuga slavery and curse, Madara being ostracized by tobirama from being hokage bc of sharaingan power without given any chance and proof for at least as beginner, child soldiers practice, immoral anbu spying practice, supressing your emotions for missions, glorifying your ancestors as Gods and WOF like propaganda without knowing their bad sides and betraying or opposing and leaving village means death, hokage's words and judgement are constitution no one can oppose, covering uo genocide, grooming and indoctrinated child soldiers in exteme belief of WoF propaganda like itachi, shikimaru, rin, naruto etc. and so on

Sasuke knew most of the people live in this shinobi framework which destined to bring disaster and inhuman and injustice to certain groups of people and individuals and disagreeing to opposition and different views where change and reform can't be possible in the long run as they all are in village circle blinded by this propaganda and shinobi system which is casuing child soldiers practice, jinchuriki practice, various tragedy, bullying, mass killing, genocide, systematic and direct oppression, cycle of hatred among clans, individuals and villages in the shinobi frame work, for the sole reason why Sasuke have to be alone for his revolution bc whole shinobi worlds are blinded by shinobi customs and propaganda in shinobi framework or shinobi system

So to cure the darkness that shinobi system created without time to time reform or fact checking, Sasuke have to be alone bc everyone is blinded by the system and stupid enduring meaning of the shinobi, so revolution is important no bloody it is bc people alrady died bc of this blind nationalist system that created only violence after violence down the line, either you maintain and judge it with impartial executioner like Sasuke or abandons this fascist and stop being ninja,

Being alone is necessary for Sasuke's revolution bc all of the shinobi people are blinded by shinobi village system, even in peace time child soldier still in practice where children still taught in ninja academy about fighting but not history of its dark side, in konoha shinden mirai still glorifies 3rd hokage without knowing his dirty secret and many house women talking about their children being in ninja academy but why chidren needs to go to ninja academy or shinobi missions only adults can go as it is peace time meaning nor kakashi nor naruto did not change a thing still practicing child soldier shinobi custom, bc of this non changing mindset of shinobi from these villages which is why Sasuke has to bear his Revolution alone so he could slowly uprooted it little by little and thus he can completely change the past of this shinobi village system no he will slowly destroy it to the core until shinobi start to live like normal civilian people so past will be totally transformed slowly

For sole reason why sasuke has to bear darkness alone in his revolution as darkness of the village causes proxy and cold wars or genocide or cycle of hatred, personal tragedy, brainwashing people immorally etc. which causes more and great war geopolitically down the line in the shinobi world and why changing the past of the shinobi system is necessary as everyone is blinded by the system

so in easy term sasuke has to do his revolution solely alone to be impartial as everyone is blinded by the system and behaves like blind brainwashed tool where no will understand his point how dangerous they have become under shinobi system and by becoming a darkness that darkness that shinobi system has been using for its villages hegemony and its interest and to destroy the past that current shinobi system has been based upon that caused so many inhuman acts and injustice that made everyone blind and ignorant to the truth and humanity and created paradoxical aspect in its nature and core

[leportraitducadavre]

How do you feel about Haku and Zabuza, and what was introduced in the Land of Waves that contained elements of genocide and the purging of the Hidden Mist? I'm just curious to know your thoughts on them and the structure the first arc provided

Haku introduced something that was later deepened with Sasuke's character and story. While Haku's experience is similar to Sasuke's, both contexts differ in that Haku knew from a young age the persecution of people like him (and his mother), while the discrimination of the Uchiha clan was much more specific as it was focused on one particular family.

The first arc introduces such matters, yet it does little to bring light to Konoha's particular case, which will become the plot's main focus later on. While it's established that Tobirama was the one that created the bureaucratic system that Konoha follows and which was used as a model for the rest,

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each village's relationship with kekkei genkai users varies, although every single one persecuted or discriminated against those with such techniques.

Kekkei Genkai are feared -therefore, those who possess them are persecuted/killed. While what he says is solely linked to Mist, the weariness towards those with such bloodlines is clearly universal as these individuals possessed the most "natural advantages" for combat out of most (likely, hidden techniques were created for a similar purpose).

Tobirama’s reason for discriminating against the Uchiha was because of how their doujutsu developed and evolved, and nothing of his weariness was overcome by those who came after him, as we see Haku, from another village and generation, suffering the consequences of a fear born on the Warring State Era. Kakashi is particularly accepted because he has the Sharingan but not the blood/chakra of a Uchiha as he’s not part of the bloodline.

Furthermore, Sasuke is directly mentioned in the exchange, Naruto even links Haku’s words to Sasuke’s goal: To kill someone (Itachi who killed his clan because of the fear they installed in the power-ups: they were accused and punished for controlling the Kyuubi without a shred of single evidence, Itachi even canonically states later on that there’s “no hope for this clan” meaning, those who carry the bloodline).

Haku's admission of feeling lonely and unwanted can be directly reflected in Sasuke's character and it's a comparison that Naruto makes for himself; all three children were shunned and abandoned for something they had no control over nor chose to have, and there's a system that not only turns a deaf ear to such issues but also encourages it.

There’s an interaction between Tazuna and Kakashi, where Kakashi mentions that a previous Hokage (we aren’t told whom) taught his people to “fight for what is right”, selling the idea to the civilian in front of him that his hidden village (specifically) is the “good” side against the “evil” side (Zabuza, Gato -even other hidden villages). However, this particular speech of Kakashi, which he gives solely to Tazuna and not to his subordinates (who, by Tazuna’s standards are children), clashes with the prior idea that “missions’ feuds are high and we do what we are paid to do” (assassinations or babysitting). Meaning: there’s a narrative to be told to civilians to shape their view of shinobi (particularly Konoha’s), and the actual reality that only Team 7 (as ninjas), gets to see.  In addition, during Kakashi’s second fight against Zabuza (CH 30), Kakashi states that Konoha (therefore, he), knows about the swordsman’s attempt to coup and kill the current Mizukage -alongside his wish to raise funds to attempt another coup after his failure. We learned previously thanks to Haku’s background that there’s a bloodline cleansing currently happening in Mist; a genocide on such a large scale can’t be kept secret that long -furthermore, there’s no indication that the murders are happening quietly either since those who possessed Kekkei Genkai were pushed to hide their bloodline; and if Konoha knows about Zabuza and his attempt to take over the government, then they surely know about the reasons behind it.  What I mean by this is what follows: Kakashi and Konoha claim that they fight for “the right thing” to those civilians they encounter, but do nothing -neither military nor diplomatically, to stop those massacres from occurring (nor do they take a stance against them either, as it reduces Mist numbers and weakens their military power). They’re still pretty much in touch with the Mizukage that carried out/ordered such killings, for his government was the one that told Konoha about Zabuza’s attempted coup when declaring him rogue. 

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The first arc is a great introductory arc; it establishes the notion of blood cleansing, discrimination, how shinobi fight for whoever pays their feeds, how uncomfortable many are with the idea of being tools, who the main characters in the dispute are (Naruto and Sasuke) and upon which ground they stand to carry out their respective actions against the system that aggravated them.

Naruto, even by the end of the arc, never disputed the idea of moving to reach his goal outside Konoha's system, as he never stated he wanted to stop being a ninja:

We are also shown how shinobi who go against the system are considered rogue (Zabuza), so Naruto stating that he'll create his own ninja path (fighting alongside the system) automatically puts Sasuke, who'll become the antagonist, outside that political bubble, turning him into a missing-nin.

I really like this arc and I'm glad it's the first one, I don't think it's the best one in the manga as many inside the fandom claim.

[thrashersasuke]

i rlly do think i’m fully entering back to my 2018-2019 naruto extreme hyperfixation phase where i am on the point of being like a little crazy about it maybe a lil delusional (fr) but it actually makes me shake with anger when ppl completely don’t understand wtf i’m saying especially about sasuke. like the whole post was about how the land of the waves arc was a SET UP to SHOW LATER ON how sasuke is a character who is COMPLETELY ABOUT LOVE. the love for his clan and family drives him to orochimaru, not hate. it’s the entire point why he leaves to kill itachi. because he Loves his family and clan, and itachi implemented that in order to get revenge on him would to live in hatred. maybe he hated his brother (valid obviously) but the whole reason he is suffering from such tremendous sadness and loneliness and grief and why he Feels So much about itachi is because of the love he HAS for family clan etc (even itachi..) love as a central point of his character is shown when he doesn’t kill naruto in vote1. sasuke knows that the one way (according to itachi) to get the power to kill him is to kill his best friend and sasuke Doesnt. he Can’t and actively tries not to. leaving in the middle of the night, trying to make naruto go away at the very beginning. he doesn’t want to leave the leaf he doesn’t want to leave naruto specifically but he feels like he has to. and this carries into the other point being besties with orochimaru…? WHEN?????????? he is manipulated from the very first time orochimaru sees him. he gives him the curse mark because he knows he wants to kill itachi. when orochimaru and kabuto say that they have to separate naruto and sasuke cuz “the nine tails boy is changing sasukes heart and mind”. when he sends his sound ninja after sasuke in the end of naruto. sasuke is so distraught about leaving team 7 and the last push is when the sound ninja like beat him up and are basically like “u want power right? to kill YOUR BROTHER right???” and he goes. he’s manipulated by powers outside of his control, he’s 13!!!! and even then. LIKE SHIPPUDEN?? WHEN HE LITERALLY TELLS OROCHIMARU HE DOESNT NEED HIM ANYMORE and that what orochimaru does to ppl and what he was going to do to him DISGUSTS HIM “i don’t like your style, you sicken me” ?!?!? HOW IS THAT BESTIES he KILLS orochimaru. ig they team up later on, but that’s only when orochimaru is “different” (i hate orochimaru still but whatever) and sasuke doesn’t gaf because his goal is to see if he should really destroy the leaf village because uhhhhhh like. well they committed a genocide against his entire people and have actively ostracizing them and oppressing them basically since tobiramas term as hokage so like. do i even need to explain how sasuke was completely right in his hatred for the leaf? for the “peace” everyone was so blissfully (and ignorantly) living in was from the massacre of an entire group of ppl SASUKES PEOPLE. like DO I NEED TO REALLY TALK ABOUT HOW ALL HIS FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT ARE 100% JUSTIFIED? i won’t cuz it’ll make this post super long (more than it already is) but yeah. OMFG. DONT SPEAK ABOUT SASUKE IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HIM especially not on my posts IDGAF IM CRAZY

[bonefall]

naruto as a whole is a fucking mess and i say thisas somebody whos read the entireseries 3 times over. “naruto is going to change the system! haha teehee never mind hes not doing anytning about the child soldiers and slave castes and the genocides.” “sasuke can be upset at his brother for committing a genocide but actually genocide against an oppressed bloodline is good if theyre getting uppity and its sanctioned by the government and also have a genetic predisposition to be evil so he should just get over it and be okay with it” “sakura needs to stop obsessing over a guy whos not even interested and become strong for her own sake. actually shes a housewife now”

kishimoto im going to blow you up with my mind

YOU GET IT

For real though I think what they did with Sasuke's arc was one of the most baffling fucking things I've ever seen. "Actually. Your brother who carried out a genocide loved you :( he only put you in the Torment Nexus for several days because uhhh he wanted you to hate him and not find out about the government who ordered it. Everything he ever did was actually to protect you. And Uchihas are actually kinda rotten anyway so it's good an entire GROUP OF PEOPLE died. Don't think about any babies or children who were also slaughtered btw uhh nope all of them were bad."

Sasuke: "Yes I understand. I will now rule the world through fear. Actually nvm Naruto won our fight so, my philosophy is gone now."

Thank goodness that Evil Sasuke killed the three Bad Government Officials before that point, though. We had this whole theme going about toxic structures, cycles of abuse, and how oppressive regimes can propagate themselves even when a leader is well-meaning... but, like, Naruto REALLY wants to be Hokage, so actually if you just kill these Three Bad Governors it's gonna be fine.

There is no need for systemic change. Slave castes and child soldiers are fine. It's ok as long as the president is blonde :)

[theuchihalawyer]

do you think Itachi's plotwist (him being a good guy) resulted in many characters getting ruined/hate ? ( Sasuke/ Hiruzen/ Tobirama/ the dead Uchiha clan..)

Personally, I don't think Itachi was a good guy for what he did, I mean, do you really think Itachi commiting ethnic genocide ordered by the village that oppressed them, because of a coup that was plotted because of the discrimination and xenophobia the Uchiha clan suffered for decades, was him being a good guy?

Well, doesn't look like a good guy to me, but then I'd be writing another essay, and I think you meant the way some people view him, so I'll go to the point.

Tobirama and Hiruzen, both were still dictators on the facist regime of Konoha, with or without the massacre. That's no news, I mean, plenty of hate is deserved.

They were already "ruined" and received a lot of hate, before the plot twist was even known. So the result was still the same with or without it, I think the only change is that the hate got even worse – but it was always there.

Maybe this is unnecessary, but I'll start with Hiruzen and a few examples:

Hiruzen was hated from the beginning. We knew he was "neglecting" Naruto and letting him get ostracized for something he didn't even chose to, suffering his whole childhood alone, and being shunned. He failed Naruto:

Hiruzen talks and talks about that he wants to protect the village and that they're their family (during Konoha Crush, though he treated that family like tools as he spoke, so not much to expect) but he couldn't even protect a kid, couldn't even give him a caretaker, someone to look for him, support him, raise him right, he wasn't even that person. He claims to care greatly for Minato, but he didn't even look after his son properly. He didn't even accomplish Naruto parents's wishes.

Gosh, Naruto lacked so much attention that he tried to gain it by committing mischief and his whole objective of being Hokage is needing acknowledgment, validation, respect. He didn't had the proper guidance. He had a house, so? That doesn't even make up for what he really needed. He stopped committing mischief after Iruka recognized him!

Keeping a secret that Naruto was a sacrifice for the village and was the Kyuubi from Naruto and those children, did more harm than good to Naruto. Hiruzen saw the consequences right in front of him and decided to let Naruto be treated that awful way. Also, people often say that Naruto "respected" Hiruzen despite him being neglected by him, but he solely respected Hiruzen sacrifice for the village, nothing more, nothing less. His sacrifice shouldn't even be glorified, Hiruzen should've killed Orochimaru when he had the chance, and during Hiruzen's death, Sunagakure and Otogakure had already attacked Konoha, causing massive losses and destroying it.

Hiruzen wasn't even that relevant in Naruto's life, not once he thinks about him when he talks about the people who helped him through his loneliness. (The one he mostly thinks about first is Iruka)

+ He also failed Sasuke, but then I'd be involving the massacre.

Second example: Orochimaru.l + Hiruzen said Orochimaru concealed malice and ambition, but he trained him to be a very powerful and capable shinobi, pretending not to notice Orochimaru's malice. And also Hiruzen sent him to war: and Orochimaru had to witness Nawaki and Dan death, he had to see the horrors of war, and that war also led him to want to learn every technique in the world, which culminanted on his experiments and who he ended up becoming and what he ended up doing + his parents death also affected him deeply, etc. (I'm not defending Orochimaru actions, I think he didn't deserve redemption at all, I'm just talking about of Hiruzen failing as a teacher and Hokage)

Orochimaru was kidnapping, torturing, murdering and experimenting with innocent people and Hiruzen HAD to kill him because Orochimaru said he wasn't going to stop until he found out the secrets of immortality and mastered all the jutsus he could, I didn't include the panel of this, but he said:

I want to obtain all the techniques and gain a true understanding of everything in this world. The first one to mix blue and yellow called the new color "green". I want to do something similar to that. If blue is the chakra, then yellow is the seal, and green is the technique... Just as there is no end to the variety of colors, there are so many thousands… tens of thousands of techniques in the world as well. But in order to obtain every possible technique and truth, it would require an eternity. Only one who understands everything after spending such time on this can be fittingly called the Ultimate Being.

Hiruzen could've avoided many deaths, many conflicts, many experiments, many kidnappings, many things. But no, he couldn't bring himself to kill Orochimaru and allowed him to escape. (Orochimaru was literally KILLING and TORTURING and EXPERIMENTING with innocent people, so the justification of that Orochimaru was his student so he couldn't kill him is just so horrendous and repulsive, like, look at Hashirama, he had to take Madara's life, his best friend, for the village + even Jiraiya was determinated and willing to kill Tsunade if she healed Orochimaru because then, Konoha would be in great danger)

No more words needed.

Third example: The Hyuga clan.

Hiruzen clearly knew that the Hyuga clan dysfunction, that they endorsed slavery, the seal, the main house and branch house not being equals, the oppression. He let it continue.

He claims that he wants to protect the village and the people on it, but he failed again to protect the cadet branch who lived to serve the main branch and were below them, oppressed, being treated unfairly, being sealed and only being able to be free of the seal by dying. He could've changed the way it worked, but he decided not to. ALSO, HE LET NEJI AND HINATA FIGHT AND HE THOUGHT IT WAS ENTERTAINING. He knew Neji was from the cadet branch, and Hinata was from the main branch, but no.

The hypocrisy of this man is incredible.

I can give more examples, but I'll end it here with Hiruzen.

Now, Tobirama.

Well, now, Tobirama, the one that created Edo Tensei:

He's not too far from Orochimaru, you know, using people as sacrifices to experiment and make those deceased people killing machines for his own benefit. Such repulsive jutsu.

Tobirama also oppressed the Uchiha clan, democracy became nonexistent in Konoha after he succeeded and created the ninja institution for the kids – the chunin exams; training children become tools to kill and sacrifice for the village. 12, more or less, year old children killing each other to be promoted on their military status..well. Need to elaborate?

And yeah, the Uchiha clan gets hate because of that one plot twist – hate that is undeserved. But that hate is from people who refuse to acknowledge what the clan went through, Sasuke's trauma, how a coup works, etc, either that, or are actually Itachi apologists.