#what marius did with armand was just abuse because armand did not want it and said no the entiiiire time. just to be pavloved afterwards

[collegeboysam]

one of the most upsetting details of the scene where marius whips armand in his book is not only the violence and abuse, but also what marius does afterwards. armand is crying and begging him to stop the entire time, he hates what's happening, but only by the end marius puts his blood on the wounds he left on armand, which he knows is pleasurable for humans. armand hated the punishment, he did not want it, but marius forces him to enjoy it at the end by giving him something armand can't help but like because of the effect vampire's blood has on humans. marius is conditioning armand to think he likes the whipping by giving him his blood only after being so vicious he opens wounds on armand's skin. he's basically doing stimuli based pavlov mindfuckery with armand. i want to strangle marius until he's foaming at the mouth.

[loumandism]

can everyone walk with me for a moment please. the writer’s room has set up armand’s redemption, his true understanding and love for another individual, to come through benji so perfectly. what armand experienced—and what has always been a core part of my understanding of his characterization—was both a personal and systematic decimation of his culture and people. he’s comparable to a survivor of genocide with what european colonizers did to the indian population and i do think so much of Why he wants to survive is because he’s surviving for so many other people. not just names we know, like Riccardo, but names we don’t, that he doesn’t, because they have been lost. were erased. benji is an explicitly palestinian character who was trafficked and forced into a caretaker role by an abusive white family, and I’m thinking in the timeline of the show it could be very likely he was displaced during the settlement expansion into sheikh jarrah in 2021 (bc he is from Jerusalem in the books, albeit in a different time period).

both of them were trafficked, displaced, and survived a genocide, and it is so rare for armand to look into someone’s eyes and see the horror he has been through be reflected, but i think it really is in benji. and for once armand could really feel the need to *protect* something, it’s just one life, but he failed claudia specifically because she reminded him of everything he was and everything he couldn’t be, but he’s given another chance in benji. i’m thinking specifically about colonial understandings of manhood as reflected in their two characters (everyone read uncle give me a cigarette by walid daqqah)—benji forces himself, *has been forced*, to be mature, grown, as Adult as a 12 y/o can be. but armand’s childhood was stolen from him, and he retains a boyishness. in this way both of them could be jealous of the other—eternal child longing to be a man and eternal man longing to have the solace of childhood—but there is still such a deep resonance they can have with each other because of this.

so for marius to hurt benji, benji, who is a reflection of arun, or who arun was, or all of armand’s identities really, absolutely has the opportunity to be armand’s true wakeup call IF the writer’s room has the guts to tackle all of the implications of benji’s character head on. especially if they keep marius’ obsession with the “saving of the west”. armand seems to think he deserves white supremacist and sexual violence, but benji? is exactly who he seeks to protect. and it could be so beautiful and so powerful and so poignant to allow armand and benji this moment of realization and reconciliation and the rejection of violence they’ve been told is natural for them to receive. this is by far my biggest wish for the show.

[iwtv-theories]

How Iwtv may adapt “the vampire Armand” (theory)

Tw: given Armand’s trauma.

I personally don’t think a whole season will be dedicated to adapt tva. But, I do believe a subplot of his past will be developed over multiple seasons through flashbacks and other writing devices . We already have a new Indian writer hired for the show - who wrote a play about living in a brothel . so we’ll most likely dive more into his past and trauma . it’s also foreshadowed that Armand will eventually tell Daniel his story- similar to how Louis and Lestat did. Armand already told Daniel a (probably not quite accurate) depiction of his past with the children of Satan . And Armand saying to Daniel: “Do you want to hear my story? My first memory…” (could foreshadow he’ll eventually tell Daniel his entire story ).

But, given the nature of Armand’s past I assume a lot of scenes will be portrayed by Assad, and some scenes by a younger looking adult actor, along with darker scenes being verbally stated (similar to Claudia verbally recounting her trauma with Bruce, to Louis). But … I also believe that by the end of Armand’s story a huge “bomb” or several “revelations” will be revealed as Daniel asks “a few follow up questions.” Which indicate Marius is even worse than Armand openly admits or realizes. It would be similar to how Daniel at the end of s2, points out discrepancies in Louis’ story (that re-contextualize everything) .

I think Armand will have been turned as an adult, but I believe it’ll be revealed that Armand was younger in his past than the flashbacks indicate. Similar to how certain passages of Armand’s book made him seem much younger than what he claimed to be . In Armand’s own flashbacks he’d be a “BOY masquerading as a gentleman" (even deceiving the audience into thinking he was older). PS, the next things I mention are either from the books or show canon.

Daniel : “just some follow up questions. Your FIRST memory was being chased down by slavers , so you were young… you had to be only 3 or 4 then? No wonder you aren’t positive of your birth name. I ask cause you said you said you were 15 when Marius saved you from the brothel, right? But, you told me that the night he bought and made a move on you that you were “too young for wet pleasure“ - and then 2 years later that was no longer the case . So you’re saying you only started puberty at 17 years old? Are you sure you weren’t closer to Benji’s age when some of this stuff happened ?” (Benji is Armand’s 12 y foster son who was previously abused and trafficked) .

Daniel: “you told me in 2022 that you were a 514 year old vampire . So you were born in 1508? You said you were 20 years old  when ‘adoration of the shepherds’ was made. But historians say the painting was commissioned between 1520-1525. So you'd have been somewhere between the ages of 12-17 when he 'donated' you to his friends ."

Daniel: “ I don’t know how to say this, but… are you sure the other young boys (that lived with Marius ) didn’t get donated to his artist friends too? Those boys were being trained as painters and hanging out with Marius’ ilk all the time . They may have had a hard time saying no to Marius’ requests , as well. You even said there were rumors of 'bad boys' being 'banished’ from the house ‘immediately' , for saying disrespectful things about Marius. When you first met Ricardo and he painted you , why did he cry ,throw the paint brush and say“ a very different picture master has in mind for you.” Was he warning you that being painted by someone isn’t as nice as it seems? If Marius wasn’t with the other boys -why did he make all of them show their ankles because ‘to him the ankles of boys were beautiful’. Why were those young boys already experimenting with each other , going to brothels and hanging out with courtesans for fun, and teaching you how to read by showing you “frightening books about men and women in carnality.” Aren’t those all signs that they were exposed to that stuff way too early ?! Marius made you go to brothels to ‘train you’ to be better at bedding men and women. And when you were a kid, you said Marius took you to a “ luxurious house of pleasure", which kept … "only young boys.” You even said that , this boys-house was “Eastern styled” and that the boys looked “Egyptian or Babylonian" . He even bought a couch from that establishment. Are you sure he wasn’t a regular customer there ? Armand… I don’t think he bought you to 'rescue you from the brothel'. He bought you because you looked like the boys from his favorite establishment! And at Marius’ house, the first thing those boys did when they met you was say they “loved you” and wink… are you sure they weren’t taught to do that with all house guests? Are you sure Marius' palazzo wasn't just a high-end brothel of young boys?"

Armand describing Marius' palazzo...

Never forget Marius tried to marry pandora when she was 10 !That man is a repeat offender! I don’t trust Marius at all! idc if all the vamps in the books (or even AR respected him) . All my homies hate marius! And I feel like the show may re-contextualize some of those very questionable details sprinkled in the books , that were never addressed . I think the show will make Marius even worse than the books ! Iwtv writers tweeting: “Kendrick Lamar releases Marius diss track.” And in s2 Louis straight up says Marius “groomed” Armand. I don’t think, they’ll shy away from his questionable actions … but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the vamps initially fall for his charisma/wisdom (similar to how he garners respect from other vamps in the novels) . Similar to how a lot of abusers are often loved and respected by their peers. It was Marius after all that initially taught Amadeo how to 'lie' better. Not to mention (Marius' age and and drinking from Akasha would make ) his mind-gift and ability to control minds MUCH stronger than Armand's too . Which could (theoretically) have some scary narrative implications for the future... Daniel run before he tries to mess with your head .

[dreadfuldevotee]

I'd like to discuss the elephant in the room. Why did we get zero Loumand sex scenes? We got hints and implications, but season 1 was pretty explicit. Do we think that that's a creative choice or something else is happening?

I'm glad I ended up ruminating on this for about a week because episode 7 & 8 really solidified my opinion on it.

I do wanna start by saying that it's very clear to me that there was supposed to be more explicit scenes between them. There has been some thoughts tossed around that censorship happened with the 9 pm timeslot (as opposed to the 10 pm timeslot of S1). I believed this hearing Assad and Jacob talk about the BDSM dynamic between Louis and Armand, but what really sold me on this was Production Designer Mara LePere-Schloop talking about the bedroom set and more specifically about their beautifully carved custom headboard. (If you're a production nerd like me or just want to know more about the design philosophy of IWTV I recommend giving the entire thing a listen!).

I think there are several reasons I think as to why they decided to leave any more explicit scenes on the cutting room floor but above them all is: you cannot separate Armand's sexuality from his abuse. I am really against pulling a "well if you read the books" card but reading just the first couple chapters of "The Vampire Armand" makes me understand so much about not only Armand as a character, but the care being taken to his adaptation. It's clear to me that alongside Rolin & Co.'s commitment to not watering him down to a one-dimensional villain they are also trying to not fall into Anne Rice's tendency to romanticize his trauma.

Sex and sexuality is not the same pillar of Louis and Armand's relationship it was in Louis and Lestat's and so I don't believe their story suffers from the lack of on-screen sex. But I also firmly believe that maybe we don't need to be slutting out the character who we literally just watched talk about how he doesn't remember his life before being sex trafficked. And even when he was "freed" he was still being repeatedly assaulted at the hands of, and under the eye Marius de Romanus. Like it is extremely important to remember that Armand's craving for dominion in his relationships is a manifestation of trauma that deserves the same level of care and depth given to every other trauma portrayed in this show.

I think people have gotten too comfortable calling IWTV a romance when it has always been Gothic Horror. Romance and sex are pivotal to the story but I have found the demands for sex scenes this season a bit absurd and also? unfounded? Loustat share more kisses on screen but there are two sex scenes and both are very plot relevant. I truly figured we were all in agreement that the eroticism of this show is found in the various displays of power, and the dynamics it creates and not the actual clapping of ass-cheeks...which also wasn't happening in S1 either. S2 does not suffer because of the lack of sex-scenes, but the likelihood if it suffering trying to make one work is

[chaotic-multi-fandom]

WHERE DOES IT START? ARUN, AMADEO, ARMAND

- My personal reflections on Armand's names in Interview with the Vampire (show version)

“Who am I Louis?” Armand asks while staring at a painting of a boy that only he would ever be able to recognize as himself. He stares at what is supposed to be his essence captured forever on a canvas, and yet the kneeling boy is a stranger to him. When he asks Louis this, he is earnest. Armand does not know who he is, and this lack of identity crushes and torments him. Armand seems to constantly define himself by his attachment to other people or things, such as a “servant”, as “the job (he) did not want” or as someone’s “companion” because he has never known anything else, he is never just “Armand;” he does not know who that is.

This is further reflected in his names, and the fact that despite having several none belong to him. First there’s Arun. This is supposedly the name he was born with, but even he is not sure of this due to his memory being clouded as a consequence all the horrors he suffered as a child. This name is not his, it is a name so linked to the abuse he endured that it has become the name of said abuse rather than the name of a person. His use of third person when talking about himself as “Arun” signals both a coping mechanism to distance himself from those experiences as well as the disconnect he feels from the identity attached to the name.

Then, there’s Amadeo. A name given to him by Marius, not only linking him directly with his maker and master but with God and worship, the name meaning “lover of god”. This name is also not his, but rather a projection of what Marius saw or expected in Armand. This is what we see in the painting, an ideal: a submissive, worshipful, whitewashed Armand degraded to kneel at the same level as the dog behind him, “basking in (his) worshipful mercy.” Regardless of how Armand did embody this role of worship and servitude during his time with Marius, that painting is not him, it is the fantasized construct that is Amadeo, who doesn’t really exist. When you think about it, Amadeo being a projection of those around him is not entirely different to “dreamstat” being a projection of Louis. This is of course largely my own interpretation and not fact, but I think anyone can agree that who is being portrayed in that painting is Armand only in name. It is simply another example of his body being used for a purpose, an artistic one in this case, his true essence and even features entirely forgotten and replaced by Amadeo’s. So, that name and the identity attached to it wasn’t entirely Armand’s either. Much like “Arun” being tied to his parents abandon and the brothel, Amadeo is trapped in the painting: just another property to be “sold” or “donated;” what Armand has always been treated as.

Finally, there is the name we call him by now: Armand. A name given to him by the Roman coven before sending him to the Paris coven, a collective that he is now supposed to lead and put before himself as an individual. It is a French name, a place he had no connection to before-hand and that only further distances him from who he might have once been, forcing him to adapt and assimilate into the new role he has been chained to. The name is a role in itself, as it means “soldier.” Furthermore, he is not a simple leader to this coven, he is the somewhat paternal and religious figure through which the coven; his “children,” serve Satan and through him, God. He is part of a “murky trinity” as Lestat calls it, a twisted parody of the holy trinity. So, “Armand” is once again much more than a name; it is another projection the lost and abandoned coven latches onto. Of course, they mostly refer to him as “maitre,” the implications of which I’ve already discussed in a different post. In this case, the dual titles “Armand” and “Maitre” are parallel to “Amadeo,” they both link Armand to the concepts of owner and God, except the roles change from being the owned worshiper to the worshiped owner. It remains someone else’s image, someone else’s name, one that prevents Armand from exploring who he is without it.

Armand does not have a name; how can he know who he is?

Even now he seeks the answer in Louis where he will not find it. There are, however, moments in which this seemed to be challenged. For example, shortly after meeting, Armand asks Louis to address him as such instead of “maitre” as his coven does. It is a moment in which he takes agency over what he wants to be called, a privilege he has never had before. Later, Louis calls him Arun as a way to indicate that he can see the person that lies behind the roles he plays, and that he can be himself around Louis. Yet these moments are still tainted. The name Armand does not reflect who he is, and in the conversation with Louis, Armand falls into his old patterns by addressing Louis as “maitre.” Plus, Louis too will go on to misuse this, but that’s a whole other topic. These instances, though revealing a more loving and honest side to Louis’ and Armand’s relationship in which they allow themselves to be open, they can not give Armand a sense of self. No one but himself can, and yet he doesn’t know how that is. It is a tragic never-ending paradox as immortal as he.

[oedipalcomplexes]

I think it’s really a somewhat unfortunate thing for people to be so weird and racist about louis exploring his sexuality and kink as a black gay man in paris (and jacob talks sooo extensively about james baldwin’s influence on his character this season) after escaping his abusive white father-maker-lover (one of the first things he tells people in paris is that he’s still trying to discover himself). why wouldn’t he want to step out of the role of the subservient suffering wife that lestat forced him to play and enjoy pushing against the constraints forced on him by the maker-fledging + white master-black lover dynamics without those specific power dynamics overshadowing his romantic relationships. there’s a lot of conversation about armand’s trauma informing his sexual preferences but you have to understand that this happened with louis too to a certain degree even if I personally feel it just comes down to his personal preference at the end of the day. the show is explicit about one thing - armand did feel safe sharing his history and ceding control to louis under consensual circumstances which are probably not things he’s ever done even when he had sexual relationships with other members of the parisian coven. a relationship with louis gave him the freedom he needed to extricate himself from the confining circumstances of coven life and the job he didn’t particularly enjoy.

the relationship having undercurrents of complex issues that inform their dynamic and lay bare their vulnerabilities and flaws isn’t something to comment upon uniquely just because they have an established dom/sub dynamic. there are a lot of angles informing the dynamic they settle into besides just their trauma because the show is specifically trying to make a lot of other commentary. armand seeking a master and lover and god in louis in vain because of his history with marius (and probably informed by the part he played in claudia’s death) is just as significant as him constantly micromanaging louis who’s treated like the metaphorical mad woman in the attic with mental illnesses who’s confined for her own safety. louis’ own worship of lestat’s masculinity, his desire to ascend the capitalist hierarchy, and his familial roles often acting as an extension of the patriarchal ones you see him engage in with his mother and sister and claudia are just as useful tools to examine the subtext in their relationship besides just. trauma lol.

at the end of the day it’s literally fine for louis to enjoy being a dom in their relationship. I think I hate the concept of louis being a suffering dom enduring the dynamic for armand even more because it seeks to apply moral judgement to anybody who takes on a more dominant role during, what is after all, just sex. a lot of people didn’t really absorb louis really enjoying cultivating a dom/sub relationship with 70s daniel, I guess.

[monstersinthecosmos]

kacy i need ur thoughts on marius and dom drop

Oh! My friend! I have several. 🤗

I have a lot to say and I’m not sure how to organize myself so be patient with me. But !

I think a lot about both the in-universe and non-diegetic kink in VC but also Marius’s own admittance that he lies to himself, and what that says about both his role as a dom and what it means, and his ego as a defense mechanism and what it means to his actual level of self-assuredness.

Like the short answer here is like: I LOVE thinking about a soggy Mawwius who feels really bad and goes back to his lair at sunrise feeling like a nervous wreck because there wasn’t enough time for aftercare LOL. I think it ties in really nicely to his hatred of anger/the humiliation around identifying with anger, and I wonder like in a moment of dom drop does it feel too much like he was being an aggressive brute, and does he lose sight of the fact that Amadeo (or whomstever) was into it?

Is he so ashamed of himself that he doesn’t even ALLOW himself aftercare? He takes the shame with him to be alone and punish himself, maybe! :D

WHAT A BARBARIAN!

And like I know I bring this up from time to time but the whole idea of non-diegetic kink/DOYLIST KINK IF YOU WILL, is that it’s kinky to the reader, on purpose, but not necessarily following “good” BDSM rules in the text, right? Like the whipping scenes in TVA are intended to be kink to the reader, but they’re not negotiated. So I wonder like, what does a dom role mean to him if he’s not slipping into it in a traditional/realistic way? If they exist in a world where negotiation isn’t warranted, how much aftercare do they need? And speaking to dom drop—there’s aftercare in both whipping scenes in TVA, but they’re focused on Armand, not Marius.

In some ways that feels appropriate, too, like, I don’t know man! What’s the etiquette when one of you is inhuman and there’s a 1500 year age gap? In real life we’d see BDSM as a consensual roleplay where the sub might want to check in, too, and is just as responsible, but in a situation like this, is it Armand’s job to take care of him after?

That’s the tricky thing about the non-diegetic setup that I’m getting at. As the reader, the EXTREME power imbalance is supposed to be tropey and entertaining and titillating, and it’s interesting trying to tease that out from like, how sincerely we take the actions on the page. (ie: the timeless discourse about whether or not the BDSM in TVA is abuse blah blah). So like, we can chose not to worry about it and write it off as Not That Deep, or we can say like, maybe it wasn’t Amadeo’s fucking job to care for the ancient creature that just beat the shit out of him lmao.

We have to ask, does proper etiquette exist/matter in this universe? (Either answer still works, it’s just like, what are we focusing on for this particular moment, like is it for meta or a fic or what, your mileage may vary). And like on that note, what was the BDSM etiquette in the 1490s, anyway? LOL Like does anyone give a fuck anyway? (This might be an ask for YOU, apoptoses!!!)

So it’s kind of interesting to think about this.

I mean!

Like, Marius can still have dom drop, whether or not Amadeo (or anyone else) cares to aftercare him. And that kinda feels appropriate with the no-rules non negotiated scenes in the first place. It’s appropriately messy if he’s torn up about it and then just goes back to his lair and stews and panics about it. Love that for him lol.

It also occurs to me like, if AMADEO also needs more aftercare, if Marius knows that but has to leave, I wonder how guilty that makes him feel. Like, I remember you and I talked about this LOL because I wrote this into Gallows Bird, that he woke up Riccardo to go sleep with Amadeo so he wouldn’t be alone, and you were gonna write some Riccardo/Amadeo about it!!! Like, how often did that happen?

We can say if there’s no negotiation and shit poor BDSM etiquette in universe, maybe he just left Amadeo to fend for himself at sunrise and that was that LOL and it layers into the extreme way it’s built for the sake of the story and exaggerated for the sake of the reader, but as always, I know that you and me both as fic writers like to think about this stuff on the ground floor because we try to envision more of a 360° view of what these scenes looked like from the inside and I simply have to ask all these questions to develop my understanding !!

And I have to ask how purposeful these scenes & roleplays are within the universe: is he slipping into the dom/disciplinarian role with intention? It asks that question like, what does this person need and how does the BDSM role help them? We can say that Amadeo is a brat, and that by necessity Marius must become a disciplinarian to take care of him. But is that something Marius would choose for himself? For Marius I can only imagine him thriving as a dom in the sense that it feels good to have control, but it’s an odd thing to need to express in the Venice era in particular where he is so very in control anyway. Is his paterfamilias/daddy kink already served just by their 24/7 dynamic and his control of the palazzo, and does he still need to top it off with impact play? There’s so many options here!

Option A is like, he’s basically service domming for Amadeo’s pleasure, and the dom drop is going to come from the idea that he’s so completely self-loathing as a monster!  People give Louis credit for being like the OG Self Loathing Vampire but Marius has him so so beat, imo. God he hates that shit. He has such bad vampire dysphoria constantly, he feels like a monster, he uses his powers sparingly to feel like a person, every time he grows a new strength he’s disgusted by it. He hates the idea of violence and anger!

Option B is that it’s therapeutic for him to exercise these powers with someone who appreciates them? Does it feel nice to indulge in his violent nature for a little while in a space where he knows he’s not hurting anybody for real? And like, for all the ways he has control in Venice – Amadeo will grow up and leave, the boys will leave, Vincenzo will die soon, he cannot keep them, he cannot join society in the way he wants. I think when you break it down, most trauma comes down to “a time I did not have control” and it’s natural for people to want to play with control to unwind, but for Marius in particular, his turning was SO traumatic and fucked up and I think really set the tone for his entire life. Not just being turned against his will but the way it was prolonged, that he did everything he could while he was alive to rebel against Roman society and maintain personal freedom, only to have that taken away for a YEAR! Being held captive is so fucking dehumanizing, and I wonder if he never really got over it.

Option C is that it just genuinely also gets him off and he’s playing with his food because taking little sips from Amadeo for years is giving him insane blue balls lmao

I also would be remiss not to mention my sincerely held belief that Marius is more of a sub on the inside, too, and so roleplaying as a dom or being so stressed that he needs to control SOMETHING is not natural for him. If he rose up to be a dom by necessity here—whether to meet Amadeo’s needs or because he’s become so violent and inhuman and needs to relieve stress—I can definitely see him having dom drop after and struggling to reconcile it when he’s lying awake in his sarcophagus panicking about it.

Everything in Venice is designed to be the exact opposite of his experience in Gaul. He spoils Amadeo with gifts, gives him a beautiful place to live, all the food he wants, wants him to have a worldly education, encourages him to go out and experience the city and meet people and have sex and take advantage of everything the modern world has to offer. And I think he likes that Amadeo sees him as a savior and not a captor. He even knows pretty quickly that he loves Amadeo too much to go through with turning him, anyway, and is willing to let him live.

So it’s interesting to me like, this is actually something I’ve tackled in Sheith fics LOL but like how to overcome trauma in a way that allows you to be violent for fun again, and how to find it cathartic and safe when your instinct is that it isn’t, or when the idea of it feels triggering. We don’t know about Marius having any other relationships like this before Venice, but he’s rejoining society for a while and finding a healthy outlet for his hunger, perhaps.

Especially off the heels of his thing for Bianca and Botticelli, and how he knew he’d kill them if he didn’t distract himself. The entire reason he HAS Amadeo at all is as a plaything and a distraction/rebound, so it’s interesting that controlled violence plays into what they do together, and how Marius loves him.

What’s interesting about it too is that like, again in the sense of it being the actual text—it seems like after both whipping scenes that they both have sort of emotional breakthroughs and can be more honest with each other. We know that Marius is a person who keeps his feelings inside until he explodes, and this is how that looks when he’s with Amadeo. He comes away from it with a sense of catharsis that he needed. No matter how they get here, it does seem like it’s something he needs.

But yeah anyway. This was all over the place LOL but those are some of the angles I consider when I think about this topic. I genuinely can’t imagine a version of Marius where he DOESN’T experience dom drop, honestly, it’s just that I think there’s a very different routes of how we get there. In the end, no matter how intentional the roleplays are, I think he’s going to go isolate himself after and go “what the fuck why did I do that oh my god” and the curse of their interspecies relationship is that he has to leave in the morning and they can’t cuddle their way through it until it feels better.

[massiveharmonytiger]

Anyone ever think about the fact that Armand probably hated the hell out of Claudia for having what he never could.

Claudia gets rescued from death as an innocent. Armand gets rescued from death as someone whose innocence died the day those slavers captured and raped him.

Claudia gets Louis and Lestat's love and takes it for granted. Armand craves their love but gets their scorn.

After she is made a vampire, Claudia lives with two caring fathers only to pine for a mortal life she'll never have and run away from the situation when the cruelty of being a vampire gets to be too much for her.

Obviously this isn't how I see it. Claudia had every right to run away after how she was treated and seek out her own answers. And her child/fledglinghood definitely wasn't all sunshine and roses. Her aunt abused her, Lestat was extremely cruel to her after Charlie's death, the Loustat brawl, Lestat dropping Louis from the sky, Bruce's abuse - all of these were extremely traumatizing and hard to live through.

My point is that Armand could know all of this and still see Claudia's past as the rosy childhood he never had because his was just that fucked up.

Also, I think book Armand is enslaved around a similar age to when book Claudia is turned (I read it this way, although I'm struggling to confirm this, can anyone confirm?) and I can see him wondering why he couldn't have had the dark gift to protect him then. Why does Claudia get it? Why is she any more worthy than he is?

Where Claudia doesn't have to do a thing, Armand has to prove his cruel streak to earn the dark gift and after he is made a vampire, he lives with his groomer, Marius, who is set on fire and Armand is captured by a coven that teaches him to hate himself until Lestat steps in.

So yeah, why would he stop the coven from killing her when she's had everything he's ever wanted?

Side note because I've seen some really bad takes on the Marius/Armand relationship.

Yes, Armand was in love with Marius and Marius loved him too. Yes, Marius rescued Armand from the brothel. Yes, Marius was kinder than Armand's slavers and Armand enjoyed a lot of the sex stuff he did when he was living with Marius. Yes, pederasty was normalized during that time and Marius was just acting like any man in his position would.

AND

Marius was still a groomer and an abuser. Marius was still in a position of power pulling strings to get Armand to do what he wanted and throwing tantrums when things didn't go his way. Marius still got off on Armand worshipping him. Marius was still Armand's owner and his kindness was dependent on Armand doing what he said (like letting himself be donated when a friend came from out of town - some people will say Armand was lying about that, to which I say, fuck you).

The fact that Armand enjoyed sex, started fetishizing his own abuse and using his body as a tool of manipulation doesn't make him complicit, neither does the fact that Marius had redeeming qualities (beauty, kindness, wisdom) and Armand fell in love with him.

None of this makes what Armand went through any less traumatizing. He's 500 years old and we can still see him grapple with what happened in his childhood.

I have no idea how they're going to portray Marius/Armand's childhood in the show, but I feel that even just a fraction of this would make Armand's resentment of Claudia pretty real, and I really hope we get to see Armand confront this in later seasons even though I'm pretty sure a lot of it is unconscious and he may not even be fully aware that he feels this way.

Update: Okay, so the consensus seems to be that book Armand was 15 which is pretty close to show Claudia's age (which is 14) and I don't think this is accidental. I think the showrunners highlighted this on purpose because they know that when we're engaging with the show, we're engaging with the books as well. This actually helped me realize how Armand and Claudia were technically both "child vampires" in the books, but Claudia was the only one that was really treated that way because she was turned at 5. Armand was turned at 17, and teenagers are so sexualised (then and now) and have so many demands placed on them that people tend to forget that they're also just kids.

[loumandaniel]

Yeah. Armand looks sooooo annoyed 😭😭😭 every time Daniel opens his mouth. I have to confess something. Even if I do kind of like the concept of dm and the eternal sunshine theory- I do love the question of what happens if you don't have time and your loved ones will never run out of time and also won't ever grow into anything else either- I don't think past dm happened. And uh. Idk how can dm happen then if there has been no past dm and a considerable part of dm was Armand terrorizing Daniel and Daniel trying to push through it before they eventually take a liking to each other.

i agree that past devil’s minion is essential, so without it, present dm going forward could feel odd. it’s easy to forget in fandom that devil’s minion is a blank slate right now. everything about them is essentially just theory. if you avoid outside interviews and books, the only thing you really know is that armand turned daniel out of spite. that’s it. if you don’t actively search for them, you won’t know they’re drifting toward something romantic until it actually happens.

i just can't come up with a reason to remove the chapter at all though. it plays a major role in armand grappling with his trauma surrounding marius, so i see no reason for it to be cut (hello anne rice's opinion on the cycle of abuse). it also ties into daniel’s character - his pursuit of truth, even to disastrous and unethical ends. the core elements of their relationship can exist in any form, but if there were to be something more between armand and daniel, it fits perfectly within themes of the show and who they are, even with your mention of "time running out." if dm broke up as poorly as they did in the book and there is no queen of the damned event to bring them back together, then of course armand being annoyed fits very well. imagine your annoying ex who left you because you two got too codependent is in your home untying your web you built for your current companion lol. i wouldn't want the king of destroying relationships in MY house.

the issue i've found with fandom and devil's minion (and honestly, a lot of other characters & ships get this treatment too) is that they're quite sanitized. when held up against their antagonism in the show, this tends to lead towards conflicting opinions. i hate to say it, but reading the books does a lot more heavy-lifting than one would expect. armand and daniel don't speak any differently in the show than they do in the books lol. they clash in both materials. they both want what the other has and they bleed together, which results in love.

i know this is mean to say, but the iwtv fandom as a whole really sands down the idea of love, or sticks to one singular interpretation. love doesn't immediately equate to a positive. the entire show revolves around how vampirism, whether as a curse or as a gift, confronts your emotions, your memory, against an unending corridor of time. if time heals all wounds, how many times can you rip the scar open again? like, yes, sure, louis and lestat love each other, but should louis love the man who dropped him thousands of feet to punish him for his denial of love? no lol. except, love here is measured against a passage of time beyond human comprehension. much of the love in this show can be horrific and dark, and yet there it is.

anyway, an unnecessarily long post to essentially say that, yea, devil's minion fits the show's theme too well for it to be abandoned in any form. armand enjoys living in lies at his own comfort, while daniel will pursue truth at the cost of his own. throw in the theory that a part of daniel's life is gone, potentially because of something armand has done? now, they’re clashing, but each with a long stretch of time to deal with that. they can be the warped mirror image of loustat, which is delicious to think about.

[armandposting]

I'm gonna ramble for a while about this actually so here's a cut lol

actually this is why I struggle with fics where (usually daniel) just like. explains to armand that Venice was bad, usually rudely, and that Works somehow. I get the urge. but I think it's misunderstanding the role of this period of armands life to act like this is how to address his trauma from it. he thinks of Venice as one of the best periods of his life because it was. not only were all his material needs taken care of, which was not true in his original home, when he was enslaved, pr with the children of darkness, but he's also able to be himself in ways he wasn't in any of those other settings. he certainly was his own person at home at kiev but he also had a lot of religious and familial pressures pushing him different ways. and while enslaved and with the cult he had basically no autonomy at all. in Venice he's being abused but he also has enough space to be coming into himself in a lot of ways. marius doesn't inflict unwavering obedience. there are consequences for acting out, but amadeo can and does anyway. (I'm NOT claiming this means marius was better at parenting him than his actual parents lmao. in the books his parents love him and I have no doubt that he would have been able to act out and figure himself out at home too as he got older. but he never got to find that out and his memories of that time are fucked anyway, so that possibility is not really going to factor very strongly in his self image.) and the cult is what completely kills armand's ability to think and act independently for hundreds of years.

so my point is, acting like he can't see that what happened to him in Venice is bad is like... missing the point, from armand's point of view. even if he was to recognize what marius was doing as abuse, that's not going to negate all of the other good parts about that time. and it's not going to negate that, even though he only existed for a few years, amadeo is the most developed in his personhood that armand is ever allowed to be until post-paris when he's finally independent again. thinking about andrei/arun, amadeo, and armand as splintered bits of personality, which I generally do, amadeo's influence is ESSENTIAL to that mix. andrei/arun exists in a fog, almost impossible to access, and even if he didnt, he was never more than a child. armand is tortured, indoctrinated, traumatized, and eventually, free of the structures that did all that, doesn't really know who he is. amadeo knew who he was and what he wanted. amadeo, while a teenager, was just starting manhood and saw himself as a fully developed man. he had friends and family and loved ones and a relative amount of freedom and safety. he was comfortable fighting for what he wanted and fighting back when he was upset. armand NEEDS some part of him who feels that way in order to get back to that place as an independent person. so of course he's never going to view Venice as unequivocally bad. because it wasn't! from his own perspective, it's not like he's viewing that time through THAT unrealistic a lens. it's really just that the rest of his life has either been That Bad or he doesn't remember it.

[fascinationstreetmp3]

the thing about show Armand to me is that he has this relationship to Youthfulness that resembles an aging hollywood starlet. his Prime Years that he spent with marius that were objectively Not Great for him = the ideal hollywood youth, pampered and beautiful and being abused behind closed doors. then followed by Centuries Of Exile = the starlet losing fame and fortune, being denied the attention (read: intimate abuse & objectification by the media) she had in her younger years. armand was 'donated' to friends of Marius, his image was used in Marius's art, and even centuries later he can look at these portraits and see a time when he was cared for and loved on the condition of his beauty. his desireability. things that he would lose as he aged. and Marius didn't willingly turn him; Marius would've been willing to discard him as he no longer became a desirable model and prostitute. and I think he retains that anxiety even as an ageless vampire. that sense that he is just about to lose the closest thing he's ever had to security, which is his attractiveness. and the profound certainty that no one else cares about what happens to him once he outlives his youth.

oh that's a very good analogy! for him his youth = his beauty = being desired.

i do wonder how marius treated him as he got older. i've seen it suggested that the "donations" to friends started when he became less desirable to marius while he transitioned physically into adulthood. amadeo in the books was often treated like a combination of boy and man depending on how it suited marius, yet when amadeo asserts he is a man, marius denies it. i can see this pattern carrying on over the twelve years they were together, even as amadeo obviously physically aged, and this having a serious effect on how he views himself. men having sex with boys, not other adult men, being what was more socially acceptable could've factored into that treatment.

maybe marius didn't actually start to desire amadeo less, because we don't have a lot to go on yet, but marius either losing interest or amadeo believing that he was as the years passed (later being given to sexually service friends instead of marius himself) would fit with this idea of wanting/needing to go back to the relative "security" of youth, because that's when marius himself wanted him most and acted on it.

and the children of darkness made him celibate after over a decade of sexual slavery; like you said, taking away the objectification and sexual abuse he endured from marius before being abducted, but that went hand in hand with being loved and cared for by him (and he also feels a distinction between what marius did to him, and what he recognises as the abuse he went through in the brothel before being sold to marius). and with marius possibly distancing himself anyway, amadeo's turning being a last resort to prevent his death, and his youth (and therefore his beauty) fading before that, it just reinforced this idea he has about love and his own self-image. so the height of his desirability = the height of his happiness and ability to be loved and cared for, which was during his adolescence.

now armand eternally feels like he's on the perpetual edge of becoming completely undesirable, but he needs love and security to survive, so he turns to doing anything to obtain and keep it.

[nightcolorz]

speaking about the parallel between Marius forcing Armand to take the name "Amadeo" (loved one) and keep calling him that even after it's clear he hasn't used that name in centuries (i saw somebody else saying he is like a parent using their kid's dead name in front of everyone and ignoring how uncomfortable their kid clearly is) and Armand calling Daniel "beloved" i was wondering what Marius himself thinks of this?

does he see the parallel too? is it clear to him that a part of Armand is modelling him and Daniel's relationship after the one he once had with Marius? And if so, can he understand Armand is trying to do things differently so he doesn't end up hurting Daniel like Marius hurt him?

What does Marius think of Daniel calling Armand "boss" not because Armand ordered him to but simply because he, Daniel, decided to start calling him that and even then, only sometimes?

the dead name comparison is so accurate oh my god 😭😭 that’s definitely the vibe I get. The way I see it, Marius is so self absorbed that even when acknowledging that Armand is harmed by his actions and is trying to break the cycle of abuse, I think he’d be able to understand that what he did was rlly wrong but still reflect on it in a self pitying, self absorbed way. “Wah wahh my fledgling would hate to become me and rejects the name I gave him in love wahh wahh bcus I hurt everyone i love wahhhh I hate myself and my life so much wahhhh I wish I could just have a good relationship for once wahhh everyone leaves me 😢😢😢😢”

In the books Marius is very aware of how he hurts people and he feels very bad about it, but it comes off as a shallow and self serving type of guilt bcus no matter how badly he feels he never changes his behavior. This is cuz Marius thinks that in any given situation he’s always right and his feelings and what he wants should always be the priority (toddler behavior). He is only able to recognize if smth he did was wrong when it begins to earn him negative consequences, and it seems more like he feels bad for himself and guilty for bringing about these negative consequences then he is about doing the thing. For example, he feels badly about turning Armand and knows it was wrong bcus Armand is a broken person who isn’t able to connect with Marius anymore, but meanwhile, he doesn’t feel badly at all when he turns Benji and Sybelle into vampires against Armand’s will (even when Armand is sobbing in grief) bcus this doesn’t result in anything badly coming to Marius, so Armand’s grief is an immature incorrect reaction and Marius knows best 😜.

I also think Marius would be very upset and jealous about Armand and Daniel and their pet names for each other bcus he can’t exactly place why they r so much happier and healthier giving each other names then he was giving himself and Amadeo names. It def pisses him off seeing Armand happy in new relationships💀Marius is a petty bitch before he is the benevolent teacher he thinks he is

[alwynwitch]

The toxic dynamic between Marius and his maker Teskhamen

Teskhamen wanted Marius to be kidnapped, raped into vampire existence and to save the vampire tribe/become the keeper of Akasha and Enkhil. Marius seems only to blame the druid priest Mael for this. Teskhamen seems fascinating and friendly to Marius, but I'm here to argue he is manipulative as well. I will analyze their reunion in Prince Lestat.

Marius thinks all those years (2000 years!!!) that Teskhamen is dead. His maker never let him know he actually survived the burning. Or offer any help with Those Who Must Be Kept. But then he approaches Marius. Why? Of course, you have the vampire crisis, Amel coming into consciousness and the changed structure of the Talamasca. But I think there is another layer: for the first time ever, Marius wants to sit this crisis out. He wants to hole up with Daniel (hunting together, watching movies) and wait till the storm is over.

But then his old maker is suddenly on his doorstep (again, after 2000 years of silence!!!). Because Teskhamen has chosen Marius for the task to carry the burden of vampire survival and he is here to remind Marius of his duty and the purpose he was made for. He does it with a lot of flattering and making sure no difficult questions are asked. Though soft-spoken and friendly, this creature is full of manipulation and bullshit.

This is how he approaches Marius:

"Marius," he said. "My beloved, my savior of long ago, my friend." "I know you?' asked Marius politely. Even as he clapsed the hand he divined nothing but what the agreeable and open face reflected: friendship. No danger.

During the conversation he is constantly flattering Marius, saying he is his savior, that he never had known a being like him, he compares him to the sum of sunshine on marble floors. Just friendly? Or a tactic to de-escalate the situation so Marius will not be angry with him? And, even more importantly, will do what he wants him to do?

Marius is deeply emotional which shows how much this meeting means to him (so why did Teskhamen not get into touch earlier?):

Something quickened in Marius, something he had not felt in a very long time. [...] But Marius was changed. Changed forever.

Teskhamen tells his story, which includes the founding of the Talamasca in 748. But the important questions are not asked. Why did Teskhamen never tell Marius he was still alive? Why did he not share his knowledge with him? Why didn't he check in with him to see how the task of taking care of Akasha and Enkhil was going? Why didn't he offer his help? See if Marius needed anything to carry the burden? Clearly, it would have meant a lot to Marius. (And remember how Marius abuses Armand in a similar way, letting him believe he was dead for centuries.)

Marius doesn't ask these questions. Instead, he seems to react exactly like Teskhamen is hoping for:

Marius shuddered. He had so hoped somehow this would all pass without his active acknowledgment, that somehow his time of holding the survival of the tribe in his hands was past. Had he not cared for the Mother and Father for two millennia? But he knew now he could not remain on the sidelines any longer.

No, Marius, you only cared for Akasha and Enkhil for 2000 years, of course it is not enough. The vampire Teskhamen choose you to carry the burden and you cannot suddenly step out, take a break or retire. This is why your maker has shown up now. Marius probably doesn't notice, because of his vanity, need to be in control and savior complex (that Teskhamen is exploiting skillfully).

But Marius realizes:

"And you're not one of us?" Marius asked. "You are not coming yourself?"

No, Marius, he is not coming. This is not an emotional reunion after which you two will fight the world together. He is here to remind you of your duty, the task he put you on 2000 years ago. Not to get involved himself. Especially Daniel is grilling him over this and see how Teskhamen responds:

"We ourselves made no decision." "Because you didn't have to," said Daniel. "Isn't that so?" Teskhamen shrugged. He made a little gesture of agreement with his hands. [...] "I don't know," said Teskhamen softly. [...] Teskhamen put up his hands again but this time defensively. "Daniel," he said gently. "I honestly do not know."

No, he doesn't know, he doesn't want to make difficult decisions, he is just here to make sure Marius will act and make the decisions for him and the whole vampire tribe. Then he pulls a last trick, telling Marius about the ghost of his old friend Raymond Gallant:

Marius was astonished. He was almost moved to tears. "Oh yes, Marius, you will see your beloved Raymond again, I assure you," said Teskhamen. [...] "But allow us our old caution, our old passivity, even now." "I understand," said Marius. "You want us to come together as a tribe, the very same thing that Benji wants. You want us to do the very best that we can in the face of this challenge - without your intervention."

Teskhamen uses emotional manipulation to get Marius in a soft spot to agree with everything he wants. Even though just before Teskhamen couldn't defend his position of passivity to Daniel. If Raymond means so much for Marius, why didn't he bring them into contact earlier? Why not right now? No, it seems like there is a condition for this meeting. Marius first has to play the savior once again.

"You're a splendid being, Marius," said Teskhamen.

Of course, Marius is a splendid being, a good soldier, who will once again carry out your wishes and take on the burden of vampire existence. This is the reason why you made him a vampire and you will make sure he stays on this path. While you can just watch and observe.

[monstersinthecosmos]

I've been thinking about the part in your latest fic where Marius responds to Daniel's dig about not fucking Armand by saying that Daniel wishes he hadn't.

How do you think Daniel felt looking back on his time with Armand by that point?

Also thank you for spoiling us as always with the incredible fic 🥰✨️

WE TALKED ABOUT THIS A BIT ON DISCORD BUT I WANT TO REALLY LIKE PARK IT HERE AND MARINATE IN MY FEELINGS OKAY??????

(but first of all omg thank you ;.; I’m so happy that you like it)

Before anything else I want to say that in this fic, they’re both just kinda throwing barbs at each other and picking a fight to feel something, and neither of them 100% mean it as much as they just know how to push buttons and pick at each other’s insecurities. So like, on that note, I want to state for the record that Daniel DOESN’T wish he hadn’t, but that Marius is still picking at some really complicated feelings.

[This is going to be really long, I’m sorry!]

I think like we (fandom) get kinda swept away in the silliness & romance of the Devil’s Minion and we don’t talk enough (FOR ME!) about how dark and fucked up it was. I just think it’s worth reminding everyone now and then that the Devil’s Minion chapter is a story about stalking and coercion and substance abuse—they MEET via Armand abducting Daniel and keeping him captive in a pitch black room for days and letting him starve. And to me, that’s part of the charm LMAO but I just feel like I wanna park that idea here in case anyone has forgotten.

So like, I want to think about Daniel Molloy as a 20 year old who was abducted, locked up, and starved by a vampire LMAO, and how the 40 years following that is a roller coaster of trauma and recovery.

And like, okay, insofar as I’m half talking about my own fic that was built with my own headcanons, I think it’s worth asking about Daniel’s life experience as a 20 year old. (I wanna drop this link here because I talked about it once in terms of his sexual experience LOL). Like, we know almost nothing canonically about Daniel’s background, and while that works really great for writing fic and headcanons and is FREE REAL ESTATE BABY, I think we really have to just keep asking like, how much experience does a 20 year old have?

Because I think it’s entirely possible that he never had a serious relationship before? Even if he had, is it relative to being 20 years old? How do we feel about the “serious relationships” we have when we’re that age?

I talked about this in the post I linked about his sexual experience so I don’t want to repeat too much, but we have to realize also that his life effectively STOPPED after the interview. He was on the run, he wasn’t dating lol. He did NOT have a social life. When he stopped running, it was to be with Armand. So what I’m kinda trying to say here is that I think it’s plausible that Armand was his only serious relationship, and that also means that it’s his first serious breakup.

(And while this is like, getting into headcanon territory since the canon is so vague, I will say for the record that it aligns with my ficverse, that almost all of my VC fics take place on the same timeline, so this is at least the truth in this story and it’s the truth of Daniel in all my stories.)

This is something else where, as much as I hate building meta around FANDOM, I want to also take a moment to remind everyone that they broke up lmao. They did! That happened! Fandom gets so swept up in the idea of endgames and whatnot and it's like. THEY BROKE UP LOL. Like yeah yeah that’s what fanfic is for etc etc etc do whatever but like, canonically speaking, Armand never wanted to turn another because he knew that it would inevitably lead to resentment, that makers & fledglings get sick of each and hate each other, that’s what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I like to think that Armand was doomed with his self fulfilling prophecy and the trope of I didn’t have a good dad so I can’t be a good dad so he didn’t even try and I’d like to believe in the post-canon ether that they can work something out lol but this is like, the canon, this is what happened. They broke up!!!!!!!!! Daniel got what he wanted and bounced!)

It's also by then the dissolution of an ongoing period of trauma and abuse that has been going on for at least 1/3 of Daniel's life, depending what year they actually made it to, and VC is a series that is often about messy grief, trauma, and grieving abusers.

So the Vamptember/looking in the dark from below collection of fics wasn’t planned or anything, they’re nonlinear little oneshots about different moments and aspects of Marius & Daniel’s relationship. And it’s just a place for me to park all these thoughts I have about them!!!!!!

But thinking about like, Daniel’s life being ruined by vampire -> being turned during a really chaotic Vampire World Event -> BREAKING UP WITH HIS MAKER! -> (???? radio silence in the 1990s) -> Having ND timeout at Marius’s house -> RECOVERING AND BEING IN A REALTIONSHIP WITH HIS MAKER’S MAKER…

It’s just such a complicated thing to look at, you know? In a very basic, easy-to-understand-for-us-mere-mortals way, the easiest way to think about it is that Daniel is recovering from a HORRIFIC breakup, but it’s also the trauma from like, the Everything. And also going from the nonstop Devil’s Minion chaos to like, just having to live as a vampire, and having to live as a vampire on his OWN?

I really really love thinking about this aspect of like the Trondheim & Beyond era because like, we’ve all kinda debated what does Daniel’s “madness” actually entail, like, what is the vampire neurotype yatta yatta, is he just overstimulated and needs a quiet break, can a vampire truly be “mad”, are some people just not fit for the Blood, whatever. But we DO see him recover! And Marius has a hand in the recovery! And I am just absolutely feral climbing the walls thinking about Marius’s feelings about the entire thing.

Because like, Marius has to look at it and think “Good lord Armand fucked this up” and I don’t think it’s possible to pin that on Armand without also accepting that Marius also fucked up with Armand ! And I’m so interested in thinking about how family patterns manifest in vampires—like I’ve written a little bit about if epigenetic trauma can exist inside the bloodline, but it’s also the lessons everyone learns from their makers, and how it informs what type of maker they then become.

I read a really interesting post from @theatlasofclouds the other day about Marius’s particular flavor of toxic empathy, too—the way he does what he thinks is best and what he thinks people needs, without understanding that he doesn’t KNOW what other people need, or that other people don’t operate the way he does, that they have different belief systems and emotional languages. And I tend to think of Marius as a dad-type Fixer—he wants to help people and guide people and wants to be respected as a leader/mentor/teacher.

We don’t have an answer of how or why Daniel wound up with him, but it’s impossible for me to ignore this elephant in the room, that Marius would see Daniel’s predicament as an extension of his own failures!!!!!!!!! Marius has that type of egotism, too, that he’ll feel responsible even if it’s not strictly his own fault!

I like thinking about Marius feeling responsible to fix it and clean it up, even if he's not sure what he's doing, even if he's doing it badly. I always try to approach Marius this way when I write him, so I've tried to make that kinda clear in the fics, too. He doesn't always know the best way to fix something, but he's gonna try anyway. He worships at the altar of his own reason, and doesn't know how to be wrong. (Gosh I know I wrote a big meta about Marius's ego as a defense mechanism but I can't find it lol but TLDR he has to believe in himself because it's the only way to make sense of immortality and any time he's proven wrong or makes a mistake it's a devastating wound to his entire sense of reality.)

It just makes me wonder how Daniel wound up with him, since we never got a complete answer. We know that he turned B+S, and then by the beginning of B&G he's ashamed of something that happened recently, and he thinks everyone's mad at him. Like, is it fair to assume he took in Daniel as a ways to make amends? Does he see Armand's handling of Daniel as a massive fuckup, and does he want to try to help? Does Daniel see that it's also a massive fuckup?

This fic series is really a space for me to daydream about all these angles because I think that these are some REALLY rich relationships, and their space in canon is largely off screen subtext. Like, none of this is really spelled out, but how do we NOT ask these questions?

And I’ve made it like 1500 words into this answer by splitting off into all these different directions, but to focus and bring it back to your question: IT’S COMPLICATED MAN.

I think SO MUCH about the line from TVA “I was no Marius to [Daniel] afterwards.” I think so much about how we don’t have any proof that Marius ever told Armand about his life. As far as we can tell, Armand never told Daniel about HIS life. By this point in the canon timeline, they will have READ it in books!! HAVE THEY EVER JUST TALKED TO EACH OTHER IDK?

Like how do they each FEEL reading that in TVA?! How does anybody begin to make up for it?

I also was so excited that you picked up on this in your AO3 comment on the chapter: “And then the way they trade barbs, I love when characters know each others perfect weak points to attack, and for both of them of course Armand is a huge sore spot that they share” – YES exactly!

There’s a lot to juggle here between like, Marius’s anger issues & trying not to be an angry person vs Daniel who is so very much like Marius in some really meaningful ways, how they might be weird mirrors of each other who sorta saved each other, how they might both operate on some similar wavelengths. I imagined them as the type of couple who doesn’t say I LOVE YOU or get vulnerable until they can push each other into an argument to admit it. In my mind, the chapter ending on “I love you, too” was the first time they’ve said it in that way, and Daniel clocks Marius’s difficulty in apologizing as a HUGE effort that expresses love.

But they’re basically picking a fight to feel something! They’re both saying shit they don’t 100% mean! Daniel’s history with Armand is extremely complicated and Marius knows it! Marius even feels complicit in it!

There’s this thing I really love in fics, I’ve only seen it a couple times so I’m not sure if everyone considers it a proper trope the way I personally do LOL, but I realllllllly love, not when a character loses their virginity, but when they lose their virginity in a disappointing way and then fuck a new person and think “I should’ve saved it for you” asdgjklasdghjkl LORD!!!!!!!!

I just have to wonder if there times where things were gentle and nice and Daniel thought “I wish Marius had been my maker” or other such sentiments. Imagine going from chaotic stalker Armand to calm daddy Marius, you know??????????

It would be natural to think that, and wonder what it would’ve been like, and it’s something I’ve tried to hint at in this series. And it doesn’t have to mean like, that Daniel completely regrets how he was turned or sincerely wishes that it had been Marius, but whomst among us have not looked back at traumatic experiences and wondered what our lives would look like if things had been different for us?

The good news is that I think there’s hope for these fools!!!!!!!!

Like, I am thinking about an arc of Daniel’s Horrific Breakup & Trauma Recovery, where things will settle down and he’ll feel stable and okay and the past won’t be such an open wound anymore. I think it’s also reasonable within the logic of VC that all roads lead to forgiveness and that time heals. He will eventually be okay and feel like, I’m glad it worked out this way, I’m glad Marius can be my companion and not my maker, everything lead us here and it worked out.

And I think like, Daniel & Marius have such a huge shared wound concerning Armand and I like to think that Daniel might be a huge key in everyone kinda figuring it out.

I'M JUST -------

WHAT DO MARIUS & DANIEL SEE IN EACH OTHER’S BLOOD? HOW DOES IT CHANGE THE WAY THEY THINK ABOUT ARMAND? MARIUS SEEING HIM IN AS A DOMINEERING PREDATOR, DANIEL SEEING HIM AS A VULNERABLE HUMAN???

Armand absolutely HAUNTS these two ! And it’s clear to me that they want so desperately to forgive each other and have something again !!!!!!!!!! Vampires are fools for that kind of thing, they mourn time periods and places and relationships! They become (or stay) vampires because they fear death ! They fear mourning !!! They fear loss !!!!

So again sorry we’re now 2300 words into this and I’m still rambling but again to answer the question, How do you think Daniel felt looking back on his time with Armand by that point? *by this point* I think, he’s sorta okay, but it’s still kinda sore. He’s getting there!

10 years ago he would’ve been crushed, and in 10 years he won’t mind at all.

Just anyway!

What a rich relationship these three have! There’s so much to talk about !!!!!!!!!

In conclusion I just gotta bring this back again because TLDR -

[lesbians4armand]

I am so so so loving and enjoying ur Marius and Armand posting bcus they are one of my favorite iwtv dynamics and it’s so incredibly hard to find people in the fandom talking about them in a way that isn’t either uncritical “they are so cute and goals” esc shipping or “there relationship is extremely bad so therefore I will not be discussing or acknowledging that it exists at all in anyway that goes beyond me saying that i hate Marius and want to kill him”, not that hating on Marius is in anyway bad I hate his ass too but I also like complex characters and devastating traumatic relationships and they are some of the best of the worst in that regard. I’ve gotten hate before for analyzing Armand’s positive feelings about Marius bcus “Marius is an abuser so referring to any love that exists between them is bad” which is just stupid bcus tvc and Armand’s entire character and story revolve so heavily around imperfect victimhood and the the complex often loving and meaningful relationships victims can have with there abusers bcus abusers aren’t cartoon villains they are people who have complex personalities and lives and I just the idea that there are tvc + iwtv fans who refuse to engage with the concept that a victim can love there abuser or have positive memories with them is so hilariously absurd to me like this is the everyone is in erotic love with pain and death series be serious. Anyways, the fact that armand loves Marius and he is meaningful to him is like the entire tragedy bcus Marius is his father and his God and the first person he can ever remember being kind and loving to him and Marius is Armand’s family and his identity and where he belongs, practically, bcus his memories of his real family are dead, and Armand is Marius’s baby who he raised like a son bcus he was an actual son to him and it’s horrific and terrible and sad bcus Marius also has been raping Armand since he was 14 and beats him until he is bleeding and strips away his personhood and identity then abandons him but it’s also like!! Armand is Marius’s baby he’s his son who he loves. That’s what real abuse tends to be like, it’s why parental abuse and abusive relationship are so devastating bcus this person who holds you and rocks you in their arms and kisses ur forehead and holds your hand and tucks you in bed is also the person who is making you bleed and cry and suffer,,,,, anyways keep up the good work!!!

THANK YOUUUU 🙏🙏🙏 and honestly you’re spot on with how difficult it is to discuss their dynamic, its like a knife’s edge between the book fandom that primarily romanticises and rose tints their relationship and the show fandom that seems to refuse to discuss or acknowledge their relationship or the love that did exist between them— harmful as it was, because of the door slam reaction of “marius is evil and cannot be analysed further, any discussion of him re: armand is shipping”. it gets so tiring 🥲

but truly they are so so interesting and indeed realistic in a way that endlessly fascinates me and draws me in and often deeply upsets me so while i joke i dont think i will stop talking about them any time soon, and im glad for the (small, but delightfully supportive) circle of users here who talk about them in a similar way <3

[massiveharmonytiger]

No, iwtv fandom. I won't be tagging my opinions about Marius as "Marius hate," to "avoid stressing people out."

Why? Because this fandom is not made up of people that are just "Marius lovers" and "Marius haters." Lots of people have mixed feelings about him and I take that into consideration when I post about him. Even as a so-called "Marius hater", whatever the hell that means. I mean, some people just straight up peg you as an anti or a self-righteous prude if you have one ounce of distaste for Marius, which hardly seems fair because a) Not once did I call for shaming, censorship or say that Marius shouldn't exist b) Have you SEEN my ao3 history.

I happen to think that Marius is a really important and complex character and I can't wait to see them portray that in the show. I just think so many Marius stans are so in denial about who Marius is or driven by repressed guilt because they know who he is and can't handle liking him despite that because they think it makes them a bad person (it doesn't). Ergo, they have to see him as this perfect father lover archetypal figure, which is depressing because we're all out here dragging every other vampire on the show, but please no dissing Daddy Marius. More so because of the associations tied to his blondness and whiteness and Roman-ness - god, I can't wait for the show's portrayal - I'm foaming at the mouth here. Ergo, they can't handle any negativity about him. I mean, we saw the same thing when Lestat slam dunked Louis through the clouds. Everyone on this website who couldn't handle the mark on Lestat's perfect white ass had a complete meltdown. There isn't half as much drama when Louis, Claudia or Armand get criticized for their shit behaviour.

I try to make my posts fair and balanced but I think a lot of the more hardcore stans that couldn't even handle that much. You know, because they weren't posts about the sun shining out of Marius' pretty golden ass. So many wouldn't be seeing my posts all that much anyways on account of them having blocked me after engaging with my posts or vice versa.

I just feel that my posts should be accessible to everybody and then they can decide how they feel about it. Whether they want to reblog it or hard block me. And that's not going to happen if my posts are excluded from a whole portion of the fandom that's simply trying to avoid drama and vitriol by blocking a hate tag. Furthermore, why should my discussions on slavery, pedophilia, racism, abuse, genuine themes in all iterations of Marius' story be classed as "hate" because some people are uncomfortable acknowledging that they are in fact, genuine themes in the media.

Hearing other people out is healthy. Creating boundaries and deciding to remove people from your curated tumblr space is healthy. What's not healthy, however, is splitting the fandom down the middle into this "Marius loving/Marius hating" binary and expecting people to cultivate an echo chamber where everybody shares your opinion and you won't have to learn how to deal with people that might disagree with what you think. TVC has never been the type of media for making people comfortable and I think it's weird that people would want to interact with this specific media in all its rapey, murdery, slavey, racist, colonialist glory and then be all surprised and butthurt when people engage with those themes like its a personal affront to them when nobody is actually personally attacking them. To the point that they don't even want to acknowledge the existence of the part of the fandom that engages with those themes. And you call that etiquette?

Although etiquette was pretty much associated with societies that would host lavish, "polite" parties on the one hand and colonize, enslave and discriminate on the other, so why wouldn't online etiquette follow the trend? Let's just say nothing negative about any complex or problematic characters, themes and issues and then we can all have a good time and pretend that everything is perfect.