#what makes a compelling narrative

[inkcurlsandknives]

Thinking about what makes a compelling narrative

I've been watching and reading a lot of anime/manga and romance lately. They're one of my comfort genres. Way too many real life terrible things have been happening for me to be able to experience escapism into anything with a hint of grimdark. For example right now I'm watching My Happy Marriage/Watashi no Shiawase na Kekkon, which is an Anime/Manga/light novel romance. It is blatantly a Cinderella story, where all the villain's are cartoonish-ly evil, while the MC is simply a cinnamon roll, too sweet, too soft and good for this world. The whole thing should not hang together as a functional or even strong narrative, much less a show both my partner and I are enjoying wholeheartedly.

I think it's secret is that it is completely and utterly earnest. I think as an audience we're more willing to suspend disbelief and go along for the ride when a story wears it's beating heart on its sleeve. I think a huge weakness of a lot of popular western media and fiction is that it feels like everyone is allergic to sincerity. Everyone's too busy cracking a glib one-liner or being grimdark and gritty to care deeply and honestly.

It's something that a lot of anime/manga and the romance genre at large has completely embraced. Even media that is actually quite dark like Jujitsu Kaisen or Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba feels like a breath of fresh air because of how earnest the protagonists are. Romance books have this in spades, some of my favorites have been, The Sun is Also a Star, Get a Life Chloe Brown, and The Devil Comes Courting.

I think a lot of the time we're too ready to turn up our noses at narratives and characters that care and care deeply. Writers will say it' simplistic, or a character archetype that's overdone. But I think the first step of getting your audience to care is to have characters who care, and to not be shy about it. Let the audience care with your characters, let stories be earnest and sincere and wear their hearts on their sleeves. Not everything has to be a clever twist or a joke or afraid of real feeling, and we do ourselves and the stories we tell a disservice when we tell ourselves that sincerity and earnestness are trite and only serious grim and hopeless things are real and engaging.

One thing I always strive for in my own stories is to have characters who care and care deeply, and often for conflicting things.

[lungthief]

listen. i know it's not 2014 anymore and i know it's just a throwaway line and that the russo brothers didnt intend for marvel action blockbuster captain america the winter soldier to become the tragic gay love story that never was but man. having steve say "it's kind of hard to find someone with shared life experience" in a conversation about romantic relationships right before the bucky reveal is so cruel. it's not just about steve and bucky obviously having the shared experience of being "out of time," it's the fact that they've both been stripped of their humanity in opposite directions. steve is a legend, he is an american hero and a national icon before he is a human being the same way that bucky is a weapon and a killing machine before he is a human being. steve knows that anyone who falls in love with him in the 21st century fell in love with captain america first, and that's just not him. but then the one person who knew him first and knew him best and loved him (not captain america, that little guy from brooklyn) so much he died for it is alive, impossibly. and it's a miracle because he's back and it's horrific because he's back under the worst possible circumstances. but to steve, the winter soldier is worth tearing the world apart for because he's always been bucky first. they find each other and suddenly they're human again. and maybe, despite it all, being "out of time" becomes a blessing, because in this century they'd finally be allowed to love each other the way they've always wanted to. like real people do.

like. no. the captain america trilogy isn't about two queer men traumatized and alienated by war and modern life rediscovering and reclaiming their humanity through their love for each other. but. i mean. it couldve been

[edwardsdeathcabcd]

i've said it before but it will forever and always make me insane that jacob's ending is to join the cullens for the sake of bella not having to give anything up. they find out jake will be immortal & tied to renesmee forever, so bella gets to smile & say "my family is finally complete! ^-^" but jake already HAS a family. he has a father and 2 sisters. quil, embry, seth and sam are like his brothers. jacob and leah were planning to run away together. he's always been welcome in emily's home, sue has been a family friend since before his birth. bella abandons her mortality by choice because she feels no connection to the people around her, but jacob has really strong bonds. it's clear that every character we meet in la push is like family to him, he's an active member of the community. jake would've graduated high school and been a mechanic, would've grown into a young man. a good friend, a fun uncle, a present son. he's set up to have such a rich life. and he's just magically compelled to give that up. beyond his control, he loses sight of everything, because his high school crush's baby is now the singular most important thing to him. he's perpetually 18 with his perpetually 18 year old girlfriend, running around vancouver or alaska or wherever with the girl who friendzoned him at 16 & her in-laws (who were antagonistic to him for months). and i'm just supposed to say omg yay now he doesn't have to let go of bella! everyone is happy! it's complete madness

[flowersandfashion]

sorry let me rant about downton abbey 10 years later

Thomas's conversion therapy plot pisses me off so much. firstly, it's incredibly out of character. he never wanted to change to conform to society, he wanted the world to change to accomodate him. the man who said "it's not against the law to hope is it" and "I'm not foul, Mr Carson, I'm not like you, but I'm not foul" would NEVER

secondly, from a storytelling perspective, the only 'problem' is that he used infected needles. did we forget that Thomas was a sergeant in the RAMC? he knows how to sterilise needles and how to recognise and treat infection. this also shifts the blame to Thomas himself for getting sick and implies that the conversion therapy itself is harmless (Dr Clarkson says it's just saline solution)

thirdly, it's not historically accurate. I'm not an expert but conversion therapy was not at all common in the 1920s, even Sigmund Freud was against it. hormone therapy and chemical castration were barely developing let alone available to the public (I can't imagine what else the 'treatment' was supposed to be). the only practices that I can find evidence of were psychoanalysis and electric shock therapy

Thomas also mentions that he did electric shock treatment - if you really want to make a point about homophobia in the 1920s (and make Thomas suffer as much as possible), show that instead. watching him be literally tortured for his sexuality would have been far more impactful than him just... looking sweaty for a few episodes

[valtsv]

thinking more about unnamed figure skating horror story. i think that the killer's motivation for their actions is that they're an obsessed superfan of verity (disgraced figure skater)'s who decides that since her story ended so dissatisfyingly, they're going to write her a better one - by making her famous again through the murder and desecration of her old rivals and colleagues. she'll get all the media attention, chances to tell her side of the story, and forgiveness and sympathy that she deserves - as long as she lets everyone around her pay the price to make it happen.

[batsplat]

your top 5 fave motogp races? or alternatively what races you’d show to a newbie to get them into the sport or smth

one of those things where it's painful to pick five, but at least this ask gives me the chance to hedge my bets and pick five different races for each category (most of these races will be featured in the recs lists; 27, 4+93, 46)

laguna '08: works wonders to bring both that season and the rivalry alive. delightfully visceral and vicious, there's few duels that tell you quite so much about both participants. I have lap-by-lap notes for this race. I have points tables assessing how much of a turning point it was in the season. I have read the bit in casey's autobiography about this race about a million times. how their expectations going in influenced the dynamics of the race, how the slower man won the race, what valentino was attempting to do to casey, casey's response... I could quite literally talk about this race forever

phillip island '17: idk I don't think this is objectively 'better' than the other two infamous dogfights of that era (pi '15; assen '18), but sometimes you just notice which one has the most rewatch value for you... I really like races where risk/reward calculation is a big deal, where at least one of the riders is having to actively judge how much they're willing to do to win... with the hard style of racing in this one, those calculations feel particularly present. phillip island is in such a perfect calendar spot for generating maximum drama

misano '17: maybe the quirkiest pick. marc is too good and too successful for me to ever really have been 'stressed' watching him in his prime, but bloody hell did he run me close here. something so satisfying about being so adept in wet/mixed conditions... love the spite element of this race, love the risk/reward calculations, how marc just needs to go for it in the very final lap, his dogged determination... a race where he doesn't have a massive margin over the field but just wants it so so badly that he goes for it. he's making a statement, bouncing back from a low point in the season, super compelling stuff

mugello '04: just love races that are kinda a mess! lots of twists and turns... bunch of riders fighting it out, the sete duel, the rain interruption, bunch of riders fighting it out but now on a way more slippery track... I don't know, there's just something charming about a race that has a bit of everything! of course it's also part of my beloved 2004 season, from which I could have easily included five different races (and if you're ever looking for a full season to watch, 2004 2006 and 2017 are the holy trinity - mix of title fight drama and banger races)

okay listen I'm gonna cheat here because I wrote out the word 'catalunya' and then had a crisis staring at this post. '07 I need to include because it's my favourite casey win and it's how he establishes himself as an all-round threat and is so important in the overall context of the valentino rivalry, but '09 is like... right up there with laguna as season lynchpin races and also somehow jorge has been left out from these picks... I love big momentum-switchers I love races that have so much meaning in the context of a rivalry AND season. I also love how they're connected! that valentino did the same move on casey (just not on the final lap) and had basically already rehearsed his coup de grâce two years in advance, before visualising it the week before the race... casey joking about it in the catalunya '09 presser, jorge knowing he kinda should have seen it coming, casey kinda ragging on jorge for not having seen it coming... idk!! I like this little legacy they built there together

for newbies

phillip island '23: you need to include something a little more current to give new fans a reason to watch now... phillip island races are reliably great - this one introduces you to two of the major protagonists of the current game in a way that kind tells you a lot about both of them, gives you a demonstration of one of the best types of races (the multi-rider dogfight), and it also is the most brute force way imaginable of explaining how tyres work in motogp. pedagogically pleasing! it's the kind of race new viewers will be able to enjoy in the moment, but have a lot of questions about afterwards - the sweet spot

assen '15: easily makes my top five rewatched races too, but I put it under the newbie header because again... tells you a lot! it's very likely this hypothetical newbie will have at least have SOME knowledge of who the two protagonists are and know they've fallen out, though I suppose it'd be funny to go in completely blind. obviously a great duel and a very nice introduction to the two big names plus their respective riding styles... what you really want is some late drama and a controversial finish that you can immediately have a hot take about

donington '05: we need a full wet race, not just mixed but wet wet... this one's got one hell of an attrition rate but also proper tussling between the different riders, rather than everyone just riding out on their own. it really gives you a feeling for how these kinds of races work... lot of riders wobbling around, saving near-falls, trying to get a sense of how much they can risk, riding behind each other to have somebody else test out their conditions... plus, the valentino performance kinda slaps

austria '17: got to be a marc/dovi duel in here, and this one has the clear edge not as much for the race itself but a) the novelty at the time, and b) the significance in the title fight. in dovi you've got somebody who is emerging as a threat and is providing a new flavour of challenge.... there's also that fun tension between how marc logically very much should just be happy to be there as a result of what a ducati circuit it is and he's simply supposed to be limiting the points damage... but he also really, really wants to win... actually either this or motegi 2017, almost want to change my pick. one of those two!!

brno '03: sneaking in an old race as a gateway drug, and I think this one is quite 'accessible' to the uninitiated. I considered other ones like phillip island '01 (valentino's first premier class matchpoint race, classic dogfight) or welkom '04 (first yamaha race and one of the duels) - but I think you don't need much context to get absorbed in this one. the race commentary already gives you the most important information... valentino's struggles that season, the criticisms he was facing from the italian press, how badly he wanted to win, the haircut, all of it... and then you get to see the post-race prisoner's celebrations, a flavour of the proper classic camp dramatics

slightly silly number of honourable mentions, each of which I was extremely tempted to include: motegi '10, jerez 2005, misano '19, laguna '11, jerez '10, assen '04, catalunya '04 '05 '16, mugello '05 '06, sachsenring '06, assen '04, phillip island '04, le mans 2005, qatar 2005, suzuka '01, thailand '19, austria '19, qatar '18, silverstone '19, sachsenring '10, qatar '15, mugello '16, sepang '10, assen '07 (and ones I did already kinda mention above: phillip island '15, assen '18, phillip island '01, welkom '04, motegi '17)

[vero-niche]

trying to play morality police in the trigun fandom is so funny, like how are you a fan of the "incestual sexual assault trauma" show and then be outraged to see incestual fanart. my preference is not them either but cmon guys the call is coming from inside the house

[evelynpr]

Bkdk and tgck truther but I don't take Izuocha slander at all. I'm blocking y'all, and go block what you don't like either and just think about their dynamic for longer than 5 seconds.

If I see another post saying they have no substance, meaning, purpose, or anything interesting, leave that opinion to yourself and read again. If that post is just meant to ruin someone's mood instead of have a thoughtful discussion of their dynamic, then just don't post it, please.

[soulless-bex]

Jason, but instead of his usual post-death beef with Bruce, he’s giving Dick the cold shoulder. like he always knew Bruce was an emotionally constipated bastard with a black and white moral code he lives by and that hasn’t changed after his death, or even his resurrection. Dick however…

let’s say just say that Jason took it personally. in a very “if he could change for them then it means he was always capable of change and i just wasn’t worth changing for” kind of way

[ifyougoillfollow]

you know, we talk a lot about characters and/or relationships (of all kinds) being 'doomed by the narrative' around here, and how haunting and gut-wrenching that can be, especially when it so often takes the form of death and destruction and tragedy.

and we should keep doing that, obviously. death and destruction and tragedy kick total ass.

however. can we please spare a thought for the clowns trapped in that same (burning) room?

after all, what is a comic relief character if not doomed by the narrative to always act like a buffoon despite any and all circumstances, all for the sake of relieving narrative tension?

how must it feel, to have everyone around you dropping dead, losing limbs, losing loved ones, and otherwise being on the receiving end of unending torment - and all you can do is stand there and prattle off another zinger at your allotted time?

and what if you lose a loved one yourself, o jester mine? what if - hear me out - you lose multiple loved ones? what if it never ends? what will you do then?

well, if you're lucky, you'll get to mourn for all five of the seconds you're allowed to before the size thirty shoes go back on and the narrative moves on to other, more plot-central characters.

if you're not - well. it's a good thing clown makeup is waterproof, isn't it?

anyway, shout out to all my comedy kings out there doomed to play perpetual funnyman to their more plot-central counterparts despite being in undeniably comparable pain. you may be doomed by the narrative, but you are beloved by me <3

[kozzax]

I've been thinking about postcanon a lot today. I think... the thing is I know a lot of people won't enjoy it. It very much isn't for everyone. The epilogues in particular are intended to be hostile towards readers and are very much uncomfortable to get through.

That being said, I think the way that the epilogues and Beyond Canon work as a unit is really compelling.

Homestuck is a story about telling stories-- this is common knowledge. Also common knowledge is that the ending of Homestuck is the kids getting to leave the narrative. Their happy ending exists only when they exit the spotlight, only when their story is concluded and our paths diverge from theirs.

The epilogues function as almost a punishment for the reader, because we forced that spotlight back on them. We as readers are meant to really truly feel and understand the consequences our yearning for more have on these characters. You want them to be back in the narrative? Alright. Now you have to truly reckon with what you've done.

That's why they're so hostile and unkind. You're not supposed to enjoy them. They're uncomfortable and distressing and rough to get through because you as a reader have hurt these characters by continuing the narrative.

What Beyond Canon does, then, is recognize that we as readers have gone through the epilogues. We understand the horrors we have brought onto these characters. We know what we've done.

Beyond Canon takes this and says alright. Now it's our turn to fix it. Now it's time to guide them back out of the horrors and, hopefully, to end their narratives once and for all. It's the uncurling of the monkey's paw.

We see this so clearly in a lot of the recent upd8s. The heroes are getting their chances to speak out against what happened in the epilogues, getting their chances to truly process their emotions. We still have a long way to go to undo the damage our narrative spotlight did, but we're working on it.

And the Omega kids-- well. They've only just entered the narrative, haven't they! Their happy ending isn't necessarily defined by leaving it, and even if it was it would be leaving the narrative after they've grown. Beyond Canon takes them from being the props that they were in the epilogues and gives them a chance to flourish.

I like postcanon a lot. This is... only part of how I think about it-- the other part is less meta and more about how actually it's all very in character when you look at it through the right lens, but that's a post for another day. I just. I think it's so interesting and compelling ok.

[schrondingers-dumbass]

Yet again Abria with the steel chair on the most fitting yet crushing character move. Many emotions this evening on the world beyond numbers podcast.

,

[brjeauregard]

Some of you want your favorite characters to have a happy ending, I want my favorite characters to make questionable choices and face the consequences of their actions. We are not the same

[rubiatinctorum]

I get where people are coming from when they say Diaspro in Winx lost the plot for the sake of being turned into a minor villain and that's all once Valtor enabled her to do what she did in S3, but I feel like that was a reasonable narrative choice. It's only a love potion at that point (while I could go on all day about the ethics of love potions, of course, a later season has her straight up trying to do direct murder). She's a noble, guards will do her dirty work, and I understand that she would feel like getting revenge on Bloom while getting back together with Sky. She was promised a position — romantic AND political — she nearly had and then it was taken from under her by a random fairy who wasn't even "supposed" to be in the running. I don't think what she did was nice, but it makes sense for the story and for her character for her to want to reclaim her position in the way she did. Sky's love was an accessory, in part, to her political ascension, and thus he is again rendered accessory and accomplice by the love spell. And, sending guards after threats seems to be the thing to do in the magical universe if you're a disgruntled noble, so it's probably not unfamiliar for Diaspro to have seen occur before or want to do. It's not a uniquely rotten response any more than Radius' behaviour towards the monster (who, he didn't know it, was Stella). If we fault her for this action rather than only the intention behind it, we need to examine how the worlds in Winx Club deal with threats to their monarchs in general, which sounds interesting but I frankly don't have time for tonight. Diaspro did wrong, but she didn't do uniquely wrong there, and Eraklyon has the punitive security structures in place to have enabled that.

Diaspro's later appearances seem to flatten her motives and the symbolism behind why her relationship with Sky was important and what she does about it (who cares what Diaspro's political aims are and how her status might reflect how she deals with problems, the audience needs to see Bloom thrown into fire I guess), but I feel like seasons 4-8 weren't really that good anyway, so I can't even claim this as a fault of the writers doing Diaspro specifically wrong instead of them just doing the whole show wrong at that point. It might be related, and it might be a coincidence, but a lot of the writing choices seemed to become more flat to me right around when the art shifted to that lifeless godawful Flash simulacrum of S1-3's art.

Also like... idk but if some long-haired hottie wizard in a sick coat and contemplative eyeshadow told me he could help me get my promised chance at both romantic and political success back, I'd at least hear him out, yknow, see what he had to say (<- don't trust me I simp for Valtor)

[lostandbackagain]

im blaming it on my distrust of landy as an author but skulduggery pleasant becoming pretty explicitly a story of regret is a very welcome development

from "regret never won war, valkyrie, and sorry isn't a big enough word for what I'm feeling" and "for your sake I'd change everything," to valkyrie's self-atonement arc she'll probably be working on until the day she dies, china's whole life being built upon actions she wishes she could undo, people who didn't say "I love you" back and now they never can, chasing alternative futures until they become self-fulfilling prophecies because they already want a do-over, alternate dimensions where someone made one single decent choice and changed everything for better or worse--every book is drenched in "I wish it had been different"

[infizero]

i think one of the things that makes toby fox's writing so great is his ability to tell a compelling narrative AND metanarrative at the same time. undertale isn't JUST about how people play games and the need for completionism, and it isn't JUST the main story that you play through. it's both! and both are equally important.

and i think the same will be true for deltarune. some people tend to think of it as black and white when theorizing, either focusing too much on the meta aspects without taking the actual plot and character arcs into account, or doing the opposite and saying that the meta aspects aren't important and won't end up being relevant to the story. it's both! it's always been both!!!