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gay-otlc · 5 months ago

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I'm generally not a fan of quantifying oppression or looking at it as a scoreboard, but I frequently hear the claim that if you read the data, it will show that trans women are indisputably the most oppressed of all trans people, and isn't comparable to the level of oppression trans men face. And I looked at some data, from the UK's National LGBT Survey (I was referring to it for some data on transheterosexuality so I had it on hand).

The survey included 3,740 trans women and 3,170 trans men.

Being LGBT in the UK:

Average comfort level being LGBT on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being the most satisfied: 3.10 for trans women, 3.15 for trans men

Average life satisfaction on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the most satisfied: 5.07 for trans men, 5.52 for trans women

The data from this survey indicates that similar proportions of trans men and trans women tended to struggle in their overall experiences living as a trans person.

Openness about gender identity

Entirely closeted with friends: 7.4% of trans women, 2.8% of trans men

Entirely closeted with family members that participant lived with: 20.1% of trans women, 14.5% of trans men)

Entirely closeted with family members that participant did not live with: 25.3% of trans women, 22.0% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity for fear of a negative reaction: 58.9% of trans women, 56.2% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in public premises or buildings: 67.6% of trans women, 62.4% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity on streets or outdoor public places: 68.1% of trans women, 61.8% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity on public transport: 68.7% of trans women, 58.7% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in neighborhood: 68.5% of trans women, 56.9% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in workplace: 60.6% of trans women, 53.0% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in cafes, restaurants, pubs, or clubs: 61.8% of trans women, 57.5% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in the park: 54.4% of trans women, 46.2% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in other environments: 9.0% of trans women, 8.9% of trans men

Avoiding being open about gender identity in athletic environments: 63.1% of trans men, 60.2% of trans women

Avoiding being open about gender identity in schools: 45.6% of trans men, 35.1% of trans women

Avoiding being open about gender identity at home: 38.9% of trans men, 32.4% of trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans women than trans men tended to struggle with being open about their gender identity.

Transphobia from people the participant lived with

Verbal harassment: 34.0% of trans men, 22.2% of trans women

Outing: 38.5% of trans men, 23.5% of trans women

Threats of violence: 7.0% of trans men, 6.1% of trans women

Coercive/controlling behavior: 25.0% of trans men, 18.2% of trans women

Physical violence: 6.1% of trans men, 4.2% of trans women

Sexual violence: 2.2% of trans men, 2.1% of trans women

Other transphobic incidents: 29.4% of trans men, 18.3% of trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans men than trans women tended to struggle with facing transphobia from people they lived with.

Transphobia from people the participant did not live with

Outing: 29.4% of trans men, 24.6% of trans women

Verbal harassment: 42.2% of trans women, 36.0% of trans men

Threats of violence: 13.7% of trans women, 10.5% of trans men

Physical violence: 7.2% of trans women, 5.6% of trans men

Sexual violence: 6.1% of trans women, 3.9% of trans men

Other transphobic incidents: 27.6% of trans women, 25.8% of trans men

Private sexual images shared without consent: 18.5% of trans women, 13.3% of trans men

Had conversion therapy: 5.0% of trans women, 4.1% of trans men

Offered conversion therapy: 9.3% of trans men, 7.6% of trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans women than trans men tended to struggle with facing transphobia from people they did not live with.

Experiences in school/educational institutions

Entirely closeted at school: 16.6% of trans women, 9.3% of trans men

Entirely negative reactions at school: 3.6% of trans women, 2.1% of trans men

Entirely positive reactions at school: 28.9% of trans men, 34.7% of trans women

Outing at school: 77.9% of trans men, 62.9% of trans women

Verbal harassment at school: 73.4% of trans women, 70.0% of trans men

Exclusion from activities at school: 31.7% of trans women, 24.3% of trans men

Threats of violence at school: 25.0% of trans women, 19.8% of trans men

Physical violence at school: 15.1% of trans women, 9.6% of trans men

Sexual violence at school: 12.4% of trans women, 5.0% of trans men

Other transphobic incidents at school: 50.0% of trans men, 47.3% of trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans women than trans men tended to struggle with being trans in schools/educational institutions.

Workplace experiences

Had a paid job: 56.9% of trans men, 65.3% of trans women

Entirely closeted with senior colleagues: 33.4% of trans men, 31.5% of trans women

Entirely closeted with colleagues at same/lower level: 30.6% of trans men, 26.6% of trans women

Entirely positive reactions in workplace: 34.7% of trans women, 36.3% of trans men

Entirely negative reactions in workplace: 5.1% of trans women, 3.9% of trans men

Outing at work: 59.9% of trans men, 55.5% of trans women

Verbal harassment at work: 49.6% of trans women, 45.6% of trans men

Exclusion from activities at work: 32.7% of trans women, 21.8% of trans men

Threats of violence at work: 9.6% of trans women, 7.7% of trans men

Physical violence at work: 5.5% of trans women, 3.2% of trans men

Sexual violence at work: 7.0% of trans women, 4.0% of trans men

Other transphobic incidents at work: 54.2% of trans men, 53.3% of trans women

The data from this survey indicates that similar proportions of trans women and trans men tended to struggle with being trans in the workplace, with slightly more trans women struggling.

Public healthcare experiences

Needs ignored: 32.3% of trans men, 24.0% of trans women

Avoided treatment for fear of discrimination: 24.3% of trans men, 17.4% of trans women

Inappropriate questions/curiosity from healthcare workers: 29.0% of trans men, 18.9% of trans women

Discrimination from healthcare staff: 14.2% of trans men, 12.6% of trans women

Inappropriate referral to specialist services: 13.8% of trans men, 10.3% of trans women

Unwanted pressure for medical testing: 10.6% of trans men, 8.6% of trans women

Had to change GP: 10.9% of trans men, 9.7% of trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans men than trans women tended to struggle with public healthcare.

Mental healthcare experiences

Average ease accessing mental health services, on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being very easy: 2.49 for trans men, 2.55 for trans women

Unsuccessful accessing mental health services: 28.6% of trans women, 27.7% of trans men

Anxious/embarrassed about accessing mental health services: 40.1% of trans men, 29.1% of trans women

Unsupportive mental health practitioner: 17.0% of trans men, 16.9% of trans women

Average mental health service ratings, on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being completely positive: 3.22 for trans men, 3.40 for trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans men than trans women tended to struggle with mental healthcare.

Sexual healthcare experiences

Average ease accessing sexual health services, on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being very easy: 3.72 for trans men, 3.75 for trans women

Unsuccessful accessing sexual health services: 14.6% of trans women, 12.3% of trans men

Anxious/embarrassed about sexual health services: 57.3% of trans men, 31.8% of trans women

Unsupportive sexual health practitioner: 15.1% of trans men, 11.9% of trans women

Rating of sexual health services, on a scale of 1-5, with 5 being completely positive: 4.05 for trans men, 4.10 for trans women

The data from this survey indicates that more trans men than trans women tended to struggle with sexual healthcare.

TLDR: According to the data from this survey, the areas in which trans women tended to face more struggles than trans men were in openness about gender identity, transphobia from people they don't live with, and being trans in educational institutions. The areas in which trans men tended to face more struggles than trans women were in transphobia from people they did live with, public healthcare services, mental healthcare services, and sexual healthcare services. Trans men and trans women struggled similarly with being trans in the workplace, and with their overall experience being trans in the UK, with trans women facing slightly more struggles in the workplace.

Obviously, this is only one survey, and doesn't represent all trans people as it was conducted only in the UK. It's possible that another survey might show trans women struggling more in healthcare, or trans men struggling more in schools.

But I would say this is strong evidence that trans women are not necessarily the most oppressed of all trans people by far in all areas of life. Trans men and trans women both face severe oppression, in some similar and some unique ways, and it helps no one to minimize the suffering of either.

Reading Comprehension Questions:

Did OP say that trans men are more oppressed than trans women? (Hint: No)

Did OP say that trans women oppress trans men? (Hint: Also no)

Did OP say that transmisogyny isn't a real issue, or that trans women shouldn't be allowed to talk about transmisogyny? (Hint: No again)

Did OP say that trans men's oppression is more important than trans women's and deserves to be talked about more? (Hint: Still no)

Did OP say that any issues are exclusive to trans men or trans women and that we have no overlap in our struggles? (Hint: You guessed it- no!)

#transmisogyny #anti-transmasculinity #trans #did i hyperfixate on this for like three hours? you can't prove anything fuck you #also apologies for not including nonbinary data in here! the discourse tends to focus on trans men vs women so that's what i addressed #but if i ever get the energy i will def do a follow up on how the stats look for nonbinary respondents

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lgbtlunaverse · 1 month ago

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I feel like too often people frame Nie Mingjue's issues as ignorance borne from safety. Like, they think that because of his privilege as a sect leader he doesn't know what it's like to be in danger and forced to make hard choices to survive. And I disagree. Strongly.

First of all, Nie Mingjue is very familiar with death not only from war but from. You know. Actively dying since the age of fourteen. Let us not forget Nie Mingjue is dead! Super dead! And maybe he didn't die the exact way he expected to but he did, absolutely, know he was going to die. To act like Nie Mingjue is unfamiliar with the scenario of "do something you find morally reprehensible or die" is to ignore that he has been living that exact scenario and chose death.

Nie Mingjue knows death is a risk for someone like Jin guangyao, in fact he explicitly acknowledges it even in his worst moments like the stairs in chapter 49. Had his issue been ignorance, then he would've responded to Jin Guangyao saying that he's in danger and has to sacrifice others for his own safety with "No you aren't you'll be fine." But he doesn't. He accepts the fact that jgy is in danger with no qualms and says: then you should die.

That's not him betraying his values, those are his values. He is, essentially, pro-suicide. Jgy is like hey I have a moral dilemma what should I do and nmj straight up goes "Kill yourself" and earlier that same chapter when he was faced with a moral dilemma he went "I'm gonna kill myself." He believes the solution to moral dilemmas is suicide! He is extremely consistent about this! When it's pointed out to him that it would have been dangerous for Wen Qing to oppose Wen Ruohan it doesn't phase him because he thinks putting yourself at risk to do the right thing is the only moral choice. The idea that he can only hold this belief because he is himself somehow not in danger, again, requires you to ignore that he is dying the whole time. And it doesn't deter him. He is the idea of self-sacrifice as a moral good taken to its absolute logical extreme. Someone who is ready to die and demands the same from everyone else.

It makes him a very fun case study for fandom, because a lot of fandom spaces also tend to revere self-sacrifice as the ultimate good, and yet we get very uncomfortable when someone starts demanding it of characters we love. Like woah, hold on, that's a bit too far isn't it? Only we the audience get to do that!

#mdzs #mdzs meta #nie mingjue #i got a bit spicy at the end there #one wonders of there is perhaps a theme around sacrifice the story is working with here #what with several of the most relevant and major character relationships centering around sacrifice.#anyway I wonder what nmj thought of Wen Qing (and Wen Ning though the jin kept him alive) sacrificing herself at nightless #I have to imagine he approved. despite disagreeing with her he also approved of mianmian giving up her clan position for wwx+ the wens #so he'd think this was her 'finally doing the right thing'#his approval would've been kinda worthless. As a person who is NOT pro-suicide I think that's fucked up! the sacrifice didn't even work!#but it's diabolical to think of the Wen siblings turning themselves in and nmj being there and *praising* them for it.#unhinged behavior. I need this missing scene stat.#this is just kind of a rephrasing of my 'stop calling nmj a hypocrite' post but with a bit more focus on what exactly his values are #and how his problems stem not from him being inconsistent with those values but the fact that they are pretty fucked up!#and that those fucked up values are not a result of a lack danger but the opposite. the *inevitability* of death #he's going to die so he *has* to believe that's the right thing to do.

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