#well you're the one who has to be anti-semitic for thinking they're jews

[jathun]

... literally how is it this hard to just not buy a game?

[horreurscopes]

So, I could be out-of-bounds here since I think you meant it as dark humor, but what did you mean in the tags of that 'israel-hamas war' post? I suspect you(and op) are criticizing that framing because Israel is obviously demolishing much more than 'Hamas'(and probably doing a terrible job of actually targeting terrorists- they seem content to reduce Gaza to rubble even if the brass of Hamas escapes). I'm guessing that by saying "joining the Israel-Hamas war on the side of Hamas" you mean, if they're going to conflate Palestinians with Hamas unilaterally, then you're saying, whatever the media wants to call Palestinian civilians- you still support them. I am asking anyways though bc, given reports of increasing antisemitic activity in the US and Europe, I am worried about the potential for blurring lines between the cause of Palestinian civilians and the alt-right individuals who are likely masking their antisemitism in the context of being anti-Zionist. Although Israel's government has been the source of Palestinian loss for decades, (it seems to me that) even joking about supporting terrorism is enough to reinforce the persuasion that Israeli/Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs must be mutually-exclusive peoples. I don't think it's fully rational per se(tho I'm not claiming to have all the relevant information myself, and I'm white US American goyim so like- grain of salt-), but I think that existential fear is the incredible hurdle facing Zionist Jews. (Idc too much about the opinions of non-Jewish Zionists bc I don't grant that they are dealing with the same emotional complications at this time, although that doesn't stop me from arguing w my acquaintances abt their callous acceptance of US/Israeli propaganda.) I just think..... isn't it overall harmful to allow anti-semitic rhetoric, even used sarcastically, to enter the genuine humanist cause for Palestinian liberation? Or, have I misunderstood, and you actually are not in opposition to Hamas, or something else I didn't think of?

hi! thank you for approaching the question thoughtfully and with curiosity, i really appreciate it. i was being kind of flippant with that meme, but this is the only ask i'm going to reply to on the matter given that i am neither jewish nor arab, so i'm going to answer in earnest:

hamas is a political resistance movement with an armed wing, much like the black panthers party was, and like the bpp, a large part of the organization is dedicated to social welfare and civic restoration.

they have stated that they are not against judaism, but against the zionist project. they openly support political solutions.

labeling hamas a terrorist group is a propaganda tactic used by the united states and israel to justify the horrors of settler colonization.

hamas is palestine, a part of it, even if palestinians like any other demographic on earth, are not a unified, single-minded people. to declare hamas a separate entity falls prey to the imperialist lie that there is an enemy to fight "fairly" within the people they are displacing and exterminating.

am i rejoicing in the deaths of israelis? of course not. killing civilians and taking civilian hostages is a war crime, whether it is committed by the opresor or the oppressed. the israeli government is not its people, and many jews, within israel as well as in the US, are bravely risking their lives to publicly dissent the criminal acts of the israeli government. all loss of human life is a tragedy.

no one should ever be faced with the choice between annihilation and murderous violence after exhausting all other forms of peaceful protest and being massacred like animals.

but why is it that we consider a resistance group formed within a population with a median age of eighteen a terrorist group, and not the IDF, a US-backed military force with an annual budget of twenty billion dollars?

i am currently reading hamas and civil society in gaza by sara roy to learn more about hamas and the history of israel in palestine. i'll remember to post more excerpts which i am admittedly terrible at.

but all of the information above can be found by reading wikipedia. investigating with duckduckgo searches (not gonna pretend google isn't prioritizing propaganda, to be fair), and reading reliable news coverage like aljazeera and the many journalists who are at risk of, or have lost their lives, reporting on the ground.

i have also appreciated reading posts from @determinate-negation @opencommunion @fairuzfan @ibtisams and @bloglikeanegyptian amongst others

in conclusion:

[spacelazarwolf]

hmmmmmmm i’m real fucking tired of jew haters lying abt me!

let's break this down, shall we?

white trans mascs like spacelazarwolf have no issue calling indigenous people "bone chillingly disturbing" for disagreeing with them.

actually i called what you said antisemitic, because it was. i called what i've witnessed from gentiles in general bone-chillingly disturbing and cruel, and that i've witnessed so much ignorance, hostility, and bloodlust from gentiles. because i keep seeing posts celebrating the massacre that happened on the 7th, and i keep getting anons that tell me "hitler missed one", "the world would be better off without your ilk", "we should have gotten rid of you all ages ago", "die zionists rats *nose emoji*", and a lot of very graphic descriptions of how they would like to rape and kill me. one user, blatantly on their blog, openly said that someone should kill me, and someone said they knew where i lived and could make that happen. that's not disagreeing with me. that is bloodlust.

they pretend to care about racism when trans women engage in it, but have zero issue jumping right to demonic stereotypes about indigenous people who dare to point out that their support of israel is supporting genocide.

hey asshole. I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT YOU.

also. I HAVE BEEN OPEN ABOUT MY CRITICISM OF ISRAEL, MY REFUSAL TO SUPPORT IT AS A STATE, AND MY BELIEF THAT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS GENOCIDE. YOU FUCKING IDIOT.

literally just blatantly lying about a jew's opinion on israel so you can harass and demonize them is, i hate to tell you, antisemitic.

these so called "anti-semitic rants" were me saying jewish people can survive without israel and do not need to colonize or genocide another group of people to survive.

let's give some of the highlights of your posts:

"while you're here hand-wringing about the safety of israelis and spreading the white supremacist lie that they must be in israel to be safe, israel secured its continued existence by just now murdering 500+ parients and doctors under the excuse of 'well hamas is violent and is hiding in there"

'handwringing' do you mean mourning the deaths of peace activists and children? also if you've read literally any of my other posts on the matter, you know i literally talk about how zionists institutions and leadership use jewish safety and antisemitism in the diaspora to bolster support for a jewish state. pointing this out isn't agreeing with it when you do it, why is it when i do it? what could the difference possibly be??

also, there has been no confirmation on who caused the hospital bombing. there are many reports that it was a misfire by one of the groups in gaza, and those are still being investigated. regardless of who fired it, it's still a tragedy. it's still hundreds of innocent lives lost. and it does not change the fact that the lives lost on the 7th were also a tragedy. using this devastating loss of palestinian life as a bludgeon against a diaspora jew for having the audacity to mourn dead jews is disgusting.

"[you] only bring up jewish people of color to argue that israel is actually not a racist project because israel is the only thing stopping jewish people from being exterminated."

literally just lying.

"jewish people in israel are behaving as and acting as white supremacist colonizers of color"

thanks for literally just outright saying that you think the problem is jews, not the state of israel.

"colonizers globally are constantly killing kids"

and therefore the israeli children who died don't matter? are you expecting jewish people to choose between their nieces and nephews and innocent palestinian children who are killed in gaza?

"[spacelazarwolf has] ranted and raved that without israel existing, the jewish people would be genocided. he's appropriated the struggle of indigenous and black people abroad to cry that jewish people aren't welcome in countries like the us, despite living in the us and benefiting from his whiteness and the oppression of indigenous and black people as many other white jewish people do"

i think you've made it pretty clear you're totally fine lying about what i've actually said regarding israel, but the idea that jews are "appropriating the struggle of indigenous and black people abroad" when we talk about experiencing antisemitism in the countries we live in is so???????????? also you make it really clear in this snippet that your issue isn't with israel but with jews in general.

"white jewish people...have been able to exist in relative safety for decades in european countries"

are you actually fucking insane.

"israel's existence has made things more dangerous for jewish people in the middle east and north africa because these are areas that HISTORICALLY had co-existence between religious groups"

nice historical revisionism! swana was safer than christian countries for sure, but it's SO clear to me that you know absolutely nothing about the history of the jews of swana.

"he and israel supporters like him are constantly distracting from the war crimes and terrorism ISRAEL IS COMMITTING by handwringing perpetually about 'but violence is bad and hamas is bad for being violent, the only good palestinians are the ones that are quiet and don't fight back against us when we kill their kids"

sorry, who's "we"? are diaspora jews killing kids? or do you just equate every single jew in the diaspora to israel? also, yet more blatantly lying and claiming i support israel when i repeatedly have stated i haven't! but it's much more convenient to claim i have, because then you can say that i kill kids!

there's a bunch of other times you repeat the lie that i support israel and "advocate for the continued existence of a settler colonizer state and lying and claiming it's the only way for jewish people to be safe" but i won't include all of those bc this post would be VERY long.

"israel supporters are really out here arguing that palestinians need to hold hands with their genociders and forgive them and find peace - completely ignoring that for centuries there was peace between religious groups in the region and israel destroyed it"

goyim being embarrassingly ignorant of jewish history outside of a warped view of the holocaust? i am shocked!

"the supposed civilians attacked turned out to be iof soldiers so yeah actually it's fucked for you to say. they shouldn't attack people who colonize and massacre palestinian people for their day job"

blatantly supporting the massacre of 1,300 israelis, including children.

"all they can do is fight back or die, while israelis grab their passport and fly back to the us or some other european country and wait for israel to finish their genocide so they can go back"

feel like i don't need to explain why. this is conspiracy theory levels of antisemitic.

"the crying and bellyaching that if the jewish people don't have israel, they'll have to go back to countries that are hostile to them is not one i have sympathy for"

yeah we know you don't have sympathy for jews, that's very clear.

"jewish people, black people, and indigenous people all still live there and survive and fight back and thrive in solidarity together. and they DON'T participate in genocide against other groups of people"

yet again making the blatant assertion that it is JEWS who are committing genocide, and not the israeli government. also let's not pretend that. there's always been perfect solidarity between our communities. jews have not always been the best allies to indigenous people and black people, and vice versa.

"there are other places to turn to if you had any interest in NOT participating in western hegemonic white supremacy. but instead of staying and fighting and existing and thriving with other marginalized people who are at HIGHER risk than you in these countries, you argue that somehow jewish people should be exempt from this work that every other marginalized community does"

shouldn't have to point out that i don't argue that, but also this is, again, conspiracy theory levels of fucked up.

"bonkers to watch israel-supporters screaming and crying that if they don't colonize and genocide palestinians then jewish people can't safely exist"

yikes.

"if it were remotely true, israelis wouldn't have pulled out their dual citizenship passports and gone back to europe and the us to wait at a distance for their government to finish the genocide they started in 1948"

again, yikes.

there is a choice outside colonization - you can just fucking leave and go back to your home countries that are welcoming you with open arms cuz you still have dual citizenship. you don't have to commit genocide colonize people to exist."

more yikes.

"spacelazarwolf really wants to try and argue that they can't stop colonizing palestine cuz if they do, they have to go back to - checks notes - countries where a ton of people still live"

who is "they"?

"for some reason [spacelazarwolf] thinks that to avoid going through [genocide], jewish people need to be allowed to commit genocide themselves and eradicate palestinians"

once again lying abt me, and also openly saying that they believe it is jews who are committing genocide.

"fucking bonkers that he thinks he somehow has the right to commit genocide and colonize to avoid the situation other jewish people, indigenous people, and black people worldwide find themselves in. cowardly bitch baby behavior actually. like i'm sorry lots of other groups of colonized people, who have been subject to genocide and violence, and racism and are still undergoing it, has managed to NOT colonize other groups of people for their own gain."

bc jews are just inherently more evil than other marginalized ppl, right? we're just more prone to being selfish and hurting people? we're just sniveling whiny bitch babies who will turn around and stab you in the back, right?

"screaming and crying that 'we need to be allowed to genocide palestinians or otherwise we have to go back to the us, where we as white jewish people never have to actually deal with the things indigenous and black people there do' is disgusting genocidal behavior. the thought of actually being in solidarity with colonized people is repulsive to people like spacelazarwolf - that's why they all seek to justify colonial projects instead."

again, conspiracy theory levels of fucked.

at no point do i engage in anti-semitism. all i ever criticize is israel.

don't feel like i need to point out that this is not true.

he has repeatedly stated that israel has to exist, otherwise jewish people have to go back to the us, where indigenous people are being genocided.

cool lie! also fucked up thing to say!

i've said nothing about jewish pain and trauma. in fact, i have said on numerous occasions that jewish pain and trauma are very real and that they DO NOT justify. colonization.

mmmmmmmmmm nah. "whiny little bitch babies" is not saying that "jewish pain and trauma are very real." also oops you accidentally did dual loyalty again.

but spacelazarwolf is so rabidly racist he immediately began fearmongering about the bloodlust savage knocking at his door trying to kill him.

i'm on desktop or i would include that mike wazowski standing meme bc genuinely what the fuck.

anyway, i have no doubt that their support palestinians is genuine. that's great. but it is also incredibly clear that they hate jews, and that is going to be a huge detriment to their activism for palestinians, and they're not the only one this is happening with. people need to figure that shit out on their own instead of harassing and lying about jews online and perpetuating this kind of violently antisemitic rhetoric. bc this is like beyond fucked. i am tired of gentiles blatantly lying abt me so they can get away with saying horrendously antisemitic things to and about me. get your fucking shit together.

[aterimber]

Hi!

I saw your posts in the tags about deleting all reblogs! I went thru your blog to see what was wrong and it looks like Zionists have been harassing you about antisemitism until you stop talking about Palestine.

In so sorry about that and don't fall for it!!

To clear down things up: nativenews isn't antisemitic. They're pro-Palestine and support a decolonized solution which Zionists HATE and that's why they're saying nativenews in antisemitic. Zionists are calling ANYONE who doesn't support Israel or a 2state solution an "unsafe" person for Jews which doesn't even make sense.

That'd be like if Americans said "you're anti-american and unsafe to my well being because you think native Americans deserve equal rights. Natives obviously just want rights to get revenge on us, how could you possibly suggest supporting them."

That doesn't even make sense and it's obviously just a racist excuse for Americans to keep their privileges over natives right?

Same exact situation is happening.

Jewish Zionists like to pretend Israel is a Jewish state but it isn't. There are Christians and Palestinians and Muslims who live in Israel too. It isn't specifically anti-Semitic to criticize a government, regardless of it's population.

People criticize the USA all the time and who are the only people that get mad about it? Patriots and racists who want to ignore their problems, right? And should we stop talking about those things cuz they're uncomfortable? Course not. They are the Reason we talk about it, right?

Zionists are the same. And the doubt they are planting in you about your voice is their goal. One less voice speaking up for Palestine helps theirs get louder.

Please don't delete your reblogs.

Nothing you've done has helped out Jewish lives in danger JUST because they are Jewish. And that's what antisemitism is.

Antisemitism is not when you have opinions Jewish zionists don't like or reblog from people that Jewish zionists don't like, I promise.

Hi Anon!

Thank-you for the message!

Also, thank-you very much for that explaination. What you said definitely makes sense to me. As I've said, I'm not very knowledgable about what has been happening and was only attempting to help, which it had been pointed out to me that was not what happened.

I'm attempting to learn so I can make informed decisions going forward and listen to the people who I was attempting to help.

To clear things up: I am against murder. Period. (Yes this includes animals, but that's not the point of this post)

If you are pro-murder, I do NOT agree with you. Unfollow me, block me, whatever.

This is why I felt sick when I was told the post I reblogged from NativeNews could possibly get people killed. That is why I went to the extreme lengths of taking down every other post I had reblogged mentioning Israel and Palenstine and wrote the apology post.

I was trying to spread information to stop people from dying, not contribute to it.

[joemerl]

Okay! So, a few days ago, a pro-Palestinian picture came on my dash with the "river to the sea" slogan. This naturally led to me debating a lot of people in the comments, one of whom, @hvly asked me to back up my assertions with sources. I decided to do this in a separate post because a.) makes it easier to post a bunch of links, b.) the original artist took down the picture, and c.) I recently read how many on the pro-Palestinian side lack a lot of context on the conflict, so I figured this could serve as a general resource.

(Not linking to the original artist, but if he sees this, I do apologize if it seemed like I was attacking you, or if all the arguing just stressed you out. It was a cute picture and I trust that you didn't mean anything by it, but my point here is that a lot of well-intentioned people don't get the nuances of this issue.)

I'm not sure which of my arguments Hvly wanted evidence for, so I'll just try to be thorough.

Why is the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" slogan anti-Semitic?

Because it is a call for the elimination of Israel. A two-state solution would involve Palestine and Israel in the space between the (Jordan) River to the (Mediterranean) Sea. If Palestine takes up that whole area, what happened to Israel and its 10 million inhabitants, 7 million of whom are Jewish? I don't think Palestine is gonna give them citizenship, in case the October 7th massacre didn't make that clear.

It's also worth noting that "will be free" is not the only variation on this chant. Especially early on, it was often "Palestine is Arab" or "is Islamic." Can't really deny that those are about excluding Jews (and/or Arab Christians, Druze, etc.)

Put another way: imagine if in the United States, we popularized the phrase "from the Canadian border to South America, the U.S. will be free!" Sounds great, right? Nothing wrong with freedom! But, wait...how do Mexico and Central America fit into this geography? And oh, yeah, the people promoting this slogan are the KKK, and the first draft was that the U.S. would be "white." Would you pooh-pooh a Hispanic person who found this kinda racist? Then why are Jews different?

I appreciate that many Westerners want this phrase to be about freeing Palestinians from Israel's supposed occupation (we'll get to that in a minute). But it's not. It's about killing Jews.

Are you sure? Has Hamas ever SAID they want to kill all Jews/Israelis?

Yes. Right here. Right after they killed, raped and terrorized them on a Jewish holiday.

It's also in their official charter. Contrast the Israeli Declaration of Independence, which calls for peace between it and its neighbors. (They declared war the day after it was signed.)

But isn't Israel trying to genocide the Palestinians too?

"Genocide" means that you're trying to kill every member of a race within a certain area. So if Israel wants to "genocide" the Palestinians, dropping pamphlets warning them to seek shelter seems like a poor strategy.

Israel is not trying to kill civilians. They're trying to kill Hamas—which, as established, does want to commit genocide. Unfortunately, this is urban warfare, and Hamas' strategy is to use Palestinian civilians as human shields. So yes, a lot of Palestinian civilians are dying. That doesn't make Israel the bad guy. At least 1.5 million German civilians died in World War II, but that doesn't mean the Allies were wrong to overthrow the Nazis, let alone that they were trying to "genocide" them.

But isn't Hamas only trying to throw off Israel's occupation?

Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005. That was 18 years ago. A child born the day of the disengagement would now be in college, listening to people protest the non-existent occupation.

Israel didn't even withdraw due to a peace treaty; they had no promise that this would stop Palestinian terrorism. They withdrew in the desperate hope that it would bring peace. Instead, the Palestinians elected Hamas, which, as we've ascertained, wants to genocide all Jews.

What would a ceasefire mean?

In the short term, Israel would stop bombing Gaza. Good for the Palestinians, in theory. But Hamas would remain in power, and immediately start gathering strength again. Which means that within a few years, they'd attack Israel again, and there'll be another war, killing people on both sides.

Also, the 100+ Israeli hostages—including women and children—will remain in Gaza. After all, if Israel gives Hamas what they want for nothing, why should they send them back?

Anyway, that's all I have time for. If anyone still wants to argue, I'll be incommunicado until at least tomorrow night. Have a peaceful Saturday.

[gryficowa]

We'll laugh, he tries to push me, but it fails

My grandmother was born a few years after the end of the war, and the second one wasn't even Polish, but French, so yes, I'm trying to push, but it doesn't work very well

Plus I'm Kashubian, so even better

The Kashubian griffin is waiting to show off his knowledge of Poland

Yes, yes, because being pro-Israel and saying that Palestinians are not called terrorists, and yet insisting that Israel should stay, even though the country was created in such a way that the US put people of Jewish origin in this place, and they started attacking Palestinians and gradually depriving them of any rights because they are Jews and they can, because if you criticize, you are an anti-Semite

I'll probably be an anti-Semite because I criticize a Jew, it's a pity that he showed his xenophobic side, because I'm sorry, but your origin doesn't change anything, if you're trash, you're trash, isn't that what equality should look like? On not justifying evil just because of its origin? And yes, we have reached such absurdity, that if Israel or the Christian church commits genocides, should we seriously accept it because they are discriminated against? Well, this is no longer a fight against discrimination, it is a fight to ensure that those discriminated against can go unpunished in such situations

Do you know who is from the discriminated group? Me, I have ASD, I'm aroace (Queer) and I'm a fucking national minority in my country because I'm fucking Kashubian

In addition, I have fucking social anxiety, but I have to endure a lot, in 2020 my country created a campaign against queer people, and on top of that, the church took part in signing the "Stop-LGBT" petition and pro-life people with vans were driving and tearing all kinds of disgusting things on the topic of queer people (Fuck, I mentioned that my country did this, but no, I'm probably too privileged because yes)

I live with my mother, my sister and her daughter, because they don't want to hire me, because fuck "They don't have accommodations for people like me", but I still hear them calling me a freeloader on the Internet

And now the Palestinians, who don't even have anything to survive because Israel is fucking taking it from them, and are victims of terrorist attacks (But they're Jews, so don't say anything, or you'll be an anti-Semite, classic, right?), they don't even have work, because Israel loves to take away their freedom to move, because there has never been fucking segregation in history, and if they rebel, they are terrorists, a lot of people there are fucking starving because Israel is stingy

People from Palestine are treated like shit, but go on and say that they persecute Jews because they support Palestine and despise what fucking Israel is, and then write that Hitler would be proud that you criticize Jews for what they write (And yes, a lot I have mentioned many times that there are a lot of Jews behind Palestine and I will say one thing: You are fucking great, you have courage and you stand on the side of the weaker, unfortunately, I see how other Jews laugh at you in the comments, which is sad, but don't give up, because remember, there is strength in the masses)

(Mabel for those who fight for Palestine despite being attacked in the comments by other Jews)

Unfortunately, many such wonderful people are lost among Israelis who are happy about the deaths of children and attack everyone for anti-Semitism

So yes, I could write mainly about myself, but I can't think only about myself (Unfortunately, communication problems are difficult, especially when you try to describe your thoughts), but I have to add this, simply one Jew being pro-Israel will not hide other Jews who are for Palestine, one xenophobe Jew will not cover those who have a lot of empathy, if we criticize Jews, it is those from Israel, people outside Israel are not to blame for all this, all we can hope is that somewhere in Israel there is an Israeli who is not happy with what his country is doing and is fed up with other Israelis using anti-Semitism as a defensive shield every time someone talks about Israel's crimes, Unfortunately, I haven't met such a person yet and I'm starting to doubt whether this hope is false, because none of us wants to believe that the world is black and white, that there are no people in a specific place who are the only ones who don't like what they do. their country

Seriously, I saw Jews who are for Palestine, but many of them were from outside Israel, so I'm afraid this hope is false

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

We should be honest. Liberal democracy is an experiment. And a very recent one, and a very recent one.

So, like all new ideas, it can go off the rails very easily, if the core of what made it what it is is not maintained. And I think the reason that many of us have been speaking up about this for some time now, and the reason I wrote my book, and many other people have been talking about this, is I think we are abandoning the things that made us who we are, and we're abandoning some of the things which we ultimately, after centuries of struggle and bloodshed and violence and disagreement, we actually were starting to reach a place where we were identifying some of the memes, as you like to call them, that work in the type of society that we want to create.

The idea that people should be treated on the content of their character was a meme that was developed through a lot of pain and a lot of suffering and a lot of violence and a lot of discrimination and a lot of awful treatment of, in that particular case black people, but if you go to other parts of the West, there would have been other ways of conceptualizing that that still exist, right, and we eventually came to the idea that actually, that ancient thing that is so hard-wired into us - the tribalism, the, you know, call it racism, call it xenophobia, whatever it's, just ingroup-outgroup, right - that thing that is hardwired into us, we have an intellectual idea that can sit on top of that, that can mitigate a lot of that.

That's incredible. It's an incredible-- I mean, this idea doesn't exist in China. The idea that all ethnic groups are to be treated equally does not exist in Russia. Not even remotely. Russia is, to a large extent, a multi-ethnic country. It has large Muslim populations, it has large ethnic minority populations. The idea that they are the same as everybody else would seem absurd to anybody. Most parts of the world, the idea that gay people should be treated the same as straight people? You would be laughed out of the room. People don't like hearing this in the west because they can't process that reality.

But it's like, you know, this endlessly joked about "Queers for Palestine" thing. They will throw you off a fucking roof. That's what they're going to do to you, right. And from that extreme, you can work your way down. Most of the rest of the world, they're not going to throw you off a roof, but you're not going to be treated equally.

So, we struggled, and we fall, and we went through a lot of horror to get to that place. And the symptom of that unraveling that I'm deeply troubled by, is that we are doing the exact opposite.

DEI is the exact opposite of that idea. And it's embedded in every institution now. The idea that you can pick people, you can say this group is got better outcomes than that group, that means-- and we need to treat these people better than these other people, right. It doesn't matter which way you play that dynamic, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you if you put black people at the top, white people at the bottom, brown people at the top black people-- it doesn't matter how you play that game, it always leads to bad outcomes.

And the reason that anti-Semitism now is becoming much more prominent is it's a natural reflection of that worldview. It's a reflection of the worldview in which successful people are successful by virtue of privilege or corruption or abuse of others. And unsuccessful groups, or groups that don't do as well in certain fields, are there because they have been abused, because they've been taken advantage of.

Once you implement that, every successful minority is going to be in the firing line, whether that's Jews, whether that's Asian-Americans, whether that's African-Americans who are first generation from Africa, right - they're incredibly successful in America - you're going to see all these groups being attacked in some way whether that's in words or other ways, because we are breaking the thing that made us who we are.

[ Full episode: https://youtu.be/x4Ha8yeXuU8 ]

[cryptometaphor]

Or like, we're discussing inceldom and how it relates to socialism because all this Kamala talk really is just code for incels when they say weird.

ACP Admin: Incels are inherently reactionary. Like. I'm not saying there isn't truth to what they say. I'm a man, I know it sucks. But like...

Me: So you'll cater to racists, Anti-Semitism, even xenophobia, but not incels. Why is that? What's the difference between saying Jews suck vs women suck?

ACP Admin: Well for one, women don't own the banks. Secondly, there's a difference supporting nationalism for self-determination vs just blatant hatred because you're mad about your unfair circumstances.

Sarah: I hate women too. I do think it's our neoliberal upbringing that's made them so atrocious, but misandry is a real thing. Honestly I think the only good woman has to have circumstances that circumvent their misandry nature. Like being born with disability or autism.

Me: I am fine with planned eugenics. Reverse eugenics. Uglos, downs syndrome, Hellen Keller motherfuckers... All get to reproduce. Normies no.

Sarah: lol!

Me: Some exceptions like Liz. She's brain damaged but doesn't get to reproduce anyway.

Sarah: Ruthless

ACP Admin: Most women don't even want to reproduce that's the problem the west is having.

Me: Yeah until they're 30. Than it's WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD MEN GONE?!

Sarah: Imma be like 60 by the time I reproduce at this rate.

Me: Ohhhh it'll build character for our little hellspawn. He'll cut through the cobwebs of your canal fighting off velociraptors and shit. He'll be a warrior. With like ten different kinds of autism.

Sarah: My vagina has cobwebs and velociraptors? lol

Me: Well not right NOW I'm still putting it in there regardless

Sarah: You better

ACP Admin: I'd rather not think about your vagina or for that matter either of you having sex. I hate both of you lol

Me: Under communism, there won't be onlyfans. Only haters. Where like, the kulaks are tied to a chair clockwork orange style forced to watch me and Sarah have intercourse and they don't have sex. You know, cause they're too busy being tied to the cuck chair.

Incel friend I invited: Horrifying lol

ACP Admin: Porn as a punishment isn't the W you think it is Jim.

Sarah: This is true. There's already humiliation porn.

Me: Fuck. I really can't comprehend the mind of a gooner.

Sarah: I like that though.

Me: I like you. Sarah: I like you.

Incel: This was about who the fuck is gonna like ME

Me: We will get you a wife.

Incel: You say that...

Me: I mean... Sarah: At least under socialism you'd get free shit.

Incel: "You're dying alone, here's a free t-shirt."

Sarah: Esnackly.

ACP Admin: God, don't say ensackly like Jim does lol

Me: Under the labor theory of value, women would have to flirt with YOU

Incel: How?

Me: If they don't, they would owe you reimbursement for the effort of skibidi-rizzing. Why do you think I tell everyone to pay me crypto? It's unrealized earnings.

Sarah: Couldn't the same be said for women if they have to endure being flirted with by a sub8?

Incel: YEAH wait, I'm agreeing with a woman...fuck

Me: Ok but maybe that's the trick. See, they Spiderman point at each other of "you owe me for bothering to look in your general direction" "well you owe me for giving me the ick" and they both slap their phones punching numbers of how much crypto the other knows them, and in all of the dialectics... They make out. Make love.

Sarah: Just... Just gonna use dialectics like the word Smurf ok lol

Incel: Not everyone thinks like you do Jim

Me: THEY SHOULD

ACP Admin: Jim encapsulates Steiner egoism.

Me: I mean at the very least you gotta admit I'm bringing incels into the stratosphere of legitimate dialogue. Not just "there's plenty of fish in the sea" more like from the river to the sea.

Incel: Inshallah

ACP Admin: What if some incel wanted Sarah?

Sarah: Yeah hon lol

Me: I own you, fuck them.

Incel: OWNERSHIP?! UNDER COMMUNISM?!

ACP Admin: Tbf, communism says you can't own private property, not private things. Like, if someone came and stole my GameCube, that's still theft.

Sarah: I'm a thing. Me: My thing. The greatest thing ever.

Sarah: You're my thing too. Me: I love you.

Sarah: I love you more.

Incel: This still doesn't make me any promises. Like this is fun and all but...

Me: Well dude, like Sarah said. You'd at least get free shit and a better life and the struggle wouldn't be so hard. Like, a lot of what makes loneliness so unbearable is the facade you gotta put on meanwhile. You think I'm bitter towards my exes because I can't find anybody? No. I'm bitter because without saying the words, they say it in their actions "dance nigger. Dance for the camera of life where you work, feel the pressures of a self loathing, self deprecating society, every moment of every day makes you wanna do acts of terrorism, and something so simple as another human being loving you isn't guaranteed." Like, different circumstances wouldn't make me so bitter. Like, do I sound bitter right now?

Sarah: I mean you do sound kinda bitter lol

Incel: For real.

Me: I'm a mean guy what can I say lol. But the fact remains. I got my friends here, I got a girlfriend...

Sarah: I better be more than just a girlfriend

Me: Oh... Yes ms commissar lol

Sarah: MRS commissar... (We're both laughing)

ACP Admin: (groans in disgust)

Me: What I'm trying to say man is if we as a civilization threw GameCubes, and booze, and opportunities your way. Well, the red pill would be correct. They're always saying oh just lift bro, have hobbies bro, we need a controlled economy that'll provide you those things. Not pretend you. You're not gonna get banned from your call of duty servers, you're going to have a good job, you're going to have therapy you can get for free, you're going to have...

Sarah: I agree with all of this but uhh... YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN ANY OF THAT JIM lol

Incel: This is true. You've made it plainly clear you want the least amount of people to have.

Me: I just don't think at the end of the day you'd accept it even if it was offered to you. Like maybe not you personally. But like look at Liz. It was right in the palm of her hands. Dropped the ball, walked away, didn't look back. People wanna be miserable? I'll give them something to be miserable about. I love democracy.

Sarah: She scratched a liberal, and a fascist bled.

Me: Esnackly.

Incel: Well I wouldn't drop the ball

Me: THAN YOU'LL BE FINE

Incel: I'M NOT FINE this is literally just Joel Osteen preaching with more autism.

Sarah: Oh God don't say that...

Me: You think I'm like Joel Osteen?

ACP Admin: Oh you did it now lol

Sarah: God damn it Axel! Now Jim is gonna suck your dick!

ACP Admin: Guess he won't be an incel anymore

Incel: I don't wanna get fucked by a guy lol

Me: I'm not gonna suck his dick lol

Sarah: Better not. That mouth belong to me.

ACP Admin: Jim we've discussed this before. Will you admit you're at least open to the idea of homosexuality?

Axel: Why is everyone trying to get Jim to fuck me?

Me: I know right?

ACP Admin: I'M SAYING whenever Jim's heterosexuality is put into question, he never actually proves he wouldn't do gay shit. He just kind of deflects.

Me: It's called I'm comfortable in my sexuality and don't feel the need to prove anything.

ACP Admin: Ok than just say it. "No, I wouldn't fuck Axel."

Me: Well I mean if I were gay, Axel is a handsome man.

Axel: GOD DAMN IT

Sarah: Axel, take back what you said about the Osteen thing or imma kick you lol

Axel: The fuck did I do?!

Me: I'm not gonna fuck Axel babe lol

Sarah: You'd be kissing on me and whisper with your lips "later..." Winking at him from behind. You're that guy lol

Axel: Ahhhhhhh

Me: Nah. I'm happy with what I have. I know you'd never leave me.

ACP Admin: Ok see, again, I reiterate... You never say "No, I wouldn't do that", you say "I wouldn't do that because..."

Me: It's the autism

ACP Admin: No it's not. You're just a slut lol

Sarah: You are kind of a slut hon lol

Me: I'm your slut doh. Sarah: Oh I know lol

Axel: I feel violated. Me: Oh you'll be fine.

[jay0fspad3s]

Hi I'm a porn blog but I'm also Jewish so I'm answering your support question anonymously.

I have a few pieces of advice, and I think other people will have other advice. I may ask more than once. The first and most important thing you can and should do is, if you can, ASK YOUR JEWISH FRIENDS HOW THEY ARE DOING, and be a human being who can listen and emphasize with them. For context, after the massacre I went to a vigil at my temple, which had politicians there. The Rabbi asked everyone who had either lost family or had family in the IDF to stand up. A third of the congregation stood up. From my personal experience, most of my Jewish friends have family who are impacted; only one lost a family member. Even if you don't want to support Israel or the Israel army, understand that the country has conscription and reserves who can be called up. You do not need to take a political position to comfort people who are hurt. I'm doing a lot of emotional labor for my friends and I see a lot of Jews saying things like "I wish more of my goyim (non-Jewish) friends would check up on me." It costs you $0 to say "hi. I know a lot is going on in Israel, are you okay?"

Whenever stuff like this kicks off, anti-Semitism and islamophobia skyrocket, so you may want to check on your Muslim friends as well. You asked about Jews specifically so I'm going to focus on that.

It's not unreasonable to call your local synagogue and ask how you can help support your local Jewish community. You may or may not be welcome depending on the security situation. If you're asking about charities, I'd very strongly recommend either very accredited charities or asking a synagogue about charity drives. There's a lot of social media disinformation out there so I'd be very wary of donating money to an organization you've never heard of that claims they're helping.

This is a little more controversial, I think, because it's hard for me to be a-political here, but you should also understand what you're advocating for in what you ask for. I'm going to freely admit I have a bias here.

If you're going to engage in political advocacy, please understand what you are advocating for. Let me give you a couple of examples.

There currently is a depressing amount of debate about if the international community should call for a cease fire, or not. The argument to call for a cease fire is that the loss of Palestinian life is unacceptable. The argument against calling for a cease fire is that Israel can only realistically secure the release of hostages via military intervention or threat of military intervention.

Understand what Hamas' strategy is. Hamas wants to maximize human suffering in the Gaza strip so that the international community demands Israel stop fighting. If this happens and Hamas still has "gains" from their attack, the general consensus is that they will do this again. There can't be hostages in Hamas custody when a cease fire is declared, or Hamas will believe they have won and they should do this again. So if you want to advocate for something, I think you should keep the demand to free the hostages first in your minds.

Two more personal opinions in "know what you are advocating for." You should understand the implications of peace deals that groups are proposing and not support deals that don't align with your beliefs. I'm 1948, neither Jews nor Arabs in mandatory Palestine would ever accept a one state solution if the other party lived there. This has never changed. A Free Palestine, "from the river to the sea", means "a Palestine without Jews". There is no serious proposal on the table for a harmonious one state solution that has popular support in the region. That's not what people actually involved in the politics of the region hear when you chant that. Someone is going to argue with me about this, and it's true that Jews aren't a monolith, but the "secular democracy one state solution" plan that people would like was overwhelmingly rejected by both sides in 1948 and the relationship has gotten substantially worse since then. People are absolutely trying to bridge that gap. It hasn't happened. I'm not going to tell you what to advocate for. If you want "an Israel without Jews", I probably don't want to be your friend, but you don't know me. I don't want to exterminate the Palestinians, either, so I'm not gonna be your friend if you advocate for that. All I'm trying to say is understand what you're advocating for, and make sure you center that in your messaging.

The last thing I want to say is that you should think about why we have Israel and what it says about the world, and what we can change at home. Israel accepts Jewish refugees from pretty much anywhere. I'm a Jew in America. If America decides that they're going to get rid of the 7+ million of us who live here, the Israeli government will do everything in its power (probably not literally) to get me to Israel safely, and will let me resettle there. Compare this to basically every other fucking nation on the planet. We (America) have hundreds of thousands of people on the southern border waiting in camps and shantytowns to claim refugee status. Look at how Jordan and Lebanon treat their Palestinian refugees. Ukrainian refugees are doing better than Syrian refugees, but I don't think they're doing well, exactly. Look at how the world deals with migration, especially from people we don't like. So what I'm saying is that I think the best thing we can do for peace is make it so that every nation in the world is safe for basically anyone to live if they need to flee their home. That's something you can advocate for at home.

I hope that makes sense.

Thank you so so much for this!!! I will definitely check up on my Jewish friends literally after I'm done with these messages. My childhood best friend's family is Jewish and his grandma is like another grandparent to me and I've been meaning to see how she's been doing in general anyway. I also have given donations to the local synagogue before, so I could probably call them or even ask my friend's grandma if she knows anything I can do, and maybe I can ask them about charity drives and such I can donate to when I get paid next week. I'm always happy to donate to those who need it when I have the money

I'm also glad to hear about arguments against a one-state solution. I was considering that both sides may be unwilling to coexist with each other in a single state due to the decades of conflict with each other, but I haven't done enough research into a two-state solution to really have a fully formed opinion. I definitely have been withholding a full opinion until I have more information (which in a previous post that blew up I was writing about some conclusions I was drawing that were worded badly and incorrect regardless, and I asked to be corrected on if I was wrong, I learned a bunch of stuff from about Zionism and some Jewish history and I now think that it's good that a place like Israel exists, even if the situation with Palestine is so so complicated)

I live in the US too and I've been yelling about the detention centers at the southern border for years now, it's so appalling and genuinely terrifies me to know that human beings are being treated so poorly, even if I know historically stuff like this has happened before

You definitely made sense and I'm so so grateful for your response <3

[jraker4]

@thedandeliongarden

Well, if you consciously think 'I am not anti-semitic', it must be true, right? After all, no one who has ever been bigoted has thought anything other than 'I hate x group of people because I hate them'. You're in the clear! Meanwhile, back in the world that is *isn't* concerned with your virtue signaling, if anyone else said to you 'until recently, I had respect for (insert cultural/religious/racial group here), but I don't anymore,' you would have (rightly!) thought 'wow, what a bigoted thing to say!' Or actually, it's pretty clear that you're the sort who would then hurry on to say, 'Maybe usually, but this time it's true, there are reasons!' and then go on to detail those reasons. Based on your acknowledged profound ignorance of Jewish religion and culture, but whatever. Meanwhile, once again back in the world, if someone said to you 'I dislike (insert cultural/religious/racial group here), but let me explain, there are *reasons* why they're so bad!' you would (rightly!) think 'hey, this is a bigot who has had the thought 'wait, am I a bigot?' and thought 'no way, not me!'

With anyone else, you would be profoundly skeptical of the claim that one can be free of unexamined bias based on self-assessment. You'd be right to be skeptical of that claim! I can tell, by the way you speak and express ideas, that you run in at least some leftist, progressive circles, and I KNOW you've been exposed to the criticisms of 'I don't see color!' for example. But not you, though, amirite? You're *different*. You care so much more about your own pronouncements about Jews than you do actually learning about Judaism in general or Israel in particular that you couldn't even be bothered to look up a foundational, thousands-of-years-old Jewish statement to try and understand what it means. And even when you fucked it up, instead of just copping to it, even to the extent of 'damn, my bad', it's got more patting yourself on the back and blaming the people you've misinterpreted! You're an antisemite. Israel has a fascism problem. Two things can be true at the same time. It's not complicated, you're just invested in dancing around it because a bigot who wants respectability will get real nimble on their feet in conversations like this.

(Hey, bro, don't take this too harsh! Be more chill! Fucking bigoted jackass.)

On being Jewish, and traumatized (It’s been 5 months and I want to talk):

Judaism is a joyous religion. So much of our daily practice is to focus us on the things that are good. I know that there’s a joke that all our holidays can be summed up as “they tried to kill us. We survived – let’s eat!”, and you might think that holidays focused on attempts at killing us might be somber, but they’re really not. Most are celebrated in the sense of, “we’re still here, let’s have a party!” When I think about practicing Judaism, the things I think about make me happy.

But I think a lot of non-Jews don’t necessarily see Judaism the same way. I think in part it’s because we do like to kvetch, but I think a lot of it is because from the outside it’s harder to see the joy, and very easy to see the long history of suffering that has been enacted on the Jewish people. From the inside, it’s very much, “we’re still here, let’s party” and from the outside it’s, “how many times have they tried to kill you? Why are you celebrating? They tried to KILL YOU!”

And I want to start with that because a lot of the rest of this is going to be negative. And I don’t want people to read it and wonder why I still want to be Jewish. I want to be Jewish because it makes me happy. My problem isn’t with being Jewish, it’s with how Jews are treated.

What I really wanted to write about is being Jewish and the trauma that’s involved with that right now.

First, I want to talk about Israeli Jews. I can’t say much here because I’m not Israeli, nor do I have any close friends or family that are Israeli. But if I’m going to be talking about the trauma Jews are experiencing right now, I can’t not mention the fact that Israeli Jews (and Israelis that aren’t Jewish as well, but that’s not my focus here) are dealing with massive amounts of it right now. It’s a tiny country – virtually everyone has a friend or family member that was killed or kidnapped, or knows someone who does. Thousands of rockets have been fired at Israel in the last few months – think about the fact that the Iron Dome exists and why it needs to. Terror attacks are ongoing; I feel like there’s been at least one every week since October. Thousands of people are displaced from their homes, either because of the rocket fire, or because their homes and communities were physically destroyed in the largest pogrom in recent history – the deadliest single day for Jews since the Holocaust ended. If that’s not trauma inducing, I don’t know what is.

And there is, of course, the generational trauma. And I think Jewish generational trauma is interesting because it’s so layered. Because it’s not just the result of one trauma passed down through the generations. Every 50-100 years, antisemitism intensifies, and so very frequently the people experiencing a traumatic event were already suffering from the generational trauma that their grandparents or great grandparents lived through. And those elders were holding the generational trauma from the time before that. And so on.

And because it happens so regularly, there’s always someone in the community that remembers the last time. We are never allowed the luxury of imagining that we are safe. We know what happened before, and we know that it happened again and again and again. And so we know that it only makes sense to assume it will happen in the future. The trauma response is valid. I live in America because my great grandparents lived in Russia and they knew when it was time to get the hell out in the 1900s. And the reason they knew that is because their grandparents remembered the results of the blood libels in the 1850s. How can we heal when the scar tissue keeps us safe?

I look around now and wonder if we’ll need to run. We have a plan. I repeat, my family has a plan for what to do if we need to flee the country due to religious persecution. How can that possibly be normal? And yet, all the Jewish families I know have similar plans. It is normal if you’re Jewish. Every once in a while I see someone who isn’t Jewish talk about making plans to leave because they’re LGBTQ or some other minority and the question always seems to be, “should I make a plan?” It astounds me every time. The Jewish answer is that you need to have a plan and the only question is, “when should I act?” Sometimes our Jewish friends discuss it at play dates. Where will you go? What are the triggers to leave? No one wants to go any earlier then they have to. Everyone knows what the price of holding off too long might be.

I want to keep my children safe. When do I induct them into the club? When do I let my sweet, innocent kids know that some people will hate them for being Jewish? When do I teach them the skills my parents and grandparents taught me? How to pass as white, how to pass as Christian, knowing when to keep your mouth shut about what you believe. When do I tell them about the Holocaust and teach them the game “would this person hide me?” How hard do I have to work to remind them that while you want to believe that a person would hide you, statistically, most people you know would not have? Who is this more traumatic for? Them, to learn that there is hatred in the world and it is directed at them, or me, to have to drive some of the innocence out of my own children’s eyes in order to make sure they are prepared to meet the reality of the world?

And the reality of the world is that it is FULL of antisemitism. There’s a lot of…I guess I’d call it mild antisemitism that’s always present that you just kinda learn to ignore. It’s the sort of stuff that non-Jews might not even recognize as antisemitic until you explain it to them, just little micro-aggressions that you do your best to ignore because you know that the people doing it don’t necessarily mean it, it’s just the culture we live in. It can still hurt though. I like to compare it to a bruise: you can mostly ignore it, but every once in a while something (more blatant antisemitism) will put a bit to much pressure on it and you remember that you were already hurting this whole time.

On top of the background antisemitism, there’s more intense stuff. And usually the most intense, mask off antisemitism comes from the right. This makes sense, in that a lot of right politics are essentially about hating the “other” and what are Jews if not Western civilizations oldest type of “other”? On the one hand, I’ve always been fortunate enough to live in relatively liberal areas so this sort of antisemitism has felt far away and impersonal – they hate everybody, and I’m just part of everybody. On the other hand, until recently I’ve always considered this the most dangerous source of antisemitism. This is the antisemitism that leads to hate crimes, that leads to synagogue shootings. This is the reason why my synagogue is built so that there is a long driveway before you can even see the building, and that driveway is filled with police on the high holidays. This is the reason why my husband and I were scared to hang a mezuzah in our first apartment (and second, and third). For a long time, this was the antisemitism that made me afraid.

But the left has a problem with antisemitism too. And it has always been there. Where the right hates the “other”, the left hates the “privileged/elite/oppressors.” It’s the exact same thing, just dressed up with different words. They all mean “other” and “other” means “Jew.” It hurts more coming from the left though. A lot of Jewish philosophy leans left. A lot of Jews lean left. So when the left decides to hate us, it isn’t a random stranger, it’s a friend, and it feels like a betrayal.

One of the people I follow works for Yad Vashem, and a few weeks ago she mentioned a video they have with testimonies from people who came to Israel after Kristallnacht, with an unofficial title of “The blow came from within.” The idea is that to non-German Jews, the Holocaust was something done by strangers. It was still terrible, but it is easier to bear the hate of a stranger – it’s not personal. But to German Jews, the Holocaust was a betrayal. It wasn’t done by strangers, it was done by coworkers, and neighbors and people they thought were friends. It was done by people who knew them, and still looked at them and said, “less than human.” And because of this sense of betrayal, German survivors, or Germans who managed to get out before they got rounded up, had a very different experience than other Holocaust victims.

And I feel like a lot of left leaning Jews are having a similar experience now. People that we’ve marched with or organized with, or even just mutuals that we’ve thought of as friends are now going on about how Jews are evil. They repeat antisemitic talking points from the Nazis and from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and when we point out that those ideas have only led to Jewish death in the past they don’t care. And if someone you thought of as a friend thinks of you this way, what do you think a stranger might think? Might do?

The Jews are fucking terrified. I’ve seen a post going around that basically wonders if this was what it was like for our ancestors – when things got bad enough to see what was coming but before it was too late to run? And we can see what’s coming. History tells us that they way people are talking and acting only leads to one place. I’m a millennial – when I was a kid the grandparents at my synagogue made sure the kids knew – this is what it looked like before, this is what you need to watch out for, this is when you need to run. I wonder where to run to. It feels like nowhere is safe.

I feel like I’ve been lucky in all this. I don’t live in Israel. I have family and acquaintances who do, but no one I’m particularly close to. Everyone I know in real life has either been sane or at least silent about all of this (the internet has been significantly worse, but when it comes to hate, the internet is always worse). I live in a relatively liberal area – there’s always been antisemitism around anyway, but it’s mostly just been swastikas on flyers, or people advocating for BDS, not anything that’s made me actually worry for my safety. But in the last 5 months there have been bomb threats at my synagogue, and just last week a kid got beat up for being Jewish at our local high school. He doesn’t want to report it. He’s worried it will make it worse.

I bought a Magen David to wear in November. At the time it seemed like the best way to fight antisemitism was to be visibly Jewish, to show that we’re just normal people like everyone else. Plus, I figured that if me being Jewish was going to be a problem for someone, then I would make it a problem right away and not waste time. I’ve worn it almost constantly since, but the one time I took it off was when I burnt my finger in December and had to go to urgent care. I didn’t think about it too much when I did it, but I thought about it for a long time after – I didn’t feel good about having made that choice.

The conclusion I came to is that the training that my elders had been so careful to instill in me kicked in. I was hurt, and scared, and the voice inside my head that sounds like my grandmother said, “don’t give them a reason to be bad to you. Fight when you’re well, but for now – survive.” It still felt cowardly, but it was also a connection to my ancestors who heeded the same voice well enough to survive. And it enrages me that that voice has been necessary in the past. And it enrages me that things are bad enough now that my instinct is that I need to hide who I am to receive appropriate medical care.

I wish I had some sort of final thought to tie this all together other than, “this sucks and I hate it,” but I really don’t. I could call for people to examine their antisemitic biases, but I’m not foolish enough to think that this will reach the people who need to do so. I could wish for a future where everything I’ve talked about here exists only in history books, and the Jewish experience is no longer tied to feeling this pain, but that’s basically wishing for the moshiach, and I’m not going to hold my breath.

I guess I’ll end it with the thought that through all of this hate and pain and fear, we’re still here. And we’re still joyful as well. As much as so many people have tried over literally THOUSANDS of years to eradicate us, I’m still here, I’m still Jewish, and being Jewish still makes me happy.

Am Yisrael Chai.

[ramblings-of-a-mad-cat]

Okay, I don't get it: What does goblin rebellion has anything to do with Jewish? I've seen many people getting angry about it, but I don't know why.

I am far from being the best person to explain this. I am not Jewish, so if I get any part of this wrong, I humbly ask any Jewish readers who come across this post to let me know so I can make corrections.

But my understanding of it is this: The Potterverse Goblins are problematic because Goblins are problematic in general. In theory, they're not supposed to be. In theory, they're just another fantastical creature like fairies or dragons, right? Well, not exactly. The Goblin fulfils a number of stereotypes, and in all likelihood traces it's origin back to offensive caricatures of Jewish people. You can read a lot more about this here, and it's explained far better than I ever could - but the bottom line is that at least one version of Goblin mythology ("cornish knockers") specifically cites them as being the souls of Jews who are condemned for their sins....so um, yikes. While the Goblin race has probably been fleshed out enough beyond those origins that it could could theoretically be "reclaimed" at this point...that is, frankly, not our decision to make.

I'm also not saying that using Goblins in your story automatically means you're an Anti-Semite. (It would be a stretch, for instance, to assume Stan Lee was antisemitic just because he invented The Green Goblin.) Like I said earlier, it's very possible for authors to simply not know this bit of history. (Though if this teaches us anything, it's that a little bit of research can go a long way.) I was completely clueless about all this myself, until just a few years ago. I couldn't understand the problem either. While I personally doubt that Rowling knew, or did this on purpose...her interpretation of the Goblins is still troubling. Most people are finding it very difficult to give her the benefit of the doubt on this, because at least on paper, the Potterverse Goblins check off all the boxes. Everything from their design, with the long, hooked noses...to their miserly behavior, to the point where they are the bankers of the Potterverse...yeah, it's not a great look. If you put Goblin culture under a microscope, I tend to think it's actually supposed to be a metaphor for white imperialism, but all of the stereotypes involved are still there.

Which brings us to Harry Potter: Hogwarts Legacy. At this moment, I feel that it's important to reiterate that I am not Jewish, and this is going to stray a bit further into speculation on my part. Again, please set me straight if I'm off course. But the plot of this game, so I hear, is going to be centered around one of the famous "Goblin Rebellions" that Harry learned about in History of Magic. Again, at first glance, there's nothing wrong with that. But I can see why it's rubbing people the wrong way. With how often Jewish people have been victimized throughout history, (and holy fuck, have they been through the ringer) it's possible to draw a parallel between the Goblin Rebellion and real world history. The problem is that in real life, The Jews were, y'know, the victims during these incidents...and seeing as how the player is going to be controlling a human character, something tells me that The Goblins in this game will be depicted as the villains. Now, maybe they'll make this a three-dimensional conflict. Maybe they'll flesh out The Goblin characters. Maybe they'll be sympathetic, maybe we'll have the choice to side with them.

But that's a lot of "maybe's."

There's also the timing. People are already wary around Rowling after she revealed herself as a transphobe, which is the sort of damage you just can't fix or take back - not that she's in any way trying to. But I wonder if recent events have inspired a healthy degree of paranoia. Now that Rowling has chosen to openly side with bigots, nothing is off the table: Maybe Dumbledore's story is written to be homophobic. Maybe the House Elves are glorifying slavery. Not saying that I think either of these things are true, but these are classic criticisms of the original books, and now they have a precedent. In the wake of all this, creating a game where the plot centralizes the oft criticized Goblins certainly isn't helping. This game couldn't have come at a worse time for Rowling or the Harry Potter brand.

[jotunvali02]

Sorry, you call me a Nazi while you're the supremacist one with a blog full of yucky supremacism and inflamed nationalism?

FORCE AND STRENGTH TO ALL THE JEWS, ESPECIALLY ISRAELI JEWS WHO GET CALLED "NAZI" OR "FAKE JEW" EVERYDAY FOR BRAVELY PROTESTING AGAINST THEIR FASCIST POLITICIANS!

YOU'RE BRAVE! ✊

If the map on your blog was anything else than Israel, and your nationalist logo anything else than a Star of David, ANYONE would legitimately agree you're the Nazi one, BUT, since Israel is ruled by ✡️Jewish✡️ politicians (well, who claim they're Jewish at least), it's those who protest against Israel who're Nazis??

Fuck you! ! לך תזדיין

Fuck you and your fucked up brain, fucked up cognitive dissonance, fucked up self-centredness, and fucked up superiority complex! תזדיין אותך והמוח המזוין שלך, דיסוננס קוגניטיבי דפוק, ריכוז עצמי דפוק ותסביך עליונות דפוק

You think you're "special"? That you're a ✨❄️special unique snowflake✨❄️?

Fuck you! It's the nationalist fuckers like you who think their country is the exception who think like Nazis!

You think being Jewish, or an Israeli Jew, gives you a free pass to bully, kill, expropriate, invade, ban, ghettoize people because you believe yourself "more entitled" or "more worthy" than them?? האם אתה חושב שלהיות יהודי, או יהודי ישראלי, נותן לך כרטיס חינם להטריד, להרוג, להפקיע, לפלוש, לאסור, אנשים בגטו כי אתה מאמין שאתה "זכאי יותר" או "מגיע יותר" מהם?

Then you act and think like a fucking racist pig, like a Nazi in short. . ואז אתה מתנהג וחושב כמו חזיר גזעני, בקיצור כמו נאצי

So fuck you and fuck ALL the supremacist nationalist murderous racist Nazis like you! Israeli nationalists INCLUDED! ! כולל לאומנים ישראלים

RACISM AND SUPREMACISM DO NOT KNOW EXCEPTIONS OR JUSTIFICATIONS! ! גזענות ועליונות אינן יודעות חריגים או הצדקות

If you think there are, you're the fucking Nazi! ! אם אתה מאמין להיפך, אתה הנאצי המזוין

That's also what makes me mad about the situation with Russia and Ukraine:

When Israel's been doing EXACTLY what Russia is doing with Ukraine for a decade, execept Israel has been doing so with Palestine and its neighbors for almost 74 years since its creation, NOBODY gives a shit or doesn't dare to talk (because "I'll be called a Anti-Semitic" and also they're pals with the "good guys" West and United States) but when it's Russia everybody is EEEASY to shit on a whole people and to be openly racist!

So, when Russia is a fucking fascist State who invade and wage war on its neighbors because "this land is ours", everybody can be racist all out and the country is smashed under lots of sanctions, izolation and bashing,

but when Israel is a fucking fascist State who invade and wage war on its neighbors because "this land is ours", NO ONE gives a shit and the country is free to do anything it wants and no one is allowed to criticize it??

MAY I ASK WHY ??

Oh yes: RACISM! Most of you doesn't give a shit about Ukrainian people, just like you don't give a shit about Palestinian people, and Arab people in general. You're just anti-Russian racist poor wrecthes haunted by the big bad USSR wraith.

FUCK YOUR RACISM.

FUCK YOUR TWO-SPEED CARE.

FUCK YOUR HYPOCRISY.

FUCK YOUR WARS.

[greengay]

lol you guys are acting as if this is a deep friendship and kat has been signing her instagram posts with "heil hitler" and that billie should have known!!!11!!

this is like. a celebrity friendship. they probably hang out maybe once every couple years and it isn't Immidiately Recognizable that kat is allegedly anti semitic

like, djsjdkd i'm a jewish person who is invested in social justice and i literally had no clue about these rumors, you think billie, a 45 year old man who didn't know how to end his livestreams is googling "YFIP" before he hangs out or collabs with someone?

like as someone who has actually experienced antisemitism, and isn't being performative with my moral outrage, it isn't immidiately noticeable. like, you can be friends with someone for YEARS and then they'll throw in a jew joke that comes out of left field.

AGAIN. Kat lives in LA and runs a makeup empire and her own tattoo shop and we all know billie is off doing a million things, do y'all really think they're talking about anything slightly controversial? no, they're probably talking about music, sobriety, tattoos, etc, the 1-2 times they hang out, like

i'm not excusing her and i don't think that billie is perfect, but you guys are crazy if you think normal people google everyone they collaborate with to see if they're problematic djsjkdkdsk

even IF billie knew (which. lmao) she "claims" that she didn't actually send the picture that said "burn in hell jewbag" and that someone took one of her stock photos she gave out for autographs and made her look bad (i don't believe that, but there ya go. but also. why would they talk about something from 2008 that wasn't well publicized), the equating the slaughter of animals to the holocaust is fucked up, but AGAIN. it was 1 post that billie may or may not have seen and could be written off in his mind as her just being REALLY into animal rights. like, uh, the shoah is literally one of the worst things to happen in human history and i don't blame people for not being fully able to connect people making comparisons of it to people being antisemetic.

but ANYWAYS that's implying that billie was at any point fully invested in googling kat von d's history to make sure she's never said anything bad, which is a ridiculous expectation. she is not outwardly a nazi, at a surface glance she seems like a nice lady, and she definitely isn't spitting racist rhetoric every time she opens her mouth, so how would he POSSIBLY know??

and lmao guys he isn't perfect either, like i said. u think i believe the bs he says at concerts abt how we all love each other whether we're liberal or conservative? must be easy to say that when you live in the Most Liberal Part of california!!!! i don't like how he makes molestation jokes even though he probably thinks it's okay because he's always the butt of the jokes. i don't like how he used the n-word in a song, even though he was "quoting a racist".

your favs aren't morally pure, YOU guys aren't morally pure, you talk about not wanting to buy her product so you don't seem like you're supporting antisemitism when all your clothes are made from child laborers in sweatshops overseas. ever shop at urban outfitters/free people/anthropologie/zara? they're like. VERY antisemetic, and that even shows through in some of their products, unlike kat's line. ever eat/drink a nestle product? they give free samples of formula to women in africa so they stop making breast milk and are forced to buy their product, and then hike up the price. ever shop at walmart? they've been known to steal people's passports from a shrimp processing plant in thailand and force them to work to get them back which can literally be considered human trafficking. not to mention how they treat their workers in the USA or the immigrants they hire and force to work 7 days a week or else they'll deport them.

the world is fucked up!!!! if u are gonna be disappointed in anyone who even ASSOCIATES with someone or something that's problematic u ain't gonna have a fun time!! u can't put billie on a pedestal and expect him to never associate with anything harmful ever!!!

[penguicorns-are-cool]

Not so friendly reminder that antisemites have historically used antizionism as a cover for their antisemitism. a LOT of antizionists are antisemites and antizionist rhetoric has always been influenced by antisemites.

This is why on college campuses with dedicated antizionist groups there's higher rates of antisemitism and shit like this happens. Like antisemitism has been actively rising in general all over but it's been really bad on college campuses and campus Hillels do so much to combat that antisemitism.

If you are someone who even interacts with antizionism please please please be aware of the antisemitic history of antizionism. Please go out of your way to do some research about what zionism is, it's history, the history of antizionism, and general dogwhistles. Even if you don't mean to be antisemitic and think you're not being antisemitic, just do a little bit of research. I'll even provide some links to make it a bit easier.

This is very simplified but it's the first one I could find without antisemitic dogwhistles in it. I do encourage you to do more research after reading this if you can, but this will give you a good overview of what Zionism is

This one is a simple way to figure out if someone is giving legitimate criticism of Israel or is being antisemitic (it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes)

How modern antizionism tends to mirror the Soviet anti-zionist campaign that was used to further oppress Jews in the Soviet Union while dismissing claims of antisemitism

The American Jewish Committee (AJC) glossary of antisemitic dog whistles and explanations of why they're antisemitic

Also, if you're up for it, here's a link to "Der Judenstaat," the book by Theodore Herzl (the person whose credited as the founder of zionism as we know it today) in which he outlines the what and why of zionism. It's also really not so hard to read it's translated into pretty common language and while it looks really long, the actual book is only the bottom half of the page and it's really well organized so you can skim through it easily.

I live in a state that has just shut down LGBTQ centers and diversity initiatives at all public universities. And today, the LGBTQ center at a prestigious private university in my city cut ties with our city’s Hillel over Hillel International’s ✨Zionism✨. Previously, the two programs had worked together to create a really unique community for religious queer people, and this university was providing a lot of support for people at my (public) university, which just lost its own center. I’m really proud of everything our Hillel has done with queer Jews around our greater metropolitan area, and it’s really sad to think about how many people will be forced to make some tough decisions about support and community. This is how black and white antizionist decisions that don’t consider intersectionality and nuance hurt people.

People really need to see how much of the social fabric is falling apart, and how quickly authoritarian white supremacist transphobic / homophobic varieties of government are gaining power and momentum. It was always obnoxious and pointless to litmus-test vulnerable groups out of coalitions because of "who SHOULDA won!!!" the civil war in British Palestine 77 years ago. It has now become dangerous.

[alarajrogers]

Feel like at this point there are three vocal groups about this and they are all signaling:

signaling how woke you are by going on and on about how terrible this game is and how you're a terrible person if you play it

signaling how anti-woke you are by going on and on about how everything is a coincidence and there aren't really any Jews in the game and you're gonna play it if you want to

signaling how calm and rational you are by pointing out that it's basically impossible to point to any material harm the game does to anyone and giving a few cents to Rowling isn't going to make a difference and no one should be sandbagging anyone else over a game

It appears that categories 2 and 3 are seen by category 1 as identical.

I'm going to fall into group 4: signaling how calm and rational I am by pointing out that when people perceive an existential threat by a well-known bigot promoting a game full of what seems like cannot possibly be coincidental digs at a historically oppressed group, trying to position yourself as the rational one by arguing that the game isn't objectively that bad is going to go over the head of anyone who is that upset by the game, and serves only to make people who might otherwise be on your side about most things think you have opinions that you do not, or to make the people who are gleefully enjoying the bigotry feel like you have their back.

Like, yes. Objectively, this game is not causing any significant harm to anyone; whatever money Rowling is making from it is likely a drop in the bucket of her finances. Objectively, the only people who are going to pick up the antisemitic dogwhistles are people who care a lot about antisemitism -- basically, Jews and antisemitic people, for opposite reasons. And obviously, throwing hysterical fits online about how terrible the game is feeds the outrage machine that baits for clicks, and is serving as free advertising for this game, so it's not really beneficial in any way to the people who despise the game and think it is outrageous that it exists.

But at the same time you have to recognize that there really is a connection there that people fear and hate. A transphobe who donates to transphobic causes (and also the continued oppression of Scotland) is making money off a game that employs a lot of antisemitic tropes, and has as its fundamental premise that a rebellion against a canonically oppressive group entails a plan for the utter destruction of that group, justifying a "hero" supporting a status quo where the oppressed group remains oppressed. There are good reasons to be disgusted by this as a concept for a game.

Spending a lot of time telling people that they're dumb or misguided for being upset that such a game exists, in order to signal that you are a calm and rational person, is also... kinda signaling that you are a callous person who doesn't give a shit about their issues. Which may not be true! I know I've spent a lot of time in my life playing devils advocate and trying to signal that my take is calmer and more rational than people on "my side" politically are taking it. But it doesn't work, it just makes people who think the game is a big deal think you are an ass, and it provides support to people who love the idea of a big well-known franchise producing a popular property that might secretly support anti-semitism, because these are people who think that Jews control the media and need to be pushed back against.

So, I mean, objectively, yeah, the harm the game is doing is largely the harm of making people upset and outraged by its existence, not any actual harm it could achieve through being purchased or played. But that's still harm. Claiming then that the game can't possibly do any harm, when the harm already exists from "people learning about a popular product coming to market that's partly built around what sounds like it's actively bashing an oppressed group"... you'd kind of have to prove that it is not, in fact, actively bashing an oppressed group, and from what we've heard from people who actually played it, that doesn't sound provable.

I think the best thing to do if you feel like the outrage over this game is overblown, or if you feel like the outrageous stuff was put in so that people's anger would form an advertising campaign, is just stop addressing the damn thing. if it's not that important, then let's treat it as unimportant. Which is what I intend to do as soon as I finish saying this, here.

how do people write this shit about a harry potter video game and not feel ridiculous lol. Like, using this kind of language over a relatively trivial issue doesn't make you seem tough, it makes you seem like an idiot whose opinions probably aren't worth seriously considering.

[fantastic-nonsense]

@perfectlynormalhumanbeing: As a Jew, one of the major factors in the criticism comes from the fact that she's a child-stealing crone who steals a beautiful blonde baby from her high stock blond family and matches 1-to-1 with the "Jewish Mother" stereotype, including one of her lines being, "Me, I'm just your mother, what do I know?" which is infamously tied to the trope.

Figured I should address this as its own separate response, because I don't think I can do it justice in a reply.

One, the child-stealing is an inherent part of the Rapunzel narrative. Sometimes it's voluntary child-giving or child-trading, sometimes it's from a rich family and sometimes it's from a poor family, but Rapunzel is inherently a story about a child being taken from her bio family and raised in isolation in a tower by someone else (sometimes a witch, sometimes an ogre, sometimes a fairy, but the basic premise remains the same). You can't excise that from the narrative without making a fundamentally different story; it has nothing to do with Gothel as a character regardless of her physical appearance.

Two, her family......isn't blonde. And technically, neither is Rapunzel (since she was only blonde because of the Sundrop's powers):

Three, Gothel's an abusive narcissist. She's not a depiction of a "stereotypical overbearing Jewish mom." It's TEXTBOOK emotional and psychological abuse and the directors were explicitly trying to portray that. They weren't subtle and it's in basically every interview they've ever given where they talk about Gothel in any kind of depth. And, if I'm going to be honest, it's weird how people keep trying to link 'overbearing Jewish moms' with a character whose entire status and function as a villain hinges on the fact that she emotionally abuses and manipulates Rapunzel to keep her from leaving and returning home. It's also weird how much people project stereotypes onto Gothel rather than actually examining why Gothel is considered a villain, how her villainy is actually depicted/showcased, and how easily she can be compared to other Disney villains like Frollo, Scar, Medusa, and Ursula.

Like...there is functionally no difference between Gothel & Rapunzel's relationship and Frollo & Quasimodo's relationship except that Frollo is obviously cruel from the beginning of the movie. Frollo and Gothel engage in the same tactics: gaslighting, personal put-downs based on physical appearance, emotional manipulation, guilt-tripping, scaremongering about the outside world, using "I raised you so I obviously know better than you, but sure, you're free to make your own choices" statements, etc. If Frollo isn't an anti-semitic caricature, then neither is Gothel. Because she's not meant to be an example of "just another well-meaning but overbearing and slightly manipulative mom, lol." She's meant to be a WARNING! All of her behavior was specifically modeled to scream "hey! She's abusive, people! This behavior is why she's a villain!" at the audience.

Again, I'm not denying that the tropes you talked about don't exist in unfortunate abundance or that they're not incredibly harmful; I also don't mean to be callous or seem dismissive of genuine concerns. I simply think it's an inaccurate interpretation of Gothel (especially given crew interviews, the context of the fairy tale being adapted, and the fact that we can point to multiple other Disney villains who clearly aren't anti-semitic caricatures but engage in the exact same behavior) and feel like that interpretation is easily refuted by pointing out those facts.

*sigh* the "Mother Gothel is an anti-semitic caricature" discourse is going around again and I am once again in the position of reminding people that Gothel's character design is modeled on Cher and her VA, Donna Murphy (neither of whom are Jewish):

This has been explicitly stated by the animation designers and Donna herself on multiple occasions. People are projecting Jewishness onto a character that was explicitly visually based on two non-Jewish women simply because she has features that are stereotypically associated with Jewish people (her nose and hair).

The point of Gothel's character design was to make her visually as opposite of Rapunzel as possible: dark-haired and curly where Rapunzel was blonde and straight, tall where Rapunzel was short, curvy where Rapunzel was flat, dark colors where Rapunzel wore pastels. The animators also specifically stated they wanted to make sure Gothel didn't initially appear evil (in both looks and personality), because it wouldn't make sense for Rapunzel to love her so much if she was so obviously scary and "evil."

All of this information can be found in easily-accessible BTS features, just like the infamous "Hot Man Meeting" re: Flynn's character design. They wanted to make it as visually obvious as possible that she wasn't Rapunzel's bio mom. That intention+directly using Murphy (Gothel's VA) & Cher as visual reference=Gothel.

Just...ask yourselves this: if Gothel was blonde with a "normal" nose (whatever that means, but I genuinely saw it said by someone earlier today) but literally nothing else about her changed, would you be saying that she's an anti-semitic stereotype? If they hadn't given Gothel her VA's nose or Cher's hair, would you be saying this? That's a far better yardstick of whether Gothel is ACTUALLY a Jewish stereotype or if you're projecting Jewish stereotypes onto a character who's visually based on two non-Jewish women that happen to have what you view as stereotypically Jewish features.

I'm not saying the tropes don't exist. I'm not saying they're not harmful. All I'm saying is that Gothel (and thus Tangled) is unreasonably linked to those tropes out of an unfortunate coincidence. There is a very distinct difference between being actively anti-semitic and Tangled, which has anti-semitism being projected on it because its villain bears passing similarity to anti-semitic caricatures out of sheer coincidence.