#viserys ii x daena

[sarcasticsweetlara]

hiii, i have seen lot of ideas where the dance never happens like rhaenyra having a succesful reign, happy marriage life for jace-baela/ luke-rhaena. i think it would be funny if viserys run away to lys in a saera style for the drama, well my point is i like your au's so i wanted to know if you have headcanons for team black where the dance of the dragons never happened

There are many scenarios I could think of, actually...

And it depends how you want to see it because there are things that if erased creates more advantages and new situations, but could still stop the war.

1. Alicent accepts Rhaenyra's proposal of betrothing Jace and Helaena.

And Baela is betrothed to a Velaryon cousin (not a son of Vaemond due his infamy of wanting to take Driftmark from Corlys and his line), like a grandson of Malentine Velaryon (Magnus Velaryon; the Velaryons are greatly inspired by the Nordics; the son of Viggo Velaryon son of Malentine Velaryon) to support the claim of Lucerys and back him

<<Read more below>>

With Helaena becoming Queen consort she gives legitimacy to Jace's reign as well as Alicent getting her daughter as Queen consort, and with Baela being a backbone with the Velaryons then Luke will receive support as the Lord of Driftmark with Rhaena as Lucerys' wife as well; Jace's children could marry Baela's children and Joffrey as well marries one of the daughters of Baela to further legitimize his line.

Baela would be a lady-in-waiting for Helaena, and together they would arrange the betrothal of their children.

2. Jace marries Baela (now Daemon sees his daughter as Queen), Lucerys still marries Rhaena, and the children of Luke and Rhaena marry the children of Joff.

Now, in all of the scenarios present Aegon III would marry Daenaera as an alliance (they would always marry each other), and Viserys II would marry his niece Daena <<Daena deserved to become The Queen and be the mother of Daeron II and Daenerys, and of the whole dynasty>> to unite their bloodlines; and if baby Visenya survives, then Viserys would marry her (the original plan of Martin), and their son would marry their niece Daena to once again unite the bloodline with Daena being Queen and having her uncle and aunt as Hand and counselors.

3. Other possible scenario but this time after Rhaenyra: Aegon the Younger calls for a High Council once Rhaenyra dies peacefully, and he is chosen as king as the oldest legitimate son of Rhaenyra (Jace would no longer have the protection of Rhaenyra), Baela gets to marry Magnus Velaryon, and she becomes the Lady of Driftmark as a consort (we know Corlys would never choose her, but he could choose a great-great-nephew he liked), while Rhaena marries Corwyn Corbray, and Viserys would still marry either Visenya or Daena; but even then Aegon III would have mercy and spare the lives of Jace, Luke and Joffrey, and they would be married off to minor ladies.

Honestly, in the second and third scenarios I have to admit I think Aegon would eventually reach for the Throne because legitimately it is his.

...

Anyways, Rhaena's children would marry Baela's children, and Rhaena and Baela would be councilors to both Aegon III and Viserys II Targaryen.

I think it would be nice to see Daena or Visenya matching Viserys' fire and having a partner who is an equal and loves and supports him since he would be spared being a hostage of three different Lyseni families that threatened him and also would spare Westeros of the Rogare family, Aegon the Unworthy and the Blackfyre Rebellions.

Either way any of these relationships would mirror that of Baelon and Alyssa or Daemon and Rhaenyra.

But beyond that, Baela would be happy to become Lady of Driftmark, this time in a happy marriage, and would have a husband devoted to her; she would name her first daughter in honor of her mother and first son in honor of her grandfather Corlys; and Laena would be the grandmother of Aelinor Penrose through a daughter of hers (HC: Coryssa Velaryon) who married into House Penrose.

Rhaena would be free of the pressure of providing an heir quickly and therefore her first baby would be born, and would be able to use her dragon to quell the protestors against Joffrey Arryn (the heir of Jeyne Arryn) and Corwyn would live.

Baela would always introduce Daenaera to Aegon III, and Rhaena would take Viserys II on travels to Dragonstone and the whole realm.

Once Viserys II comes back, (if Visenya is not alive) Daena would meet him and they would fall in love and marry.

Baela's favorite niece would be Daena, followed by the daughters of her sister Rhaena, whereas Rhaena's favorite niece would be her little namesake.

Without the trauma of Larra Rogare and the need to overcompensate due to their involvement, Viserys II would see the practicality in sending Baelor to a Sept and therefore there would be no Maidenvault, and no threat of a religious war with the Stepstones, the Iron Isles and the North, as well as no disbalance of taxes going to the High Septons.

Rhaenyra and Daemon would be able to meet their grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and if Rhaenyra's daughter survives, Rhaenyra would have loved spoiling her little princess.

If Baela and Rhaena's full younger brother survives as well, this little boy called Aemon in honor of his great-grandfather, would be completely loyal to his half-brothers Aegon the Younger and Viserys, he would have a keep of his own in the Crownlands given by Rhaenyra so he doesn't compete against the Strong boys

But even then, Aemon would support his legitimate younger brother's birthright.

If Aemon lives, he would marry Maris Baratheon and that's one more ally for the Blacks.

Aemon would claim Grey Ghost itself or steal one of its eggs, he's the son of Daemon and Laena after all, and want to fight but he would be beat to it by Baela.

Aemon would be a male mini-Laena being as adventurous, smooth and demure as his mother, and his sisters would tell him stories about their mother.

Viserys would claim Vermithor and if Visenya lives, then she can claim Silverwing, and Daena and Rhaena could get one of the other dragon eggs of their aunt Rhaena, Elaena's egg could also hatch as well.

Baela would get a new dragon from one of the eggs of Morning as well.

Daemon would teach all of his sons how to fight and encourage them to embrace chaos.

Baela and Rhaena would spoil their little sister Visenya, and as Baela is a tomboy and Rhaena a girl's girl, I like to think Visenya would be kind of an introvert with a stylish witch vibe.

Viserys II would bring his mother many treasures he found on his travels.

And without the trauma of seeing Rhaenyra die, Aegon would proudly wear the crown of Rhaenyra and Daena would wear it as well.

And Visenya would get special tiaras for herself and Viserys as the second and third in command of Aegon III and later Daena.

And I guess these are my headcanons.

[sarcasticsweetlara]

Honestly, I think Viserys II should have married Daena.

If Viserys had spent his youth traveling around Westeros and Essos, and then come back to fall in love and court Daena; that way his line and the line of Aegon III would have been joined

“daena was targaryen to the bone; strong, beautiful, willful.”

[thatscruelsummer]

queen daenaera

[linaartsblogsworld]

Aegon III and Viserys ii Reunion

“ King Aegon began to weep, throwing himself upon this boy in a fierce embrace. Oakenfist's "tresure" was Viserys Targaryen, the kings's lost brother, the youngest son of Queen Rhaenyra and Prince Daemon.. missing for nigh unto five years”.

[horizon-verizon]

Helaena & Aegon's Relationship -- A Book Reader Explaining How They Got Some Truths or Conclusions Out of an Unreliable Narrator/Account

Also can be found on Twitter HERE.

*HEADCANON*

Art Credit by fkaluis

There's really no reason to think that F&B is unreliably telling/twisting this moment, as this part is told through Munkun/Orwyle, Orwyle who was there to witness Alicent putting out this search party for Aegon to get him quickly crowned.

QUOTE of Helaena about Aegon's Whereabouts (in case pic below is illegible, not sure about pic quality)

Yes, Orwyle was writing to paint himself as non-complicit/innocuous as possible to avoid execution during his imprisonment.

Yes, Helaena is reported to be a "pleasant", seemingly non-confrontational person.

Yes, there is the possibility that he wasn't in the room when Helaena answered the searchers.

However, again, what we know of Aegon, his raping, his philandering, the fact he wasn't present and in the room with Helaena and had to be looked for maybe a few hours before being found and then found with a 12-year-old (he was in his early 20s), speaks volumes about their relationship alone. We do not hear anything that shows Aegon was even involved in his kids' development or nurturing or hung out with them, just because.

Meanwhile we absolutely, at least, know that Viserys kept Rhaenyra close to him at the feast while Aemma was alive, & even more so after he named her heir. (Viserys has got his own parenting issues even with Rhaenyra, but he was definitely loving towards Aemma & Rhaenyra and was present. Rhaenyra would have remembered him as putting in that parental effort).

We absolutely know that Baela and Rhaena, Aegon III and Viserys II & all the Velaryon boys were close with, trusted, or worshipped Daemon by:

Jace trusting him with Dragonstone and the Seeds

no would-have-been-used-against-Daemon rumor; not even rumors of contention between any of them (same guy -Daemon- that people feared? Plz they'd be talking)

Baela being described as the female version of Daemon, or her going through mourning him by being "wild" as Aegon's council saw it

Rhaena herself having Daemon's fire (fear of reaction to her 1st husband's death, love for attention, etc)

Aegon III likely naming his daughter after him & Daena naming her son (the Blackfyre) after her grandfather Daemon (indicates Aegon expressed his love for Daemon to her)

And there is absolutely no indication that Aegon II's relationship with Helaena mirrored anything like Jaehaerys x Alysanne/Daemon x Rhaenyra/Alyssa x Baelon/Aemon x Jocelyn/Rhaenys x Corlys. The Targ/Valyrian couples have the most romantic stories of the ASoIaF universe (as told by narrative).

Even in the more contentious couples' (of my list) earliest, most romantic years. Not a one. No reports of longing glances, hushed conversations ignoring the rest of the room as if they were in a bubble, screams of pleasure, tender arm holding, flying their dragons together, no famous words of affection or appreciation of the other's attributes. Nothing.

And Helaena being a "pleasant" person does not negate the ability to establish boundaries, fight back when alarmed/annoyed/feeling intruded on, or had some Targaryen pride herself. Or have some self-possession.

So really, we absolutely can & should take as fact, that Helaena said what I quoted about Aegon not being in her bed.

QUOTE of Helaena before Jaehaerys' Death

Aegon & Helaena, despite some people's insistence, were never close & were never in love & were never a true couple. And Aegon was never a good father, nor a good husband or person all on his own merit.

Anyway, back to the prime point: we as readers have managed to understand characters, their motivations, relationships, etc even though the entire account of the Dance and before the Dance/war IS made up of many sources w/agendas 7 biases before we look at "So Spake Martin"/"The Citadel 'ASoIaF' Archive"--or anything like those--websites.

But of course, some people already know & acknowledge some FACTS about these characters from these sources, but will thump their way into ad-hominems and divergent tangents just to avoid it & affirm themselves.

[sarcasticsweetlara]

After Visenya, Daena is the most popular choice because she has pure Valyrian blood (Targaryen and Velaryon) and my headcanon is that she would receive a dragon egg from the ones her aunt Rhaena had been gifted by Rhaenyra and that she would name it Bloodfyre; and well, yeah, we can all agree that if not Visenya it would be nice to see him with Daena and see another version of Daemon and Rhaenyra without war and in a healthy environment.

And other than Daena or Visenya, Ellyn is a good choice in my opinion, a great-granddaughter of Alyssa Velaryon.

Daena x Viserys II😏

I just love how most of y'all reading my fic only ship Baby Aegon with Daenaera but ship Viserys II with almost every woman alive or yet to be born from his sisters to his nieces to Baratheon girls etc 😂😂😂 Dude would have a harem if it was up to y'all!

This being said, they do be uncle and niece, and Daena do clearly had daddy issues so... yeah I would read it 😌

[martellspear]

Why Aegon IV was a piece of shit?

-Born as the eldest of his generation, Aegon was the eldest son of Viserys II and Larra Rogare, being followed by his siblings Aemon and Naerys and his cousins Daeron, Baelor, Daena, Rhaena and Elaena. There is no mention of him being fostered anywhere, so his role models were his father Viserys (a workaholic who was always busy running Westeros) and his uncle Aegon III (a melancholic man who was avoidant of affection and could spend days without speaking to anyone). To rub salt in the wound, his mother Larra leaves when he is 4 years old, dying decades later, without closing the emotional wound she left on him (which explains his deplorable attitude towards women (specially Naerys because not only they were diametrically opposites in personality, but also tied to the schemes of his father Viserys, who he hated), he abandons them before they leave him, because she taught him to associate women with abandonment and hurt).

-He expected to be the guide of the Targaryen generations, so he trained hard with weaponry and wit (and to be the best)....yet he ended up being upstaged by his younger relatives: Daeron was a charismatic and popular general, Baelor had the love of the people because of his piety and Aemon was a preternaturally skilled warrior. Hungry for recognition and starved from affection, Aegon employed himself in the arts of seduction....and the rest is history.

Just wanted to say that I first read it as "Aegon VI" and my heart stopped for a moment 😹.

Aegon IV is the definition of "men in westeros should start their life at the night's watch and prove their way out". And I'm sure that if we wanted, we could make a longer list than that haha. Even though I'm not going to list all the other reasons, I'd like to add the tourney thing he almost did with Naerys (and everything he did to her, tbh). He's NASTY.

Seriously now, since we've been talking parallels for a while: Robert Baratheon x Aegon IV - the vigorous, handsome man, that loves hunting and has a bright future ahead of him but ends up being the opposite of what he was "supposed to be"; also, both are unfit to rule.

[juliaswickcrs]

My current hyperfixations OC-wise

(In case you any to ask questions)

HOTD:

Allyria Sand: Aegon II x OC. Dornish. Enemies to lovers. Team Black, eventually Team Green. Will kill you but melts at the first sign of affection.

Alysanne Targaryen: Cregan Stark x OC. Eldest daughter of Alicent and Viserys. Arranged marriage to lovers. Dragonrider. Pure cinnamon roll too good for this world.

Daena Velaryon: Vaemond’s eldest and only daughter. Heir to Driftmark. Hostage of the crown. Aemond Targaryen x OC. Dragonrider. Angry bean.

(Yes I did use all three of my WOT girlies what about it?)

[princeofdragonstone]

Who are your favourite targaryen couples

hii

let’s start with the originals, aegon x rhaenys x visenya obviously 💋 they formed westeros into one, they made westeros better and could not do so without one another. the dragon must have three heads after all, and no other throuple is topping them ✨

aenys i and alyssa — now i didn’t think of them as one of my favourite couples before, but now that i think about it i love the respect and loyalty they had for each other. they had perfect children, i love each and every one of them. though it’s such a shame that alyssa remarried to # that person out of all people (i’m glad rhaena gave him what he deserved tho!!) and i felt so sad for her when she missed the affection aenys was showing her while being married to rogar. she deserved so much better than that man, aenys might not have been a good king but he’s def was a better man than THAT man.

jaehaerys and alysanne — now, their relationship had so many flaws and they had much to grief but they did truly love each other. they lost so many children which i absolutely hate :( and the lost children played a huge part on their relationship. (i mean most of them were created just to give them a harsh life but we ignore that) the start of their relationship is just perfect, them marrying secretly and showing up in front of their mother (and # THAT man) ?? we had to stan

baelon and alyssa — do i have to explain? the purest relationship in f&b its confirmed. baelon did NOT even glance at any other woman after her death. they were the original malewife & girlboss couple it’s true 💘💘

daemon and rhaenyra — now, they might have given so many people heart attack when they got married in secret, (like viserys lolz) but they’re just too iconic to not be one of my favourites. they’ve been making alicent mad since day 1 💋 maybe daemon wasn’t the most stable person in westeros but he still died for his queen at the end and i love that

rhaenys and corlys — corlys might annoy me sometimes 😭 but i believe he did love her (i just wish # that incident didn’t happen) i just shipped them so much then the old man had to go ruin it like that

aegon iii and daenaera — i can’t say much about them but definitely one of the cutest couples out there, thank R’hllor for them

aemon and naerys — now, i don’t believe that naerys and aemon had an affair behind aegon’s back or anything, but i believe they did love each other. they just didn’t act upon their feelings because of duty :((

brynden and shiera — i feel like i’m praising them too much but i can’t help it 😭 they balance each other out and they’re it for me!!!

jaehaerys and shaera — i can’t say much about them and wasn’t actually gonna put them on here, but they said fuck everyone and married each other instead, daemon and rhaenyra’s spirit 100% possessed them on this one 😭

also honourable mentions: viserys ii and larra (i don’t exactly ship them bc we know so little, but their relationship seems interesting)

daeron i and daena (again, this is kind of a crackship but like viserys and larra they seem interesting, especially knowing how much daena valued and loved daeron

i can’t think of anyone else rn but i’m sure there’s more 😭 and also snowstorm is #1 for me this is just historical targaryens

[goodqueenaly]

If the Dance of the Dragons is the Anarchy and the Baratheons are the Yorksh usurpation, did George RR Martin skip over the Lancastrian usurpation or was it Viserys II and Aegon IV succeeding the children of Aegon III? Also if you could rewrite the history to add it, would it be with the grandsons of Daeron II like Aerion Brighflame (Richard II) and Egg (Henry Iv) as cousins instead of brothers?

I probably sound like a broken record on this at this point, but nothing in ASOIAF is ever 1-1 with its historical (or what GRRM believes is historical) inspiration. Just as the Dance might have shades of the Anarchy while not actually being particularly accurate to the real-world Anarchy, so the Lancastrian takeover of the English throne is not specifically recreated in any one incident in ASOIAF but has certain echoes in different plotlines. For example, for a tyrannical king dispossessing a powerful cousin aristocrat, only to have that cousin lead a rebellion against him (which initially presented itself as an assertion of that aristocrat's rights, with the aristocrat then declaring himself king), see Aerys II and Robert Baratheon. For a male of a royal male line succeeding ahead of a more senior cousin (but whose royal descent came through a woman), see Viserys I and Laenor Velaryon. I wouldn't want to see the story recreate with absolute fidelity every single development of medieval English royal history, because at that point I might as well just read a real history book; I leave it to the author to take certain inspirations from history (or, again, what he thinks of as historical accuracy) while remixing them, adding his own creative flair and letting his natural talent for storytelling lead the way.

(I'm less convinced about any parallels with the succession of Viserys II, if only because neither Daena nor her sisters were ever formally acclaimed queens in their own right and had "few" supporters and allies calling for such. I'd be more willing to believe that if and when F&B Volume 2 gets into the question, it will involve the soon-to-be Viserys II playing the part of Maurice Druon's Philip of Poitiers - more on him below - who in Druon's depiction invented the Salic law to exclude women from the throne of France (although Viserys will benefit from having the in-world precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC and the post facto precedent of the Dance).)

As far as Daeron's grandsons go, I think the story works fine the way it is. Specifically, I'm very much convinced that GRRM is using the sons of Maekar - specifically, Daeron, Aerion, and Egg - to parallel Druon's depiction of the elder two sons of Philip the Fair, Louis X and the aforementioned Philip (eventually Philip V). In Daeron and Aerion, GRRM distributes some of the characteristics of Louis X: Daeron gets Louis' overall schlubby-ness, his lack of prepossessing physical features, and his daughter of uncertain dynastic prospects (with GRRM adding to the issue of female succession by replacing the question of Louis' daughter's legitimacy with Vaella's "simpleness"); Aerion gets Louis' tendency to cruelty (although Louis isn't as consistently violently sadistic as Aerion, he does torture and drown those servants he suspects as having been involved in his wife's extramarital affair, indirectly orders the murder of his wife, and often loses his temper) as well as his infant son (though Aerion at least lived long enough to see Maegor born, while Louis' son was posthumous). In Aegon, GRRM repeats Druon's obvious favoritism toward Philip V: Egg, like Philip, is the intelligent, thoughtful, good king who nevertheless dies "a lonely man ... misunderstood by his subjects" because they will not cooperate with his forward-thinking reforms. (This is why I also suspect that baby Maegor might die of natural causes but that Egg will be blamed, as a sort of twist on The Accursed King's plot where Philip indirectly orders and directly benefits from the murder of the infant King Jean and in due course becomes king himself.)

[sarcasticsweetlara]

Daena should have been the mother of Daeron II the Good Targaryen

Crédits to @wweskywalker

Daena was the true embodiment of a Targaryen.

I think if Viserys had married Daena before Baelor had the chance to lock her away, Daena could have had the chance to see the bigger picture of how to govern, and while trying to get justice for Daeron I Targaryen, like asking for the heads of the people who killed him and retribution from every Dornish House as the weight of every hostage on gold, and then Daena could have made the very same deal of betrothing Daeron II and Myriah Martell and later that of Daenerys and Maron, while betrothing Rhaena to a Marcher Lord, like a Lord of House Oakheart, to balance the alliances with Dorne and the Marches. The Oakhearts were a family that respected peace and liked the Faith and they would have treated Rhaena well.

They could have sent Baelor to a Sept where he could not bother anyone and therefore everyone would be happier.

Daena could have kept using the crown of her mother and thus it would've stayed within House Targaryen, and there would not have been Blackfyre Rebellions.

...

I imagine Daena convincing Daeron to let her marry Viserys and wanting to court and be courted by Viserys before marrying him, and then in the second year of their marriage they can have Daeron (in honor of her beloved brother/his eldest nephew), followed by Aegon (a more respectful and actual smart Aegon; and to honor Daena's father/Viserys' brother), Aemon the Dragon Knight, and Daenerys.

Rhaena could have had two daughters: Naerys and Visaella (we can be safe the name Naerys was used before the Conquest as it was considered a significant Targaryen name for Naerys to compensate for the Rogare blood in her in ASOIAF; and the name Visaella is possible as a variant of the name Visenya/Viserra).

Daeron would still marry Myriah Martell, and Daenerys to Maron.

Naerys and Aemon would marry and have a daughter Aerea Targaryen who would marry into House Dondarrion and become the mother of Kiera Dondarrion, the wife of Valarr Targaryen, and later Daeron The Drunken Targaryen.

Whereas Visaella could marry into House Dayne and be the mother of Dyanna Dayne.

(Rhaena was a scholar, but it's probable she developed agoraphobia after being stuck in the Maidenvault for so long; and she deserves to be part of the line of Azor Ashai.)

Aegon could have married Melissa Blackwood and have had Mya, Gwenys and Brynden, and through a relationship with Serenei have Shiera, who would be legitimized out of love and not to spite anyone; he could work as a Hand for his brother, and be a good person, and given his hard and long time working as a Hand for his brother and later his nephew Aerys, Aegon was legitimately known and recognized as Aegon IV "The Helpful".

Peace with Dorne would be done and steadfast.

Daena by Viserys' side would take wise decisions and consider the option to avenge Daeron but still work to have peace.

And it would be interesting because if they rule together it's completely different to how it was with her grandparents/his parents but still important; because with Rhaenyra and Daemon it was Rhaenyra the one taking decisions while Daemon enacted them, now it is shared by Daena and Viserys through a double claim. You can see the parallels to Henry VII and Elizabeth of York or Ferdinand II and Isabella of Castile.

And also, because Aegon III and Daenaera, and Daena above everything deserved to be in the main line of Azor Ashai, and because Viserys really deserved someone better than the abusive daughter of his kidnapper as a wife who left him in a very vulnerable position. Larra left when Viserys was becoming an adult who was wiser now and more mature as well, and when also her family had regained some of their riches, how convenient.

In this scenario Daenerys would look like her greatx4grandmothers Daena and Rhaena - it's nothing against Naerys, but we have to erase her since Larra would never have married Viserys, because it's possible part of the reason why Viserys didn't spend so much time with Aegon IV, Aemon and Naerys was because they looked like Larra; Aegon like Larra and Lysandro, - Viserys' biggest abusers - Aemon like Larra in a softer way, and Naerys like Larra and Viserys himself, an eternal reminder of what he went through with Larra.

Larra Rogare and her family only brought grief to Viserys' life, and while she may not have had another choice but leave her children behind, it is interesting to see Larra only returned to Lys once her older brother Moredo was able to get some of their old possessions back.

Maybe in other circumstances the relationship of Viserys and Larra could have been different but it was not, and Daena would have been perfect together, a reminder of Rhaenyra and Daemon.

[linaartsblogsworld]

▪️𝑴𝑨𝑴𝑨'𝑺 𝑩𝑶𝒀𝑺 𝑺𝒆𝒓𝒊𝒆𝒔 :𝐑𝐡𝐚𝐞𝐧𝐲𝐫𝐚 𝐓𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐚𝐫𝐲𝐞𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐇𝐞𝐫 𝐁𝐨𝐲𝐬 ✨

[linaartsblogsworld]

Mother of Kings

[horizon-verizon]

I do believe a lot of Green stans are hypocrites when they call out show!Viserys for being a rapist but, at the same time, totally ignore Aegon doing the same thing to his sister wife Helaena because then they would also have to condemn their beloved Alicent for marrying them in the first place and forcing her own daughter to become a child bride. Instead they're even claiming Aegon is probably nice to his wife in private because their mother would NEVER allow him to hurt her. They say it's just team black stans claiming the opposite, that it's marital rape. Honestly, who would want their drunk husband forcefully having sex with them? I doubt that line from episode 8 is supposed to mean anything else. And what's more, I've also seen some of them complaining the show ruined their relationship by citing the book, saying there was probably love between them. What?? First of all Aegon was a rapist in the book as well (something most of them have never accepted to this day and never will), he was out there sexually harassing the castle's serving maids and raping girls as young as 12 years old. This is not the behavior of a loving and loyal husband, but one of a cheater who forces himself on women. Unless I'm missing something, there's no indication their arranged marriage became a loving one at all (especially in the show).

Link to Post about Who Arranges and/or is Responsible for Aegon & Helaena Marrying

Link to Post Talking about TV Helaena and Aegon, esp Supported by Episode 8 of Season 1

You're not missing anything about their book relationship. Helaena herself indicates that their marriage was a fluke:

Princess Helaena was breaking her fast with her children when the Kingsguard came to her…but when asked the whereabouts of Prince Aegon, her brother and husband, she said only, “He is not in my bed, you may be sure. Feel free to search beneath the blankets."

("The Blacks and the Greens")

There's really no reason to think that F&B is unreliably telling/twisting this moment, as this part is told through Munkun/Orwyle, Orwyle who was there to witness Alicent putting out this search party for Aegon to get him quickly crowned. Yes, Orwyle was writing to paint himself as non complicit/innocuous as possible to avoid execution during his imprisonment. Yes Helaena is reported to be a "pleasant", seemingly nonconfrontational person.

Yes there is the possibility that he wasn't in the room when Helaena answered the searchers. However, again, what we know of Aegon, his raping, his philandering, the fact he wasn't present and in the room with Helaena and had to be looked for for maybe a few hours before being found and then found with a 12 year old (he was in his early 20s), speaks volumes about their relationship alone. We do not hear anything that shows Aegon was even involved in his kids' development or nurturing, or hung out with them just because.

Meanwhile we absolutely, at least know, that Viserys kept Rhaenyra close to him at feast while Aemma was alive, and even more so after he named her heir. We absolutely know that Baela and Rhaena, Aegon III and Viserys II and all the Velaryon boys were close with, trusted, or worshipped Daemon by:

Jace trusting him with Dragonstone and the Seeds

no would-have-been-used-against-Daemon rumor; not even rumors of contention between any of them (same guy -Daemon- that people feared? Plz they'd be talking)

Baela being described as the female version of Daemon, or her going through mourning him by being "wild" as Aegon's council saw it

Rhaena herself having Daemon's fire (fear of reaction to her 1st husband's death, love for attention, etc)

Aegon III naming his daughter after her, and Daena naming her son after Daemon (indicates Aegon expressed his love for Daemon to her)

And there is absolutely no indication that Aegon II's relationship with Helaena mirrored anything like Jaehaerys x Alysanne/Daemon x Rhaenyra/Alyssa x Baelon/Aemon x Jocelyn/Rhaenys x Corlys. Even in the more contentious couples' earliest, most romantic years. Not a one. No reports of longing glances, hushed conversations ignoring the rest of the room as if they were in a bubble, screams of pleasure, tender arm holding, flying their dragons together, no famous words of affection or appreciation of the others' attributes. Nothing.

And Helaena being a "pleasant" person does not not negate the ability to establish boundaries, fight back when alarmed/annoyed/feeling intruded on, or had some Targ pride herself. Or have some self possession:

Blind to her danger, the queen appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three children. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother’s name. Blood barred the door and slew the queen’s guardsman, whilst Cheese appeared to snatch up Maelor. “Scream and you all die,” Blood told Her Grace. Queen Helaena kept her calm, it is said. “Who are you?” she demanded of the two.

("A Son for a Son")

So really, we absolutely can and should take as fact that Helaena said what I quoted about Aegon not being in her bed.

[sweetestpopcorn]

Hey, any thoughts on Aegon III and Viserys II’s relationship with their children? It’s strange, cus I personally think Aegon is actually the more caring father. His daughter Daena worshiped him and inherited his pendant. And I don’t really see his children’s personality hinting neglects from parents. (ok, Baelor is a creep but that’s way after Aegon’s death for him to show it ) But what Viserys done to Naerys makes me questioning if he is a Jaehaerys-like father. It’s just so sad he and Larra ended like this, which affected their children’s lives even further.

Hi there Anon 🤗

Unfortunately we know very little if anything. I am inclined to agree with you, however, that even with all his trauma (and overall withdrawal from most pleasures of life) , Aegon III did seem to have a closer bond with at least his daughter Daena, than Viserys II did with any of his children. She did worship him, inherited his pendant as you so correctly pointed out, and even liked to wear black as he did. Daena only took to wearing white to shame her brother Baelor. She also did name her son after her grandfather Daemon - Daena here you go Queen: 👑 - so bullsh:t at the court and history books aside and I have no doubt she was quite proud to descend from the Rogue Prince and the Realm's Delight. As. She. Should. #haterscry

Hum... I think Viserys might indeed have been a more neglectful father than Jaehaerys was. In fact, Jaehaerys was quite warm as a father and present for many of his children having a very close bond with his eldest sons Aemon and Baelon. And do not think he did not suffer at the loss his children because he did. We see several such moment in Fire and Blood. Even with Saera who he was most unkind to we do see regret at the end of his life, so I do not think the criticism he gets as a father is earned and for the most part, people absolutely ignore the good and just point out the bad. He did a lot of wrong - as every parent out there does and will keep doing - but for the most part I think he tried his best. He was a man of his time and he had his limitations but he was much better than most out there.

But back to Aegon III and Viserys II.

The fact remains that Viserys II's position was far from being an easy one. He was parted from his family at 7. Lived as a hostage, a very well-treated one yes, but a hostage still. Married off to Larra at 12. Returned to his home to find his family gone for the most part. Became a father at 13 and again at 14/15.

He was very much a boy, precocious as he might be, and at that age an year or two make a LOT of difference both physically and emotionally as well.

Viserys Targaryen was not ready for any of the things he was thrusted into: marriage and fatherhood. If 13 is shocking enough for a girl, 12 is even more so, especially for a boy, as it is well know that - generally speaking exceptions do apply - boys enter adolescence later than girls do.

While I am sure his teenage hormones might have been delighted to get la:d, the situation he was in was not a normative one, not even for his universe. If memory serves right, I don't recall another character - especially male - being married so soon and becoming a father at such a young age. The fact that Larra then left him absolutely did nothing of good for him, and if anything, it worsened the relationship he had with his children.

I wish I could be harsher with him but besides me really liking Viserys II, the fact that he became a father at 13 and had s£x at 12 makes me very uncomfortable to do so. He was just... so damn young... like an absolute baby who had no one to protect him and only ambitious people wanting to use him for their own advantage. My heart breaks at both him and Aegon a thousand times. And George, for this and so much more, you are heartless af.

But here I am still reading your sh:t so touché old man.

All the best to you, Anon 🤗

[sweetestpopcorn]

There are so many similarities between Viserys ii and Tywin Lannister.

Both their mother died when they were young.

Loved their wives a lot, who either left them of died.

Became stern after this. Though tywin was always stern.

Had 3 kids - 1 daughter and 2 sons.

Both were poor fathers. We know about tywin, but Viserys had no concern for Naerys when he forced her to marry Aegon.

Both their son's joined kingsguard.

Both were Hands by the age of 20 and very good at it. De facto rulers.

What say you popcorn?

Hi there! 🤗

I must confess I am not a fan of parallels, or of saying this character is just like that character. On the one hand, if that was the case, George would be doing a pretty bad job as a writer by giving us characters that are redundant, or copies of each other. On the other hand, most parallels that people use are so weak and general that they can apply for any two characters (e.g., has their house's look, has a son/daughter named X, had X children, loved to fly, had a paramour, lost their mother...).

Here let me show you how easy it is by showing you the "parallels" between Daemon and his son Aegon III. There are quite a lot of them.

Both married a Targaryen and a Velaryon woman (i.e., Laena and Rhaenyra; Jaehaera and Daenaera).

Both had three daughters and two sons (i.e., Baela, Rhaena, Aegon, Viserys, and Visenya; Daeron, Baelor, Daena, Rhaena, and Elaena).

Both lost their mothers when they were young.

Both were sons of a very famous prince (i.e., Baelon Targaryen “The Spring Prince” and Daemon Targaryen “The Rogue Prince).

Both had a brother named Viserys with whom they were close in their childhood (such closeness in their adult years was only maintained between Aegon III and his brother).

Both had two sons that became kings (i.e., Aegon III and Viserys II; Daeron I and Baelor I).

Both had their claim at one point challenged by a woman, and both later married that woman (i.e., Rhaenyra and Jaehaera).

Both had a very unfortunate and unhappy arranged first marriage (Daemon with Rhea Royce and Aegon III with Jaehaera Targaryen).

Both were skilled fighters.

I can even add, both were dragonriders, and Targaryens on both sides.

See? Quite a lot of things, but do they matter? Are they deep? I would say no, they aren’t. I used Daemon and his son but I could have easily picked other characters. And I will challenge anyone right here and now to send me characters for me to draw parallels between them. This is juts to show how pointless most parallels are. 

Now are they all irrelevant? No. I believe George himself has compared Dany to Aegon the Conqueror, and their parallels are relevant, and go deeper than irrelevant things that really say very little if anything about two characters. This to say I don’t hate or dislike every two parallels, I just started to grow a deep distaste for them when I start seeing dumb things like:

“Culinary skills”, “Son named Joffrey”, “Loved to Fly” I die a little on the inside.

Comparing now the parallels between Tywin and MVP Viserys.

Both their mother died when they were young. - This is true of such a great list of characters I don’t consider it relevant. It would be like “mother died in childbirth”. Small list of other characters who lost their mothers when they were young just from the top of my head: Aenys, Viserys I, Daemon, Aegon III, Baela, Rhaena, Jon Snow, Daenerys, Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime, Harwin Strong, Larys Strong, Aemma Arryn, Rhaenyra Targaryen, Brandon Stark, Rickon Stark... these are just the ones who instantly popped out.

Loved their wives a lot, who either left them of died. - Tywin was always stern, he was only “happy” with Lady Johanna, yes it got worse after she died but the bar was already low. Meanwhile Viserys II was a charmer who enchanted everyone before Larra left him. Also by stating either “died or left them” I feel it’s forced and not actually the same situation. I would say it would be the same situation if both had been left by their wives, or if both their wives had died.

Became stern after this. Though tywin was always stern. - As you say - very correctly if I might add - Tywin was always stern. If Tywin didn’t really change I don’t find it an accurate parallel.

Had 3 kids - 1 daughter and 2 sons. - Again such a shallow comparison. Back to Daemon and Aegon II who each had 2 sons and 3 daughters. Were they similar? No. 

Both were poor fathers. We know about tywin, but Viserys had no concern for Naerys when he forced her to marry Aegon. - I feel we need to learn more about Viserys and his children before making such a strong statement because we know so little. And being a poor father is true of so many characters - Aegon I, Jaehaerys (sometimes), Viserys I, Balon Greyjoy... 

Both their son's joined kingsguard. - This yes, though in one case it was his heir, and in the other, his second son... not exactly the same situation.

Both were Hands by the age of 20 and very good at it. De facto rulers. - Actually we can’t say this. We don’t know at what age Viserys became Aegon’s Hand. I believe he only did at the end of his brother’s reign but we might need to get back to this if F&B II ever comes out (yes Popcorn making jokes at this hour lol).

The most relevant parallels that I see between Viserys and Tywin would be that they were both considered to be some of the best Hands in the history of Westeros, and both had a daughter who was queen and rumoured to have an affair with her brother who was a knight of the Kingsguard. Where it matters though, I consider Tywin and Viserys to be quite different.

Tywin was someone to whom the ends very much justified the means (i.e., having babies murdered) whilst Viserys II wasn’t that sort of person. Was he that sort of person, he would have gotten rid of Baelor even before he became king and just ceased power for himself. Certainly I can’t see anything that he did that could even be comparable to what Tywin had done to Elia and her children. Another key difference between them was how Tywin was raised for rule (being his father’s heir) and learned from his father’s own mistakes, since Tytos was a weak man. Viserys, on the other hand, was his mother’s youngest son out of five and his father’s second son. He wasn’t expected to ever become king. Both of his parents were also formidable people, none could be called weak by any chance. Let’s not forget Viserys’s mama and papa was the Rogue Prince Daddy Daemon and Rhaenyra Targaryen the Realm’s Delight.

About their daughters while we know the rumours about Cersei to be #facts, about Naerys we know them to be slander Aegon IV tried to throw her way, since nowhere is there something that would lead anyone who has reading comprehension to suggest that she and Aemon were indeed lovers. And another key difference is that Cersei’s line will end, whilst Naerys’s line didn’t and in fact both the Targaryens and the Martells we see in the current asoiaf books have her blood. Not to mention that personality wise, Naerys and Cersei are polar opposites, and maybe drawing the anti-parallels between them would have a LOT of merit as they are more than just skin deep.

Finally we have their deaths and how they came to be, which I think are also worth bringing up. Tywin was killed by Tyrion, and Viserys II was rumoured to be killed by his son Aegon IV. If the latter is indeed true (we don’t know for sure, I have some doubts), this would be a key parallel between them. But... here comes that but again...

While Tyrion’s actions were very much not justified but... we know where he’s coming from and from a very emotional and ignoring laws and ethics for a moment, Tywin earned what he got, Viserys did nothing to Aegon IV, that we know of, but being absent and stern and cleaning after his sh:t the best he could. Again, certainly I cannot image him doing anything of the sort of what Tywin did to Tyrion. If he had, I am positive the history books would have let us know.

So in sum, I see nothing between them strong enough to justify an “Omg they are so similar to each other”.

Funnily enough, we hear Tyrion speaking very well of Viserys II. Not really relevant to the topic but I will leave this right here because we stan MVP Viserys.

All this aside and I really enjoyed this ask, Anon. I got a lot out of my chest not gonna lie here XD and this was a really interesting question.

All the best to you, Anon 🤗