#until GRRM tells me otherwise

[margoshansons]

Dreamfyre you’re still the mother of Daenerys’s dragons in my heart and will be until GRRM comes out of his hole to tell me otherwise

[la-pheacienne]

Alicent is unfortunately not the only lifeless portrayal in the show. I have to talk about my pookie. Daemon Targaryen, a fandom fave, grrm's fave (one of them), legendary, quintessential Targaryen prince, "both a great man and a monster", "the most admired, most beloved, most reviled in all Westeros", "made of light and darkness in equal parts", "to some a hero, to others the blackest of villains" (paraphrazing).

Now that is something isn't it? Except that I didn't see that Daemon.

The deal with Daemon is simple. Book!Daemon was, first of all, fiercely attached to his family and that part is extremely important for his characterization. That man was blindly devoted to his house, to his wife and to their kids, adopted or biological. That was his drive, that was his purpose, that was his inner logic. Secondly, that man was nuts. Genuinely terrifying, the "you touch my kin and you will be sorry you were born" kind of terrifying. The "I will not stop until I turn every single person who wronged my family to ashes, man, woman, or child" kind of terrifying.

And they violated his brother's will. They usurped his wife's throne. They murdered his boy. They dared make a fool out of him and tear his family apart, two clowns barely into adulthood, a whiny nun and an old man who faints at the sight of a dragon. These people did this to him. Like, can you even?

Daemon should be fucking seething. He should be coming down on these clowns like a ton of bricks. The mere mention of his name should make them tremble in terror. Blood and Cheese was his moment, and it was the moment of the Dance. Now Matt did a very good job conveying all of this up until Blood and Cheese but attributing Blood and Cheese to an oopsie severely underplayed Daemon's impact. Of course, the reason the writers made BxC a misunderstanding is simply the fact that they couldn't do otherwise, after what they did with Lucerys' murder. Show!Daemon, as he stands, could not unambiguously and straightforwardly order the murder of Helaena's son without turning into a cartoonish Ramsay type of villain, and this, because the writers have not established one of his two defining traits which is, again, his fierce, blind devotion to his wife and kids. Show!Daemyra is weak, Daemon's fatherhood is downplayed. This is a part of the general problem of the characters of the show feeling flat and vague in their motivations. The show may have included some intellectually stimulating changes, in all its anti monarchy blablabla glory, but in their effort to achieve that they stopped giving the characters space to feel, love, rage and form deep, unbreakable bonds with eachother which motivate the entirety of their actions. In the entire show the moments of pure, unfiltered, real emotion are extremely rare, and Daemon is a victim of that.

Since they have not established that emotional core for him, they cannot go full force on his vilest act either. The two go hand in hand. The one motivates the other. Of course you're gonna tell me that in the show, he still orchestrated Blood and Cheese and he is still technically responsible for everything that happened. Matt was still seething with fury throughout the entire episode. Fine. It is still far less impactful than the book version, far less powerful, far less horrifying, because the motivation behind it is flimsy, because Daemon's characterization is hollow. In the book, Daemon was both greater and meaner. He was just more, in every category. In the show, he didn't give me that "oh my fucking god" shocking moment I felt when I read the source material y'all call boring (!) in comparison to the adaptation.

Daemon's moral core is his family. Period. For his family, he becomes the blackest of monsters, without scruples and without mercy. That's what "light and darkness in equal parts" means. Both are necessary. The show ironically managed to dim both his good side and his evil side and turn this proud, fearsome, horrible, legendary Targ into a whiny man whose toy got stolen. Not the vibe. I hope they do better with the battle above god's eye.

[darklinaforever]

People who still use the scene where Daemon strangles Rhaenyra as an argument to justify all the bullshit that happens in HOTD with Daemyra's characters should be banned from speaking out after a while.

The choking scene was stupid and OCC. Daemon was never violent towards Rhaenyra in F&B.

And don't let anyone tell me that we can't be sure just because it's written as a historical text. GRRM never hesitates to expose this kind of thing. If he wanted us to understand that from Daemon he would have suggested it one way or another, except that's not the case so no, Daemon being physically violent with Rhaenyra never happened. It's that simple.

With this kind of argument you could definitely say that Daemon fuck Otto. It's stupid.

Rhaenyra also did not have a physical relationship with Mysaria. Both of these HOTD events are stupid. That's all.

To say that under the pretext that Daemon choked Rhaenyra in episode 10 that she can cheat on him shows to what extent these people have 0 understanding of what they are watching.

Basically as long as Daemon is demonized they are happy. And if we can also prove that Rhaenyra also likes women, that's even better !

And even better if this woman with whom Rhaenyra is cheating is precisely Daemon's ex, that way it gives the impression of a scenario where two female victims take revenge on their attacker in a karmic way ! (Yes, some idiots really think that...)

My god, HOTD is freaking stupid.

And tons of people really think this show is super well run and written ?! But wake up !

In addition, those who, under the pretext that the supposed deception is committed by Rhaenyra and between women against Daemon, suddenly no longer see any harm in it, disgust me.

Cheating is bad, no matter what.

At what point are those who are against this scenario equal to refusing to allow women to have hobbies ? Is that cheating is for you? A hobby ?

I was against Daemon cheating on Rhaenyra, an unproven F&B scenario no matter how much the antis claim otherwise, and I'm against the idea of ​​Rhaenyra cheating on Daemon, even more so with Mysaria.

First of all, Rhaenyra was never bisexual, that's bullshit. As much for F&B (because sorry, but no Rhaenyra was not in love with Laena and did not have a relationship with her), and as HOTD.

But at this point, if they really wanted to do that it would have actually been more coherent made between her and Laena, with whom she had a very close and close friendship, rather than queerbaiting with the character of Alicent and a supposed kiss (which I don't believe in until I saw it) with the Daemon's former mistress.

Anyway, I don't watch this show anymore. I'm just keeping up to date with the amount of shit that's going on.

[rhaenyrastark]

ships i like from got and hotd

i am very much a multi-shipper when it comes to the universe GRRM has written, i do have to say however there is one ship that i really dislike and will NEVER read; Jonerys (Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen), i always stop reading when this ship is mentioned in fanfiction and i will unfollow blogs that ship it. i ship people that i think would be good or interesting together (or if i just like both characters and would find them cute together)

got (game of thrones)

Jon Snow/Sansa Stark

Jon Snow/Ygritte

Samwell Tarly/Gilly

Khal Drogo/Daenerys Targaryen (i know this one is a bit controversial but i found them so cute by the end)

Sansa Stark/Tyrion Lannister

Jorah Mormont/Daenerys Targaryen (more tv show than the books)

Margaery Tyrell/Sansa Stark

Oberyn Martell/Ellaria Sand (just make Ellaria her season 4 characterisation or book ver because she is so weird in the tv show after s4)

Oberyn Martell/Sansa Stark

Oberyn Martell/Sansa Stark/Ellaria Sand (in a triangle type polyamorous relationship, i dislike reading v-shaped relationships)

Bran Stark/Meera Reed

Rickon Stark/Shireen Baratheon

Gendry Waters/Arya Stark

Sandor Clegane/Sansa Stark

Jon Snow/Arya Stark

Jon Snow/Robb Stark

Myranda/Ramsay Bolton (i love evil people with evil people that enable them to do more evil)

Trystane Martell/Myrcella Baratheon

Tormund Giantsbane/Brienne of Tarth

Talisa Maegyr/Robb Stark (i love Talisa, i thought their love story was such a cute thing from the show)

Arya Stark/Tywin Lannister (give me grown up version of Arya with Tywin, especially if they make the harrenhal scenes canon, *chef's kiss*)

Arya Stark/Jaqen H'ghar

Missandei/Grey Worm

Missandei/Daenerys Targaryen

Jaime Lannister/Cersei Lannister (toxic but they died in each others arms, tv show only)

Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth

Mirri Maz Duur/Revenge (Mirri deserved her revenge even if it inconvenienced Dany a bit)

Catelyn Tully/Ned Stark

Elia Martell/Rhaegar Targaryen/Lyanna Stark (i can only get behind Rhaegar/Lyanna if Elia is there with them and they all survive, otherwise its just shipping 2 people that started a rebellion because they didn't tell anyone what they were doing or a guy who stole and raped a women. Elia basically deserved better)

Aegon VI Targaryen (Young Griff)/Sansa Stark

Aegon VI Targaryen (Young Griff)/Arya Stark

Robb Stark/Roslin Frey

Loras Tyrell/Renly Baratheon

Stannis Baratheon/Davos Seaworth

Sansa Stark/Theon Greyjoy

hotd (house of the dragon)

DAEMON TARGARYEN/RHAENYRA TARGARYEN (i will ship this until the day i die)

Daemon Targaryen/Laena Velaryon

Daemon Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Rhaenyra Targaryen

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Harwin Strong/Laena Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Laenor Velaryon/Daemon Targaryen

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Laena Velaryon/Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen/Laenor Velaryon/Laena Velaryon/Harwin Strong

Laenor Velaryon/Daemon Targaryen

Harwin Strong/Daemon Targaryen

Laenor Velaryon/Harwin Strong

BASICALLY IF YOU COULDN'T TELL FROM THE ABSOLUTE LIST ABOVE I SHIP THE 5 (Rhaenyra, Laena, Daemon, Laenor, Harwin) IN ANY COMBINATION POSSIBLE BUT I CAN'T THINK OF ANY MORE COMBINATIONS RIGHT NOW

Aegon II Targaryen/Rhaenyra Targaryen/Daemon Targaryen

Aemond Targaryen/Helaena Targaryen

Baela Targaryen/Jacaerys Velaryon

Rhaena Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon

Jacaerys Targaryen/Cregan Stark/Baela Targaryen (again in a triangle not a v)

Baela Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon

Rhaena Targaryen/Jacaerys Velaryon

Aegon III Targaryen/Daenaera Velaryon

Aemond Targaryen/Lucerys Velaryon (only in very specific circumstances; (1) when Aemond turns to team Black/doesn't fight for team Green, (2) when Rhaenyra is guaranteed to become Queen in the fic or (3) non-canon compliant e.g. no killing Lucerys, etc.)

Alicent Hightower/Criston Cole (they deserve each other, both sexually repressed and doing things for 'duty' sake)

Corlys Velaryon/Rhaenys Targaryen

Laenor Velaryon/Joffrey Lonmouth

Laenor Velaryon/Qarl Correy

[hollowwhisperings]

Jojen is Fine, Actually: "Weirwood Paste" is Weirwood Paste.

CW: humanitarian diets, body horror, general blasphemy, mention of grooming (in the context of creepy tree wizards).

Okay so my being a HUGE Jojen (& House Reed in general) fan gives me an Obvious Bias against the idea of Jojen Dying Offscreen.

My being a huge literary nerd & lore geek, however, informs my Metaphor Senses that Jojen is Fine*, Actually.

The "Weirwood Paste" is Weirwood Paste: made of weirwood seeds, locally sourced. Said "Local Weirwood Tree" being. Y'know. Brynden Rivers.

It's Brynden Paste.

(*Fine: chronically ill, majorly depressed, freezing cold, surrounded by creepy tree people, stuck in a zombie wasteland, if he ever goes home he Dies, repeatedly dreaming of his own death... but, at least, Not Dead nor Being Eaten by the Prince of his Dreams? He's "Fine".)

First and foremost: storytelling conventions, even in a series as "deliberately unconventional" as ASOIAF, tend to tell audiences that NO ONE is genuinely "dead" until you see a body. And personally check its pulse. And test for rigor mortis. And maybe stab them in a lethal place, jusr to be Sure. And then burn the body, scatter its ashes, send couriers off in different directions to hide what remains in Remote Places never to be known of by the other couriers. Maybe Silence the couriers if they come back.

Er, you get the picture.

Most subscribers to "Jojenpaste" are in it for the lolz or assume The Worst due to Jojen's non-presence in the latest Bran chapters (aaand Jojen's being Very Permanently Dead in That Dragon Show). It's also an "easy" assumption that Since GRRM Is GRRM, any & all opportunities for Humanitarianism will be fully utilized.

Except... the weirwood paste is ALREADY "made of people" just because it's Weirwood (specifically, weirwood seeds) and the series has consistently described weirwood trees as "[human]".

Weirwood have "bone white" bark; they have Faces carved into them; they "Watch" and "Listen" and "Witness": this is consistent across POV characters, even before Jojen casually brings up "oh they're what Greenseers Become" or any meetings with a Literal Tree Man.

Weirwoods are described in human terms, doing human things, and at least 1 major character has been directly equivicated with Weirwoods for Plot Purposes: Ghost the Direwolf (and wolves, of course, are consistently used to mean "someone of House Stark" and the Starklings especially).

Then there is The Creepy Tree Man in the room: Brynden Rivers, called "Three-Eyed Raven" by Bran and Jojen (for that was how their Dreams interpreted him) or "The Last Greenseer" by the Singers (...despite BRAN very pointedly Being There To Prove Otherwise).

Brynden is also, as mentioned, a Tree Now.

A Weirwood Tree.

Y'know. Like the ones whose seeds make the Paste Bran's been eating.

So, unless the Singers have been sneaking about in Others' Territory to collect seeds from a different weirwood tree... that Paste is made of BRYNDEN.

Bran being fed "Brynden Paste' while Brynden Indoctrinates Teaches Bran to be a Tree Wizard makes far more sense, logistically & thematically, than Jojen getting shanked offscreen to belatedly be revealed to be "part of Bran all along".

For one thing, Meera would gladly set the Cave & everyone in it on fire if anyone so much as looks at her baby brother suspiciously. For another, Brynden is Right There for the eating & is filled with all sorts of Prophecy Juice: he's a Blackwood, he's a Targaryen, he's a Royal Bastard, he was an Infamous Spymaster with "A thousand eyes and one", he's done weird sacrifice BS before, he's a Greenseer (Jojen "only" has Greensight), he's a Living God (as per Singer & First Men Lore), the Cave Cult is trying to turn Bran INTO him...

There is a lot more "logic" to Bran's Magic Lessons featuring his knowingly (subconsciously, at least) eating Brynden than his secretly eating his friend. Human sacrifice tends to require Knowledge of the cost being paid & being Willing to do it anyway: Bran might be too tripped up on Paste to consciously connect the "Weirwood Paste" he eats with "that Human Weirwood Tree i'm sitting next to" but the Singers explicitly tell Bran the Paste is made from Weirwood Seeds. Bran "knows".

Godeating (metaphoric & literal) is a trope that is most commonly found in JRPGs, nowadays, but it has Precedent throughout western mythology: the Titan Kronus ate each of his children as they were born, Zeus alone escaping, in an effort to Dodge Prophecy; Zeus inherited Said Prophecy and, being his Father's Son, ate his first wife. The details of the Titanomachy (the War against the Titans by their reasonably upset kids) are Lost but Zeus, at least, gained all his Wife's Wisdom (& her pregnancy too) after eating her: Athena may or may not have Taken It Back upon breaking out from her Eaten Mother & Dear Old Dad.

Consuming something in order to "become" what is eaten is Fairly Common, if not with that specific phrasing: vampires seldom explain their reproduction as "eat me to become me", whilst the adorable Nintendo character Kirby & his method of Powering Up via Playing Vacuum, is Rephrased out of Sheer Self-Preservation (no one, not even I, likes to admit that The Cute Pink Blob is an Eldritch Abomination). Many JRPGs & works in eastern media use similar themes of "monster eats monster" and "let's eat god" for the purposes of High Stakes Action. Japan & East Asia has a lot less "baggage" when it comes to utilizing themes from Abrahamic verse, meaning that western works using themes of [consuming the divine] and [apotheosis] use Vampire Methodology. Such is the case in the Dragon Age series & its Order of Grey Wardens (who are, From A Certain POV, dragon god vampires).

Within the ASOIAF series itself, Dany's eating a horse heart (raw) has Humanitarian Themes in service of Prophecy and [Divinity]: the horse heart to the Dothraki, a society of horselords, could be what weirwood seeds are to First Men (especially given Jojen's whole "btw, the trees are gods are former greenseers").

Brynden & the Cave's Singers (whom I dearly hope are some long-exiled Cult & not reflective of Singers as a whole) are not particularly subtle in their Intentions for Bran: he is to be their New "Last" Greenseer. Bran is to Become Brynden or Brynden is to Become Bran: either and possibly both are plausible, though how compliant with the Singers' goals Brynden may be has yet to be revealed.

(the Brynden of F&B and D&E strikes me as someone who would gladly bodysnatch some poor kid for his own Agenda: the Singers seem unlikely to support fire-breathing foreigners, not without a Contingency Plan; somewhat likely to want Bran for the purposes of installing a Tree Hivemind Police State; and maybe, possibly... "just" wanting a Second God for their Cult in Bran, who probably Smells Better).

SUMMARY

Weirwoods are Personified in almost every appearance. Weirwood Trees are considered Gods. Jojen (& some Singers) have stated that the Next Evolutionary Phase of a Greenseer is "Weirwood Tree". Brynden "the Last Greenseer" is part of a Weirwood Tree.

Brynden & the Singers are Turning Bran Into A Weirwood Tree.

Bran's current diet is Tree Paste. His magic teacher, Brynden, is Part-Tree. The Nearest Tree to make Paste from is Brynden. The Paste is made of Brynden.

(Let's NOT think too hard on which parts of Brynden: I've only gotten this far in this Meta by using "Hunanitarian" as a pun.)

Eating Gods to Become A God is an existing Trope. Brynden is a God, by Singer & First Men definitions. Bran is being Groomed to Become Brynden, a God. To Become Brynden, Bran must Eat Brynden.

TL;DR

The Weirwood Paste is Weirwood Paste and Brynden is the Weirwood: the Paste is not "Jojen", it's BRYNDEN.

Jojen is Not Paste: Jojen is Alive but Not Well & Very Depressed.

[emblazons]

Honesty Hour: I am literally never going to understand “Duffer doubt” or full abject disappointment in them as show runners…and it’s because their story makes sense.

Like. The fear for queer rep thing I understand completely, but so far, even with how little I resonated with S3 or S4-2 at first…they are solid writers with a sense of both direction and their audience, and I have no core issues with what they’ve presented.

Forewarning: pettiness, byler doubt (only mentions for context) & potential elitism idk (it’s also a little long lmao)

This idea The Duffers are gonna drop every single thing they’ve set up from the get go to accommodate the most surface level, least in-character storyline “because heteronormativity” is absolutely insane to me. The idea that, after setting up FOUR SEASONS of buildup, they’re going to kill off the primary protagonist of S1 and drop every single character lesson / core narrative to shove the YOUNGEST CHARACTERS in the gd show into a Disney fantasy marriage is crazy. I literally don’t even know how to imagine them doing that—not because it has never happened in a show, but because hearing them talk about ST makes it clear it’s BEEN mapped from the get, and they have explained clearly why certain things went the way they did in their own way.

Noah got cast on a monologue from a second season before they even have a confirmation of its existence, and character traits we are just pulling on now in characters like Mike (his insecurity especially) are written CLEAR AS DAY in the PITCH OF THE SHOW. Every single sign people on THIS LITERAL APP have pointed to for Y E A R S before S4 that Will was gay turned out to be right, and there has been, from the very first moment Netflix picked this thing up, a 25 page document where they broke down the UD lore.

Where on literal earth are people getting that they have no idea what they’re doing? Or that the lore people point to as foreshadowing is gonna get thrown out the window in the final season of the show? I get being nervous or anxious that your favorite character might not get all the time you want, or even being afraid that they won’t dig into all the things you want personally, but…the idea that two self-proclaimed film boys who were as into their inspirations as we are their show are going to undermine their own narrative integrity to pull a 180 on every theme they’ve set up from the get go and start killing off characters who are front and center in the “we tell the stories of the outcasts as a fuck you to the people who make media we think sucks” narrative? I’m gonna need you to be serious.

As a long time fan and fandom consumer of television, and someone who had to live through being invested in Game of Thrones, I am saying with my whole chest that the doubt is entirely emotional rather than based on anything objective that the duffers have said or done.

They’re not D&D from GoT, who were great ADAPTORS but who just started winging it because they didn’t have completed source material from GRRM. They aren’t the Voltron writers who had a good premise but mixed it all up because of firing their best writers and then caving to fandom nonsense. They aren’t the supernatural writers, or the Sherlock writers who set up an ongoing joke without the follow through people expected. They are the Duffers. And while their writing style is nothing like what I would do, they are telling a story that I can follow and respect until proven otherwise.

All this talk about “mistakes” and the like, even with queer rep. Like??? They released this show in 2016, and the last several years in its country of origin have been absolutely steeped in a horrifying level of bigotry both sociopolitically and in media. Stranger Things was released the same year Tr*mp was elected, and still managed to stand in abject criticism of every value on display in American conservatism ever since.

The push and pull of what was “allowed” in media because of the cultural insanity & bigotry that moved to center stage in the United States makes it clear why they didn’t bring their queer storyline to the fore at first glance and just put it in the subtext—to tell the story without being undermined by the “two seasons and cancelled” era of Netflix before it got huge (because, as we all know, Netflix and cancelling shows is a huge problem for many writers to this literal day) and to keep the bigots on main from noticing it until the train was too fast to stop. That’s what we’re dealing with now—a lot of people yelling loudly on places like Reddit, expecting to be consoled in in their homophobia and bigotry, because now Stranger Things is popular and far along enough to start saying the quiet part (that has ALWAYS been there) out loud.

Hiding the queer storyline in the subtext is something people have done in tv and film for DECADES anyway, and in literature for CENTURIES before that…but somehow the fact that it wasn’t made explicit until the fourth season invalidates it? Or makes it suddenly a reason to call into question the integrity of the entire show, or to let some random m*leven shipper undermine your sense of what makes a good story (which is also what matters most to the “we don’t listen to Reddit, and we regret focusing more on fan theories than our plot” duffers)? Once again: I’m gonna need you to be serious.

All I’m saying is that the way some people in this fandom are willing to believe and agonize over the takes of 18-19 year old actors or a random twitter account or YouTuber instead of listening to the creators of the show + looking at cultural context and how queer stories have been told for eons is crazy. It reeks of immaturity insecurity and media illiteracy, and gives two guys who have put a lot of time and (ADMITTEDLY IMPERFECT) effort into a show that remains one of the best told stories (despite network interference) in recent memory.

I get being nervous. I get being suspicious. But critical consumption & media literacy is more than just theorizing about what things mean or watching what inspired The Duffers. Stop looking at social media posts and randoms for information and start paying attention to the people who MAKE the things you’re so emotionally attached to in their context. I am literally begging at this point.

[agentrouka-blog]

How do you think Robb reacted to the news of Sansa's marriage in private- versus the king visage he is forced to adopt when delivering the news to Cat?

I don't think Robb is adopting his kingly persona when he tells Cat the news. He certainly wouldn't be forced to. 

Within this conversation, we have one of the last moments where Robb is, in fact, not hiding behind his kingly role in facing Catelyn. 

His king face is something he puts on when performing the role for others - and occasionally as a weapon against Catelyn within that context. His grand theatrical forgiveness of Catelyn for freeing Jaime, carefully leading into the introduction of Jeyne and his broken betrothal is an example of that. Or his public announcement that she will be kept as a prisoner guest at Seagard after Edmure's wedding. It's usually moments where he is using his role as a cover for his cowardice. He traps Catelyn into being unable to voice her opinion without publicly undermining him, and he knows she would not do that to her own son. He is never more a child than when he hides behind his kingship to avoid mommy's censure.

This moment is not an example of Robb's king face, though. 

There are no witnesses, no carefully callibrated lines, no ritualistic platitudes. He deliberately waits until they can be alone, leads her on a walk toward the godswood. GRRM takes care to emphasize the armistice between them. “Your Grace” -> “Mother”.

Only when the last of them was done did he turn back to Catelyn. “There is something we must speak of. Will you walk with me?”

“As you command, Your Grace.”

“That wasn’t a command, Mother.”

“It will be my pleasure, then.” (ASOS, Catelyn IV)

 It’s not a king informing his subject. It’s a son imparting bad news to his mother. Just Robb ranting and working up the courage to tell her what happened. He’s obviously hesitant, trying to feel out where they stand, after they both created chaos, after the mess of the Karstark treason and beheading, knowing that this subject of his sisters is their greatest conflict.

He opens by conceding that she was right about trading for Sansa.

“I should have traded the Kingslayer for Sansa when you first urged it,” Robb said as they walked the gallery. “If I’d offered to wed her to the Knight of Flowers, the Tyrells might be ours instead of Joffrey’s. I should have thought of that.” 

Cat reassures him that he did his best. 

He goes on to emphasize his uncertainty and sense of failure.

“I have won every battle, yet somehow I’m losing the war.” He looked up, as if the answer might be written on the sky. “The ironmen hold Winterfell, and Moat Cailin too. Father’s dead, and Bran and Rickon, maybe Arya. And now your father too.”

Cat assures him that his father would be proud of him. 

Only then - assured of her regard and support - does he open up about what happened, with such a sense of vague gravity that Catelyn thinks Sansa is dead. 

“Gone?” He looked startled. “Dead? Oh, Mother, no, not that, they haven’t harmed her, not that way, only … a bird came last night, but I couldn’t bring myself to tell you, not until your father was sent to his rest.” Robb took her hand. “They married her to Tyrion Lannister.”

I don’t think his reaction there is performed or in its essence different from what he felt when he first learned about it. He’s openly angry, voices regrets and frustration at his own helplessness. (A hint at how this conversation will end lies in how he is still couching his regret in serving the war effort by using Sansa for his own alliance plans. Sansa as a person still isn’t allowed to matter.) 

And he is careful to try and find common ground again with Catelyn over this. He emphasizes that they are both angry at Tyrion and the Lannisters for being utterly untrustworthy, he doesn’t try to berate Catelyn as naive for having hoped otherwise. He commiserates with her in feeling helpless. This is a son who is sharing bad news and wanting to properly reconcile with his mother. 

This is genuinely how he feels. He is distraught and uncertain. They both are!

“We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?”

“He’s the Kingslayer’s brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood.” Robb’s fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. “If I could I’d take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.”

And for a moment they are as close as ever. Catelyn and he both understand that the Lannisters are counting on Sansa’s claim in the event of Robb’s death.

But almost immediately, their differences rear their head again. Their feelings are the same, their conclusions are not.

“I am not dead yet, Mother.”

Suddenly Catelyn was full of dread. “Wars need not be fought until the last drop of blood.” Even she could hear the desperation in her voice. “You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark.”

His mouth tightened. “No. Never.”

And just like that they are at odds again. Robb would never consider bending the knee and making peace just to prevent more bloodshed and his own potential death. He accuses her of neglecting Ned’s memory, which he holds up over any living interest, any consideration of peace. Ned he would have traded for the kingslayer, but not the girls. They never finished that conversation about why, and it’s plain the reason hasn’t changed, not really. He wed his sword the day they cut off Ned’s head. 

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce. His longsword was before him, the point thrust in the earth, his gloved hands clasped around the hilt. (AGOT, Catelyn XI)

And he is faithful to his bride.

He pulled his hand from hers. “Never, I said.”

He is playing the boy now, not the king. (...) 

Robb’s face was cold. (...) 

Catelyn had never struck her children in anger, but she almost struck Robb then. It was an effort to remind herself how frightened and alone he must feel. (...) “Do I have your leave to go?”

“Yes.” He turned away and drew his sword. What he meant to do with it, she could not say. There was no enemy there, no one to fight. Only her and him, amongst tall trees and fallen leaves. There are fights no sword can win, Catelyn wanted to tell him, but she feared the king was deaf to such words.

Earlier he had dismissed her formal reference to his title. But when she requests his permission to leave, he doesn’t do that again. He grants permission. Like a sovereign.

It is only at the end of the conversation, because Catelyn remains in disagreement with him, that they turn from mother and son to subject and king. 

They do a similar, much shorter dance in the following chapter, surrounding Jon’s legitimization and Cat’s impending imprisonment. Robb pulls up the drawbridge. Until that last moment.

“No.” Robb’s voice was whisper faint. “Mother, no …”

“Yes. Robb, get up. Get up and walk out, please, please. Save yourself … if not for me, for Jeyne.”

“Jeyne?” Robb grabbed the edge of the table and forced himself to stand. “Mother,” he said, “Grey Wind …” (ASOS, Catelyn VII)

The same conversation they have been having all through the books. “Save yourself.” - “Mother.” 

[waitingforwinterwinds]

ASOS; Steel and Snow: 23 DAENERYS II (pages 311-330)

Missandei has her special guest cameo as Dany inspects the slave army Unsullied while being insulted by a man who doesn't know she speaks the language. Jorah pushes for her to go ahead and buy the army.

-

- and in the center of the fountain a monstrous harpy made of hammered bronze. Twenty feet tall she reared. She had a woman's face, with gilded hair, ivory eyes, and pointed ivory teeth. Water gushed yellow from her heavy breasts.

this sounds really cool, but also makes me horrifically curious about GRRM's porn viewing habits for reasons I can't explain.

🎶49 times we fought that beast🎶your old man an me🎶it had a chicken head with duck feet🎶and a woman's face too🎶 ...sorry, where was I?

... psh, slaver bastard's taking advantage of the perceived language barrier to be a complete rude piece of trash.

"The Good Master Kraznys asks, are they not magnificent?" The girl spoke the Common tongue well, for one who had never been to Westeros. No older than ten, she had the round flat face, dusky skin, and golden eyes of Naath. The Peaceful People, her folk were called.

Missandei!!! She's only ten? wow, D&D went hard with the age up. Like I knew she was a lot younger in the books, but show Missandei has to be, what? 18 at the youngest? early twenties? ... brb googling. ... yeah that's what I thought, her actress was about 22-23 when she first played Missandei.

... wow, just look how quickly these human rights violations are stacking up. It's like, GRRM is really determined to drive home how horrible these slave owners are, like we couldn't tell they were trash human beings just from them being slave owners.

The Unsullied need to Unionise.

This chapter is so fucking gross.

"- Tell her they are like Valyrian steel, folded over and over and hammered for years on end until they are stronger than any metal on earth."

Valyrian steel = 🍷

"Better to come a beggar than a slaver," Arstan said. "There speaks one who has been neither," Dany's nostrils flared, "Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I... my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid? ... "Only lies offend me, never honest counsel. (...) I have a dragon's temper, that's all.You must not let it frighten you."

It will be interesting to see if there's hints of that further in, her fear vs her temper, and whether there's a slide of the scales from one to the other.

She had taken care never to be alone with Ser Jorah after that, keeping her handmaidens with her aboard ship, and sometimes her bloodriders.

good thinking. throw him over board if need be!

... Irri/Dany has a major power imbalance, yet is still somehow healthier than the rest of her ships thus far.

"- I saw these sons of the harpy today, all their proud highborn warriors. They dress in linen skirts, and the fiercest thing about them was their hair. -"

local cops just rich sons in world's trashiest LARP cosplay, confirmed.

"There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone." "Tell me, then - when he touched a man on the shoulder with his sword, what did he say? 'Go forth and kill the weak'? Or 'Go forth and defend them'? (...) did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar's cause, or because they had been bought and paid for?" (...) "My queen, (...) all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. (...) Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

You know, for all it hung over parts of the show, I feel like Rhaegar and Lyanna just didn't haunt the story of the show enough. They're a tragic backstory that gets trotted out for special occasions but mostly gathers dust on the mantle.

Not so, here in the books, where they remain characters even though they've both been dead for over a decade.

Here, we see Jorah using Rhaegar to jostle Dany down the slippery slope of compromise. Dany wants to do the right thing, the good and just and clearly morally correct thing, and she's going to try to find a moral solution she can live with, but there's Jorah at her side reminding her that being a good person* is what got Rhaegar killed. Suggesting the slave army and then continuing to steer her to partake in mass slavery, he just keeps "it's for the greater good"ing this. And if this is acceptable in the name of Dany's greater good, then what else is. If this much is okay, then surely just a bit more is okay, and a bit more is okay, and a bit more until you're miles from where you started and you aren't really sure how you got there but you're in too deep to get out.

*Rhaegar's goodness is debatable and subject to personal perspective. I'd taze him.

"- His blood swirled down the river with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse t steal the Iron Throne. -"

ruby | rubies = 🍷

[rise-my-angel]

This is what I wish more modern show fans of this series would consider. That a lot of the time, grrm WANTS to challenge you on your opinions of these characters.

He makes the heroes do stupid, fucked up, or indefensible things to force you to remember these are just humans who make mistakes and you should not look at them in pure worship.

But he also makes characters who he has built you to hate, and dolls out what feels like karamtic justice only for you to realize that they do not deserve the degree of punishment they are getting. It forces you to look at your own enemy and have sympathy for the fact that under all that is someone just like us.

In the books, our first introduction to Theon is Bran and Jon watching him kick a decapitated head and Jon calls him an ass. It paints a picture of who this guy is, and you rally for him to get his just desserts and then he does, and you feel sick that this is the punishment. It forces you to realize that cruelty us never justice and you should not want it to happen to the characters, because it's not that that specific character doesn't deserve that it's that no one does.

It's why he gives otherwise whole unlikable villainous characters, really emotional and horrifying deaths. It's why Viserys III and Joffery Baratheons deaths are not painted as justified, but horrific and terrifying. You should hate them, but grrm wants you to look at yourself and ask do you hate them so much that they deserve brutal torture and untold cruelty?

Because the answer is no. He does not want you to worship your favourites as always in the right. Even when their logic is justified, they still do things that you can, will, and should protest against. Because they're still human and will make decisions that are not the best even when they think it is. For example my favourite character Jon Snow, swapping Gilly andvMances baby makes sense with his logic but I hate it a lot. It makes me look at Jon and think what is wrong with you that's not okay, even if he gave a genuinly logical reason. It didn't make him any less my favorite character, but it forces me to remember he is not without his own deserving of criticism.

And on the flip side, Cersei was the best example. Now she is also one of my favorite characters in the books, but she really digs her own grave. You can love her and still feel like you cannot wait for her own terrible plans to blow up in her face, because even if you love her, you think God does she deserve to be punished for all this shit she's caused.

Then she does her walk of atonement and it is one of the most heartbreaking sequences. It is so utterly dehumanizing for her and it's a trauma that will never leave her for the rest of her life and your basically forced to go on this walk with her. It's gut wrenching how quickly you realize you were wrong, that she does not deserve this because no one deserves this pure humiliation.

It's amazing at the end of a long arc where she is so consistently in the wrong, by the time you reach the consequences she should face, grrm forces you to look at yourself and make you ask, does your hatred of what she's done TRULY make her deserving of something this painfully cruel?

But the thing is, is that a modern trend in this fandom, show and book, is that the audience seems to have forgotten this. Good characters are always in the right and never should be critized even when they should be, and people who do bad things are nothing more then monsters who deserve no humanity shown towards them.

I hate Daenerys Targaryean, and yet each rewatch of season 1 or reread of the first book, even through that hate I still find myself enjoying watching her grow independent and confident for once in her life. I find her growth satisfying until she takes it too far, but that doesn't mean I wish she never found that confidence in the first place. I also still find her even during her arcs that have me throughly against her, funny sometimes. The way she genuinly tells Grey Worm, Ser Barristan, and Jorah in succession that they are too important and mean too much to her to risk sending against the champion of Meereen, being followed by how quickly and dryly she agrees to just let Daario Naharas to do it by basically just being like "don't fuck it up, idiot." It's funny, I hate her, but she's still funny and her budding romance with Daario IS charming. I can find humanity in this character I hate because grrm knows how to force it's audience to challenge their own views.

A Song of Ice and Fire is special because it challenges its audience as much as it does its characters on their own sense of morality, and I think that's something more modern fans of the shows in particular should remember more. Because I think we've gotten too complacent with thinking the characters in asoiaf exist on a spectrum of only good or evil, when in grrms world, no one exists there.

It's not a coincidence that Melisandre tells Davos that "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil." Comes in tandem with a scene in the books where Sam in facts, seperates the rotten half of an onion and manages to salvage the rest of it to be eaten safely.

He presents someone who thinks the world is this way, then shows you with silent action, that the notion is an inaccurate way to look at the world.

Honestly, one of my favorite things about GRRM's writing in asoiaf is how it turns the reader's bloodthirstiness against them.

Take Theon in ACOK, you are cheering in his final chapter because finally! Just desserts for that arrogant foolish bastard!

You read how the Bolton's have him captured in ASOS and say "Heh, good riddance".

And then... you read Reek chapters and with growing horror, you realize who is the person narrating. And suddenly, this need for payback, for him to face justice, doesn't feel that righteous anymore. No person should go through this.

The same goes for Cersei, her blaze of cruelty and scheming catches up to her when the sparrows imprison her. FINALLY, justice! and... you can only stare in horror and disgust at the walk of atonement scene. There is no vindication to be found here.

[astradrifting]

 AGOT - Jon I (Chapter 5)

There were times—not many, but a few—when Jon Snow was glad he was a bastard. As he filled his wine cup once more from a passing flagon, it struck him that this might be one of them.

I don’t know why D&D decided Jon could never lie, when literally the first line in his POV is a lie. He’s so good at it he can even lie to himself!

****

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire, the clangor of pewter plates and cups, and the low mutter of a hundred drunken conversations.

A singer with a high harp and a ballad seems like a vague Rhaegar allusion. That Jon can’t actually hear him makes me happy in a very petty way.

****

His lord father had come first, escorting the queen. She was as beautiful as men said. A jeweled tiara gleamed amidst her long golden hair, its emeralds a perfect match for the green of her eyes. His father helped her up the steps to the dais and led her to her seat, but the queen never so much as looked at him. Even at fourteen, Jon could see through her smile.

I think this part is actually Jon being indignant on Ned’s behalf that Cersei was rude to him, by not looking at him when he escorts her, not that she never looked at Jon. Also, there’s those observation skills. He’s never been taken in by a pretty smile.

****

After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit.

Adorable!!!

****

Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn’t even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.

Jon’s a mean drunk I guess 💀

****

Sansa, two years older, drew the crown prince, Joffrey Baratheon. He was twelve, younger than Jon or Robb, but taller than either, to Jon’s vast dismay. Prince Joffrey had his sister’s hair and his mother’s deep green eyes. A thick tangle of blond curls dripped down past his golden choker and high velvet collar. Sansa looked radiant as she walked beside him, but Jon did not like Joffrey’s pouty lips or the bored, disdainful way he looked at Winterfell’s Great Hall.

Joffrey according to Jon: 👁👄👁

But Sansa looked radiant 🥰

****

He was more interested in the pair that came behind him: the queen’s brothers, the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. The Lion and the Imp; there was no mistaking which was which. Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak. On the breast of his tunic, the lion of his House was embroidered in gold thread, roaring its defiance. They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered “Kingslayer” behind his back. Jon found it hard to look away from him.

This is what a king should look like, he thought to himself as the man passed.

Giving me big ‘muscled like a maiden’s fantasy’ vibes there, Jon.

Also, curiously enough Jaime’s introduced wearing black and red, Targaryen colours. Maybe a nod to the incest storyline, possibly leftover foreshadowing from when Jaime was going to become king, as per the outline.

Otherwise this means that, like everybody else in this story, Jaime is a secret Targaryen. He and Cersei can join the ranks of Jon, Tyrion, Varys, Mance Rayder and while we’re at it… *spins a wheel of names* Meera too.

****

His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall, and no one had said a word about his pup. He told himself he was fortunate in that too.

His eyes stung. Jon rubbed at them savagely, cursing the smoke.

Jon spends half this chapter on the verge of tears, my angsty little lad.

****

Jon looked up happily as his uncle Ben put a hand on his head and ruffled his hair much as Jon had ruffled the wolf’s.

They actually call him Ben and ‘uncle Ben’ a few times in the series, which I honestly think might be a Spider-Man allusion. Surrogate father figure Uncle Ben’s early disappearance/death kicking off the plot… There’s also a saying that nobody stays dead in comics except for Uncle Ben - considering all the other resurrections in the books, metaphorical and literal, yet GRRM says that Benjen isn’t Coldhands, it might be the same for this Uncle Ben too.

****

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

"[Garlan] is a great knight," Ser Loras replied. "A better sword than me, in truth, though I'm the better lance." (ASOS, Sansa I)

Love a Jon-Garlan parallel! Also thinking about Garlan being the older brother made me realise - in the story everyone thinks that Jon is younger than Robb, but timeline-wise, he has to be older, because Robb was conceived in the two weeks before Ned left to fight at the Trident, and Rhaegar must have at least already been in the capital by then to rally the loyalists, so Jon was conceived weeks, if not months earlier. Which means that Ned has definitely lied about when Jon’s birthday is.

Jon being the product of a ‘youthful indiscretion’ before he was married is less of a stain on Ned’s honour than him betraying his marriage bed but I imagine Catelyn’s fears about Jon usurping her children might have had more basis if he was known to be the eldest, so maybe that’s why Ned lied about how old he is.

****

“Daeron Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes. 

"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Also," he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeron Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"

Jon is unfortunately, a jock. And a bit of an idiot. 

There’s something about Jon’s hero dying at 18, Waymar dying at 18 just a few chapters ago... Jon has them all beat by dying at 17.

****

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.”

Establishing Benjen as a somewhat contentious father figure to Jon - even more fuel for my brand new Uncle Ben ‘theory’.

****

The wolf pup padded closer and nuzzled at Jon's face, but he kept a wary eye on Tyrion Lannister, and when the dwarf reached out to pet him, he drew back and bared his fangs in a silent snarl. 

"Shy, isn't he?" Lannister observed.

"Sit, Ghost," Jon commanded. "That's it. Keep still." He looked up at the dwarf. "You can touch him now. He won't move until I tell him to. I've been training him."

Possibly he and Sansa are the only ones who properly trained their direwolves, considering how the rest of them will end up behaving.

****

“If I wasn’t here, he’d tear out your throat,” Jon said. It wasn’t actually true yet, but it would be.

Pffffft! Edgy edgy edge-lord 💀

Though I also always feel like issuing casual threats to Tyrion Lannister so I can’t really blame him.

****

Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

He’s got a weird preoccupation with comparing his height to Lannister men in this chapter. My headcanon for the books is that Jon’s quite tall by ADWD but evidently he’s tiny in AGOT if he feels strange being tall next to a dwarf.

****

final thoughts:

Believe it or not, I didn’t actually have Jonsa in mind with my new Uncle Ben theory, but I did just remember that brown haired Peter Parker’s main love interest is red-haired MJ :P

[kylandara]

Quora: Why did Grey Worm back Daenerys?

by Kelsey

What else was he supposed to do?

Everyone feels the warm fuzzies when Daenerys frees the Unsullied and they end up fighting for her anyway, but: That’s all they know how to do. Their literal brain chemistry is altered through drugs (this is explained more in the books), most of them have no families to return to or no way of knowing if their families are still where they left them, and they’re conditioned to fight as a collective and to take limited initiative, if any (that’s part of what makes them such good defenders; they can stand ground and guard people/property without having to proactively make additional decisions).

Even when Grey Worm took over leadership of the Unsullied, all he ultimately did was relay Dany’s orders back to the soldiers. While he and Missandei pushed back against Tyrion’s actions in Meereen, I don’t remember him ever questioning Dany, criticizing or offering feedback on her orders, making his own suggestions regarding a course of action, or otherwise acting out on his own until the very end of the story, when he and Missandei were planning to leave together (whether Dany would have allowed this, and what they’d have done if she didn’t, was left on the table). Grey Worm received his freedom and exercised that freedom by, uh, doing what he presumably would have done even if he’d never been freed.

Which is (nominally) his choice, but that’s always been what made me so uncomfortable about the Dany/Unsullied dynamic: It’s never really clear how much of their devotion is rooted in sincerely held gratitude, and how much of it is just that this is all they know how to do, so they’re doing it, and would have done it even if they were still enslaved.

I do wonder if GRRM is tweaking readers deliberately here or posing an ethical conundrum: If the Unsullied were still slaves, what would they be doing differently? And if the answer is nothing — and I think it is — then how much credit should Dany get for freeing them? Is that act worthy still, or is it a cop-out, given that it cost her nothing and gained her everything? Which is a running theme in Dany’s abolition arc: She’s tolerant of slavery when she’s earning off it, less so when she’s the one paying. If there’s no cost to her in freeing the Unsullied — because they’re doing what they would have done anyway — then to what extent, if any, is that an accurate illustration of her antislavery commitment? It’s easy to do the right thing when there’s no downside in it for you. While giving a surface-level “rah rah” moment — the Unsullied are free! — GRRM actually skirts the major issue by never addressing what Dany would have done if, say, half the troops had said thanks but no thanks and left. (He skirts it again later by turning Dany’s opposition in Meereen into masked bogeymen as opposed to grateful citizens who nonetheless don’t want Dany to rule their city.)

It’s also telling that Grey Worm uses his own freedom to abet Dany in denying freedom to others; he is allowed to choose, but no one else is, unless they, like him, choose Dany (in a similar vein to Missandei’s “she’s the queen we chose” spiel, equally devoid of self-awareness). To state the obvious, “Daenerys or death” is no choice. And if Grey Worm lacks the awareness to see what he’s now doing — taking agency away from others — then that makes me wonder whether he really sees serving Dany as some great expression of liberty on his part, or has deluded himself into thinking that’s what it is, or if it was never about that in the first place. I hope we can all recognize that “I can choose but you can’t” is problematic?!

[mirrorstone]

For my preferred genre (sci-fi/fantasy) I'd say 700 pages is where a book tips over into long for me. Most books can tell the story they want to tell in 400-500 pages, so that's the perfect length for most books. (Shorter if it's YA SFF, but I'm mostly talking about adult SFF.) There is, however, a big difference between a long book and a too long book, and at 600 pages is generally about where that divide appears.

Some authors shine when given 600+ pages to stretch their wings, and they tell a story that uses every single page to the fullest. (Garth Nix's Lirael for instance, or Jacqueline Carey make full use of their door-stopper page count.) A long book is great, because you want more of the story and there is more.

A book that's too long isn't measured by page count per say, but by whether it's dragging out a story that should have ended 100 pages ago. I recently read a book (by an indie author who I otherwise like, so I'm not going to name names) that passed the 600 page mark, that I ended up not finishing at about 90% of the way in, because the plot should have been wrapped up two climactic confrontations ago but it just kept going. As a result, the tension and my engagement gradually bled out until I realized I just didn't care how they finally resolved the last twist. That was too long.

The famed door-stopper the Game of Thrones series is a weird gray area, because while I can't really say they're too long, I don't think they're the right length either. Sure, GRRM could probably have told the story he was telling about a war between various factions for the throne and an ice zombie invasion in a tight 1000 pages, but the story he wanted to tell was how the individual lives of the big cast of characters interweave and affect those events, so telling him to make it shorter is kind of like telling someone weaving a tapestry that they should be weaving a handkerchief. My beef with the books is that my experience of reading the first three novels was largely of reading one really long story, where the divisions between books felt arbitrary. I think, if he wasn't a coward, he should have waited until he'd written the whole thing and published it as one single 10k page volume instead.

[darklinaforever]

Lol. When I come across this kind of crap, I always wonder how many brain cells are working in these people's brains. Are they being stupid on purpose ? I'm sick of this kind of bullshit. GRRM didn't write a story portraying Rhaenyra as not meant to be queen. Stop thinking you're smarter by spewing such bullshit. Rhaenyra should have been queen, if only to set a fucking precedent !

All the criticisms made about Rhaenyra's incompetence are very bad.(and I'm talking in general, not really / only about the video) To hear them, she should have foreseen everything and been a great feminist. Otherwise, it is unworthy. Worse, going to Dragonstone was apparently a mistake on his part. Oh yes ? Are we talking about the official seat / residence of the heir that she must manage in a somewhat obligatory manner given her position ? The basic stuff. I love the paradox of this argument. Rhaenyra would have had to go sooner or later anyway. What should she have done ? Stay at court and suffer daily harassment from Alicent ? Also, I love some of the arguments in the comments. Rhaenyra abandoned her father ! The joke... Are we talking about the man who always tolerated Alicent's abuse towards his daughter ? People stoanp trying to find excuses for their hatred of the character for misogyny. Nobody is fooled.

And I'm not even going to dwell on other stupid comments still saying that Daemon groomed Rhaenyra, and or that Otto is right to say that he would be a danger to the kingdom. Only things that are essentially false and that any intelligent person will notice.

Either way, you can be sure that if anyone says Rhaenyra shouldn't have been queen, they've missed the whole point of the story that GRRM is telling. It doesn't tell the story of a woman who would have been bad anyway. It tells the story of a woman who could/and would have been a good queen, if they hadn't spent years, since her childhood, harassing her (because misogyny, because she is a woman heir), until literally driving her crazy at the end. A woman, who as queen, could have finally created a precedent for women in power, and thereby helped improve the position of women in Westeros in the lines of succession. This is like, the basis of why Rhaenyra should have been queen !

I really think that the worst thing for me about these people who spout this kind of bullshit is that they think they are so intelligent. No. You're just stupid. And I don't care about the haters who come and tell me otherwise.

[mrsjadecurtiss]

A different ask! What do you think Roose actually feels about Ramsay? Just before the Red Wedding he talks very dismissively about how Ramsay could be executed for his crimes, but obviously he knows Robb's never gonna get the chance so maybe he cares more than that. But Ramsay (probably) killed precious Domeric? What does he actually feel about him and potential Walda baby(-ies)?

Thank you for your question :) I have divided my answer into points regarding the different aspects of your ask.

What do you think Roose actually feels about Ramsay?

In regards to the Roose-Ramsay relationship, some facts are important:

Roose did not raise Ramsay, and as far as we know did not interact with him in his childhood beyond the two times the miller's wife came to him after his birth. ("She was never to tell the boy who had fathered him." - Reek III, aDwD) All he knew about Ramsay was that he was his son, had his grey eyes, and was "wild and unruly" (the reason Ramsay's mom demanded a servant).

"Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the boy, so far as I know," Ser Rodrik said. "I confess, I do not know him." - Bran II, aCoK

Ramsay only came to the Dreadfort in 297AC (after Domeric died). This is extremely recent - for context, we have Dany chapters in aGoT taking place as early as 297AC, and the War of the five Kings starts at the end of 298 AC according to this timeline.

As a consequence, since Roose leaves the Dreadfort for the War of the five Kings, he assumed a paternal role for Ramsay in between 297AC and at most very early 299AC (The timeline has the battle of the green fork in January 6 and he'd need to travel to the south before that in the first place). This is only between 1-2 years depending on how early or late that year Domeric died (Shoutout to @blueagia who made me realize this timeline years ago).

Ramsay is violent and cruel, but not stupid (Roose even says he is “cunning” in Catelyn VI, aSoS). He was able to present himself as an ally to Theon in aCoK, and it stands to reason he might have given a salvagable impression to Roose at the beginning while he was testing the waters. Ned Stark is a just man who tried to execute the remote-living Jorah Mormont for slave trade; Since he never went after Ramsay, we can assume whatever Ramsay did during his time with Roose was discreet enough that word did not get to Lord Eddard, and so at the beginning Roose must have had no reason to complain too much about Ramsay's conduct either.

Eddard Stark had never had any reason to complain of the Lord of the Dreadfort, so far as Jon knew. - Jon VII, aDwD

"No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours." - Reek III, aDwD

Roose gets a legitimization for Ramsay as part of his benefit from doing the Red Wedding, showing that back then he still had an intention of keeping him as his son and heir. However, returning from the war in the south shows Roose how bad Ramsay's political decisions are when left on his own, including:

Leaving Donella Hornwood for dead, horrifically abusing Theon who is a valuable hostage and a potential ally, being unable to keep good optics and alienating his allies ("Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard's sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. [...] How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we'd retain if the truth were known? Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots … " - Reek III, aDwD), abusing his wife "Arya Stark" who is beloved by their Northern allies, and more...

We see in the aDwD Theon chapters that Roose is still giving Ramsay advice and counsel (see again the Reek III quote), however he also appears to be despairing of him:

"I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear." - Reek III, aDwD

We also see in later Theon chapters that he frequently holds meetings without Ramsay:

[Roose:] "The hall is not the place for such discussions, my lords. Let us adjourn to the solar whilst my son consummates his marriage. The rest of you, remain and enjoy the food and drink." - The Prince of Winterfell, aDwD

Lord Bolton was not alone. Lady Dustin sat with him, pale-faced and severe; an iron horsehead brooch clasped Roger Ryswell's cloak; Aenys Frey stood near the fire, pinched cheeks flushed with cold.  - A Ghost in Winterfell, aDwD

[Lady Dustin said] "Roose is not pleased. Tell your bastard that." - The Turncloak, aDwD

Implying he is losing faith in his son, or otherwise does not trust him or value his input when it comes to political situations; a bad omen considering heirs like Robb usually sit with their fathers in councils.

My impression is that Roose initially adopted Ramsay as an heir for the following reasons:

- Sentimentality, since Ramsay is a son of his own blood ("I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes." [...] "Now [Domeric's] bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?" - Reek III aDwD). As a member of a patriarchal society, Roose was raised with the expectation that he will continue his bloodline, and so likely has the wish to be succeeded by his son.

- Practicality, since Ramsay is already an adult, so he doesn't have to raise and invest in another child for years ("That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House." - Reek III, aDwD). [Speculation: For a new son, he would also have to remarry, and both his prior wives are implied to not have liked him ("The two before her never made a sound in bed" - Reek III, aDwD) while he also doesnt speak of them with fondness - so he might also prefer to be single and raise his bastard instead of having to deal with yet another unpassionate/unloving marriage (considering he's middle aged and uncharismatic, a young new wife wouldn't be thrilled about him), until he finds a marriage that provides him a good benefit (like the Frey money + alliance).]

- The belief that, despite Ramsay being raised a peasant and having violent tendencies, it is possible to "educate him" so that he becomes a functioning member of society (see again my point about Roose counseling him). Roose possibly initially projects some of his own personality on Ramsay (Compare this meta i wrote).

During aGoT-aSoS he must have still thought Ramsay viable, which is why he has him legitimized by the crown. He has not known Ramsay closely for long; This explains why he kept him around even though he is so unfit as an heir (it takes time to fully realize that), but also explains why he is so dismissive of him, as that short time of knowing him as an adult would not make him fond of Ramsay the same way one might be fond of a child they raised.

Roose then realizes after the war, as seen in a Dance with Dragons, that Ramsay is not a fitting heir. What this means for the later books is open for now... Will he abandon Ramsay? Use him as a scapegoat? Or still try to salvage him? I personally believe he is starting to see Ramsay as a danger, and is starting to think about how to best get rid of him.

Just before the Red Wedding he talks very dismissively about how Ramsay could be executed for his crimes, but obviously he knows Robb's never gonna get the chance so maybe he cares more than that.

My belief is that Roose is fundamentally selfish and worried about his own skin. While he has the goal to establish Ramsay as a capable heir, he prioritizes his own safety and reputation. By distancing himself from Ramsay's crimes in front of the other Northmen, he can't be blamed for them; by using Ramsay as a scapegoat for Bolton crimes, he himself can wash his hands from the involvement and won't be hurt if any crimes come to light. If he keeps pointing attention at how Ramsay is wild/cruel/treacherous, then the northmen are more likely to suspect/blame Ramsay than the "peaceful" Roose. Also, even if he cared for Ramsay, he would never openly admit it because it's something that could be used against him (same reason as to why he generally keeps his emotions under wraps).

If you compare this scene from aCoK (where Ramsay is believed dead) with the scene you mentioned from aSoS, you can see that to prioritize his own safety and reputation he will sacrifice Ramsay; but he will also defend Ramsay ("Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless.") as long as it serves his interests, of course while still keeping an emotional distance.

One important thing about Roose is that he does not always say the things he actually thinks; When looking at his quotes it is not only important to look at what he says, but which intentions he has with his words and what effect he wants them to have on the person listening. Compare this quote by grrm:

Lord Bolton may well have all sorts of things in mind. Whether or not he would act on any of those thoughts is another matter. Roose is the sort of fellow who keeps his thoughts to himself. - SSM

But Ramsay (probably) killed precious Domeric

"Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison." - Roose in Reek III, aDwD

This is speculative, but I personally believe that case is not as clear-cut as it is made to look. Poisoning Domeric does not necessarily seem like Ramsay's style; i often see people in fandom suspect that his mother is actually the culprit. I personally suspect the first Reek of killing Domeric - we know he once stole perfume, meaning he knows his way around the castle, and he also got looked at by a maester implying he might know the maester’s chamber where poisons could be kept. He has ample reason to hate Roose, who let him live with the pigs and had him whipped and later sent him to live with Ramsay, but also seems to have interest in improving Ramsay's status ("She made him, her and Reek, always whispering in his ear about his rights." - Reek III aDwD). He is also known to be inseperable from Ramsay, so if Ramsay went to meet Domeric, Reek would come with him.

Either way it could be that Roose just didnt initially believe Ramsay killed Domeric since it looked like he died from sickness, and only later changed his mind on this issue - note that Barbrey Dustin, whom he is implied to have regularly spent time with shortly before the quote about Ramsay killing Domeric, seems to be a believer that Ramsay was the murderer, so she might be the one who convinced Roose; And maybe Ramsay's bad conduct during the time of the war aided to make Roose believe her. Changing his mind on this could influence his decision on what to do with Ramsay come the Winds of Winter.

Or alternatively, if we’re keeping closer to the text, he just thought the positives of keeping Ramsay outweigh the negatives of him being a kinslayer; however it seems odd that Roose, who is so worried about his safety, would adopt a man if his first act he knows of was this treacherous and dangerous. Then again he frequently verbally states that he does not see Ramsay as a threat, which can be read in different ways depending on if you take it as a literal statement or as a tool to enact dominance over his dangerous son.

"All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard.” [...]

“I know what he said. You're to spy on me and keep his secrets." Bolton chuckled. "As if he had secrets. Sour Alyn, Luton, Skinner, and the rest, where does he think they came from? Can he truly believe they are his men?"  - Reek III, aDwD

What does he actually feel about him and potential Walda baby(-ies)?

I think he would like to have a son that continues his values and manages to be a capable heir to continue the Bolton line. Domeric was the ideal son, talented and competent, and Roose invested a lot of time and money in giving him a great education. Now that Domeric died and all of this is down the drain, and Roose himself isn't getting any younger, he wants to have a new heir in a way that's the most convenient for him. It appears to me like he is currently weighing the positives of each option (Ramsay or new Baby), and it might even be that he has already come to a decision, considering how he is starting to grow frustrated with Ramsay.

"I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. [...] Ramsay will kill [all the sons she bears me], of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House." - Reek III, aDwD

In line with my earlier point about Roose’ words also being about the effect and not just the message, I believe the line about him being ok with Ramsay killing his sons might be very calculated towards the fact that Roose knows Theon is to report everything he hears back to Ramsay. If Ramsay hears this, he is placated, because it confirms that he is still the main Bolton heir - which means that he does not have to think about harming Lady Walda (because the sons are no threat to his position), and he does not have to think about harming Roose (because he just has to wait until he can succeed him).

Of course all of this post is based off the first five books, so the interpretation may change once the next book comes out or through a different reading of the lines.

[fedonciadale]

So I was on a fan discord about got and apparently Dorito is the only asoiaf character that cares about common people and did everything within her power to protect her people. (?)

She wasn't going to buy an Slave army at all (?) But somehow she went to the unsullied and realised the injustice they were facing and chose to save them😃

Also she didn't screw up in Meereen their economy was depended on slavary and was going to crash and burn anyways so people starving and being forced to unpaid labor was inevitable. Fixing economy is hard for 15 y/o duh.

Not to mention Dorito cares so much about the small folk that she started tending the sick and looking after her people (personally ofc she has healing skills uwu😄) until she got sick and couldn't do it anymore( when exactly?)

But Salsa is going to starve her people, the north is without any resources and she doesn't care about it trading doesn't exist no resource= no trade !!

Oh did I mention Salsa is racist? Unlike Dorito who made the dothraki members of her court in meereen.

And saying otherwise makes you a racist who doesn't know anything about economy and politics☻

And yeah most of these brain damaged people were girls around 20🙂)

Hi there!

Nothing there is really surprising. That has been their argument from the very beginning.

Nothing puzzles me more than their claim that is is racist to have misgivings about the white woman with blonde hair that has a bunch of darker skinned servants with little to no personality which she bought and who prop her up.

I would actually advice you to avoid pro Dany places like the plague. By now it should be clear that they are never going to accept that Dany was meant to break bad from the beginning and if GRRM ever finishes the books they will claim he was bought by D&D (or possibly Jonsa fans. You can never tell what these dirty Jonsas plan).

So, try to not get riled up by it. I’ve had my share of discussions with them and they just don’t listen. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Thanks for the ask!

[waitingforwinterwinds]

Game of Thrones - 54 DAENERYS VI (pages 563-574)

Dany and friends visit the market for a fun day out while her husband is hunting, and meet a wine seller who causes a significant change in Drogo's plans.

-

"The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs." Dany propped herself up on her elbow to look up at him (...) "It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth," she said. "The earth ends at the black salt sea," Drogo answered at once. ... "You must talk to my lord husband," Dany said. "Drogo says the stallion who mounts the world will have all the lands of the earth to rule, and no need to cross the poison water. He talks of leading his khalasar east after Rhaego is born, to plunder the lands around the Jade Sea."

Oh now that's interesting. Up until now, Dany's interest in Westeros has been tangential at best, it's just some place that she's heard about that her brother feels felt belonged to him. Dany has had repeated moments of "if I can have this life I have now, or a simpler one, forever, I would be happy." But now that Viserys is dead, she's campaigning for her son to get the Iron Throne.

The riders let them come and go from unmolested, so long as they observed the peace of the sacred city, did not profane the Mother of Mountains or the Womb of the World, and honored the crones of the dosh khaleen with the traditional gifts of salt, silver, and seed. The Dothraki did not truly comprehend this business of buying and selling things. ... She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki.

The salt and seed make complete sense, salt is the og preservative, nutritionally important and has a variety of practical uses including making food taste good, seeds can be used as food, fodder or growing crops. Silver makes sense in the more abstract, I would love to know if there's a specific reason for silver over other metals.

But you know what's never made sense to me? The idea that the Dothraki have zero concept of buy and sell. Like, they receive a gift and they give a gift in return, that's literally trade, buy and sell is just trade where we use something that has little other use (ie gold and silver) and agree each thing is tradable for a set amount of that. But she says 'did not truly comprehend' so they do kind of get it, possibly they just think it's dumb. But the way it gets brought up sometimes I have to wonder is GRRM implying that the Dothraki aren't smart enough to understand the set price trade system, or that the entire culture is composed of asshats who'd steal from a tip jar (or worse leave a fake bill that quotes scripture on one side. Like "My 65 page, fully coloured comic book that took a year to make, pay what you think it's worth." *Puts a single dollar in the jar* kind of people.) Obviously in Dothraki gift swapping, Merchants are making losses, but I suppose as long as the losses aren't life or limbs? (D&D and the show continues to be bad at translating things = 🥛)

- and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, -

Okay for a second there I was imagining those stretcher earrings but with a giant slab of ruby in the hole and set in the cheek, but it's probably more like those cute little dimple piercings... right?

Dany felt disappointed, but Quaro liked his sausage so well he decided to have another one, and Rakharo had to outdo him and eat three more, belching loudly. Dany giggled. "You have not laughed since your brother the Kahl Raggat was crowned by Drogo," said Irri. "It is good to see you laugh, Khaleesi."

oh no 🚩 Be honest, how many of this group are going to die? NO, WAIT! Don't tell me. Let it blind side me, otherwise I'll be sad ahead of time. This is such a cute scene though. This, I want this for her so bad, low stakes and cute friend dates. (We'll ignore everyone on this outing who's not Dany either works for her, her husband or is a slave. They can be her friends too. Multitasking.)

Dany stumbled and lost her feet. "No," she screamed, thrusting her hands out to break her fall... and Doreah caught her by the arm and wrenched her backward, so she landed on her legs and not her belly.

Doreah MVP!!!!!!

"This poisoner was the first," Ser Jorah Mormont warned him, "but he will not be the last. Men will risk much for a lordship."

Well he would have been if Bobby B hadn't once again decided to severely inconvenience everyone around him!

"And to Rhaego son of Drogo, the stallion who will mount the world, to him I also pledge a gift. To him I will give this iron chair his mother's father sat in. I will give him the Seven Kingdoms. I, Drogo, will do this thing."

Psh, yeah, now that it's about a personal insult to you, but not when your wife was asking for it.

"- I will kill the men in the iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will rape their women, take their children as slaves, and bring their broken gods back to Vaes Dothrak to bow down beneath the Mother of Mountains. -"

Classy. Die in a hole.

Sorry, the Drogo hate is back in full swing, like dude, just admit you weren't doing this because it's what Dany wanted, you didn't care about the Seven Kingdoms until they came after your property wife. Call her Moon of my Life all you want, but we all know this was about affection for her, it was about wounded ego for you. Creep.