#tyndareus

[katerinaaqu]

Okay an Agamemnon-friendly post so you are warned! The post is inspired by another made by @hermesmoly

As you know the sources that absolutely HATE Agamemnon speak among others on traditions rescued or invented by post-homeric sources that Agamemnon killed the husband and children of Clytemnestra to have her as a wife. Some of it I memorize it to my mini-analysis here:

And of course Tyndareus would have absolutely no clue who killed them lol 😂 like "oh what do you know! They are dead. Hey you! You are tall and handsome have my daughter for wife!" And then Menelaus with Tyndareus and the Spartan army helps Agamemnon to take Mycenae back from Aegisthus.

Wait, Aegisthus who? Yup we know Aegisthus who was their cousin and was the reason they got exiled in the first place. His coup was reversed and then Agamemnon established himself back to authority and dedicated himself to expanding Mycenaean influence and area till he made it the most powerful kingdom in Greece. But Aegisthus came back; years later he became Clytemnestra's lover and the two of them conspired the murder of Agamemnon and after they succeeded they ruled for years till Orestes took his revenge.

Aegisthus is my proof not to support the idea that Agamemnon slaughtered Clytemnestra's family to get to marry her. Even if one can say he was desperate to get back to power, even if someone says he lost it for some reason and wanted to get revenge quickly, even if we say that no one ever knew (and in Eurypedes it is not even the case! Apparently every interested party knew haha) I don't think it is plausible to say he conspired for the murder of the family of Clytemnestra. He did many things and as I mention to the analysis he doesn't seem meant to be a pleasant character but no I am not convinced it is plausible he conspired or executed the murder of Clytemnestra's family.

The dude didn't even plan the assassination of Aegisthus who was the reason to exile him!

Food for thought

[littlesparklight]

I got curious about how Menelaos gets chosen in various sources and made a little list*: -In the Catalogue of Women, Tyndareos chooses/Menelaos wins because he offers the most bride gifts. [The oath is Tyndareos' idea, as far as we can tell.] -In Stesichorus' Helen (so, the probable first version of his that treated Helen and the Trojan war, not either of his Palinodes), Tyndareos chooses after exacting the oath to keep order and the suitors from fighting each other. [No way to tell if Tyndareos came up with the oath himself or was given the idea, by Odysseus or anyone else.] -In Euripides' Iphigenia in Aulis, Tyndareos allows Helen to choose after exacting the oath as the suitors have begun threatening each other. [Tyndareos comes up with the idea of the oath himself.] -In the Bibliotheke, Tyndareos chooses. [Odysseus is the brain behind the oath.] -In Hyginus' Fabulae (#78), Helen gets to choose because Tyndareos is afraid of the discord that might arise and that Agamemnon might divorce Klytaimnestra. [Odysseus is again the brain behind the oath.] *Based on checking those sources I knew mentioned it plus Gantz's Early Greek Myth, since he's thorough in mentioning if later sources talk about something even if the focus is on earlier ones.

So what we've got is that most of the time in these sources, Tyndareos is the one to choose. In the Catalogue of Women the man chosen is also the one that, on the crassest level, is the most "worthy" by having given most for the woman. (Though it's also the source that notes if Achilles had been old enough, he would have won Helen.) Of course, if there are lost sources that touched on the suitors and Helen's marriage to Menelaos, we won't know that, or what they said about it, but this is what we've got to work with, I'm rather sure.

Tyndareos choosing is of course the most "neutral"/normative option, as that would be the regular course of things. Tyndareos being the one to choose also doesn't appear to have any correlation (as far as we can tell, anyway) whether Helen left or was kidnapped. As in, there's no correlation to whether Helen is portrayed as "guilty" or not when her father has chosen her husband.

Helen choosing comes into play for the first time in Iphigenia in Aulis, and the context of it paints a rather specific picture, I'd say.

"[...] old Tyndareus with no small cleverness had beguiled them by his shrewd device, he allowed his daughter to choose from among her suitors the one towards whom the sweet breezes of Aphrodite might carry her."

"[...] carried Helen off, in mutual desire, to his steading on Ida."

First of all, of course one could probably say much since this is all part of a speech of Agamemnon's. But, if we're allowing what's being said to stand on its own (and if there is an agenda, which undoubtedly there is, it might be Agamemnon's just as much as about how the play, meta-wise, is choosing to represent this), something becomes very clear. Tyndareos is put forth as basically tricking the suitors, and so it puts blame on him. Helen, in being allowed to choose, is made culpable since she then still desired someone not her husband and because of that desire let herself be carried off. The chorus a little later after this both uses "carried off" as well as "fled her home to marry a foreigner". It's thus not just Agamemnon who is framing it both in terms of "kidnapping" and Helen leaving because she desires Paris.

In Hyginus we have no moral flavouring of the same kind as above, since the Fabulae are so very pared down in their language. At most it's a far more neutral casting of Helen being allowed to choose than how Iphigenia in Aulis has it. (But it's probable Hyginus got "Helen got to choose" from that play, much like Euripides and Sophocles' Alexander plays are probable sources for his own account of how Paris comes back to Troy.)

The wider context in which Helen getting to choose her own husband and how it's being portrayed is actually rather important, then, being used as it is in conjunction with Helen being portrayed as desiring Paris. And I think it's kind of interesting how Tyndareos is apparently at first perfectly capable of coming up with the idea of the oath himself, but as soon as Odysseus in later sources worms his way into the narrative, him having come up with it is the version that dominates (especially in later awareness of the story)!

[incorrecthomer]

Tyndareus: Leda and me are going to have another two child Agamemnon & Menelaus: That's gre- Tyndareus, slamming adoption papers on the table: It's you, sign here.

[red-moon-at-night]

You know all of those greek vase paintings that have a bunch of Helen's family (usually Leda, Tyndareus and the Dioscuri but occasionally Clytemnestra too) gathered around an unhatched or newly hatched Helen-egg on an altar?

If we follow along with the fact that this pottery almost always depicts the Dioscuri grown up, and Leda in myth has the Dioscuri, Clytemnestra and Helen at the same time, AND assume they all had separate eggs (or at least Helen had a separate egg). You could headcanon that Helen simply took a very, very long time to hatch.

Therefore, I think it's also fun to headcanon that members of her family visit this egg often prior to hatching. All at different intervals and frequencies, but maybe together too, on occasions where they don't want to leave their unhatched family member out.

Castor and Polydeuces visit frequently, eagerly telling the egg about all of their exploits and adventures, often as soon as they have happened. Both brothers bicker about the little details and try to one-up each other during the storytelling. Wishing that if the egg had hatched already, their sibling could've just joined them and been there to see it. They might occasionally entertain the possibility that they are not twins but in fact triplets because of this egg. They definitely talk as if the egg can hear them, too.

Leda also talks to the egg — it comes naturally to her. Zero hesitation, just full of love and warmth. Tyndareus tries to follow suit, but much like how some people are better at talking to their plants than others to help them grow, he is not very good at it. He's got the right spirit but is incredibly awkward and stilted in conversation. Not really talking to the egg so much as talking at it.

Clytemnestra talks at the egg too, out loud when she's with others, probably starting hopeful as a child and becoming more and more of a sceptic as she gets older. However, when she visits on her own she talks to the egg — in her head. All of the optimism still lingering in there, so much insatiable curiosity and so many unanswered questions. If the Dioscuri have each other, then surely she is missing someone, right? Or is it naive to assume such logic?

They all act differently around this egg, but collectively? They never let it get lonely for too long. (Okay: sappy headcanon over.)

[kingbryancroidragon]

He's fifteen! I don't care if he knows more about sailing than the rest of you, that's just a bad idea!

[deathlessathanasia]

Helen’s Other Sisters – SENTENTIAE ANTIQUAE

[adriles]

my father has taken in the atreides brothers following their exile from mycenae, and is now going to reestablish their right to rule over Thyestes’ claim, because he loves to bear witness to god crime drama

[koruga]

I don't love this batch, but that's partially because older people are harder for me to draw. Fun stuff, given that my next assigned character is Nestor!

[algorithmik]

[katerinaaqu]

Odysseus Everywhere! (literally! XD) - A small humorous analysis on how Odysseus basically is the protagonist of the entire Epic Cycle

Don't you love it how Odysseus basically lifts on his shoulders the entire Epic Cycle? And I am not even exaggerating! XD

He is the one who came up with the Oath of Tyndareus (literally gave the tools for the start of war without wanting to.

He was responsible to fetch Achilles from Skyros and the one to uncover his disguise.

By etruscan accounts he was the one to lead Iphigenia to the altar for the sacrifice

By some accounts he was the first to lay foot at the beach of Troy (basically again starting the war XD) and dodged the prophecy that the first who lay foot to Troy would die first by throwing his shield on the beach and step on it so Protesilaus (former Iolaus) thought he would die and jumped second, thus becoming the first to actually lay foot on Trojan ground!

He is the one to accompany Menelaus during the negotiations with the elders of Troy trying to get Helen back without war.

He is the one to lead Chriseis back to her father and perform a sacrifice to appease Apollo with him.

He tries to keep the Achaeans in line (well...he also beats up Thersites that no one likes!)

He is part of the embassy that goes to Achilles to beg him to come back and try to negotiate with him

He is present to most battles during the Iliad actively taking part on the field

He and Diomedes are sent as spies to the Trojan side in the night

He is one of the volunteers that are to be chosen to fight Hector

He is the one to take Achilles to Lemnos and Cleanse him for the murder of Thersites when the latter makes fun of Achilles's mourning over dead Penthiselia, noting his crush on her.

On later, post-homeric and roman accounts he is the one to come and go with Philoctetes

He is the one along with Aias to retrieve and protect the body of Achilles

He wins the armor of Achilles and by some greek play writers negotiates the burial of Aias after his suicide.

He and Diomedes bring Philoctetes from Lemnos

He captures Helenus and abstracts the prophecies from them

He brings Neoptolemous from Skyros and gives him his father's armor

He and Diomedes infiltrate the city dressed as beggars and steal the Palladum of Athena

He comes up with the Trojan Horse and with the help of Athena's Epeius makes it

He is of course one of the first choices to be inside the horse

He stops the greeks from blowing their cover by holding their mouths.

He is the first to step out of the horse and scan the perimeter

He is either present or personally responsible for the death of Astyanax/Scamandrius depending on the source

He is the one to bring Polyxena to the tomb of Achilles to be offered to him as his concubine after death

He is the protagonist of the longest and only surviving of the Nostoi, the Odyssey in which he is the sole survivor after a huge arduous trip which includes the blinding of a cyclops, the meeting and facing of two goddesses, a trip to the underworld and many more including being one of the few male SA victims so clearly depicted in ancient literature

Odysseus being one of the few mortals (and probably the only one who is not a demigod directly) to get to hedes while being alive

He kills the suitors that threatened his wife and son with the help of his son and a few loyal servants.

He once more travels according to the prophecy to the mainland Greece to appease Poseidon and creates a temple in his honor.

Like without the slightest trace of exaggeration, Odysseus carries on his back the entire Epic Cycle! He is both the creator of the war indirectly plus the first one to lay foot in the land of Troy, the first to lay foot inside Troy itself not once but TWICE during the raging war and he is the last of the kings to arrive home! Without an exaggeration he starts and finishes the epic cycle if combined with all the sources from around the myths! He is also the character mostly involved in the things no one else would dare to!

He dares to be the first to lay foot on Troy

He is the one usually sent to do what others don't want to such as leading people to sacrifices or the opposite, purifying people (because no one gets their hands fucking dirty but poor Odysseus! Hahaha!)

He personally excecutes his own plans

He is the one to dare and come out first of the horse and the one to hold the others

He is the one sent to be a diplomat

etc.

Dunno about you guys but I think the true length of his contributions and involvement to the events is not talked nearly enough!

[littlesparklight]

claps hands

I think today we should celebrate egg!Helen and her family :) I'll start:

[0ghostwatcher]

Imagine Clytemnestra discovering her father,the man who give her life,sold her to the man who killed her husband and son

Imagine Odysseus putting is pride finally aside and pray 7 years his friend-his goddess to save him and receive no answer

[incorrecthomer]

Random one: How many children do you have? Tyndareus: Biologically, legally or emotionally?These are three different quantities

[red-moon-at-night]

Etruscan mirrors are so bloody interesting like... What do you mean Hermes carried the egg with Helen in it from the underworld to Castor/Pollux/Leda/Tyndareus/all of them??

What do you mean sometimes they're pointing down to the ground and sometimes the ground is actually depicted as the ocean??? You're saying that the egg was LAID in the underworld and not up here???? The implication being yet again that Nemesis is the mother in these scenarios.

Carpino, Alexandra (1996) "The Delivery of Helen's Egg: An Examination of an Etruscan Relief Mirror," Etruscan Studies: Vol. 3 , Article 2.

Literally knowing of death before her life has begun.

[kingbryancroidragon]

Favourite Performances from the 2003 Miniseries "Helen of Troy"

Rufus Sewell as Agamemnon, although he is villainized beyond belief, he still feels like a real person to me, not like a cardboard demon.

Daniel Lapaine as Hector, literally the only Hector besides John Shrapnel I did not find average at best. I found Harry Andrews average at best, I found Jacques Bergerac average at best, I found Eric Bana average at best, like their performances could have been done by literally anyone else and it would come out the same, something you don't get from Daniel Lapaine and John Shrapnel, they are fantastic performances only they could give.

John Rhys-Davies as Priam, the performances given by the actors playing Priam are typically fantastic and John is no exception.

Stellan Skarsgard as Theseus, there have been many great portrayals of Theseus and sure, this is a kinder portrayal than he would have been in that stage of life, but it feels like this is actually Theseus come to life.

Emilia Fox as Cassandra, she does a really good job and it must be in the blood since her father Edward Fox is also a fantastic actor.

Richard Durden as Tyndareus, literally the only screen portrayal of Tyndareus I've ever seen, so it isn't like there is much to choose from, but even then he does a great job with what screen time he has.

Jim Carter as Pirithous, I've always loved his work, he's in one of my favourite movies and he gives a great performance with what little screen time he has.

Overall, it is strange. I always take the Achaean side, but here I find myself taking the Trojan side, probably because out of individuals on the Trojan side, more of the best performances in the miniseries come from those on the Trojan side rather than on the Achaean side, out of my favourite performances, Agamemnon is the only Achaean who was involved in the war.

[gingermintpepper]

In light of my recent Asclepius and Apollo musings, I feel like it's the perfect time to post this, actually.

How do you build a human being? 

Bold question. Foolish question. But a question it is all the same. 

The memory of his father’s consternated expression is still bright behind his eyes, that unusually furrowed brow, the tension in his gentle jaw. He didn’t falter in his setting of Asclepius’ broken shin, hands perpetually steady and sure, but he hesitated for a conspicuously long moment as though reluctant to give an answer. In this body, he resembled Orpheus something fierce. The same flaxen curls of his hair, the same delicate eyelashes that stand stark against the dark brown of his skin. Often Asclepius wondered if his elder brother was nothing but a body built to suit their father’s preferences. The subtle wrinkle of skin around their eyes when they smiled was the same, and the steadiness of their hands, the soothing power of their presence. 

And Orpheus did not bleed like Asclepius did. The blood in Asclepius’ veins were as red as any human’s, any mortal’s, but Orpheus seemed not to bleed at all. Even when he’d suffered the same fall down the crumbling cliff as Asclepius had. Even when his skirts had ripped and jagged stone sliced into his shanks. 

Even so, Orpheus was unmistakably alive. His eyes were rich with grief fresher than any blood spilt from the worst of Asclepius’ wounds, his counsel too, was tempered with the wisdom of a life well lived. So even at the apex of his most perfect, inhuman beauty, Asclepius never once doubted that his brother was a human being. Just that he was more divine construct than flesh and blood. Just that their father had built for himself a son that would not break as easily as all the others. 

His father stayed silent for so long that Asclepius assumed it would be one of the million questions that would go unanswered. Then, just when the last of his bandages had been wrapped - 

“A human body is easy to build,” he’d had that faraway look on his face as he spoke, like he was speaking to the horizon. Or a version of Asclepius that was not quite here. Such things happened from time to time. “Any flesh would do. From men, or animals, or even monsters. Any flesh would do.” Their gazes had locked then, and Asclepius would never forget the flecks of gold which swirled in his father’s blue eyes, the weight of divine words rattling at the boundaries of their mortal apparatus, “But the breath of life, a living soul? That is beyond your means as a mortal man. You ought never seek it.” 

(Asclepius would remember these words when he revives a man for the first time at the age of nineteen. He’s surprised to find that his father is wrong for once. Souls are easy to source when they’re already eager to return to their mound of flesh.)