#tyndareos

[deathlessathanasia]

Helen’s Other Sisters – SENTENTIAE ANTIQUAE

[red-moon-at-night]

Etruscan or Faliscan Red Figure Stamnos, attributed to the Painter of the Oxford Ganymede, Classical Period, 400–350 B.C.

Descriptions below taken from MFA Boston:

Side A: Polydeukes is binding Amykos to a tree trunk in front of a fountain, which consists of a stream flowing from the center of a flower into a tub. A plant, a folded cloak, and an alabastron are represented on the ground below. Polydeukes braces himself with one knee against the tree to draw tight the bindings, which themselves consist of young saplings. Like Amykos, he is infibulated and wears leather boxing thongs.

Amykos, king of the savage Bebrykes of Bithynia compelled all strangers to box with him, otherwise denying them drink from the spring. Polydeukes, a skilled boxer, overcame him and punished his hubris by binding him. Except for the fountain, the composition of side A is very close to that on the bronze Ficoroni Cista in the Villa Giulia; the postures of the figures are nearly identical, and the cloak and alabastron are present at the base of the tree.

Side B: Hermes, Polydeukes, and a satyr old and fat enough to be called Silenos are shown in a scene possibly inspired by a satyr play. Hermes stands at the left, his right leg propped on the tendril of an adjacent palmette. He wears high-laced sandals and a winged helmet and carries his caduceus in his left hand. He looks back to the right at Polydeukes, who stands looking at the egg in his left hand that contains his sister Helen. In his other hand is a mattock, with which he will crack open the egg. Approaching from the right is Silenos, wearing shoes and carrying a situla in his right hand and a phiale in his left.

The subject of side B may be unique. Beazley listed two vases and eight mirrors representing either Hermes or Polydeukes delivering the egg of Helen to Leda or Tyndareos or both (EVP, pp. 115-116). Both the god and the hero are present on this vase, but Silenos is a poor substitute for either of the two recipients. Beazley suggested that Polydeukes has just discovered the egg while loosening the soil in the palestra with his mattock, a preparation for exercising on the hard ground (EVP, p. 60). The egg had been hidden there by Hermes, which explains his presence. Silenos comes up with a bucket of water to wash the egg (or perhaps hoping to boil it!). The presence of Silenos suggests the influence of satyric drama; compare the phlyax actor on an Apulian bell-krater, who cracks open Helen's egg with an axe (Bari 3899: RVAp. I, p. 148, no. 96; LIMC, IV, pl. 291,Helene 5) According to Horace, Polydeukes and his brother Kastor were also born from an egg (Sat,2,1,26). Evidence that this story was known early enough to be parodied by an Apulian vase-painter of the mid-fourth century may be provided by an unpublished Gnathian bell-krater recently in the New York art market, with an actor in female guise watching an egg on an altar give birth to an erect phallus.

[littlesparklight]

I got curious about how Menelaos gets chosen in various sources and made a little list*: -In the Catalogue of Women, Tyndareos chooses/Menelaos wins because he offers the most bride gifts. [The oath is Tyndareos' idea, as far as we can tell.] -In Stesichorus' Helen (so, the probable first version of his that treated Helen and the Trojan war, not either of his Palinodes), Tyndareos chooses after exacting the oath to keep order and the suitors from fighting each other. [No way to tell if Tyndareos came up with the oath himself or was given the idea, by Odysseus or anyone else.] -In Euripides' Iphigenia in Aulis, Tyndareos allows Helen to choose after exacting the oath as the suitors have begun threatening each other. [Tyndareos comes up with the idea of the oath himself.] -In the Bibliotheke, Tyndareos chooses. [Odysseus is the brain behind the oath.] -In Hyginus' Fabulae (#78), Helen gets to choose because Tyndareos is afraid of the discord that might arise and that Agamemnon might divorce Klytaimnestra. [Odysseus is again the brain behind the oath.] *Based on checking those sources I knew mentioned it plus Gantz's Early Greek Myth, since he's thorough in mentioning if later sources talk about something even if the focus is on earlier ones.

So what we've got is that most of the time in these sources, Tyndareos is the one to choose. In the Catalogue of Women the man chosen is also the one that, on the crassest level, is the most "worthy" by having given most for the woman. (Though it's also the source that notes if Achilles had been old enough, he would have won Helen.) Of course, if there are lost sources that touched on the suitors and Helen's marriage to Menelaos, we won't know that, or what they said about it, but this is what we've got to work with, I'm rather sure.

Tyndareos choosing is of course the most "neutral"/normative option, as that would be the regular course of things. Tyndareos being the one to choose also doesn't appear to have any correlation (as far as we can tell, anyway) whether Helen left or was kidnapped. As in, there's no correlation to whether Helen is portrayed as "guilty" or not when her father has chosen her husband.

Helen choosing comes into play for the first time in Iphigenia in Aulis, and the context of it paints a rather specific picture, I'd say.

"[...] old Tyndareus with no small cleverness had beguiled them by his shrewd device, he allowed his daughter to choose from among her suitors the one towards whom the sweet breezes of Aphrodite might carry her."

"[...] carried Helen off, in mutual desire, to his steading on Ida."

First of all, of course one could probably say much since this is all part of a speech of Agamemnon's. But, if we're allowing what's being said to stand on its own (and if there is an agenda, which undoubtedly there is, it might be Agamemnon's just as much as about how the play, meta-wise, is choosing to represent this), something becomes very clear. Tyndareos is put forth as basically tricking the suitors, and so it puts blame on him. Helen, in being allowed to choose, is made culpable since she then still desired someone not her husband and because of that desire let herself be carried off. The chorus a little later after this both uses "carried off" as well as "fled her home to marry a foreigner". It's thus not just Agamemnon who is framing it both in terms of "kidnapping" and Helen leaving because she desires Paris.

In Hyginus we have no moral flavouring of the same kind as above, since the Fabulae are so very pared down in their language. At most it's a far more neutral casting of Helen being allowed to choose than how Iphigenia in Aulis has it. (But it's probable Hyginus got "Helen got to choose" from that play, much like Euripides and Sophocles' Alexander plays are probable sources for his own account of how Paris comes back to Troy.)

The wider context in which Helen getting to choose her own husband and how it's being portrayed is actually rather important, then, being used as it is in conjunction with Helen being portrayed as desiring Paris. And I think it's kind of interesting how Tyndareos is apparently at first perfectly capable of coming up with the idea of the oath himself, but as soon as Odysseus in later sources worms his way into the narrative, him having come up with it is the version that dominates (especially in later awareness of the story)!

[arkeolog]

antik yunan ve roma kültürlerinin gelişmesi ile cinselliğin bir tabu olmaması birbirinden bağımsız değil. mitoslarda çoğu olay absürttür, cinsellik içerebilir ve bu durum paganlar tarafından yadırganmaz. ne zaman ki hristiyanlık yayılır işler değişir. isa bile bakire bir anneden doğar... cinselliğin tabu olduğu toplumlarda, ideolojilerde ve dinlerde her zaman bir sıkıntı vardır...

görsel yakın zamanda pompeii'de keşfedilen fresklerden. pompeii, ms 79'de vezüv'ün patlamasıyla volkanik küller altında kalmıştı. yoğun bir şehvet duygusu içeren görselde leda ve kuğu tasvir edilmiş. zeus (jüpiter) sparta kralı tyndareos'un eşi leda ile birlikte olabilmek için kuğuya dönüşür. leda aynı gece tyndareos ile de birlikte olur. sonrasında leda iki yumurta bırakır; bir yumurtadan babaları zeus olan helen ve pollux, diğerinden babaları tyndareos olan castor ile clytemnestra doğar... pollux ve castor mitolojide dioskurlar olarak bilinir. helen ise ileride troia savaşına neden olacak dünyanın en güzel kızıdır...

[readysetimready]

Pindar, Nemean Ode 1. 61 ff :

"[After the infant Herakles strangled the serpents, his stepfather Tyndareos (Tyndareus summoned the seer Teiresias (TIresias) who prophesied the child's future :) Teiresias who then declared to him [Tyndareos] and all the gathered host, what chance of fortunes Herakles should encounter; of monsters merciless how many on the dry land, how many of the sea he should destroy; and of mankind, whom bent upon the path of pride and treachery he should consign to an accursed death. This too he told : ... He [Herakles] in peace for all time shall enjoy, in the home of the blessed, leisure unbroken, a recompense most choice for his great deeds of toil; and winning the lovely Hebe for his bride, and sharing his marriage feast beside Zeus, son of Kronos (Cronus), shall live to grace his august law."

Philostratus the Elder, Imagines 2. 20 (trans. Fairbanks) (Greek rhetorician C3rd A.D.) :

"Before long you [Herakles] will live with them in the sky, drinking, and embracing the beautiful Hebe (Youth); for you are to marry the youngest of the gods and the one most revered by them,since it is through her that they also are young."

Propertius, Elegies 1. 13 (trans. Goold) (Roman elegy C1st B.C.) :

"The passion of Hercules [Herakles], all afire for divine Hebe, tasted its first raptures after he had burned on an Oetean pyre."

[digitsland]

Epic Fantasy Tier List - Best heroes to collect and use

Enter and Win Robux Coins 1 S Tier Lucas The opportunity Libra Thick Hera gland Gwen grace Returns Amon Tyrant Adrian Circe Tyndareos George Kalman Second Clair The heroes in this tier are some of the strongest selections you can choose from the entire list. They have the highest base stats, their playstyle is quite versatile, and they have the best abilities in the game by far and away…

[pallasandthepeople]

I think not being unfaithful was a much bigger scheme for Penelope than just that. A few years after the war she must have known chances were he was not coming back. But her father in law was half-mad, her mother in law dead, so she pretty much was the ruler of the island for the longest time. Remarrying would mean a) giving up that power and b) endangering her son, because a second husband would want the throne for himself and his own offspring. By pretending she was waiting for her husband, she ensured safety AND a good reputation for herself.

Part of why this is my head canon is that Odysseus went through quite a bit of trouble to marry her. He could have asked Tyndareos for money in exchange for the suitors plan, but he didnt: he asked to be allowed to bring this Spartan princess to his goat island. He cared for her. And Odysseus was a lot of things and certainly not a good man, but i will not believe that the demure ideal of a chaste woman that Penelope became known as was what peaked his interest. He may not have reacted well to her actually being unfaithful, but I like to believe he wouldn't have minded that much. Like you say, they're so in sync!

I think she was a woman very aware of the game she was playing, and she knew how to bend the rules in her favor.

odysseus absolutely does present a threat to penelope if he perceives her as at all unfaithful, and i feel the unfairness of this, and i think people tend to undersell how much tension at least potentially exists between odysseus and penelope. but i'm also like. his reaction, all speculation aside, his actual reaction in the odyssey to her flirting with the suitors is delight, because he immediately ascertains that she is running a con. sorry that they're so in-sync in spite of the forces that try to drive a wedge between them, including their own misgiving hearts. sorry that they invented homophrosyne ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[trojan-war-iliad-greek-mythology]

Well here’s another thought…

It’s that not Helen ‘started’ the Trojan War, but Penelope (eventually odysseus’ wife) did. Tyndareos (helens father) asked Odysseus for a solution on what to do with all the suitors that were located at his palace and he was afraid that they were gonna fight each other and him, if they were not to be chosen to be Helens husband. Odysseus came up with a plan, but on one condition, he saw Penelope, who was Helens cousin, and fell in love with her. He would come up with a solution if he could marry Penelope. Tyndareos agreed and Odysseus came up with the idea of all the suitors signing a pact. This pact meant that they couldn’t fight each other and protect the one who would marry Helen. Well the rest is history I think. Because of this pact, all the kingdoms of the suitors were obliged to fight in the Trojan War and the Trojan War became of a magnitude that would have never occurred without this pact… In a nutshell; Odysseus fell in love with Penelope and that is why the Trojan War went how it went :))

[trvgcdiv]

* klytaimestra: the killer queen.

basic ass profile series.

portrayal notes.

Klytaimestra of Mykenai, portrayal largely based on the Oresteia.

Pulls from myth canon and blog headcanon; Greek myth based & Mexican culture influenced.

Portrayal is both gender-fucky and queer as hell.

Interested in exploring gender, queerness, and powerful, toxic “womanhood”

Secondary, Epic Cycle. Verses include (but not limited to) myth canon, myth AU, and modern.

basics.

Klytaimestra of Mykenai —Klyte, Klytie Princess of Sparta, Queen of Mykenai/Argos — Avatar of Nemesis Spartan / Laconian / Aegan —of mixed white, Indigeous, and afro-Mexican heritage in non myth verses Epic Cycle

appearance.

Takes after her mother in the shape of her nose and mouth, but otherwise has her father’s hair (long with tight curls) and coloring (light-medium brown skin, dark browns for hair and hazel eyes).

Something about the shape of her brow resembles the idol of Ares in Sparta, but surely that’s a coincidence?

As tall as Helen, but sometimes seems taller. Built sturdily: wide shoulders, thick arms/legs. Subtle inverted triangle.

modern verses: lighter skin, but otherwise looks largely the same.

relationships.

Divine Heritage: Hera, Zeus, Ares Notable Ancestors: Perses, Gorgophone, Amyclas, Sparta, Lacedaemon Parents: Tyndareos & Leda Siblings: Timandra, Philonoe, Phoebe, Castor, Pollux, and Helen. Spouses: Agamemnon, Aigisthos Children: Iphigenia (adopted); (by Agamemnon) Elektra, Chrysothemis, and Orestes; (by Aigisthos) Aletes, Erigone, and Helen. Connections: Artemis, Hera, Helen, Menelaos, Kassandra, Apollo/n, etc. etc. etc.

personality.

Klytaimestra is scary smart, as well as a persuasive and skilled orator.

Holds grudges and is extremely patient about enacting vengeance.

Fiercely protective over those she considers “her own”, which doesn’t include her parents, but does include Helen and Penelope.

Tolerates neither disrespect nor sass nor anything but absolute and complete obedience to her will (unless a member of the Spartan Girl Gang)

need to know.

TBD.

[sophia-pa]

sexualized violence

“There is a deep tradition according to which painting and literature are comparable – that of ut pictura poesis. […] There are surely analogies between painting and poetry, between painting and history, and these analogies, which are suggestive, have dominated the writing about visual art for centuries. But given these analogies, there are essential differences between painting and poetry, between painting and story or history. These differences are, I believe, too easily taken for granted; they must be addressed.” (Paul Barolsky: Ovid and the Metamorphoses of Modern Art from Botticelli to Picasso, London 2014.)

Gewalt, Raub und Vergewaltigung. All dies thematisieren die Erzählungen der römischen und griechischen Mythologie - und all dies fehlt in unzähligen  Darstellungen einzelner Mythen in der Malerei der Renaissance und des Barocks. Weder Gewalt noch Angst sind zu verspüren, stattdessen erwecken die Szenen einen erotisierten Eindruck. Sie zeigen sinnlich schiefgelegte Köpfe, Jupiter (Zeus) in Gestalt eines Schwans, einer Wolke oder eines Goldregens, der sich immerzu an die Protagonistin der Erzählung anschmiegt, und spielen mit einer taktilen Oberfläche und dem Moment unmittelbar davor - vor dem Akt ... oder eigentlich der Vergewaltigung. 

Natürlich können wir heute versuchen diese Entscheidungen nachzuvollziehen, und es ist durchaus eindeutig für wen und in welchem Kontext mythologische Motive auf solch erotisierte, die Gewalt ausklammernde Weise dargestellt wurden - nämlich für ein von heterosexuellen Männern dominiertes Blickregime und nicht selten im ehelichen Rahmen, als Erinnerung an die frisch vermählte Frau, ihre ehelichen Pflichten zu erfüllen -, dennoch sollte auch der wahre Mythos (brutal, gewaltsam und echt) hinter den Gemälden nicht in Vergessenheit geraten.

Dort sitzt Leda mit geneigtem Kopf und niedergeschlagenen Augen, einen Schwan im Schoß, den sie sanft an den Federn festhält, und die Geschichte hinter dem Gemälde - das WARUM der Darstellungsart - führt uns zurück zu einer für den männlichen Blick konzipierten Kunst. Doch ursprünglich lautete die Erzählung (wie auch der antike römische Dichter Ovid sie in seinen Metamorphosen niederschrieb) wie folgt: Der Gott Jupiter verwandelte sich in einen Schwan und vergewaltigte die Königstochter Leda, woraufhin diese zwei Eier gebar. Aus dem einen Ei schlüpften Helena (ja, die Helena des Trojanischen Kriegs) und Pollux - Kinder Jupiters - aus dem anderen Klytaimnestra und Kastor - Kinder ihres Gatten Tyndareos.   

Also: ut pictura poesis, aber nicht vergessen, dass immer eine Differenz zwischen einem Gemälde und der Erzählung, die es dargestellt oder aufgreift, besteht, und dass Gemälde oft bloß Spiegel der Gesellschaft ihrer Entstehungszeit sind.

Correggio: Leda mit dem Schwan, um 1532, Staatliche Museen zu Berlin, Gemäldegalerie. (Ausschnitt)

[deathlessathanasia]

I heard the claim that no goddess helped women more than Athena but from what I’ve read in mythology Artemis seems to help women more than Athena does

Athena is more friendly/helpful to women than many people are willing to admit, but Artemis is more involved with women in general so she may indeed have more instances of showing favour to various maidens in myth. There are many examples of that sort for both of them though. Athena has Nyktimene, the daughter of Coroneus, Metioche and Menippe, the daughters of Pandareos, Eurynome the daughter of Nisos, the Danaides, Elaea, Myrsine, Nikandra and possibly others. Artemis has Arethousa, Britomartis, Iphigeneia (she does usually save her from being sacrificed and sometimes even makes her a goddess), Erigone, Kyrene, Daphne, Procris, Phylonoe the daughter of Tyndareos and Leda, the daughters of Pandareos, Opis, the Tegean maiden captured by Aristomelidas, seemingly Aspalis and probably some others.

[auroravibe]

Uğruna Truva Savaşı çıkarılmış güzeller güzeli, Zeus’un kızı olduğu iddia edilen Helen’i duymayan yoktur. Onun adı “Truvalı Helen” dir. Efsane olmuş aşk hikayelerinden biridir ona duyulan aşk.

Helen evlenecek yaşa geldiği vakit yakışıklı, zengin ve itibar sahibi bütün yunan gençleri onun peşine düşerler. Ancak Helen’in babası Kral Tyndareos, red edilen damat adaylarının daha sonra bir taşkınlık yapmasından korkar ve onu istemeye gelen herkese yemin ettirir. Helen kimi seçerse seçsin onun evliliğini ve huzurunu koruyacağına dair söz verdiren bir yemindir bu. Ardından damat olarak Menelaus’u seçer. Menelaus daha sonra kral olur.

Helen, Sparta’nın kraliçesiyken, kendinden 9 yaş küçük Truva prensi Paris tarafından kaçırılır. Bazı hikayelerde ise Menelaus’la süren 10 yıllık evliliği sonrasında Paris ile kaçtığı belirtiliyor. Ardından Menelaus, eski damat adaylarına yeminlerini hatırlatıyor ve onları bir araya toplayarak tarihteki en büyük Yunan ordusu ile tarihin en büyük savaşlarından birini veriyor. 🍃

[littlesparklight]

what sense do we get of helen and menelaus’ relationship pre-paris?

Search me, anon, because as far as I can remember right now, we don't have much of any surviving sources that focus on that to extrapolate from. It could probably be Whatever You Want.

Pre-marriage to wedding, Menelaos and Agamemnon has spent at least some amount of time in Sparta, but what that meant for Helen and Menelaos' relationship with each other could be... a lot of different things. (How much time would they have spent together? Been allowed to? How freely? etc and so on.)

If one goes with a version where Tyndareos allows Helen to choose (not, most often, out of any respect for his daughter's feelings or desires, however), then we've at least got the very basic "Helen might prefer a known - and presumably friendly - quality to unknown ones, no matter how handsome they might be" up to "she is genuinely in love/desires Menelaos and therefore chooses him". If one does not - well, she still ends up knowing something of her new husband thanks to having shared a roof with him, but it doesn't tell us what their relationship might be. (Tyndareos choosing is usually predicated on "Menelaos - via Agamemnon - offers the most bride price", so it has little to do with what Tyndareos might think Helen would want.)

Wedding to Paris' arrival... When it comes to lost works that would probably touch on this, presumably the Kypria would have had something. If just in how Helen and Menelaos interact/exchange conversation before Menelaos leaves for Crete. Same with Stesichorus' various treatments of the Trojan war. Our most fullest late sources remove Menelaos from the scene before Paris turns up, so we don't get any interaction between husband and wife there either.

I think, as a very basic extrapolation for what it means in the versions where Menelaos explicitly is present in Sparta for Paris' arrival and leaves x number of days later, is that he very clearly trusts Helen.

Sure, it's not the done thing to make a guest leave before they've indicated they're ready (as Menelaos mentions in the Odyssey). But usually the (male) host wouldn't be leaving his house at any point during a guest staying there, which Menelaos does. The trust in Helen/her character/her behaviour, is at least explicit in how Helen tells it in her letter in Ovid's Heroides (#17): "Nor let his absence cause you to wonder that I have been left here with you; my character and way of life have taught him trust. My face makes him fearful, my life makes him sure; he feels secure in my virtue, my charms rouse his fear."

We don't have Sophocles' Helenes Apaitesis (which was about Menelaos and Odysseus' embassy to demand Helen back), which isn't pre-Paris but still nominally pre-war. The late Dictys Cretensis has its Helen wish to stay in Troy, but explicitly remains uncertain on why Helen wants this (love of Paris, or fear of punishment?), which doesn't tell us anything about Helen and Menelaos, really.

And, for all that "Menelaos attempts to kill Helen during the sack" is a very strong strain of plot in basically all versions of the sack as we have/don't have it, and I certainly acknowledge it, in my opinion that does not actually say much about Helen and Menelaos' relationship pre-war.

Because Menelaos does this 10+ years after Helen left Sparta (in whatever way), after 10 years of war and stewing in his emotions about Paris' actual betrayal and Helen's either actual or potential such. A lot of things can change or be corrupted in all that time (same as for Helen and Paris' relationship from leaving Sparta to the Iliad). I do think it's perfectly possible that Helen and Menelaos' relationship could have been great pre-Paris and Menelaos might still end up resorting to a crime of passion in the moment - that Aphrodite helps steer off and then his better mind and feelings reassert themselves.

Or, conversely, they could have had a bad to neutral marriage and Menelaos might be very intentional about what he's intending and Aphrodite's rescue might then be even more necessary. I don't prefer this one, but it's not an impossible reading.

Both the Odyssey - in Helen's own words - and Sappho 16 - by the lyrical I/the "poet", one post-war, one kind of prewar but not pre-paris, have something that amounts to "Menelaos lacked in nothing". But those are rather reasoned and moderate statements. In Sappho 16's case, that Menelaos is "best of husbands" doesn't stop Helen from leaving, and for the Helen of the Odyssey, being post-war and post-Paris, any such statement is complicated, if only by the fact of it being said both about present-time Menelaos and the past one, looking back. It's not an unburdened judgment of Menelaos/him as a husband and thus their relationship (now or then), regardless of its genuineness.

So, in sum ╮(╯-╰)╭ anon. We don't have enough to say the sources actually give us any ideas of how their relationship was before Paris.

[afraschatz]

The Children of Atreus

Let's talk a bit about the coolest of the mythological Greeks, the children of Atreus - Agamemnon, Menelaus, and Anaxabia. And let me just name three things about them that are guaranteed to make you fall in love with them.

Before that, here is a quick summary of the things that everyone already knows anyway: Menelaus is the famous king of Sparta whose wife Helen’s disappearance sparked the Trojan War. The Greeks’ troops are led by his brother, Agamemnon, king of mighty Mycenae (who, when returning from the war, gets murdered by his wife Clytemnestra). Anaxabia is their sister, and she is married to Strophius, king of Phocis.

Secondly, here are three of the (many) reasons why they are The Best:

 1 - They are the best of siblings.

Obviously, they are called the Atrides (or Atreides) after their father, Atreus, who is the son of Pelops and grandson of Tantalus. That makes them part of the forever cursed family of the Tantalides. That curse manifests itself in their father’s relationship with his brother, Thyest. Atreus and Thyest come to Mycenae after they get thrown out of Elis, the territory around Olympia, for murdering their half-brother. They then quickly gain power and influence in Mycenae and use the majority of it to stab each other in the back - repeatedly and quite literally, as they both end up dead.

With role models such as these (plus the curse that Tantalus brought on his family for murdering and cooking his own son just to prove a point), it is absolutely amazing and quite heart-warming how close the Atrides are. Despite their family history of betrayal and murder, they always, ALWAYS stand by one another and support each other.

I mean, Agamemnon starts a war to end all wars to get justice for his brother, for fuck’s sake (yeah, yeah, there’s that bit about the oath of Helen; I’ll get to that later), and for that ten-year-long war they are practically joined at the hip.

And it’s not just a matter of obvious power-politics either: Agamemnon sends his son Orestes to his sister and brother-in-law in Phocis when he has to leave for war. To entrust his only male heir to them is massive proof of his trust in them, in her. Anaxabia and Strophius continue to raise Orestes as their own, and Orestes becomes best friends (and quite definitely lovers, according to my man Euripides) with their son, Pylades who supports him through thick and thin.

Pylades ends up marrying Electra, Agamemnon’s daughter, while Orestes gets wed to Hermione, Menelaus’s kid with Helen. While for today’s standards this might be a bit too incestuous for comfort, it is further proof how tightly knit that family now (in contrast to previous generations and their fondness for throwing people down wells / dismemberment) is because of the bond of the three siblings.

 2 - They are strategic and diplomatic masterminds.

Agamemnon and Menelaus are often reduced to being one entitled and power-hungry dick and his arrogant but ultimately impotent little brother. While that makes them the perfect cardboard-cut-villain for everyone in need of one (such as grieving Achilles, for one) and while I enjoy Brian Cox and Brendan Gleeson as “Troy”’s villains as well as Sophocles's characterization of them in "Aias" as much as the next guy, it really doesn’t do them justice.

First of all, as for the notion that they are entitled and/or feeble: Both of them are self-made men. Not only are they (as well as Anaxabia) kids of a refugee / man living in exile, after their uncle Thyest overthrows their father and has him murdered, they have to flee from Mycenae and seek refuge in Sparta, with king Tyndareos, their future father-in-law, (step) father of Clytemnestra and Helen. From there, they not only manage to mobilize enough man power to overthrow Thyest and conquer Mycenae. They also turn Mycenae into the most influential and mightiest of all the Greeks’ kingdoms. And by proving himself over and over again, Menelaus inherits the right to the throne of Sparta from his father-in-law, while Anaxabia marries the king of Phocis, a kingdom North of the gulf of Corinth with influential Delphi right in the center.

The Atrides’s influence is not just gained by clever marriage and perseverance, however. Sure, the famous oath of Helen (in which all the kings that asked for Helen’s hand in marriage swore to protect her and her husband-to-be) is thought up by wily Odysseus. But who makes sure (for all those years before Paris) that it would be upheld? It’s not like alliances between Greek kingdoms are all that stable. And yet, the council of kings - including extremely strong-willed characters such as Achilles, Aias, and Odysseus - WORKS and works well for ten years, even under the pressure of a prolonged war. Why? It’s because Agamemnon knows how to choose advisers (such as wise Nestor), knows how to utilize the human equivalent of an eel (I am looking at you, Odysseus) etc. He is a fucking brilliant politician. (And it was his RIGHT (AND a necessity) to demand Briseis from Achilles, however much the Myrmidon may moan about it; but more about that later).

Simple proof in numbers: Three exiled kids with NOTHING; fast-forward a decade or two and you have this: Agamemnon commands the largest of the Greek fleets (100 ships). If you add to those the number of Spartan (60) and Phocian (40) ships as well, that’s a whooping 200, even if you disregard for instance the huge Cretan fleet (80) which is led by their uncle, Idomeneus. Brilliant strategists and politicians.

 3 - They are so highkey EXTRA when it comes to the love department. (Well, the brothers are. Anaxabia rolls her eyes at them.)

Before I talk about the brothers and their highkey Extra relationships to their wives, let me just again go back to Anaxabia. Her marriage to Strophius is delightfully stable and uneventful and no one ends up dead (which is quite rare in Greek mythology, really). It produces delightfully stable and unproblematic children, such as the original bestest of mates, Pylades. Just think of Anaxabia and her husband just looking at each other silently at a family dinner,when her dramatic brothers and their dramatic wives start throwing food (and possibly knives) across the table. Next year, we’re doing a couple’s retreat in Delphi, my dear. I love her.

But the brothers’ marriages are equally fascinating.

Paris kidnaps Helen while Menelaus is attending his grandfather Catreus’s funeral btw - dick move, prince of Troy -, and for some reason THEIR relationship is the stuff of legends? Well, fuck that. While I have all the love in the world for one (1) flamboyant and canonically cowardly favourite of Aphrodite, let’s not forget how superglue-strong Menelaus’s bond with Helen is.

First of all, out of all the suitors for her hand in marriage, she chooses HIM without hesitation - after they must’ve known each other for years, btw considering Menelaus’s time in exile in Sparta.

And when she is suddenly gone, he mobilizes literally every available man in Greece to get her back.

That’s a matter of pride, you say? That’s because - much like Agamemnon when he demands Achilles’s prize of war, Briseis, because he had to give his own, Chryseis, back to appease Apollo - he would lose face and power (and thus massively endangering the stability of his reign and consequently the safety of his country, btw)? Sure, it’s that as well.

But.

It’s not like other kings haven’t “misplaced” a wife before. It’s not like he couldn’t simply have claimed she died. He could have. And you know what? It would have saved him from being both the laughing stock of all of Greece (“Here comes Menelaus who couldn’t hold on to his wife”) and also everyone’s favourite villain for having to go to war for him.

And later, what does he do when he finds her again - either in the ruins of Troy or in far away Egypt? Does he kill her? Does he demand a divorce?

No. They sail back to Sparta together and - and this is the kicker - rule together for many years, quite happily reunited.

He fucking loves her, and she loves him. (Okay, she might ALSO love Paris and that whole war could’ve been avoided if they just got into a poly relationship. I wouldn’t have been opposed to that either.)

The same goes for Agamemnon and his family.

Iphigenia, you yell at me in outrage? Well, the unquestioned villain in THAT story is so clearly vengeful Artemis for demanding her life in the first place. And yes, you may fight me on this.

And okay, I am having a slightly harder time explaining away Agamemnon murdering Clytemnestra’s first husband as a romantic gesture, fine. But my point is, Agamemnon’s and Clytemnestra’s relationship status throughout is clearly “it’s complicated”, it’s ENDLESSLY fascinating. Plus, Clytemnestra is such a fierce and badass (Spartan) woman who without problem competently takes care of Mycenae during the war. They are SO well suited for one another, and their relationship is brilliant, from a storytelling point of view.

 So, in conclusion: Give me Rufus Sewell as Agamemnon, Dominic West as Menelaus, and Oona Chaplin as Anaxabia, and I’d watch the hell out of twenty plus seasons about the Atrides and how they feel rightfully superior to all those other Peloponnesian peasants .

The Atrides are the best. It’s just a fact.

[someothermonstra]

I'm feeling real galaxy brain rn

I've been contemplating writing various things set in / inspired by Greek mythos/epics/tragedies bc I've been obsessed with all that for the past >5 years and I just had this big oh shit moment thinking about the Cypria fragments and what it says about Helen's parentage + my characterization of Helen's desperation to be mortal and the daughter of Tyndareos and What That Means given that she's not mortal at all (this version saying that she's the child of Zeus and Nemesis, therefore not mortal at all)

But also, liiiiiike... Maybe? It's actually Klytaimestra who is the divine child? What if everyone just fucking forgot??

Or is Klyte just that much of a boss that she can embody Nemesis and enact divine justice/vengeance (invoking Zeus Teleios, if you take Aeschylus' word for it, while she's at it) despite being 100% mortal and having no blood relation to Helen??

[angel-panos-sideris]

Θεόδωρος ξανά? και Πουλχερία για απόψε ως τιμώμενοι

M/Y Tyndareo #sealants #adhesives #technoseal #pps_go_green

Καλημέρα!!