#triarchy

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

Some interesting takes here from OP, but I think this claim in the tags to 'war criminal by inaction' (not OP) is, to put it lightly, a bit of a stretch.

Yes, Ormund is certainly presented as ultimately the one in command, both at Tumbleton and at Bitterbridge:

When Lady Caswell appeared on the ramparts of her castle to ask for the same terms Lady Merryweather had received, Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer: “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor.” Her ladyship could only watch as Bitterbridge was sacked. The Hogs Head was the first building put to the torch. Inns, guild halls, storehouses, the homes of the mean and the mighty, dragonflame consumed them all. Even the sept was burned, with hundreds of wounded still within. Only the bridge remained untouched, as it was required to cross the Mander. The people of the town were put to the sword if they tried to fight or flee, or were driven into the river to drown. Lady Caswell watched from her walls, then commanded that her gates be thrown open. “No castle can be held against a dragon,” she told her garrison. When Lord Hightower rode up, he found her standing atop the gatehouse with a noose about her neck. “Have mercy on my children, lord,” she begged, before throwing herself down to hang. Mayhaps that moved Lord Ormund, for her ladyship’s young sons and daughter were spared and sent in chains to Oldtown. The men of the castle garrison received no mercy but the sword.

You can read 'Hightower let Prince Daeron give the answer' as either

Ormund let Daeron make the decision

Daeron was doing what his uncle told him

Since Ormund is the one ultimately deciding the fate of Lady Caswell's children and the garrison, that could imply the latter. You could interpret Daeron's words and actions at Bitterbridge has him following Ormund's orders. There's no indication that Daeron was consulted on the fate of Lady Caswell's children - though perhaps like Ormund he saw the lives of highborn children as more worthy of mercy than the smallfolk of Bitterbridge.

Because Daeron did still... burn a town to the ground. Not an army (of conscripts) - shops, homes, septs full of the wounded. He burnt people who had nothing to do with Maelor's death - who had already executed those responsible. He burnt civilians. He burnt children. He did it at Bitterbridge, and frankly he was doing so at Tumbleton without the Dragonseeds aid.

Plus while the presence of two larger dragons at Tumbleton is arguably relevant to his inability to intervene with the on the ground violence, it has zero bearing on his previous actions at Bitterbridge, where he was the only dragonrider.

No one had the power to force him to do that.

We can talk about the psychological difference between seeing the carnage at Tumbleton on the ground vs burning people from the air - how easy it is to slaughter from a distance. I am willing to read Daeron as someone who only started to confront the reality of war when he was witnessing it up close - and yeah got upset over it.

But my sympathy for that is... limited to the point of non-existence. Daeron wasn't so sheltered that he didn't know he was burning civilians. Even if he was 'just following orders'... well do I even need to elaborate on that? He burned hundreds of people alive.

Even if we go by fantasy pseudo-medieval standards regarding conduct in war - this was a town that had fucking surrendered. Lady Caswell was in negotiations to yield to the Greens. There was literally no fantasy pseudo-medieval military 'justification' - just bloodshed for the sake of bloodshed.

You know how many towns Jace burnt when his brother was murdered? Zero.

Meanwhile the only dragonriders who burned towns were on Team Green - Aemond, Daeron, Hugh and Ulf. I mean, when Benioff & Weiss assassinated Dany's character by having her burn King's Landing, they literally compared her to hitler.

Daeron cried when his father died? Daeron was gentle? Daeron was upset to see the carnage up close? Daeron wasn't ultimately in charge of the situation (dragon aside)?

Plenty of people who commit monstrous acts cry. Plenty can be gentle, or 'soft'. Plenty can be upset to see carnage up close. They can not be in charge of the situation. They can have PTSD, they can commit suicide. They can hate other war criminals who commit 'worse' war crimes. They can rationalise why their war crimes are different. They can be 'just following orders. They are still war criminals - and certainly not by inaction.

Sure, Daeron may be more 'complicated' than simply being a twisted little psycho revelling in bloodshed. On one level his young age does grant him some consideration as a victim of his upbringing, of the influences and pressures of the adults around him, of their normalisation of war crimes. There is a point to which we can read his story as a tragedy - an otherwise gentle kid who could have been a good person.

As OP rightly said, he has a demonstrated capacity for empathy. Maybe his personal opposition to Hugh and Ulf was even his way of coping with what he did - refusing to confront his own actions by displacing his disgust to two notably lower class war criminals (and not to Ormund). There is something psychologically fascinating about that, even a little bit tragic.

But he is tragic only to a very limited point.

Even at the most charitable reading of his character, he's no more the cutey patootie his stans make him out to be than the most 'inactive' 'guilt-stricken' war criminal currently claiming they have ptsd/feel suicidal from the war crimes they put up on social media.

To stress very fucking clearly - I am just working out my own understanding of Daeron's psychology here, and who he reminds me of. I have zero interest in using a real ongoing monstrosity to condemn or score points against people who like (or in any way want to have a nuanced conversation about) a fictional dragonrider on a pretty blue dragon. The characters we like and find interesting in fantasy fiction is not a reflection of our actual real life values - go ahead and have fun.

At the same time I do find it valuable to critically engage with why certain characters do draw interest and sympathy - especially pretty white male characters. Again, consider how many Dany antis afford sympathy to Aegon, Aemond and Daeron without a trace of irony. While this isn't a reflection of everyone who finds Daeron interesting, it is a frequent enough pattern to warrant discussion.

Because while the characters we afford sympathy to in fiction is not necessarily a reflection of our actual real life values... at the same time it is! No character is written or responded to in a vacuum.

On one level, I do think it's important to understand the capacity for evil by otherwise 'gentle' or 'soft' people, especially teenagers. How those who consider themselves 'good people', who can be sympathetic, and who even perform good acts, are capable of being monsters in certain circumstances. How capacity for empathy isn't enough to stop you from crossing many fucking lines.

That being said, Daeron falls into a very common trope. A trope that is part a tendency in broader media and pop culture to be selectively charitable and sympathetic, that is worth addressing:

At what point does treating a fictional war criminal with nuance and sympathy turn from engaging with our capacity for evil... towards opening a space for people to downplay responsibility. Or to displace responsibility. Or to deny altogether. To hand out excuses and forgiveness that is completely undeserved and unearned. To grant them some perverse victimhood that overshadows their victims.

Remember, he joins the Caltrops in condemning Hugh and Ulf. He doesn't condemn Ormund or the other lords assembled for committing exactly the same butchery. He doesn't condemn himself. He displaces responsibility.

Perhaps if he lived then the part of Daeron that could have been a good person had the potential to one day take responsibility, to one day actively atone. But again, this is a trope. A trope that is very much present in our cultural tendency to offer forgiveness and excuses to certain people, with certain victims, before they've even hinted at taking responsibility, or atoning. Contributing to the likelihood that they never will. Because we don't demand it of them.

Perhaps Daeron dying pathetically in a collapsed tent is the best thematic statement GRRM could have made. Who cares how sad or tortured he was? Who cares how gentle he was? Who cares what he could have been? What about his victims, what about what they could have been? Go ahead and join the rest of the TG war criminals in meeting a pathetic end:

“I’ll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker,” declared Longleaf. “There’s tens o’ thousands dead on your account.”

So to conclude... 'war criminal by inaction' is far too charitable to Daeron. I mean, never underestimate the evil of inaction, but Daeron was very much active.

Specifically, active in the fiery collective punishment of a civilian population for the death of a life he valued above theirs. Coming from a family that had condemned thousands as reasonable collateral damage in a civil war for their own selfish personal gain, that they tried to reframe as pre-emptive 'self-defense' despite being the source of the violence.

Hi! I immediately apologize for my bad English...

What do you think about Daeron's role in Tumbleton? Many people in fandom accuse him of not stopping the army. As far as I remember, the actions of the soldiers horrified him and he wanted to stop them, but he failed. People often say: he is a prince, he had a dragon, these are his people and his responsibility, he could stop the army

(I thought I answered this already but apparently this ask has been sitting in my drafts for a while.)

Your English is fine. ^^

I see Daeron’s story as being about the horrors of war, and one of the reasons for that is the change in Daeron’s personality. At the beginning, he is described as “the gentlest” of his siblings. By the time of his last moments, he is called “once-gentle”, letting the readers know he is no longer the same boy he used to be. In the original published version of The Princess and the Queen, he's even the one who cries when he hears about his father's death. So he is characterized as an emphatic figure. However, Daeron is clearly a sheltered child being directly exposed to a great deal of unfiltered violence which is bound to affect him in negative ways. He will be changed as a person, becoming more comfortable with violence over time. While I don’t think he lost his gentle nature entirely, it was clearly warped by the war.

When it comes to Tumbleton, Daeron takes part in the 'Field of Fire writ small', but is not said to be involved with any of the other atrocities that occurred:

It was the Field of Fire writ small, Grand Maester Munkun wrote. Tumbleton went up in flame: shops, homes, septs, people, all. Men fell burning from gatehouse and battlements, or stumbled shrieking through the streets like so many living torches. Outside the walls, Prince Daeron swooped down upon Tessarion. Pate of Longleaf was unhorsed and trampled, Ser Garibald Grey pierced by a crossbow bolt, then engulfed by dragonflame. The Two Betrayers scourged the town with whips of flame from one end to the other.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

The sack that followed was as savage as any in the history of Westeros. Tumbleton, that prosperous market town, was reduced to ash and embers. Thousands burned, and as many died by drowning as they tried to swim the river. Some would later say they were the fortunate ones, for no mercy was shown the survivors. Lord Footly’s men threw down their swords and yielded, only to be bound and beheaded. Such townswomen as survived the fires were raped repeatedly, even girls as young as eight and ten. Old men and boys were put to the sword, whilst the dragons fed upon the twisted, smoking carcasses of their victims. Tumbleton was never to recover; though later Footlys would attempt to rebuild atop the ruins, their “new town” would never be a tenth the size of the old, for the smallfolk said the very ground was haunted.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

The horrors of those days cannot be gainsaid. Seldom has any town or city in the history of the Seven Kingdoms been subject to as long or as cruel or as savage a sack as Tumbleton after the Treasons. Without a strong lord to restrain them, even good men can turn to beasts. So was it here. Bands of soldiers wandered drunkenly through the streets robbing every home and shop, and slaying any man who tried to stay their hands. Every woman was fair prey for their lust, even crones and little girls. Wealthy men were tortured unto death to force them to reveal where they had hidden their gold and gems. Babes were torn from their mothers’ arms and impaled upon the points of spears. Holy septas were chased naked through the streets and raped, not by one man but by a hundred; silent sisters were violated. Even the dead were not spared. Instead of being given honorable burial, their corpses were left to rot, fodder for carrion crows and wild dogs. Septon Eustace and Grand Maester Munkun both assert that Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as ineffectual as the man himself.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

Two important things to note here: (1) Based on how Daeron's actions are depicted, he appears okay with raining fire down upon any enemies, but opposed to taking the violence any further. (2) He hands over authority to other men rather than solving the problem himself.

I think a pre-war Daeron would not have been okay with even burning people but the exposure to the battlefield made him much more comfortable with violence.

Part of the reason why the war situation grew so dire is because Daeron obviously failed to put a stop to the horror occurring at Tumbleton:

A different sort of chaos reigned in Tumbleton, sixty leagues to the southwest. Whilst King’s Landing quailed in terror, the foes they feared had yet to advance a foot toward the city, for King Aegon’s loyalists found themselves leaderless, beset by division, conflict, and doubt. Ormund Hightower lay dead, along with his cousin Ser Bryndon, the foremost knight of Oldtown. His sons remained back at the Hightower a thousand leagues away, and were green boys besides. And whilst Lord Ormund had dubbed Daeron Targaryen “Daeron the Daring” and praised his courage in battle, the prince was still a boy. The youngest of Queen Alicent’s sons, he had grown up in the shadow of his elder brothers, and was more used to following commands than giving them.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

Being the youngest in his family (he has older siblings and nephews all ahead of him in the line of succession), means he would've been taught to follow orders from a young age. Daeron's role in the war was primarily serving as a scout in his uncle's army. At no point has Daeron ever been in charge of anything. So someone like Daeron suddenly finding himself in a leadership position out of the blue is not going to be very successful. When it comes to stopping the sack of Tumbleton, Daeron didn’t even attempt to do that himself. Instead, he went to one of his uncles, to get him to put a stop to it.

There's also the fact that the two people leading the sack had much larger dragons, and Daeron would've been acutely aware of this:

The Two Betrayers felt the need of a king as well…but Daeron Targaryen was not the king they wanted. “We need a strong man to lead us, not a boy,” declared Hard Hugh Hammer. “The throne should be mine.” When Bold Jon Roxton demanded to know by what right he presumed to name himself a king, Lord Hammer answered, “The same right as the Conqueror. A dragon.” And truly, with Vhagar dead at last, the oldest and largest living dragon in all Westeros was Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King, now that of Hard Hugh the bastard. Vermithor was thrice the size of Prince Daeron’s she-dragon Tessarion. No man who glimpsed them together could fail to see that Vermithor was a far more fearsome beast.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

I think there is something to be said about Daeron, as a member of the ruling family, holding a responsibility to protect the people. Someone else in his position probably would've made a greater effort to oppose what was happening at Tumbleton. But considering Daeron's upbringing, he is not really acclimated to ordering around large armies of men. Even at Bitterbridge, Daeron only came to the forefront after his uncle permitted him to do so.

Just look at what happens when Daeron & the Caltrops decide to finally rid themselves of the dragonseeds:

Lord Unwin Peake and a somewhat reluctant Hobert Hightower summoned eleven other lords and landed knights to a secret council in the cellar of a Tumbleton inn, to discuss what might be done to curb the arrogance of the baseborn dragonriders. [...] Though Prince Daeron was not present at the council, the Caltrops (as the conspirators became known) were loath to proceed without his consent and blessing. Owen Fossoway, Lord of Cider Hall, was dispatched under cover of darkness to wake the prince and bring him to the cellar, that the plotters might inform him of their plans. Nor did the once-gentle prince hesitate when Lord Unwin Peake presented him with warrants for the execution of Hard Hugh Hammer and Ulf White, but eagerly affixed his seal.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

Note how the other lords do all the planning themselves, and when they finally invite Daeron, it's only to get royal authority from the Prince so they can proceed with their actions in a legally justifiable manner. Unlike his two older brothers who would've absolutely made their voices heard at that council, Daeron just listens and follows orders.

I definitely don't agree with the people who claim Daeron is some malicious individual who reveled in the carnage at Tumbleton. Something like that doesn't fit the type of soft personality he has. At the same time, it's because of his personality that he would be unable to take charge in the midst of a war, and therefore prove inadequate in stopping the multitude of war crimes taking place.

[stromuprisahat]

Across Westeros, the winds of war were blowing up the narrow sea as well. The murder of Sharako Lohar of Lys, the admiral who had presided over the Triarchy’s disaster in the Gullet, proved to be the spark that engulfed the Three Daughters in flames, fanning the smoldering rivalries of Tyrosh, Lys, and Myr into open war. It is now commonly accepted that Sharako’s death was a personal matter; the arrogant admiral was slain by one of his rivals for the favor of a courtesan known as the Black Swan. At the time, however, his death was seen as a political killing, and the Myrish were suspected. When Lys and Myr went to war, Tyrosh seized the opportunity to assert its dominion over the Stepstones.

Fire and Blood (George R. R. Martin)

[thoughtfulfoxllama]

I am creating a Micronation (Tzomar, or the Triarchy). Why? Pure boredom

So, why not explain the layout. It's called a Triarchy, because it is formed of Three Councils. The Executive Branch is the King's Council. The Legislative is the Council of Fifty. And the Judicial is a council based on the Sanhedrin

(And, with it being Mormon Inspired, religious discrimination has no place in the Triarchy. It doesn't matter if your Muslim, Atheist, or worship a White Dog, you will have the same rights as everyone, including the right to be elected to, chosen for, or inherit any position)

The King/Queen (this being a Mormon-based Micronation) is supposed to be a Descendant of Joseph Smith. Until then, my family will take that role

The Council of Fifty will be lead by a council of five Ephors. Although the council is elected by the population, the Ephors will be elected by the Council Members. The Ephors (like the Spartan Officers they're based on) will have Veto Power over the king/queen, and can displace him/her

The Sanhedrin (for lack of a better word atm) will have 71 members (representing the 70 Nations in Genesis, and the Church of God in Nephi's Vision). They'll have the power to interpret the Law. Like the Biblical Sanhedrin, each City would have a smaller council of 23)

I have more to write, and I'm not even done forming it (the above is just a rough draft). I have economics & the start of a Constitution. But for now, I'll work on it

"We are all Gods in Embryo. And so, we foster a Pantheon of Brotherhood"

-King Kristopher i

[cynicalclassicist]

I can well imagine that. After all, a weakened 7K must be better for Dorne!

Why did the Dornish join the Triarchy in fighting against Daemon?

Probably as part of a foreign policy geared toward screwing with the Seven Kingdoms whenever possible without inviting blowback toward Dorne itself. That was basically France's foreign policy against Britain in the Revolutionary War.

-SLAL

[cold-v0dka]

[squarbies]

oh my fucking god. the triarchy has blue hair AND pronouns

[lqynxv]

whenever they merge background characters in hotd and people complain as if they actually care

[hotdaemondtargaryen]

2.08 BTS — jefferson hall as tyland lannister.

[imjulia-andilikecats]

YOU ARE DOING GREAT SWEETIE!

Seriously, dude can't catch a break

[chasingthedragons]

Events that went down in History during the Reing of Viserys I Targaryen 9/8

War for the Stepstones

In 111 AC. LORD CORLYS VELARYON and PRINCE DAEMON TARGARYEN, self-proclaimed PRINCE OF DRAGONSTONE, called his bannermen, against the wishes of the CROWN, initiating a war against the TRIARCHY for control of the sea passage of the STEPSTONES, after months of assaults on westerosi ships.

To the call of the "PRINCE OF DRAGONSTONE" responded the HOUSES STAUNTON of ROOK REST, CELTIGAR of CLAW ISLE, BAR EMMON of SHARP POINT and HOUSE SUNGLASS of SWEETPORT SOUND, all houses of the BLACKWATER BAY. And also counting with PRINCE DAEMON TARGARYEN rider of the dragon CARAXES and SER LAENOR VELARYON rider of SEASMOKE.

After 3 years of intense battles, the VELARYON were on the verge of defeat, with their days numbered, they could only rely on a risky plan, to get the pirates out of the caves, kill their leaders and disperse the remaining forces of the TRIARCHY.

It was then that KING VISERYS I TARGARYEN sent a missive to his brother PRINCE DAEMON TARGARYEN informing him of a fleet sent by the CROWN to finally put an end to the conflict. In any case, PRINCE DAEMON TARGARYEN went into action, offering himself as bait to get most of the pirate forces to expose themselves and to be eliminated by the VELARYON army, their ALLIES and SEASMOKE, sealing their victory, at least for now…

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9

[stromuprisahat]

... Spicetown was brutally sacked, the bodies of men, women, and children butchered in the streets and left as fodder for gulls and rats and carrion crows, its buildings burned. The town would never be rebuilt. High Tide was put to the torch as well. All the treasures the Sea Snake had brought back from the east were consumed by fire, his servants cut down as they tried to flee the flames. The Velaryon fleet lost almost a third of its strength. Thousands died. Yet none of these losses were felt so deeply as that of Jacaerys Velaryon, Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne. Rhaenyra’s youngest son seemed lost as well. In the confusion of battle, none of the survivors seemed quite certain which ship Prince Viserys had been on. Men on both sides presumed him dead, drowned or burned or butchered. And though his brother Aegon the Younger had fled and lived, all the joy had gone out of the boy; he would never forgive himself for leaping onto Stormcloud and abandoning his little brother to the enemy. It is written that when the Sea Snake was congratulated on his victory, the old man said, “If this be victory, I pray I never win another”.

Fire and Blood (George R. R. Martin)

[cacodaemonia]

I am SO excited to see her in House of the Dragon!! *running in circles*

[littler3d]

I am so easy to please you put a female pirate in front of me I am ready to go hello Admiral Lohar

[royal-husbands]

I thought I could keep quiet, but no. I hate this scene of Otto and Aegon arguing, considering how stupid it is. I can't imagine book!Otto running up to Aegon with such bullshit as hanging rat catchers, humiliating and threatening him. I can't imagine Otto actually threatening his grandson and the king! It's just fucked up! Yes, yes, the series reshapes a lot for itself (just look at Alicent), but Otto's behavior in this scene is so fucked up that I can't review it properly. They mentioned the inaction of the hand, but in the book it was after Rhaenyra's allies were replenished, after she became stronger. In the series… Tell me, does Otto really care about the lives of these pied pipers and what will the commoners think? Because I strongly doubt that from such an act of revenge for the death of the heir, the lords will consider that "well, no, we won't mess with such shit." I doubt.