#toxic spn set

[jarpadswalker]

Now, we all know exactly when, who, and how SPN set became toxic. Misha was the leech that hit SPN and made everything toxic. You could see how he impacted Jared just by looking at his health. Jared is glowing ever since Supernatural ended.

Also, it is very telling how not a single person has ever talked about how great it is to work with Misha in a public context ( barring the PR activity/con where actors have to give the party line). Nor, is he getting any new projects clearly seeing how unlikeable and toxic he is.

Also, not to forget this is not the first instance even during S7 when Misha was removed (a great initiative by Sara)he couldn't find a single job and started blaming Supernatural.

[laf-outloud]

It strikes me a lot of unprofessional people were allowed to get their hands on Spn. No wonder Jared talked about agendas and toxic environments and wanted to leave.

One of these days, after the conventions are over and the possibility of a reboot is dead, some crew member is going to write a tell-all and at this point, I'm not sure there's much that could surprise me. Jared was far too generous to let these people leech off of SPN for as long as they did.

I'm so grateful that Jared was able to move directly to another set where he has the ability and the authority to shut down any toxicity. It makes me wonder if he didn't have Walker if he would have even come back to acting.

[dotthings]

lolol the way spn standom treats this canon it supposedly loves so much is a crisis every single day and I know the show is over so people think it’s not supposed to matter the way it once did but it matters. I’m not going to just sit here while that source text gets mangled in an endless loop by most of what’s left of spn “fandom.” It is not only record breaking as the longest running genre tv series on US broadcast history (or streaming too), it’s among the greatest genre series in US tv history. Flaws and all. It is. I am just going to say it. It deserves better than to be relegated to the chronic ~edgy hot take that it’s the worst show ever and people shouldn’t like it. GTFO if you hate it so much.

* the “everything about this sucks after S3 mentality” or “everything about this sucks since Kripke left” needs to get thrown into a hole. These aren’t spn fans. They were once upon a time probably but no longer are and they need to leave.

* the parasocialized lenses warping the canon takes, where people have latched onto any of J2M to the point where they’ve allowed it to govern how they perceive the entire show and characters instead of seeing the story as a story and the characters as they actually are in canon and where they literally think spn sprang fully formed out of J2M’s brains and writers don’t exist. My kingdom for some media literacy.

* narrow-minded warped lenses that keep thumping on like evangelists about how the show is only about the brothers and the entire rich narrative gets flushed down the toilet by these so-called bestest truest stans ever. They do not pay attention to this canon, they do not appreciate this canon, they’re fixated on a broship, and that’s the extent of their ability to comprehend the actual source text of a show they are supposedly such huge fans of. Also years of marketing is also guilty on this. Guilty!! J’accuse, marketing. Marketing is a simplistic packaged gloss and does not reflect the richness within. Some of the marketing reflects more of that richness, but mostly the standard branding line “about two brothers” gets slapped on it and reality is a whole lot more to it. People don’t really use critical thinking or media literacy to understand that’s just the backbone construct of it and not a reflection of all the actual flesh.

[rubyrubyrubytuesday]

The Halliwells are sort of 'what if Sam and Dean were more normal about each other because they aren't doomed by the narrative to be in a horror show, stuck in a cycle of endless hopeless paranoid tragedy'.

They're the model for The Most Normal I Think They Are Ever Capable Of Being (living in a house together where their SOs get disrespected because only Siblings Get Votes)

Right down to 'younger sibling gets demon bf/gf, older sibling gets angel bf'

[he13na]

can 2023 be the year we stop thinking it’s cute and edgy to misgender celebrities and fictional characters

[thenameisgul]

Misha, we could never thankyou enough for your services 👏🏻

misha collins first instinct when coming on spn literally being "i'm gonna make it gay" [x]

[eisforeidolon]

In regards to that post [X]:

We could talk about the same old fallacies - OMG, Dean's siren is a guy! Yeah, a brother. OMG, Dean was supposed to say I love you in the Crypt scene! Yeah, it was removed and replaced with what the writer explicitly said was the less OOC version of what he meant anyway, "We're family". We could talk about the blatant absurdity of statements like "Dean liked men it happened on my screen" which bear no resemblance to the SPN that aired. But we've done that before and others have got this reiteration of it well covered.

So I wanna focus for the moment on this particular even more repulsive gem: "Like he literally doesn't need to verbally tell us he's bisexual we just know. He may not know but we do. This is an unmovable fact sorry."

It tells us a few things. One, this person is a fucking idiot. Two, this person, yet again, thinks that ~*interpreting*~ sexuality from the way someone looks/stands/makes eye contact/eats pastry/whatever numbnuts conspiracy bullshit you like? Is more valid than how a character identifies and is identified by those who created him. People can just look at you and know what your sexuality is better than you do, there's nothing repulsive about that idea at all! I've got a mountain of shiny pennies that says if Dean had literally never interacted with a man for the entire span of the series, they would have insisted it was because he was so afraid of how much he wanted to fuck them. There was no way the writers could have written Dean that someone like that would have accepted as actually heterosexual, because that's not what they personally wanted, so that's not what they were going to see.

I'm not saying there aren't things that might be said about how relatively questionable some of the gay jokes in SPN are, especially in the early years in terms of making queerness a punchline. But if we're going to talk about that? We need to do it not only in the cultural context of 2005 rather than 2023, but in the context of portrayals of real world men - and particularly those in fairly rural settings who aren't going to be particularly conscientious in the way they rib each other. Which becomes a whole other discussion about where to draw lines when you're writing fiction and dealing with things that might be realistic but also potentially offensive.

Furthermore, I'm not saying there aren't things that might be said about how SPN continually used romantic tropes for platonic relationships and how it's not entirely absurd for that to land different with the audience when the characters are not blood-related. Except that discussion needs to include not just how maybe the writers shouldn't have treated it as such a joke that a relationship between two male characters might have been possible, but also how fans should absolutely not have equated a relationship being theoretically possible with any specific relationship they wanted being owed to them. Especially in the context of those romantic tropes being used so so so much more between brothers all the fucking time setting the tone. As well as how it's not just problematic to treat the possibility of homosexual relationships as a joke, but problematic to insist literally any closeness between two male entities is gay, reinforcing all kinds of nasty toxic stereotypes about sexuality and masculinity which underlay a lot of modern adult men's issues with expressing their emotions and having genuinely close and open relationships outside of their romantic partners. I've seen fans wonder how heterosexual dudes can watch this show and love the brothers' relationship without seemingly noticing the weird undertones of how claustrophobically intertwined they are, and I think it's very much that when it comes to wanting a fantasy of platonic closeness, they're looking for realism as much as most women reading trashy romance novels are - but that's a whole other digression and this is already too long.

At the end of the day, not only was SPN not created in the cultural context of Very Online Tumbrites in 2023, convinced that nothing should ever be is heterosexual and every fictional story should be about them and what they want? The fact their ostensible original point misses is the real world and most other media of 2023 aren't like that either! Some of these shippers come across like they've literally never seen two adult male friends interact with each other or any actual love stories in media - and it's not just early 2000's television characters getting this treatment from entitled shippers who want to use representation as a weapon against creators as to why they're owed things they absolutely aren't.

[follows-the-bees]

There are some legit things that need critiqued/discussed with the show, particularly the second season. I have talked about several of these many times.

And I know that for many, these things outweigh the good, and may cause one to not be able to watch the show right now. I remember after SPN's terrible finale, I couldn't watch the show for months, until I listened to a podcast and talked to people and started to fall in love with it again.

I had the opposite reaction to OFMD, and even with the critiques and issues, I still love the show. And while I'm mad it didn't get to finish it's run, I am also grateful that it didn't end at season one. I love that Ed and Stede are together (I wish we could see them work and talk everything out, actually get to see them be a couple) and that the crew is together. Captain Frenchie! I love that they are on their way to defeat the colonizers, that the toxic ways of piracy are behind and instead they set sail to a golden sunset. To a new day.

I hope that the people who are still feeling down, get the closure they need. This show is so loving, kind, and compassionate, and I hope that on others.

[lol-jackles]

Does anyone else think that Kripke is an immature dude bro with an ego the size of Texas, who writes stores vilifying “toxic” masculinity just so he can get away with writing characters who say and do shitty things without getting the woke police set on his ass? Is it just me?

Kripke has always been this way. He was “too problematic” for Supernatural and “too PC” for The Boys because he treats both set of fans the same. Kripke successfully painted SPN fangirls as crazy that shouldn’t be listened to.  And now he’s doing the same to The Boys fans by painting them as bigoted neckbeards that no one should listen to in order to justify away all criticism because he can't handle any legit criticism. Writers like this become what they’ve previously mocked in the past, so Kripke is becoming Vought and focusing on popularity and projections.

[aliusfrater]

my fav part about how long spn is that it went on long enough for sam & dean to switch places as the main character and it really cemented the toxicity of their relationship because of how much agency whoever is considered the main character within a moment is robbed of because of the amount of control the other is given when it comes to the main brother's fate. like sam had so little control over his fate, right up until it comes to a head when dean literally manipulates him out of Death's (capital d) hands simply because he wouldn't be able to live without sam which tosses the plot onto dean and how the amount of control dean has over his life affects sam but then once they reach relative neutrality, dean gains the mark of cain and suddenly the thought of losing dean propels the plot into the direction of sam working to keep dean alive, and id say that by doing so sam rips dean's agency from him but dean had straight up given up at that point. dean practically set his agency down on a table in the open and sam snatches it up before it could even touch its surface. there's something else to be said about dean doing everything to control sam's fate with the intent of doing what's best for sam but it coming out as the selfish needs of a little boy craving his brother's companionship and sam picking up the pace right beside dean once dean isn't able to walk fast enough to be in front of sam anymore

[sammygender]

Choose violence ask game. 16 and 21. ❤️

ask game

thank u sm for enabling me to be a hater

16. you can't understand why so many people like this thing

well dstiel obviously though i do understand why people like it so much. it's because they're stupid.

aside from that.. oh wait this one is so random and no hate whatsoever (in fact only love) to people who like it but i don't really like transmasc dean in a canon setting. as an au it's incredibly interesting but i see it as occupying similar space to a cis girl dean au in a way where it definitely is..... an AU. in canon like. yeah no. that's NOT a trans guy im sorry. trans guys can be annoying dont get me wrong. but you'd have to be VERY special to be annoying the way he is. also he wouldnt transition for ages cause hes dean winchester and he likes to conform to and in fact play up his expected role. so he certainly wouldve not transitioned in the canon when we see him.

i dont feel this way at all about transmasc sam however. he'd be the same pretty much. as would transfem sam who we all know i adore. anyway i'll probably change my mind in a week and get obsessed with transmasc dean and post 20 times in a row about it and you are all allowed to pelt me with rocks.

21. part of canon you think is overhyped

this was surprisingly hard. in the interest of being interesting and not just going for 'destiel' or something, i'm actually going to say kripke era. it IS my favourite era!! its objectively the best in terms of writing, atmosphere, plot, characterisation. like no contest, obviously. in fact when i recommend the show to people i tell them just to watch the first 5 seasons (while planning on baiting them into continuing after swan song by going 'but its suchhh a bad ending for sam :(( dont you want to see what happens next.....').

so i use 'overhyped' very loosely to mean that despite me recognising it as objectively superior to the rest of the show, i don't actually hugely enjoy a lot of it that much more than i enjoy later on? a lot of my favourite parts of supernatural are heavily built on in the later seasons, or even introduced then. sam & lucifer's cage dynamic and everything resulting from it. the gadreel violation and in fact most of sam's..... everything. ofc this is all present in kripke and it's explored much Better and thematically and gothically and its just more atmospheric and intentional-seeming. whereas late seasons is kind of like this hodge-podge by different writers where you get these insane and intentional gems amid a bunch of white noise. but i just.... im a late seasons kind of person!! i loved buffy s6!! i enjoy works jumping the shark and i enjoy what art becomes when it already has so much to build on. shrug emoji.

like. ok. what first made me compulsively obsessive over supernatural (after the dean daddy issues, which i HAVE to admit hooked me........this is why im the ultimate critique of deangirls, because i was one for 3 seasons <3) was sam & azazel, the metaphor & violation present in his whole demon blood storyline. obvi this is kripke era. and i have to give kripke era credit for it. but a lot of what i consider fundamental to sam & this theme of uncleanliness especially in regards to assault and violation in some way is just soo built on post kripke. his cage trauma in s7. 8x21's "i'm not clean" speech. every compounding incident that happens to sam and his body, from gadreel possession to chuck in s15................

BASICALLY this is to say not that kripke era is really overrated but that so much credit is given to it at the expense of late seasons, when the domestic horror, cycle-of-abuse-sitcom, gabriel's tv show style thing it becomes is actually such a huge part of my enjoyment of spn. and wow i never thought i would be saying this. but i watched riverdale so idk what i was expecting. sigh. but really. what other show is giving us toxic polycule made up of brothers and an Angel of God coparenting the devil's child... also the devil happens to be brother #1's (sam is brother #1) abusive ex.... and hes currently fighting the polycule for custody rights. also the kid was born last week and hes 15. like sorry this is so fundamental to my supernatural. i could never rewatch and stop at s5. i rewatch late seasons eps all the time. ALSO LATE SEASONS SAM WINCHESTER. LIKE. COME ON. EARLY SEASONS SAM IS OVERRATED COMPARED TO LATE SEASONS. <3

[laf-outloud]

If anyone wants receipts, here's the article where they mention the cast and crew of The Winchesters working while sick (as well as working long hours).

[dotthings]

Jared stans who continue to be hateful, unreasonable, incapable of reason, who keep lying, gaslighting, and playing victim while being bullies: reap what you sow. Nothing changes the truth of what you are or what you are doing. spn is going to spn despite you, people will love what they love despite you. What really sets your hair on fire is that you have no control here, don't belong here, that you aren't fans, except for the cult of Jared, and you can't stand that people noticed, call you out, or simply refuse to have anything to do with you and your relentless and ceaseless toxicity and hatred. Go find some other fandom to terrorize and abuse and poison, you aren't welcome here.

[unforth]

h-how is someone into wincest also an anti i. the sheer cognitive dissonance involved

well, to be clear, Kelios isn't the kind of anti that says "no dark content ever!" she's the kind of anti that says "I hate THAT SPECIFIC OTHER THING so much that I'm going to be awful about it all the time." So she's anti-Destiel, and anti-Castiel, and in the same way that people in MDZS are anti-Jiang Cheng and just can't engage with the fandom in any normal way as a result of how virulently they hate That One Guy.

Like iirc it was Kelios and her friends who spent cumulatively thousands of dollars to go to a con and get a big group photo op with Misha Collins, the actor who plays Castiel, just so they could make him hold a sign about how much he sucks and use that to be rude and humiliating about a whole-ass REAL PERSON on the internet...because they didn't like Castiel and Destiel.

She's also an RPF tin-hatter for the actors of the incest ship (Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles, the ship is usually called J2). Like she literally hates Misha Collins...because he's in the way...of her RPF ship that she believes is real...

Like. It's genuinely hard to understate how truly unhinged Kelios is, which is why Bobo Berens taking her down was so so so lovely.

(to be clear: I don't care of people ship incest ships - I literally ship incest too... - and I don't care of people ship rpf - it squicks me but don't like, don't read - but like. This is the kind of person who deliberately set out to befriend the cast and crew while being this unhinged, who truly thinks that the actors' wives are beards and the actors are a thing, and who has bullied countless real life people INCLUDING THE LITERAL ACTORS AND CAST AND CREW because reality didn't match their delusions. Like. Kelios is batshit. Kelios is so well-known for being batshit that the writer replied and then the post did numbers on Twitter and Tumblr so that all the people who knew Kelios was batshit could delight in watching her get told to stfu by someone with the authority to say that to her in a way that would infuriate her instead of being something she could laugh at and ignore. Like, fuck bullying, but she brought this on herself.)

(tl:dr, if you have any interest in SPN at all, please block Kelios on every platform - regardless of what you ship - because no one needs that much toxic. You'll be happier and healthier.)

(god I hope I don't get in trouble for posting this, I don't mean it as a call-out post, this is all just. known information about her. except that The Old Lore gets lost and maybe it does need to be said??? idk maybe I shouldn't post it. *sweatdrop*)

[dothwrites]

sam girls look away and do not perceive this post

sam PISSES ME OFF throughout most of s8 because he's just so very childish about benny!

he's mad at dean for keeping benny a "secret" which is RICH of him, considering that sam has kept secrets about his psychic powers, ruby, demon blood, and his soullessness. he really is just a kid mad because because his dad has a new boyfriend.

he sets martin on benny because he has a vendetta and he cannot believe that benny is what dean says he is, and martin almost killed an innocent woman just to "win" his hunt.

meanwhile sam treats dean sending him a spoof text is an UNFORGIVABLE CRIME™ like he's never done anything bad ever.

i just find it very obnoxious. and it does very much feel like they're trying to manufacture tension between the brothers for drama's sake because the writers weren't able to conceive of how to make spn interesting without having ~drama~ between sam and dean

and then sam gives dean his ultimatum of "it's either him or me" which is about the height of the toxic relationship. god forbid dean has friends

[deaneverafter]

Literally cannot with so-called "Jensen fans" who will spend all day, every day, obsessing over "the coven", a dozen people who while vile, ultimately have zero reach and can really do nothing to affect Jensen, while ignoring (or worse, defending and befriending) heller cult, who say the same exact toxic things, but more often than that, much worse things, about Jensen. But haha, it's okay because they said they love him, so it makes it okay, doesn't it? Call him ugly, this phobic, that phobic, but end it all with "but I love him, haha", "I say this hateful manifesto with the utmost love, because I want to FIX him", but it's all fine, them saying THE worst things about him. All thousands and thousands of them, and their multiple accounts, spamming every account and post, showing up for every project he does to cause drama, embarrass him. But a handful of bullies that only get any traction when someone else is obsessing over them, now that is the real threat 🙄 That, and apparently, if you hate Jared, it's fine, you can do whatever you want, say whatever gross, damaging things about Jensen, and it's all okay, because "they're on our side" (spoiler alert, they very much are not). And lastly, it's the whole "I haven't seen them say anything bad about Danneel, so they're good in my books". That seems to really set off some "fans". Because when tinhatters or antis say Danneel treats Jensen like garbage, they call that bad behaviour. But when the hellers say the same exact things, Danneel has him worshipping at her feet, Danneel thinks he's nothing, Danneel loves Misha more than she loves him, Danneel's main priority is deathstiel, Danneel wants to force Jensen to bang Misha, they act as if it's all good stuff, yass, Queen. Even though, if true, it would actually be incredibly toxic and downright abusive. But they praise it, and I suppose, that's good enough? As long as you hate Jared, love Danneel and use her to put Jensen down, you can say whatever you want about Jensen, attack him in any way, without any repercussions. Such "Jensen fans" will have your back! Do also notice that every drama, every "controversy" that has come Jensen's way these past couple of years, it came from heller fam and Misha, it wasn't the haters who admit they're haters (despite their best efforts to damage Jensen and his career, they just don't have it), it was the snakes in the grass. Even a huge portion of the things those antis accuse him of, criticize him for, those "social justice issues" come from hellers (for example, their tantrums about the con photographers, calling him a predator, thief, etc. That was hellers who started that, the haters, "the coven" just saw the opportunity and continued it). If you were actually a Jensen fan, that should be the most important thing to think about, protecting him, not about fighting Jared stans, not about backing up "supernatural fam" (wtf even is that, other than a bunch of opportunists leeching off Jensen?). Of course, at the end of the day, everyone's allowed to care about what they want. All I wish is for people to not be hypocrites and put their money where their mouth is. Like, absolutely call out the weirdo haters and tinhatters, etc. But if you actually care about Jensen, have the same energy with hellers and Misha stans being disgusting as well

The priority shouldn't be whether "spn fam" is being overhyped, their importance to the Supernatural story or the show's legacy being overstated. Especially when they've shown they really don't care about Jensen, they don't see him as a friend or even a coworker they respect, Misha and the rest only see him as a way to gain clout, habitually use him to get attention for themselves, to make themselves less irrelevant for just a bit. The priority shouldn't just be is Danneel being worshipped blindly or "respected" (because let's be real, the things hellers say don't exactly paint a pretty picture. Hellers only think they're singing praises, because anything they can use to mock or demean Jensen is a good thing in their books), while Jensen gets treated like a leper, a loser, no biggie. The priority should be, at the very least, is Jensen being treated like a person, being afforded basic human respect. The priority should be, what can I do so people who enjoy mocking him, insulting him, spreading gross rumours about him, don't feel welcome to stick around, so they're not hurting him and his career. It shouldn't be let's defend and befriend them