#to think that anything about the way they wrote dean was heterosexual

[marmarbinx]

you know I used to make fun of supernatural fans for being delusional about ships and queerbaiting and stuff and then I finally watched the damn thing in 2023 and I was like oh ok

[the-weary-wayward-son]

Let me tell you a sweet little story about me and the two Supernstural ships that most people argue about but that both have a place in my heart and in my mind.

Dean and Cas were my first gay ship, and that in itself has changed me fundamentally as a human being. My first ever fics I wrote when I was eleven were about them. Destiel made me realize, right from season four, that a relationship between two men can (and often is) so much more interesting and complex than any potential heterosexual relationships either of the men could have with a female counterpart. We all know very well the argument of “if Castiel was a woman, there would’ve been immediate romance, but she would get killed off by the end of the season because the fans would hate the relationship”.

I used to watch that™️ scene of Cas pushing Dean up against a wall on repeat and hide my search history from my mother. It made me feel so many things all at once, and as a kid that was way too young to watch the show it the first place, I knew nothing about what they were and what to do with them. Slowly, over the years, I began piecing them together into a more comprehensive understanding, and as the seasons were coming out, one after the other, until the very end, I shipped Destiel somewhere deep in my heart. I stopped actively watching the show on season 12-13, it my feelings towards the ship remained, and they were so deeply engraved within me by that point that it felt like watching Supernatural and not shipping Destiel was like not watching the show to begin with. That being said, I’ll never forget the day that I logged into tumblr for my main blog, and saw Destiel trending. Never in my life have I said “what the fuck???” louder than I have on November 5th.

So that was that, Destiel was cannon? After all these years, after all the (sub)text and the eye contact, and the sacrifices made for each other, Destiel was cannon? We didn’t get Dean saying the words back, let alone a kiss or anything, because CW are mentally stuck in the twelve hundreds, but we got a confession, did we not?

We did, and it felt so anticlimactic that the entirety of the world now gets the news about the latest events through an outlet that should’ve been the end of an era. The confession that hundreds of thousands of people were waiting and hoping for was supposed to be impactful, gut-wrenching and tragic, because that’s what Supernatural has always been about. Most importantly, it was supposed to be closure. It was supposed to feel like it really was the end, which is understandably a very hard thing to achieve in a show where all the main characters have died and resurrected about fifty times.

That is what we did not get. An end to Cas and Dean, to their incredible story that we followed for eleven (11) years. Watching Dean sit in that room with his head in his hands and knowing that that was it, that that was the end of their relationship, felt like someone grabbed me by the neck and pushed my faced under water, holding me there just until I started suffocating, and then just let me go. A sudden, painful and lowkey traumatizing experience that, in the end, amounted to nothing. I felt cheated twice — CW decided to break my heart with the final moments of a relationship that I carried in my heart for over a decade, and they couldn’t even do that right.

Now let’s get into what usually is the opposing opinion.

First thing’s first — I do not and I have never truly, seriously thought that the show was implying that Sam and Dean were sleeping together. Yes, they give each other weird looks but I honestly never in my life believed that somewhere off-screen, within the show, they are lovers.

However.

Whatever it is that Sam and Dean have, it’s definitely more than brotherly love. I’m not saying it’s romantic love, I don’t think it is, but what I am saying is that their souls are tied together with such a tight and tangled thread, that they are two halves of a whole.

They blur into each other, bleed into each other like aquarelle.

A lot of people that have joined the fandom post 2010 do not realize that before Cas, all they ever had was each other. Losing the other meant losing yourself, and the lines separating them into two different people have blurred so much that the lines of the relationship blurred with them.

I personally have an older brother who is the best man I’ve ever met in this life. Do I love him to death? Yes. Would I die and kill for him? He would never let me but yes. Would I, however, offer up my soul to bring him back if he were to die prematurely? No.

The Winchester brothers do it so much that Dean has turned it into a hobby.

If you review his actions and decisions over the seasons, you’ll realise at one point that while Sam managed to live (no matter how dreadfully) without Dean between seasons three and four, Dean cannot live without him.

He is not just striking up deals with higher powers and/or demons, he’s not making sacrifices, he’s killing himself because he physically cannot fucking live without his younger brother.

Seeing what a horrible father John had always been to them, they only had each other to trust, to seek comfort in, to protect and to get protected by. I will never get tired of watching the way they instinctually reach for each other when it seems like everything is coming to an end. In the final moments, they always, always strive to meet them as a whole.

And the way their story ends is, if we take into account everything above, so much more impactful. One last death, and of course it’s Dean, protecting Sam like he always has. They reach for each other, like they’ve always done, and the scene is a gut-wrenching mirror of their first scene together. It was that mirror, the story finally coming its full, inevitable circle, that ripped my heart right out of my chest and then patted my cheek with the bloody hand, asking if I was really expecting a happy ending. Supernatural has always been about tragedy, and the relationship between Sam and Dean has always been about damnation.

The absolute desperation of them trying to save each other and not realising that they are two inseparable, twisted parts of a whole will never not fuck me up.

[aoitrinity]

Why Do I Have to Feel Like a Fucking Conspiracy Theorist -- OR -- How I Find a Semblance of Peace on Sunday Night

I’m also going to start this out with a GIANT DISCLAIMER.

I am about to theorize about what may have happened to the SPN finale. I have absolutely no insider knowledge. I am merely speculating here based on the panels and a bunch of Twitter and Tumblr posts that I have been reading over the last few days. If you are not in a good place to read such things, TURN BACK PLEASE. Go take care of yourself and your mental health. You and your feelings are valid and deserve to be handled gently right now.

Additionally, if you are here to give me shit for being unhappy with the ending, please walk away as well. I am here to reach out and share my feelings with people who might be struggling to make sense of something that upset some of us in very deep-seated ways. I am not here to bother you or critique you or tell you that you’re lesser because you liked the ending. If you felt it was good, then go enjoy it.

Long-ass post beneath the cut, everyone.

Alrighty folks...I debated whether or not to do this because I have been spiraling down the hell that is the SPN finale since Thursday. The travesty of what happened to our show--to this beloved show that seemed to have been so perfectly and precisely written for at least four years that it had basically already paved its own tarmac on which to land its plane and we all thought we knew exactly what we were going to get. And then we didn’t. We had a nigh Cas-less and entirely Eileen-less ending. We had no goodbye between Cas and Jack. We had Dean dying young after finally finding his freedom, only to ascend to heaven with no one but Bobby. We had the weird, weird, weird incest-y death scene. We had the bridge crane shot thing because...sure. You do you, Robert Singer.

It was so terrible, so truly awful, and I couldn’t seem to square any of it with anything we had known going in. I tossed and turned and cried and didn’t eat or sleep all weekend. I spent hours just reloading tumblr and twitter, going to the Misha panel, reading and reading and listening and trying to figure out what the fucking hell is going on because I needed to know exactly where to direct my anger. And after a fuckton of talking with @winchester-reload, I think we have at least a very plausible theory about what happened here--I’m laying it out below as much for my own peace of mind as anything else, because otherwise all of these thoughts are going to continue to spin around in my head for weeks and I won’t be able to do jack shit.

Now to start off, unfortunately I do think Dean was slated to die from the beginning of this season. I don’t know WHY they thought that was the best way to go, and I wish they had listened to Jensen on this one. Part of me wonders if it was an order from on high based on the discussion between Becky and Chuck earlier this season--the writers knew it wasn’t a great choice, but they were trying to signal to us that we should feel free to write our own endings to the story because they’d be better (I can wax poetic on the signs of why many of the writers probably wanted Dean to live, but that’s another post). I’m not defending that choice by any means, just laying it out there that I think they didn’t necessarily all want to kill Dean like they did.

However, what I THINK I can explain now is what happened with Misha and why we got so jerked around with Cas’s story. Consider what we know (I can’t immediately source all of it, but I did my best):

At the end of episode 15x19, Lucifer has been returned to the Empty after being killed AGAIN. He talks with Cas. Maybe harasses him a bit about Dean, idk. But then...Jack shows up. New God Jack. And he picks up Cas and pulls him out of the Empty, leaving Lucifer behind, because seriously. Fuck that guy (also leaving behind his abusive father is character growth for Jack, so yay for that).

-Misha was contracted to film 15 episodes this season. He was only in 14.

-Misha told Michael Sheen he had to go back to film 1.5 episodes after the shutdown in March. (Starts at 6:13)

-Misha was in Vancouver during filming of the finale.

-Mark P said at Darklight Con that the last scene he filmed was with Alex and Misha (and Mark P was only in episode 19).

-Misha implied that he was present for various filming moments, including Dean’s death (start at 35:15), and said that it felt like a “mini-reunion.”

-Various sources have mentioned that Jimmy Novak was supposed to be in the finale.

-After episode 18, Stands tweeted a fan who was angered and hurt by Cas's death that they could talk about the “bury the gays” issue after the finale aired.

-In episode 19 we know there were takes of the parking lot scene where the only thing fans observing could hear was Dean yelling “CAS” at Chuck (fuck I can’t find this one right now, but it’s definitely out there)

-Also in episode 19, we had a very strange, awkward montage at the end of the episode.

-In episode 20, we know there were a FUCKTON of missing scenes

-We also had no opening montage, but three other separate montages.

-Carry on My Wayward Son was played TWICE, back-to-back at the end of the episode.

-Episode 20 was shorter than normal and had surprisingly little dialogue. The pacing was VERY strange.

-The cast and crew has been almost completely silent about the finale since it came out. When they have spoken, it has been with an awkward excuse of “Uh...COVID?”

-Samantha Ferris has specifically noted that, despite the Harvelle’s being back in play and a big heaven reunion having been planned pre-COVID, neither she nor Chad Lindberg received any such invitation to return.

-Cas and Dean POP Funko figures were pictured together in a replica of Harvelle’s in 15x04.

NOW with all of this in mind (and I’m probably missing some stuff too because there is so much--feel free to add on to that list), please bear with me because here is what I think we were SUPPOSED to get POST-COVID (after it was determined that the reunion couldn’t happen because of the virus):

In episode 20, we start with our NORMAL OPENING MONTAGE, like always. It traces everything that happened during the season. We are reminded of Cas. The confession. Rowena. Eileen. Jack. Billie, God, the Empty, all of it. 

Things then follow along in the episode where they did up until Dean dies and wakes up in heaven. After his conversation with Bobby, he drives off to find Cas (who, in the script, was listed as “Jimmy Novak” in order to protect against script leaks--who wouldn’t want to do their best to avoid spoilers about the finale with the wrapping of a fifteen-year show?). He does indeed find Cas. We get Dean’s end of the confession. Hell, maybe we even get a kiss. And then Dean sets up his new heaven home in the recreated Harvelle’s. Maybe Cas even fucking moves in. 

Years pass. We get Sam having his life on Earth (still can’t explain why they cut Eileen and couldn’t even have Sam signing vaguely to the blurry brunette in the background; if anyone wants to take that on, go for it). Eventually, Cas tells Dean that it’s almost Sam’s time. Dean takes Baby and goes to meet Sam at the bridge. The cover of Carry on My Wayward Son plays during this much shorter sequence. End of episode.

But that’s not what we got. Instead, much of what I just wrote about was excised from the episode. The remnants were stitched together after shooting had been wrapped. Filler was added in the form of montages and long, unnecessary extra shots to get the episode to something approaching a reasonable length. 

But why? Why would they spend all that time and money and quarantining on Misha, only to almost completely cut him out of the finale? I struggled with why the fuck the CW would want this mammoth show to go down as the greatest queerbait in TV history when they had the chance to do something truly beautiful and monumental with it? It couldn’t just be sheer homophobia, right? Well, I think that factored into it, my friends, but here is where my head is at right now.

It was about cold, hard cash.

Now I could be wrong, but this is what I’m thinking at the moment: Supernatural is going off of the air. Supernatural, the CW’s cash cow for fifteen years. Sure there is still money to be made on blu-rays and merchandise and cons...but they need people watching their shows. They need that sweet advertising revenue. And you know what show they have about to premiere? A show that could, potentially, bring with it a chunk of that SPN revenue?

Walker.

And if any of you know anything about the original Walker Texas Ranger, you know that the show was predominantly a show about a very heterosexual white man being very excessively heterosexual. And for SOME REASON over the years, many of the execs at the CW still seem to think that this show, Supernatural, is really attractive to a lot of middle-American white men...whom they desperately want to watch this new show with this guy from Supernatural that they already know.

Now here’s where COVID fucked us. I think Destiel was greenlit by TPTB, at least in SOME form, before COVID. But then the pandemic happened, and they panicked. They got the cut of the last two episodes and watched them in their original, probably queer form. And then, the execs at CW looked at the economy. They looked at their cash cow, about to make its journey to the great beyond. And they looked at this new little calf Walker that they were so desperately worried about. And they made a choice.

They decided that it would be too risky to take the step with Destiel. They were worried about frightening off their ever-so-valuable hetero male demographic with the possibility that a traditionally masculine man in his 40s could be in love with another man in an overt way. It was homophobia mixed with greed, spun up by fear for their revenues because of COVID.

So they called in Singer, possibly Dabb, although I wouldn’t be surprised if they went straight to Singer. They told them that Destiel had to go: executive orders. And the only way to make it go in a way that removed any trace of what had been there was to rewrite what happened to Cas and cut him out from the last two episodes entirely. It was too late to reshoot anything. They had to just cut and stitch and fill with bullshit montages. 

They removed the scene at the end of 19, probably because Cas and Lucifer discussed Dean. All that was left of Misha there was his voice on that fake phone call. They may have cut other things too, but I would bet my life that they cut a scene from the end of the episode and replaced it with that very strange montage. Then they moved onto 20. They cut out every scene with Cas. And left in only two platonic mentions of him, neither made by Dean. They tried to imply that Cas might show up in Dean’s heaven at some point, but that was as far as the editors could go in the time they had. They filled in with montages, awkwardly long shots, anything they could do to fill all of those missing scenes.

And they even had to take the opening montage, because literally everything in it pointed to Cas being there at the end of it all. They wouldn’t be able to leave out his scenes, they were too critical to the season. They couldn’t cut his confession without raising eyebrows. So they cut the whole thing and moved “Carry On My Wayward Son” to one of the newly-added driving montages at the end. Which is why we awkwardly had both songs play back-to-back--again, such a strange choice unless they were out of options and couldn’t exactly buy rights to a new track or compose anything else.

And so we were left with the shadow of the finale that we deserved, that Cas and Dean deserved. We were left without resolution or happiness or words. Bobo told us the most important thing about happiness is just “saying it” and our characters were silenced without anyone ever knowing the truth.

I think the writers might have known and been given the new party line that “Misha never filmed, he couldn’t, sorry, it was COVID, no one’s fault!” But I don’t think most of the cast even knew it had happened until they watched the finale on Thursday with us (though they might have been confused why the bit from 15x19 was sliced, they could reasonably have assumed it was a time thing and also BL episodes don’t make sense anyway). Why do I say that?

Well, first of all, Misha started sending out a bunch of excited texts to fans with some old BTS pictures about an hour before the show started airing on EST. He also wanted his children to see the episode, his YOUNG children. Why would he show them such a traumatic episode if their Dad wasn’t in it? What if it was because he wanted them to witness what was going to be a monumental moment in queer television history that their DAD got to be a part of? And then that was all dashed.

Which is why I think the cast and crew went almost completely radio silent the next day. I don’t think they knew. And based on how they have been acting on social media since then, I think many of them are absolutely furious, but they have been silenced because of NDAs, because they want to find work again in a cutthroat industry, because they don’t want to bring down the hellfire of Warner Brothers Entertainment upon themselves. So the most we have gotten is a little acknowledgement from the MERCHANDISING COMPANY trying to validate our pain (god bless Shirts, she is a LIFESAVER) and a response to my salty tweet about keeping good stuff in the closet from Adam Williams (the VFX coordinator) that seemed to acknowledge the validity of my complaint.

Then there was a scramble behind the scenes, I would bet my life. Talking points were fed to the boys who had panels today, to CE, to all the cast and crew:

Toe the party line. Misha never filmed. This was always about COVID. Do not mention Destiel. Do not mention Dean’s feelings for Cas. Do not promote the Castiel Project or anything that validates the idea that this was anything less than a superb ending.

And that is why we have heard so little from the cast on this front, and what we have heard has been muddled and contradictory. That is why the writers are saying nothing. That is why we have been left adrift.

Now before I close this out, I do want to say that I really, genuinely do not think this was on the writers at all. I feel like they tried to give us the best ending that they could, in a writers room that we know is notorious for splitting along party lines about the overall story (BL and Singer, who have always been about the brothers and their man-pain vs. Dabb and the rest who always seemed to want more for them and for Cas). I think they did everything in their power to at least end with Dean and Cas happy together. If they could give us nothing else, they wanted to give us that. And then the network took it from them. From us. From everyone.

For the sake of fucking money. 

And the WORST PART OF IT ALL, for me, is that in the wake of this disaster, the fans have been left to try and figure out what happened. We have had to wade through a mire of conflicting information in the midst of all of our collective anger and grief over this garbage ending of a show many of us have loved and even relied on for YEARS, all the while wondering if we’re just fucking crazy, if we have all fallen collectively into the hole of conspiracy theories. That hurts ESPECIALLY badly because we have taken so many hits over the years from other groups on social media saying we were crazy for seeing things that weren’t there (especially Destiel), for writing meta and analyzing tropes and believing the evidence of our eyes and ears. The network has made us relive that entire nightmare WHILE processing our grief for a show we wanted so badly to celebrate and which instead we now have to mourn.

So again guys, I cannot prove that this is exactly what happened at all; this is simply my idea of what may have happened. But right now, it’s the most sense I can make from this mess, and to be honest, the act of typing it out has helped me enormously in my processing of it all. I feel like I can see more clearly, like I know where to target my outrage and where to direct empathy. I feel like just fucking maybe, I might be able to do my job tomorrow without bursting into tears at random moments. 

I really hope that this post has helped some of you to, in some small way, process this too. We get through this the way that Misha told us at his panel this morning, the way the writers have told us to do all season long...we throw out the story God gave us and we make it better. We write our characters the happy endings they deserve. 

We save them.

One last thing--if you have not already, please consider channeling your rage into a donation to one of the five causes our fandom has put together to pay tribute to our beloved show and to mourn the ending it should have had:

-The Castiel Project

-Dean Winchester is Love

-Sam Winchester Project

-The National Association of the Deaf

-The Jack Kline Project

[deanwasalwaysbi]

I've gotta say, I find the concept of Bedlund trying to Ben-Hur Jensen absolutely hysterical. I'm just imagining Jensen getting a script and being like "Ben?? What's this? Is this gay? This seems gay????" and Ben just soothing him like a frightened horse.

Hahaha - Look it wouldn't be the first time. What is this verb we're working with? Okay. Strap in everyone. The Multi-Oscar-winning 1959 movie 'Ben Hur' had a bunch of gay subtext. The writer, the director, and the second lead actor all knew that Charlton Heston's character, Ben Hur, was gay. However, one person didn't find out until the 1990s: Charlton Heston. The consensus on set was "Don’t tell Charlton, because he’ll freak out." and when Heston found out in the ninties, freak out was exactly what he did. (x) [the movie may have gotten a reference from Misha back in season 6 (x)]

Whether this happened with Jensen on SPN depends on two things.

Was the character of Dean intentionally written as Bi and, if so, at what point did that become true?

Did anyone tell Jensen? Did he figure it out? if so, when?

I personally DO believe at this point, I really do, that Bedlund - Ben Hur'd Jensen. I think it was part of the writers room but not all of it, until it was. (Which RN I believe finally happened under Dabb.) I think Jensen wasn't in on it, until he was. So for me? I think he really was in the dark at one point. But at what point that changed? Probably only he can answer that question. and RN? He ain't talking.

In the meantime we can only look at things Jensen has said on the subject - Like this unbearably ambiguous GIF set from @nikadd. Was this tongue in cheek? Legitimate ignorance? You're killing me, Jensen. That cheeky lil smile, Jensen. Nvm - I'm going to kill you instead. It's for my own survival. No hard feelings right? You understand.

UH OH HERE COMES A CUT TO HIDE A LONG DERANGED POST...

We can look at the text for number 1 - and I do that uh - a lot - see the blog name #Dean Was Always Bi

For number 2 we can look over some points when we got clues from what Jensen thought was going on [regardless of whether they make sense based on his jacting or directorial choices I guess] and get left wondering whether at any point he felt pressured to lie for his career, for self protection, or to protect the narrative from the network: 

2010 - 'We're missing the gay angel' (x) (Season 5 gag reel) (x) “Sorry man, not what the show’s about.” Jared: One of the good and bads about playing the straight [non-comedic] character on the show… Jensen: What wait? I’ve been playing him so wrong

2012 / S8 - Trenchcoat - Jensen talking about how sometimes they change the lines because they're way too gay. Calls Cas a third brother

2012 - "What's Destiel?" Ben Edlund: That’s some weird shit. Jensen: Is this something that you created, Ben? Ben: You don’t want any part of that.

“Don’t ruin it for everyone now” “I still don’t know what the question was. I’m going to pretend I don’t know what the question was.”

2013 @ JIB, re Dean’s reaction to Aaron’s flirting in the season 8 episode Everybody Hates Hitler,  (x)

“And the scene wasn’t written to be that kind of - I mean - It was written to be awkward.  Ben Edlund wrote the - my favorite line in that scene was ‘carry on . citizen’ that was - I almost couldn’t say that with a straight face I was laughing so hard.  But it was - you know - it was comedy. It was a comedic moment in the show and fortunately Dean gets a lot of the comedic moments in the show and it was just, you know, Ben was poking fun at the fact that - you know, how can we make this very kind of manly, heterosexual guy uncomfortable - uh -you know, or  or have him back on his heels and throw him off his game a little bit.”

The thing is - Bedlund and Phil Sgriccia made very clear on the commentary track that THEY saw this scene as a 'romantic comedy kind of fluster' "This potential for love in all places."

Ben Edlund calling the writer’s room a boy’s club in 2013 (x)

Misha Collins telling Destiel fans they aren’t Crazy in 2013 after some executives said they were (x).

2014 Jensen says he was glad there wasn’t much Dean and Cas in season 9  - HA Hah HAH (x)

“I think the whole Cas and Dean thing has gotten out of hand”  “I don’t think there’s anything secret to their relationship even though a lot of people wish there was” REMINDER - that season we got the nightstands acknowledgement and “play him like a jilted lover” and the “he dumped me James” cut and -

I certainly know that Misha and I don’t play that. SIGH. they Ben Hur'd Jensen.

2014 - the fan fiction joke - 10.05

“I didn’t have a positive reaction, The first time in I think 200 scripts I went and sat down in the showrunners office and said, ‘What in god’s name are you doing?! Why? I need to understand why this is happening.’” “[Carver] gave very eloquent answers and did a great job of explaining why we were doing what we were doing, I guess I had been aware of this ‘fan fiction’ for a while and I felt like maybe if I ignored it, it would eventually go away. When I read it in the script that is what I do for a living and is my work—I’m very protective of these characters and the story and I think we have a right to be—I wasn’t angry. I just wanted to understand why and what was the message we were ultimately sending with this script and story. By the end of it, I felt good and it gave me all the confidence I needed. It was better than I could have ever hoped.”

But then there's Jensen in 2015 talking about all of Dean’s bromances. (x)  [gifs at the top] Could go either way - starting to figure it out? or No?

What had changed if anything? the entire Crowely season 10 story line?  This was July 2015 - the same day as the SDCC 2015 panel where Misha talked about Destiel   (x @ 13) Carver and Dabb were there - 

By this time Jensen and Misha were nominated for a teen choice award for best chemistry against various tv couples (and one ensemble cast, but the award nomination did NOT include Jared) .... Misha and Jensen would go on to WIN this award one month after the panel.

At the Panel Rob and Rich ask the question: “You two have branded yourselves as TV’s greatest team since, ... idk who.... Ernie and Bert so.”  [Misha says to Jensen & Jared, half not on the microphone: “I really didn’t expect them to throw us under the bus.”] “are we going to see that continue? Is the Castiel Dean relationship still aflutter and still growing as we move into season 11?”  Jeremy Carver: “Ish.” [mocking from panel ensues] “Yes. Of course. I mean Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There’s no doubt.”

Jensen Directs 11x03 and the choreo mimics Goodbye stranger (x)

2016 - Jensen: Dean could have a huntress, but you’d kill her.

Jan 2017 Con the infamous - no hedge - harsh - “Destiel doesn’t exist.” (x)

I would hope that if he knew he wouldn’t have been so harsh with it.  So by that point either he still didn’t know - OR - to him ‘Destiel’ was specifically about internet porn/sex and not like - the potential for feelings / a relationship.  It makes me think about something Misha had actually said, around 2013, “It’s called ‘Destiel’ and it’s about the romantic interludes between Dean and Castiel.” (x)

2017 - jib8 Jensen called Dean a lover of the ladies

May 2017 - After filming the end of season 12:

2018 - Misha confirms he and Jensen have talked about Destiel (x) - also 2018: The Bisexual Dean essay "? No." (Oh god was this really this recent?! I can't deal with this.)

Well. SOMETHING happened in 2019. cuz here it comes

2019 - "Dean has no taste, clearly." 2019 - 'So, tell us just a little bit about what you're most excited to tackle with your character this final season.' "Cas. Just like a full football form tackle."

Look at this face he gave Dean when Cas told him he loved him and tell me he wasn't playing into it here. You can't. (x)

[hi-i-love-u-bitch]

LGBTQ+ Harry Potter Headcannons that I say are cannon and JK Rowling can die mad about it 😊

Harry Potter is a disaster bisexual and half Arab on his father’s side

Hermione Granger is Black and pansexual as well as trans (MtF)

Ron Weasley is Asexual/Heteromantic

Ginny is pansexual

Fred and George are raging bisexuals

Literally none of the Weasley children are straight; Bill and Percy are bi and Charlie is gay

Luna Lovegood is a cottage core lesbian and uses They/Them pronouns

Molly Weasley knits Pride flags sweaters for all of her children with their own respective flags, fight me!

Arthur Weasley is very supportive of his children and always makes sure to educate himself (and others) every time he learns something new about the LGBTQ+ community

Draco Malfoy is fucking gay and you can’t change my mind!

Crabbe and Goyle are straight allies

Pansy Parkinson is aromantic/bisexual

Blaise Zabini is demisexual

Neville Longbottom is a soft pansexual ❤

Dean (bi) and Seamus (gay) are dating, fucking deal with it!

Cedric Diggory is a pansexual trans man and EVERY student at Hogwarts was in love with him! Don’t question me!

The only time Harry and Draco WEREN’T bickering (with loads of sexual/romantic tension) was when they were ogaling Cedric and complaining about how hot he was!

Hermione still went with Viktor Krum to the Yule Ball but Ron wasn’t all that bitter about it and instead suggested that he and Harry go as each other’s date. Harry agreed as well as suggested that they bring Luna along with them as well.

Luna was thrilled and accepted their invitation, making all three of them matching corsages and boutonnieres.

Sirius (gay) and Remus (pan) are married but they’re also polyamories so when Remus falls in love with Tonks Sirius is like “go for it dude”. So Remus starts dating Tonks and her and Sirius become good friends and when Remus wants to propose to her after a few years Sirius helps Remus pick out the ring that’ll match both of theirs.

A muggle born student gifts Dumbledore a mini rainbow pride flag and he sticks it on his hat like a feather. He hasn’t taken it off since.

McGonagall is bisexual and helped rally during one of the first pride marches in England back in the 70s

Once Hagrid learns about the LGBTQ+ community from Harry and Co. he asks them if they could get him some flags to hang around his hut so that every student knows it’s a safe place for all.

Hogwarts eventually starts allowing students to stay over the summer months if they have nowhere else to go or if their own home isn’t safe for them.

Harry knew he was bi since he was like 10 but he just didn’t have a word for it until he met Hermione (cuz she was smart and knew a lot of words)

Of course he never told the Dursleys this but one day (he was 14 at the time) he found Dudley crying in his room when he thought no one was home and Harry just had this strange feeling that he should talk to him.

So turns out that Dudley was bi too and he was not processing it as well as Harry did. Harry came out to him which somehow comforted Dudley a lot more than he thought it would; they talked all night long and it was the beginning of them mending their familial relationship with each other into something healthy.

Heromione told Ron and Harry that she was trans during their second year and she was so scared that they would reject her that she cried for a whole hour before being able to say anything properly. Ron and Harry comforted her the entire time and promised her that they would all remain friends no matter what.

After that if anybody even LOOKED at Hermione in any sort of offensive way Ron and Harry would go absolutely feral on their asses

It took a LONG while for Ron to figure out he was Asexual, like he knew that he liked girls he just didn’t wanna…go all the way with them.

He had thought there was something wrong with him because all the guys were always talking about their “experiences” with their partners and how good it was

At first he thought that maybe it was because he unknowingly liked guys but after a few curious make-out sessions with a couple of male class mates at parties he concluded that wasn’t the case. It wasn’t a terrible experience but it just wasn’t his cup of tea.

Eventually he caved and finally talked to Hermione and Harry who were both very patient and gave plenty of helpful advice. So in the end Ron found out that he wasn’t weird he was just asexual.

When Harry and Draco finally start dating every time they see Lucius in their range of sight they start acting obnoxiously couple-y just to piss him off.

Narcissa thinks it’s funny

Dolores Umbridge is a homophobe and everybody hated her even more (including Draco’s gang). This was the moment all four houses came together in perfect harmony and collectively fucked her over.

When Harry was sent to Umbridge’s office for detention and told to write “I must not tell lies” with a black quill he instead looked her straight in the eye and wrote down “raging bisexual” in all caps.

When Draco found this out he fell just a little bit more in love with Harry

During their DADA class as Umbridge was discussing Merlin, Draco made a disagreeable comment which led to a squabble between them. It ended with Draco rolling his eyes and scoffing: “If you honestly think Merlin was even remotely heterosexual then you’re even stupider than I previously though, you mythic bitch!”

The entire class was stun into awed silence and Harry would not stop making obvious heart eyes at Draco for entire week.

After double teaming on a particularly nasty prank on Umbridge, which involved replacing all her cat portraits with worted toads, configuring all her sweets into slugs, hiding spiders and harmless snakes in her desk draws, and changing anything pink in her office to a gross bog water color, Harry and Draco finally got together. They were caught by Umbridge making-out under the stairwell and sent to detention.

She tried to get them expelled for their prank but she didn’t have enough evidence against them to prove that they did it.

(AN: Please add your own headcannons that you think should be cannon ❤I would love to read them❤)

[autisticandroids]

hi i'm trying to keep up on spn fandom drama without actually watching the 6 seasons I don't care enough to watch so could you tell me what on earth "why lamp" means? tysm

ok so this is a long one. 

so the way i see it there are three major pieces of evidence, in the last two seasons, that dean is going to reciprocate. 

i’m not talking about like, evidence that i would use as a textual analyst if the author was dead: if i use everything that looks to ME like dean being queer then i would have mountains. i’m talking three pieces of evidence which i am absolutely convinced were intentional on the part of the people who write the show, meaning that they suggest deancas might actually go canon officially. 

that’s also why i’m only counting the last two seasons; cas made his deal with the empty in early season fourteen and it was definitely intended to come off as romantic. why do i know this? because it has the same goddamn terms and even wording as angel’s curse from buffy: angel experiences “one moment of true happiness” and he loses his soul, cas experiences “one moment where he is truly happy” and he dies. on buffy, angel’s true happiness is..... well.......... sex with buffy. so when i heard the deal i was like hm. at the time i thought they were just fanservice/easter egging me, but now i know better: they intended that. so i think mr. dabb has been planning deancas endgame since at least them lol. i’m pretty sure they knew the show was ending at that point so they could do it.

anyway the first piece of evidence is dean’s michael fantasy in 14x10. this is imo the second strongest. in it, he’s a bartender, accompanied only by a woman he can never sleep with because she has a boyfriend. they flirt endlessly, and she comments “how come you only want what you can’t have” which is a mirror for what cas says in his confession: “the one thing i want, it’s something i know i can’t have.” she also later comments “besides, you don’t want me, you just like to flirt. i’m psychic, i know.” suggesting that dean is faking his interest in her, which could be normal but reads to me as intentionally suggestive that he’s either uninterested in women or simply hung up on someone else. like “dean pretends to be interested in women to show off his flirting game and flex his dudeness muscles” is a subtext that’s present in a huge amount of the show; like, there are a few female love interests he has chemistry with, but mostly his sexcapades read like i-need-to-prove-i’m-manly bedframe notching or showing off for his buddies. this is even explicit-ish a couple of times, like i said in this post here. but they’ve never explicitly pointed it out in words i don’t think. and like. “pretending heterosexuality” is pretty queer lmao (even if dean is bi he’s still faking ultrastraightness to prove he’s manly/straight). 

also, it’s weird as hell that they picked pamela barnes for that scene. she never had a particularly close connection with the boys or anything, why not someone else? but she’s 1) psychic, so she can say that line about dean not wanting her, and 2) much more importantly, she’s intimately associated with cas. like, she first appears in lazarus rising, and she’s the one who gets her eyes burned out looking at cas’ true face. like that’s her biggest deal: Woman Who Got Her Eyes Burned Out To Show How Dangerous Cas Is. and then she died off pretty quickly because she was a woman on spn s4.

also, in the scene, she wears an angel wing necklace and a shirt that says “to hell and back” (pointed out to me in the same post). plus the guy who wrote the episode also wrote lily sunder has some regrets which i hope we can all agree is an ICONIC destiel episode.

the second piece of evidence is the purgatory confession in 15x09. this is the strongest evidence. i don’t really have much to say about it because it’s so blatant? like, when i first saw it, i was literally like “this is intentional deancas fanservice jesus christ.” like i lean towards generally interpreting deancas stuff as an accident on the part of straight writers and the purgatory thing did not feel accidental to me. and then cas cuts dean off at the end of the confession, before dean can say some final thing, and dean looks devastated, and then we never find out what the final thing was. like, it’s pretty blatant.

the third piece of evidence is the lamp dance. this is the weakest of the three. basically, dean has a dream sequence in 15x10 where he dances romantically with a lamp. given that one of the things that’s going on in 15x10 is that dean is realizing that he could be allowed to have domestic bliss, the apple pie life, and still be a hunter. the dance with the lamp does kind of come off like it’s implying that there is a partner shaped hole in his life. he has no female love interest in s15 and he hasn’t for years. here is a really cool, if way too smart for spn, piece of meta about it, and here’s another which is less cool but acknowledges that spn is dumb and doesn’t think that hard and is therefore imo more correct. also, andrew dabb himself wrote the lamp dance episode, which makes it stronger evidence than it would be otherwise imo.

anyway when i was Feeling the Madness on saturday, i decided to make this joke post based on the format of that one alvin and the chipmunks meme, you know, “if women are oppressed then why ___” (i would not suggest looking at it on my actual blog because tragically that breaks the format, open it in dash). i was basically using the lamp dance as slightly-ridiculous synecdoche for all three of these pieces of evidence because it’s the weakest.

then later that day, because i treat my blog as a deeply self-referential internal monologue, i made this post documenting the madness i was experiencing, and i ended it with “then WHY LAMP” as a reference to my earlier post. that one got popular, and now “why lamp” is a common way to refer to the lamp dance meta.

[s11e17]

I just find it sooo insidious when TV show creators say they “didn’t intend” for things to be read in a certain way, as a method of denying queer readings of their work. By virtue of the fact that they’re TV show creators, they literally cannot be correct in claiming this.

For example: I wrote a fanfiction where, at the end, Dean’s bedroom is described as “their [Dean and Castiel’s] room.” I didn’t make the choice consciously to switch from “his” to “their” as the pronoun to describe the room — in fact, I don’t even really remember writing this specific sentence at all. But, a number of readers (I love you!) commented that this pronoun shift reflects the change from the space being Dean’s alone to becoming a shared space.

I really like that reading, and I don’t think it was pure accident, since I was thinking a lot about their relationship when writing this scene — but, that single word choice wasn’t a conscious decision.

On a TV show like Supernatural, way more people are involved than a single grad student writing on their laptop (i.e. me). There are script writers, show producers, episode directors, and actors. There are set designers and costume/makeup artists and camera operators. And, it’s impossible to overstate the influence of post-production editors, sound designers, and score composers.

All of these people work together to produce a single episode to be shown on TV. Does executive show producer Robert Singer or Andrew Dabb really have the authority to say that a reading of his work is “wrong”? Literally hundreds of conscious and unconscious choices are made in each and every scene.

How many queer writers have slipped subtle queer references into their scripts? How many directors have made particular blocking choices to convey queerness when the script doesn’t allow for it? How many sound designers have chosen romantic music or dramatic silence to convey a certain tone?

How many costume designers have made choices to emphasize queer themes (like Castiel’s handprint on Dean’s jacket in S15E18, which adds a textual queer reading to their first meeting in Hell from S04E01)? How many editors have put together scenes to imply queerness (like Castiel’s ambiguously romantic “I love you” from S12E12, which cuts to a close shot of Dean’s face)?

The story isn’t just “anything you make of it.” There is a text, and a subtext, and a cultural context. But, none of those are defined by any individual person — not even in media created by a single author, and certainly not in the case of Supernatural, which is undeniably the work of hundreds of people, who all make conscious choices and act in ways unconsciously influenced by the story, their broader motivations, and the world around them.

Can we really put aside the fact that Supernatural’s aesthetic in the Kripke era was directly influenced by On The Road, a beat-era novel emblematic of suppressed queer themes? It is ahistorical and frankly just plain wrong to claim that Destiel was never canon, to claim that the show was always heterosexual, or to claim that romantic love isn’t part of Supernatural. It is a poor reading of the text as well as a homophobic one.

[roublardise]

my "Crowley isn't attracted to women" take

for @spnprideweek - day 2 - mlm

cw: dicussion of homophobia & transphobia all in all I wanted to highlight how canon gay Crowley is bc I love him 💕 thank u spn for Crowley even tho he deserved better

in the last weeks I've realized there's a huuge consensus in the fandom for pansexual Crowley. if you're pan or not and wanna hc Crowley as pan, power to you! but what's bothering me is the non-discussion of it all. the way it seems obvious for everyone. whereas, to me, Crowley has been canonically gay all this time.....

disclaimer: I'm aware Mark Sheppard alledgely said he saw Crowley as pansexual, however I can't even take these words for canon without context. Especially not when a year later he'd say Crowley's sexuality didn't matter. The way Mark Sheppard talks about characters' sexuality is more a "why are people making a big deal let them be" than "the character doesn't care." Moreover, actors pov can't be taken as canon imo. Jensen Ackles thought Dean straight for so long when Dean's been bi all this time as well. Sometimes actors are biased by their own experiences & stereotypes!

disclaimer #2: on god I don't wanna start discourse lmao. I just wanna share my silly thoughts about a tv show & question the way Crowley's sexuality is written in this silly homophobic tv show. don't @ me about what's making you think Crowley is indisputably pansexual bc I assure you I already know your points

That being said, here's why I think Crowley is a bear, a gay man, a trans gay man actually, a homosexual, who isn't attracted to women & some food for thoughts about why the unquestioned consensus towards pan Crowley could have roots in both homophobia & panphobia.

I don't think we can think of Crowley as your usual demon. We know too much about Crowley's life as a human, and the numerous ways in which he acts un-demony, almost humanly after. Considering him simply like a demon with no concept of gender preference who would be pan “by default” wouldn’t be right with his character. But we also can't question his sexuality in the exact same way we would a human's.

It also can't be thought in the same way as angels': as once-humans demons do have a concept of gender. Crowley especially cares a lot about his gender presentation and the way he's addressed. Not only does he literally sell his soul for a bigger d*ck as a human ; as a demon he uses the same vessel where other demons are shown to move once they had to leave one ; and for the few hours Crowley's possessing a woman, he clearly states he should still be referred to as king.

This will all be used for homophobic & transphobic jokes in the show, but I'll get back to that later on. Gender does matter to Crowley's identity, and I think it could be extended to his sexuality.

I've seen numerous descriptions of it all saying Crowley's sexuality was "ambiguous" and I guess it is, as he never explicitly used any label. However "ambiguous" doesn't mean bi or pan. It doesn't mean anything besides the fact we can't draw a clear-cut conclusion of his sexuality.

Imo we can actually draw a clear-cut conclusion of Crowley's sexuality but yeh, I'm getting there.

----------------

Let's take a look at canon events around Crowley & sexuality!

His character introduction is him enjoying making a homophobe man kiss him for a deal

It is rumoured that he was a demon's lover (Lilith's)

He heavily flirts with Bobby

He french kisses Bobby for a deal and takes a pic

He never kisses a woman on screen (tell me if I forgot anyone!)

He flirts with every single man he sees, and even more strongly when it's making the other uncomfortable

The other parent of Crowley's son is never mentioned nor even brought up

He has two orgies that we know of

He has sex with a demon who's possessing a woman (Lola) when he was addicted to human blood

He dates, has sex with, and asks Dean to rule Hell with him. He's in love with Dean

On late spn he drinks fruity drinks

He flirts with and implies he had sex with an angel (Naomi)

He flirts with Death (Billie)

He's into BDSM

I'm not gonna go into details with all the sexual stuff he says bc there's a lot.... But it's always about gay sex. (once again, if I'm forgetting smth pls tell me nicely)

Now, with all that I'd like to question specifically the elements people use to say Crowley is canonically attracted to women.

He has two orgies that we know of

There’s the one Crowley has while he’s himself possessing a woman ; iirc it’s a foursome with two other men and one woman. Crowley still counts as a King, as the show makes sure we know, admitedly this dialogue implies we should still think of him as a not-very-manly-man.

Honestly, if one is convinced Crowley is attracted to women based on this scene.. okay. Personally I don’t see it because the orgy is unplanned, it’s an opportunity Crowley takes. Is he even attracted to the two other men?? Who knows. We don’t even know if Crowley even touches the other woman, there’re so many ways to have group sex. Even if he did, having sex with one woman doesn’t make it impossible for him to be homosexual.

The second orgy is with Dean. Crowley describes it then: “We've done extraordinary things to triplets.” It’s interesting how before I went to check, I thought it was clear the triplets were women. But not at all! I’ve been tricked by heteronormativity myself. So this is up to interpretation. Even though the way the show doesn’t make sure we know the triplets were women is pretty telling (as I’ll talk about later).

It is rumoured that he was Lilith's lover

Well, this is a rumour. In this relationship Crowley would know Lilith as a demon possessing a woman, and Lilith would know Crowley as a demon possessing a man as well. Who's even to say they met in their vessels to sleep together. That's the kind of cases in which the ambiguity of Crowley human/demon situation makes it impossible to draw any kind of conclusion towards Crowley's attraction to women. Also if anything Lilith is clearly a lesbian lmao.

He has sex with Lola when he was addicted to human blood

Same thing here, the relationship is one of demon/demon. Though we do now they do meet in their vessels to sleep together. Besides that, the sex happens while Crowley is at a low point. She's the one bringing him human blood, which makes the sex more of a transaction than anything. It does fit a very grey area of consent which would be fair to question.

We can't know for sure whether the demon possessing the woman was a woman as well, but let's say she was: 1/ Crowley having sex once or twice with a woman doesn't prevent him from being homosexual. 2/ What is he seeing if not a demon's true form? 3/ Wasn't he in a self-destructive mental state?

It's a stretch, imo, to assume Crowley was attracted to her.

He flirts with and had sex with Naomi / flirts with Billie

This one is so ridiculous to me bc Naomi is an angel and as a demon, Crowley sees her true form. We don't even know who was her vessel when they had sex.

The flirt thing is interesting however, bc iirc Naomi and Billie are the only "women" we see Crowley actually flirt with. During the orgies or the demon sex there's no flirt involved. It's interesting bc, as Cas would say: "Naomi's vessel is a woman. Naomi is an angel."

Same case for Billie who's a reaper then Death. Spn is pretty unclear about how the whole thing works but we know reapers are kind of angels. In any case, I won't go as far as saying Billie has any connection to gender.

Moreover, the way Crowley flirts with them is pretty light next to everything else Crowley says to men. It's pretty personal, I'm aware, but I do relate a lot with the way Crowley flirts with them VS how I flirt with men just because (and I'm a lesbian).

Anyway! Both Naomi and Billie are supernatural creatures, which brings the count of women Crowley flirts with to... zero.

-> What I take from all that is that Crowley is attracted to men for sure ; to angels and demons ; and doesn't care about the genitalia involved in the sex he has. We have nothing about the kind of relationships he had as a human. His gender presentation matters a lot to him. The only long-term commitment he has is with Dean. I wouldn't even say he had a committed relationship with Gavin's other parent bc we don't know anything about them.

----------------

But what's my deal with homosexual Crowley? One can wonder, if Crowley doesn't care about bodies, doesn't that mean he can still be written as pan?

No! First because sexual attraction isn't about genitalia (even if transphobes would argue the contrary but they're transphobic so...). And second, well....

I would refer to this point as "how do I know Crowley isn't attracted to women? bc Dean is"

I'm convinced that if the show wanted to write Crowley as anything other than a gay man, it would have been way more obvious.

This is a show who wrote Dean catcalling a faceless woman on the street, for no other reason than to remind the viewers Dean was attracted to women & to balance it with the following homoerotic scene.

One could say spn doesn't have lots of women characters to begin with, but that's my point exactly: when spn wants to show attraction towards women, they do find women for people to be attracted to. Hell, they even give Gavin some girlfriend but never ever bring up the topic of Gavin's other parent. Even though an entire episode is dedicated to learning about Crowley's past.

What's important to understand Crowley's sexuality isn't the people he slept with ; it's the people he doesn't show interest in.

The absence of something is the presence of the thing, blablabla. It's a way to look at homosexuality that heteronormativity makes hard to see because, unconciously, we don't tend to question attraction towards the expected gender. One would ask for a 10 pages essay on why a character is gay, but one would need only a 2 sec kiss to assure a character's heterosexuality or attraction towards the expected gender.

----------------

In Crowley's case, his attraction to men is a huge part of his character right from the beginning (thanks god, at least no one's questioning that). Spn as a show that hears what the fans are saying and twists writing accordingly, is perfectly aware of that. Yet rather than pushing women at him along the course of the show to remind everyone how Not Gay Crowley is - the opposite happens.

Yeh, Lola, Naomi, Billie, they all happen in the later seasons. But even then, the show somehow can't write Crowley as attracted to a human woman.

What happens then is: not only does Crowley fall for Dean ; he engages in some BDSM play with Lucifer : and he switches from drinking only the finest Scotch to fruity cocktails.

The BDSM thing as well as the drink thing are choices rooted in stereotypes, that's how spn is! But it does canonize Crowley's homosexuality. They're depriving him of his "masculinity" as the show goes on, because they purposely write him as homosexual. I don't think spn would have ever written a bi or pan character that way.

We learned a few days ago that Crowley died in a gutter. He died in a gutter for a bigger d*ck. I'm just gonna refer to Oscar Wilde & Mika on this : "some of us in the gutter are looking up at the stars."

The "referred to as king" scene isn't about Crowley being a demon and so not caring about gender - it's the opposite. Other demons are the ones poiting out Crowley's vessel. This is a transphobic joke. It's the demon edition of the "gay boy in a dress" transmisogynistic trope.

Viewers aren't supposed to be on Crowley's side ; we're supposed to be giggling with the other demons while Crowley is being emasculated. Crowley gets a woman vessel because he's a not-very-manly-man, because he's a trans man, because he's homosexual.

And I know that bc Dean is written as bi, and all they're doing is reaffirming the way he does like women while being extra subtle with his love for men.

Meanwhile Crowley is losing influence and power, loses his authority as he loses his throne in Hell, gets humiliated by Lucifer, until all his character revolves around is his love for Dean. The way Crowley is then protrayed as some lovesick ex who can't move on is, imo, a straight man fantasy. Crowley's love is both used as predatory and as a tool to validate Dean's Peak Masculinity.

Spn has been burying their gays all along, and Crowley was right there being punished for not only being in love with Dean but for not being attracted to women. For never being able to be a "normal" guy. For never being able to be seen as a "normal" guy. For checking every homophobic stereotypes in the books. Crowley as a human dies because he's a trans man. Crowley as a demon dies because he's homosexual.

----------------

That's what leads me to be uncomfortable with the way the fandom seems to have a consensus towards pansexual Crowley. (Once again: idc about people's personal hc of Crowley as pan, I just want to think critically about the way no one thinks twice about it & accepts it as canon so easily. Hell, just bc I dared to ask what started the pan Crowley confirmation I got accused of erasing his pansexuality. All I did was ask a question.)

To me, it feels like erasing everything his character went through because he was gay. And it seems to be taken from a reasoning which is going to assume Crowley is attracted to women.

I mean: the reasoning would go "oh, Crowley clearly has a non-straight sexuality -> he's attracted to men -> he's pan" His attraction to women being accepted by default, without needing any backup. And when I look at the canon I see nothing implying he'd be attracted to women. Taking Crowley's attraction to women for granted is following an heteronormative thinking.

Being into people isn't all about who one sleeps with. It's about love. And when we look at what spn shows about Crowley's close relationships, the only meaningful one he got is with Dean. When Rowena wants payback for Crowley making her kill Oskar, she goes for his son.

And it's SO interesting to me because if angels can't be in love because they don't have a soul - can demons? as they're beings with a destroyed soul? And if so, how powerful of Crowley to still fall in love with Dean Winchester.... the power of gay love :) (Crowley 🤝 Cas)

----------------

To conclude all this with some more stuff to think about if, like me, you love questioning everything:

While it's not wrong per se to hc Crowley as pan, it can be worth questioning what's making us so sure we collectively just vibe with it? To me there's a few things: - As I was saying: heteronormative bias - Crowley being a non-fully-human character - Crowley being masculine (despite the show's attempts to erase that) - Crowley being into BDSM - Crowley flirting and making sexual remarks in every context

These, unconsciously, gives a vibe of a character who's "outside" of the gender norm, not making big deal of their sexuality, not even questioning it. This creates this idea of "ambiguity" around Crowley's sexuality. The way Crowley particularly seems to be really chill about sex, is a demon (so what does he know about gender?), and heavily flirty, ... is what most people will link to pansexuality. That doesn't mean thinking of Crowley as pan is being problematic™ ; this means in western medias that's what fills the "pansexual character" imagery (like basically: the Jack Harkness type).

However, when we look at it like that, none of these elements are defining of pansexuality. None of them are excluding him from homosexuality. If not stereotypes.

That's where it gets personal ; but it does make me feel like the huge consensus towards a pansexual Crowley (when there is no clear-cut evidence of it) is erasing the complexity of homosexual experiences. As I said at the begining: I'm happy if pansexual people can relate to Crowley ; everone's free to headcanon. But saying Crowley is canonically pansexual is a stretch - and a take rooted in homophobic stereotypes.

Imo Crowley may have been created with all these traits pushing towards a pan reading of his character. However, as the show went, he was clearly written as a homosexual man. The changes in his portrayal took a turn to be specifically homophobic. He gets imagery that only strictly homosexual characters got (such as drinking fruity cocktails like Aaron. Meanwhile Dean, on the same scene, is allowed beer & whiskey.)

We're used to taking spn's homophobic rep and jokes to make it our own. Yet it seems, when it comes to Crowley, the fandom doesn't see it.

Sometimes people aren't attracted to the gender heteronormativity expects them to be attracted to.......... sometimes people are gay and it's not an umbrella term.

[diminuel]

Do you think one of the reasons so many see dean as a bottom has to do with how they relate so much to dean and they are bottoms that they transfer that? I understand that because I’ve done it with other ships myself but I guess I just find it weird that some fans can be so hostile towards bottom cas. (For the record I think all interpretations are valid) I don’t relate to either of them but if I had to pick one it would be dean but my interpretation of his character from the text is that he’d have a hard time with it all. I just can’t see him ever bottoming at first. It would be major vulnerability. Because of this I have a preference for bottom cas. I won’t say there aren’t more things like aesthetically pleasing but those are minor in to how I see them. Cas is so accommodating I don’t think he would care he just wants to be with Dean. So if Dean wanted to top 100% of the time Cas would be more than fine with it, he doesn’t have hang ups. Because this show went on for so long I can see so many interpretations of these characters and of course AU is a completely different ballgame since they didn’t have the same things happen in those universes. Im much more likely to accept bottom dean in AUs but even then it’s hard for me to accept a characterization that is too off from how I see him. He’s such a prickly one lol I’m sure you’ve talked about this before so no need to rehash, but if you could link me to those posts I’d appreciate it.

(I wrote a nice little essay in response to this, but accidentally closed the window. Wah.)

I’m sure projection has a lot to do with how we interpret characters and develop preferences for fic we want to read (including how we would see/ imagine characters having sex). And maybe when we project strongly, any deviation from that projection feels like an affront? Still no reason to hate on bottom Cas of course (or bottom Dean of course).

But there are a lot of other reasons for why people prefer what they prefer; some might simply enjoy the idea of taking this somewhat macho seeming dude and have him bottom because it might act like a subversion to the persona. Others just like the visuals and some probably don’t care and decide who gets to bottom by tossing a coin or what flows better in the fic.

(Generally speaking, I think the constant mocking of bottom Cas is ridiculous.)

I agree with your interpretation of Dean. Dean grew up in a certain time and place in a certain community (if you can call hunters a community). An endless string of seedy motels and seedier bars along America’s roads and monster related crime scenes doesn’t seem like the most inviting place to learn and figure out your sexuality.

Does anyone, when they think of American hunters in the 90s and 00s as a concept, imagine them to be open minded people? How much nonsense about what it means “to be a man” did Dean soak up being in the presence of angry, traumatized men, who solved their problems by shooting at them, drinking and dying young? The fact that Dean was a teen and young adult in the 90s and 00s should also be considered. It’s probably difficult to unlearn things that he has picked up or the way he sees himself and how he sees and uses sex and sexual innuendo. (Dean’s subjected to physical and verbal violence that is sexualized frequently. He is being insulted for being “pretty”, he is called a girl or a princess for perceived weakness or displaying emotions, not even only from villains, but from family too. He casually insults Sam too for interests and actions Dean considers “unmanly”. And Sam observes, early on, that people think Dean is gay because he’s kinda butch and probably overcompensating. So in a normal, everyday setting outside of hunter haunts, Dean sticks out as well exactly for adopting this macho attitude that gets him respect - in theory - from the crowd that surrounded him growing up.)

On top of that, the Dean Cas first met is a repressed, traumatized, angry bastard. I can imagine that sex that doesn’t happen within Dean’s usual “safe” parameters (women picked up in bars, no strings attached, just for fun) would make him feel vulnerable. It doesn’t even have to come as far as bottoming. And on top of that Cas is a monster shaped like a dude. The monster fucking might be even more of a problem than the dude fucking. Even if nobody knew about it, Dean knows that this would provide a target for attack and while Dean might grin it off, those blows still land.

I think... if you take Dean later in life, with a better network of friends and actual support in his life that goes beyond his brother (who might be more open minded, but is still his father’s son and also couldn’t escape the background radiation of the hunter lifestyle) there’s a better chance of him unlearning harmful impulses and relearning and rediscovering his identity.

I also agree with your take on Cas. Personally, I don’t think about what Cas wants out of sex with Dean as much. He did not grow up in a human society, he doesn’t have the same concepts about sex, gender and identity that Dean has. He only learns about it by mimicking Dean. Sex is boring to him as an angel, he is indifferent to other people’s sexual orientation, still he does typical “heterosexual dude” things when written by Buckleming he’s human. In pretty much every instance where sex or kissing are touched upon, Cas reacts to someone else initiating. So that’s how I think Cas is. He would follow Dean’s lead and pine endlessly if Dean doesn’t initiate anything. (Which is why I don’t really dig Cas being too pushy when it gets to sexual things if we’re in a canon compliant setting.)

I should probably save and post this before I delete it again. If people want to share input or discuss their takes, be my guest! (Just remember that we’re talking about fictional people and fictional sex and that sex can have narrative implications in fiction that it doesn’t have IRL...)

I have a tag for discussions like this but I’m not sure what exactly I’ve already talked about.

[innermoonlight-bhe]

Me, again, on Destiel. Please read.

I’ve been having problems all this month. And while I was self-exploring the reasons of my uneasiness, I tracked it back to 15x18. When I first watched the episode I had lots of unresolved feelings. I felt happy and at the same time really distressed. After waiting for two week for the end of Supernatural I thought those feelings would disappear but they just kept on getting stronger. I began feeling stressed and, this last two weeks, feelings just empty. I had no desire to do anythings, like I was lost. Yesterday I realized why and got me sad and mad at the same time. I don’t want to take a lot of time writing this but there are too many emotions and rational thoughts that don’t let me sleep at night. 

This is why I want to divide this text into two parts:The first one being the queerbating debate on internet. This includes the normalization of heterosexual relationships, audiences, plots and writing, marketing and advertising, and other things that have to do with t.v. industry. In specific, the rare case of CW and its treatment of the whole Supernatural family. In the second part I would like to focus on my personal experience, which I’m sure is same to most people who were left all alone in this Destiel world of disappointment. This last one you can decide to ignore or share with me. The one that i’m most interested is that you read the first part, even though it can seem a little out of context, since I’ll be referring to another tv shows of the CW.

 FIRST PART THEN OF THE DESTIEL OPINION:When I was left so sad after the queerbaiting I began watching a famous soup opera aka telenovela, called Yo soy Betty, la fea. It’s famous worldwide and I felt it like a comfort home after all the Destiel drama. It made me happy because the story plot is only one: the heterosexual couple that falls in love. Of course I’m reducing this too much, but the point is that yesterday, after I finished watching it, I realized that even though the main couple had problems at the end the audience knew they would’ve ended together. It did happen, in the anti-last episode, same as in supernatural and the Cas confession. The two further episodes centered on the happy conclusion on the story. There are clear points to establish:

Point 1:  Supernatural was born as a serious mainly centered on two heterosexual man traveling all along a country hunting monsters while looking for a father. Meanwhile a classic telenovela centers on a love couple who fight against everythings to be together; in this case it’s establish since the beginning and no one will except anything else. 

Point 2: Meanwhile telenovela’s audiences are destined to be woman, wanting to follow the classic love story; Supernatural was being male focused actually did excepted woman but also men watchers. Supernatural had a largest specter of viewers.

Point 3: Telenovelas are not willing to change the story for the audiences desires. They work with practical and classic formulas that rarely will fail. There’s no necessity to receive a feedback to complete. Supernatural and tv series, on the other hand, actually need the feedback from the viewers because on it depends their permanency on the screen. 

Supernatural needed to keep their viewers high so the show could continue. I’m gonna leave the classic telenovela out for a moment. It’s important settling this differences to approximate myself to the basic point of my madness: how unethical is the queerbaiting.The public opinion changes, and The CW having clear this is very know to keep in touch with fans wishes and needs. In the case of Jane the Virgin, a barely combination of the telenovela classic plot but in a tv series way, had a big “change” with one of their main characters: Petra. Her connection with the main character, Jane, was noted and wanted by many of the viewers. But the show’s creator knew that main plot (point 1)was a girl who accidentally gets pregnant and eventually falls in love with the love of her life, Rafael. So the show writers wouldn’t just change this main plot in order to make a couple happen, so instead they gave the public what they wanted by making Petra bisexual and introducing a perfect girl for her, also called Jane, to deliver the wish of fans. This relationship worked purely and on its on. The reactions with Petra bisexuality were low, and they took care of it as if it was something normal and not anything that needed satanizing. No one could be expected to freak, not even Petra’s twins. Even though the first seasons Petra only had male relationships. This is a good thing that The CW did, but they didn’t do this out of the goodness of their heart: they did it for views and for the audience (point 2). Jane the virgin was also planned to have female audiences and to treat serious social issues respecting sexuality and love. This is why it didn’t came as a surprise. 

Then why did Destiel couldn’t happen? Because the CV is homophobic? Probably there’s some of this in it, but the reality it’s they weren’t giving up on the part of the audience that is actually homophobic, or that at least won’t feel comfortable watching a heterosexual character discover himself as bi. The thing of the audiences is important because the “ambiguity” in which Cas’ confession was treated worked perfectly for them: it gave exactly the sufficient enough to keep us happy, meaning while keeping the perfect amount of “friendship”. So anyone can take whatever they want for the story. By this part I understand why they wanted to deal with this confession in an ambiguous way: to please everybody. But why did they wanted to please everybody? It wasn’t out of kindness of their heart, it was for views.The whole queerbaiting debate has being on the tables for a long time but we also ignore the unethical implications on it. It has been used by many contemporary media, to hint at something that the producers are not expecting to happen any time. And even though, they keep on teasing us. This is highly unethical because the reason behind them is the accumulation of money. Supernatural survived because of Destiel. I resisted myself to say this because I had respect for the series until I stopped watching around season 10. The story and plots were doom, repetitive and boring at times. We keep watching for the emotions caused by the supernatural family. Not only Destiel but Sam and all of the characters. The original plot explained in the point 1 was lost and blurred, we were far away from that premise and that was why the finale episode feel just bad. 

The show had chances to grow without losing the origina plot but also confronting change and accept that sometimes, things must pass and you have to move. Destiel was an important support of the show, the views and year after year renovation of the series. Pointing at the queerbaiting has lost its meaning if we forgot why they do it, why they keep on doing this even though it makes us feel bad. This affects the shows work in perspective because it changes the plot and natural progression of the story. For the queerbaiting, they have scenes that are forgotten next episodes like they never happened. I’m a literature student and the first thing they say to us is that a scene, even a word, should be taken so seriously that it actually work on the long road of the story. In Destiel we have beautiful, all heart breaking scenes of Cas and Dean being romantic, closed, just in love. The Dean’s confession were he admitted to the priest he wanted to experience new things, the Castiel’s love confession, and others are an example of how this scenes have a space in the show but are still isolated from the original story. They don’t play a part in the bigger image. That’s why we don’t see Dean talk to Sam about Cas, this is why they are so many Destiel plots left unsolved. I have a small memory of an old lady assuring Dean that he’s in love, even though we haven’t seen in a long time a female in Dean’s life (Dean, who the first four seasons flirted with e v e r y woman he met.  Because producers and writers can let this scenes happen as long as it doesn’t change the main characters. Even, they are willing to let us think that Cas could be bi but Dean isn’t, by not having him say anything after Cas says I love you. And to be honest, we didn’t except much. 

We knew that we were clowning and it’s not like we excepted a love making scene from those two. We raised our expectations after 15x18 and not after. A lot of us were waiting on the finale to bring joy even though we never actually imagined it would go canon. 15x18 lifted expectations very few had and that lots, myself for instance, returned to watch after hearing Destiel was semi-canon. It brought back feelings, I got to rewatch supernatural to enter the atmosphere once again... So it was perfect for the CW. On one hand, the biggest queerbaiting on history gave them back for 15x19 and 15x20 all the fandom they had lost for the previous queerbaiting and tiredness of waiting. And also, they keep the antis and the homophobe watching. It was perfectly staged and nothing else was expecting. Something similar happen with Jane the virgin. With the death of Michael (I rather shipped more Jane with Michael) a lot of fans stopped watching. This was planned since the beginning and they actually gave us a fake death and then the real one. I actually stopped watching one season of Jane the virgin after his death because I was devastated, even though since the beginning everything pointed at Jane ending up with Rafael. Her connection with Michael was lovely and pure love. But after killing him off they wrote the relationship of Jafael so perfectly, not rushed or anything: it developed in a way that her relationship with Michael was intact but finished by death. It was a hard punch but at the end we ended up to accept her relationship with Rafael because of the clear progression between the characters. But, at the end of the series, at the last season they decided it was good idea to bring Michael back from the death and have her chose Rafael, after all of the progress It took for her to forget Michael. The changed her and all of the perspective of love changed for the show. It made thing that soul mates don’t exist, that all the love Jane felt for Michael disappear after having a whole season of her suffering for her lost, after she wrote her first book for him. It would’ve been so much better for the story if Michael stayed death. 

So the things is it’s not only queerbaiting on homosexual couples, but the whole idea that they need to have a huge audiences watching their last seasons. I returned to watch Jane the virgin excepting for Michael. This awful thing they do. Just for views and gain of capital bothers me and its what makes me angry. In the case of Supernatural it’s also a topic of homophobia and the fear that the homophobia of a few will ruin the views of series finales. An as I considere the unethical implications is why I would love to have them apologize to us. It’s like a person promising the stars and stopping you to move on, while they know nothing will happen. They use us as numbers to gain money and attention. The decision that I and a lot of people took to unfollow all of The CW accounts is no radical. It’s a little if we take into account all of the money they made from the unethical queerbaiting. It causes me a lot of anger and actually feel like a I need an apology because I felt used and dirty. This is the fault of the industry and the CW has a fame of doing so.

 PART 2: 

This will be little in comparison. Now I want to get to the sad sentimental part. I felt all empty because four years ago that I stopped watching I also stopped talking to the love of my life. Hearing about Destiel had me going back to moments. I even desired to talk to him again to tell him that I wasn’t all wrong. Destiel wasn’t platonic or an illusion. it has clearly staged to makes us think it could happen. It’s not the story of an angel who falls for a human, that gives everything up for him, that loves him. After his confession is the story of unrequited love. Dean never says it back and it’s a feeling that a lot of people have suffered. To love someone and not having them saying them back, of the relationship that never ends but at the end it’s one of the most important. This one I talked about I never dated, I never kissed, but he’s the man i’ve loved the most in my life. Having Castiel saying I love you and never receiving anything back, giving his life and no one saving him, it’s just heartbreaking for all of us who have constantly giving everything without expecting anything in return. At the same time it’s the story of a a couple that never happens but that should have. The same reflexion as always: if it were heterosexual it would’ve happen long time ago. But it also happens in real life, that if time alined, if things were in other way relationships would’ve happen with people in our lives.I had a lot of more feelings for Destiel, but that would be for another time. Right now I just realized why made me, personally, feed angry and sad. I realized I was a Cas to someone else. I realized I was used by a network. The queerbaiting actually has psychology repercussion on us, and it’s something they fail to understand. Accepting that I was affected by a tv show took me a hard time. I didn’t know how to explain to others why this had me absence for week, I thought I was ridiculous and week. I felt bad but know I realized I’m not wrong. It’s not my fault but it’s years of messing with out feelings on purpose. Some day i’ll write an essay on this. I have to much to say but I end it with this:

The media manipulates our emotions and doesn’t take any responsibility whatsoever. 

Don’t trust the media.

(Sorry for the bad english, I’m mexican. But at least Destiel is canon in my language). 

[disizletzi]

I hesitated to say anything because I really, really don't want people coming into my inbox telling me why I shouldn't feel the way I feel, but...

Regarding where the blame falls for 15x20...

[there should be a readmore here, I apologize but Tumblr is fucking up and I'm trying to change it. If you see this it is still being difficult è,é]

I've seen all the posts saying we shouldn't blame the writers for the finale, and how it's all the CW's and the producer's fault, and all I can think about when I see that is, but what about the things that Dabb could control and still screwed up?

I've worked in the industry, and although I admit that I quickly quit after two years because I couldn't bear to be treated like crap, being paid worse than crap and only having the opportunity to work once every three months, I still think I got the gist of how it works, especially since I worked exclusively on TV series.

I know that producers are sharks. I know they only think about money. I'm not mad about destiel only being one-sided, because I kind of figured we wouldn't get Dean's side of things because that would be too gay.

I'm not mad about the characters that we should've seen in the finale not being there. That's not Dabb's fault, even the fact that they didn't even call the actors before covid got in the way wasn't his fault.

I'm not mad at Dabb for Shoshanna not being in the episode, because I can understand how covid fucked up a lot of stuff for everybody.

Hell, I'm not sure that I'm even mad that Dean didn't mention Cas, that that line of dialogue was given to Sam instead. 15x19 and 15x20 gave me the weird feeling that some if not most of Sam's lines would've worked better in Dean's mouth, but I assumed the studio execs didn't want him to sound too gay. The gays had their moment in 15x18, you know, and Dean Winchester needed to keep his status as a red blooded, heterosexual, muscle-car loving American. I get that.

But Dabb is still showrunner, and he still wrote that particular script.

Putting a line saying Sam or Dean Jr. Sign to the Blurry Wife/Mom would've been easy. That's on him.

Failing to give Dean more time as a free man through a montage showing the passing of more time (just one shot of a calendar would've done it. It could've been in the script as well), that's on him.

Sam living a miserable life without Dean (crying alone in the Impala even as an old man) and destroying years of fighting the co-dependency, that's on him.

And killing Dean. Especially killing Dean, this is on him. Most meta writers that I follow have agreed on this, this was his endgame, and we ignored the clues because it seemed to go against everything the brothers fought for.

So yeah, I blame Dabb for how I feel about this episode. I blame him because after seemingly having fought tooth and nail for destiel and losing, it looks like he just gave up and gave us some half-assed episode that looks more like a Bucklemming episode than anything else.

And I would've believed that maybe Bucklemming had a hand in it (nepotism theories and all), if not for the fact that Dean's death has been foreshadowed for a while. Or at least I tend to believe the meta writers who say it was, I am shit at meta tbh.

So yeah. I blame the execs, the studio, the Power That Be, for sure. But I also blame Dabb because that episode was narratively non-sensical, and I don't give a shit about some hypothetical smoke signals or whatever sign Dabb supposedly put in the episode to try and show us he was coerced into doing this.

It doesn't excuse that he killed off a character that I'm sure the studios would've had no problem keeping alive. Jensen said he'd have been happy to come back in a few years for a special or something similar after all.

Don't tell me they would've missed the opportunity to cash in once more on their oldest and most reliable show to date.

Dabb did that. Dabb made me feel this way. This is on him, and I'm tired of people telling me I shouldn't feel this way.

[nicollekidman]

abby can you talk on how deancas and tenrose are the same?

okay so i need to preface this with the usual…. cannot believe i am enlightened enough to be seriously discussing this in the year 2020, but i’m happy for my teen self. also there is about to be a lot of unhinged earnestness to follow, so if you’re easily succebtable to cringe… don’t read on. ALSO RIP I WROTE 1800 WORDS about just the most general and nonspecific concepts…… brb k wording myself 

first off i think it’s so funny that i just went back and looked and i typed cas/ten as a one and dean/rose as a six completely independently so… that’s where my head is at. 

i think the meat of the issue is the way that tenrose and deancas function both in relation to the overall narrative and each other. there are many differences of course, but at the end of the day, both relationships are positioned as the ultimate working example of what their shows are trying to be About. 

i could write an entirely separate essay on the intersections between cas and the doctor, but essentially…… these are figures introduced to the audience as Beyond Human Understanding. they exist as celestial beings unconstrained by the rules of space and time, more closely connected to god than humanity. we meet the doctor farther along in his journey than castiel, but both of their character arcs are rooted in a Godlike Creature observing humanity and becoming enamored with it/driven to protect and care for it. by the time the doctor meets rose, it is well established that he has a soft spot for humanity, she’s not the one who teaches him that. but she is the one he reaches out to and leans on for support and healing post-time war, and she is the one who influences ten’s regeneration so deeply that he is made in her image/for her. castiel rebuilds dean atom by atom is hell, and upon rescuing him from the pit, finds himself similarly irrevocably altered. it is revealed to us that castiel also has had a long affection for humanity, but nothing swayed him from his ultimate duty before he met dean. and just as the doctor finds himself with a family for the first time after gallifrey with rose and her mother on the estate, castiel finds himself cut off from his family/realm, but with a new family, team free will. they lose everything, their attachment to the heavens, and find a new family and a new reason to continue, in these humans. 

dean and rose also are the ultimate Human Credentials. we all know this term to be indicative of someone who confers humanity onto the other, someone who, by mere accompaniment, allows their beloved to more safely/easily navigate life. and it’s true in this sense. rose is constantly reminding ten how to Be Human (”am i being rude?”) in both big and small ways, just as dean more or less badgers castiel in the same way ( “dude. we talked about this”). neither cas nor ten would be as intimately connected with their “human sides” with their partners. but dean and rose are also Human Credentials in a broader sense, in that….. they act as character references for the rest of humanity, and by virtue of their own selves/their partner’s attachment to them, guarantee investment in the rest of the human race. castiel is more-or-less content to watch from heaven and take orders until he rescues dean and becomes involved with his life (”the moment castiel laid a hand on you in hell he was lost”). his love and affection for dean and his willingness to bend everything to keep him safe means that castiel learns to defy heaven for the good of humanity. ten has always loved humans, but he loves rose a little differently. The Doctor Needs Someone, and we see rose’s power as his human credential most strongly when she’s gone. Without rose, ten is more willing to put himself/others in danger, to make choices that will result in death, to be callous and reckless and thoughtless. rose’s presence is a constant reminder that humanity is Worth the Trouble, that he’s never met anyone who wasn’t important. 

for rose and dean…. these are two, completely Normal, Average People. or so they think anyways. the burdens they carry and their inner lives are very different, but in very simple ways, they both would’ve continued their lives believing there was nothing special about them, getting up to Do Their Duty, never asking for anything special. both view themselves are caretakers, although this manifests differently bc rose is a bratty 19 year old and dean never got the opportunity to be a teenager. but both Feel Deeply in ways/levels that others don’t. each has an extremely open heart and a need to protect/provide for the little people. what ten and cas give them is an entirely new perspective, whereupon it starts to be possible to believe that even the smallest person can affect the world for better, and that they, specifically Deserve More. 

THEN we have the ideas of religion/free will/fate that intertwine both shows. rtd’s doctor who was explicitly and obviously written with the intent to show an atheist universe where the human spirit and mind are enough on their own to be holy, to determine right and wrong, and to decide the events of the universe. obviously ten is often situated in christ-like positions, but he learns from humanity as much as they teach him. supernatural is a little more complicated, with an alternate vision of accepted figures of christianity, but both shows heavily emphasize the power of human kindness, passion, empathy, and individual choice. ten may not live within the confines of space and time, but apocalypses in doctor who often hinge on one small person doing The Next Right Thing, just as supernatural’s base credo is We’re Writing a New Chapter. castiel bursts onto the scene and is literally taught the importance of free will by dean, and perhaps even the importance of his own desires/needs by dean. both core relationships exemplify what it means to make choices outside the realm of fate (even whilst allowing for the existence of soulmates). yes, castiel was ordered to raise dean from perdition, but their human connection is what allows the winchesters to subvert God and move outside the printed narrative - love for a human is what makes an angel CHOOSE to fall from heaven. and ten…. well ten knows that rose is going to die. ten understands from the moment he allows himself to care for her above all others, that he is dooming himself to pain and regret and loss. but he decides to do it anyways, because isn’t the best thing an otherwordly being in love with humanity can do is to eperience love and loss on a human level? both cas and ten understand that there is no love without pain, that they will be the ones to watch their beloveds leave them, but that the Choice to love out of free will is worth it. 

there’s also the element of Expression/Repression. here is where the underlying emotion remains similar but the freedom of how exactly to illustrate these feelings could not be more different. tenrose is a heterosexual relationship at the end of the day, and their storylines require them to be alone in each other’s presence nearly 100% of the time. thus, we get LOTS of familiar touching, lots of body language and casual intimacy and teasing. dean and cas…. lol. not so much. instead of physicality, we get looks, both because of dean’s own upbringing/sexuality and because they exist on the show that they do. deancas deals in the unspoken - the acts of service, the grace healings, the tense moments of battle, the lack of personal space. the expression is different, but the emotion is the same. ten and dean hold themselves back from the more Obvious open-book partners, for their own personal reasons. the end effect being that everyone on screen understands/insinuates what’s happening, and their relationship is so thick with subtext its a wonder no one suffocates. Words are seen as the ultimate step, once which cannot be overcome in normal life. both pairs use death/separation as the final step towards full transparency, but even then we are never granted the ultimate catharsis of an I Love You. castiel couches his confessions in generalizations towards groups, and dean swallows his truth even in prayer. rose says the words through a veil of uncrossable distance, but she doesn’t get to hear them back. they can Know, and we can Understand, but we cannot hear it. 

lastly (for now)…. and perhaps as an ultimate summation…….. death and parallel universes and fate cannot stop them, those who are drawn to each other through heaven and hell, through time and realities. it is to be understood that will all four individuals fight to ensure that each human being is safe, protected, and able to make their own choices they are soulmates. they are soulmates who are bound to each other to be sure, but they’re not Fated in a way that takes away their free will. they’re fated by the series of choices they make, over and over again, to prioritize each other, to traverse time and space and dimension and hell to get back to one another. god cannot see castiel in his plans for the world, and yet castiel has evaded death again and again, to give dean a win. nothing could tear rose away from her doctor, and even while trapped in another dimmension, she hears his voice, she runs to him, and she finds a way to get back to him. each and every choice they make brings them back to one another, regardless of the ultimate ending. we don’t know yet if we will ever hear castiel and dean get their doomsday moment, but we do know that in order for castiel to leave dean’s side, an entirely new dimmension (the empty) will have to be in play to keep them apart. 

ultimately, castiel and ten are both celestial beings with self-worth issues but a burning and true desire to see humanity thrive, directly and indirectly because of their attachment to dean and rose. dean and rose make castiel and ten more human, all while exemplifying why human is a good thing to be. dean and rose become more themselves under cas and ten’s influence, both are given more opportunity to bloom into who they are meant to be. all four become More in the presence of each other, and save the world while doing it. ultimately there is a heavy dose of tragedy in both - whether or not dean and cas get their moment is yet to be seen, but these are still Soulmates with differing relationships to mortality. but is there anything sweeter than defying god’s and fate and our own doubts to grab love with both hands, even when we know there will be pain? 

[castielss]

im not here to fight, just to be sure myself, but uhh i never heard of any 2005 homophobic comments?? what rubbed *me* the wrong way was the way he shut down and brushed off the queer fan(s) who wanted to discuss their interp of dean as bi, like?? plus the essay thing where he wrote "? no". i understand not agreeing with their interp but it's not right to completely tell others that their headcanons about dean/ destiel are not true, it comes off as if hes not comfy enough in his heterosexuality

First I never saw those comments I never saw anything like that. I’m just saying info people have said to me.

I also honestly I don’t know what is this essay you are talking about. Honestly I also think he at the time that happened I don’t know when... he simply didn’t believe Dean was Bi or agreed with it but people are entitled to change their mind and if you see the latest conventions I think you can see he’s very open and comfortable with who he is and who Dean is and this is obviously a big part of him. But also little comments he said or did don’t make him an homophobic. In my eyes. People need to check interviews and people should check the Las Vegas convention that it was this year still I believe.

[analyzingdestiel]

DESTIEL REVIEW OF 8X8: HUNTERI HEROICI

__________________________________________________________________________________

SCENE 1

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CASTIEL Excellent. [He raps the car and turns away.] I'll see you there.

DEAN Wait, Cas, Cas! If you want to play cowboys and bloodsuckers, that's fine. But you're gonna stick with us, okay? None of this zapping around crap. Capiche?

CASTIEL Yeah, I capiche.

DEAN All right, then. [He walks to the driver’s door.]

CASTIEL Can I, uh, at least ride in the front seat?

DEAN and SAM simultaneously [SAM while shouldering CASTIEL out of the way] No. __________________________________________________________________________________

REVIEW OF SCENE 1

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I think it's been made clear by this point that Dean absolutely despises when Castiel disappears. Though he not only despises when he disappears to avoid questioning or to avoid a situation that Dean needs an answer to, or needs his help with, but Dean is even bothered by Castiel disappearing in general, as this scene tells us. There is no reason that Dean should have been so upset about Castiel arriving before them. Perhaps he thought Castiel might ruin it? Or perhaps he was worried about something bad happening to Castiel? I feel, generally, it is related to Dean's sense of a lack of control. __________________________________________________________________________________

SCENE 2

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DEAN All right, well, I'm gonna call it. [He closes the journal he was reading.] Cas, you gonna book a room or what?

CASTIEL No, I'll stay here.

DEAN Oh, okay. Yeah. We'll have a slumber party, braid Sam's hair. Where are you gonna sleep?

CASTIEL I don't sleep.

DEAN Okay, well, I need my four hours, so...

CASTIEL I'll watch over you.

DEAN That's not gonna happen. __________________________________________________________________________________

REVIEW OF SCENE 2

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I see a lot of fans referring to this scene.

We see that Castiel was not willing to leave the two in the room alone. He wanted to stay there with them, and in fact, was planning on watching over Dean as he slept. I don't feel Castiel, himself, views this as erotic. I don't feel it is related to an attraction to Dean, but rather, his desire to protect Dean. It is more related to devotion from Castiel's end than it is related to sex. I feel it is Destiel-related whether his reasons behind it are sexual or not.

Dean, we know, views Castiel's watching him as he sleeps as erotic. He's stated it in 4x3 "What, do you get your freak on by watching other people sleep?" He looks at it as if this is a sexual behavior. This isn't unlike Dean; he often sees things from a sexual point of view -- and very often with Castiel I have come to realize, which is interesting enough in itself.

Why is he relating it to sex, and why does the idea make him so nervous? There is the sense of a lack of confidence, as if Dean is worried about what might happen. He becomes dumbfounded when this sort of thing happens. Would one be nervous if they weren't attracted to that person? Even if the other person made a move, he could simply say "I don't swing that way" and it'd be over and done with. Imagine that Benny was to offer to watch over Dean as he slept. I imagine Dean would react with "thanks man, but I'm all set". I can't imagine Dean reacting with the same nervous energy if Benny had asked. (In fact, Dean's relationship with Benny entirely is different than his relationship with Castiel, who is labeled as another "friend", so I find that interesting. Though I'll get more into that in another review.)

So all in all, Dean's reaction to Castiel's offer seemed to be nervous and he reacted with some hostility. Often Dean reacts to things that make him nervous with hostility; he is not comfortable with feeling vulnerable and is especially fearful around homosexuality in general. It was made clear that this was the reason for Dean's reaction. I can practically hear his thoughts, "oh God, that's gay".

One could take this and look at it as Dean being nervous around homosexuality because he's afraid that he's going to partake in such a thing. Men who are purely heterosexual and confident/comfortable with their sexuality are usually not so nervous about this sort of thing because they realize that, because they are not attracted to the other man, that nothing will happen. And even if something had happened, they realize that the situation could easily be rectified by simply stating "I'm not interested". What is Dean worried about if he is comfortable with his apparent heterosexuality? Dean seems to be fearful that if he does allow such a thing, something might happen.

I feel his reason for the discomfort with Castiel's offer is the same reason that he was fearful of Castiel's proximity in 5x3. If Dean wasn't afraid something might happen, if he was not afraid that he might act on it himself, would he have reacted with such nervous energy? If he was not attracted to Castiel, wouldn't he have simply said "dude, give me space", without the addition of looking from Castiel's eyes, to his lips, before breathlessly stating such a thing? There is the impression that his nerves are stemming from repressed desires.

Again, let's imagine Benny and Dean in a similar situation. Imagine that Benny got closer to Dean than usual and was looking deeply into his eyes. I can't imagine Dean looking from Benny's eyes to his lips and then nervously asking for space. I imagine he'd glance at Benny, perhaps brows creased in confusion, and tell him to back up. There's never any nervous energy when he's with Benny, it's very different than when he's with Castiel.

I would believe this is referred to as "repressed sexual tension".

I cannot say for sure that this is what it is, though this is the impression that I get, and I also wouldn't doubt it because the writers did know the popularity of Destiel at this point and have catered to their fans in the past. Again, as I stated in the previous review, they have to be subtle about it though because some of their fans DON'T like Destiel. So things can be hinted at but it will always be, for the most part, ambiguous. For example, one could say Dean simply reacted this way because he's disturbed and there isn't anything he's repressing. I feel this is something Jensen would have agreed with, though one has to remember that the one who wrote this episode (Paul Edwards) may have had other things in mind that he just did not vocalize.

I feel that the relationship between Dean and Castiel is being played out exactly as is intended and that the sense of attraction and the general feeling that they are based off a romantic couple is deliberate. Those working on the series see it for what it is ("Jeremy Carver gave a note to us — I guess it was a note to Cas, to me — that I was “acting like a jilted lover” with Dean, so there you go."), and so it makes sense that viewers would see it as well.

I could continue to use Dean and Benny's relationship as a comparison because of how it differs despite the fact that both he and Castiel are labeled as Dean's "friends". It really does put things in perspective. __________________________________________________________________________________

SCENE 3

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INT. MOTEL ROOM – NIGHT

DEAN is using the laptop at the table. CASTIEL is sitting on one of the beds, looking at John’s journal.

CASTIEL Your father... Beautiful handwriting.

DEAN How you feeling, Cas?

CASTIEL I'm fine.

DEAN Well, I just – I – I know that when... I got puked out of Purgatory, it took me a few weeks to... find my sea legs.

CASTIEL I'm fine.

DEAN Don't get me wrong. I'm – I’m happy you're back. I'm – I’m freaking thrilled. It's just this whole mysterious-resurrection thing – it always has one mother of a downside.

CASTIEL [closes the journal] So, what do you want me to do?

DEAN Maybe take a trip upstairs.

CASTIEL To Heaven?

DEAN Yeah, poke around, see if the God squad can't tell us how you got out.

CASTIEL No.

DEAN Look, man, I – I hate those flying-ass monkeys just as much as you do, but –

CASTIEL [forcefully] Dean! I said no!

After a pause, DEAN closes the laptop, walks over and sits on the edge of the other bed, facing CASTIEL.

DEAN Talk to me.

CASTIEL Dean, I... When I was... bad... and I had all those things – the... the leviathans... writhing inside me... I caused a lot of suffering on earth, but I devastated Heaven. I vaporized thousands of my own kind, and I – I – I can't go back.

DEAN 'Cause if you do, the angels will kill you.

CASTIEL Because if I see what Heaven's become – what I – [sighs] what I made of it... I'm afraid I might kill myself.

SAM enters the room.

SAM Hey. Got something.

CASTIEL Good. [He stands up. DEAN stays sitting on the bed a few moments longer.] Excellent. What? __________________________________________________________________________________

REVIEW OF SCENE 3

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We see that Castiel continues to confide in Dean in ways he confides in no other. He reveals things about himself to Dean that he doesn't reveal to others and there is a definite sense of trust. It's been this way since 4x7 when Castiel first told Dean that he "has his doubts". There is a closeness that Dean and Castiel share, that Castiel doesn't share with anyone else. In fact, once Sam arrives, Castiel gives us the impression that he didn't want Sam to have heard him. That in itself is important; Castiel really only truly trusts Dean.

From Dean's end, we see he is still there for Castiel, and is able to help pull him out of himself. Castiel is not one to readily admit to things, especially his vulnerabilities, much like Dean. Dean doesn't express his vulnerabilities readily because of the way he was raised by his father; to be a man, to suck things up, etc. And it's similar with Castiel, who is this way do to what he thought his own "father" (God) wanted/needed him to be. So they can relate in this sense and it's perhaps why, and how, Dean is able to get Castiel to open up to him. __________________________________________________________________________________

RATING AFTER EPISODE: 5/10

[norahastuff]

I know that the Stands Destiel shirt doesn't mean ANYTHING for the show, but I *love* what it means about the ship's acceptance. It's pretty cool that it's getting talked about in a positive way right now. I have no idea what might or might not happen in s15 but the cautious positivity and openness that has eked out of people close to the show is really great! It makes me feel like D/C shippers aren't looked down on by everyone. It's a nice change from when the topic was banned!

Yeah what’s always bugged me the most about this whole thing is how strange the response to it has always been. I mean the show itself has addressed it and yet still there’s stigma around it.

Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, let’s say there is a version of the show that’s never had a hint of any kind of romantic tension between Dean and Cas (one where Dean never made him a mixtape I guess), and any “Destiel” content is purely a fan created thing, I still would never be able to understand the negative way it’s been handled in the past. Like seeing anything romantic between these two is a cardinal sin, and something we should never subject the poor actors to. The only reason it’s been treated this way, like it’s something wrong and embarrassing, is because it’s about the potential of romance between two dudes - and that’s always made me feel very uncomfortable.

I really can’t think of any non canon heterosexual pairing that’s expected to follow this rule of “never discuss it in any kind of public forum where the people involved in the show might see it.” Especially since I’ve gotten into fandom, it’s been really hard to deal with my feelings on how the general attitudes to the concept of Destiel have been expressed at times. Regardless of their intentions with it as an eventual textual development, the conversation around it really shouldn’t be so heated and stigmatised. How and why is it still ok to treat people like they are doing something wrong when they approach the topic of potentially more-than-platonic feelings between two characters of the same gender? It’s 2019 people! (sidenote: when did that actually happen? I feel like the years are all blending into one for me at this point :L )

So yeah, like you said, it doesn’t mean anything for the actual show, but the fact that during Pride month Stands put out this t - shirt is a genuinely nice thing, even just in terms of the conversation. It’s saying, yeah I know you guys are into this and there’s nothing wrong with seeing or liking the idea of this relationship between two characters just because they’re both dudes. Or, rather, one is a dude and the other is an inter-dimensional wavelength of celestial intent with no human concept of gender, in the body of a dude. 

Also I know next to nothing about Stands as a company, but I assume their goal is to make money. And, well, I expect they won’t be disappointed in that regard. But even with that, the fact that they recognise they have LGBTQ fans, and chose to spread some positivity and inclusiveness during pride is a nice development and I hope this leads, at least a little, to the conversation around Dean and Cas’ relationship to maybe start to become a little more open.

So yeah I essentially wrote this wall of text to completely agree with the conclusion you already came to in your first sentence :L  I feel the same way you do about this whole thing.

[sanctuaryforascrivener]

Gonna try and get some thoughts down on something that’s been bothering me about Good Omens and the reaction to it. Forgive me because I think this is going to be longer than I anticipate.

I generally keep to the fringes of discourse at best--I try to know what’s going on and stay informed, but gods preserve me I don’t want to get involved in any of it. I’ve also been a huge fan of the Good Omens book since my ex-girlfriend introduced me to it in high school. Like, to the extent that I literally read the entire book out loud, over the phone, to a friend who refused to read much of anything for fun. (He liked it a lot and made sure to message me when he saw they were making a miniseries, after a few years of sparse contact at best.) Shipper and ficcer that I am, I adore Aziraphale and Crowley as a dynamic, couple, friends, whatever--though to be honest there’s not a single character in the material that I dislike. It was the first Pratchett I read, and a book that is and has been near and dear to my heart for over ten years now. 

And now I’m seeing scattered posts and accusations that the miniseries is homophobic or queer-baiting because Aziraphale and Crowley don’t... kiss? Confess their love for each other? Are shown to have sexual relationships on screen? 

I’m sorry. What? 

Neil Gaiman’s response to this has been to maintain his position of Death of the Author--as he has with all his works. That he wrote what he wrote and you are welcome to interpret it however you so wish. He encourages and approves of fanfiction, including fanfiction of his works, but given the legal entanglements will not read any. From an artistic and authorial standpoint, he will not confirm one interpretation because doing so will then negate all the other equally valid headcanons, and he does not want to do that. I consider that integrity. 

He’s also maintained that, given Crowley and Aziraphale are not human, there is no reason to assume that our human definitions of gender or sexuality should or even can apply to them. And I think this is... where the heart of why this sudden debate makes me viscerally uncomfortable lies. 

Because I consider myself somewhere on the ace spectrum. And that, in many places on tumblr, seems to have become a sin in the last couple of years. Or at the least, it’s “not enough” to be considered “real LGBTQ+”. Look, actually asexual blogs--by which I mean bloggers who know they are asexual and talk a good deal about being so--have made more eloquent posts than I could hope to on the topic, so I won’t beat a dead horse. But what feels weird and deeply concerning to me is that this reading of Crowley and Aziraphale as “not gay enough” is that it feels a lot like that same gatekeeping I see and hear about from asexual, bisexual, pansexual, transgender blogs. Gaiman has said that neither of them are male or how we would think of male--so they’re trans--and has said that their relationship is loving and could easily be read as an asexual romance. 

The original book has a line that explicitly says “Angels are sexless unless they’re making an effort.” Given this was the late 80s when this was written and 1990 or ‘91 when it was published, sexless could mean sex or gender I think--but either way, they’re queer. They’re queer! They’re not cisgender or heterosexual! That is enough for them to be queer!

This is why I feel this is a little more than just "Why won’t you confirm my ship is canon” or “why won’t you admit it can be read that way”. A little more than the usual fandom drama, I mean. It feels way more like that gatekeeping. That they’re not queer enough. Would it be nice to have seen an explicit “I love you” or a kiss? Sure, I would never reject more confirmation or more shippy content. But what I’ve seen of this reaction... isn’t that. 

Queer-baiting is when the writers of the show try to lure fandom into consuming more content by promising canon queerness and then denying that was ever the case, or forcing it into heterosexual relationships. Probably the most obvious or most infamous example would be Dean Winchester and Castiel of Supernatural, where the writers are well aware that a huge faction of their fanbase views them as a romantic couple and gives out just enough hints that maybe it’ll be #confirmed this next episode, or this next season, to make sure they keep giving them their views and their money, with no intent of actually making that the case. Sherlock and John, from BBC’s Sherlock would likely be another excellent example. 

Good Omens does not remotely read to me as queer-baiting. At all. It’s a love story. Gaiman has confirmed that much, especially in the TV series, but the thing is, he shouldn’t have had to. I watch the two of them interact and it’s achingly obvious how deeply they care for each other. There’s no “Oh, no homo” or “Oh, I’m always out tempting women” or a girlfriend shoehorned in at the last minute or anything of the sort. It’s not explicit “and the angel and the demon went off and had lots of sex” because it doesn’t have to be. 

A piece of advice on writing romances that I picked up a long time ago and kind of stuck with me: if your couple has to kiss for the reader to know they’re in love, you’re doing something wrong. 

With no exaggeration, this is one of the most well written couples I have ever had the pleasure of reading. They’re complete idiots and I love them, and the fact that people are raging about it because it’s canonically asexual and that’s not enough makes me afraid.