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nyerusnova · 1 year ago

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Glad to see that Tim being a giant Dick Grayson fanboy is finally being highlighted again, and sparking more discussion especially on their early relationship! (Please gimme more!!! I love them so much, augh!)

Probably as a result of that surge, there seems to be reciprocal chatter on the topic of how young Tim actually felt towards Jason, too. It's honestly pretty interesting, because it's more nuanced than it appears at first glance.

Which means it's very fun to dissect! ✨

There's a degree of subjectivity to keep in mind, because readers are going to have different interpretations of the same scenes, or will pull from entirely different scenes than one another to form their individual view on this topic. That's just how it is in comic book fandom, for many things! Regardless, in this case... if the scale ranges from the extreme of "Jason was Tim's Robin" to the other extreme of "Tim actually hated Jason [as Robin] or thought he was a loser that got himself killed" — the actual truth is closer to the middle, as is often the case.

At least, in my opinion.

Mainly I want to focus on those relatively early days with this post, to highlight Tim's initial(-ish) feelings towards his heroes, and touch on the point at which they really begin to change. This turned into a very long post, though. Brevity is beyond my skill, so grab snacks and water lol. Transcripts for each image will be posted at the very end under the cut.

So, the two storylines I want to cover are "Rite of Passage," which is rolls into "Identity Crisis." (NOT to be confused with the major crossover event "Identity Crisis™" which came years later, and is where Jack Drake dies.... But it sure is an interesting coincidence that Tim deals with the loss of each parent in two similarly named stories!) These take place before Tim is even Robin, and I'll be considering them as one arc for this post.

Detective Comics vol. 1 #618 (July, 1990) -- Pages 1 & 2

"When Gotham needed him, he was there. When the Batman needed him, he was there. He was a hero."

"One day, I'll be as good as Jason. One day I'll wear the suit."

To start off, we have this opening from "Rite of Passage." Tim is still in training here, mainly helping Bruce with minor stuff from the cave. His parents are off traveling, alive and well as of these next few pages. He's still bright-eyed and full of wonder. An extraordinarily weird but ultimately innocent kid.

So his view on Jason is positive and fairly simple: a hero, and someone to look up to as Robin. Clearly, Tim here doesn't think Jason was deficient in his role, either as a protector of Gotham or as Batman's trusted partner.

Moreover, Tim already held Dick in very high regard because he was amazingly skilled before he became Robin. To Tim, that's not something he'll ever be able to achieve. Meanwhile, Jason wasn't like that. He was a regular kid without crazy acrobatic training since practically birth. Yet he still went on to be a hero—which is obviously motivational for Tim who finds himself in similar shoes.

It's true that Tim only ever knew or thought of Jason as Robin, and idolized him in that regard. But that's kind of all that mattered to him at that point, because he was this kid who was utterly star-struck by his heroes. Even if he's technically aware of their shortcomings as people, it's overshadowed by the hero-worship.

It was kind of the same with Bruce as Batman at first. (Which was still enough for Tim to risk life and limb to help his beloved hero, before Bruce even knew his name.) Dick was the only one Tim had any sort of "personal" relationship with beforehand, so there is an extra level of attachment—and hence why it was the nidus for his obsession with Batman. Yet even then, it wasn't like he actually knew anything about Dick as a person until later. Until then, Tim's ideas of him were all he had, too. With Jason, Tim just didn't get to know him at any point before his return (oof), apart from what he heard over the years secondhand (also oof).

Ultimately, it's the loss of innocence—along with the ricocheting bullet that is the unresolved guilt of those around him—that begins to change Tim's perception. Not just of Jason, but of things in general.

Batman vol. 1 #455 (Oct., 1990) -- Page 13

"I know why they do it now. Why they put on the suits, and the masks, and go out into the night. They're angry, they're full of rage. They want to hit back."

Losing his mother was a major shift for Tim, obviously. This is right after the previous storyline, and Tim's had the worst week or two of his life (so far). His monologue here is a reference to what happened to both Dick and Jason. The unbearable pain of loss, the rage masking the grief underneath. And importantly, that he feels both of them were justified in their anger. (And Bruce too, indirectly.)

The major theme of the aptly named "Identity Crisis" is to mirror aspects of Dick and Jason and Tim's lives—to show how they converged onto the same tragic road. It's something that Tim notices early in the story, and was frightened by. Now, horrifically, it's become a part of him as well. His parents are gone, and he was entirely helpless to do anything about it. Dick was the same way, Jason was the same way. The cycle is repeated.

In particular, the part about him wanting to go to Haiti for revenge—for his mother—sort of struck me as being an intentional parallel to Jason and Ethiopia. It's a bit of a stretch, especially in isolation, so others may see it differently (e.g. the angry ramblings of a grieving child that does sound like something anyone might say). But it always stuck out to me because of how much Tim is compared directly to Jason in this arc. More on that below.

It's not something I can really give an accurate feel of because it's a lot of subtle things that begin to add up, so I'd encourage folks to read this arc themselves to see what I mean. (Or maybe you'll still disagree which is fine too lol.) Again, many things are in reference to both Dick and Jason in relation to Tim, but it's weighted more on Jason's side.

Batman vol. 1 #455 (Oct., 1990) -- Page 18

"You think my anger will boil over, the way Jason's did. I can assure you, it won't!"

Tim's grief has begun to pull away the veil of idealism that enshrouded his heroes in his mind. It doesn't apply only to Jason, but to the rest of them. Plus add the fact that Tim's keenly aware that he's being managed, even if the adults around him are careful to not outright say certain things. He still knows.

Bruce, Dick, and Alfred are all worried about Tim potentially turning into "another Jason." They (and mainly Bruce) caution Tim to not ignore his emotions, but they're still concerned that he may be overly eager to prove himself in order to cope, and could get hurt or killed as a result. While they aren't wrong for their caution—especially at how unsettlingly similar all the circumstances are—they aren't very subtle about the elephant in the room.

Imagine how that would affect Tim's perception of his predecessor, especially when he's in the midst of a traumatic event he hasn't had time to fully process. The negative association is pretty much inevitable.

Tim's known from day one that he's walking in Jason's shadow, and now it's become inescapable. Tim went from seeing Jason as a goal to reach, to feeling that unless he surpasses him, he wasn't going to be taken seriously by anyone. However, as of this arc, Tim doesn't even fully come to that point yet.

Batman vol. 1 #456 (Nov., 1990) -- Pages 14 & 15

"Drop-outs don't make it. And dead heroes are no use to anyone!"

It's really easy to take away "Tim totally thought Jason got himself killed" as the main thing here, but I think that's missing the forest for the trees.

First some context: Bruce has gone out on a mission to get Scarecrow, and expressly forbade Tim from doing any shenanigans. Meanwhile, Tim is grappling with wanting to prove himself and trying to help Bruce from the cave, all while trying to deal with his emotions. At some point, he falls asleep and ends up having like... exhaustion-grief hallucinations of Dick!Robin and Jason!Robin who confusingly caution yet encourage him. The main theme of this part is facing your fears.

Depending on how you want to interpret the intent of Jason's dialogue here, you could go several ways with it. Ranging from "writer's feelings towards Jason" to "a peek into Tim's mind as his fears manifest as visions of his heroes" or some mixture thereof.

Though Tim argues with Bruce that Batman needs a Robin, we're shown that Tim is understandably scared of joining Batman's "war." He's still not willing to let Bruce go it alone, though, and that's something he feels more strongly than his fear.

Meanwhile, hallucination!Jason's warnings are a lamentation of what happened to him in a way, but it actually exactly describes Tim's current situation even more so. Unlike Jason, Tim is under-trained, under-experienced, doesn't even have a suit of his own yet. But like Jason, he can't sit by and do nothing while someone he cares about is in danger. Tim knows that if he goes out there, he will probably get himself killed, and it will be his own fault. So he's about to disobey Batman's orders, and fly right into danger. If that got Jason killed, then Tim—who is in a way worse position experience-wise—has every chance of ending up the same.

Like... it's about Jason, but it's also about Tim. It's Tim's worst fears made manifest, via the representation of why he is even here in the first place (Jason's death).

That's my theory anyway, but perhaps this is an overly charitable reading of this scene on my end. (Not that I think that makes me wrong lol.) However given that Grant wrote both parts of this arc, and the beginning of which is especially favorable towards Jason, it certainly is something to ponder. I have a lot of thoughts on it I can't expand on here tbh but perhaps that'll be another post.

Anyway, returning to the point of the similarities vs differences between Tim and Jason: since this is the arc that solidified Tim as the next Robin in comic continuity, it makes sense that the writers really pushed the comparisons between the two of them, specifically. (Even though Dick was pretty similar, as going against Batman's orders is the Robin thing to do, it's not his shoes Tim is directly filling.) So making Tim's "debut" story arc mirror Jason's "swansong" is an obvious narrative choice.

To drive home the parallels, I wanted to include this panel from just a few pages prior to the "daydream":

Batman vol. 1 #456 (Nov., 1990) -- Page 9

"The suit is magic."

That so distressingly close to Jason's famous "being Robin gives me magic" line (Batman #385, page 6). Given all the previous context, it's hard for me to just dismiss it as pure coincidence. Even if it is, the point still stands. Tim is shown having the some of the same heartbreakingly naive views as Jason once did, right in front of Jason's memorial, just as he's about to go and run off into the night against orders.

I think that speaks for itself. There's a lot to take away from it, if you so choose. Especially given the context of that specific Jason arc.

Alright, back to the main course:

So in the end, Tim actually goes out in civvies and a ski mask because if he fails, then at least he wouldn't bring shame to Robin's legacy™. When he gets fear gassed saving Batman, it's once again both Dick and Jason that he hallucinates encouraging him to push past his fear. (Shout out to the fact that he's literally more afraid of tarnishing the legacy of Batman & Robin than he is of dying.... I'm sure this will not be a recurring thing for him in the future.)

Tim's ideology is shown to be similar to Jason's, and the actions Tim ultimately takes are similar to Jason's... but the outcome is different. And it really isn't just "Tim succeeded where Jason failed." At least, that's not what I took away from this. Rather, Tim had no reason to succeed any more than he had to fail, just that he did. Luck combined with caution because he knew what happened to his predecessor, and the fact that Batman was there to finish the job all made the difference.

You could say (and I know some will) that it's just classic Jason character assassination and the writers trying to implore readers that this new kid is different we promise pls don't hate us look how much better he is! But in this case, that feels like it undermines the whole point of this story. It doesn't fit with what the characters actually say.

Thus, we return to the question of how Tim felt towards his predecessor. And the answer is different from where we started, because Tim is different. Not that different though. Because even though at this point Tim—like all the adults around him—has probably attributed Jason "going off on his own" being what led to his death, Tim still thought of him as a hero to look up to. It's about Robin, first and foremost, yes. But Tim is fully aware of the people who made that suit mean what it does, because it's all intertwined.

Batman vol. 1 #457 (Dec., 1990) -- Page 20

"I mean--Dick made it into a symbol the whole world knows. Jason gave his life for it."

Even further, Tim thinks of it in terms of Jason having given his life for what he believed in, for the legacy that now falls to Tim. There's a sense of gravitas there. He's afraid of failing both the Robins who came before him.

Ultimately do I think Tim adored and loved Jason on the same level as Dick or something? No. It's not comparable. (Dick was like part of some of Tim's earliest memories and everything! They have a really unique bond ok.) Yet Tim was also far from thinking poorly of Jason so early on. Frankly, it seems that Tim thought of Jason as a noble hero and a cautionary tale. Yes he took risks and sometimes went too far, generally stuff that Tim doesn't want to repeat and all that. At the same time, Tim still saw him as someone whose legacy and memory was worth honoring.

It's complicated, which is why I like it so much—because it feels real. Having conflicting feelings towards someone is... so human. Especially someone you never got to know, yet who plays such an integral role in your life via the shadow of their death. How can you feel anything but complicated towards them?

It has to be said that, yes, Tim's views—even before Jason's return—change over the years. He becomes more jaded as a person and is surrounded by people who are even more jaded than him... and who often mention Jason as the "failed Robin." It's something that's hung over Tim's head all the damn time. The curse of the Robin mantle.

So it shouldn't come as a surprise that Tim's idea of him becomes more akin to "sounds like a skill issue" as the years go by. All bets are off after Jason's return, and the Titans Tower Incident™. At that point it's firmly "I am better than you, loser" lmao.

And... that's all without getting too into things like authorial intent and general "moods" of different DC writers towards Jason at a given point. Or retcons that played a role in his characterization and how other characters talk about him, depending on what "era" you're reading. That's way beyond the scope of this post though!

TLDR; even though young Tim Drake was obsessed with Dick Grayson as Robin, he still looked up to Jason Todd as well. He didn't think of Jason as a cringefail loser until later. :)

(image dialogue transcripts under cut ↓)

Dialogue Transcript for Image 1 (Detective Comics vol. 1 #618 -- Page 1):

Narration box (Tim): When Gotham needed him, he was there. When the Batman needed him, he was there. He was a hero.

Dialogue Transcript for Image 2 (Detective Comics vol. 1 #618 -- Page 2):

(Scene continued from previous page)

Narration box: But he was nothing special, really. Just a boy, who was taught--trained--brought to his full potential by someone who knew how. Just a boy... like me. I know I can do it. I know I can. One day I'll be as good as Jason. One day I'll wear the suit. One day I'll be a hero.

Dialogue Transcript for Image 3 (Batman vol. 1 #455 -- Page 13):

Tim: I hate him! I hate him! I know why they do it now. Why they put on the suits, and the masks, and go out into the night. They're angry. Full of rage. They want to hit back. They want to fill the hole that's burning inside them.

Bruce: There's more to it than that, son. Much more.

Tim: I know. It's just--I feel--like going to Haiti myself and strangling that creep with my bare hands!

Bruce: The Obeah Man will spend the rest of his life in a prison hospital. He's history. Forget him! But don't fight against your anger. It's natural. Accept it. Live with it. One day it'll be your friend.

Dialogue Transcript for Image 4 (Batman vol. 1 #455 -- Panels from page 18):

Tim: Because you think my mother's death has upset me too much. Well, it did. But I've taken your words to heart. I can cope. You think my anger will boil over, the way Jason's did. I can assure you, it won't. But that doesn't make any difference, does it? Why can't you have a little faith in me?

Dialogue Transcript for Image 5 (Batman vol. 1 #456 -- Page 14):

Narration box (Tim): Blast it! My head's starting to swim. I'm about ready to give up. I almost wish I'd never heard of Batman and Robin!

Vision Dick: Heroes never give up, Tim.

Vision Jason: You know that.

Tim: Dick--! Jason Todd!

Vision Dick: You're training to fight in a war, Tim. It'll last all your life. No matter what, you have to go on fighting.

Vision Jason: Drop-outs don't make it. And dead heroes are no use to anyone! I thought I knew better than Batman. I thought I could run before I could walk. I killed myself, Tim. Because I couldn't wait. Because I couldn't think it through.

Dialogue Transcript for Image 6 (Batman vol. 1 #456 -- Page 15):

(Scene continued from previous page)

Vision Dick: Think, Tim. Concentrate!

Vision Jason: You can do it.

Both: You can do it!

Tim, waking up: What--? Robin...?

Narration box (Tim): I must have been daydreaming. They're right, though. There's a solution to everything. I can find it! So here I go again... Whim. Caprice. Doing something without forethought.

Dialogue Transcript for Image 7 (Batman vol. 1 #456 -- Panel from page 9):

Narration box (Tim): The suit is magic. It gives you power. It hides your weakness. It makes you give it everything you've got. It makes you a hero. If only I could!

Dialogue Transcript for Image 8 (Batman vol. 1 #457 -- Page 20):

Bruce: Are you afraid of it?

Tim: No. It isn't fear. It's more... the suit carries so much history. I mean--Dick made it into a symbol the whole world knows. Jason gave his life for it. Failing them--what they fought so hard to build--that's what worries me!

Bruce: I appreciate that, Tim. That costume weighs a whole lot more than any symbol should... and I'd be failing you if I expected you to bear that weight. So... let me know what you think.

Narration box: A mask has a double edged, he said. It hides your own anxiety as it strikes fear into your enemy.

#tim drake #jason todd #dcu #dc comcis #batfamily #meta #I'm so sorry this post got out of hand fr #it was meant to be a quick drabble with some comic panels and instead i just...... kept going #this post is specifically for my one (1) bestie who cares and the like 2 ppl who might be as insane as me about Timmy #idk why I'm like this im just obsessed with Tim's relationship with early Batfam & co lately???#late 80 and early 90s comics my beloveds......#anyway if this gets more than 5 notes i'll be shocked and scared lol #nyerus.txt #text post #long post

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fancyfade · 2 years ago

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Talia's characterization:

Okay so. Very long set of notes after having read all of Ra’s and Talia’s appearances from the first appearance (including Dr Darrk’s prelude stuff) to Bride of the Demon. This was initially going to include all my notes but actually limiting this post so that it won’t be super duper long. (Ra's, Bruce, League's means)

Talia is wiling to kill people in self defense (though the first time she kills someone, in 'Tec 411 to defend Batman, she is sad afterwards). She also expresses a lot of wanting to kill the guy she believed killed her dad, however doesn't actually get the chance to kill him. This trait is explored again when she really wants to kill the guy who killed her mom in Son of the Demon.

Talia as written by Denny O'neil is generally fine going along with her dads plans and inconveniencing Batman. She helps her dad frame Batman for her murder to get her dad out of prison (she offers him sanctuary with her dad when he is being hunted and says that Bruce should be honored b/c Ra's would go to such lengths for no one else). She erases a guy's memory to prevent him from revealing their plans (and brushes it off with "oh silly me I used the memory erasing solution instead of the truth serum'). We do see Talia as written by O'neil voice her disagreement on orders to kill Batman, and she vocally disagrees with Ra's using Batman in 'tec 485 (the LoA plot) but does not do anything to stop him. When her dad is in prison, she mentions wanting to rebuild her father's dream and free him from prison. She also holds a gun on Ra's to save Bruce in DC Special Series 15.

When Ra's is in prison, Talia works to get him out, both with the aforementioned murder-framing plot, and before that, stealing from the treasury of Swawak, one of DC's fictionalized nations. However in this plotline (the stealing one) she quickly abandons her goal when she sees the penguin has kidnapped the child king of the country and she tries to comfort the kid and protect him from Penguin.

Consistent to O'neil's interpretation, Wolfman's Talia also seems pretty willing to help Ra's unless Batman's life is in danger, and she conveniently accidentally/'accidentally' kills someone who was using a kid as a hostage to save the kid but also possibly cover up her father's involvement is what wolfman seemed to imply.

However Ra's is more overtly manipulative to Talia under Wolfman. She is 150 years old here and reliant on an anti-aging serum that Ra's provides her that she says is 'like a narcotic'.

When Ra's dies: Ra's appears dead at the end of the LoA vs LoS war plotline, Talia does not talk much about it and tries to cheer Bruce up. She doesn't seem sad about him dying at the end of Wolfman's plotline either, she says maybe it was for the best because he preferred to die in battle. Under Barr's writing Talia is mad at Bruce for causing her father's death. She says that she no longer wishes to be married to him and leaves.

Barr is also the first writer who shows Talia actively working against Ra's before Batman gets involved. She is undercover in a hospital trying to find out about the Crimson Sun plot thing he's using to commit mass murder.

Talia under Moench and Barr seems to be more willing to posit her conflict with her father as ideological (and also kind of fatalistic) rather than romantically motivated. She states under Barr that she does not want to live in a world w/o Bruce and under Moench that she would rather die in Bruce's world than live in her father's.

When Denny O'neil writes Talia again after Son of the Demon, talia offers batman all that she is and to foresake her father and live with him under any conditions. She says that if bruce loves her this is their only chance at happiness. Bruce says no because I could never forget you're his daughter and he'd have to stop being who he is. This is likely O'neil wanting to re-emphasize the love plot (and emphasize the parable batman is supposed to be learning about how he won't let himself be happy :/). a way it could make sense for Talia's character is if this is a result of depression/regret she feels after giving her kid up in Son of the Demon, but I am not sure the writer intended that. Later, it is possibly implied that Talia wants to tell Bruce about the baby in Bride of the Demon. She says “I never told you… what fully transpired at our last meeting…” and it makes more sense to me that she's talking about the last thing written by Mike Barr, rather than their last meeting period (which was where she offers to do whatever Batman wants, written by O'neil)

Talia (as written by Mike Barr) feels compelled to prove her loyalty to her father. She says this is part of the reason she wants to kill Qayin in son of the demon, and she is looking for a mission to help him with in bride of the demon. She says to Batman “Cease your prattling! For years, I thought I loved you! I betrayed my believes – my father – my own flesh! For you! But no more!” (however it is later implied that some of this is not really 100% how she feels as she does also volunteer to help Batman pretty quickly after this, offering herself as a hostage against her father's guys).

Bit that didn't fit anywhere: Talia's description of her dad “he is so powerful. He can bring the dead back to life, restore the ecological balance to an entire planet… but he could not save my mother.”

#talia al ghul #dc comics #ras al ghul #batman 1940 #detective comics 1937 #character meta

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distort-opia · 2 years ago

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Alright, got some thoughts to exorcise about Khoa's most recent appearance. Inevitably there'll be spoilers about Batman Inc., current events in the main Batman run, and some speculation regarding Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing, so I'm putting everything under the cut.

In Batman Inc. (2022) #5, we get Ghostmaker choosing not to kill Phantom-One after defeating him, and saying this:

Batman Inc. (2022) #5

And at the end, he also says "Batman was right... some people deserve second chances."

This is particularly interesting because Bruce's initial deal with Khoa, in Batman (2016) #105, is "My only rule is that you don't kill in my city." And then, after Khoa was given control of Batman Incorporated and he started training Clownhunter, we get this bit:

Shadow War Zone #1

"That's Batman's rule for you. I can get away with it."

So. I can't help wondering what exactly was going on in Khoa's head in Batman Inc. (2022) #5, keeping this in mind. Because... who the hell would've been dumb enough to kill Phantom-One in that situation, promises to a friend or not?

Killing Phantom-One would've very likely turned at least half of the people there against him, some of them willing to jump on any excuse to attack-- while he was already injured. Not only that, it might've severed his connections to Batman Incorporated, which Bruce left to him to deal with. Hence, I think it's tough to say how truthful Khoa was in his words. He didn't seem to take issue with killing before, seemingly quite sure he'd get away with it. One could argue this is the culmination of the arc, all the doubts about Ghostmaker as a person and a leader being resolved, but it might've been more impactful if Khoa didn't know the rest of Batman Inc. was there, or the Fallen, Oryx, and all the others who'd been so impacted by Ghostmaker's past actions. If it'd been just him, Phantom-One and Clownhunter, with the others able to witness somehow, his choice not to kill Phantom-One would've been more solid as legitimate character development, and not a decision that can be interpreted as self-serving.

However, I'm not counting it as a criticism to Brisson's writing, since the previews of Batman Inc. (2022) #6 and #7 are intriguing, and only seem to amp up the difficulty of Khoa's decision to keep to his promise and not kill... especially since Bruce is "dead". As groundwork, No More Teachers serves nicely for a more extended character development arc, so I'm hoping it'll hit a more satisfying conclusion after #7, because the preview is very intriguing:

What the hell does "road to Joker Inc." mean? Seeing as we've got multiple Jokers going around in Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing, maybe the reveal will be that Joker is imitating Bruce and has chosen to create a Joker for each city there's a Batman in Batman Inc. for; would kind of explain why one Joker left Gotham and went to L.A. That still leaves me wondering where the hell the real Joker is and what he's doing (maybe my joking theory that he's in a cloning tank somewhere hallucinating all the weird mpreg side-stories isn't that far off). I can only hope that while Bruce is still gone, Khoa (and Bao in whatever capacity) get the chance to kill Joker, since that... would be an excellent culmination to so many elements of their story so far. And then have to make a choice, since they'd both know Bruce's no-killing rule has always extended to Joker too. Though since multiple Jokers are around and taking into account the mention of Joker Inc., I'm booing so hard if either Bao or Khoa kill a fake Joker. Make it the real thing or nothing! We got Jason killing a fake Joker in The Three Jokers, it's been done.

#...I'm kinda excited for whatever's happening in Batman stories right now #is this even meta or just me going [insert the conspiracy board meme of Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia] with multiple comic #rants.txt #spoilers #comic spoilers #batman #bruce wayne #ghostmaker #ghostmaker meta #minhkhoa khan #joker #batman inc 2022

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star-anise · 3 years ago

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I read your post about trauma and I'm trying to make sense of my parents treatment of me as well as my own diagnoses. Is anxiety itself trauma? Or a result of trauma? Its the stress response itself not calming down. I think I was and am emotionally neglected. My parents are not sympathetic. I'm adhd anxiety depression my whole life. That post about learning new social situation techniques really resonated. What are the treatments for neglect? Besides plain old cbt and mindfulness and anti anxiety meds

Trigger warning: Child abuse, child neglect, emotional neglect

Anxiety can happen because of a wide variety of reasons, from medical to situational to genetic. It could happen out of the blue to a totally healthy adult. Or it might be a symptom of trauma and a bad childhood. PTSD used to be classified as a kind of anxiety disorder, but we now understand it's a lot more complicated.

I'm very sorry your family aren't sympathetic and don't get what's up with you. I want to make it very clear that it is not your fault that they aren't sympathetic.

It's not your fault for not explaining things clearly enough. It's not your fault for not being a more lovable child. It's not your fault for being emotional or oversensitive. It's not your fault for not communicating your needs in a way they can hear. Their treatment of you is not your fault.

That's important not just because it feels good to be absolved of blame. It's not a meaningless platitude. It's a nicer coating on what can sometimes be a very bleak truth. That truth is:

There is nothing you can do to make your family be sympathetic to you.

I am so, so, so sorry. You can spend your entire life turning backflips, you can learn interpretive dance, you can become the world's leading expert in your field, you can get hit by a car and find out you have cancer, you can be as sympathetic and understanding about their reasons for neglecting you as they could possibly want, you could do everything in your power to be a good child, and none of that will ever give you the power to make your parents be sympathetic to you and what you've been through.

Sometimes parents do learn and grow and change and work to repair the damage done while their kids were children. But that's because of their own issues and experiences and reasons, not because of anything their children have done. Many parents keep being oblivious and neglectful even when their children have become everything a parent could ever hope for.

Actually, an amazing number of my adult neurodivergent friends have had the absolutely excruciating experience of hearing their parents say, in essence, "Hey adult child! The other day someone I respect way more than you told me about [your condition], and I was astonished! They told me that thing you've been telling me for years, and it blew my mind. I now realize that this is a real part of your life! Wow, it sure would have made a difference if I'd done that thing you've been begging me to do for years now, huh? Hey, have you heard about this handy behavioural technique you've been doing every goddamn day of your adult life? It sounds like it would really help!"

Like, even if your parents ever Get It about your specific disorders and conditions, they're extremely likely to salvage their self-esteem by refusing to ever seriously acknowledge how much it's hurt that they've failed you.

And what that means is: You have to plan the rest of your life as if they will never be sympathetic.

That might mean never giving them any say over your medical care or personal life choices. It might mean not living with them, not turning to them when you need a supportive community, or not letting them play a large role in the lives of any children you yourself may have. It might mean having to build your own support network that doesn't include your family at all, because you can't count on them to care when you're in distress. It can really suck to have to keep giving up the dream that one day you'll be able to count on your family to nurture you emotionally, but I promise that it sucks less than being continually disappointed with no backup plan.

Researching emotional neglect can be really difficult because a lot of the best research psychology as a field has achieved on the topic comes from really extreme forms of neglect and abuse. Exactly the kind of neglect and abuse that society waves in the face of the "merely" emotionally neglected: "So what if you didn't get hugged enough! You had enough to eat, a roof over your head, and they never hit you! They weren't even mean or malicious! Stop whining!"

And... look, if you've just broken your legs and you're in a wheelchair, who would you rather learn about using a wheelchair from: someone who can easily walk everywhere all the time, or a double amputee who's been using a wheelchair for years? The first person can probably get around more easily, but the second one can tell you a lot more about the specific challenges and skills that will be central to this phase of your life.

That's the frame I propose for research: Your life might not have been as bad as the case studies you read (though it's probably worse than your family is willing to admit, because invalidation is itself a form of emotional neglect, and this is so common there's even a poem about it) but the issues they encounter and the skills they require are probably useful to you, too.

With that in mind, check out books about early childhood neglect and trauma like The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog by Bruce Perry, which talks about the parts of the brain and developmental stages that can be impaired by toxic stress in childhood, and the various forms of treatment that can address each one.

As far as CBT, remember to focus on behaviour, not just cognition. Reading about using touch to self-soothe is good, but less powerful than using that knowledge to find a blanket you love to touch, and wrapping yourself up in it whenever you're upset. Neglect means that you failed to get repeated, predictable experiences of being comforted. Healing therefore means getting that practice in as an adult: Creating thousands of daily, repetitive experiences of being cared about. Caring about yourself, and finding people who will care about you.

Maybe also give Dialectical Behaviour Therapy workbooks a try? They're designed for Borderline Personality Disorder, which can be seen as a specific subset of complex trauma. Like, if the effects of childhood abuse and neglect were a rainbow, BPD might be red-orange. But what makes DBT useful is that it has examined which skills and coping mechanisms vital to emotional health people with BPD most commonly weren't taught/never learned/need more practice on. The curriculum might not overlap completely with your own needs if you fall into the yellow, green, blue, or violet aspects of C-PTSD, but it's a good starting place when you're inventorying skills and habits you want to strengthen.

Good luck? I hope this helps!

#staranise original #trauma tw #child abuse tw #child neglect tw #invalidating environments tw #emotional neglect #long post

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sky-berrie · 3 years ago

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How would the batboys react to a female SO with Paranoid Personality Disorder?

Hi there!

Thanks so much for the ask. I hope this is okay :)

-Sky

Bruce

As a person living with paranoid personality disorder, you might be terrified that people are out to harm you. Your place of residence, Gotham city, does nothing but exacerbate your paranoid thought patterns, since criminals run rampant through the streets. It’s hard to distinguish between paranoid thoughts and substantiated concerns. Is that sketchy person with the full face covering one of Black Mask’s False Face Society members sent to abduct you, or are they just a conscientious citizen taking extra precautions to avoid contracting or transmitting the COVID virus? Being in a state of constant fear prevents you from living your life to the fullest. Luckily, your S/O happens to be Batman in his free time.

Bruce eases your mind just with his presence. He’s probably the smartest, strongest, and most resourceful person you know and being with him makes you feel safe. Bruce is the kind of person who you’d blindly listen to during an emergency – if he told you to jump out of a burning plane, you’d do it without a second thought because he’s never let you down in the past and you’re confident that he never will in the future. If you’re feeling fearful in public, Bruce will grab your hand or put an arm around you securely and soothingly whisper in your ear that he’s right here and there’s nothing to worry about. Having paranoid thoughts means that it’s difficult to reason with you, so you probably aren’t convinced that there is no threat, but you do experience some relief from his soft touch and gentle words. He’ll ask if you want to leave and he’ll take you to your safe space. If you’re feeling fearful in private, Bruce will hold you close and rub your back to reduce your anxiety. If you’re by yourself and start to have those racing, panicked paranoid thoughts, you can always call Bruce. He’ll drop whatever he is doing and come take care of you.

Bruce will teach you self defense to help you feel more comfortable around people. He won’t arm you with any dangerous weapons because he doesn’t want an innocent person to get hurt if you get spooked. Bruce will ask if you want to move into the manor since it has strong security and comes with several vigilantes. If you would rather stay at your own place, Bruce will install a variety of safety systems to make you feel protected. He’ll even spend most nights at your place so you can sleep peacefully. Overall, Bruce is like your lifeline. He’ll know just what to do to help you through your difficult thoughts.

Dick

Dick is a social butterfly who’s had his fair share of romantic partners in the past so it’s natural for you to feel jealous when he spends time with other people. Dick will adamantly declare that he’s with you and only you. At first you might try to ignore the prickly feeling of jealousy because you don’t want to come off as a possessive S/O, but the clues accumulate and suggest that he’s cheating on you. For example, he’ll rarely spend the night with you. You’ll catch him sneaking into bed at ungodly hours of the morning. When confronted, he’ll make up an excuse that he just went to get a drink of water or use the bathroom. You’ll spot bruises scattered over his chest knowing you definitely did not leave those there. He’ll play it off as a gym injury.

When you raise your suspicions, Dick is hesitant to explain. You take this as confirmation of infidelity and you’re ready to walk out. At that point, he has no choice but to come clean about his secret identity as Nightwing. That sounds farfetched and you likely think he’s a pathological liar. Finally, Dick proves it to you and explains that he didn’t want you to be dragged into his dangerous nightlife. While you accept that as the truth, you’ll always wonder if he’s hiding more secrets. Furthermore, you’re probably pissed that he was gaslighting you. Dick will do everything he can to make it up to you. He’ll apologize profusely and in extravagant ways, be more transparent, and shower you with excessive love and affection. It might take a long time, but eventually Dick will worm his way back into your good graces.

It doesn’t take long for the green-eyed monster to rear its’ ugly head again. Now that you’re in the know, you’re hyperaware of the attractive vigilantes that Dick works with and it’s emotionally draining to be jealous all the time. You don’t want to be the type of person who tries to control their partner’s life, but when the suffering becomes too much to bear, you might ask him to stop seeing certain people. Dick will calmly assure you that there isn’t anything going on with any of his vigilante friends. If that doesn’t appease you, he’ll suggest that you hang out with the team and get to know them. He hopes that you’ll see that there aren’t any romantic feelings between them. Whatever you do, please don’t force him to choose between you and his hero life. It will tear him apart.

Jason

Trust is very important to Jason. He doesn’t trust many people as it is and needs a S/O who he can trust wholeheartedly and who will trust him in return. He believes that this relationship will fail if you don’t have confidence in each other. He’ll take it personally if you distrust him. Jason will get defensive and frustrated if you accuse him of being unfaithful, especially if you don’t have a shred of evidence to support your claims. He’ll be offended and deeply hurt that you think so negatively of him but once he’s had some time to cool off, he’ll be able to process everything more objectively. He’ll accept that you can’t control the way you feel. You’d explained it to him once that you do trust him, but there’s a separate voice in your head that tells you otherwise. Jason won’t give up on you though. He’ll come up with a proposition - he’ll agree to install a tracking app on his phone so you can monitor his whereabouts if you’ll promise to work on learning to trust him, whether it be via professional psychotherapy or reading self-help books.

On the other hand, if Jason is one of the only people you trust, he’ll be elated to know that you two have built such a strong connection. It’ll be easy to confide in him because he’ll gladly listen to your worried thoughts with no judgement. At first, he’ll reassure you that nothing bad is going to happen to you – he’s Red Hood and nobody is going to pull anything on you if they value their life. Eventually he’ll realize that trying to reason with you isn’t helpful so he’ll stick to active listening when you’re experiencing paranoid thoughts.

However, if Jason is fresh out of the pit and emotionally unstable, you two will probably bond over your mutual distrust and cynicism about the world. Although you and Jason will get along exceptionally well, it’s possible that your irrational thoughts may feed each other’s paranoia and exacerbate the feelings of mistrust and suspicion. If you find yourself unable to let things go, feel free to vent away when you’re with Jason. He is the king of holding grudges, so he’ll probably support you and even join in on trash talking that person with you when you’re angry. Learning to forgive and forget is something you and Jason can work on together. In a way, it brings you two closer together since you understand each other on a level that others can’t begin to comprehend.

Tim

Tim very compassionate and patient; however, he’s afraid of triggering you so he’s often walking on eggshells around you. He just wants to be the perfect supportive S/O for you and doesn’t want to mess up the relationship. His worst offense (in your eyes) is using ambiguous language that lends to multiple interpretations. For example, he might innocently compliment your clothes/hair/makeup and you might assume that he only likes you for your appearance or that he’s implying that you’re vain for wanting to look nice. The moment you shoot him daggers, he’s realized his mistake and starts to furiously backpedal. He tries to explain himself, but he usually ends up digging himself a deeper hole. Eventually, he gets better at expressing his thoughts carefully so that they can’t be misconstrued.

Tim diligently tries to learn your other triggers and how to help. When you’re stuck in a cycle of paranoid thoughts, Tim will get you to focus on what’s real instead of trying to make you see sense. He’ll help you relax by walking you through breathing exercises, playing soothing music, or whatever strategies you find helpful.

Tim isn’t proud of this, but he’s resorted to deceiving you when necessary. For instance, if you’re experiencing paranoid thought patterns and want to be alone, Tim will hesitantly leave, but he’ll probably secretly monitor you only because he’s worried about your safety. If you’re afraid that others are reading your mind, he might pretend that he invented an anti-mindreading helmet to ease your suspicions. He knows you would feel betrayed if you ever found out about his dishonesty, but he reasons that your safety and comfort are more important in the moment.

Damian

Arguments with Damian are brutal. No matter how insignificant the disagreement is, Damian refuses to back down when he believes he’s right. Paired with your own stubbornness and contentiousness, these quarrels generally result in an impasse. Eventually your anger subsides and the depression sinks in. You might assume that Damian doesn’t love you anymore and that fight was the end of your relationship. Maybe you start packing your belongings to move out right away. Damian comes up behind you and asks what you’re doing. When you tell him that you’re leaving because he doesn’t want you anymore, he’s instantly remorseful. He takes your bags out of your hands and proceeds to pull you in close as he tells you how much he loves you. He assures you that two people can disagree and still love each other.

Damian doesn’t want to argue with you and he certainly doesn’t want to see you upset so he’ll always excuse himself before the argument becomes too heated. He hopes that some time apart will allow you both to calm down and come to a compromise, but it’s never that simple. Most of the time, you’ll need a third-party mediator, like a therapist, to resolve your dispute. The act of seeking out a therapist will be a huge accomplishment for your relationship. Damian likes his privacy and doesn’t want someone else in his business and you might be afraid to share intimate information with a stranger in fear that it will be used against you. Nevertheless, you both want to make this relationship work, so you’ll continue to seek help.

Damian has a habit of being blunt. He doesn’t mean to criticize or insult you – in his mind, he is only stating the facts or his opinion for the purpose of helping you improve. Despite his goodhearted intentions, it’s easy for you to take his comments the wrong way and perceive it as a personal attack. If he sees that his remarks have upset you, he’ll acknowledge all the positive aspects of your performance. Still, you might cling to the disparaging comments and ignore the praise. Going forward, Damian will try to be more encouraging and constructive and will only express feedback if you invite him to do so.

#batfam headcanons #batfam x y/n #batfam x reader #batboys headcanons #batboys x reader #batboys x y/n #bruce wayne headcanon #dick grayson headcanon #jason todd headcanon #tim drake headcanon #batfamily headcanons #batfamily x y/n #batfamily x reader #bruce wayne #dick grayson #jason todd #time drake #Damian Wayne #robinchicklets

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wajjs · 4 years ago

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prompt part: the taliajaybru continuation of your bb dami fic? where everyone is still soft and nothing hurts (too much) and bruce catches up on how to be with the people he loves?

omegaverse, omega!jay (ft. male breastfeeding - a very short scene at the very beginning)

continuation of this fic

In my darkness I search for you

Breeze comes in through the window that had been closed.

Breeze comes in, makes the curtains flutter, and Jason doesn't look up from where Dami's head is nestled in his arms, face pressed to his chest. He doesn't look up as he strokes the thin hairs on the back of the head, as he smiles down at the expression of pure concentration Damian has while staying latched onto his nipple.

Jason doesn't look up and he doesn't need to, because he knows who is standing in front of him, tense and agitated and—he wonders what kind of thoughts are plaguing that head. What kind of picture does he paint, and how is it being interpreted?

Damian's tiny hands flex on Jason's chest and it makes him laugh.

He also thinks he can hear a single broken sob coming from the pillar of kevlar, weapons and living, breathing anguish.

When he goes back to the manor, he's carrying a small travel bag with diapers, a few onesies, towels, and Damian's favorite toys. It's clear he's not here for a prolonged stay. He also doesn't come back to the family house through the cave in the middle of the night, like a ghost from days past that descends upon everyone present like a curse. Instead, he walks up the steps to the front door and bounces his baby in his arms. And he waits.

Not for long, though. Because there it is Alfred, looking like he always does and if Jason notices new wrinkles, he doesn't say a thing. He smiles, a small, shy thing, and shifts Damian to just one arm, propping him up on his side.

"Hey there, Alfie," Jason says. If there's a pang of nostalgia clanging in between his ribs, he stays quiet about it.

Alfred's eyes are wide open. This is the most caught he's ever looked.

"Master Jason," he gasps, hand shaking around the doorknob. The lack of steadiness becomes even more obvious when the older man's eyes drift until they are focused on the baby.

Jason understands the surprise. But also, it's getting cold and Damian is still getting better from that trip to—

"I apologize," Alfred quickly recomposes himself, stands to the side as he opens the door as far as it goes, "please, master Jason, please come in."

He smiles and steps inside. Familiarity rushes through him. The house seems stuck in time, as always, and he… he's changed so much.

Bruce can't stop looking at him. The man is pale and silent and he looks at Jason and his baby like they are both going to vanish the minute he blinks. Jason doesn't reassure him that this isn't a half-crazed delusion, this isn't a vision, he's here, he's real. No, he makes no attempt at comforting him. Jason knows more than well it would fall upon stubborn ears.

Alfred is the one sitting by his side and smiling as he watches with an avid eye while Damian plays in his baby chair. Well, not his, but the one that's never left the manor, much like everything else that ever entered here. Still sturdy as ever, and Jason sits next to his child and he kisses the soft hairs.

Sometimes he can't believe this is his reality.

"How," Bruce finally asks.

Even with the fireplace lit up, the room drops to sub-zero temperatures.

"I think you're well acquainted with how babies are made, B."

That's not it, though. The three adults present know.

"How did you come back?"

At least they are talking, Jason thinks, and Bruce has yet to force him into completing one medical scan after the other. It's only a matter of time for that, though. Everyone is well aware.

At the end of the day, well into the night, he's sitting by the small table in the kitchen, Damian dozing off in his arms, waiting for the kettle to start whistling. It's late, now. Late enough for Batman to be expected to be seen prowling the city, and yet the man under the cape is here, by Jason's side. Closer, so much closer than before.

"He looks like Talia," Bruce says and the air he exhales as he speaks brushes Jason's cheek.

"I know," with a rogue smile, he turns towards the other, shifts his hold so his intentions are clear. "Do you want to hold him?"

In typical Bruce fashion, the answer he gets is: "Stay."

And there are so many things left to be said. So many silenced truths waiting round the corner for their best moment to strike. Speeches Jason has rehearsed, over and over, in front of a mirror—fueled by fear and pain and anger and… and grief. Things he's thought about in the middle of training around the world with Talia's guidance.

Things that moved to the very back of his priorities when he discovered that he was—

And so he resigns himself to be, for once, the bigger person.

"I'll stay for the night."

Talia's a beauty that escapes definition, elegantly sprawled on the couch, and Jason feels warmth when he sees her the moment he crosses the door. It's as much his instincts telling him that's my alpha as it is him loving her beyond all that. There's a soft noise forming deep within his chest that has Damian reacting as well, and she laughs with such a wonderful melody.

"We missed you," he says as Damian tries to reach out, both arms extended towards her.

"I'm happy to see you doing much better," Talia stands and picks the baby in her arms. He belongs there as much as he belongs in Jason's hold. "I apologize I couldn't help when you needed me."

"Nonsense," Jason huffs a little, his cheeks getting warm, "you help us all the time. We wouldn't—"

She shushes him with a soft kiss on his lips. It makes Jason's blush grow darker, stirs up half asleep needs and wants and…

He exhales shakily, slumping against the nearest wall and letting the bag fall to the floor. Talia's eyes shine with a new light, one he's seen quite a few times before. They both know what this means.

"I shouldn't," he swallows, runs his hand over his forehead to push his hair out of his face, "I shouldn't go through one so soon, right?"

"You've been with him," her words are not reprimanding. They never are, when she gets it so well, "you've been around him more and more, lately. There are even rumors going around in high society circles. Gossip."

"But," looking at her face, taking in her expression, he shakes again, bites his fist because he needs a distraction. It's not happening just yet, but it's coming. The one thing he did not miss at all. "That… that couldn't be it…"

Talia smiles. She steps closer to him so she can kiss him again. "You've always loved him, dearest."

Jason's knees get a little weaker. He tries not to cry.

"I love you," he says. Desperation adds weight to his voice.

"I know you do," cradling Damian in her arms, she brushes his cheek with her lips, feels his exhale close to her ear, "and I love you, too, dearest."

What Talia doesn't have to say out loud, because he gets it, is: worry not. I'll find a solution.

The ridiculous thought of he's too big for this room keeps repeating itself, like a blinking neon billboard, inside Jason's head. Over and over, till words lose meaning and—

His breath hitches high in his throat and Bruce, god, Bruce Bruce Bruce, he gives him a twitch of his lips that passes for reassurance, an almost smile that Jason used to live for. He's different now, he's grown, he's, he… Talia is right, and Jason looks for her, sees her sitting by the edge of the bed, right next to him. He feels exposed, vulnerable in ways he hates, but he's safe. He's the safest he can be, here, with them paying attention to him.

"Jason," Bruce's voice is soft yet commanding and their eyes meet again. "I can leave if you—"

"No," he says too quickly, reaching out, sitting up on the bed so he can hold onto the other's clothes, "no, don't."

"Beloved," Talia scolds Bruce from behind Jason's shoulders. She's the one pushing him back down onto the mattress, the one massaging away the lines of tension taking over. "Don't tease him like this. Surely you know he's been waiting for you all this time."

Forced into view, being made to be seen, Jason gulps, closes his eyes so he doesn't get to see whatever expression is forming on Bruce's face. He's. He's embarrassed but there is warmth simmering low and insistent in his gut, warmth that gets stronger the more he's made to wait. All the scents, the smell of alpha, they are all making him dizzy, making him want. And he's achingly empty. Why aren't they…?

"I'm sorry, Jason," Bruce whispers and Jason gasps, there's the dip in the mattress, the line of heat of a body broad and big like his own laying on top of him.

Then, then there are the touches. The softest drag of fingertips over his cheek, the line of his jaw, the dip of his collarbones.

"I didn't mean to make you wait so long."

When he blinks and looks at them, at Talia, at Bruce, he's both lost and found. He needs. Legs falling open in the most natural of invitations, he bares his neck, presents himself, shivers and swallows back breathless gasps that betray just how much he craves. Like this, in the cradle of their embrace, like this Jason doesn't have to think of his fears, his anger, the wounds that never heal.

With Bruce on top of him, shedding their clothes, with Talia's fingers in his hair, with all this thorough attention, Jason doesn't have to think about all that he's lost or given up.

Like this, for this moment, he can pretend.

In the peak of winter, bundled up in worn out sweaters, cheeks red and an easy smile on his face, Jason sits on a cushion on the floor, watching as Damian plays next to him. He's giggling, babbling, round and soft and so happy, it's like there are actual stars in his eyes. The two of them paint the most incredible and magical of pictures. An allegory of second chances and new beginnings, of love, of dedication. Of loyalty.

Talia stands by the door, she's always looking, always from a certain distance, like someone who's always protecting. And there is much to protect, here. Much to keep safe.

Bruce stops by her side and his eyes follow the line of her sight. The smile that he gives, it's the most natural smile he's shown in years.

"You saved him," Bruce speaks barely above a whisper.

"Beloved," Talia sighs, leans into his side like all three of them are indeed normal people, like this arrangement won't bring problems, like they get to have a chance at a normal life, "I didn't do anything. He actually saved all three of us."

#jaytalia #brujay #taliajaybru #talia al ghul #jason todd #bruce wayne #omega jason todd #blob writes #blob's prompt party #the very last one!#setsailslash

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bigskydreaming · 4 years ago

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Couldn't the thing with Jason thinking Dick is infallible from Truth and Justice story come from how he is compared to his brother from Bruce. Even when he was Robin with Dick and Bruce fighting, he was told that Dick was better by Bruce. Then he comes back and is a cautionary tale of what not to and how not to be while Dick and Bruce are now getting along.

I mean yeah, you could go with that take, but I’m always gonna argue that even that is more fanon based than anything else, at least before this issue. We’ve seen a lot of that take in the past already, but truth is, there really isn’t that much basis in older stories for Bruce comparing Jason to Dick. And like I’ve expanded on in the past, younger Jason looked UP to Dick, he certainly didn’t resent him.

With this being true even when he first came back - Dick was the only one he didn’t target at ALL during Under the Red Hood, and when he did finally meet up with Dick a year later, during the Brothers in Blood arc, it was more to fuck with him than any attempt to take things out on him. Like, that arc gets a lot of shit and deservedly so, but I really do wish more people would at least takeaway from it the fact that in it, JASON referenced still thinking of Dick as family. Which just doesn’t mesh up with all the ‘they barely knew each other/they resented each other’ takes.

Pretty much all the times I can think of when Jason was compared to Dick pre ADITF, it was actually not at all what its usually represented as by most fandom takes, such as the time Jason teamed up with the Titans. For pretty much Jason’s entire tenure as Robin up until the Felipe Garzonas arc, Jason was actually portrayed as perfectly secure in his position of Robin and wasn’t threatened by anyone else’s perception of him at all. Even the arc where he loses it on Two-Face has been kinda amplified to make more of it than it was, like.....Bruce was worried about the anger he expressed there, but that was more out of concern FOR Jason and it wasn’t the “Jason was on the verge of getting fired as Robin all along” kinda narrative we tend to see referenced.

Jason was only made out to be the angry Robin or the less competent Robin or whatever AFTER his death, which is all kinds of shitty, but like......there’s no real basis for any kind of extended history where Jason resentfully suffered under his big brother’s shadow while Robin. The angry/less competent Robin stuff was all DC retroactively railroading him after the fact to justify their choice to kill him off (which was still their choice no matter the existence of a poll), and its the narrative most people have run with because it amplifies Jason’s existence as the misunderstood and unfairly judged underdog of the family.

Now to be 100% clear, as I’ve said in the past.....there is absolutely no reason you CAN’T go with this take if you don’t want to. Nobody has to abide by canon, or a particular canon and I’ll never argue otherwise. My main point has always just been that the thing about fanfic is that its a transformative process, it enables fans to take canon and transform it into something else.....but here’s the thing....those transformations ALWAYS happen with INTENT. People are deliberate in how and in what ways they transform canon, even if they’re not always CONSCIOUS of that deliberation.....it still exists. None of these transformations just happen, they happen for a reason. Because fans want an end result that’s different from what we saw in canon.

So my thing is always just.....yes, transform canon as you like, for whatever reason. But don’t pretend that those reasons don’t exist, and understand that when people look at a canon to fanon transformation that really only results in one major difference.......they’re gonna assume that this difference, achieving this difference, was for whatever reason, the POINT of the transformation.

And here’s where I also want to express something else: my take has never been that most of fandom just hates Dick Grayson. That they’re consciously, deliberately out to smear him or make him look bad. I think there’s a lot of elements in play with how I perceive fandom’s interactions with him compared to other characters, but more often than not, I think one of the bigger issues with how his character is TRANSFORMED from canon to fanon, is just.......he’s collateral damage. I don’t think in most cases the point is even to make actual transformations of his character or characterization......its to apply these things to people he’s in scene WITH......and he just ends up transformed as well, by proximity.

Take a look at some examples:

1) Dick firing Tim

Except as we’ve gone over multiple times, Dick didn’t actually FIRE Tim. He didn’t neglect him, he didn’t turn his back on him, he could have handled that situation differently, sure, but he had none of the ill intent people assign to him when they typically ramp up how bad this period was for Tim. Dick actually called him his equal, begged him to stay, said he was too GOOD to be Dick’s junior partner........but this is not at all how this moment in canon is generally viewed by a lot of fandom. He comes off looking a TON worse, like he just chose Damian over Tim and discarded Tim first chance he got, he didn’t care how Tim was affected, he kicked Tim out of the manor and out of Gotham.

But the thing is.....I’d argue that none of this TRANSFORMATION from canon really had anything to do with Dick. I don’t actually think that tons of fans were just waiting in the wings for the perfect opportunity to make a villain out of Dick and just seized upon this moment as the perfect opportunity. I think it was just all about Tim. It was about accentuating his misery, his aloneness, heightening the whump factor of his character and amplifying the feelings of insecurity, rejection and alienation he was feeling and that people related to.

What happened to Dick’s character in most peoples’ eyes as a result of this transformation, was the symptom, not the point. It was the collateral damage, not the aim.

2) Bruce firing Dick

In contrast, we have more than one canon interpretation of Bruce firing Dick as Robin, with this leading directly into Dick leaving the manor at a fairly young age, keeping his distance from Bruce until he finds out about Jason, Bruce giving Robin to Jason without acknowledging or apologizing for the fact that he was giving away the identity that someone else had crafted and poured their heart and soul into, not him.......but this isn’t how a lot of fandom outside of Dick stans and people who are specifically predisposed towards Bad Dad Bruce like to treat that part of canon.

Here, the transformation is the reverse from what happened with Tim and Dick. Here, the feelings of rejection and alienation and insecurity Dick realistically would have felt during that time are overlooked and even outright invalidated by TRANSFORMING the canon so that actually, this period of extended estrangement is completely disconnected from any version of events where Bruce fired Dick, which he did not do here. And in fact, Dick gave up Robin, he and Bruce had a falling out, and this was mutual and two-sided and thus Dick’s refusal to come home earlier and reconcile with Bruce was not actually him standing up for himself and refusing to settle for being taken for granted and dismissed when convenient but rather just Dick being immature, stubborn and a little spoiled.

But again.....I don’t think that’s the aim so much as a byproduct of the intended end result. Once more, I think that had very little to do with Dick himself, wasn’t about making him look bad specifically....but rather, it was about making Bruce look better. It was transforming the thing he had done in canon which was so hard to defend, ie ignore all of Dick’s feelings on the matter much in the way people accuse Dick of ignoring Tim’s later, and passively rejecting him and refusing to be the first to reach out unlike Dick who actively sought after Tim when he left. Those moments in canon definitively make Bruce look pretty bad, and are hard to reconcile with Good Parent Bruce Wayne, so that is what people are trying to transform. Once again, the way it makes Dick look in contrast is just a symptom.

The further examples are honestly pretty endless.

The aftermath of Forever Evil and Spyral is ignored, transforming Dick into the true villain of that period not because people just want an excuse to hate him, but because they don’t want to or can’t reconcile what Bruce actually did in order to get Dick to act so out of character, or they want to justify Jason and Tim and others’ anger at Dick later rather than have them appear to be inconsiderate assholes just piling on a guy who just had the worst year of his life to date.

The instances of Bruce outright abusing Dick after Jason’s death and at other times like Night of the Owls are ignored, transforming Dick into an impetuous, overly aggressive asshole who isn’t reacting to Bruce’s initial aggression, but rather just popping off the handle because he isn’t being received or treated just the way he likes.

Dick reaching out to Jason and making an offer to be there for him as Robin and later times they interact in Titans as well as any actual bond they build, even if mostly just hinted at off the page....all ignored in favor of transforming Dick into this bitter, jealous jerk who can’t see past his own feelings long enough to realize he’s taking things out on an innocent kid who doesn’t deserve this, even though that’s exactly what he realized and motivated his actual actions towards Jason in canon. And again, its not so much about making Dick worse, its about overlooking the WHYS of Dick’s hurt, turning the focus from what was done to him that justifies him being upset in the first place, to some greater mistreatment he enacts on Jason and thus drowns out any sympathy that people might otherwise have for Dick.

Dick’s periods of brainwashing like under the Church of Blood being overwritten or ignored in order to transform his deliberately out of character attitudes towards his friends and teammates there into just normal outbursts that were part of his characterization rather than signs that something was abnormally wrong with him. Thus turning everyone else’s treatment of him during that time period into again just their part of a two-way street and nothing they had to feel bad about rather than acknowledge that he’d literally not been in full control of himself while they had no such excuse for their behavior.

To be clear.....this kind of thing is NOT limited to just Dick. It tends to happen any time people want to transform a canon event into something more one-sided, to accentuate a particular character’s position as the victim or the misunderstood or neglected party.....or to turn a one-way street into a mutual antagonism, to lessen a particular character’s culpability in some argument or feud. You can absolutely find examples of this same effect applying to every other character in the Batfam as well.

But the reason it happens so often with Dick, and thus every instance of it happening tends to be amplified by the sheer volume of similar situations......is because of convenience. Because ironically, the reason Dick so often looks so bad in fanon’s eyes when it comes to his treatment of his family....is BECAUSE of how Dick is so much more integrated into every one of his family’s lives (and his friends’) than pretty much any other character. He’s the collateral damage to other characters being deliberately transformed in some way purely because he’s the one who almost always is THERE to some degree. Because there’s no one else in the scene that’s being transformed.

And so to bring it all back to your question......I think you absolutely can go with that take. There’s an argument to be made for it, especially now given that this canon issue has actually established a precedent for Jason feeling that way rather than fanon just running with the idea because it makes Jason more maligned. Its still not something that’s ever going to interest me though, even if I can see the reasoning for it, because its not just the fact that this particular dynamic between Dick and Jason has played out thousands of times before in fic, as I said yesterday. Its also because like I laid out here......my bigger issue is that take has absolutely NOTHING to do with Dick himself, says nothing about his character, but his character is inevitably the one who will suffer fallout from that particular take. That dynamic, as you described it, makes sense.....but its entirely, 100% on Bruce or others for raising those comparisons, not because of anything Dick did to Jason himself.....and thus it makes Jason’s dynamic towards Dick MORE a product of other peoples’ reactions and attitudes towards him and his brother respectively.

And that dynamic IS perfectly understandable and valid. But even if its slightly different this time because of more of a canon basis, it still for me falls into the same pattern of Dick being collateral damage to something that’s largely focused on another character entirely, with him and how he’s impacted by extension being kinda an afterthought.

*Shrugs* And that’s just......a story I’ve read so many many times before, I’m just never gonna be all that engaged by it.

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violetsmoak · 5 years ago

Text

Philtatos [7/?]

AO3 Link: https://archiveofourown.org/works/20101543/chapters/47630773

Blanket Disclaimer

Summary: During a patrol where Red Hood and Red Robin cross paths, Jason is infected with the blood of the Eros, the ancient God of Love, who informs them that they must track down his missing bow and arrows, or Jason will go slowly mad with an obsessive desire–for Tim. Though overwhelmed by the sudden attention being paid to him, Tim sets to work trying to solve the case, before Jason succumbs to madness. In the meantime, Jason discovers that there’s more than godlike powers at work here, as well as a legacy that reaches back through the sands of time.

Rating: PG-13 (rating may change later)

Beta Reader: None at the moment.

JayTimBingo Prompts This Chapter: #fate #fatal flaw #oracle #reincarnation #secrets #undying love

First Chapter

Author's Note(s): Sorry for the delay guys. Between trying to find a place to live, and dealing with a family member with Alzheimers, the past day or so has kind of sucked. But I did finally get some time to myself to finish this chapter, so I hope you enjoy!

Much of the dialog and imagery of Jason’s flashback is based on actual lines from The Iliad and Madeline Miller's novel The Song of Achilles. If you're looking to cry, read the latter to the end.

________________________________________________________________

Tim stares at the screen of his tablet, reading the information but none of it registering. He’s been at this too long.

Crime scene photos from the GCPD’s system and coroners reports from half a dozen murder-suicides that took place throughout the city in the past week, each one more brutal than the last. One guy took a meat pounder to his girlfriend’s head; another a fire poker to his husband’s face.

I wish I could get out there and investigate the scenes myself.

He’s been effectively benched and it’s starting to give him cabin fever, even though he knows it’s important to stay with Jason right now.

Bruce took off to Amsterdam about an hour again; like Tim, he prefers to retrace crimes from their origin. It’s how they find clues the cops miss. Dick’s doing the same right now in Gotham, revisiting all the crime scenes with Duke by his side in case his retrocognition can help them any. He has no idea where Steph is tonight, but if Barbara’s radio silence is any indicator, they’re probably working something big together.

Jason’s been sitting beside him on the couch in the study, three separate books open on his lap and a notepad where he’s jotting down various comparisons of the information.

(Because “I’m not defacing a first edition version of Les Métamorphoses, especially not one with etchings by Picasso, Tim. It’s just not done.”)

The first hour he managed to keep absorbed in his task, but Tim’s noticed him stopping more often between annotations, rubbing at a spot on his neck or over the spot in his shoulder where he was shot.

Whenever he notices Tim looking, they both immediately look away and go back to work; but after another period of research—getting shorter and shorter after each pause—Jason’s back to twitching and looking guilty.

He’s going to have his neck rubbed raw in another hour.

Despite the fact the whole thing was Tim’s idea, it’s harder to remain unaffected about the need for physical contact than he thought. And Jason notices pretty fast that Tim isn’t as at ease with the ‘treatment’ plan as he’s been insinuating.

He thought Jason putting his arm around his shoulders earlier was mostly to bother Dick, whose attempts at protectiveness had just made the situation more awkward. But when Jason does it again later, unthinkingly draping himself around Tim’s shoulder, Tim can’t help going stiff as a board.

Jason pulls away immediately, as if he’s been burned. “Sorry.”

“No, it’s…fine.”

“Stop lying, obviously you’re not,” Jason answers, shifting to the other edge of the couch to put at least three feet between them. “You don’t have to force yourself to do this. I can get through it without you.”

Tim sets aside his tablet. “Because that worked out so well the first time you tried it.”

“Yeah, well, it doesn’t matter. I’m more than capable of figuring out how to get through this without using your skin as a security blanket.” He pauses. “That came out so much disturbing than I intended.”

“How was it ever not going to sound disturbing?” Tim wonders, and then sighs. “Look, I don’t mind. The longer you stay in a healthy headspace, the more time we have to find a cure.”

“Yeah, but if you’re so friggen uncomfortable with it—”

“I’m not!”

“Bullshit.”

“No, really, it’s fine. It’s my choice.”

“Yeah, say that without flinching and maybe I’ll believe you,” Jason mutters, shoulders slumping. “If you’re going to freeze up every time I go near your personal bubble, screw it. Like I don’t feel like enough of a creep…”

Tim can see how much he hates this, the fact that he’s making Tim uncomfortable—the fact that making Tim uncomfortable upsets him at all. He’s never cared before; it’s always been a kind of unofficial hobby.

But now that his brain and hormones are becoming compromised, it’s more important to him than ever not to cross boundaries. Or at least what he perceives as boundaries.

Tim bows his head.

He’s been managing his feelings about all this by remaining clinical, dividing him from the particulars of the situation the way he’s always done. It’s the sort of thing that works on hard cases, the kind involving little kids or serial murders. He forgot that it doesn’t work so well when dealing with people.

Communication, he remembers Steph chiding him during one argument. Honesty.

Nodding to himself, Tim forces himself to appear relaxed.

“It’s not like that. I just—I’ve never been really good at all the…” He waves his hand, searching for the words, “…physical intimacy stuff.”

Jason blinks, not having expected that. “Oh.”

“Yeah.” Tim shifts. “I know it’s hard to tell when I’m next to Dick or Steph or someone who…”

“Who has personal space issues?”

“Yeah. But with them I’ve gotten used to it. But with you, you’ve never exactly…”

“Put hands on you except to lay you out flat on the floor?” Jason suggests, and then turns red. “I mean beating the crap out of you! Not the other thing that…! Fuck, he wasn’t kidding about the innuendo thing, was he?”

“Oh, I don’t know. If not for everything going on, I’m pretty sure you’d still be making jokes to make everyone uncomfortable,” Tim muses, his own ears warm at the accidental image Jason’s words provided.

Jason tilts his head to one side, and then nods. “Fair.”

They smirk at each other for a moment. Then something thoughtful passes across Jason’s face.

“What?”

“When you say physical intimacy,” Jason starts slowly, “d’you mean just occupying someone else’s personal space, or…?”

He trails off, and it takes a few seconds before Tim interprets the meaning. His cheeks may actually be on fire right now. “Uh…”

“You’re kidding.”

“Well, the first one’s always kind of an issue,” Tim mumbles, looking away, “so I don’t really—like I said, I’m not used to anyone wanting to get close to me, let alone actually trying it. Which always made everything kind of awkward.”

“And the second thing?”

“…that made it awkward, too.”

“So, you haven’t—? Like, not even with Blondie?”

There’s incredulity there, but no judgment, which is somewhat of a relief; he’s too used to other guys looking like he should have his man card revoked for not pouncing on a gorgeous girl like Steph.

As if anyone would ever get away with pouncing without getting a brick to the face.

But Jason seems genuinely curious, which makes Tim want to try to answer.

“No?” Tim winces at the uncertainty in the word and glances up to make sure there’s still no judgment on Jason’s face. “Not because—not because I didn’t—or she wasn’t—we fooled around, but never—she’d already done the whole unwanted pregnancy thing. We wanted to be careful and wait until we were both sure we wanted to. And then she died, then came back because she wasn’t really dead, and we broke up. But it was a long time ago, and then we never got another opportunity because—well, there was Bruce dying and not dying, and other people dying, and then losing Robin, and just…” He lets his words trail as he realizes he’s been babbling. “Sorry. Babbling.”

Jason makes a dismissive gesture. “Nah, it’s cute.”

There’s a moment where they both process his words, and then Jason’s rubbing at his neck and Tim’s coughing because he thinks he might have choked on his tongue.

“I’m going to…” Jason stands, starts rummaging through his pockets, and then jerks his head toward the balcony, “Smoke break.”

“Right,” Tim answers, carefully neutral.

Tim doesn’t complain about the smoking, even though he hates it. Jason’s under enough stress right now, if the nicotine helps calm him even a little a bit, Tim can put up with it for the short-term.

Not like he’s going to be around once we fix all this.

He lets Jason make his escape and for the first time since the conversation began, takes a full breath.

It’s just Eros’ blood. He doesn’t actually think that.

The truth doesn’t make his heart stop fluttering.

“Fuck,” he mutters, letting his face fall into his hand; he rubs at his face in frustration.

“Wallowing in your failure as usual, Drake?”

He jumps and then shoots a glare across the room at the pint-sized bane of his existence.

“Why aren’t you out terrorizing the streets of Gotham?”

“I’m here to ensure the present status quo endures and neither you nor Todd end up compromised,” Damian retorts. Then Tim blinks, the kid smirks at him. “I’m babysitting you two morons.”

“Well my life just hit another low…”

“I have also been doing research of my own to pass the time, since my talents are being ignored in favor of mundane surveillance tasks,” the boy continues. “I was intrigued at Todd’s apparent symptoms of xenoglossia and decided to peruse the security footage to see what might have precipitated it.”

“…And?”

“It wasn’t until you arrived that it started. He called you philtatos. It means ‘most beloved’.”

Tim tries not to choke. “How do you know that?”

“Anyone who has read the Iliad in the original Greek could tell you that,” Damian drawls.

“Well, excuse me, I had an education meant for this millennium.” Tim tries not to croak, running his hands through his hair in frustrations. The strands are stringy today and he tries to remember when he washed it last was; probably before Jason was brought to the manor.

“Odd that he’d call you that, though,” Damian continues. “He has that habit of assigning the most absurd monikers to anyone within a ten-foot radius. It’s not exactly the type of thing he would say. And to you of all people.”

Tim frowns, ignoring the insult. “You think it’s a symptom of the infection?”

“Perhaps. The term itself, or the tongue in question. In case you were curious, which I doubt since unless it involves a computer your interest becomes depressingly cursory, the language Todd was mumbling in while drooling on your shoulder was Archaia Makedonike.”

“English, brat.”

“Ancient Macedonian, you classless twit. The language itself was prevalent in the Hellenistic period before giving way to its superior successor, Koine, when it was brought by the military forces of Alexander the Great.”

“Conqueror of the known world at the time—why am I not surprised you’re so well-versed.”

“Tt. Of course I am. As a child, Mother brought me on a journey to follow in his footsteps along what was once his Empire.”

You’re still a child, Tim doesn’t say, because he just doesn’t have the energy for the inevitable resulting fight. “Sounds like quality family bonding time.”

“It was meant to show me all that could be achieved in a short lifetime,” Damian sniffs. “And what could be lost just as easily.”

“Because he died young?”

“Not only that, but because of his rather questionable decisions. Like pouring a considerable amount of his treasury into a funeral monument for one of his generals. He was so besotted with the man he died less than a year later. It’s disgraceful.”

“Right, because caring about someone is a bad thing.”

“It is possible to care without being ruled by one’s emotions.”

“Yeah, you’re such an excellent example of that,” Tim deadpans. At Damian’s glare, he makes a defensive gesture with his hand. “What do you want me to say? People do weird stuff for the people they care about.”

Damian narrows his eyes. “Evidently.”

He continues to watch Tim in a way he’s not entirely sure he likes. “What?”

“Nothing.”

“It sounds like you’ve got something to say.”

Jason chooses that moment to return, although he halts in the door when he notices the way Tim and Damian are glaring at one another. “Am I walking in on something here?”

“I was simply demonstrating Drake’s continued ignorance in several arenas,” Damian replies, and pushes past Jason. “I’ve wasted enough of my day pandering to your nonsense. Shout if you need help.” His gaze lingers on Jason with disgust. “Or possibly a firehose.”

“Was that demon-speak for ‘make good choices’?” Tim calls after him and noticing Jason’s bemused expression offers a half shrug. “He will do great things.”

“See, I knew all that getting on his case was just your way of showing you like him,” Jason teases and settles back on the couch. Much closer to Tim this time, body angled toward him; he can smell leather and the acrid smell of cigarettes.

He forces a grin, “Tell no one.”

“Lips are sealed,” Jason replies, abruptly stretching out and tucking a stray strand of hair behind his ear.

The gesture would normally make Tim want to melt, to bend closer to Jason as well; at first it does, but the reason for it remains starkly in his mind, and instead his skin crawls.

The study suddenly seems too small, too close, magnified by Jason’s focus on him.

Need a distraction.

“There’s a lot of CCTV footage to go through,” he says, clearing his throat and standing quickly. He ambles over to the desk to grab Bruce’s laptop, holding up to Jason. “Feel like going through half?”

“Not particularly, but only because that’s the most boring job ever.”

“And reading scholarly articles dissecting the exact syntax of some ancient play isn’t?”

“Don’t act like if it was Klingon or something you wouldn’t have a field day.”

But Jason accepts the computer, putting his books and notes to one side. Tim exhales a breath he didn’t know he was holding.

They sit in silence again for a while, one that’s somehow more tense than earlier. Tim’s stomach keeps leaping, waiting for the next time Jason needs to reach out to him, simultaneously craving and dreading it.

So it’s no surprise that he physically jolts when Jason suddenly announces, “I think I’ve got something.”

“What?” he asks quickly, hoping his reaction wasn’t that noticeable. He moves to peek over Jason’s shoulder, considering a timestamped video of an Upper East Side apartment. There’s a crowd gathered outside as paramedics load two covered stretchers into an ambulance.

“Right there.” Jason points at a grainy image in the upper left corner, almost obscured by the lighting. “See this woman?”

Tim studies the image of the woman in a leather jacket and skin-tight pants. “Yeah?”

“That’s Carrie Cutter.”

“Carrie…” Tim consults his mental rolodex. “Carrie Cutter as in Cupid?”

“Yep.”

“You’re sure?”

“Positive. I’m pretty familiar with anyone Roy might have had beef with down in his corner of the world. You know, just in case.”

Which is a smart thing to do, really, considering old enemies always have a tendency to return when they’re least expected.

And just…great. Because Carrie Cutter, along with being crazy to the point of earning honorary Arkham status, also happens to be a genetically enhanced special-ops soldier that knows how not to be found. If she’s got her hands on divine weapons somehow, it’s going to make apprehending her much more of a challenge.

Especially those weapons. If any of us get tagged with those, we’re done. I’ve been around when the Family gets turned against each other, and it’s never pretty.

The memory of Joker’s macabre dinner party still makes him gag reflexively.

Tim leans forward, balancing his weight on the desk with his palms, and studies the image again. “Could be a coincidence.”

“Has anything about all this felt coincidental to you?”

“Touché.” Tim shakes his head. “Damn. So, Cupid stole Cupid’s bow and arrows?”

What even is my life anymore?

“And the MO makes sense now, if you think about it,” Jason points out; he absently starts to rub the back of Tim’s hand with his thumb. Tim swallows and fights the conflicting urge to jerk his hand away or lean further into Jason’s space. “She has that whole crazed ‘if-I-can’t-be-happy-no-one-can’ thing going on. If she’s got Eros’ diviners, she could accomplish whatever she wants pretty easily.”

“Does she still have that obsession with Green Arrow?”

“Wouldn’t surprise me.”

“Maybe we should let Oliver know she’s heading his way.”

“Or not.”

“Jason!”

“No, seriously, hear me out, this isn’t me hating on Queen.”

“Sure…”

“Look at the pattern of robberies and deaths—if she’s headed out west, she’s taking the long way and at a slow stroll. There are tons of direct flights from Amsterdam to Star City. She could be there in like a day if that’s her goal, but she’s moving so slowly—based on the places she’s hit, and how long it takes her to get there, I’d say she’s driving.” He traces a line from Europe to the East Coast. “And possibly taking a boat. Not the Carnival way, either. I know people like to go incognito sometimes, but even that’s Bruce levels of paranoid.”

“And he once rode a goat truck across the border of Qurac…”

“Also, there are more direct routes from here to the West Coast.”

“So why come to Gotham at all,” Tim says, and steeples his fingers. “Either she’s taking her time for a reason, or she was never heading for Star City.”

“Then what does she want?”

“And how has she dropped so completely off the radar since she got here?”

Jason shrugs and leans back, stretching his arms and yawning; his arm brushes against Tim’s shoulder on its way down.

“When’s the last time you slept?” Tim asks quickly, wishing his voice didn’t sound like it was squeaking.

“Like sleep or power naps? Because I’ve had a lot of those.”

Tim rolls his eyes. “If you don’t get some rest we’ll have more to worry about than accidental innuendos. You should get some sleep.”

“The irony of you telling anyone that…”

“I’ve never had to fight off an Olympian bloodborne disease.”

“Yeah, well, I’m not exactly comfortable falling asleep right now. I keep seeing weird shit.”

“Like what?”

“I…can’t even remember. The whole thing just gives me a bad feeling.”

“You want to stay in my room?” This time it’s Jason who jumps and shoots Tim a panicked look. “Not like that! I just figured; it’s got all my stuff there. People sometimes take comfort in objects, and I just figured maybe being surrounded by my stuff would help. And I somehow don’t see you as the teddy bear type.”

Jason barks out a surprised laugh. “Hey, leave Paddington out of this!”

“You didn’t actually have a stuffed toy named Paddington!”

“Not just a stuffed toy, I’ll have you know, it was actually a Paddington Bear,” Jason retorts. “My mother used to read the stories to me, and she found him in a second-hand shop the Christmas before she…” Jason trails off, the levity in his face smoothing into careful blankness. “Anyway. I pretended like I was too old for stuff like that, but I was just happy she was lucid enough to even do Christmas that year.”

Tim can’t help the way his eyes soften at the story. He’s never heard Jason say anything about his life before Bruce, at least nothing personal.

Jason seems to notice the scrutiny, because he looks away. “Anyway. Not important. But we can try that whole…staying in your room thing. It would be nice to catch some Zs.”

They pack up their things and head down the hall to Tim’s room; all the while, Tim is trying to figure out what possessed him to suggest this. It’s true, comfort objects are a thing, but he could just as easily have brought a whole bunch of his stuff to Jason’s room for the same effect.

Except Jason doesn’t go near his room unless he’s unconscious and Bruce puts him there to recover.

He flicks on the light as Jason brushes past. “I haven’t been here in a while, so Alfred’s probably changed the sheets and everything. Good to go if you want to sleep.”

“And, uh…you’ll stay, right?”

“Yeah,” Tim replies softly. “At least until you fall asleep, then I have to take care of a few things. Alfred will probably nag me to eat and shower and changes clothes or something.”

And I need to make a trip home to have a conversation with my unwanted houseguest.

“Oh, the horror,” Jason says neutrally, though he starts rubbing at the back of his neck again, irritating the already red skin there.

Tim reaches over automatically and moves his hand away. A week ago, doing that would have probably gotten him punched; now Jason simply lets him, his body unconsciously leaning toward him.

“Listen, if you wake up and I’m not in here, don’t freak out. I’m probably in the kitchen being force-fed grits or something. And if I’m not, just call me and I’ll find you. We can even FaceTime while you wait.”

“Whatever,” Jason says, trying to sound nonchalant. He plops himself down on Tim’s bed, then frowns down at the bedsheet. “Holy shit this is soft.”

“It should be, it’s got a thread count of a thousand.”

“Spoiled ass rich boy,” Jason mutters, lying back on the bed. A surprised and pleased expression appears on his face. “Okay you know what? Forget obsessing over you, I want your bedroom set.”

This time it’s Tim who gives a surprised laugh.

⁂

“I will not be humiliated before my army.”

The lord marshal’s face resembles a misshapen beat, fury twisting his features; the skin beneath his nose is raw from the scented oils he’s been using to block the acrid scent of the funeral pyres. Jason has mostly become familiar with the odor by now—smoke and burning flesh and blood.

“What humiliation is there in appeasing the gods?” he counters and is surprised his voice remains so calm and measured; Tim is a reassuring presence at his back.

“Returning Chryses’ daughter is tantamount to the theft of my rightly taken trophy,” the king of men snarls. “Find me a replacement and I may consider it, but I will not be the only man among us without a prize.”

The quiet among the men is pointed, saturated with disagreement; even the obstinate man’s brother does not stand with him on the dais where kings and their liegemen have gathered. But Jason knows no one will step forward to say anything.

Only me, as usual.

“Son of Atreus, you know as well as anyone that we take our prizes from lawful combat. There’s ample opportunity to replace the girl, or even her worth in gold, three and four times over. All of us who stand here are kings and the vassals of kings, and we don’t owe you compensation when it was you who angered the gods in the first place.”

By taking the girl whose life I was trying to save just to screw me over, I would add.

A few of the men nod at his words; in the background, the moaning cries of the dying fill the air, a cacophony that has haunted the shore for ten days since the plague hit.

“Show your men that you’re as humble in nature as you are proficient in battle, and make amends.” He doubts the pig will notice the insult there. “End this plague before more die.”

Fury contracts the other man’s pupils to fine dots. “You will learn your place, boy. Just because divine blood runs through your veins and your mother raised you to believe you are special does not mean you might speak to me as an equal.” Jason bristles but is immediately cut off again. “Silence! I have no interest in whatever clever words your puppet master would have you speak.”

The blunt insult instead of flowery political doublespeak is surprising enough to still the words on his lips. He senses when Tim stiffens; they both know that last was directed at him.

“If I hear further suggestions that I give up my property without receiving something of like value in exchange, then I will sacrifice the man who suggests it, along with Chryses’ bitch daughter to appease the gods. Perhaps you might volunteer, Peliades,” the lord marshal concludes.

“I’m not afraid of speaking up when it’s needed,” Jason growls, “and we all know you can’t afford to sacrifice me.”

“Listen to the arrogance! It is the same you have displayed from the moment you arrived here. I believe it to be high time you face consequence for your heedless words.”

“Consequence,” Jason echoes, calm; Tim shifts closer, knowing that his outward composure is a sign of danger. The men around them shift as well, some of them whispering; more than one man’s fingers twitch toward their sword. “It’s you who should think of consequence.”

“Careful,” Tim cautions in his ear, breath hot across his neck as he comes to step beside him. He has to keep from rubbing at the area with his thumb.

“Is that a threat?” the king of men demands.

“An observation. How much longer do you think these men will last, without me to lead them into battle? How many times have I been the one who turned the tides of defeat to victory, while you remained in the back ranks?”

Now the whispering is louder, angrier; voices of dissent and outrage.

“I am High King!” the older lord roars. “Every man here knelt before me when we came to these shores or swore oaths to the gods to follow my command. Even your beloved Menoitiades whom you shield as if he is your wife.” Tim clenches his fists but carefully doesn’t meet Jason’s eyes; acknowledgement of one another now will only prove the argument. “You are the only one that always considered yourself above such things.”

Jason is furious. Green like the cold sea edges around his vision, and it would be so easy to leap across the three-foot gap and snap the bastard’s neck. He could do it before anyone else might react, and he’s fast enough to get away before anyone retaliates.

But Tim isn’t.

Tim who remains tense, shoulders set and whose fingers make a minute twitching motion against his side, silently beseeching Jason to keep his calm.

It doesn’t work.

“I have nothing to prove to you, or any who swore oaths to you,” Jason snarls through gritted teeth. “The horse-tamers have never threatened my home, have never stolen our stock or torched our fields. I chose to be here, to sail to this wretched city and help your half-wit brother regain a woman who likely doesn’t wish to be reclaimed.”

More murmuring; it’s a sentiment no one has wanted to voice.

“Have a care with your words, boy; not all gods who listen are favorable to you.”

“And what would you know of the gods? I’m closer to their ilk than you ever will be, without the scandal that troubles your bloodline. If anyone should have these men’s fealty, it’s not you. Perhaps you should be the one who bends knee in appeasement.”

The crowd is outright clamoring now, supporters and enemies alike shouting over one another. The older man’s eyes widen in triumph. “You think yourself better than me? Or than the men I command?”

“No, they are my equals. You’re the dog-faced son of a bitch that isn’t fit to clean the boots of the men you profess to lead into battle.”

Exclamations of disbelief.

“That’s enough!” Tim hisses, jabbing him with an elbow.

“Yes, listen to your keeper, Peliades. He seeks to save you from being named a traitor to this army, and suffering punishment for it. Though I think we are beyond the point of playing this off as country bumpkin ignorance to custom. Your war prizes are forfeit; I will take them under tutorship until you come to your senses and offer submission to me.”

Jason’s muscles pull taut in incandescent anger. “You have no right to do that!”

“I have every right, especially since you are so keen to take mine. In fact, I demand the first woman you took as spoil at Ilion—fetch me Briseis’ daughter. She will replace the woman the gods wish me to return.”

“If you touch her, you forgo your victory in this war. I will take my ships and return to my land.”

“Flee, then, if your heart urges you! I have no fear of you—of all the kings the son of Kronos nurtures, you are the one I hate the most. Go with your ships, run with your tail between your legs. But I will have the woman before you go.”

Jason’s hand goes to his sword, but Tim’s hand is on his then.

“Leave it,” he whispers, frantic. “There are greater punishments than death. Let’s regroup and find a solution to this away from prying eyes.”

Jason knows he’s right. The men around them are filled with shock and disapproval, but none of the cowards will support him if he strikes down the king of men.

And so instead of slicing the ignorant prick’s kneecaps out from under him, Jason simply spits at his feet.

“You’re a coward with the face of a dog but the heart of a deer. You’ve never had the courage to arm for battle along with the men you boast to lead because you fear death. You’re faithless, taking the property of those who speak contrary to you, preferring to rule over a kingdom of nobodies. Your words today doom you and your men to disgraceful ends.” He glares at all the men gathered there simply watching. “I won’t fight alongside this army any longer, and without me, you’ll all fall, ground beneath the feet of the man-killing prince. The day will come when you send your toadies to me to beg, and you’ll kneel before me crying for forgiveness, but I’ll give you nothing but laughter as you bleed in the dust before me. You will all die in ignominy for what the son of Atreus does today.”

And with that, he turns on his heel and stalks away.

Tim follows, as do the rest of the men sworn to him.

“I’ll kill him,” Jason fumes under his breath when they are far enough away not to be heard. “I would have if you hadn’t stopped me.”

“I know. And then you would have been struck down, which I couldn’t allow,” Tim soothes. “Be patient. I’ll think of a plan, you know I always do.”

“And in the meantime, that sack of pig shit will take Hippodamea and vent his frustrations toward me on her,” Jason growls.

“If he rapes her, he violates the life of one who is under your gods given protection. His men and the gods will turn on him if he does. After that display, he’s not going to court anymore of their disapproval. She will be safe until you bend knee to him.”

“Which won’t happen.”

“There are more important things than your pride,” Tim reminds him, a bit of reprimand in his tone. “Don’t lower yourself to his level, to the level of men, when you are as a god.”

Jason blinks, and turns to Tim. “That’s it.”

“What?”

“I’ll go to my mother.”

Tim’s face pales. “No!”

“Why not? And it better not be because you think she hates you.”

“She does hate me, but that’s besides the point. I just…have a bad feeling. The silver-footed are like the sea—unmerciful and uncaring who they harm in their storm. That path leads to death, I think.”

“Yes. His.”

Tim is silent and continues to look worried.

“I don’t need your permission to do this,” Jason tells him, a little sour that he doesn’t have his support on this matter.

Something like hurt flickers across his face, but then Tim’s expression goes carefully blank. “I would never presume to tell you what to do.”

“That’s not what everyone on this gods forsaken beach thinks!”

“Since when have you ever cared what people think?”

“You can’t stop me doing this,” Jason snaps.

Tim looks sad now. “I know.”

He turns to leave.

“Where are you going?”

“I’m going to prepare Hippodamea for what’s to come. Somehow I doubt you will be able to feign sympathy long enough to shoulder that burden,” he replies coldly, and stalks away.

Jason watches him go, his righteous anger continuing to simmer, until it occurs to him that Tim is actually quite angry with him. Some of the bite goes out of his rage, and worry creeps through his body.

“No, wait,” he starts, hurrying after him. “Don’t go—”

“—Tim!”

Jason sits upright in bed, arm outstretched as if to make a grab for a hand or arm, only to grasp air.

A maelstrom of different emotions cloud his mind, blocking his awareness of the room around him for several long seconds while he fights for his bearings. Anger and hurt and guilt and fear, all tied up with longing, playing on repeat in his head.

He has the strangest compulsion to make amends for something and he doesn’t remember what.

“Fuck,” he murmurs, pulling his hand back close to his body, elbow to chest, hand pressing against his shoulder. The skin radiates heat through the cotton of his t-shirt, warmer than his normal body temperature; probably from the wound.

He is alone, surrounded by pillows and a comforter that should smell like Tim but don’t (because Alfred washed them, so they’re new), in a room that feels somehow too big (which it shouldn’t, it’s the same size as the other rooms, as his room that he never goes into if he can help it. It’s bigger than the holding cell was).

A glance at the digital clock reads two in the morning. Prime patrol time, and more importantly, four hours since he put his head down. He’s pretty sure that’s the most sleep he’s had in a week, even if it was cut short by another of those maddening dream sequences that vanish from his memory in direct relation to how awake he becomes.

Where’s Tim?

He swings his feet over the edge of the bed, ready to go looking for him in the house, before remembering what he said before he fell asleep.

Don’t freak out.

Right. No problem. Tim’s just off somewhere having a human moment, which is just as well. He probably needs a break from Jason. Jason knows he needs a break from Tim—from everyone really. He can’t remember the last time he was in someone’s constant presence.

This is a good thing, he tells himself as he glances around the room, absently picking at the dry skin on the side of his thumb. He didn’t really look around when he first walked in. His brain was still trying to process the concept of Tim being the one to suggest his room as being the best place for Jason to relax.

And the surprise that he was actually right.

Tim is everywhere in these walls—video game posters and obscure pop culture refences—and furniture. There are candid photographs of him and his friends—Jason scowls at one of him and the Super Clone standing way too close together—and half-finished projects of wire and circuit. Clothes and books are strewn across the floor and—

“Christ, kid, you’re a goddamned slob.”

He never really took note of that quirk of Tim’s before, probably because they never really hung out. His knowledge of the kid’s lifestyle was limited to his own notions of what spoiled rich boys were like, and the general observation that his replacement ran on coffee and energy drinks.

His thumb is bleeding now from his continued picking, and he wipes it angrily on his pants, standing up. He needs a distraction. Otherwise, he’s going to go looking for Tim, or blow up his phone with calls until he picks up. He needs to prove to himself that he still has some control—test how long he can manage on his own, or at least test how long it takes between Tim leaving him alone and the anxious thoughts to set in.

He’s coming back. He wanted me to be here, or he wouldn’t have suggested it.

Jason just has to be patient.

Which…yeah, that was an issue even before this fixation crap.

“Screw this, I’m not just sitting here,” he grumbles, and starts wandering around the room, sorting clothes and tools and whatever other detritus has gathered on the floor. Cleaning is both mindless and immersive, something to do with his hands instead of scratch bloody welts into his skin.

And yet, he still drops everything when his phone vibrates.

“Tim?” he asks in the same breath that he unlocks the phone.

“Sorry.” Barbara actually sounds apologetic. “Just me.”

Disappointment hits him like a punch to the face. “No, yeah, it’s fine.”

“How are you holding up?”

Of course she knows what’s going on, too.

“Spectacular,” he says dryly, running a hand through his hair. “Can we maybe can the sympathy? I’m getting enough of that over here as it is. And you never call just to check in.”

There’s a beat, and then Barbara speaks again, still in her own voice, but more businesslike. “I may have found something.”

He likes that about her. She doesn’t get upset when called out on something, nor does she spend time on bullshit.

How the hell she dated Dick so long will forever be a mystery.

“What?” he asks, studying a strip of picture booth photos of Steph and Tim; the typical assortment of funny faces, pressed close together. Jason frowns, tugging absently at his hair.

“I’m not sure it’s anything, yet,” Barbara cautions, “but it’s almost certainly related to your situation.”

“And how’s that?”

“Because it involves Carrie Cutter.”

Jason straightens up. “What?”

“As soon as you and Tim established that Cupid was involved—both Cupids, I guess—I set up a search algorithm to track her whereabouts for the past month or so.” Of course she’s been monitoring everything from her little command center; this goddamn family and their surveillance… “It’s a bit too neat, someone with her modus operandi just bumping into the real Cupid.”

“And we don’t do coincidence.”

“Exactly.”

“So, she had to be sent there by someone or something. Specifically, to steal from Eros.”

“Yeah. Still working on who, though,” Barbara agrees. “That’s not the most interesting part, though.”

Jason’s scalp is beginning to burn from the distracted tugging, but he doesn’t stop. The pain is punishing, keeps him focussed on Barbara’s voice, and not the urge to hang up on her to call Tim. “Lay it on me.”

“I’ve got newspaper reports from the village of Delphi in Greece with a woman of her description killed a blind twelve-year-old two weeks ago. Sliced her throat with one of her arrowheads and walked away, took out anyone that tried to stop her.”

“Fuck.” Jason almost bites his tongue.

Carrie Cutter’s always been a murderer, but from what he knows of her from Roy, she never hurt a kid. His fingers itch with the need to punch something; he yanks his fingers out of his hair, several strands coming away with it, and slams his fist down on Tim’s desk. It creaks at the force.

“You okay?”

“Better than she’s going to be,” he replies tightly. “What else?”

“You heard me say Delphi, right?”

There’s a pause, like she’s letting him process, which he’s glad for; he did miss that the first time. Jason thinks the news over again, remembering bits and pieces memorized from National Geographic when he was a kid.

“Delphi,” he repeats. “Like the Oracle of Delphi Delphi?”

“Exactly.”

His back goes even more rigid. “Isn’t it common in a lot of myths that people who can see the future tend to be blind?”

“Good memory.”

“So we’re thinking the kid was a seer.”

“I’m thinking the kid was the actual Oracle of Delphi.”

Jason whistles. “But there hasn’t been one of those in hundreds of years, right?”

“Not since Theodosius I closed the temple when the Pythia gave him some bad news. Five years later, he was dead, and the Visigoths had captured Rome, and after that it wasn’t safe to be an oracle. But secret societies have been started over less.”

“Still, how would someone like Carrie Cutter know or even be interested in looking up some secret oracle? Even for Queen, she’s small-time.”

“Still working on that part.”

“And if she did talk to the oracle beforehand, what did the kid tell her that made her kill her?”

“Unfortunately, there was no tech anywhere around to pick up on that. Not even tourists taking cellphone videos.”

“Fuck.”

“But lucky for us, we have someone that can sort of see ghosts.”

Jason’s eyes widen. “Duke.”

“Exactly,” Barbara says, and sounds smug, like she’s just managed a checkmate against fate or circumstance or something. “As soon as he’s done with Dick, I’m sending him on quick trip to Greece. He’ll get a kick out of the plane, I think.”

Jason winces.

It won’t be easy for the newest member of the family to watch a kid being murdered, all for Jason. Worse is the fact he’s a hundred percent sure Duke’s seen worse.

Instead of voicing that thought, however, he says, “Keep me updated.”

“Will do.”

There’s a heavy silence.

“Do you want me to stay on the line?” Barbara asks after a moment. “Until Tim gets back.”

Jason’s first instinct is a snappish retort, a denial that he needs her pity.

But his hand has found its way back into his hair, tearing at the strands as he anxiously waits for the younger man to return and for all he knows, it could be anywhere from ten minutes to ten hours before he sees him again.

He shivers at the thought.

That…would be bad.

And so he clears his throat and tells Barbara in a gruff voice, “Yeah. Okay."

⁂⁂⁂

Next Chapter

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lizzy-bennet · 5 years ago

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I love the new icon and I’d sell my soul to read your thoughts on Batcat in each season like you did with S5. (Hopefully you’re not annoyed by everyone begging for your Gotham thoughts!)

That’s so kind, thank you. (My dream job is to be a writer so I’m hoping the fact that you actually find my thoughts coherent and enjoyable to read is a good sign.) Buckle up:

S2 - I don’t think Selina really quite has that big of a crush on Bruce in S1. Like, he’s interesting, and sure, she likes him, but she probably likes how hilariously awkward and nervous she makes him when she asks him if he’s ever kissed a girl more than she actually wants to kiss him. Maybe i’m interpreting this wrong, but I think when she does kiss him in S1, it’s sort of a combination of throwing him off his guard because it’s what she loves to do and the fact that she does like him, but she generally doesn’t know how to show affection. I mean, she kisses him and then leaves and is totally unprepared for Bruce to start following her around with heart eyes for the next four seasons. So S2, to me, is interesting because it’s when she starts to have more of an actual crush on Bruce. (Not that she’ll actually admit to having something as annoying and inconvenient and stupid as feelings. Feelings are useless.) But she’s obviously jealous of Silver, and then Bruce starts his trend of Dramatically Blurting Out His Feelings for Selina™️ and tells her that he’s never known a girl like her, that he trusts her with his life, that they’re tied together in a way he can’t explain, but wouldn’t change, ever. And then you see her shocked face. And this is Selina. She’s usually cool and rational and it’s not often that she gets thrown off her guard. But she’s completely unprepared by Bruce’s answer, even though she’s the one who asked him the question. And you can tell the exact moment it registers that Bruce is talking about her because the surprise and happiness is so plain on her face for a few moments before she hides it. She pulls herself together excellently - completely pretending that Bruce didn’t catch her surprised smile and that he isn’t looking at her in that soft way of his, which he is - and she takes control of the situation again, telling him that she’s going to steal one of his cars and asking if that’s okay (really, she’s the most honest thief ever with him.) And Bruce is cool, because he doesn’t press her to say anything back. He may be fine with laying all his cards down on the table, but Selina holds her cards next to her chest. But right before she leaves, she finds herself looking back at him. And she’s not touchy-feely, but she finds that she really, truly does like this boy in front of her. So she tells him not to change too much. And Bruce gets it. And I like that scene because what Bruce says sets up their vibe that lasts forever, that they are tied together, and no matter what happens, they’ll always have that unbreakable bond.

It’s such a small moment, but I also like when Bruce is talking to Selina about breaking into Arkham, and he tells her, “We can make this right.” Because appealing to Selina’s better nature is just not a thing that people do. Jim may occasionally trust her when it suits him and Alfred’s still frankly on the fence about her, but Bruce? Bruce has faith in her. He realizes that she cares and wants to make things right. Maybe just for her friend and not at all for this whole truth and justice agenda that he has, but he recognizes it in her and realizes that she does want to make things right.

S3 - Ah, that rooftop scene, where Bruce comes back for another round of his favorite game of Dramatically Blurting Out His Feelings for Selina™️. And, Selina, meanwhile, is playing her favorite game of Not Being Impressed™️. He says that she has to realize that there’s something between them and she shoots back not to tell her what to do. And, to me, that’s the moment. The moment that’s like when you’re on the end of the diving board, toes curling around the edge. The take-the-plunge moment, the now-or-never moment, the take-the-leap moment. And Selina leaps, and maybe it’s partially just to get him to stop talking, but she kisses him. And it’s kind of just like, that’s it. This is where they start the forever trend of rooftop flirting. This is what they chose and their fate’s sealed.

S4 - The scene that stands out to me in this season is their rooftop scene in the premiere. Because Selina’s not giving Bruce an inch. She’s flippant and ticked off and challenges him. “If you want to talk to me, come up here,” she taunts, because she really can’t be bothered with Bruce Wayne anymore, this troublesome boy who keeps making her build her walls back up after he’s broken them down. And she doesn’t expect him to take her up on that offer, but he does. He steps up onto the ledge with her, and his eyes never leave her. She turns and sees him, and there’s this really great shot where you see her eyes as she realizes what he’s doing. And Selina finds that every single time she thinks that there’s not a thing left in the universe that Bruce can do to surprise her, he still does.

Here’s a link to me talking about Season 1 Batcat and another link to me talking about Season 5 Batcat, just in case anyone’s interested.

#batcat #gotham #my text post tag #asks

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royal-loki · 6 years ago

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Why does Thor agree with Loki that he should stay on Sakaar - a Thorki perspective

I know this scene is confusing to a lot of Thorki shippers because basically Thor seems indifferent when Loki says that he’s better off staying on Sakaar. Instead of begging for Loki to come with him back to Asgard, Thor agrees that he should stay on Sakaar because it’s “perfect” for Loki. Here’s the whole dialogue exchange in the elevator -

Loki: Here's the thing. I'm probably better off staying here on Sakaar. Thor: That's exactly what I was thinking. Loki: ...Did you just agree with me? Thor: This place is perfect for you. It's savage, chaotic, lawless. Brother, you're going to do great here. Loki: Do you truly think so little of me? Thor: Loki, I thought the world of you. I thought we were going to fight side-by-side forever, but at the end of the day you're you and I'm me and... oh, maybe there's still good in you but... let's be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago. Loki: [emotional] Yeah... it's probably for the best that we'll never see each other again. Thor: That's what you always wanted. [pats Loki on the back]

The thing I found most fascinating about this scene was that leading up to it, Thor and Loki were fighting perfectly in sync with each other.

We were shown a whole action sequence demonstrating how second nature it was for the brothers to fight side by side. They knew what their next moves were without even glancing at each other. You can think of this scene as a dance. Thor and Loki were having a waltz to express their feelings rather than simply talking. Right before their in sync fight sequence, we get this exchange -

Obviously, the writers wanted the audience to know that Thor and Loki are terrible at communicating with words. As Loki states, “Open communication was never our family’s forte.”

Earlier in the movie when Thor is held prisoner before his fight with the Hulk, Loki casts an illusion and visits him. There he suggests to Thor that they should both stay on Sakaar and kill the Grandmaster, eventually ruling Sakaar together or leaving when they get the chance. We know that Loki has shown that he knows that they can’t defeat Hela because she is too powerful. Since they failed to stop her before she got to Asgard, she would be even more powerful if they went back to fight her. Loki is a pragmatist, he knows their chances of survival and he wanted Thor and him to stay alive. It might seem selfish for Loki to pick Thor over the rest of the Asgardians in that moment but he loves Thor more than anyone else, and would rather spend the rest of their lives together than risk losing him to save anyone else.

Now that we have established the context for the elevator scene, let’s review what happened. Loki tells Thor that he will help him get the Grandmaster’s (orgy) ship in exchange for safe passage through the “anus.” Yes, this is was actually written into the movie. Then Valkyrie and Bruce set off to start a revolution to form a distraction so Thor and Loki can go get the ship. We begin the scene by Thor asking Loki to discuss what has happened since he found out that he was ruling Asgard in Odin’s place. Loki claims that he doesn’t want to talk about it but his body language says otherwise. We get a whole scene of the two brothers fighting in perfect harmony without even creating a battle plan. Even though Loki says contradictory statements like, “We might as well be strangers now. Two sons of the crown, set adrift.” We can clearly see that Loki’s silver tongue has gotten quite rusty. Thor can easily see through Loki’s facade of indifference. The scene shows the audience how the brothers instinctively know what the other will do. They easily defeat all the guards that are in their way. Thor and Loki are far from strangers and are both working together as Odin and Frigga would have wanted. Now we’re at the infamous elevator scene.

Before anyone says that Loki wouldn’t be safe on Sakaar - I know that Loki claims that he has run out of favor with the Grandmaster but he is the God of Mischief and can easily disguise himself to stay hidden as long as he wants to.

Loki tries one last time to get Thor to reconsider and stay with him on Sakaar. Yes, he wanted his brother to stay, not just himself. Thor doesn’t take the bait and says that Sakaar is perfect for Loki. He’s pretty much telling Loki that he knows that he would rather stay safe with him on Sakaar but Thor is a hero and he has to go back to save their people. Thor is very intelligent and has finally figured out Loki’s pattern of behavior. He says one thing but wants the opposite. In this case, he’s telling Thor that they should go their own separate ways but what he truly means is that he wants them to stay together, just not on Asgard. Thor uses reverse psychology on Loki to get him to want to come with him to save Asgard and it works.

I’ll explain another confusing sequence that has polarized the fandom - Thor using the obedience disk on Loki, leaving him stranded on Sakaar. The way I interpreted the scene was that Thor knows that Loki is a powerful God like himself. He also knows that some people find the obedience disk to be highly erotic. Thor knows that Loki got pummeled by the Hulk, hit with an energy blast from an re-engineered Asgardian weapon, tortured by Thanos, fell through an abyss, got beat up by the Avengers, survived a fight against the Jotuns, and countless other examples of Loki being able to withstand physical pain. Although Loki is squirming on the ground while the obedience disk is on, he does not pass out like Thor. Clearly, Loki has a higher pain tolerance than his brother and it could be possible that the obedience disk does feel painful but in a “it hurts so good” kind of way.

Thor knows that Loki will cast an illusion and so he places the disk on Loki during the elevator scene before his brother can do anything that will prevent Thor from getting off Sakaar and saving the Asgardians. Yes, Loki would have risked Thor getting captured just so he can stay with him on Sakaar. He probably assumed he would gain the Grandmaster’s favor again and eventually buy out Thor’s freedom.

Thor: This place is perfect for you. It's savage, chaotic, lawless. Brother, you're going to do great here. Loki: Do you truly think so little of me? Thor: Loki, I thought the world of you. I thought we were going to fight side-by-side forever, but at the end of the day you're you and I'm me and... oh, maybe there's still good in you but... let's be honest, our paths diverged a long time ago. Loki: [emotional] Yeah... it's probably for the best that we'll never see each other again. Thor: That's what you always wanted. [pats Loki on the back]

After this exchange, Thor can see that Loki is visibly upset by the thought of them parting forever so Thor changes the subject to them doing “Get Help”. This reminds Loki of the times they played together as children and lightens the mood for the next scene when Loki attempts to betray Thor. It’s telling how desperate Loki is to stay with Thor by how easily Loki agrees to do “Get Help” with him. A game where Loki pretends to be the damsel in distress and Thor holds him up. Yes, Thor throws him but this doesn’t physically hurt Loki and it’s not the first time they have done this ruse. Even though Loki says that it’s humiliating for him, a genius like himself didn’t bother to think of another way to distract the guards. This tells me that he doesn’t truly get embarrassed by it and actually enjoys doing it. Especially since he was contradicting his true feelings for two scenes before that.

Then Loki splits from his illusion and sets off the alarm. Again, I want to clarify, Loki was not betraying Thor, he was only calling the guards so Thor is forced to stay on Sakaar with him. He was worried about Thor fighting Hela and getting himself killed in the process.

Here’s the most important point - Thor knew that Korg was setting off a revolution and would come to the ship docks to escape. He was not leaving Loki to die on Sakaar. He knew his reverse psychology had worked on Loki and convinced his brother to be the hero he knows he truly is. Remember, they grew up together and have been alive for over a millennia. Thor knows that Loki has always fought side by side with him against their enemies. Finding out the truth about his parentage broke Loki and caused him to rebel against Odin but Thor knows that Loki was in deep emotional pain from the betrayal. Loki even says that Thor knows how he feels now, being lied to all his life.

Thor knew Loki would come back to Asgard with him and the other prisoners. He always knows that when he speaks frankly with his brother, that Loki does the opposite of Thor asks of him. This time, Thor wised up and spoke to Loki in a way that he knew would get through to him.

In summary, Thor agrees with Loki that he should stay on Sakaar because Loki is a “tsundere”. He hides his true feelings behind his silver tongue but his actions speak louder than words. The brothers working so seamlessly to fight off the guards in the scene prior to them being the elevator. It showed that despite the few years of drama between them, they love each other very much. Loki only wanted Thor to say safe with him on Sakaar but Thor felt a duty to go back to Asgard and save his people. Thor knows that Loki has a kind heart and would come back to save their people so he used reverse psychology to tell Loki that he ‘used’ to think the world of him and that he belongs on this savage planet. Loki ruled Asgard for years, it was prospering and all the Asgardians seemed happy with his method of ruling. In fact, there’s a theory that most of Asgard knew that Loki was pretending to be Odin but didn’t even care because they love him. This movie established three very important things. First, Thor is just as intelligent as Loki but plays dumb when it’s convenient to him. Second, Loki loves the Asgardians and the Asgardians love him. Third, they care deeply about each other but have a hard time expressing their feelings with words.

*Side note - I know there are some Thorki shippers that hate Taika because they feel like he undermined Loki in Thor: Ragnarok but I can assure that Taika is one of the biggest Thorki shippers in all of the MCU

#my analysis #thor #loki #thorki #thunderfrost #thor3 #thor ragnarok #the grandmaster #grandmaster #thor odinson #loki laufeyson #taika

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roach-the-horse · 7 years ago

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A Different Side Of Love, From A Comic Book Movie Perspective...

Love is so difficult to describe, let alone express.

It could be a display of affection, a virtue where people show kindness and compassion, or an emotional response to something or someone. There are so many great love stories told in the form of epic novels or movies.

Certainly, love cannot be part of the superhero genre, right? Wrong! If we pay attention, many comic book films have shown love as a motivation or plot device.

Obviously we're distracted by the action going on, but at the core of these movies, the best and sometimes overlooked moments have been driven by love.

Let me share with you, as a comic book fan, some of my favorite moments.

Enjoy!

Suicide Squad (2016) — 'Would You Live For Me?'

Harley Quinn and the Joker. For years, their relationship has seen ups and downs, interpretations and complications. Let's leave that overall discussion for some other time.

For now, let's focus on the Suicide Squad version of this relationship. This particular romantic moment comes during Harley Quinn's origin story, when the Joker asks her if she would live for him. This version of the Clown Prince of Crime is over-the-top, narcissistic and charms Harley to the point of being almost hypnotized.

Once Harley decides to take a dive into the acid vat, the Joker seems to be enjoying himself, but then the unexpected happens: He has second thoughts.

Is it regret? Remorse? Love? He's not quiet sure, but in that brief moment, the Joker knows he can't live without her.

Maybe that's why he laughs at the end — because of the sheer absurdity of it all. She is in love with the madness that he represents and he is fascinated with the violent and damaging chaos she embodies.

Mad love indeed.

The Wolverine (2013) — Kuzuri

It's long been said that Jean Grey is Logan's greatest love, but it was Mariko Yashida who showed him what love truly means.

Their relationship is explored during The Wolverine, but the moment when she shares with him the tale of Kuzuri — the beast that saved her father's life and who would watch over young Mariko as she slept — is the moment when Logan feels nothing like the beast he's been brought up to believe he is.

Mariko is no mutant, she has no powers and is part of a world that has alienated and fears Logan's kind. Logan shows his vulnerability and for the first time in a long time he lets his guard down. In that moment, while Mariko gently strokes his claws, unafraid, Logan is at peace.

Captain America: The First Avenger (2011) — 'You Know, I Still Don't Know How To Dance'

Captain America is the personification of courage, loyalty and duty. But even a remarkable superhuman like Steve Rogers cannot exempt himself from feeling fear. In the last moments of the movie, Cap knows what he has to do, and you can see the dread written all over his face.

That is, until he hears Peggy's voice. Both know how it's going to end, but they decide to engage in casual conversation, enjoying their last moments together. There are different ways to express love, and in this scene love becomes a shelter and plays as a bittersweet goodbye.

All of a sudden, Cap is no longer afraid.

V For Vendetta (2005) — 'But I Don't Want You To Die'

V for Vendetta is a great movie, full of action and outstanding dialogue. The last thing you imagine could fit into this dystopian political spectacle, is a love story. V and Evey didn't need a whole arc to explain their love, they just knew they were in love. It took less than a minute for them to express their feelings for each other and share the most intimate moment they could ever have:

V: I told you, only truth. For 20 years I sought only this day. Nothing else existed. Until I saw you. Then everything changed. I fell in love with you, Evey. And to think I no longer believed I could.

Evey: But I don't want you to die.

V: That's the most beautiful thing you could have ever given me.

V was never meant to be a balls-to-the-wall superhero; the character’s superpower is the rhetoric and the movie nailed that part. Love doesn't have to be a roaring display of affection. Sometimes, a whisper is more than enough.

Guardians Of The Galaxy (2014) — 'I Don't Know What Came Over Me'

This scene is more than just Peter Quill saving Gamora.

It's a moment when he realizes there's more to the galaxy than fame and riches. Guardians of the Galaxy was a hit thanks to moments like this. In true Star-Lord fashion, Quill gambles with his own life to save another.

He knows that if Yondu doesn't show up, he will die. But none of that matters, as long as Gamora is safe. In a movie full of quips, jokes and quick-fire dialogue, this moment of silence is all that is needed to express love.

The right person will always bring out the best in you.

The Crow (1994) — 'I Have Something To Give You. I Don't Want It Anymore'

People think that the motivation behind the titular character is revenge. I beg to differ. Revenge is selfish, self-absorbed and can be at a times confused with justice. Eric Draven was nothing like that.

This story shows us the power of empathy.

Love can be selfish, too, and empathy keeps the balance needed for a healthy and reciprocal relationship. Everything done by Eric throughout the movie was about and for Shelly, his fiancée.

Eric Draven: Little things used to mean so much to Shelly — I used to think they were kind of trivial. Believe me, nothing is trivial.

Even when he transfers all 30 hours of pain to Top Dollar, it was so the criminal could feel what she felt. Eric could have easily done the same thing to Top Dollar, or worse, but a lesson needed to be taught, and revenge would have been a disservice to Shelly's memory.

She was a compassionate and loving woman, and Eric at that very moment realized why she was so special.

The power of empathy is truly one of the purest forms of love.

The Avengers: Age Of Ultron (2015) — 'All My Friends Are Fighters. And Here Comes This Guy, Spends His Life Avoiding The Fight Because He Knows He'll Win'

Natasha Romanoff and Bruce Banner are two damaged individuals who find comfort in each other's arms.

It also shows that love needs to be a two-way affair and this is why this scene is so important, since Natasha makes Bruce see that she also has a say in all this.

She calms the beast inside him and he brings out the humanity she though had died all those years ago in the Red Room.

Spider-Man (2002) — That Upside Down Kiss

This moment definitely needed to be included, just for the fact that it's so iconic.

One of the most romantic moments in comic book movie history, and one of the best on-screen kisses ever committed to film!

This is pure passion on display, simply because Mary Jane doesn't know that Peter Parker is under that mask. But, hey, passion and unbridled emotion also counts towards being romantic.

Of course, Peter needed to hide behind a mask, but the point is that being impulsive is also part of love and, thanks to that, Spider-Man gave us one of the most beautiful moments in a comic book film.

Deadpool (2016) — 'I'm Memorizing The Details Of Her Face'

Look at that face!

Not gonna lie. I didn't think Deadpool would be this good.

The movie is a blast from start to finish. It showed us a different side of the superhero genre, one that proves there is still so much potential to explore.

But beneath all the jokes, childish humor and gore, we found a love story.

All the motivation behind Deadpool's actions was Vanessa. This scene shows us that Vanessa truly loves him during a very real, palpable, relatable situation. No more jokes, no more one-liners as she clasps his hand, assuring him that she is all in, no matter what.

Very underrated scene and a moment that shows us love can be cruel and unfair.

Iron Man 3 (2013) — 'I Got You'

Tony Stark is arrogant, overconfident, compulsive and narcissistic, but all of that goes out the window when the Mandarin attacks his Malibu home. There is no strategy, no clever quips coming from Tony's seductive lips. The only thing on his mind is Pepper Potts.

I love how this scene represents true character development for Tony. Yes, underneath all the bravado he is a good guy, but up until this point he is still trying to improve himself and everything around him.

The moment he sends the Iron Man armor flying over to protect Pepper (which, by the way, is one of the best scenes I've ever seen in a superhero movie) is the moment when Tony realizes that there's someone in his life worth more than himself.

He is willing, without hesitation, to sacrifice his life for her.

Tony: I do what I know. I tinker. I — threat is imminent. And I have to protect the one thing that I can't live without. That's you.

Pepper inspires Tony to be a better man — and that to me is the definition of true love.

----------------------------------

Thanks so much for sticking around with me until the end.

I hope you enjoyed the read, and remember, it doesn’t matter if you have a significant other or several, or maybe you are planning to spend the day with your closest friends, family or loved ones;

The most important person that you must love always, is yourself.

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inappropriatefangirlneeds · 7 years ago

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Gotham s4ep11 “Queen Takes Knight” Personal Review

“Killing you would have been a kindness” Warning spoilers below

* Okay this episode was so good, it had me running a couple full circles especially on the matter of the FALCONE FAMILY FEUD. I lowkey spoilered myself about who it will / might be that dies and I was getting nostalgic, I did not want Carmine to die, he´s after all a good character. As soon as Carmine had summoned SOFIA FALCONE I went from naaah don´t kill off Carmine (don´t make this another he´s dying anyway thing) to Fucking Hell Sofia Fucking end this Asshole. * Carmine scolding Sofia for sleeping with Jim because of Mario was so insufferable to watch. Can we just retire that trope of fathers having any say in their daughter’s romances?! Also if the fandom can come up with the thought of her just and merely using Jim Mr. former mob boss should be able to construct that theory as well which would have saved us from an insufferable judgmental moment. * Sofia´s line nailed what crap appeared to be happening: “Another day, another man sending me out of Gotham.” “We're both just trying to keep you alive. Tell yourselves that. But what I know is that neither of you believed in me. It could've been so different.” Then she even kissed Jim Gordon before leaving which on the one hand was a very satisfying “FuckYouYouFuckingFuck” to her father but also felt so wrong and awful because it appeared that was the only thing left to do for her to show some agency both against her father controlling her and against Jim getting the upper hand. Ugly moment. But then, I don´t know how they did it, I did not straight up believe it was Sofia responsible for the shooting but I was suspicious. Could it have been her? It´s possible, just alone the way how she delayed the departure .. on the other hand the blooddrop from the rose thorn was not necessary maybe that was just a scene for dramatics not plot relevant .. but then again if she indeed is responsible for Pyg this would make a wonderful parallel: Her getting shot there and her hand getting stabbed at the table.. Great scene. Also now that we know: Take this old man! You raised someone as ruthless and nasty as yourself! Maybe even a tad bit more.

* SOFIA & OSWALD I feel a bit confirmed about this: The moment when Oswald was talking about their parents and taunting her seemed to be pretty important to me. I really had a feeling of uhoh you fucked up when she reacted to it, I don´t know if I´m interpreting too much into this but I could imagine that Oswald wasn´t so much boasting as gauging her, and he learned something about her from her reaction, something that bothers her, something that might be used against her .. The way SOFIA FALCONE reacted that night told OSWALD COBBLEPOT that she wanted and was struggling for Carmine´s approval, the way she reacted told him that she did not have his approval, which made it a quite good call to contact Carmine behind her back. What a shame that it did not work out. Also what an irony that Oswald “people that underestimate me die” Cobblepot is right here underestimating the ferocity and resolve of Sofia. *“And if he would have shown one iota of appreciation for everything I have done for this family, for him, he would be alive.” APPRECIATION: Sofia Falcone never got it from her family while half the city bows before her just because of her name. Oswald Cobblepot got it from his parents while half the city laughs at him and calls him names. * SOFIA FALCONE & JIM GORDON “My father had his moment of truth. This is yours. How many cops died under the Pax Penguina? Not one. It was you who couldn't stomach it. It was you who came to the Falcones for help. There is a direct line from your decision to a dozen police officers who have been brutally murdered.” “You're insane. Why not just kill me?” “Because, Jim, I need you at the head of the GCPD. I need Someone you can control.” “You've been planning this since the day we first met. This isn't about Gotham. This is revenge for me killing Mario.” ”You want to arrest me, arrest me. But I will talk. And the cops that died, the friend that you betrayed, will all have been for nothing. The GCPD will crumble. Penguin, or someone worse, will take over, and you will lose Gotham forever. Or take on the sin as your own. Keep the GCPD, let them think you're a hero, but live knowing who you are, what you've done. That is my revenge.” Oh *sigh that crap logic again. I´m all for calling Jim out on his issues but this would have so much more impact if that blame did not come from someone actually being at fault. It´s not like Jim forced Sofia to do any of this. I mean if I buy a kitchen knife and someone takes it and murders someone then that’s as much a direct line but I really would not take the blame for that murder. Sofia makes her own decisions. * HARVEY BULLOCK & JIM GORDON Harvey would be much more suited than Sofia to call out Jim, although he´s again stepped into shady territory with suggesting Jim to utilize a war. He is still enabling Jim´s recklessness. Despite having lost faith in their personal connection he is still there to back up Jim thinking he´s on top of things and can just do what he deems best. “Get him to do something you can really bust him for. And then yank his ass off the street once and for all.” “You're saying start a war.” “I'm saying get him to start one. You know he's gonna come for her. I don't give a tinker's damn about Sofia. The way I see it, everything that's happened, down to Don Falcone lying in that box, comes from you deciding months ago to go after Penguin. This is all on you. So finish what you started.” Both Jim and Sofia are saying the same thing in some way. Jim should face what he did and draw the consequences, just not exactly the responsible ones. Harvey says he already got his hands dirty now he should put them to good use to and get rid of everything. Sofia illustrates how Jim´s shortcomings have led to more blood on his hands then he bargained for and threatens that this can become even more, it´s there but he better not let it become more. The last scene with Harvey hurts even more in the context of the Pyg case: “So everything turned out well. You didn't even need me.. They, uh they believe in you. Don't let 'em down.” HARVEY BULLOCK hands in badge and weapon thinking he is not needed anymore, probably still being eaten up by guilt that Pyg got him tricked to shoot at another officer. That´s a stark contrast to the episode trying to tell us that Jim Gordon is the one to blame for all the deaths cause by the Pyg. * JIM GORDON or how I stopped worrying and learned to love the LAW It´s a comedy, a travesty , it´s glorious. Harvey Bullock is the person to enable Jim to go on with some questionable things. Risk a war. Play gangster against gangster. Actively pit them against each other. Jim verbally rejects being “used” by the mob first “I can't allow her to turn the GCPD into her own private army. We've come too far. This has to be by the book.” but then goes on to act against the book again. Him preaching “The law is the law” at the GCDP is quite the moment. On a side note: Sofia Falcone seemingly coming up with a more lawful solution to Jim´s issue (“So you're baiting him into committing a public atrocity.”) while actively withholding information of her own criminal involvement in the situation .. is this even irony anymore? Despite the rousing speeches in the precinct, in the Jim Gordon department crime and crime fighting are more entangled than ever. * “Nobody has to die. We only want Cobblepot.” Jim Gordon coming for Oswald like Zsasz was coming for Jim Gordon that long ago day was beautiful though * Also on the risk of sounding like a broken record, what about that wealthy Gothamite that Oswald killed in front of witnesses. * “I like to call it Operation Save Bruce Wayne.” Everything is pain and all hurts. BRUCE WAYNE is running away from everything. Parties help him to not think about things. When running is not enough because ALFRED PENNYWORTH comes after him to dump those issues on him (again) he pushes him away, instead of going travelling into misery land with him. Alfred is fired. And while Alfred is absolutely right with this not being a solution at all Bruce has a few points when he states that he is not what Alfred thought he was, what his parents wanted him to be. This was a really whole lot that was expected from him and I can´t really blame Bruce that he wants to cast away that weight. “All you're offering me is pain.” “Well, there is no life without pain. There's no love, there's no joy.” “I don't know about that. I'm having a fair amount of joy.” “You're bloody miserable is what you are, mate. I can see it.” “Alfred, I know you care about me. But I'm asking you to stop what you're doing. I'm not who you thought I was. I'm not who my parents might've wanted me to be, and I'm okay with that! But I'm not okay with it.” Oh shut up Alfred, I don´t wanna hear that either. Bruce.. pass the booze, will ya. * Edward is not in control. His mirror is talking back again. * The Grundy moment was awesome: “Ed angry at Ed?” “That is surprisingly perceptive.” * Are they going to mirror TABITHA GALAVAN and LESLIE THOMPKINS. Leslie told EDWARD NYGMA she is not looking for a remedy because he is actually fine but she did not tell him so because she is afraid he will change back and she likes the current Edward. Edward regaining memory / mental capacity is nothing she wants and she is treating him with kindness. While Tabitha wants Butch Gilzean to get his memory back, she believes violence is the answer for this. This is remarkably uncreative but well. It seems it worked. (Ugh, I don´t even want Butch back)

>>> So everything is about Parents, control, trust and identity? Bruce Wayne breaks loose from Alfred Pennyworth. Sofia Falcone kills her father Carmine. While Sofia knows her identity, which is tied to her family name and embraces it Bruce Wayne rejects the identity that he inherited from his family. Edward voices the theme of loss of control. Penguin as well as Carmine get taken away all their influence. Jim as well. Jim moreover gets a few moments to decide who he wants to be. The Sirens bargain has paid off for now, Sofia kept her word..... >>> This episode is a medieval nightmare! EDIT: Omg it even is in the title .. that´s not just about chess .. The church scene has everything the church scene with Kriemhild wearing Brunhilds belt has. Noble peoples interaction was so much about gazes and gestures and there is so much of this wordless communication in that scene. They could have even toned the dialogue down and it would have had the same effect. Victor getting up once he is in the line of sight of Sofia Falcone tells everything everyone needs to know. We don´t need Oswald screaming after him when he walks past him instead of returning back to his side. This is a slap in his face in public. This is as a severe gesture as one can make. * Moreover medieval is how Victor kneeled for royalty. “End of the day, he's a Cobblepot. You're a Falcone.” * Then all those highly symbolic details. Victor putting a bullet to rest with Carmine is such a strong visual and so was the rose scene. While Percival gets an epiphany from the blooddrop in the snow Sofia seems to be mystified. Her delaying the departure was her sticking to her plan the blood on her finger seems to be a diversion from this, maybe it should have illustrated how she´s hurting herself with hurting her family. Could it say anything that it is her mothers roses that drew the blood? * Some things felt a bit dream like as well, not as much as Jim´s first visit in the south or Leslie first leaving town but Zsasz turning on Oswald “What's to tell? You blew that kid sky high.” Was an almost nightmareish turn of events * Also just all this grave dialog: “Blood will run, Jim. Mark my words! Blood will run!” “Killing you would have been a kindness. You've no idea what you've brought to your city. I imagine when you find out the truth, it will destroy you. That's a comfort” ”The sun never shines here” * Jim take that trench coat and put it back to where you found it and keep it there. Or better burn it. Burn that thing. * Alfred .. that blue vest & those golden sleeve garters .. never take them off again honey. * Harper is awesome! * ”Yay Teamwork” Okay that was good. If only that weren´t just a gimmick slogan and they would have built a good story around the Sirens working together. * Yay for having Barbara at least somehow acknowledging that Carmine hasn’t been nice to her. * “He will with me” Carmine telling Jim that Oswald loves respects him more was such a burn. I guess Penguin´s daddy kink is a tad bit more severe than his uniform kink .. * “Well, every cop in Gotham is behind him. I'm guessing he has great leadership skills.” Zsasz showing his soft spot for Gordon again. Also his damn face while doing so! * I liked VICTOR ZSASZ better when he just mostly did what he has been told. So when´s he and Sofia gonna break up? The way he kneeled for her I can´t imagine him snatching food from a plate in front of her, but I want him to do stuff like that again. Also I´m just gonna lean out of the window super far. I know it´s quite impossible the way they shot it but can Zsasz just be still with Oswald & Martin. That would be sweet. * Is Mr. Penn okay ? What did Tabitha do? “Jim, not now” uh why does it work for him I keep saying that but issues don’t just walk away like that, Victor teach me how to do that!

#gotham #mine Gotham full episode reviews #gotham s4ep11 Queen Takes Knight

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