#this isn't all as feminist as you think it is

[yourtoradorasextendedwarranty]

Would you tell POC that vent their frustrations about white people that they're being hateful?

Yes actually. I would. Unless it was a joke. In which case I wouldn't care. But if I were to take a gander, you'd have issues about white people complaining about literally anyone else. That kind of talking is funny to me and always has been because it means that you actually have a white supremacist view of the world. You are just to jaded and stupid to realize that you do.

Which is to say that you should be justified in criticizing an entire race. Or an entire sex. You fully believe that men are the superior sex and that whites are the superior race. You'll say you don't. But you do. It's just that you believe that it IS the case and needs to be overturned. But in saying that you still admit you view non whites and women as lesser. As I fully expect. Because you're a marxist at the end of the day. Though I doubt you are even smart enough to realize that yourself. I could be wrong though. Maybe you are a marxist willingingly.

I'm guessing you're a man who's never experienced misogyny in your life

So this is kind of a dumb statement. If I am a man, and regardless of if, of course I can't experience misogyny. However if I am a man I can experience Misandry. Which is still discrimination based on sex. Which you are ignorant to it seems. To be treated like a rapist purely for existing. To be treated like a predator purely for existing. To be treated like a pedophile purely for existing. To be treated like a murderer purely for existing. To have all access to mental health and domestic violence cut off. Because of people like you no less.

Why do you always act like women aren't oppressed

Because in most of the Western world they aren't. I could post a list of the richest people on earth or just in the US and among the top of that list, from the 80's until now, there would be a huge number of them. Not just rich, but self sustaining. I've never once in my life said, "there are no areas in the world where women are oppressed". I have never said that once. However, in the western world, oppression is not something you see often. Because truth of the matter? You probably have no idea what real oppression looks like.

People often don't recognize misogyny as oppression because of how normalized it is.

Criticism isn't misogyny. And having complaints against a person voiding discussions of their sex as a relevant factor in the complaint ISN'T misogyny. Misogyny contrary to the FEMINIST definition, was originally "Hate or discrimination against a woman based on her sex". Not the bullshit expanded definition where literally anything and everything under the sun qualifies.

And lastly. I stand by my point that Radfems treating women like infants that can't make decisions for themselves is FAR more sexist than most of the actual sexism I've seen in my own life from others.

I don't think I'll continue to argue with you. Seems like there's no point. Marxist never listen and think their worldview is godlaw.

[thelesbiancitizen]

On Women-Loving-Women and Building Our Culture.

a big problem I have with a lot of lesbians is that they want soooo badly for lesbian art and culture to be ~cool~ and ~epic~ and to ~go mainstream~ and they'll be crying and wailing abt the "lack of lesbian representation" ... yeah, in the mainstream. Cus NEWSFLASH. REAL lesbian art, art that's saying something important, will NEVER BE MAINSTREAM. Because mainstream media is built on a whole system of values that entirely excludes the female viewpoint by design. and ESPECIALLY so when it comes to women whose lives center around other women.

Most lesbians, including myself once upon a time, suffer from a massive cultural inferiority complex. It's why you see so many young females identifying as gay men, because they think the culture is way cooler, more glamorous. Cus gay men have money. Lesbians do not.

Lesbian cultural works are made with very little money. And they're made for a specific audience -- other women-who-love-women -- and so they don't cater to what mainstream / malestream values think are cool. Lesbian art particularly from the 70s / 80s (and onward) is following a completely different set of values. It's about clear communication, not obfuscation. It isn't about technique, it's about clarity. It's about bringing what is supposed to be hidden out into the open. It's about using whatever you can to say whatever you've got to say. It's earnest. It's genuine. It's affectionate. It's awkward. It's clumsy. It's a loving gesture. but sooooo depressingly many young women hate it and won't give it a second glance bc you are obsessed with male approval. You crave male approval of these artistic works and you know you'll never get it, you know men will just laugh and dismiss these works bc lesbian art makes men uncomfortable. Because it's so specifically female. It's coming from a different place. A female place. Aimed at other females. Men can't understand it.

And guess what? It doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't. There is TONS AND TONS AND TONS of incredible Lesbian art and cultural products that so many lesbians my age will scoff at and say it sucks bc it isn't "cool", you think it's "cringe", but you never look at why you it is you think that way. Lesbian artists today mostly suck because they're still trying to gain approval from male-dominated institutions, where masculinist value systems still reign supreme. They're not trying to say anything that's really of value to lesbians and continuing the growth and expansion of lesbian culture. They're disconnected from the culture that made it possible for them to be out and open in the first place. They've disowned the women who came before them and did all the messy, difficult work.

Lesbian artists who have made works in the tradition of the Lesbian feminist culture that started in the 70s are so fascinating, their work is very challenging, and really makes you look at things differently. Yet, this tradition is in danger of dying out bc the younger generations are not interested. Because it isn't "cool". Because these lesbians were politically engaged and knew how powerful it was to subvert patriarchal masculinist value systems with their art. But you just look at it and see "bad art". Hmm. Ever wonder why that is?

I'm mostly speaking of visual culture here, but also music, and poetry, too. We need to understand the value of having cultural works created By Lesbians For Lesbians. Eschewing masculinist values. Creating new vocabularies. Really listening to each other. Really trying to hear what we are saying. We need to do this or else Lesbian culture will really truly be dead in a decade or two. It'll just be women copying pornified culture and thinking that's what it means to be a lesbian.

We have to make art about our experiences as women-loving-women, we have to hear each other, see each other, and talk about what we are doing. We need to be having conversations about what we want Lesbian culture to be. And building upon the legacy of the women who came before. This is how we make meaning out of our lives; meaning that is self-determined. It's stupid to sit here and take whatever crumbs we are given from artists who still are trying to appease malestream audiences. Or wailing that there are no good lesbian representations in media. We need to represent ourselves. We need to represent our lives as we see them, as we live them.

We need to value the works that we create, for ourselves, and for each other. Put our powerful Lesbian voices at the center of everything we say and do.

This is how we will find each other. This is how we will banish our loneliness and hopelessness and cast out despair. We let our lights shine and we make room for each other. We've GOT to start having CONVERSATIONS ABOUT CULTURE.

Art scenes are like gardens. Every work of art is like a plant. What do we want to cultivate? What do we want to plant to feed ourselves and for the next generations of lesbians? It's all up to us. If we want new images, we have to create them. If we want new sounds, we have to make them. If we want new language, we have to invent it.

We as women NEED to make works of art that express how we feel about ourselves and each other. How we love each other. How we hate each other. What we mean to each other. What our relationships mean, what they really look like. How it really feels to try and fail and succeed at loving one another. When we are at the center of our own worlds. We have to stop marginalizing our own experiences and voices inside our heads and JUST SPEAK.

Every piece of art you make adds your voice to a lineage of ideas. It becomes a part of a historical narrative. It means we are here. Our work is important. We have the right to speak on and engage with stories, narratives, systems of values, concepts, and ideas. And if you can, you should. If you have the opportunity, you're lucky. Do it.

Speak.

Say something. Say anything. Be honest. Be messy. Be real. Make something.

CREATE, WOMAN!

We need to seriously engage with each other's ideas. We need to respect each other's intellect and artistic processes enough to let ourselves unfold. We need to quit arguing so much and PUT IT INTO ART. AND PUT IT OUT THERE. PLEASE!

BECAUSE I NEED TO HEAR YOU!!!!! AND I NEED YOU TO HEAR ME!!!!!!

We have nothing left to lose.

Maybe I'll start a magazine.

[gimme-da-sword]

Y'know I think it is important for people with vaginas to learn to love your genitals because they really are demonized and can be a huge source of dysphoria for some, but feminism shouldn't be fully centered around having a pussy. Cis women and other AFAB people most definitely are oppressed because of genitalia (ex. men asking "are you on your period" to discredit an argument) but it isn't fair to set up the pretense that you need to be AFAB to be a feminist or have worth as a woman, and that type of thinking could be harmful towards trans and intersex people, along with men harmed by the patriarchy. No one's stories are the same and it is important that they are all shared, but having a vagina does not give you more value or make you better than those who don't. Regardless of gender identity, sexuality, race, and genitals, everyone is affected negatively by the patriarchy and everyone (except for intolerant people) belongs in the feminist movement. A diverse ecosystem thrives while a uniform one fades.

[sharklovingaquarist]

To preface I wrote this at 6 am after taking care of fish all night its not well worded

Every day, I become more gender critical. I will say that right now, it's a subject of uncertainty. Do I think that there is a possibility a human brain could feel the need to be in another body? There's a possibility, but I have yet to see a scientific explanation that doesn't play into the "male/female brain" bioessentialist bullshit that has been disproven. An explanation that proves it's not social conditioning. But do I also think that the queer community is falling right back into gender roles, lazy pre-made labels, and weird attitude and definition of being female? Absolutely. So I'm watching a video, and this woman was saying she is female, but started transitioning to male with hormones young, and then identified as a woman because she wanted to "experience being a teenage girl".... and as someone who is a female and "identifies" as a woman, that shit just totally threw me off. You all are falling right back into some conservative male pseudoscience. When I was a teen girl, I acted the same as teen boys. That's why, at one point, I identified as something other than a woman. The fact is, I feel a lot of it comes down to how the female body is perceived. We perceive being male as being truly yourself. You are confident, strong, and smart. When you have a female body, you're attractive, sexual, young, nurturing, and havent been "ruined" by a man yet. You are FOR someone, be it being observed or direct pleasures. Whether or not being trans is real, putting this connotation on sex is NOT healthy for ANYONE. Sex is not something that defines someones mentality, its purely physical. I can understand a mind feeling the need to see a different phsyical body, but acting like gender is a quirky little personality is destroying everything we've built. The worst thing is it feels like this is the gender attitude. It feels like right-wing propaganda shown as leftist ideology, and it feels like we are reverting. The reason I feel its becoming this way is the fact that its easier to group yourself with a favorable side rather than ask why its favorable. Its fun to play female for a bit and be a pretty toy, but then you can go back to being a TRUE human when you feel like a boy! We have to find the truth, and this isn't the truth.

Ig, today's society feels like two sides where I'm just "woman". And on the left I have to cut my tits off or bind to be human but since I identify with my body I'm a pretty princess who twirls in skirts. Reminds me of that one feminist who said trans women helped her bc one side told her it was innate and physical, an inescapable prison. Why do you not ask why you want to escape? Why is there no questioning the aspect of limitations in itself? The thing is simplifying women in the first place. One side does it physically, the other mentally. Women are not copypaste robots. And the issue as a whole is suspicious because why is it always woman as the focus? Because we arent complex humans, we have to be genres. But I need to do some more thinking on this too

[ausradfem]

Hot take but I wish there was a bit more discourse on here about the complex feelings one has intersecting their radical feminism with their attraction/subsequent interest in dating men. I think there's a lot of radfems on here who live lives that are completely absent of having to interact with men and be around men (and some who just don't seem to go outside much at all, lol) who will point the hard finger at anyone who dares to talk about their nigel, and claim that separatism is the ONLY way forward. Time and time again, we know this isn't true. I fully support movements like 4b! I think its valuable and imperative that women decenter men, have their own spaces, put women first, etc.

But we also ~live in a society~ and complete separatism is not only incredibly unrealistic to strive for, but it relies so heavily on moral purantism that many just find off putting as its unobtainable for them. What moral puranitsm doesn't factor in is that people fall in love! We have feelings! We're human! And if you're OSA that means you have the possibility of finding you feel a way about a man that's out of your control.

As someone pointed out in the comments, several radical feminists that we often all quote on here had husbands, boyfriends, life partners that were men. Were those men magically better than men non-feminists date? Probably not. They might possess a certain level of respect for women that a lot of men don't, because (let's be real) most men will simply not put up with a woman who has, and practices, radical feminist beliefs. I also believe there's a lot of young women on here who don't exactly practice what they preach, and on one hand may espouse many radical feminist views while never calling out their boyfriend when he uses slurs or says things that are misogynistic. But this isn't every radfem, and it's silly to lump every radfem on here into that category.

Maybe I should be more open about my OSA, and give some more nuanced views on it (especially as I come from a background of DV), but thats for another post in the near future.

Long story short I think we gotta be a bit more..... complex? When talking about radfems who continue to date and love men. It's a much more weighty, multi-facted topic than things like beauty standards, which were created as a direct tool of oppression, and serve no value to women's lives. Males often don't, but you'd be insane to say that no women get enjoyment and fulfilment out of loving men. Lastly, I think opening up discourse about staying strong in your radical feminism encourages standards!! I know I started putting up with a lot less crap from men the more I read into radical feminism. Simply saying "don't date men" doesn't teach other women how to appropriately navigate:

- standing up for one's self in a relationship

- accurately communicating your needs, and to hold men accountable when they aren't men

- being selective with who you date, what to look for and avoid

- how to recognise signs of abuse

- how to garner healthy sexuality and pleasure for yourself

- how to centre your pleasure and fulfilment sexually, emotionally and mentally.

I could go on, but it's late here and I think I've articulated my point alright enough (:

i’ve noticed that radfems with boyfriends have this unspoken belief that they just know how to pick men and therefore they feel better than women who end up with shitty men or that they could never be a woman on the news that just got murdered by her boyfriend/husband… girl just because you haven’t caught ur man watching porn doesn’t mean he’s a good guy. It’s another level of pathetic to be in a space where the actions of men and how they treat women is a very popular topic and then believe ur man is somehow different because you don’t want to be alone……i’m so sorry to the separatists that sit and watch this shit….

[spiltcandycoatedpunkblood]

really want to say a lot on this radfem inspired narrative about enforcing a gender binary based on biological differences and how anyone vaguely masculine is a threat, like for example with the problem society has with gender neutral bathrooms and also 'safe spaces' that shove anyone aside who isn't a 'woman or nonbinary person' (aka woman lite and stereotypically androgynous and white and skinny), and how we're applying this to the queering of gender and just applying a shit coat of paint to stereotypical presentation and portrayal of gender, but i'm too tired for that, so here's just this.

[transmascutena]

the poor little meow meow-ifictation of saionji in this fandom has got to stop i can't take it any more

[backpackingspace]

I am once again thinking about how odysseus who witnessed the horrors that the captured women went through (one of his main duties in the iliad was taking the women back home and making sure they were as comfortable as possible and safe because he was the only one trusted not to violate them further due to his devotion to penelope. And in the odyssey part of the reason circe sent him to the underworld was so that he'd have to listen to all these women's stories (before he could talk to the prophet) ). Who was one of the few that saw women as people and respected their space and opinions. And was then put in those exact same situations. I don't have the motivation right now to do a full literary analysis of this (I'll site the sources too) but oh man one day I'm going to write a full essay on this.

[verecunda]

That seems like a good way of looking at it, imo. I've been enjoying reading your posts because they chime a lot with what struck me as interesting about the ship. I like the idea of Haladriel, though I'm not really invested: they had a really great dynamic in s1, and there's lots of good thematic stuff to play with, especially since we know she's going to be one of his staunchest adversaries right up until the end. But a lot of the "mainstream" takes on the ship I see make me go "uhhhhh..." I guess that makes me an anti too? 😅

I think part of it might be a case of the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction? I know, back in s1, I saw a lot of wank from show antis about Haladriel - words like "anti-feminist" and "heteronormative" and "romanticising abuse" being thrown about, you know the drill - so I think maybe some fans got on the defensive, and now we're getting extreme takes in the other direction: Haladriel is totally progressive and feminist, and if you're even remotely interested in what's up with Celeborn, you're just a basement-dwelling lorebro who wants Galadriel to be a tradwife. &etc.

I don't know if this is actually the case, but I've seen the same sort of thing in the Angbang fandom. Some asshole wading in to say it was a bad ship because of "grooming" and "toxicity", which would result in some shippers rushing in and trying to prove that no, the relationship between the two most evil people in the legendarium is totally healthy and non-problematic actually.

I guess we should all just take a breath and remember that shipping isn't activism, a ship is a wholly neutral thing and there's nothing inherently good or bad about shipping (or not shipping) any one thing.

Call me crazy, call me anti-feminist, call me regressive, call me stupid for not understanding canon or text.

BUT

I don't believe it's that big of a stretch to think that maybe, just maybe, Galadriel is not truly madly deeply in love with the guy who used her friend as a dart target board 🤷‍♀️

[lgbtlunaverse]

Half the internet talking about how we just need to be more niceys to men and misogyny is the fault of mean internet feminists and the other half going "Let's try seperatism again!" I'm so tired. I want to be in community with men, especially marginalized men whose political goals align with mine, while trusting that any critique of misogyny won't immediately turn them into fascists. Is that too much to ask?

[milowing]

"in the original myth medusa was a rape victim!" i'm literally banging my head against the wall

[musical-chick-13]

The problem is. When I go, "Oh, this system is bullshit" and try to live outside it. My choices are still defined by that system. And that makes me feel really weird.

[blackswallowtailbutterfly]

Can I ask when the last time “dick worshipper”, etc. has actually been used by a radblr woman? Not a black-pill orbiter; they’re awful to everyone and don’t tend to last long here. I mean from someone in radblr, claiming to be a radical feminist or supporting radical feminism. I know it used to be fairly common years ago. So did political lesbianism, which pissed everyone off for different reasons. Most of those people either left or just don’t show up in my circles anymore, and those that do again don’t last long. So where is this coming from? I see it referenced but no recent examples. I am seeing a hell of a lot of recent homophobia from women in radblr though. Every woman I’ve seen addressing the homophobia has stated the misogynistic terms aren’t okay, again, even though from what I’ve seen it hasn’t happened for a long time. Whereas I’m seeing a ton of defensiveness and doubling down in regards to the homophobia. And there seems to be this demand of all lesbians and non-lesbian pro-separatist women to denounce the “dick worshipper” type comments, and it’s like, A) they already have and B) if they’re not the ones who said it can you stop conflating pro-separatist arguments with that shit? Again, this is just what I’ve seen. Maybe the “dick-worshipper” comments are all over some areas of radblr, but they’re not from anyone I follow or have seen on my dash for years. I’d say for the last four or five years the only time I’ve seen it is from women asking not to be called that--which, I agree, I don’t want to be called that and I don’t want to see other women called that. It’s just, I haven’t been called it or seen it for a long time, so something’s not adding up.

[countingprimes]

sometimes i see queer people make low hanging anti straight jokes, and they'll often pre-defend themselves by saying straight people don't need defending as if the queer community isn't populated by tons of straight people, straight trans people, straight ace people, straight poly people. queerness doesnt exclude exclusively opposite sex attracted people and it bothers me to see these jokes and their subsequent defenses because normative society certainly rejects these folks because of their queerness and now you are inside the queer community rejecting them for who they desire. i think about straight trans folks the most who are out here under fire from normative society who turn to the queer community for support only to be inundated with sentiments like straight people are actually the real lesser than folks, and it's easy enough to say straightness is valorized in normative society so shitting on straight people is punching up, but i can't help but be keenly aware that the queer straight people tend to be queer in the ways which are often excluded from queer community. so actually yeah i do think straight people need our protection, not heteronormative culture, but individual people? yeah. the "coming out as straight" jokes are all haha good times fuck the straights until you think about the fact that straight trans people when they come out are functionally doing that. after all how many straight trans people used to think they were cis gay people. and we, inside the queer community, turn their experiences into a mean spirited punch line designed to reject them from queer community.

like sorry i just don't think we are gonna find queer liberation by trying to figure out which group we are allowed to make fun of for having the wrong sexuality.

[sugarsnappeases]

Would you consider yourself to be a feminist

yup. love women <3

but yeah anon i like to think so!! i will say that the closest i've come to reading any feminist literature in the last couple of years has been articles about the presentation of women in various spanish/italian authors' work bc i'm bad at reading unless i'm being like. forced to. for my degree (not that i'm not super passionate about my degree. i think the articles are all so so interesting lol) but!! i try to support women's rights as much as i can (like signing petitions and having discussions about various facets of the patriarchy etc etc), and be aware of the way i interact w our patriarchal society, and think critically about why i do things and why i think things, and i am always happy to have my opinions challenged and learn new things

[navree]

People hate Alicent in the same way they hate Sansa.

Listen I don't particularly care for Sansa, I don't find being in her head all that compelling and I think she makes some baffling decisions (post AGOT, she's eleven in that book and I don't get people who get pissy about the Cersei thing when, again, she's literally eleven), and don't even get me started on post-book show!Sansa who is a fucking nightmare, but the amount of people who hate on Sansa as if she's the worst of the worst when other characters include Cersei 'babykiller sociopath' Lannister, two literal psychos in Joffrey and Ramsay, and varied different rapists are weird. Like, Tyrion's out here thinking about how badly he wants to rape and murder different women he happens to dislike, but the preteen is public enemy number one because she's kinda whiny and occasionally uncharitable and wasn't a good sister? Like, be real. Calm down.

Hating Alicent is doubly weird because generally it's criticisms of book!Alicent lobbed at show!Alicent which, like, are you twelve or lobotomized? How do you not understand the concept of different characters? And then their criticisms, which are inherently illegitimate, then extend into denying reality like "actually Alicent wasn't a child bride! She wasn't a victim of marital rape! She was actually being deliberately malicious in crowning Aegon!" as if we don't know her canonical age or didn't watch her on-screen rape scene or did not literally have multiple scenes of concrete canonical proof that she wasn't being malicious at all.

But, you know, Team Feminism are the kinds of people who make their support for women or other oppressed classes conditional on if the members of those classes are likable, not to mention illiterate once they start denying reality because they don't like what that means for the character they hate. And let's not even get started on their one-sided beef with Olivia Cooke, a real woman, and her real life female fans, because Olivia dared to play a character they don't like on a show that they don't even like. And sorry, but acting like Alicent the irl Bambi is the worst person to ever exist in Westeros when the biggest male character is an actual for real pedophile and lowkey serial killer is freak behavior and in fact a red flag. I don't trust you if you hate Alicent Hightower, I don't trust you one bit.