#this is what anti-zionism really means

[philosopherking1887]

FYI, I'm still unfollowing people who post or reblog things calling for the end of Israel's existence. You should know that when you do, you are calling for the expulsion or murder, or at best the oppression of millions of Jews. *At best*, you want Israeli Jews to suffer what Palestinians are now suffering. That is not justice; that is revenge. Your condemnations of collective punishment are revealed as pure hypocrisy when you call for more collective punishment in return.

[statementlou]

tbh as an israeli, i was so embarrassed that they put the flags there and i wish they didn’t do that. I don’t support that at all.

❤ and that's why YOU are my people, not those flag wavers- it's definitely my identity as a Jew that makes me extra outspoken about this issue in particular because like you say I feel personally embarrassed on behalf of my kin, and a responsibility by association to speak out against the israeli state's genocide. And it's made so much worse by the way people think israel= all jewish culture, or that to be anti-Israel is anti-semitism which, as @captainrayzizuniverse pointed out in tags (YES! well said and thank you!! you are also my people❤), is a tactic of zionist propaganda used to shut down criticism of the Israeli state. I think anon meant well and wants to keep an eye out for anti-semitism during this terrible time of its rise everywhere and I appreciate that! But that's why it's important to talk loudly and constantly about the fact that taking a stand against anti-semitism does not have to include defending the Israeli state- and indeed to be broadly anti-racist, one must call out Israel's colonization and genocide in Palestine

[nastasya--filippovna]

Gay sex and abortion are not evil. You know what is evil. The people who organized and attended the Met Gala while Israel launched an offensive on Rafah knowing that the world would be distracted.

[roach-works]

if you are anti-zionist the most effective work you can do is to ensure your community--politically and geographically-- is safe for jews to exist in. im serious. is your community safe for jews to be in? do you know any jews? if you do, are they scared of you? if you don't, if they are, why?

zionism is the premise that jews need to take exclusive control of our own homeland by force because there is nowhere else in the world for us to belong. that's it, that's the heart of it. if you disagree with the premise, you need to be part of the counter argument: that the jews of the diaspora are valued by their fellow citizens in countries around the world. that the jews of europe and asia and africa and the americas belong where they were born, that the jewish people deserve to belong wherever we live, that we are not invaders or parasites or unwanted guests living on the sufferance of christians and muslims who have a natural right to expell us when we've outstayed our welcome.

i'm not israeli. that land is the home of those who were born there, and i was born in california. i know a lot of my fellow americans right now that say they're anti-zionist but what they mean is they want israel gone and me along with it. and that is, ironically, why there's zionism in the first place.

are you anti-zionist or anti-jew? are we your neighbors or not? if you really want decolonization, get your own community in order. if you want all the jews to just fucking shut up already, you can join a six thousand year tradition of not actually ever managing that no matter how many genocides get done.

[xclowniex]

i will say this over and over and over again, calling Israel an "ethnostate" LITERALLY comes from the KKK and neo-nazi propaganda. every single one of you "as a Jew"s, it's fine if your anti or non Zionist but PLEASE LEARN WHAT WORDS MEAN and stop spreading antisemitic dog whistles about your own people!!!

100%

I think people really need to understand that internalized antisemitism exists.

I stand for all jews being valid and real jews, regardless of their opinion on Zionism.

However that doesn't mean that misinformation and internalized antisemitism just isn't going to be called out.

[jewishvitya]

hi riki! this is a bizarre question ngl, but im wondering if you could please tell me about why you are anti-Zionist? Since i have FRESHLY (last month!! Woohoo!!) become bat mitzvah, and I’m not going to beit Sefer every week now, I’m starting to realize that what I was told about Israel and zionism miiiight be innacurate. Please feel free not to, but I would personally feel more comfortable hearing about Antizionism from somebody who is for sure not hiding any antisemitic biases. Thanks and I hope it’s not a bother!

Mazal tov!

I was debating if I should reply to this and how. You're only one year older than my son and I never considered talking about this with a kid other than my own children. But if you're online reading and looking up information about this, I'll just answer the way I would for anyone. Like I said, I don't mind explaining. But I don't have the energy to collect sources for you. I'll do that later if you'd like. For now it'll be a bit of a rant.

Basically, if you ask different people what zionism is, you'll get different answers. Some people say that zionism is just the acknowledgement of our connection to this land. That's not what I'm going against. I'm not denying that this is our ancestral homeland. I've never known a different home, I grew up near Hebron. Our history means everything to me. So maybe you could create some definition of zionism that I wouldn't be against. But then I'll be against the use of the word because in practice, politically, the movement has been colonialist. And that reality is more important to me. So when I say I'm antizionist, I'm not talking about whatever pretty idea someone might have, I'm talking about things that to me are very concrete.

Zionism uses whatever political terminology is useful to it at the time. Currently, it tries to paint itself as a sort of landback movement, placing us as the indigenous population of this land. This is a distraction. If you mean "indigenous" as "this is where we originated" - both us and Palestinians are indigenous, which makes this term pointless to this situation. If you mean "indigenous" as "a local population facing colonization" - they're indigenous and we're the colonizers. That's the more politically useful distinction.

And the thing is, zionists knew they were colonizers. Ben Gurion was welcomed by the local population and expressed hope that they're nomadic and could be persuaded to leave. Ze'ev Jabotinsky argued that no land has been colonized with the consent of its natives, so we should just take what we want like other occupying forces did. They knew what they were doing. At the time, there wasn't the broad political pushback against colonialism that you see today, so they didn't really hide it. They saw themselves as the colonizing force and the Palestinians as the natives and this distinction had them placing themselves above the Palestinians.

When I was in school, I was made to believe that Palestine was never truly a country and the population here was never a cohesive nation. You might see questions like "Who were the Palestinian prime ministers and presidents? What was the Palestinian coin? What Palestinian wars were there before the creation of Israel?"

These questions tell you nothing other than the fact that Palestine has been under foreign occupation for a very long time. They try to lead you to believe that Palestine and the Palestinian identity are fictional constructs designed to deny us our place in this land.

But Palestinians have their own dialect of Arabic. They have their own varieties of Middle Eastern foods. They have their own clothing, their own embroidery patterns, their own dances. They have a very rich culture that wasn't just made up from nothing within the last century. I still have to battle against cognitive dissonance every time I find something of the sort, because Palestinian culture goes against everything I was taught.

The truth is, the British had no right to occupy Palestine, and they had no right to offer it to us. If we pretend there was no population that was wronged when we took Israel, we can be "the good guys" with Palestinians being a sinister plot to ruin us. This turns normal families, normal people, into a conspiracy made to hurt us. We're not fighting a military force - every Palestinian person is a threat to our legitimacy. Israelis don't even really use the term "Palestinians" - they're just Arabs, their individual identity is stripped from them. We pretend that they belong to other countries around us.

Israeli propaganda will tell you that we only ever act in self defense. It's in the name of our military, it's called a defense force. Israel boasts that it has the only ethical military in the world. The only defensive one. But like I said, we define threats very broadly. And we whitewash a lot of history. I was taught in school all our fighting was defensive - and then I spoke to an elderly man and he said "of course we killed whole villages, it was war, that's what you do." Only as an adult I found out about things like the Sabra and Shatila massacre and our involvement in it.

For the existence of Israel as an ethnostate, every Palestinian is a threat. A lot of people are all in favor of Israel, but against the government actions of ethnic cleansing. The truth is, the ethnostate is not sustainable without the ethnic cleansing. You can't accept one and expect it not to lead to the other. An ethnostate is never a justified goal, and that's always been the goal of zionism as a practical movement.

And I know why this exists. We've had two millennia of persecution. Antisemitism is one of the oldest forms of bigotry. And we just experienced an attempt to industrially exterminate us, we lost millions, including from my own family. We want shelter and safety and the ability to defend ourselves. I just can't see that as justification for what we did and continue to do.

You can look up our human rights abuses, but personally, there were moments that hit me. When I saw a whole warehouse of mail intended to reach Gaza, mail that's been kept from them for years, including items like wheelchairs, in such bad conditions that some envelopes got moldy. I still think of the people who spent all that money to get a wheelchair and were prevented mobility because we decided to hold their mail.

I watched the biggest apartment building in Gaza collapse under our bombs and I cried thinking about the people inside, and about the potential survivors and everything they lost.

I watched our people beat up the pallbearers at the funeral of Shireen Abu-Akleh, a Palestinian reporter. They almost dropped the casket from all those beatings. They were no threat. They just carried her. There was no reason to hurt them.

On the news, after Shireen Abu-Akleh died, the description of the Palestinian response to her death was that they're "חוגגים על המוות." The literal translation is that they're celebrating over the death, but that's not what it means. The meaning is that they're exaggerating their pain and their grief. They're acting, pretending, milking the injustice of it for show. And that's a common Israeli narrative, that Palestinians make a big deal out of things and pretend to suffer more just to make us look bad. We've dehumanized them to the point where we don't believe their grief.

And before all of this, growing up, I saw what the "us vs them" mentality caused in children. I grew up in Kiryat Arba and the population there is very strongly zionist. It's a settlement. It's largely Dati Leumi (national religious? I'm not sure how to translate, dati means religious and leumi means national). Over there I saw children as young as six cheerfully talk about joining the military and killing Arabs. I saw a kid throwing chocolate past the electric fence separating us from them, and laughing when a small Palestinian child went looking for that chocolate, calling her a pig. I saw my high school classmates questioning if they should help the family of a six-months-old baby, first demanding to know if the sick infant is Arab.

The Israeli left has a bit of a slogan. הכיבוש משחית. The occupation corrupts. It means that being an oppressive force changes what we are. It ruins us. And I truly believe that. It taints so much about us and our culture, about our compassion and our ability to have solidarity with other humans. Many principles that kept us safe in diaspora are used now to harm gentiles living under our control, and Palestinians suffer most of all.

So these are the reasons I'm antizionist. I hate what we do to Palestinians. I hate what it does to us. And more fundamentally, I'm against colonialism.

[jewish-vents]

I never identified as a Zionist - not an anti either, just didn’t consider it is a label. I’m not Israeli so as a form of nationalism it felt like it didn’t apply to me anyway. then a few years ago I remember all my lefty mutuals started using it like a bad word and a way to attack Israel and I was like, oh shit does that mean Zionism is actually racist? so I looked into it. of course there are many different branches and interpretations but the answer to that is no. still didn’t really feel like my term to use though, even as a Jew.

then October 7 and everything else happened, and I’ve been called a Zionist and a genocider for BEING SAD PEOPLE WERE MASSACRED. for worrying about the hostages. for loving and supporting other Jewish people.

antizionists and uneducated goyim who are literally wishing death on half the world’s Jewish population, and even 80-90% of it when you call for Zionists to be murdered - fuck all of you. you’d stick a yellow star on me and throw me into a camp just for caring about my people. you’d attack and wish death on me for saying Israel has the right to exist, does exist, and is our indigenous homeland. you call for our genocide while smearing us as genociders. you want to harass me and call me a zio??? fine. I will wear that badge proudly now. because it simply means I believe in my people’s self determination. I will always choose protecting them over standing with spineless ignorant amoral extremists like what we’ve seen too many on the left become. I choose dignity and freedom and peace. am yisrael chai.

.

[pettytiredandjewish]

antizionism is not antisemetism and you are delusional for believing so. the victim complex is strong

Well….it seems that you really don’t know the history of the term anti Zionism. Let me help you out a bit. The term anti Zionism was created by the Russians during the Soviet Union. The Russians hated jews. During that time period they wanted to find a way to destroy jews and their culture. That’s where anti Zionism comes in.

If you haven’t read Dara Horn’s people loves dead jews, she does an amazing job with going into detail about what happened- I’m gonna summarize it (I may not do it justice)…

During the 1920’s and 30’s the USSR was “supporting” Yiddish culture- they would pay for Yiddish language schools, theaters, publishing houses, etc. A lot of Russian jews were thriving in Russia during this time period due to the USSR “support”. But the Soviets wasn’t doing all of this to be kind and good. This was part of a larger plan to brainwash the jews so that they would submit to the Soviet regime. It came with a price.

The Soviets would eliminate anything in the celebrated jewish “nationality” that didn’t suit soviet needs. If you DIDNT practice your religion, study traditional Jew texts, Spoke Hebrew, or support Zionism- you were awesome. The soviets pioneered a well known slogan- which has spread all over the world and which it remains popular today: “it was not antisemitic, merely anti- Zionist”. The Soviets managed to persecute, imprison, torture, and murder thousands of Jews….

The only reason that the Soviets allowed Yiddish was so that they could continue their Jew hating game. Soviet Yiddish schools changed the language to get rid of biblical and rabbinic Hebrew. Why? Because Hebrew was and is still part of Jewish culture. The Soviets also forced Russian “anti-Zionism” Jews (who was brainwashed into hating their own Jewishness) to write stories and plays that would show how “horrible” traditional Jewish practice was. They would create these happy heroes who would reject both religion and Zionism.

This continued until the Soviets moved on to the next phase- purging Russian jews. If you were caught in a synagogue, a Jewish centered club, etc. you would be imprisoned, murdered, or exiled. This went on until the Soviets started to do the same thing to the anti Zionist jews.

Y’all this is why anti Zionism is antisemitic. Please know a terms history before you start spitting it out- thinking you know what it means. Anti Zionism is literally rooted into antisemitism. And the reason why a lot of countries and people use this term is because- (drum roll please)- they hate jews. This is why I keep telling y’all to please read up on history. Don’t get your info from social media or random websites. Just pick up a book, journals, or sourced papers and read them. It’s not that hard…

[fairuzfan]

I think that the thing that really annoys me with the "i'm anti-zionist but not in a way dictated by non-jewish people" (meaning they would like to do anti-zionism separate from Palestinians, really) is that is another form of erasure that tries to coopt the anti-zionist movement as a movement with vague terms that ensure "rights" and the "anti-occupation" of Palestinians without really deconstructing how apartheid and occupation are baked into the very fabric of israeli society and without acknowledging that... it's about Palestinians being at the forefront of their own movement against a colonialist force.

You can't exactly be anti-zionist and reject most forms of Palestinian resistance and thought, because that's predicated on the belief that you are not separated from the benefits of the colonialism of Palestinian lands as a non-Palestinian, whether you want to admit it or not. So like, what is the purpose of erasing Palestinians from their movement other than the fact that you'd rather dictate how anti-zionism conducts itself, for explicitly malicious reasons that will end up benefiting you, first and foremost?

Anti-zionism is to free Palestine, not to ensure israeli security.

[historicity-was-already-taken]

Short question: Do you have any tips for turning "If you knew anything about the Holocaust, you'd know why we need Israel" from a conversation ender into a conversation starter? Longer context: I find it important, as a Jewish anarchist and anti-Zionist, to try my best to have hard conversations about safety and perceptions thereof with irl Jewish family, friends, and acquaintances. My politics make me an outlier in these spaces, as does my status as a convert, which I choose to be quite open about. I cannot begin to estimate how many people self-righteously cut short these conversations with "If you knew ANYTHING about [the Holocaust/antisemitism/generational trauma] you'd UNDERSTAND why we REALLY NEED [medinat yisrael/any jewish ethnostate/colonial zionism]". I'm under no illusion that I'm a scholar on the history of antisemitism or Jewish living patterns or the Levant or anything. I've taken one college-level course on Nazi Germany policy and beaucratic shit, but it intentionally dealt minimally with the pointy end of the death machine. I've taken two year-long Judaism 101 style classes, which of course dealt with the history of the Jewish people. I read relevant nonfiction, both books and essays. I also understand that being a convert gives me a very different personal history with the intergenerational trauma, and I want to be super respect of that. So overall I consider myself reasonably well informed, but I obviously can't respond to them with the "I know more than you" card. (Not that that would be a good way to handle it, but still.) I want to talk to people, who use this specific argumentative tactic, about what it means that our very legitimate traumas as a people led us to the point of producing our own little ethnostate (with a number of very paternalistic inputs from European nations of course). About how the shoah shaped modern zionism. About the biblical Joshua vs the archaeological evidence of that time period and what it means for our national/societal identities. About the haftarah in which israel demands a king and whether being just like the other nations has ever been lastingly good for literally anyone. But unanimously, people look at me like I'm the fool for going "yeah actually let's talk about history and fear and trauma and cultural legacies and (re)interpretation" instead of like. Applauding their sick burn about how clearly naïve I am. Do you, a Real Actual Holocaust Scholar, have a way to turn that "obviously you know nothing" accusation into a productive conversation? If so can you please share because I am losing my mind over here.

NOTE TO READERS: I'm going to speak frankly about stuff that goes down in the American Jewish community, as a lifelong and active MEMBER of that community. This is not fodder for any of your anti-Semitic bullshit and I'm deeply uninterested in Gentile Thoughts on what I'm about to write. You do not have my consent to weaponize anything you read here against Jews you encounter here, or elsewhere, regardless of their politics.

Oof ok. I have some answers, but you may not like them. First, politics within the Jewish community. I love that you're a convert and I respect your dedication and hard work; I'm sure you know much more about the Jewish faith than I do. However, as you know, Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic group/identity. And there are a lot of religious and secular Jews who chafe at the feeling of being told how they should and should not feel about Israel by a convert who does not share our heritage and experience of intergenerational trauma. Especially if they're over 60.

I also want to tell you that when members of our community, particularly individuals over 60 years of age, have their minds made up about Israel, Zionism, etc, they're not interested in valid historical takes from experts. Their minds are made up and they reject any information counter to their stance, and attack the person providing them with the info. I've been personally attacked here and elsewhere by our people for bringing up historical and archaeological issues which run counter to their arguments. I've had my intellect and education and abilities mocked, while I'm out here voluntarily traumatizing myself through my dedication to the study of Holocaust history.

Another issue, is that Jewish history is deeply interwoven in our observance, faith, and heritage. This gives individuals involved at various levels with the Jewish community the idea that they Know Jewish History. They don't. They know a version of the Jewish past specifically constructed by and within our communal spaces; see Zakhor by Hayim Yerushalmi. And a lot of them, especially if they're a man over 50 and you're a woman who reads as young, get real nasty if you assert vaster and more accurate knowledge. It's kind of similar to how people in our communities think that they Know Holocaust History because they read Night and Grandma was a survivor. But those things don't mean that they know Holocaust history--it means they've engaged with two first-hand accounts.

I'm going to advise you to stop trying with these people. I know that's not the answer you want, and I'm really sorry about that. But, the types of people you're engaging with are so deeply traumatized and set in their own defensive views, that they would never listen to me, a Jewish granddaughter of Holocaust refugees and academically trained Holocaust historian. And if they won't listen to me, they sure as hell won't listen to someone they view as an outsider to the Jewish historical experience.

You'd be better off engaging members of your community who are still learning and figuring everything out, discussing your views as equals who are learning from one another, and putting your energies towards Jewish organizations who do not need convincing of your perspective.

ETA: this is something that will only likely change over the course of generations. the traumas of the holocaust are still fresh and living in the minds of survivors, their Baby Boomer children, and their millennial grandchildren; and I'm saying that as one of those millennial grandchildren. The trauma-induced view that Israel is our shield against the Holocaust ever happening again will not change because of anything you or I might say. It will only begin to fade into new paradigms of thought when we are many more years removed from living memory of those events.

[koheletgirl]

Would love to hear about how you became an anti Zionist!

before i get into this, i'd like to direct you to some of @jewishvitya's posts: [x] [x] [x]. i think their perspective is more relevant to the current situation than mine, and they address issues that i won't get into here because they had no personal relevance to me and you asked about me.

so my family is considered left-wing in israel. my parents voted for ha'avoda (israeli labor) in most elections i can remember, my mom even went "as far" as voting for meretz (as far as jewish parties go, they're the furthest to the left. still zionist though. didnt get enough votes to get into the knesset in the last elections). i grew up mourning rabin, hating bibi before i even knew who he was, believing that the settlements are the source of all israeli wrongdoings. in 2005 people would put ribbons on their cars – green if you support dismantling the settlements in gaza, orange if you're against it. we had a green ribbon. my family talks about the two states solution, about going back to the '67 borders. my grandmother jokingly calls herself a "leftist traitor", because that's how the right labels them.

i grew up with these values. i was taught to value human life, i was taught that all people were equal, i was taught that nationalism and imperialism were wrong. we weren't afraid of talking about the occupation. we weren't afraid of calling israeli fascism what it was. you might have heard about the democracy protests that have been happening in israel in the past year; my parents went every week.

i think this is why it took me so long to break out of my zionist worldview. people talk about zionism as if it's explicitly genocidal and built on racial supremacy, and i understand why (and agree with this to an extent), but you have to understand how absurd this idea sounds to people like my parents. they don't think zionism is the issue, they think the israeli right is. they acknowledge the evils of the settlers in the west bank, but they would never consider themselves settlers. it's very easy to see the wrongness of a person going to someone's house and violently kicking a family out of there because they believe it should belong to them (not a hypothetical, this is happening in the west bank as we speak); it's a lot harder to think that maybe everything you were taught to believe about your own right to be here was a lie from the beginning.

and that's the problem, that it is a lie. we are literally taught there was nothing here. swamps and malaria and sand and sand. the zionists built a civilization out of nothing. that's the story, that's the myth.

another aspect of this that's essential to acknowledge is the dehumanization of palestinians in israel, which is still prevalent in leftist circles, despite taking a different form. the israeli left Loves to make the distinction between palestinians and "israeli arabs" - a term that some people that i have met have used for themselves, and i am not the right person to speak on (i'm sure there's nuance here i'm unaware of). these people don't think of themselves as racists. they don't mind arabs in general, they only mind "the arabs who want to harm us". and it's so easy for them to pat themselves on the back because they have plenty of arab friends and they actively oppose the goverment's racism; but they all draw the line when it comes to palestinians. to them, once a person calls themselves a palestinian, it means they believe jews have no right to exist here. it means their existence is at odds with their own. they don't see palestinians as people, they see them as an agenda.

i was going to add a bit about how the israeli left's aversion to religion (which stems from the influence orthodox jews currently have on israeli law) plays into this, but this is getting really long.

anyway. for me, it wasn't a revelation as much as it was a willingness to open my eyes to the fact that everything i had been taught was a lie. it was always there, this doubt, this uneasiness. i knew that there were a lot of people over the world whose opinions i generally agreed with – except when it came to israel. it just took me a really long time to be able to doubt Everything.

because that required tearing down everything my worldview was based on, everything i had believed in, and it was scary. it's a very, very difficult thing to do. not knowing what to believe is horrifying. realizing you have believed in lies your whole life is horrifying.

but at some point i had to ask myself: how can i hate everything this country stands for, and not doubt what it's taught me? how can i know what i know about the idf, and still believe it's acting humanely? and the thing is, i still don't know what to believe a lot of the time. i still doubt everything, all the time. i'm critical of all of my beliefs, and i think it's good to be. but i listen, and i look, and i feel, and above all i try to be compassionate. and there's only one stance you can take here if you value human life above all else.

here are some israel-based organizations that influenced my political views and i recommend checking out (even though i have my disagreements with them): b'tselem, standing together, breaking the silence, mesarvot

[jewishbarbies]

you’re so right like, the argument of “only indigenous people deserve human rights in the Israel/palestine region” is so weird to me because… everyone deserves human rights. What’s so funny about that is that it’s mostly white Americans who say that, sitting on their couches in their houses that are built on Native American soil busy saying that only indigenous people deserve rights… hmmm. And I know that over time, many words and phrases lose their meaning but how did we go from Zionism/zionist = wanting/believing in Jewish homeland to Zionism/zionist = terrorist child killing trafficking colonising blood sucking demon??? Like I’m sure that everyone who is pro Zionism or anti Zionism (using the actual definition of Zionism) has their own reasons for why they believe what they believe, like when I first learnt of Zionism, I was under the impression that it meant wishing for a theocratic state and I’m completely opposed to theocratic states of any religion due to my belief of separating religion from government, but when I learnt more about Israel, I was like ohhhhhhhhhhh that makes more sense. And it’s like, it doesn’t really matter whether you believe Israel has the right to exist or not because… Israel already exists. It’s already a state. It’s been one for decades now and it’s not gonna stop existing just because you want it to. I don’t know why people are arguing about this. Lots of people are so thirsty for an unnecessary revolution, like people are actively wishing for the Hunger Games to be real and are attempting to draw parallels between THG and real life lol. I remember they were doing that with the met gala. Being like “this is like the Capitol, look at these rich people dressing up and playing pretend while people die” not realising that these rich people are there to preserve the art stored in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and Culture because preserving and maintaining art is actually really fucking expensive and art is history that is necessary to be preserved. You know what will actually be like the Hunger Games??? Project 2025.

[hilacopter]

You say ur a zionist depending on the definition but you believe jews are indigenous to the levant? That is the definition why don't you just call urself a zionist

see the thing is I genuinely think a lot of the whole zionism controversy mostly stems from a giant stupid misunderstanding and people not being properly informed. me telling someone I'm a zionist can either give them the right idea or the completely wrong idea.

let me paint a picture for you: a self-identified zionist and a self-identified anti-zionist walk into a bar. the zionist thinks the definition of zionism is wanting a Jewish state in the Levant, they want peace and a two-state solution. the anti-zionist thinks zionism is kahanism, they want peace and a two-state solution. "are you a zionist?" the anti-zionist asks, "yes" the zionist answers, and they immediately get into an argument. "anti-zionism is antisemitism!" the zionist shouts, "zionists are fascists!" the anti-zionist yells. of course this could all have blown over peacefully if they had asked eachother what zionism is, but why would they need to? what else could the word possibly mean?

I respect people on this site who identify as zionists, providing of course their meaning is wanting Jewish self-determination and not denying the right to Palestinian life and self-determination alongside us (remember I'm literally saying all this as an Israeli, if anyone wants Jewish self-determination in Israel it's me because my life quite literally depends on it). but I feel like they create a lot of unnecessary conflict for themselves by identifying as such and in most cases not explicitly stating what they mean by zionism. I know there's the desire to make dumb people understand the actual definition of the word, but with how much the misconceptions have already been set in stone I think it's a battle we cannot win.

there's more to all this though, buckle up for a pretty long post because I have a lot to say which I won't religate to the tags for once. first of all, I genuinely think a lot of anti-zionists, especially on the younger side (saying this as a minor myself), do not even have a solid definition of zionism in their head. they just see all of their peers shitting on it and follow along, making up whatever zionism means in their head along the way. since in leftist spaces it's not very acceptable to actually ask about the cause, why everyone is doing what they're doing. you have to take everything for granted, after all you wouldn't want to look uneducated by not knowing what zionism is! (this aspect of leftism 100% comes from cultural christianity btw)

there are also many anti-zionists who, at least to some extent, do know zionism means self-determination of Jews in the Levant and wanting Israel to exist. a lot of which think Israel is a white colonizer state, unaware of the history of the region, how more than there are ashkenazi Jews in Israel there are mizrachi Jews expelled from Arab nations, and are unaware of Jewish indigeneity to the Levant. how this land was originally Judea, only renamed Syria-Palaestina after being conquered from us and having most of us expelled. unfortunately the vast majority of pro-pal activists are very much simply jumping on the trendy train, not bothering to actually do their own research about the history of this insanely complex conflict and simply know everything by word of mouth from other equally uneducated leftists. I do think a lot of these people genuinely just don't know and aren't actively denying Jewish history on purpose, I've had like two cases happen where I told anti-zionists of this sort about Jewish indigeneity to the Levant and they just went "really? I had no idea". but of course for every person like that, there will be a person who will double down and dismiss it as propaganda, a myth and a fairytale. those people can go fuck themselves, clinging desperately to their half-assed worldview rather than willing to own up to being wrong and better themselves. denying Jewish history. or in a rare case of exceptional shittiness an anti-zionist can view zionism as wanting Jewish self-determination in the Levant and know that Jews are indigenous, yet still choose to identify as an anti-zionist by that definition for what can be a myriad of horrible reasons, usually complete tride and true antisemitism.

so in conclusion, I don't identify as a zionist outright until I know what kind of anti-zionist is asking me the question. is it an anti-zionist who just wants peace as much as I do, or is it an anti-zionist who wants me and my family dead? I've had people call me a zionist, non-zionist, anti-zionist and I don't really know what to expect each time. I feel like this approach leaves the most room for me to open good faith discussions with people and educate them on the subject as someone who actually knows xir shit, more than the average pro-pal at least, rather than having them immediately dismiss me as whatever definition of a zionist they have. not that good faith discussions are easy to have with people on tumblr dot com, and really online in general, but I'd rather have the option in the rare case of an actual open-minded individual who is willing to listen to Jews and better themself.

[anti-zionist-jew]

How would you even do an “anti-Zionist Seder” though. Like instead of the enslaved Israelites fleeing Egypt to settle Israel, are we supposed to say that there were white rich media moguls in Ancient Egypt going to buy apartments in New Jersey? Do we finish it off by saying Next Year in Hoboken? I’m really looking forward to how they spin this one

You just send this to everyone without reading anything they have already said on the subject don’t you?

That’s okay! I got you covered buddy. The idea of a NATION STATE did not exist back then. They did not flee to the nation state known today as Israel, because they didn’t exist at all. None of the history or text indicates that supporting the land means supporting what the modern state of Israel is. Zionism had not even been considered yet. So quite frankly it is you who has no idea what they are talking about.

Liberators/Freedom Seders have been being practiced for decades at this point. The anti Zionist Jewish community is only growing bigger every day.

[xclowniex]

You're a zionist Arab Jew? Are you also a member of the Snow Leopards Eating My Face party? Are you white passing enough that zionists don't know you're Arab or do you just hate yourself? Are you unaware of the unabashed anti Arab racism that Israelis spout out every day on social media? Or do you think you're just "one of the good ones"?

Time for everyone's favorite game show!

"What deranged shit in Clownie's inbox today!"

To turn to a more serious note, Whilst I do not not live in Israel, my family does.

My family have only faced minimal racism for being arab, mainly stuff back in school years ago. I do not speak for all arab jews or even all Arabs in Israel, but that is mu family's experience. Just schoolyard racist teasing which is obviously not a good thing, but isn't a problem anymore than anywhere else in the world.

My family has full rights as other arab citizens do and other jews do.

Most jews I speak to have no problem with me being arab too. Do anti arab jews exist? Probably as no group is a monolith. I have just not encountered any yet, which is again, just my experience.

Zionism is also not an anti arab ideology inherently. Zionism literally just means wanting self determination in Southern Levant. That looks like a lot of different things, however most jews who are zionist believe in either a two state solution or a land for all solution which allows for jewish self determination and Palestinian self determination.

I think it's also important for me to say that I do not know which arab country my arabness comes from due to my family being told to "leave or die" a few generations back because they were also jewish. I really wish that history had not been forgotten in the past 4 generations but it has.

When it comes to my appearance, is white passing something you ask every other poc on this site? Or just arab jews.

For your information, I am not white passing, I look mixed. People can tell that I'm not white. I have faced anti arab sentiment and racism before too because of how I look. I've even had someone think I was the cousin of an arab acquaintance too if that gives you a better idea surrounding my appearance.

I would have a better time in Israel as an arab jew than I would in most arab countries as an arab jew. Also there is a decent community of arab jews in Israel as well.

Lastly I would like to leave you with this, if your world view is threatened by an arab jew being a two state solution zionist, then your world view is weak and not at all based in reality.

I an arab jew, am holding hands with all other arab jews, non Jewish arab and non arab jews. Fuck off with your arabs vs jews rhetoric

[edenfenixblogs]

Reminder! But be aware that many Jews use the term Zionist/Zionism in a way that you do not understand it/are not familiar with! Many Jewish people who you would define as Zionists and/or people who have all the same politics as you may:

1. Call themselves Zionists because it is a term with deeply individual meanings for many Jews

2. Not call themselves Zionists, but bristle at hearing the term “Zionist” be used as a pejorative because the history of the word Zionist being used as an antisemitic dogwhistle in leftism, communist Russia, and Arab extremist organizations (and because I am Jewish and on the internet I will state explicitly that no, of course I do not think all Arabs are extremists. I do not think all Muslims are extremists. I do not tolerate Islamophobia in any way on my blog or in real life. If I see a single even somewhat questionable instance of maybe Islamophobia in any replies here, you will be blocked and reported. I am taking the time to educate about Zionism as a dogwhistle, because I have chosen to tolerate a certain amount of feedback as a Jewish person. I am neither Arab nor Muslim so it is not my place to extend an olive branch of understanding regarding Islamophobia to you nor do I have any interest in doing so. I wholeheartedly condemn anti-Arab and Islamophobic hatred. As we all should)

3. Actively call themselves anti-Zionists because they define the term Zionism in a way that includes occupation, genocide, and expulsion

4. Actively call themselves anti-Zionists but still believe that Jewish people as an ethnoreligous group are inherently indigenous to the lands around Jerusalem while ALSO considering Palestinians to be indigenous to that same land.

5. Actively call themselves anti-Zionists because they oppose the formation of any religious state whatsoever, but still believe that Jews deserve to reside where they are right now without forced expulsion.

For non-Jewish people using the term anti-Zionism, I urge you to really think about what Zionism actually means to you as a term. Like what do you think that word is? What kind of person do you think a Zionist is? What assumptions are you making in the use of that term and is it fair to expect every Jewish person to agree with that definition and why do you feel that way?

And before anyone comments on me or makes assumptions about my stance.

I do not call myself a Zionist!

I deeply oppose the current government of Israel. I had the opportunity to go on a birthright trip to Israel, and declined to go because I do not support the subjugation of Palestinians. I also chose not to go, because at the time there was a spate of bus bombings. I have family in Israel that I have never met and cannot meet because I refuse to go there out of both personal fear AND political unrest AND political/moral opposition.

I support sovereignty and equal rights and liberation and self determination for all Palestinians. I believe Palestinians are indigenous to the land.

I also believe Jewish people are indigenous to the land. Since Hadrian’s expulsion of the Jewish people from Israel/Judea in 135 and the resultant formation of Syria Palestina, there has been no place that Jews have existed that has considered them foundational parts of society or that has not expelled us. We have always been considered settlers. There is no other place in which we could even conceivably BE indigenous besides the levant. I believe that the “whiteness” of modern Jews of European descent is a product of millennia of expulsion, resettlement, and relocation. I know for a fact that PoC Jews have also REMAINED in the region since the expulsion in 135 and if they’re not indigenous to there, then who on earth is?

I believe that indigeneity does not expire. I believe that the fact that Jews sing daily prayers about their history in Israel/the levant is pretty strong evidence that Jews all over the world have never lost their connection to the region. I believe that two thousand years is a long time.

I believe that it could not matter less whether Jews or Palestinians were there “first.” What matters is the strong cultural ties BOTH cultures have to the levant. What matters is that civilians have a safe government that they can trust not to commit genocide against them. To expel them from the land of their ancestors. To banish them to settlements.

I believe colonialism is wrong. I believe imperialism is wrong. I believe there’s even more I need to learn even after living in this conflict and diaspora my entire life. I do not believe that the land that exists there right now needs to be called Israel. I only believe that there needs to be safeguards in place at a governmental level that explicitly protects the sovereignty, safety, and legitimacy of Palestinians and the Jews who live there. There must be guardrails to prevent genocide against both groups. There must be some formal institutional mechanism to ensure the safety of both parties.

I believe that none of these ideas are in conflict with one another.

Anyone telling you that the solution is straightforward is lying or has plans to harm a large number of people. You are not special. You did not invent the perfect idea that no one thought of that magically solves the issues of statelessness, fear of displacement, expulsion, or genocide. If your plan only involves helping one group without regard to the needs of the other, it is a bad plan. If you don’t believe that Jews should be expelled from Israel, is that Zionism? If you believe Jews should have self determination and representation within government that protects their interests, is that Zionism? Even if the same self determination and representation exists for Palestinians? If you are a hardcore anti-Zionist and believe that Jews do not belong in i/p at all, where do the Jews go?

Where are the Jews indigenous to that isn’t Israel? Where do they go. Europe doesn’t want us. The rest of SWANA doesn’t want us. We certainly are not indigenous to the Americas. It’s been awhile since there were expulsions from Asia (as far as I know), but they did happen there. And Asian countries have very rich indigenous histories of their own that we have no place in. The United States is increasingly violent to us and is certainly nobody’s idea of a Jewish homeland.

If your argument against Zionism is that Jews don’t belong there, where do we belong? If your argument against Zionism is that Jews don’t deserve to ever leave diaspora and should not have self determination or protection, why not us too? Again, I have no desire to go to Israel!!! I have actively rejected offers to visit Israel!!!

I don’t call this set of beliefs Zionism. I don’t believe there is a term for this set of beliefs. But someone else might disagree. And that’s the point. I’m not shaming anyone who does or does not call themselves a Zionist.