#this is supposed to be post Ragnarok and literally minutes before infinity war | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

kinnoth · 3 years ago

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Thor knows the end, but he has always known the end. Ragnarok has never been a mystery to him, to any of them. Every story ever told of Asgard ends in fire and in the darkness of nothing if one lets it go on for long enough. The Aesir have always been a doomed people: blood-loving, battle-loving, ever scratching for one more piece of glory to hold onto before the lights go out.

In truth, Thor had never expected to make it so far, and, perhaps, looking back on the trajectory of his life, he had never deserved to make it so far. The story of his life, as it has been charted, was ever one in which he would burn for a little while, then blaze for a while more, and then fall in a streak of fire, celebrated by his armies and ill-remembered by those he had conquered.

He was meant to have burned with his kingdom. His father would have burned with his kingdom. It is what is said of him in every attestation, that Odin Allfather loved his people and his kingdom until the end of both: because it was rightful, it was honourable, because it was foretold. Because Odin Allfather understood the sacrifice of kingship and the beauty of things that end.

Only greedy Thor, arrogant Thor, could have denied these people their rightful, honourable deaths. Only Thor could have snatched up these people from the glory of their own fates, and for what?

Space is cold after the fires of Asgard, cold and empty. The spiralling arms of the world tree cannot house a houseless people. All the sparkling stars that hang like fruits from its branches cannot feed them.

Thor leads his people to their doom, but he can find within himself no remorse for it. He has his brother back, standing tall and proud again beside him. Thor is not a stupid man, for all his great faults. He knows that his brother is dangerous and that he is disloyal. He has proven himself to be cruel and selfish and vain.

And yet, Loki moves beside him like his shadow as he circles through their huddled masses. Loki is good with them in a way that Thor isn't, in the way that their mother was good in the times after calamity. He touches their blackened hands and he talks to them lowly, with soothing words and gentle manner. He spins amusing tales for the children and listens, soft-eyed, to the lamentations of their mothers and fathers. They are Asgard's potters and weavers, merchantmen and clerks. They carry with them nothing but the clothes on their backs and the children in their arms. Had they been warriors, Thor might have led them and paid their way across the worlds with their swords, but as they are, they have nothing and want for everything.

He passes what assurances he can on to them. He tells them that they will be safe, that their children will not go hungry. He tells them tales of Midgard, of its glass cities and its gleaming black roads. He tells them of the rich, green hills of the Norsemen that Odin Once-King had declared would be their new home.

He feels Loki watching him. Somehow, he had forgotten how that had felt -- Loki, moving his head and his hands in subtle enquiry when emotion catches his voice; Loki, rephrasing his soldier's brusqueness into something easy and smooth; Loki remembering the details to his stories where he had forgotten. They had had a thousand years of companionship between them before these past ten in conflict and yet somehow, Thor had forgotten how it had felt to hold the weight of Loki's attention, familiar and following, as steadying as any hand.

Thor watches him as well, and, in the liminal moments in between, he drags them away from their duties and cloisters his brother away from the others. In private, Loki wears his quiet differently: his rounded shoulders find their angles and his tired eyes grow sharp and ready. Thor has him read for him the obscurities in their astronomical maps that Thor does not know enough to understand. They discuss the merits of various courses through the terrain, how to balance the preservation of their fuel next to the dangers of the shipping lanes. Loki is as studious and serious now as he is in Thor's memory. As he listens to Thor and thinks on his answers, his hand drifts absently up to his chin in a gesture he has not lost from childhood, and Thor feels again the stirring fondness he has only ever felt for his careful brother, lost in thought.

But Loki has not yet fully returned to him. It is clear in the way he stops in his sentences before they disagree and cuts away his gaze, the way he avoids Thor's hands in moments when he would not have before noticed Thor's touch. Perhaps he never will return, not wholly, and be as he was once, but Thor makes himself glad for what company he can have of him. Certain things have changed between them now in ways that he cannot hope to recover, and so Loki, though never a stranger, is perhaps more courteous than he has earned the right to be, blunter with his rebuke and shallower with his smile than Thor remembers. It is the measure of distance that Loki holds that serves to remind him always that, while Thor may again have a brother, he does not have a friend.

Perhaps that is for the best. Perhaps that is enough. Perhaps they can work together and they can lead their people, and Thor can put aside his ache for a better world and content himself with what he has. Because for all that he would like to do it, Thor does not trust his brother, even as he knows that he would not want to endure this long life without him. And perhaps he, too, is vain, but -- for this fragile truce between them, this makeshift peace -- he would have damned them all a thousand times without a second thought. Loki is here, and Thor believes again, as he did when he was young: that with his brother at his side, there is no quandary in the universe that the two of them cannot conquer.

Still, he startles when he feels a hand lay across his back. He is half-asleep, hunched over their star maps and logbooks again, looking for ways through disaster as though, if he looked long enough, he could divine new meaning into the numbers. He looks up to see Loki drawing his white hand back into the shadow of his cloak, a plaintive expression clearing quickly from his face.

"You are tired," Loki says. His voice is soft and unreadable. "You should rest."

"Yes," Thor replies. He had been dreaming, but of what, he doesn't remember now that he is awake. Impressions of fire and shadow splinter under the weight of waking until all that remains is the metal taste of urgency and guilt in his mouth. He sets his palm over his eyes and scrubs until all he sees again are stars. They are twenty-two jumps points outside of Asgard and he doesn't know how they are going to make it to twenty-three.

When next he looks up, Loki regards him with a look nearing sympathy. "Come with me," he says, and it is a testament to how truly tired Thor is that he follows without question. Loki leads him through a warren of utilitarian back rooms, storage spaces and servants quarters stripped bare of the Grandmaster's glitter and sculpted luxury. There is a narrow wire staircase twisting up past the rafters, and then Loki brings him into a room.

Something about the arrangement of it strikes Thor as immediately familiar, though he cannot place how. There is a low bed pushed against the wall and shelves built above it. From the ceiling hang bundles of scented dried things wrapped in scrap cloth, and on the far wall is a wide window, looking out into the void. Pale flame flickers to life in the brazier by the door and this is Loki's room, from back home, Thor realises, his private royal chamber scaled down to fit this space the size of a pauper's cell.

Thor touches the brutally bare wall. They are so close to the engines here that he can feel them humming beneath his hand. He steps after Loki into the room and passes his fingers over the fire as he walks. There is no warmth and so he reaches into the centre of it and picks up a glowing ember. It pulses like a living thing, faintly green around the edges. Foxfire, he recognises, Loki’s magic used for the crude banality of lighting a room. "Is this where you've been sleeping?" he asks, unable to keep the reproach from his voice.

Loki has opened a hidden compartment and is unpinning the cloak from his shoulders. He looks strange and unguarded for a moment, and Thor is sorry to have spoken without thought. Loki looks away. "You did not wonder?"

Thor shrugs with deliberate disaffectedness. "I didn't think it was any of my business," he says. He peers around the corners of the doorway. There is a bath beyond a half-closed door and, next to it, a meagre kitchen. It is odd to think of Loki, imperious and supercilious, cooking meals for himself off of one small hob. It is odd to think of his brother living sparsely, when their mother’s one enduring criticism of him was how he spent too freely. How much more of his life has Loki concealed from him? How else has he lived that Thor does not know?

Loki emerges from his closet, much the same but with all his dignity drawn about him once again. He plucks the coal from Thor’s hand and uses it to light the other lamps around the room. “This used to be my room when the Grandmaster took me out on his excursions," he explains. "I didn’t think anyone would mind it if I took it up again. Of course, I didn’t spend much time here,” he adds as he gives Thor back his ember. “The rooms downstairs, housing Asgard's people, those were for his guests. They are much more comfortable.”

Thor takes the glowing coal, holds it in his palm again for a moment before tossing it back into the brazier with the others. “And what were you then?” he asks suspiciously. A species of confusion mated to a kind of rage creeps up into his chest, but he pushes down on it with the ease of long practice, until naught but a faint abhorrence emerges into his conscious thought.

Loki smiles. ”Household.”

"Here,” he says before Thor can unravel his unease. A dark, ornate bottle appears between his fingertips and uncorks itself with a pop. He presses it into Thor’s hand. “Have a drink with me."

Thor twists his mouth. “Are we out of clean glasses again?” A fragrance at once sweet and sharply medicinal wafts up from the open neck. The liquid itself is nearly black.

Loki gestures as he folds himself onto the ledge by the window. He pulls a knee up to his chest and leans his cheek up against it. “Would you accept a glass from me?” he asks demurely.

Thor snorts. ”You are right, I would not.” He hesitates a moment longer before crossing the room and going to stand next to his brother. The universe spins out, endless, outside of their ark, colours of a bruise casting ghostly lights against Loki’s back and the side of his turned face. “It used to be one of your favourite tricks for your guests to find some nasty surprise at the bottom of their cups.” He offers his brother a wry look as he hands the bottle back.

Loki’s smile is small but not fully unhappy. “That was childish of me,” he agrees.

”You put snakes in my cup at my coronation.” Thor points out. “We were not children then.”

”Weren't we?" Loki asks lightly, and Thor's hackles rise, the prickle on the back of his neck like static before a storm. Loki is in some sort of mood tonight, not wholly hostile, but unsettled somehow, and Thor has ever known him to be changeable. He lifts the bottle in a sardonic salute and, smirking, tilts back his long throat and drinks deep. The glass slowly drains to clear as Loki finishes, gasping with satisfaction. He holds up the bottle, still three quarters full. "There, brother, you see?" he says, as he wipes the corners of his mouth. "Nothing to fear."

Something about the dark stain of Loki's mouth perturbs Thor in a way that strikes him wary and short of breath, but he takes the bottle back. His voice pitched low, he asks, with a cheer he does not truly feel, ”So what poison do you intend for the both of us then?”

Loki shakes his head and laughs. “No, not even poison.” His eyes are wet and a little unfocused. "Will you not drink?"

Thor hesitates a moment more but then, he too smiles shallowly and drinks. The liquor is hot on the tongue but surprisingly light, fruited like wine but without wine's cloying sweetness. He swallows. ”That is very fine," he says approvingly. The drink’s warm fingers spread down his throat and into his chest where they begin to pick at the knots tied up there. "I did not know we had anything near so fine on this ship. Is there more of it?" He tilts the bottle to read the label.

Loki scoffs. "Not enough to water your entire kingdom, if that's what you mean."

“A pity then.” Thor takes another generous swallow and the warmth spreads. These Sakaarian spirits are stronger than Asgardian mead, and Thor is beginning to think that he prefers it. “The kingdom could use a good watering after what it's just been through.” He raises the bottle. “A salutation then, to -- what are we drinking for?”

“A victory?” Loki shrugs. He moves to make room as Thor gingerly lowers himself down onto the seat next to him, careful to keep his distance. “Anything you like.”

Thor laughs hollowly. “That was a poor victory then, if that's what you'd call it.”

In the flickering light, Loki’s pale eyes shutter and he grins his brief and bitterly mirthless grin. He looks away and drinks, then leans again on his folded knee. “Do you grieve?” he asks perfectly without inflection.

Thor stops. He sees Loki’s fingers flexing white at the knuckles around each other even as his face remains impassive. His shoulders are set in perfect right angles to his spine. “You know,” Thor says contemplatively, “if you would have asked me that ten years ago, around the time you were still putting snakes in my cups, I would have said yes. I would have drank for our golden halls and our gleaming city and all of our sun-loved fields. But now." He sighs. Loki glances at him, the only indication that he is even listening. His eyes are wide and waiting. Around the room, the pale fires sputter in their wicks and spin. He has stopped his breathing. Thor reaches for him and lays the backs of his fingers lightly along his arm. Loki winces, takes a breath, but does not pull away.

Thor feels his own misgivings be gentled, and says softly, "I suppose that's what a loss as great as this shows you. When you have no choice but to choose, you pick out what's really important from the rest and you are happy that you get to keep it. We have lost so much, but it could have been more." His hand slowly flattens to curl around the lean muscle of Loki’s arm. Thor can feel the heat and the solid weight of him, welcome and familiar in a way that little else has been in these recent years.

"Brother," he begins softly. "Will you not grieve--"

"But what of all your worshippers?” Loki's expression when he turns is hard and terrible, red-rimmed eyes above a hooked sneer, and held in such rictus as if he were an animal trapped under thick ice. “Your great armies? Your Warriors Three?” he intones, as he yanks himself away from Thor’s touch, drawing back into himself once more. "Your Lady Sif?"

Thor draws his hands back into his own lap, stricken. What feats these hands have wrought, what power they hold, and yet he cannot claw back into them an ounce of his brother’s confidence. Has he not tried? Has he not let Loki draw near, examine every part of him and find him wary and uncertain, but sincere? He remembers the tentative proximity they had devised in the first night aboard the ship. Loki had asked and Thor had allowed him to draw him down, to examine his disfigured eye and to cleanse it and close what he could, to touch his fingertips through his shorn hair as he did it. What had that been but Thor's hopes laid bare? What had that been but Thor's soul beckoning: look at me; see me; recognise me; if we cannot be alone together then we will truly be alone.

Thor breathes deep and says, lowly, with a line of resignation understriking the words, “Have you brought me here to start a fight then, Loki?”

Loki's face, ruddy and savage with emotion, flinches violently. He blinks and then, as if swept by a great wind, his expression clears. “No, forgive me,” he says, his voice cool and easy. "I am." He shrugs, and, after a moment, waves his hand. The spinning lights right themselves. Another bottle appears between his fingers. He hands it to Thor and then he returns to himself, perfectly neat and self-contained.

Thor hates, suddenly, all of this, every measure of it: his brother’s carefully constructed dispassion and the way he will not fully meet Thor’s eyes; the choking fist of his own fear that this is how it has to be now, this is how they are going to be to one another from now on. Loki sits curled in on himself like a loose fist protecting a bruise and Thor is no more permitted to unfurl him to test his injury any more than he is to go back and undo Ragnarok. This he mourns, more than all else: that he used to know his brother, and he was known by him, trusted and was trusted. It used to be that when they were together, Thor had believed in immortality.

He is gripped by the sudden urge to touch Loki, as if that would make any difference, as if that would make anything better. It used to. He thinks it used to. Thor remembers how easy it had used to be to know where he was and how to make his way back because Loki would find his hand and guide him. He wants to take Loki by the shoulders and shake him, or to reach underneath the curtain of his hair and put his hand to skin.

But instead he is here, in this insatiable present that takes and takes and lets him have nothing back. Loki holds himself placidly as if nothing at all has been said or transpired, and Thor's despair turns to cold fury.

"Odin was right, you are devious and disdainful and difficult to love," Thor says icily. Loki looks at him, properly, finally. His eyes are open with surprise and confusion. Good. If Loki wants a fight then Thor is more than happy to give him one; he is hungry for Loki's pain, if he can have nothing else. Thor spurs on, heat rising up his neck and behind the sockets of his eyes, "You've found reason to hate everyone and everything that ever had the misfortune of crossing your path. Nothing is ever good enough for Loki; no one is ever good enough for Loki. There would always be something, some way you could distort an honest word into something evil, turn even the truest praise into injustice. You are so twisted we could use you as a corkscrew."

Loki recoils as if physically struck and Thor feels a rush of cruel satisfaction to see him hurt. Loki should hurt. If Thor must hurt than Loki can hurt. It is their basest of axioms: whatever Thor has, then Loki must have too.

"Little wonder why you were no good king," he spits, unsheathed now, seeking blood. He wants to see Loki break. "You look for shadows and schemes because your heart is filled with nothing but shadows and schemes. Little wonder, too, why you could not content yourself with the vast privileges of your station. You were Asgard’s prince and my brother and Odin's son, but still you found a way to be claim misuse. It is like you run from happiness. You are incapable of being grateful." He shoves the bottle back toward Loki with such force that it topples off its broad base. The fine spirits pours out of it in fat gluts.

His brother regards the drink soaking into his floor and splashing over his shoes. His pale face is awash with an awful flush. With a jerking gesture, he rights the bottle and the black liquid funnels itself back into it. He drinks for a long moment and then sets it down. His stillness has taken a different quality, wound and waiting, like a pendulum before the downswing. "I was not your brother, don’t you remember?" he says lowly. "Not your father's son, not your people's prince. I was nothing. That is what I ran from, being nothing."

Thor feels tension string through his muscles. Fighting he knows; fighting he can do; fighting comes naturally to him even if his heart is breaking. "You were one of us," he retorts through his teeth. "You were loved."

Loki lets out a great bark of a laugh and wheels to his feet. "I was not," he says poisonously. "Great Thor, mighty Thor, golden Thor, loved by all. Easy to love." He is pacing, his long strides eating up the little distance of the floor so that he has to turn every fourth step. His movement is disjointed, unhinged. Thor is reminded again of his brother, wild and caged, wreacking ruin upon himself when given nothing else to destroy. "Of course you wouldn’t see it," Loki scathes. "It is so difficult for the beloved to see that not all share in their condition, after all."

Thor draws back, raises his chin. His pulse is in his ears. He should never have come in the first place. He could have lived with what peace they had between them, and now he won't even have that. "Mother loved you," he challenges, his voice rising. "I loved you."

His brother flips his hand dismissively. "You loved everyone, what’s one more."

"I loved you best!"

Thor is on his feet as static gathers in the air. Loki stops, holds his gaze steadily, breathing hard. "I was happy," he says after a moment. "Perhaps it was never to any great effect, but I was happy once. But then, I was not who I thought I was." He drags in a breath and wrings together his trembling hands. "And I did not know what I know now." He stands in the middle of his sparse, dark little room and looks, suddenly, unspeakably small and lost. Thor steps toward him, but his brother looks up and fixes him with a glittering stare and he stops.

"So I have been selfish and self-serving, but who else but I served Loki-prince?" he says bitterly. "I was faithful to Asgard for over a thousand years and saw nothing but ashes for it. So if I took the things that Asgard would not give me in the end, ought I to be sorry?”

Thor huffs and breaks his gaze to hide his discomfort. "You were prince of the Nine Realms," he replies darkly. "What could you have possibly wanted for that could not be furnished to you?"

Loki snarls, "I have never had what I truly wanted, have you?" The room flares bright white for a moment and Thor startles, whirling about. Loki's foxfire pulses threateningly in its brazier.

Thor crosses his arms over his chest defiantly. He will not be cowed by a display of theatrics. "I had everything," he lies even though he knows it is not what Loki means.

Loki goes stiff and then, all at once, the venomous rage empties from his sharp face. He asks with a sudden, pleading sorrow, “Then do you not want?”

Greedy Thor, arrogant Thor does not respond, but his brother meets his burning gaze and seems to see through him. Thor’s heart is caught beneath his chin. He doesn’t know what Loki sees, but he prays that it is not everything.

Loki searches him a moment longer but then looks away. Thor feels a cavernous feeling as if he has been assessed somehow and found lacking. But Thor has won: his brother is crying and doing a poor job in hiding it. He waits for the satisfaction to come and to chase away the guilt.

But then Loki turns. "You're not the first I've disappointed with my unworthiness, brother," he says, quiet again, still again, distant. "You are hardly the first to cast me out because I did not suit. Hate me if you want, then," he says, a fissure opening beneath his smooth voice, "but I never hated them, your friends, your family, or Asgard. I only ever hated how they hated me, and yet you still loved them for it." He spreads his palm and light gathers between his fingertips. Thor knows what that is.

Thor lunges for him, his pulse in his ears, crossing the room in three quick strides. He seizes his brother by the wrist and Loki's pocket dimension snaps shut; whatever implement he was retrieving dissolves back into the darkness. Loki jerks away instinctively but Thor holds him tight. "I am not casting you out!" he cries. He crowds into him with his body, Loki stepping back for his every step forward until the wall stops them both. Thor pins his brother's arm. Loki looks jolted a moment, confusion opening his face as Thor leans his weight against him. They are both breathing hard. "I am not," he repeats.

Loki shoves at him with his free arm, his hand balling and gripping him menacingly by the open collar of his chest plate. "No?" he asks, acid hissing through his voice once more. "Odd, then, how that was what it sounded like."

"I was only angry," Thor says, his mouth dry, bracing, expecting the violence of his brother's anger. "I didn’t mean what I said." But Loki isn't fighting him. Thor knows how his brother fights, has been stung by those deadly hands often enough; he knows that his brother is not a man easily mastered. But Loki gasps, as though Thor has hurt him, and beneath Thor's agony and his racing pulse, a black thrill runs him through. He changes his grip on Loki's wrist, and pushes his shoulder back until his arm bends up above his head. Loki lets him, watching. Thor's mind races; his terror mounts. He feels powerful. "Brother, I didn't mean it," he rasps. "Don't go." He is trembling.

Loki's eyes grow narrow. "Oh, Thor," he breathes, "are you frightened?"

"Yes," Thor says readily. "Is that so surprising to you?" He needs to let him go, but instead his grip tightens on Loki's arm. He feels Loki's throat working, the subtle movements of his head and neck, and he feels, again, the stirring, ugly cruelty that has lived inside him all his life. Its pulse fills his mouth, like a separate thing from his own. Thor's blood and body ignite for one indomitable moment before the guilt overruns him, his own self-disgust. He puts his face into his brother's shoulder so that he might avoid his incising gaze. "Yes, I am frightened," he says hollowly. "I did not want this."

Thor is lowly and vulgar and undeserving of being called a man. He is the very basest creature, captive to his vagaries, caring for nothing but his own comfort and gratification. He will destroy this cobweb peace between them for an upper hand, drive his brother away in a fit of pique, and for what?

He feels Loki stiffen as Thor's misery makes him dull and heavy. "Want what, be specific," his brother hisses. He shoves at Thor again, curses crackling in his fist this time, no mere punctuation.

"Any of this. All of it," Thor mutters thickly. His feels his own breath hot on his face as the leather shoulders of Loki's shirt repel it back to him. The trap in his throat cannot contain his every secret, and what spills out does so like a cut vein. "Odin’s kingdom, the crown, the fate of Asgard." He squeezes his eyes shut and grieves that he cannot even be with Loki, cannot ask of him to share a drink without Loki's bad faith and his own bad impulses coming between them.

They truly are ruined, he thinks, as he counts his brother's quick heartbeats through his palm, and Thor can be neither the man he wants to be nor the man he needs to be anymore. "I did not want for them to take me," he says. "I did not want to become that which I hated, what you hated, what had killed you and our mother and made our father a stranger to us. I thought I would rather die, but now it is here anyway, and there is nowhere left for me to run."

There is a pause and then Loki says, his voice soft and careful. "It is kingship, brother. It is what we were born to do."

Thor lets out a breath like a sob. "It is a rotten job, Loki. It is rotten to its core." He lifts his head and searches his brother's face. "It consumes you, it becomes your world until your heart may hold nothing but it, and your soul may love nothing but it, and you would rather see your queen die for it and your sons disgraced for it rather than lose even a fraction of it."

Loki is not crying anymore. He looks upon Thor with such bewilderment and concern that Thor wishes, once more, to hide his despair, but that his brother deserves to be looked in the eye. "Would that I were only a man," he continues. "Would that this were only an occupation of a father being passed to a son, but it is not. It is a wolf at my door, brother, and I must let it in, but I cannot do it without you beside me."

Loki's brows are pinched, his iridescent eyes wide with honest heartache. He lifts his hand from the wall and Thor lets him go. He feels a touch alight on his temple, between the chevroned scars on his scalp. "I did not think it would hurt you so," his brother says in wonderment. He touches fingertips to the corners of Thor's eye where his sorrow has gathered but not fallen, and Thor only wishes that his brother could let himself be held.

"You are better made for it than I," Thor tells him as Loki tugs on him and Thor's head falls back down against his brother's throat. Loki hums and lays his cool hand lightly along the back of his skull, stroking contemplatively. Thor allows himself to be pacified, and the shameful, screaming something in his heart quietens for the moment, as it only ever does beneath his brother's hands. He sighs. "I need your strength and your wisdom and your friendship, Loki." He fists his fingers into the flanks of Loki's shirt and pulls meaningfully. "You asked me if I did not want, and that is it. I want you here with me. I want us to be friends again."

"We cannot be friends."

Thor looks up. His brother's eyes are wet but he smiles beatifically. "We cannot be friends," he repeats. "I will serve Asgard, I will be your brother, and I will serve you, but even I, poor fool that I am, must keep something for myself. Don't you see?" he says, his voice cracking with a building fervour. "I am as you say that I am: unworthy and ungrateful and the keeper of my own misery. I used to wish that I wasn't, but I am. And I must keep something, or else I shall have nothing at all." His fingers flex unconsciously on the edge of Thor's plate armour and, with a crunching snap, the metal rends beneath them. Loki hisses.

Thor stops him. "Loki, brother," he says, picking up his narrow hand and enfolding it between the both of his. Loki quakes, on the verge of something, and Thor sympathises even as he doesn't know what it is. He keeps his eyes cast low as he presses their hands together. "It's all right, I understand," he says, even though he does not. "Enough, hm? We are both fools." He shakes him lightly. "That's enough."

Loki's bruised hand spasms and he almost jerks it back into himself by instinct, but that Thor grasps him gently by the wrist and does not let him go. Wild-eyed, his brother stares at him, uncomprehending, first, and then recognition comes back into him. "Yes," Loki gasps. "I'm sorry. I." His fingers curl within Thor's rough palm, and warmth drifts through the pulses of Thor's blood to have his brother holding his hand again. "I am sorry." He drops his chin and looks away.

Thor shakes his head. "I have my own wrongs that I have done, and it has only been these recent years that I have had occasion to think back on them. You are right, you know," he says, smoothing his thumb over the back of his brother's knuckles for emphasis. "I have, in the past, regarded myself too highly, and I saw it as my natural right to trample over those who were less fortunate that I."

Loki huffs a little breath. "It is not difficult to do when you are the best." He wipes at his face with his sleeve and offers to Thor a smile, small and self-deprecating, but sincere -- a delicate branch, newly budded, tentatively extended but an offer of peace nonetheless.

Thor returns his smile. "No, I suppose it isn't, but I am sure that doesn't excuse it. Loki," he says, and it is as if he is finally undoing a weight that has always hung around his neck, "I am sorry."

His brother's expression remains deceptively pleasant. "For what? Be specific," he says again, a flat whisper, either soft or deadly but which refuses to reveal itself to be either.

Thor knows; he has known for a while now. His errors were ever small slights, little wrongs, but together they built a wall between them as high as the sky. But now, his brother knocks on the other side, and his humility is a small price to pay to see it torn down. He is ready to be done with it now, here, at the end of the world. "For what I said, just now" he says. "For speaking over you, in years past. For behaving as if you owed me your obedience," he says. "For taking it for granted that you were my brother and," he sighs expansively.

"For never seeing you for yourself, I suppose," he muses. He puts his hand to his brother's shoulder and stands back enough to look Loki in the eye. "You are your own man. Your path is your own to take, and though we may walk together, we do not belong to the same fate."

"You do not belong to me," he says, watching Loki watch him and knowing that, this time, he has been heard. "You are my brother, but you don't belong to me."

Thor holds his gaze with all the plain equanimity he can summon and releases his brother's hand. He waits for him to draw it back, but Loki only closes his eyes, for one slow moment. When he opens them, they are the color of sunlight passing through a calm ocean and for once, no drowned secrets lie beneath. "You have grown wise," his brother muses. He laughs, and it is a bell-clear sound, beautiful and weightless. He bows his head regally. "Worthy Thor, I am honoured."

Thor laughs, his throat thick with relief as Loki steps into him once more. He leans his cheek against Thor's shoulder and allows him to take his weight. Thor settles his arm around the back of Loki's body, and holds himself so still that he almost stops breathing. "Do you still hate me then?"

Loki settles into this new posture, his hand still resting lightly in Thor's palm. "I could never hate you," he says easily, as if this were ever plainly evident to anyone who has wished to learn it. "I was angry with you, but I never hated you."

Thor lifts his eyebrows and laughs aloud, surprised. "You have turned over a new leaf. That's more honesty than I've heard from you in aeons, brother."

Loki shrugs. "There's no harm in it now," he says. He turns Thor's hand over and idly traces his fingertip along the tendon between each knuckle. Thor's heart clenches. It was only ever his brother who would touch him like this and Thor cannot remember the last time Loki had touched him. "There are none now amongst the living who would laugh at me." A pause. "I am sorry about your friends."

Thor hums gravely. "So am I." He drops his chin gingerly atop his brother's dark hair and breathes deep of the scent of him. It is familiar and as warming as drink. He sways them together, lightly. "But they each died a warriors' deaths, and when the turning of the world comes and death comes for all of us, I shall see them again in Valhalla and be happy for it."

"Then let us drink to that." Loki ducks beneath his arm and goes to retrieve the bottle. Thor feels the loss but he follows him gladly, still holding his hand. Loki holds the liquor aloft. "To the turning of the world. To Valhalla," he announces. He drinks and, so close, Thor can see his throat working as he swallows.

When his brother presses the bottle into his hand, Thor looks at him. He says wryly, before he drinks, "Loki, we are not going to die for a very long time yet."

Loki snorts. "That is optimistic." He draws Thor back down onto the widow ledge, and Thor goes with him. Thor decides he can accept the substitute when Loki sits close and pushes them together, shoulder to hip.

"You don't believe that," Thor needles him, knocking him with his elbow. "You haven't changed so much that you would maroon yourself on a doomed ship, if you truly thought it hopeless."

Loki re-balances himself and rolls his eyes. "Well I still might leave if it suits me. You said it yourself." He flaps a hand blithely, but the cut of his words is prickly, "I am my own man, after all."

Thor's lips tighten over his teeth. "Will you?" Something hard and challenging flattens his voice, some sudden thunder, like the sort that breaks upon a fine spring day. "Are you going?"

Loki looks at him levelly but then he sighs. "No," he says peevishly, ducking away, "but I don't see why you can't just play along with it."

Thor moves the bottle away when Loki reaches for it. Loki frowns at him, annoyed, but Thor holds his gaze, unblinking, until Loki flushes beneath his pallor and looks away again. Thor doesn't let him. He catches his brother's face with his palm and turns him, his thumb holding firm upon the hard angle of Loki's jaw. Loki lets himself be turned. His face is hot. "I'm finished with playing that game with you, brother," Thor says, all humour gone. It is as if he is doomed to have this same conversation forever. He thinks back to all the times before that he has begged for his brother's constancy, and, like a mirror reflected back on itself, it is as if he looks endlessly into one image. "I will not grieve you a third time," he says. "Stay or don't, only choose one and do it."

Loki blinks rapidly. "Do you want me to stay?" He sounds choked and breathless.

Thor releases him. "Of course I want you to stay, I always want you to stay." Exasperated, his hand drifts up toward his crown to sweep in past his hair, only to remember, once it is there, that he has no hair to push back from his face. He has forgotten where and when he is. "If it were up to me, you would have never left me in the first place, but I am not your tyrant."

"No," Loki says softly, his hands twisting together in his lap. "No, you are only my brother."

Thor shakes his head and drains the rest of the drink in one swallow. "You know, historically, every time we try to talk about this, you cause a great big fuss, we fight, I beat you, and then you leave anyway." He scrapes irritably at his beard. "So do forgive me if I tire of retreading this path again."

"That was before," his brother says. He pulls his knee back to his chest and leans against it, away from Thor. His hair spills like ink over his shoulder and he looks at once exhausted and boyish, self-conscious and ancient. "And I will not apologise for it."

Thor rounds on him. "Who's asking you to?" he snaps. Loki does not respond. Thor scoffs. "So, what? Is that it? One last drink for old times’ sake?"

"That's not it."

"Then what is it, Loki?"

"Here," Loki says, producing a new bottle, amber in colour and heavier than the last. "Drink."

Thor takes it. He rips up the cork and drains the bottle with spiteful obedience. It burns. "If you're trying to get me drunk so it hurts less in the morning, it's not going to work."

"Did it hurt before?"

"Of course it bloody hurt, you blistering idiot," Thor spits. He feels fragile, cracking along his edges. "I thought you dead, twice. I drank Asgard dry the first time and I simply left after the second."

"I know." Loki slips his hand back into Thor's. It is as much comfort as it is concession, but Thor takes it anyway, pressing tight.

"I know you know." They were the worst times of his life, his world collapsed in upon him with him still trapped inside. He can hardly remember them at all, only in bursts, only in non-specifics, but of course, Loki had not intervened -- indifferent, always, as if Thor and the way his world was ending were specimen in a jar. Thor scrubs his face and holds his palm there over his aching eyes. "Thrice damned, since when are you so solicitous after my feelings." He would pull himself away from his brother's touch, if only he were not a coward.

Loki leans into him, puts his head again on Thor's shoulder. His touch and voice are faint. "I always care about your feelings, brother. Sometimes I wish I didn't, but I --" He trails off, stops.

Thor waits a beat, and then a scowl forms heavily over his brow. "Is this some new habit of yours, starting sentences and then... " He gestures. When Loki does not look away this time, he urges impatiently, "Well? You what?"

"I cannot seem to disregard your dislike for me."

Thor rolls his eyes. "I've always admired you, Loki, you know that."

"Do I?"

Thor throws up his hands and leans back against the windowglass. "Cleverest man in Asgard!" he exclaims. "Cleverer than our father -- my father," he corrects irritably, "yes, all right." He looks at his brother, whose cautious eyes regard him as a that of cornered beast's regarding the hunter. Thor looks at him directly, unyielding. "You're strong Loki, and you're brilliant, and you might have been wiser than Odin one day. We all thought it; mother said so all the time. She always said that if I were ever to rule, that there was no better man than you to have at my side, and I thought it to. You have the head for rule, and the heart--"

Loki shakes his head violently, compulsively. "Not the heart, no. I've never--" He is vibrating, his eyes screwed shut, and he does not seem able anymore to choose his own words. "You, you, you're beautiful, you're perfect--"

"Brother."

"No, you see, I could never see past it, I tried." The set of Loki's face wavers, his pale eyes trapped between two incompatible realities, both truths. He looks angry and hopeful, terrified and desperately sad -- snared between belief and doubt. Thor knows that feeling. It is the same feeling caught within his own breast. "I couldn't envy you for it, so I tried to hate you, but I couldn't. Even when we were apart, even when I thought you lost from me for good, down in that cell." He covers his face with his palms as if to stopper his own voice, but all he says next it is only muffled instead, "And I could never be happy. All I could ever do was want for things that I couldn't name and couldn't get."

Thor sighs. "I know. Brother, I know." He remembers the devastation that had wrecked him when he thought Loki dead, the way his insides had grown to ice and splintered as Loki had gone cold between his arms. He remembers how Jane's little, lukewarm hands had brought him up from his knees and he had looked at her as a stranger, comprehending at last that he was in a world of strangers now. His brother was dead and he would never know happiness again.

Loki's eyes search his. Thor doesn't know if he can put to speech what it is his brother is looking for, but he prays that he will find it. He chafes Loki's hand in both of his and, lost for words, presses his lips to the back of his own palm. Loki's breath shivers. He whispers, "It is not fair when I've never had room in my heart for anything but you."

When Loki kisses him, it does not feel like a surprise.

Thor responds swiftly, sweeping Loki into his lap and holding him there as Loki's vicious mouth yields beneath his. His hands seek skin, and it is given to him freely, gladly; Loki bends to meet him and his clothes part beneath Thor's hands like butter. Loki tastes of quicksilver and of the sun through new leaves, of midwinter firelight and the air after a storm. Thor remembers, now, every touch that has brought them to this, every brotherly assurance, every passing glance, every bruise -- and behind it, always, this bare and incomprehensible yearning.

Loki moans, intimate and open, and the unnameable becomes named, the shame given absolution. The whole of his life snaps suddenly into complete and perfect focus. This has been his monster all along, this clawing want, this unspeakable hunger so constant that it burned at the bottom of his every breath. Unaddressed, unacknowledged its whole long life, it had deformed him.

As Loki's mouth smears over his cheek, as his light fingers find the seams of their crude, hewn bodies and rend, it feels like standing up after a lifetime spent in a bend; it feels like the first full breath after only ever having sipped on air. Thor knows freedom for the first time he can remember, and the gnawing teeth behind all of his fear and worry and strangling precautions draw back into their ugly heads. The great inviolable question of his soul finds its answer at last: it was Loki. It was only ever Loki.

When he seizes the back of Loki's head and returns him to his mouth, his brother sighs. Thor can feel something stubborn inside of himself give way beneath the hot silk of Loki's skin and the cold marble underneath, and then, all at once Thor can feel Loki pouring through him, subtle as smoke, sharp as electricity, and when Thor pushes back, Loki opens his soul to him in welcome.

It is elemental, organic, as the way fire consumes or how the heavens turn. It is like every colour bound together into one, like sunlight. Thor can see himself through Loki's eyes, the familiar geography of his features mapped and given beautiful names: the cheekbone by which Loki has measured all other faces; the precise warmth and weight of his hands between which Loki finds his solace and his comfort; his stubborn mouth which Loki has learned for its every curve, its every salacious expression.

Thor smashes open the long-kept reservoir of his own stolen inspections, his persistent fascinations, and a flood rises within him of Loki's every aspect which he has held in covetous admiration: the fine and twining musculature of his neck and arms; the sharp, watchful intelligence behind his eyes; the deft, sinuous migration of his fingers as he weaves his spells.

Loki holds Thor within himself and Thor knows, all at once, a love so personal as a love of self, glorious as a love of empire, so desperate as a love of air or water or sustenance. Loki lives within all of him and Thor knows now that he lives within Loki as well. They have been half of each other's lives, the whole of the other's hearts, and now with the crude boundaries of their bodies and minds dissolved, Thor knows who he is. He is Loki's. Loki is his. This is truth.

Loki gasps through his open mouth, sparks igniting in his vision through Thor's eyes. Thor matches him and the both of them tremble beneath the glittering weight that has settled, diaphanous and encompassing over their shoulders. Loki buckles and Thor hides his face into his pulse.

When he catches Loki into his arms, it feels like coming home

Thor comes into himself again in pieces. When he opens his eyes, it is difficult to remember how to see again through just his own one eye, how to feel with just his skin. Loki clings to him, draped over his lap, his clothes in ruin, his limbs shivering and soft. They breathe together, as one lung, and Thor cannot stop himself from seeking the white skin of Loki's neck. His brother moves against him and captures his mouth with his own gasping mouth. His hands spread over Thor's shining arms, caressing, while Thor threads his fingers into Loki's dark, soft hair.

When Loki breaks them apart, it is so gentle that it feels like a promise rather than punishment. Thor moans. "Again." The music is his voice is lost beneath the crush of his desire.

But Loki holds him fast, his panting mouth mere breathes away, only when Thor moves, Loki does not rise to meet him. He shakes his head. "I only wanted to see," he says, as if through a dream. He touches Thor's cheek. His eyes are still shut, and he moves so slowly and clumsily that Thor steals another kiss from him before he can do anything about it.

Thor chuckles. He draws Loki's thumb into his mouth and works the knuckle with his teeth and tongue. Beneath the flickering, golden light, his brother's eyes are nearly black when they open and Thor can hear his naked want calling to his own. Thor grins. "What can I show you, brother?" He shifts a subtle measure and, for a moment, Loki's weight comes off his knees and seats fully into his lap.

Loki's breath catches. He draws his finger from between Thor's teeth and wets his curving lip. He presses his brow to Thor's, shuddering. His voice crackles as he whispers, "How it might feel to be whole."

"What do you mean?" Thor hums. His eye drifts open and then shut, and every time he closes it, he can feel the afterimages of Loki's every thought. He reaches out, touches a stray, cold curl of his brother’s building anxiety, and feels it disintegrate into light. Thor tugs on Loki's hands, kisses the hinge of his jaw and a hard coiling knot of it begin to dissolve. Loki protests faintly but he begins to struggle. Thor clamps an arm around his waist. "No, there, sit there a while," Thor insists, putting his bearded cheek against his brother's beating chest and feeling it scratch though Loki's skin. Loki grasps at his forearm. "Stay," Thor says petulantly. "You said you would stay."

"This is absurd," Loki complains. He shifts on his knees, poorly balanced on the narrow seat. "I am too tall for this."

"I don't care." He touches the back of Loki's hand on his arm and Loki lifts it readily. Thor lines their fingertips together and Loki slips his in between. He wants to put Loki onto his back and learn the taste of his heartbeat through his skin. He wants to touch his hidden thoughts and secret melancholies and learn their every shape and texture. He wants to spread his brother out into pieces, evenly, meticulously, until he is naught but motes of shimmering dust and Thor is the same.

"I do not think I could bear it if you tried for decorum right now." Thor lifts his head, smiling, his throat fully bared, and Loki touches it in wonderment, his protests forgotten.

"I would know..." Thor hears his brother murmur, so low that Thor thinks he might have imagined it. But then Loki smiles. "Take me to bed then." He kisses Thor softly. "I am cold."

Thor lifts him easily, and Loki lets him -- he lets him, god, the things Thor can do now that Loki will let him, now that he is permitted. He sets Loki atop the bedclothes and Loki watches him with unadorned hunger as Thor steps back and works deftly at the clasps and buckles of his chestplate.

"Come," he calls quietly when Thor is sufficiently bare, and he receives Thor into his bed as if he has been doing it all his life. Ensconced within the bedsheets, Loki arranges them so that they are half on top of one another. Thor kisses him again and Loki makes small, infuriating, amenable sounds as his hands drift aimlessly over Thor's skin.

But Thor wants more. He would bring Loki to the very brink of his own body, damp-skinned and pleading for Thor's mercy.

Loki groans and shivers as Thor manoeuvres him beneath his body. He would bend as Thor would bend him; he would unfurl however Thor would unfurl him. Thor knows this. He tastes his brother's anticipation and acquiescence like spilt wine. Already his elegant hands manacle themselves to the crossbars of his headboard at Thor's behest, his flanks and front spread and stretched deliciously for Thor's tasting mouth.

Thor cups his palm beneath the bend of Loki's knee, and lifts it smoothly back. The colours of Loki's mind ignite and darken. "I would know thee by thy body," he says, but it is Loki's oaths that come out. Loki groans. Thor blinks, returns, and slowly grins.

"And I would my body give to thee," Thor finishes. He waits a moment as the disbelief twists his brother's face and then resolves. Loki looks at him, new marvel in his eyes. He surges suddenly and kisses Thor, and then Thor is awash in his brother's soaring relief, his bottomless joy. His mind comes away lurid with the places of his body that Loki has imagined Thor's hands, his mouth. Loki shuts his eyes as Thor lays him back. He covers his face with his wrists. "Yes," he breathes. "To thee."

The great yawning pit of his want joins Thor's in the bottom of his stomach, as Thor fits them together and then fits himself inside.

Loki moves with him, pulled by the same tide, moved by the same moon. The geography of Loki's soul opens for him and Thor arrives upon it softly. Loki fills him, envelopes him, and Thor touches through his every thought and sensation as it passes through his grasp. It will never be enough, Thor despairs, though he is not certain if it is his thought or Loki's when it emerges. This was what Loki had meant; this was the danger all along. They've been given a single mouthful of kindness and now must know what it is to live without. They could each live ten thousand years and spend every minute of it in each other's arms, and it would not be enough.

But Loki shakes his head and opens his dark eyes. "It can be," he says, almost voiceless. "It has to be." He pulls his heels into the small of Thor's back and brings him closer. "I could not bear it otherwise." He winds his fingers into the damp buzz of Thor's hair and pulls him down to him. "Kiss me and let us dwell no more on it," he says, and Thor does as he is told, grateful, overcome, knowing the end but willing for forever.

Power builds within his body, ready and aching. Outside the window, a swirl of cosmic dust churns, violet explosions flashing through violet clouds. He glows beneath his skin, but Loki opens his mouth to him and catches his kiss as if he were tasting rain. He shudders as he comes, as Thor follows him, as Thor's blue lightning fills him, holds him gently, wreathes them both.

Loki allows him fold them together again afterwards, allows Thor to arrange them so that they can see each other as they lay together breathing. Thor's pulse is quiet within him even as his heart hums with one harmonious note. The great storm of his life, the one he had never even known he was weathering, has ended. Thor is clean, new, and the long, long past recedes easily beneath the placid waves. He looks into his brother's smooth, flushed face and he sees his future.

Thor puts his lips to his brother's brow and smiles against his skin. "I adore you," Loki says in a small voice. His fingers tighten at Thor's waist and Thor lifts his chin so that Loki may tuck himself beneath it.

Thor laughs drowsily. "I know that," he says. "You don't know how glad it makes me." Loki's dark hair has fallen from its part and it drags in cool coils across Thor's arm. Thor puts his hand through it, sweeping it back and his brother looks up at him, his eyes sober.

"I do," Loki says. His mind, always working, momentarily quietened, moils once more. Thor frowns. "It is beyond reason, brother. It is more than anything; it is more than life." Placating, Thor touches his cheek and Loki turns into him immediately. He kisses Thor's palm. "You could skin me like a lamb and my last thought would be how I love you," he says fiercely.

Thor turns his face. "I would not," he says, horrified. "I would never." Loki's brows gain a troubled furrow but he looks away, assenting. Thor strokes the furl with his thumb until Loki relinquishes it. He takes Thor's hand and kisses it once more, then lets it slide back into his hair. Thor strokes him and says more softly, "And what does it matter if it is beyond reason, if I am the same?"

"No, but can't you see?" Loki drops his head into Thor's shoulder again. "This --" he gestures miserably. "This is unnatural."

"How do you mean?" Thor lets him hide. If it makes it easier for him, Thor will hide him from himself. "So we are lovers now," he says and feels Loki's breath hitch. "So what? We share no blood, and even if we did, who would challenge it?" He strokes the line of his back until Loki breathes again, however raggedly. "We are kings of Asgard, brother, what authority reigns higher?" A laugh escapes him on a wet, choked breath and Thor rocks him, lightly, forming himself around the warm, solid, precise weight of him.

"Don't cry," he says. "Don't make yourself miserable. We've found each other now. I love you, and I have wanted you all my life." He kisses his brother's damp cheek. "I was blind not to see it before but I do see it now."

Loki pulls back and looks at him. His smile is wistful and pained. "You may say to me every beautiful word that I have ever wished to hear, and it would still be true." He unwinds himself from Thor's limbs and rises up to his elbows. Thor touches his arm, deploring the loss, as Loki wipes at his face with the backs of his wrists. "It is not the quality of love but the quantity of it," he says bitterly. He pulls at Thor's grip. "Let go," he says, quieter. "When you touch me, I can feel you inside my head."

"Yes," Thor accedes cautiously, but he does it anyway because his brother asks, "and you're inside mine." Loki sits up from the bed in one determined movement and slides off the side. Thor sits up as well, alarmed. "What's the matter?"

His brother is at his closet, and Thor watches as, one at a time, pieces dissolve from their hangers and resolve themselves on Loki's skin.

"Loki." Thor crosses the room to where Loki is standing and catches him by the elbow. A wall of dread goes up in his brother's mind, but Thor pushes past it, back into the centre of him. Loki turns to him, expressions of fear and fury, gratefulness and regret warring in the tiny movements of his brow and lips. Thor kisses him, and as before, Loki returns it without hesitation. Thor steeps into it every measure of affection he can muster, every tender feeling and assurance. His brother falters, but he steps into him. His hands waver as he slips them around the back of Thor's neck.

"Tell me what is the matter," Thor says again as he pulls his brother back into his arms.

Loki shakes his head. "You don't understand, I never." His hands fist against Thor's shoulders as Thor absently tucks a strand of his dark hair back behind his ear, and he nearly sobs. Loki takes a breath. "You know nothing; you deserve to know," he bites out. "This is not you or me. We are cursed. Odin cursed us."

Thor flinches at the sound of his father's name before he can stop himself. "What?" he demands. "How?"

His brother laughs wetly. "You know, I hoped you'd be drunker for this. You're always so much more tractable when you're drunk. You don't ask nearly so many questions." He jerks, but Thor's arms have been turned to stone. "Unhand me," he says unhappily.

"No." He can feel his brother's self-recrimination and doubt, his panic like an acid bubbling beneath the an indelible anger. He can feel his need for flight. It hits him like a fist and brings up to the surface all of Thor's own dread, his own terror.

Loki struggles again, but Thor is unmovable. "At least let me finish dressing," he scolds.

"No," Thor intones. "Explain it or don't, it matters very little to me." He looks at his brother, his eyes hard. "What do I care for curses, Odin's or no? Sod him, he was an old man with an old man's schemes. What did he know? My god, Loki, Loki." He holds his brother to him as if that were all that would make the difference, and cups his hand to Loki's face with all the murderous adoration of a cheated supplicant. "If you leave me again after this, I will never forgive you, I swear it."

Loki shakes his head. "It was he who made us like this!" he cries. One more time, he shoves at Thor, and this time Thor lets him go. Loki rounds the room, his hands flying, frantic as loosed birds. "That's why he took me," he says. His eyes are wide, landing on nothing and everything. At last he sits himself again on the edge of the bed. "I was never meant to be your brother." His head sinks into his hands, muffles his voice. "But only that I turned out," he gestures, "as I am."

Ice runs down through Thor's veins. "What do you mean?"

Loki looks up at him from above his fingertips. "Did he never tell you how he lost his eye?"

"Yes," Thor replies, crossing his arms, "he told all of us; it was never a secret. He traded it to the Norns for the wisdom to rule his kingdom."

"Yes," Loki agrees, "to rule, to ensure his line evermore." He breathes deep and sits back, casting his eyes to the ceiling. "Without slander, what do you know about the Jotnar?"

Thor sighs. He is reminded of when they were young, when his brother would try to teach him philosophy by irritating him with questions until he found the answers. "They are giants," he answers dutifully. "They are fierce warriors, they are... Blue?" Loki looks at him expectantly. Thor shrugs belligerently. "I do not know what you wish me to say."

"How do they fight?"

"With their ice magic--"

"Yes." Loki holds up one long finger. "Magic."

Thor rolls his eyes. He remembers this too, when Loki used to lead him to answers and make him feel like an idiot for not grasping their significance. "I do not understand," he concedes.

But Loki keeps going. "Your grandmother, your father's mother, who was she?"

Thor frowns. "I never met her, but she was a great lady of--"

"She was a Jotun," Loki pronounces. He stands back up again and begins pacing the room, his hands clasped behind his back as if in recital. "She betrayed her race and coupled with an Aesir, your grandfather, who made her a new body, a white body," Loki gestures to himself, to the pale skin of his torso that Thor had marked in worship. “She, in turn, gave her magic to her many sons, of which your father slew one by one until Asgard was his alone. That is the custom, is it not?"

Thor shakes his head, his mouth dry. He feels like he's falling, like his earth is moving beneath him, and like Loki is the only still point he can conceive, but that he won't hold still. "But I was never asked to slay you."

Loki makes a dismissive gesture. "We'll get there," he says, distractedly, "but for now consider this: your father's line runs thin. He has slain his brothers for his father's kingdom and his mother's magic but neither will have him -- he is not the most worthy, only the most brutal."

Thor feels an old instinct of obligation stir within him to defend the Allfather's name, but what does he know? What has he ever known except for what his father had taught him? He had doubted, of course, but it was ever unspoken, all spoken words too close, somehow, too loud.

Loki continues without mercy, "Odin paid the Norns, and they gave him wisdom." He spits the word. "And when it was time for him to get his get, he married a Vanir witch, your mother."

"Our mother," Thor snaps.

Loki startles, but then he sees Thor's face. "Yes," he concedes, "all right," but he goes to Thor then and slides himself back into the empty spot left next to him. He kisses Thor briefly, just left of his mouth, and then takes his hands and leads him back to the bed. Thor lets Loki sit him down and then himself over his lap. He loops his hands around him at once and lets his brother feed him the warmth and calm of his body.

Loki continues more softly, "Mother gives him Hela, you see, and he crafts her into a killer. But once the killing is done, she outlives her usefulness to him. And so now he needs another child. Someone who will rule after him."

"Me."

"Yes," Loki says, and he lays his long hand against Thor's face. "You, my brother." He says it with a sudden tenderness, as if he were sorry.

Thor swallows his agony so that Loki might see nothing but stone in his face. "Tell me the rest then."

Loki leans his head against his anyway. "Vanir magic is learned, so cannot be given, and it is not true seith," he says. "And Odin will not give up what he killed so many to take. So you are to have no magic of your own, no magic to give to your heirs, no magic for the whole of Odin's line because he cannot let go of anything." He nods in resignation. "So he goes to the source."

"Jotunheim," Thor finishes for him. How the old rage he had felt towards Odin those years back pales now in the light of this clarion fury. He who had cast them as worthy and unworthy, as noble and ignoble, who cast himself as justice and judge -- he who was himself a murderer and a thief. Thor had faced his father's many faults, counted and mourned them and had privately abjured him as a king but loved him still as a father. How can he love him now? "He takes you."

"Yes." Loki sighs, and Thor would keep him here forever if he could, as though he could be shielded from the rest of the world's misery by Thor's body. "I was Laufey's only child, you see. I had the purest blood to share."

"And then?"

Loki begins a gesture with one hand but then lets it drop. "Then he binds us," he says tiredly. "It's a simple enough ritual. Even Odin Death-Bringer could do it. I did--" he says. He swallows. He closes his eyes and leans into Thor. They hold each other up. "I suspected something of the sort," he confesses. "Years ago now, I went to speak to the Norns. They laughed when I asked them to answer my questions. They're greedy, you know. They answer to no one without a price."

Thor's hands tighten along his brother's hip. His pulse is already in his mouth, but the horror comes anyway. "What did you give them?"

Loki waves him off impatiently. "Nothing of importance, nothing you'd miss."

"Tell me anyway," Thor demands.

"I have seen my death."

Terror runs the very heart of him through. "Brother," he rasps.

Loki shrugs evasively. "I don't know when," he supplies, as if that were an assurance.

"Tell me how it happens at least."

"So that you might defy the Norns?" Loki looks at him, and Thor stares back, conceding nothing, stubborn even as he knows the immutability of the fates.

"It is nothing," Loki says at last. "It's innocence, and what good have I ever had for innocence? But they showed me what I wanted, and I found it where they said I would." He holds his hand up and the light of his pocket dimension shines again.

Thor reaches out on numb instinct, alarmed. "Wait, hold on."

But what emerges is nothing he recognizes, only a piece of silver, the size and shape of an egg, striated like the rings of a tree or of a thumbprint. Thor reaches out for it, but Loki pulls it back. "Don't touch it," he says softly. "I don't know what would happen if we both touched it. Nothing good, I suspect. They'll want to go home."

"It's--" Thor begins, but some part of him already knows.

"It's our souls," his brother tells him. It glows, faintly with its own dim light that seems almost blue against Loki's skin. "I found them buried beneath the roots of Yggdrasil. They weren't doing anyone any good there, so I took them. I thought maybe I could work to separate them, but," he shrugs.

"Here," he says. "Hold out your hand." Thor does so, and Loki drops it into his hand from a height. Thor turns it over, examining. It is heavy, heavier than he expected, but the shape does not hold, smoothly amorphous in his palm. The striations, as they had appears, are not striations at all but folds of beaten metal.

"Why?" he asks. It had been warm to the touch at first, but quickly he feels his skin going numb as if of cold. He tosses it into his other hand. The vessel warms comfortably this time even as Thor flexes his fingers until the feeling returns.

Loki twists his hands together in his lap and shrugs. "Odin needed to bind me into his line somehow, and so he did it in the most obdurate manner possible." A color of deep shame crawls up his pale shoulders. "You were to be my collar and my chain and now you see now how gladly I would have worn them. How happy I would have been to let you unmake me. What a different life we might have had--" His voice pitches and cracks, Thor reaches to steady him, but he regains himself.

"But as it turned out, I could not take up the necessary utility to give you heirs, and so he was forced to made us up this farcical brotherhood. It wasn't his fault," he says sardonically, "how was he to know? What difference is a Jotun man to a Jotun woman to a Jotun dog to an Aesir. We are all monsters after all."

Thor is frozen within himself. The whole of his history, of Asgard's history, has been turned on its head, and he would say that his brother was lying; he wants to believe that his brother is lying, except that he feels Loki's misery and fear and repudiation. He feels Loki's sour heartbeat in his own chest.

"Loki," he says, but Loki is gone from him, and though he holds the weight and warmth of him, he might as well hold to him an armful of air. He has so many questions and no way to ask them, no words that he can put together that will not cut his brother deeper than the wound he has already opened himself. "I'm sorry," he says instead. "Truly I am. If I had known --"

"What?" Loki turns to him. Every line shows on his face, and his eyelids droop in exhaustion. "What could you have done? You were a child, same as me, and Odin's crimes, such as they are," he gestures dismissively, "he will never pay for them." He draws himself back and slides from Thor's lap.

Thor doesn't know where he stands again, doesn't know where to begin. Gone is the certainty they had only just discovered as Loki crosses the room again and finishes dressing himself by hand. Thor watches him. "It isn't fair," Thor says softly.

Loki scoffs. "I do not tell you this for your pity," he sneers.

Thor shakes his head. "It is not pity, brother." He looks at his brother and silently wills him to look back. "Only that I grieve for you."

Loki sighs. He glances at Thor from over his shoulder. "You're a soft-headed fool," he says more quietly, "but I thank you." He looks down at his gloveletted hands. He is silent for a long while. "I want you, but," he says finally, then stops, and he laughs bleakly. "My god, I wish that I could have come by you honestly." He picks at his own knuckle, twisting the edge of his nail around the white joint.

"I wish that I could have met you in your father's court, or on some matter of diplomacy. I wish I could have glanced you from across a battlefield and felt my breath be taken. Your great and noble heart could have been the greatest prize I ever won, and I could have--" A line of blood splits across his finger and he stops. "We could have had each other honestly."

Thor shakes his head as he watched his brother suck the blood out from his small wound. "You would have hated me," he says hollowly. "I would have been insufferable." Loki's face twists and he scoffs. Thor stands, but goes no further. "I am only am the man I am today because of my brother." Loki looks at him, his eyes red. "I am yours, Loki," he offers quietly, spreading his hands, "as surely as if you had made me.

Loki smiles. "My very own god of thunder." He is fond beneath his bitterness. He sniffs and wipes surreptitiously at his cheeks. "For all that is worth when he cannot be anyone else's."

Thor grimaces. His hands land back at his sides, "I told you," he says. "I don't care a fig for Odin's plans and I still don't. I know my own mind. I told you that I've wanted you forever, since the cradle. Not even you can make me give that up." He knows this now, what a blind man could have seen. When he was frightened, when he was uncertain, when he was in pain, it was never Odin he went to, or Frigga, once he was out of skirts. He went to his brother. He was valiant for his father; he was gentle for his mother, but it was his brother's scorn that taught him to be kind, and, in the end it was his brother's death that taught him what it meant to be king.

If Thor could bring himself to touch him, he could make him know all of this, but Thor has taken from his brother enough to last ten lifetimes. So he tells him instead, "I am yours because without you I would have never been myself. That is fate, as I understand it." Even from across the room, he sees Loki's pale features warring again against his own unkindnesses. Thor finishes as plainly as he can, "One way or another, my life would not have been my life if it did not lead me to you."

Loki takes a step toward him unthinkingly. "I know. I am the same," he says hoarsely, but then he laughs. With the air of telling a good joke, he says, "So you see then, brother, I do belong to you after all. I never had a choice. We never had a choice. But I --" he looks at Thor with an expression full of entreaty. "I have been a slave to his devices my entire life. I cannot even conceive what shape my life might have been without his hand in it, and even now that he is dead, still he has a hold over me."

"I know," Thor says. He reaches out his hand and Loki takes it almost gratefully. He puts his arms around Thor's shoulders and so that Thor is permitted to fold himself around him, to put his cheek into his hair and breathe as if he could stain his lungs with him and keep him next to his heart forever. Loki's mind floods back into his and Thor wills him to quiet where he will be quieted, tries to soothe him where he will not. He murmurs, "It's not right, beloved. It's not fair."

Loki huffs, "Beloved."

"Aye, if that is not too forward."

His brother pauses. "It is proper," he concedes, but Thor feels a floret of pleasure bloom across his heart.

Thor laughs quietly. "Then, beloved, go. You owe me nothing, and I do not bind you. It was shameful of me to have tried." Loki pulls away and looks at him, confused, but Thor only kisses the angle of his temple and says, "I cannot right the wrongs that have been done, but I will do no more."

He steps back away from Loki and takes his hand in one of his. From the other, he produces the silver vessel. Its light pulses gold and warm in his palm.

"My brother," he says solemnly, "your lot is my lot, your hurts are my hurts, and if your soul belongs to you alone no longer, then neither does mine."

Loki clenches Thor's hand and shakes it insistently. "Brother, you don't know what it is you're offering."

Thor gazes at him soberly. "You said it yourself, what good is it doing anyone buried beneath that tree. You said they wanted a home."

"Yes but," Loki shakes his head, "you will never get it back. They will go evenly between us and, Thor, someone with greater skill than I might still be able to undo this, but if we do this, that hope is lost."

"What is it that you want?"

Loki's eyes search his face wildly. "I--" he stammers. "It's you, isn't it?" He looks bewildered and awed. "You know that. It's always going to be you."

Thor offers up his hand again. "Take me with you, then," he says, "whatever you can carry. Whatever you can fit inside your pocket." Loki laughs. His eyes are wet again but perfectly clear. Thor leans their heads together. "I can imagine you walking the skies and slipping between the stars. I can imagine the world’s only you can discover -- green worlds brimming with life. Crystalline worlds that the suns never shine. And maybe one day," he says, hushed, "when you've walked your fill, you will return, and I will welcome you into my hall and then, if you would like to stay, you can stay."

His brother breathes out quick and Thor can feel the tendrils of his breath caressing his face. "You have beautiful dreams," he whispers. "I used to wish I could live inside your dreams."

"I have never heard of a Jotun wanderer. I should like to think that my brother could be the first."

Loki nods but he says, "Wouldn't I be lonely, though? Walking alone." A beat. "I have never heard of an Aesir wanderer either."

Thor hums. "No, I suppose the Aesir are a warrior people. There isn't much wandering to be had save the travel of fighting."

"Would you come with me, if I asked you to?" Loki lays his hand carefully over Thor's chest, over his heart. "Would you walk the stars with me together?"

"Ah," Thor says, even as he feels Loki spinning tales inside his mind, great adventures across the stars, grand discoveries, quiet moments when the two of them can be alone. He pushes them gently aside. "But Asgard must have her king, but more than that, her chief protector. I cannot leave her as she is, vulnerable and unguarded."

"Brother, please," Loki says, pulling back and looking Thor fiercely in the eye. "You have spent your entire life in service of Asgard. I know," he says hastily before Thor can interject, "that that is what a king is, but even now that you are king, will you not have one thing for yourself? One dream?" he asks, his smooth voice making it sound so reasonable. "One thing that can be unquestionably and only yours? You are more than what you can do for others. You are so much more than a strong back that carries. My love, please," he says as he presses his lips to the palm of Thor's hand. "You have never had a choice either."

"No," Thor accedes, touching his brother's stained cheek, "but I would see these people safe from harm"

"And if they were safe, and then?" Loki asks breathlessly. "When there are no more wars to be waged or conquests to be had? When you have done your duty to these people, what then?"

"Then." Thor frowns outwardly, but he knows. In his heart, he knows. Kingship is sacrifice; it is a duty greater than his duty to himself. These people have nothing and want for everything, except for a king. How could he take that from them as well?

But I don't see why you can't just play along, says his brother's voice, so Thor lets himself smile slowly. "Well, I don't know. Where would you want to go first?"

Loki's face breaks then, as a storm that ends, as a new day that dawns, his smile warmer and brighter than all the sunlit summers Thor has ever known. He leans into the line of Thor's body. One hand fits into Thor's as their bound souls take up, at last, their rightful thrones. Thor feels hot and the cold and then nothing new in particular. Perhaps that is what it feels like to be whole, or perhaps it is simply only something that Thor has already found.

Loki's other hand curls gently over Thor's thundering throat. He says, "Then I can be happy--"

A moment later, his world explodes.

#thorki #thor #loki #thor/loki #accessibility for people who can't get on ao3 for whatever reason #soulbond but make it cursed #this is supposed to be post Ragnarok and literally minutes before infinity war #the idea is we take all the bad characterisations in IW and endgame and we give them context and weight so that they are sad instead of suc #be ready to see a lot of this shit bc i have a lot of notes to post about this fic #internal thor tag #internal thorki fic tag

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kittyprincessofcats · 6 years ago

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MCU movies ranked by how well-written Loki was

Well, one person did tell me to post them, so here we go. This list ranks the 6 MCU movies Loki appeared in - solely based on how well-written he was. This list disregards how good/bad I thought the movie was otherwise, and also doesn’t factor in how well the story treats the character - it’s based just on how much I agree or disagree with Loki’s characterisation. (In other words if he gets brutally murdered or treated like shit by his family, that doesn’t necessarily mean he himself was ooc.) Also, this is of course just my opinion and very much up for debate :)

This ended up getting kinda long, sorry - I just really like talking about Loki :D

ALSO THIS LIST CONTAINS ENDGAME SPOILERS

6th Place - Thor: Ragnarok

Yeah... Sorry, I know people love this movie, but it really deserves last place on this list. Now, to be fair, I didn’t completely hate how Loki was written here, there definitely were some nice moments (”I’m here”), but overall I felt like the movie played Loki’s trauma for laughs to much, made him the butt of a joke too often and didn’t make him stand up for himself like he did in his previous movies - which is one of the things I liked most about him. I also didn’t like that the movie tried to retcon him into someone who’s been hurting Thor his whole life, or that they made his “redemption” involve forgiving Odin. And even though this movie is praised for its “anti-colonialism” message, it really fails to address that Loki was one of the biggest victims of Asgard’s colonialism and that Odin never really changed his ways after banishing Hela.

And beyond that, I just felt like there was something slightly “off” about how Loki was written here. It was his first time back on the big screen in 5 years, and somehow it just didn’t feel like the same character anymore. Ragnarok was the only movie Loki was in where I went out of the cinema and didn’t feel the need to read tons of fanfic about him. At first I thought it was just because I’d moved on in those 5 years and wasn’t as invested in his character anymore - but then Infinity War happened and (despite killing him off) absolutely nailed Loki’s characterisation and brought my love for him back full force. And that’s when I realized I hadn’t moved on - Ragnarok just hadn’t gotten Loki right.

5th Place - The Avengers

I initially wanted to place this higher, mainly because it’s such an iconic movie (that I really like) and because so many of Loki’s most iconic and well-known lines are from this one. Tom absolutely plays the sassy, charming but vulnerable trickster to perfection here. Then why is is to so low on my list? First of all, because I feel like there was a giant personality shift for Loki between this movie and the first Thor. Loki has previously stated that he never wanted the throne (of Asgard) and now he suddenly tries to conquer earth and we’re not really meant to question it.

Now before you all say it - Yes, I’m aware that Loki was tortured by Thanos between this movie and the last one. And while the movie doesn’t explicitly tell us that, I think between him looking like hell and limping in his first scene and his scene with The Other (”He will make you long for something as sweet as pain”), the implications were clear enough. Plus, there’s the whole revelation that the mind stone influenced his thinking. So yes, I think his personality shift is understandable - BUT I wish the movie itself had made that clearer instead of leaving it to fans to connect the dots and understand why Loki is acting so different now.

And lastly, I don’t like his “mewling q**m” line to Natasha. I think it’s incredibly misogynistic on the writers’ part (ahem... Joss Whedon again), and it’s also incredibly ooc for Loki, who subverts gender roles, is genderfluid himself if we go by the comics, and has always been shown to respect women, especially his mother. So I don’t feel like using gendered insults is something he would do.

4th place - Avengers: Infinity War

Yes, the scene was horrible. Yes, it broke my heart and made me angry at the Russos. No, I don’t have the desire to rewatch it. BUT the one thing I do have to give this movie credit for is absolutely getting Loki’s character right. This was the movie that reawakened my love for Loki after Ragnarok failed to do so. Tom’s acting throughout this scene is brilliant and heart-wrenching and the dialogue features some of my favourite Loki lines. I mean: ”For one thing, I’m not Asgardian - and for another, we have a Hulk.” “The sun will shine on us again.” “You will never be a god.” Loki finally acknowledging himself as “not Asgardian” and “the rightful king of Jotunheim”? Loki repeating “We have a Hulk” - symbolizing that he’s on the same side as the Avengers now? Loki looking his biggest fear in the eye and choosing to sacrifice himself for his brother? GOOD SHIT. That’s some good shit right there!

Even Loki attacking Thanos with a butter knife isn’t necessarily ooc - He didn’t do it because he thought it would work, he was simply out of ideas and decided to distract Thanos and save Thor. He knew he would die. And if you tell me that wasn’t absolutely heroic then I don’t know what is. Though I do agree that the writers (not just of this movie, but of all of them) seem to have forgotten all the powers Loki is supposed to have and I’m also annyoed that they just make him stab people instead. And also, I don’t like that Loki calls himself “Odinson” in this scene. Forgiving Odin shouldn’t be a part of his redemption, bla bla, we’ve been over this. I like to headcanon that that part was more meant for Thor than Odin.

3rd Place - Avengers: Endgame

I know what you’re thinking - Does Loki even have enough screentime in Endgame for it to be on this list? And yeah, good point. It’s hard to be completely ooc when you basically have two minutes of screentime and I did consider leaving it off the list for precisely that reason. But, I mean COME ON. I just had to give a shout-out to how absolutely iconic those two minutes were. Imitating Cap? Sarcastically waving at the Hulk from the elevator? Dramatically rolling his eyes when Thor mentions Odin? Grabbing the tesseract at the first chance and just noping out of that horrible mess of a movie? ICONIC. Two minutes of screentime and he somehow stole the show. When could your fave ever?

2nd Place - Thor 1

This is the movie that made me fall in love with Loki in the first place, so obviously it had to be high on this list. The way he was written (and acted) here was absolutely beautiful, his story is heartwrenching in all the right ways, he makes all the wrong choices but as a viewer you understand why he makes them. He’s presented to us as this outcast who doesn’t quite fit in, who’s always in the shadow of his brother, kind of gets bullied by his brother’s friends, yearns for his father’s love - and who one day has to deal with the realisation that his life was a lie and that his father resents him for something beyond his control. The confrontation between him and Odin in the Vaults is still the best Marvel-scene ever, hands down.

Fun fact: I literally first watched this movie because I wanted to know “who that Loki-guy is and why people love him so much”. I finished watching the movie and was like “Ah. I get it now.”

My only complaint would be that they deleted all the scenes that explained Loki’s motives and made him more sympathetic. To be honest, I sometimes forget that they’re “deleted scenes” because I’ve watched them so often that I just consider them canon.

1st Place - Thor: The Dark World

Honestly, it was close between this one and Thor 1. I love them both, but while I think the first one is a better movie overall, Loki’s portrayal in the second one is probably my favourite. He starts the movie already disillusioned with his family and spends it unafraid of calling them out on their mistreatment of him. This is the movie where Loki won’t be silenced about the injustices he’s suffered, and I love that about him. I also love how he just replies to threats with sarcasm now (”You’ll kill me? Evidently, there will be a line.”).

I also like that his movie gave more depth to his relationship with Frigga, and also showed Loki being heroic: Helping Thor, never betraying him, protecting Jane, sacrificing himself for Thor. In fact, I stick by what I said before: Loki wasn’t a villain in this movie. There isn’t a single evil thing that he did in this film. NOT ONE.

I also love how this movie makes Odin’s hypocrisy more evident than ever (Telling Loki they’re not gods and that he shouldn’t think himself above Midgardians, but telling Thor he shouldn’t date Jane because Midgardians are “goats”... You get the idea). I also like the contrasts painted between Odin and Loki and how they think about Thor’s relationship with a mortal - Odin tells him he shouldn’t date Jane because she’s “beneath” him, Loki tells him he shouldn’t date Jane because she’ll die one day and that’ll break his heart. And that’s just one of the many contrasts between them in this movie.

And THAT ENDING! Thor getting his only bit of good parenting ever and it was actually Loki - Loki still being alive - Loki sitting on that throne. HELL YES.

(I seriously don’t get how people thought that ending meant Loki was evil? Hello?? He just freed Asgard from a totalitarian dictator? Last time I checked that was a good thing? Have some people not gotten the memo that Odin’s evil? This movie in particular was very clear about that.)

My other rankings: Thor | Steve Rogers | Natasha Romanoff

#Loki #MCU #Loki meta #Thor movies #The Avengers #Thor the Dark World #Thor Ragnarok #Avengers Infinity War #Avengers Endgame #Endgame spoilers #long post

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alkja · 6 years ago

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Well, here we come: Endgame review (spoilers galore)

Endgame is essentially two different movies for me: the one up until the last three minutes and the one that includes those last three minutes.

The first is a decent movie – riddled with stupid crap, plot holes and the occasional nonsense, but on the whole acceptable.

The second is a waterfall of crap that makes me seethe in anger.

If you liked that ending, I seriously discourage you from keeping on reading. Otherwise, let us discuss the good, the bad, the wtf and the “How dare you?”

THE “DID YOU EVEN TRY THINKING ABOUT THIS” DIVISION

Let’s start with the inevitable: time shenanigans equal inevitable fuckery. That is known.

The most egregious example being: Nebula kills her younger self and is apparently fine and dandy. What the shit? I don’t care if you killed her in 2023 (or whenever Endgame happens, I’m going with Infinity War happening in 2018 as released), if Nebula 2014 dies there is no Nebula 2015 and so on to eventually become Nebula 2023. Ergo, she should absolutely have died. Same with Thanos & Co. No matter where you do it, if you kill a past version of someone, there is no one to do the things they would have done in the future. Thanos 2014 dies, so there cannot be a Thanos from after that to do the Snap.

Which is not bad, go ahead and kill past versions of evil shits, but doing so changes the timeline. Period. Rodhey even proposed that and they had a long nerd out about why that would not be possible... and then they went and did that and pretended it didn’t count. That is so goddamn stupid.

Same with all the time travel.

I don’t care if you go and put the Infinity Stones back, because those stupid McGuffins are not the only thing that can mess the timeline. First of all, there is no one to use them anyway since Thanos died before he did the Snap, but we’re supposed to ignore that.

More to the point, in order to put the timeline to right, you have to put the Stones back after the future Avengers have stolen them. Fine, that puts them back in the timeline. However, that doesn’t erase the actions your slightly-past selves have taken trying to grab them. Which means, for example, that Loki fucking escaped with the Tesseract after Avengers 1, which is a MAJOR change.

Or, it should be. But apparently we’re supposed to ignore that because in the Dark World time Loki is in his cell, and wow. NO. If he escapes in Avengers 1 (with the Tesseract to boot), that leads to massive changes in Dark World and Ragnarok. For one thing, without the Tesseract, the Bifrost cannot be repaired. More essential to those plots, Loki should plainly not be there.

Putting the sceptre back also doesn’t erase the fact that Captain America said “Heil Hydra” to a Hydra agent (oh oh oh, such canny comic references!), who apparently never mentioned it again to anyone ever? Not even to his goddamn boss? So, did Sitwell legitimately think Steve was Hydra up until Winter Soldier? And yet come Winter Soldier he never thought to ask Steve “Wait, even if you’re not actually Hydra, you clearly knew about us for years, so why are you now so outraged like this is brand new information for you? Why did it take you this long to move against us and why are you doing it without much in the way of planning or allies? The hell did you do these past years?”

Hell, why did Sitwell – a prominent Hydra agent in SHIELD who would not raise any flags doing so – never approach Steve, Hydra agent to Hydra agent? No, he discovers that Captain America is apparently Hydra and just rolls with it. No “What the hell, sir?” call to Pierce, no secret handshake to Steve. For years. I can handwave him not saying anything to Rumlow and the rest of Strike, because if Steve is Hydra maintaining his deep cover with everyone is more important than anything (even if they were right there when he gave him the scepter, so what did he say to them?), but not mentioning it to Pierce? Cannot buy that. And not having any mention of that in Winter Soldier is pretty damn unbelievable.

The timeline was also changed by having future!Steve fight past!Steve. And no, it doesn’t matter that past!Steve thought it was Loki. It was still a change.

Not to mention, Loki could not have had a Peggy compass or known shit about Bucky, so it stands to reason it’s not Loki. So, what gives? What did past!Steve think it happened? Hell, come Winter Soldier what did he think about that time some guy who looked and fought like himself told him that Bucky was alive and lo and behold, here comes Buckaroo?

In essence, the Avengers fucked the timeline without lube but we’re supposed to pretend they didn’t.

To me, that is shit.

Mess with time all you like, but acknowledge you’re doing so. Either your plan goes off without a hitch (as if!), or the moment where everything goes inevitably to hell and there are changes - and here we are talking about major changes - you say fuck it, pull out all the stops and change away.

[Ok, I admit it, by that I mostly mean: pull out all the stops, take 5 minutes to explain to your past self you come from the future and tell him to get his ass in gear because Hydra is literally running the government and SHIELD and most importantly Bucky has been frozen, tortured and brainwashed for about 70 years, so get to it, save Bucky Bear save the world, and smash Nazis like the fucking Hulk. May the fic gods, as ever, be kinder to me than the canon ones.]

This “pretend nothing has changed even while we change important stuff that should logically have repercussions” approach only works if you think your audience has the reasoning capabilities of concussed goldfishes. Tony’s last bout of genius solving time travel on the fly deserved better than this.

(Also, good luck trying to sell me on any future conflict stakes when our heroes now have the capabilities of fucking going back in time and change things, even if you don’t want to admit it.)

In the “this is so dumb and nonsensical and wow look at those strings” camp, we also have the two Nebulas being connected. That is so stupid and clearly only there for the sake of plot you can literally see the writers going “Uhm... how can we make it so past!Thanos knows what the heroes are doing? What if we make it so past!Nebula gets the memories of future!Nebula from a galaxy away? How? Why? Because!”

Riveting.

About as riveting as the Thor stuff. Here you can see the writers desperately wracking their brain wondering “But how are we gonna have dumb jokes in a serious movies? Where will we go for cheap, juvenile humor? I know! Let’s make Thor a drunk idiot with a beer belly! Oh oh oh, what could be more funny than a parade of fat jokes, we’re comedic geniuses!”

Yawn. Also, offensive much? But really, everything about Thor spits in the face of his three movies long character arc (which was all about responsibility): dudes, do you even know the characters you’re writing about?

Speaking of desperation: no Steve and Bucky reunion post UnSnapping? Seriously? We have Tony and Peter - who have known each other for 5 minutes - tearfully embrace but no scene between two characters who have known each other all their lives and have been through massive shit in those lives? Marvel execs, we know that every time Steve and Bucky shared a scene The Dreadful Spectre of The GAY appeared and made your blood pressure rise but this is ridiculous.

Which is also why you get no cookie for The First Gay Character in the franchise: an unnamed character in a single blink-and-you’ll-miss-it scene, truly stellar representation. What made you believe this was a smart move?

That said, there are some good things in this movie.

THE “I DIDN’T NECESSARILY WANT THIS BUT I CAN ACCEPT YOU DID IT. ALSO, OUCH: MY HEART” DIVISION

First of all, Tony Stark.

Never thought I’d say that, because I’m the furthest thing from a Tony fan and spent all of Ultron and Civil War wanting to punch him. And Infinity War being indifferent to him.

But goddamn if I didn’t feel how goddamn much he adored Pepper and their daughter. Goddamn if I didn’t tear up at his heroic sacrifice, going out with the line that started it all (“I am Iron Man”- my heart), goddamn if I didn’t tear up at his goodbye with Pepper and then at his funeral.

For all his many, many faults – which I’m not gonna forget for a second – Tony went out exactly as he should be: a goddamn hero. With a heart big enough, strong enough to give himself up for everyone else even at the moment where he had everything he ever wished to have.

My hat’s off to him.

Never thought I’d ever say this, but I will miss him.

Other MVPs of Endgame: Clint Motherfucking Barton and Natasha “Love is NOT for Children” Romanoff. I know: Natasha, sure, but who would ever have guessed that about Clint? Prior to Endgame, he was just sort of there, not helped by Ultron and his sudden family in a farm.

Endgame managed to make me care about the family I loathed. How? I don’t know, but I am totally down for a Clint + Kate Bishop + Lila show, where everyone is a badass archer and they are all codenamed Hawkeye just because! I am also totally down for Clint’s badass reinvention (after, I’m guessing, mainlining all 7 seasons of Arrow), no matter how heartbreaking the reason or questionable the style choices.

And that Clintasha scene was pretty much worth the whole movie to me.

Because, first of all, that’s how you solve a problem like the Soul Stone: a willing sacrifice. (Which, btw, makes even more disgusting the fact that we are supposed to see this as equally worthy to Thanos murdering his daughter).

Second, because I am a total sucker for characters fighting about who gets to sacrifice themselves. Clint and Natasha beating the crap out of each other just like in Avengers 1 (just one of many delightful callbacks that pepper the movie), this time because they love each other too much to let the other be the one to die is everything.

Third, because it’s just a really good scene, based on one of the better relationships in the MCU. Even those not shipping Clintasha have no doubt that those two are extremely important to one another, and Renner and Johannson acted the hell out of it - just as they did every scene together, from their reunion post-yakuza slaughter, to the giddiness of flying a spaceship. I teared up like a baby at Nat’s sacrifice and I was right there with Clint hoping for a loophole that made it so we could get Nat back and was heartbroken anew when that did not come to pass.

But, again, the Black Widow went out just like she should have: a true hero, loving, strong and unafraid. The red in her ledger was wiped out once and for all.

The “Feels” subdivision

Scott Lang was an integral part of the solution. I mean, never before have we heard about time passing differently in the quantum realm – and in fact Janet Van Dyne aged the 30 years she spent in it, so more plot service crap – but who cares! Still, his desperate checking to see if his daughter was among the Snapped only to find his own name and running like hell to get to Cassie only to be suddenly confronted with a teenager and realizing he missed those 5 years with her and not caring because she was still there was absolutely perfect.

Speaking of families: I have already said it but Tony and Pepper and little Morgan were amazing.

Also, Thor and Frigga! Frigga was an egregious fridging to start with, so it was lovely seeing her again, but especially giving her a wonderful scene with her son that shows her intelligence and strength and exactly why she was Queen of Asgard. Not to mention being the one to restore Thor’s confidence and absolving him of his failures. Sometimes you just really, really need your mom. (Too bad about that stupid salad joke.)

Natasha and Steve. Just... Natasha and Steve being badly messed up by those 5 years post-Snap and yet being so supportive and understanding of each other. Really, after Winter Soldier, this was the best Natasha movie. And rightly so.

In general, the Avengers being not just a team but also friends, fucking finally. Sure, there is the whole “found family-baited” post going around, but memes aside, it is true that we never got to see those people acting like friends and not merely co-workers. Was that so difficult to do before the very last moment?

THE “IN HERE FOR THE HOLY SHIT QUOTIENT” DIVISION

A small but admirable moment for a villain that was otherwise pretty underwhelming no matter how much they tried passing him off as deep: Thanos having the smarts and the metaphorical stones to goddamn destroy the Infinity Stones. Better to accept never using them himself again than run the risk of someone stealing them and undo his work. He may be evil and incapable of properly understanding the concept of proportions (that whole: if you destroy half of the resources along with half of the people using said resources, you are just as screwed as before), but the guy is smart.

Carol was as amazing as she could be in a movie that by design could not be about her kicking Thanos’s ass up and down the whole galaxy but was necessarily the Last Hooray of the Old Guard. Her face seeing Fury among the Snapped, her entrance and towing a fucking spaceship, her pointing out that while the Avengers have been watching (with mixed results) over a single planet she was watching over a lot of them (likely with better results), her second entrance, her goddamn everything. Not as good as her solo movie but what could ever be?

Speaking of ladies, Valkyrie becoming a Literal Queen warms my heart. I have some doubts about Thor just up and leaving what remains of his people, even after everything (read: I don’t buy it, just like I don’t buy anything about Thor in this movie), but considering Heimdall is not around anymore, we can all agree he left them in excellent, badass hands. I want more.

Switching to metaphorical Valkyries... It was a fanservice-y, mostly unearned scene in a series that has historically been pretty low in female friendships or relationships, but goddamn if the optics of all the badass ladies of the MCU banding together weren’t made of FUCKYEAH! Give us a ladies-led movie, Marvel, you fucking cowards: DC is giving us the Birds of Prey (and Harley Quinn), what’s your excuse?

In that vein: Pepper donning an Iron Man armor! Basically everything I ever hoped for, so much so that for a moment I legitimately thought I had imagined it. Now that Tony is gone, let Pepper step up as Rescue or Iron Maiden or whatever, get her to mentor a bright intern named Riri Williams and we’re set to go for maximum awesomeness.

Still, when talking about maximum awesomeness: CAP. WIELDING. MJOLNIR. We Italians don’t have the habit of reacting to movies out loud at the theatre, but you could hear the current of FUCKYEAH!!! coming from all the nerds in the room, and rightly so. Cap fighting with the shield in one hand and Mjolnir in the other was everything every superhero fan could ever have wished for in a movie distilled into the Crowning Moment of Awesome to top all CMOAs. (Too bad this gets incredibly undermined by that ending beacuse I refuse to believe that that guy could be worthy of a fucking shoehorn, much less Mjolnir.)

Thor dual-wielding Mjolnir and Stormbreaker deserves a mention too.

(This as long as we forget Mjolnir being taken away to the future at the start of Dark World makes gaping holes in Ultron e Ragnarok, because past!Thor wouldn’t have it anymore, but whatever LALALALALA what time logic?)

But the moment that threatened to bring down the house in cheers was the sight of all the Unsnapped returning followed by - finally - the call: AVENGERS ASSEMBLE! Every single person visibly restrained themselves from punching the air and shouting along. I think we all regret not doing so, dignity be damned.

So, leaving aside the truck-sized plot holes that are practically a given once you decide to muck around with time travel and the occasional plot-over-character-or-sense stupidity, all in all we have a rather solid movie full of badass moments and with occasionally meaningful emotional beats.

Not my favorite by a long shot, but a mostly fitting end to an insane project no one ever thought could possibly be achieved that ended up sweeping the world and fandom.

Too bad those last five minutes arrive to shit all over that, and incidentally all over a beloved character.

THE “ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME YOU GODDAMNED HACKS” DIVISION

Steve – I must suppose SERIOUSLY concussed during the battle to the point of brain damage beyond the repairing capabilities of the superserum – returns the Infinity Stones to the past and, while he’s at it, decides to abscond in the same past to live his life with Peggy, only returning as an old man to pass the shield to Sam.

Awwwwwwwwww... Steve and Peggy living their life together, so heartwarming...

Yeah, except once you think about it, then you want to use that shield to fucking brain the skrull that must be impersonating Steve Rogers.

Because, in order to buy this story, we have to believe that Steve “I don’t like bullies” Rogers, Steve “If I see a situation pointed south, I can't ignore it” Rogers, Steve “On va voir” Rogers, Steve “I can do this all day” Rogers deliberately chose to spend the rest of his fucking life doing exactly nothing, otherwise the timeline would have been SERIOUSLY rebooted.

A life of inaction, hiding the fact of his existence.

Sure, that totally sounds like the Steve Rogers we have been watching up until this point.

Instead of an ending about moving forward no matter what life throws at you, we got one about happiness being literally going backwards.

Because that’s a totally healthy message.

Hell, you decide to go the retirement route, I don’t even necessarily disagree with it. If, after all the trauma of Infinity War + the five years interlude + the shitstorm of Endgame, Steve decided to lay aside the shield for a while and try to make an actual, functional life for himself I would have been all for it. If nothing else, the guy could make do with a lot of therapy. Most crucially, not being Captain America would not mean quitting the fight: he could do just as much good as an artist, a politician, an opinion leader, an activist or what have you. All that is not gonna be possible in the past, because to mantain the timeline he cannot become anyone relevant in any way. Especially since he knows Hydra is still around and attracting notice would mean risking some of that attention coming from them. So no, absconding to the past means by necessity a life not fighting in any way, not doing anything of any particular importance whatsoever.

This is completely antithetical to everything that Steve Rogers, as he was shown up until now, stands for.

And we have yet to touch the morality of it all, or the lack thereof.

Lest I get accused of being a bitter Stucky shipper whose slash goggles cannot make her appreciate a Steggy ending, let me point out that I ship Steggy as much as Stucky and if anything I am a bitter Peggy Carter fangirl: Our Kick-Ass Lady of the No Holds Barred Beatdown unquestionably deserves better than this crap.

By which, I’m not even talking about how this ending shits all over the closure we got before and the entirety of the Agent Carter run, which both show that while Peggy unquestionably loved Steve, she mourned him for a while and then, as healthy people do, moved on to have a perfectly fulfilling life with a rewarding job and eventually a new love and family. I’m not even talking about how this takes her back the “Steve Rogers’ Love Interest” route, Betty Carver-style, instead of letting her be her own woman with her own story that may have started alongside Steve Rogers but then developed on her own terms. I’m not talking about how she was rewinded from a character in her own right to a “hero’s” prize.

I’m talking about how this supposed happy ending to slow dancing and snuggling is based on either Peggy being apparently also brain damaged to the point that, upon hearing that the organization she’s busting her ass to run is a Nazi cesspool, just rolls with it - which, I think we can all agree, is definitely not something our Agent Carter would ever in a million years do - or Steve merrily electing to spend something like 50 years lying like a motherfucker to the supposed love of his life about how the organization she’s busting her ass to run is a Nazi cesspool. True love, everyone!

Fuck you: Peggy Carter fucking deserved better than this.

This also leaving aside the fact that, in this happy ending, Steve knows that while he’s squirreled away in the woods dancing and doing decoupage, his supposed best friend is getting tortured to the point of complete dehumanization. But whatever, he’ll eventually be fine, no use doing anything about it. Oh, JFK got murdered? Nice shot, Buck! Oh, there goes Howard, a smooth operation, buddy: hope the brain-frying won’t be too bad, just hang on until 2014.

End of the line my goddamn ass.

Oh, and since no-one’s memories are rewritten, Bucky also conceivably knows all this. He knows that his supposed best friend voluntarily spent his life doing squat to save him.

Fuck you: Bucky Barnes fucking deserved better than this.

SO, TO RECAP: Steve Rogers is a selfish ass who chose a life of inaction, Peggy Carter is either his accomplice or a dupe and Bucky Barnes lost his best friend all over again. Coherent characterization got sacrificed for a theoretical feel-good moment that doesn’t stand up to the most cursory examination before being revealed as sheer horrifying fuckery.

Sure, Sam gets to be the new Captain America (which, don’t get me wrong: he totally deserves it and at this point he’s more worthy of it than the original), but that’s literally the only good thing in a mountain of shit dumped over characters that deserved much better.

I get that Evans wanted out, but there are ways to do it and then there are ways. Tony went out like a goddamn hero. So did Natasha.

Steve went out quitting - aka the one and only thing Steve Rogers would never ever do - and in addition what can only be called a bastard who shrugged off his best friend’s decades-long torture and quite likely spent his life lying to the woman he loves.

Fuck you: Steve Rogers fucking deserved better than this.

If there could be a worse impression to leave bowing out than this one, I’m honestly unable to imagine it (Well, beside making Steve Hydra for real: but considering that he spent his live blithely pretending they were not still around murdering, torturing and so on, that makes him a collaborationist at best and WOW, at this point it’s kinda splitting hairs, isn’t it?).

Coming into Endgame, I knew this was gonna be Cap’s last waltz and after spending years as a Steve Rogers fan I was dreading watching him die. Now, I wish he could have gone out with the heroism and dignity of Tony or Natasha instead of... whatever this was. I could have mourned him while celebrating him, instead of mourning what he used to be while despising what he was made to become.

This Steve Rogers fan, who spent years loving him while being annoyed and occasionally enraged by Tony Stark, left the theatre feeling deeply moved by Tony and quite honestly hating the guts of whatever was left of Steve. If someone told me this would happen I wouldn’t have believed them and yet here we are.

Personally, in order to actually enjoy the movie and especially to be able to retain any fondness whatsoever for one of my most beloved characters, those last five minutes are gonna join the entirety of Age of Ultron in the realm of “I recognise Marvel Studios have made a decision, but given that it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it”.

As far as I’m concerned, Endgame ended with Tony Stark’s funeral. A fitting tribute to the fallen hero who started it all, to the road that took us to this moment and all those characters who travelled it with us.

To the end of an era and hope for the next one.

#MCU #avengers endgame #not my steve rogers #endgame spoilers #steve rogers #tony stark #natasha romanoff #clint barton #review #rant #endgame wtf #epic fail

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fromdirectorlanawachowski · 6 years ago

Text

honest and unmerciful endgame thoughts

a sequel to this post

this is deadass one of the worst movies i’ve ever seen.

a few brief thoughts before i get into the more or less play by play.

- making jokes about how time travel in movies isn’t really how time travel works doesn’t work if you’re a fucking movie dude

- fat thor was a fucking disgrace

- professor hulk has to have been 80% ad-libbed because there’s no way someone actually wrote that garbage dialogue

- using a past thanos was a mistake because we don’t actually give a shit about him

OKAY LETS GO

actually fuck it i was gonna do plot point by plot point but i’m just so exhausted i don’t have the strength to do it. i’m gonna go in broad strokes and if you want me to elaborate on WHY something was bad feel free to yell at me in the DMs

okay lets go

right away the whole thing with clint fucking turning on the spot as his family disappears was goofy as all hell. i know exactly what they were going for but having him literally turn on the spot instead of go into the house or go into the shed just draws attention to the absolute hilarity of how fast they vanished compared to others.

why the fuck was tony skin and bones when he got back to earth. i know he was in space for three weeks but they clearly show him eating during the montage of him and nebula doing.... things?

also everyone just kind of trusts nebula? okay? i’d be wary of purple aliens in light of what just happens but inclusivity i guess

also you mean to tell me that in three weeks they scanned the entire universe for gamma radiation? also enough gamma radiation that would show up on a scan from light years away but not fry everyone nearby when thanos snapped?

as soon as they killed thanos i knew the climax of this movie was gonna suck ass.

the writers have no idea how fast human hair grows if five years later natasha still has that godawful blonde dye on her tips

a fucking rat got scott lang out of the quantum realm. i don’t have any commentary for this because this scene speaks for itself. a rat.

moreover how did they even get the van down from the rooftop it was on at the end of ant man 2

fat thor. i don’t have any commentary about this either. the whole thing reeks of the russos looking at taika and going “you wanna be a funny man? you want thor to be fucking funny? you think he’s hilarious? fuck you”

oh i guess i did have commentary on that after all

i’m glossing right over the gay scene because again, taika fought tooth and nail to get bisexual valkyrie and now the russo shitters get to say they had the first canon lgbt character and it’s a couple of throwaway lines that can be redubbed for china. seriously. i don’t think there’s ever a scene where he says “he” or “him” while his lips are on screen.

apparently i am doing this relatively plot point by plot point but i digress

if i was keeping points like cinemasins (ew) i’d take a few off for morgan stark. i’m an bitch but not that much of one.

oh yeah pepper potts’ first of, i believe, four lines in this movie is “yeah i’m reading about compost”. i have no commentary for this either. it speaks for itself.

tony hits upon time travel in a day

i’m so glad we couldn’t get any real character development for anyone but we had time for the four minute “ant man becomes various aged forms of himself and then makes a peeing your pants joke in 2019″ scene.

“that’s how time travel works in movies this is real life” that’s great except that joke falls flat cause you’re a fuckin movie bro

i’m skipping over the entirety of the battle of new york thing because that was just fucking.... *benny hill music*

oh no i’m addressing the ancient one thing. love to have characters retconned into previous movies so they can try and explain the time travel in a way that actually makes it more confusing and also isn’t the way the movie follows

steve leering at peggy through the blinds was creepy, i’m sorry. actually the way he was suddenly obsessed with her this whole movie was really creepy.

howard potts

tony meeting his dad was so awkward and uncomfortable and they really meant for it to be heartwarming but i’m sorry it was fucking hilarious and i was howling with laughter in the theater

likewise thor with frigga. a really nice, emotional moment where thor gets closure with his mom and she overtly says she knows she’s going to die soon but she loves him and she’s so proud of him....

..... and then tops it off with a fat joke. the russos can’t let any kind of emotion hang without making a joke.

when they killed natasha a guy three rows down said “if they were killing her here why the fuck did they greenlight her movie then”

why did thanos get a scene confronting the cost of the stone but clint just wakes up in a puddle? are you gonna tell me thanos cared more about gamora than clint did about natasha? ok.

okay i’ll admit seeing quill dancing on morag without the background music was funny as fuck. rhodey explaining the punchline was not funny as fuck though

three cheers for nebula inexplicably having new abilities

as soon as they brought in past thanos i knew the climax of this movie was gonna suck a big ass

hulk snaps the iron infinity gauntlet because he’s the only one that can withstand the gamma radiation that it allegedly emits and has been mentioned only once before in this movie

the fact that it works is demonstrated by not anyone coming back, but ant man looking out the window at some birds. yeah. gee.

okay i have a question here that may take a little bit to explain.

earlier in the movie it’s explicitly stated they only have enough pym particles for one round trip each. that’s why steve and tony had to go back to 197X to get the tesseract and more particles.

so.

past-nebula takes current-nebula’s place and uses her particles to travel back to the present, leaving current-nebula with no particles

so how did past-thanos bring his ship to the present with no pym particles

anyway past-gamora and current-nebula kill past-nebula to get the iron infinity gauntlet back

the final battle was whatever. i couldn’t for the life of me tell you what happened or where anyone was in relation to anyone else because it was cut so poorly

everyone comes back. remember at the end of my infinity war thoughts when i said the end had no stakes because obviously everyone snapped came back and you all got mad at me? everyone comes back.

the ladies all running the gauntlet would be cool if it wasn’t encompassed by shots of all the men running the gauntlet, drawing attention to the fact there’s literally only like seven ladies and one of them isn’t even a hero

joss whedon was the cinematographer the day they shot wanda fighting thanos, judging from all the gratuitous shots down her shirt. i know elizabeth olsen has nice boobs. believe me, i do. i’m envious. but for the love of christ stop being creepy voyeurs about it

also “you took everything from me” “i don’t even know who you are???” that was a great setup for her to use her mind powers and make thanos experience some suffering but they just didn’t do that so those lines are hilarious

tony gets the stones and snaps, killing thanos and all his army. thanos fades away into dust while a woman vocalizes in the background in a manner that’s less satisfying than when voldemort did the exact same thing in deathly hallows part 2

tony dies because i guess?

at the funeral everyone is there and there’s shots lingering on everyone including this weird kid who looks like he’d microwave a gerbil? i had to google him and it’s supposed to be the kid from iron man 3. i feel like seven years later you should probably put in a line like “thanks for coming <whatever that kid’s name was>

okay we’ve reached the part i have the absolute most beef with.

steve’s ending

from the start of this movie he’s been inexplicably obsessed with peggy. the ending is telegraphed from a mile away and i was still shocked and stunned that they actually did this.

so steve just gives up everything, all his friends and family, to go back in time to be with a woman he knew for max a year, in the heat of war, where emotions run high and they may very well have latched onto each other in case they died.

steve rogers, the man who wielded mjolnir, the man who broke his friend’s mental conditioning just be refusing to fight him, just sits back through the 50s and 60s and 70s and 80s and 90s. the cuban missile crisis, the LA riots, the assassination of JFK, the death of howard and maria stark, the infiltration of shield, the berlin wall, 9/11, the war on terror, and he just.... did nothing?

what the fuck was that

sam is captain america now though so i’m down with that

but i’m still so angry

this is beyond character assassination for steve. it’s... outright brutal murder and mutilation. anywhere i can, i give endgame a half star review FOR THIS ALONE. setting aside fat thor and how they treat Ragnarok, the fact they think steve rogers would, after everything he’s done and learned, go back into the past where there was still a chance he could help his friends in his own way, and do NOTHING, is the most infuriating thing about this barely-polished turd of a movie.

IN CONCLUSION i said infinity war was the worst movie marvel had ever put out and marvel went “haha we can do you one better”

endgame is just three hours of setpiece, gag, setpiece, gag, setpiece, gag, occasionally punctuated with emotional moments that aren’t allowed to hang long enough for the emotion to sink in before a joke is made, usually at thor’s expense.

#avengers #endgame #endgame spoilers #endgame critical #endgame critique #infinity war critical #avengers endgame

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samcarpnter · 6 years ago

Note

/post/184221536620/i-hate-the-russo-brothers-i-hate-the-russo why do u hate the russo bros ??

i posted that after seeing the endgame spoilers that came out after the world premiere last week, and while i regret and am apologizing for saying bad things about the movie before seeing it, i stand by this post because i really have not liked them post catws. the short answer to this question is that it really seems like they don’t care about what happened with their characters in the movies preceding theirs and ruin a lot of the really good characterization other directors had. plus they have very much contributed to the poor treatment of female characters but that’s kind of an mcu staple. it really seems like for every one good thing the russos do, they do about ten more bad things.

the long answer to this question is going under the cut because i am 100% going to rant and i am sorry but this is really gonna get into my unpopular marvel opinions and it will include endgame spoilers (they will be marked though). read at your own risk, i will try to warn if there is any “anti” characters or something.

examples of how they ruin the characterizations other directors set in place:

wanda. look i’m just gonna say it now i don’t care for mcu wanda (even without discussing her whitewashing) so if you don’t want to read something written by someone who doesn’t like her, skip this bullet point … in age of ultron, wanda WAS WILLINGLY WORKING FOR A NAZI ORGANIZATION AND UNLEASHED THE HULK ON AN INNOCENT CITY AND PUT THINGS IN TONY’S HEAD THAT LED HIM TO CREATE ULTRON. in age of ultron though, it was fairly clear that the avengers didn’t fully trust wanda and pietro when they “switched sides” but immediately in civil war, the russos wrote it as if none of that happened. i would like mcu wanda so much more if she was given a real redemption arc, like loki in ragnarok, letting her answer for the things she previously did and proving that she is trustworthy and a true ally. the avengers immediately pardoned her, so much that it wasn’t even talked about clint is exempt because pietro saved his life and a child’s life and thus felt responsible for wanda because the russos just really want to get the brownie points for including a female hero that isn’t black widow

tony in civil war. they made it pretty obvious that tony was supposed to be an antagonist or at least someone you should root against. whether you were team cap or team iron man or you didn’t care because it was so stupid the movie was written pretty clearly to favor team cap and make tony look awful … even though he had a perfectly valid and reasonable argument for signing the sokovia accords … i mean they really do need to be held accountable for all of the destruction they cause. and yeah i agreed with cap too because they shouldn’t relinquish all control to the government, but the russos wrote it so that tony looked like the bad guy, when he really reallyyyyyy wasn’t

thor. poor, poor, beautiful thor. in ragnarok, thor went through a major character arc that allowed him to see that he is more than just the person who can wield mjolnir because he has had the power and strength to be a hero within him all along, then BAM russos say screw that in infinity war and make him go off on this whole mission that really was a waste of time to get a weapon that he doesn’t need to defeat thanos. yeah i’ll admit storm breaker is cool and i love that he got to build a relationship with rocket and kind of groot but it is just so unnecessary when they could have done something different to build that relationship, but it literally says fuck taika’s storyline for thor.

loki. in the first five minutes of infinity war they kill him off in the most un-loki-like way possible. taika did so much for the characters in ragnarok, giving loki a true redemption arc and adding valkyrie to the mcu as a strong and important character, but do the russos care about any of that? NOOOOOOOO.

ENGAME SPOILERS START HERE.

so they ruined steve. i am not accepting his ending. it really just is not him, because as we have seen from the past six movies, he will pretty much do anything for bucky. ANYTHING. and i know he loves peggy, peggy was the love of his life except bucky but marvel is full of cowards but he moved on from her, and she moved on from him. i mean agent carter was about peggy proving herself as more than just captain america’s girlfriend, and steve going back in time to be with peggy erases all of the character development peggy went through as well. honestly, i think the russo brothers did that because they knew people would likely be more upset with steve dying than tony dying (maybe i’m wrong, but just of all the marvel fans i know irl, they like steve more than tony. for the record, i would have been equally sad with either of their deaths because i love them both) and the russo brothers are fully aware of how big the stucky ship is, and this was their way of saying “hey, guess what? we didn’t kill steve and he is hetero, and there was Nothing There with bucky”. they made steve just reinsert himself into peggy’s life, when he KNEW she was happy without him and peggy had no choice in it.

and as if they didnt do enough to thor in infinity war, they screwed him over EVEN MORE in endgame by making his only purpose to supply lazy fat jokes. there were so many other ways they could have depicted his depression, SO MANY WAYS, but they chose the lazy route of putting hemsworth in a fat suit and making fun of fat people the entire movie.

i can admit that they wrote carol well … but only when she was actually in the movie. i mean what she was there for maybe eight minutes?

and of course the lgbtq character was fucking joe russo as a glorified extra. queerbaiting that it was carol, thanks russos

ENDGAME SPOILERS END.

i really feel like i do need to clarify that i do love marvel and the mcu, and most of these characters just mean so much to me, but the way they are written and done dirty by the russo brothers when they were given such great developments before just ruin so much of it. and the russos actually do some great things, like as i said the rocket/groot/thor team up was awesome in infinity war, just what they were doing with said team up was undoing taika’s beautiful movie. the best way i can describe the russos is that they do one good thing for every ten bad things, and that’s that on that.

#im sorry if you dont like this #but asking me why i hate the russos is a LOADED question #anon #answered #endgame spoilers

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northlandian · 6 years ago

Text

Final Thoughts

So this is it.

Endgame is 1000% complete. The premiere was last night, and in less than 48 hours, it will be released to the public. Well, at least for me, in about...

(Yes, I have a countdown on my phone that’s been set up since last year that goes until Thursday, April 25, 2019, at 6:00pm)

I wanted to make a post about my predictions. Something I could come back to, so I could see if I was right or wrong. I remember doing that last year with some of my favourite fan artists and laughing at their prospective situations that turned out to be true.

But you see, the truth is... I have absolutely no idea what to expect. And that's not just a cheap copout of me saying "It's a Marvel movie, therefore anything can happen". We know nothing. Literally nothing. The trailers are compilations of repetitive clips revealing nothing past the first 20 minutes of a 3-hour 2-minute movie. We don't even know the films true plot.

Is there a time jump? Do they time travel? Why are they splitting up into teams, seeing how well that proved to work last time? How is Scott saved? Tony and Nebula? And what is their plan?

I don't know. I really don't. All any of us can do is take shots in the dark. RDJ said it himself that it is near impossible to predict what's going to happen.

So that got me thinking about something I've considered pretty much since the debut of the first trailer...this movie is unpredictable...but there are some assumptions we've been making that we are assuming as a fact are going to happen.

But then there are also moments that I believe deserve to happen. Story arcs that need to be completed. Endings certain characters deserve.

So, drawn-out intros aside, here are my final thoughts on this movie.

Tony

Tony is an enigma. I've made a post in the past discussing why he might actually not die based on the chess motif and the necessity to save him as the "King", despite the fact that death is what we'd all expect. I'll be honest, when the first trailer came out, I thought to myself, "Wow. They're really trying to prep us for the heartbreak by shoving this foreshadowing down our throats.”

Obviously, this is based on the first half of the first trailer, with him adrift in space. I thought that maybe Captain Marvel would be the one to save him, or maybe Pepper in her rescue armour that was seen a couple months ago from a set photo. But how would they know where he was?

But after the second trailer debuted, I think I'm going to make the assumption that it is, in fact, Nebula, with her spare bodily robotic parts, who saves the two of them and brings them back to earth. I'm also going to assume that the scene from the trailers of Steve and the rest looking up at the night sky outside the compound (if that scene is even real) is them seeing Tony and Nebula arriving back to earth. Though I have considered the possibility of the space ship recording scene actually taking place at the end of the move...which would suck. But I'm also going to assume, based on the third trailer and clips that followed of Steve and Tony together, that they actually do reunite, in the present time.

Of course, this does not excuse him from the possibility of dying at all. And he very well could. But then, another thought crossed my mind. In Infinity War, the first time we see Tony on screen is with Pepper, discussing their wedding and possible children. See...why would they foreshadow that if they were to never make reference of it again? Sure, there's a possibility of a time jump with perhaps a wedding and maybe kid squeezed in there. After all, the whole vibe we're given from the second trailer is the question of where the world is supposed to go from the tragedy endured, and how some move on (then Steve of course says "but not us" but anyways). But that's only with the off chance that there is a time jump, and it seems kind of off in the first place. So assuming the foreshadowing wasn't for no reason, I'd like to think that there's a chance he lives long enough to retire and have a kid.

Tony and Pepper mentioning a kid isn't the only foreshadowing given for his survival, though. There was one line from Avengers that always stuck with me, and sort of got overshadowed by Tony's narcissistic but hilarious description of himself ("Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist."). It comes when Steve is criticizing Tony's character and motivation. He says:

"You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play. To lay down on a wire and let the other guy crawl over you."

To which Tony immediately responds:

"I think I would just cut the wire."

Time and time again, Tony has proven Steve wrong, the first obviously being when he flew through the wormhole in the same movie. But what if this is his play in this one too? To be presented with a one-or-the-other choice for who can be saved, but manages to do both? Alternatively, this could also play out to the opposite of our favour; maybe Tony does finally just crawl over the wire for someone. For example, I've pictured a scenario where they do indeed go back in time to retrieve the stones before Thanos does. It's a plausible situation, considering we know nothing of their plan. But when it comes time to retrieve the soul stone, it's Tony who decides to make the sacrifice. Maybe he argues over it with Steve, who would want to finish what he started with Red Skull and complete the fate he was given 70 years ago, but ultimately Tony forces him to comply to what he wants, which is to finally make the ultimate sacrifice.

(And for the record, if either of those situations plays out, I'm suing Marvel for emotional distress)

But there's one other option, and it's based on a line spoken by Tony in the trailer that really stuck out to me. It was when he was leaving his message to Pepper in the second trailer, and it's where he says:

"I know I said no more surprises, but I was really hoping to pull off one last one."

At first thought, I thought it may be like a "Surprise, honey! I'm not dead, and I've returned to earth to help defeat that giant grape!" sort of thing. And maybe it is. But I've also considered the possibility of Tony tricking someone or something. Perhaps tricking those into thinking he was dead. He did do it in Iron Man 3. But then again...who knows.

Sidenote: That's the end of my first thought and everything on Tony, and I have, like, *at least* twelve more to go. I was not expecting this to be this huge. Whoops.

Steve

It is so hard to get a read on what the hell is happening with this damn character. On one hand, Chris Evans has been talking for the longest time as if we all already know that his characters dead, with the way he speaks about his wrap-up with Marvel in general. But then there are people like the Russo's who say they have things in store that we don't know about yet. Like what?? Who do we believe? Are they just trying to cover up his obviousness? Or are we, again, making predictions that we shouldn't because this movie is actually so unpredictable??

Obviously, I don't know what's going to happen. What I will say is, I know what the fanbase expects, and that's for him to die. But again, just like in Tony's case, if that's one of the top expected outcomes, isn't it less likely going to happen?

Personally, I'm in favour of one specific theory many fans have contemplated and considered. The theory is that Steve, whether it be a result of the plot or by choice, goes back in time to the '40s, and that's where he lives out the rest of his life. He has his dance with Peggy, something foreshadowed so many times, including in the trailers, and they end up living together happily, and he endures the life he always wanted before going in the ice - that is how he phrased it at the end of Age of Ultron. So yes, he would most likely be "dead" in the present day from old age, as would Peggy (since she had already died in Civil War), but he would live out the life he always wanted.

OR - and I just thought of this now, literally as I'm writing - get this. He goes back to live in the '40s. But in present day, he's still alive, just very old. The Avengers (or whoever's left) go to see him by the end of the movie, maybe even during the after credits. And...it's Stan Lee. He is Steve Rogers. His final cameo.

(This seems highly unlikely, but the thought amused me. I also can't remember if the super soldier serum allows you to age properly in normal circumstances, but I don't wanna look it up at the risk of running into spoilers. Oh well, unresearched theory is unresearched.)

Thor

Don't get me wrong, I am still very much in the mindset of:

But if I'm being completely honest, yes, Thor, just like every other O6, the God of Thunder known by humans for his immortality, has a chance of not making it. With talks of a Thor 4 with dir. Taika Waititi, it seems unlikely, but the chance is still there. And it did get me thinking...

Loki telling him before his death, "The sun will shine on us again"...did he mean in Valhalla? I have had the thought of Thor possibly biting it, but then a scene where we see him there, reuniting with Loki, Heimdall, Frigga...even Odin. His loved ones. The ones he thought he could not go on without, finally being together again, him being happy in the afterlife.

It's a sucky thought, but a possible one.

Loki

Soooo...here we are. I'm not going over my whole freaking theory again, but I stand by what I wrote. Including the portion with the disclaimer where I established that I could be totally wrong.

But a possibility I also totally support is one where he is brought back with time travel. Why would he have a poster if he doesn't make a reappearance? What that reappearance is, I have no idea. Maybe, just like the comics, he does purposely bring the Avengers together in New York. Or maybe it's something heartfelt at the end, where time has rolled back, and it's immediately following Ragnarok. Thor is aware of the reverse, and everything that's happened, and Loki saunters into the dressing room again and makes the comment on Thor's eyepatch, but Thor is just so happy to see him, that he just hugs him, as it was foreshadowed in Ragnarok, and all is well, and they live happily ever after in Norway on Earth ruling Asgard together...

Idk. Just a thought.

A Cinematic Parallel

So this was just something I noticed when comparing the Infinity War and Endgame trailers.

So remember in the Infinity War trailer, where we see Tony just sitting with his hands folded over and we were like "huh wonder why they're covered in dirt", and then it turned out it was cause Peter just died, and it was his dust, and we all had a good laugh/cry when looking back on it.

Well...you know that moment in the Endgame trailer when Steve is covered in what looks to be sweat and dirt and he tightens his shield around his arm or something, and looks to be in extreme anguish over...something?

Well... I think that's our one glimpse at the end, just as Tony's was in the Infinity War trailer. I think someone just died in that moment.

That's literally it for that.

Death

We don't know who's going to die. We don't. And we don't know how. But that fact that the Russo's, Paul Rudd, and Chris Evans have been openly joking about character deaths is a definite indicator that whoever and however they go is not going to be mainstream. Like, I don't think it's going to be a Loki-type death, or the Tony-almost-death, where the character is just too overpowered by Thanos, or whoever else, and they die as a result. It's going to be complex. Or a decision the character makes that is self-sacrificing. Or something similar to the Steve time travel theory. But whatever it is, it is likely incredibly hard to guess.

Time Travel

The theories of time travel that have been circulating since the debut of Ant-Man and the Wasp are still just that - theories. I'll be honest, I'm still not 100% sure how the quantum realm can possibly assist them, other than getting them stuck in a time vortex. And even still, the operators of said quantum realm machine are dusted. That's all we have to go off of; that, obvious hair and suit changes throughout the trailers and set photos, and, of course, the fact that there are limited options as to how they can actually succeed at this point.

The Suits

Honestly, I just included this section to make fun of their new suits some more. They are so freaking ugly, it's hilarious. I remember when the photos of them were first leaked, everyone laughed and said it was too ugly to be real, yet HERE WE ARE.

So you can imagine how hard I laughed when I saw the second trailer for the first time, and how conflicted I was over how cool their "walk" was, but how gross the suits were.

Some actual memes I saved before the official release of the suits:

Bonus: Something I saved literally last November. And we're about to find out in less than two days...God, I'm not ready.

Prospective Scenes

There were a couple of scenes other than those I've already listed that would be incredibly satisfying to see.

Firstly, Tony and Pepper's wedding.

I always pictured it as the after credits scene. A final symbol of rest, retirement, and relaxation for Tony. And everyone's there, too. The rest of the O6, but also Peter and May, Happy, Rhodey, Sam, Wanda, the Guardians, T'Challa, Shuri, and their friends, Bucky, Dr. Strange (both reluctantly), Wong (of course), and the rest of their friends and (remaining) family. Everyone's watching as the shot is on them. And standing behind them, telling Tony he may kiss the bride, is the minister - Stan Lee. His final cameo.

(Or at least the one I originally had in mind).

The perfect ending for the perfect character arc. And oh, how unlikely it is to happen.

I'm also curious to know, now that it's confirmed, how the story will reintroduce Valkyrie, who happens to be one of my favourite characters, and also who may have escaped with her (hopefully with one of my other favourite characters...).

But there is a scene which we know for a fact is going to happen, and may have gotten a glimpse of during the final trailer, with the shot of Rocket and Nebula sitting somberly and holding hands. It's Rocket finding out that the other Guardian's didn't survive. Since separating from the other Guardians in Infinity War, Rocket did not know of their outcome, and there was no one to relay the message. That...is going to be heartbreaking to watch. Especially after seeing Rocket's character development in GOTG 2.

Prospective Dialogue

Just like certain scenes, there are lines that would be amazing to hear from specific characters.

The first, and probably most popular and obvious, is, of course:

"Avengers Assemble"

If Cap doesn't finally deliver this line with so much passion in this goddamned movie...

But then there was also a line of my personal preference that I really wanted to be heard in the movie, especially if it was said by either Tony, or Steve, or both of them to Thanos. And it's...:

"Because if we can't protect the Earth, you can be damn well sure we'll avenge it."

Which is why I was SO HYPED BUT ANNOYED when I heard it in the trailer because so much of that content isn't going to make it into the movie.

I guess we'll see.

The Stones

So a common...what would you call it...theme, I guess? I've noticed is the correlation between the Avengers and the infinity stones. There are, of course, the six original Avengers left, and six stones. Each Avenger happens to almost perfectly fit into the representation of each stone.

Thor is the Space Stone - Probably most obvious. The Tesseract came from his family, and he has done space travel all his life.

Steve is the Time Stone - As he is "the man out of time".

Banner is the Mind Stone - A scientific genius, yet can't control his own mind.

Barton is the Reality Stone - He conceals his reality - his family - from the rest of his life and his world.

Natasha is the Power Stone - Often viewed as the weak link, even by allies (ie. Scott in Civil War), yet probably one of the strongest and most powerful team members, both physically, and mentally.

And finally - Tony is the Soul Stone - The godfather and soul of the team.

I don't know what this means for Endgame, if it means anything at all. It was just something I noticed.

Fate

There is one last theme I've come to notice throughout the original six, and it's the fact that each of them had their fate severely altered, almost unnaturally, to end up where they are in Endgame.

Tony, of course, almost died in a cave after being kidnapped by terrorists. He only built the Mark 1 suit to escape, and nearly died in the process of that. If he did not go to Afghanistan for the weapons presentation, not only would he not be Iron Man, but he would not be with Pepper, and he would still be manufacturing weapons - or worse, Obidiah would've had him killed another way.

Steve, of course, was selected to be the test subject of the super soldier serum, but that's not what altered his fate. He was destined for that for his grit and determination alone. His fate was altered when he survived something he shouldn't have - When he came out of the ice alive. None - and I mean none - of the events within the Avengers, SHIELD, or anything could have happened if he had died as he was supposed to.

With Bruce, you'd think I would refer to his gamma experiment in general, but that's not it either. That was also destined, similar to Steve's experiment. His is mentioned more briefly in Avengers, and it's the fact that he tried to kill himself. His attempt backfired, as he says he immediately transformed into the Hulk and thus, survived. But his intent was there, and if not for the quick reflexes and will to live of the Hulk (something that was NOT demonstrated in Infinity War, mind you), he would be gone.

Clint's and Natasha's basically go hand-in-hand. In Avengers, we find out that Clint was sent to kill Natasha, as she was part of the KGB. Natasha, in return, would have to try and kill Clint, not that it would have been different from any other enemy of theirs at the time. But because Clint made the call to try and reason with her and get her to turn, they both came out alive rather than the false dichotomy of a situation that would have left at least one of them dead.

And finally, there's Thor. His is a bit trickier to pinpoint because although he's been in death-defying situations, it's unclear if he's ever come close to death like a mortal would. But it's Thor who actually describes this fate that got me thinking about this theme in the first place, as he tells Rocket in Infinity War:

"You know, I'm 1500 years old. I've killed twice as many enemies as that, and every one of them would have rather killed me, but none succeeded. I'm only alive because fate wants me alive."

Fate wants him alive. And apparently it wants the other five alive as well. Otherwise, three of them would be dust, based on probability of the snap. But all six of them remain.

Again, I have no idea what this means for Endgame. I'm just pointing out what I believe to be significant.

Wow, so those are a lot more thoughts than I thought I'd have...this took about 3 hours to write, lol. So I think I'm going to leave it at that, and find out what happens on Thursday. I am in no way ready for it to all be over. And I've never been so terrified to watch a movie. And I've never had to consider that this might be the final 48 hours of a characters life.

This is going to be big. And I can't wait. But goddamn I am so scared.

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valentineblaze · 6 years ago

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Endgame Spoilers

Listen up people I am here to rant.

Tony Stark is effing amazing and I love every second of his gilded trashbag life. But this was just a killer. Dad Tony was everything I wanted and more let me tell ya. I love you 3000 is freaking heartbreaking. I have no issue with his arc in the movie at all even if the end does cause me to break out into back breaking sobs because fuck you. If Tony is going to die by gauntlet then you had better be damn sure everyone he even peripherally gave a damn about is going to make it through this fight. Natasha, Gamora, Loki, and every single Asgardian Tony could remember would have been brought back because that man is the definition of all or nothing.

What I have issues with is the sheer lack of world building we get in this movie. Honestly its the Snap and the only glimpse of this Post apocalyptic world is group Therapy and Remembrance walls. As well as several miscellaneous flashbacks to Hawk-eyes surprise family? That not even comic fans are super attached too because they were literally made up probably for male man pain. Where was the atmosphere? Where was the drama? Where was the angst? Post snap was quite honestly not heart wrenchingly rendered into a suitable level of grief. It just wasn't. I expected break downs and rage. All I got was three seconds of Natasha tears as she has let someone else tracking down her soulbro. And a Tony Stark screaming at Captain America. This movie just told us what was happening didn't show us what was happening. It was piss poor story boarding.

Then there was the character development. Like wow. We get all these new and amazing side characters in which you could have fleshed out and made us root for and you just throw them to the sea like chum. -Captain marvel is just not there at all, she gets a gratuituous girl power scene which was random and then she gets slapped to the ground never to get up? Right after she take a head butt without a single flinch. You can small Thanos's fear right then. -Rocket gets to slap Thor? Thats it thats his most memorable moment other the holding Nebula's hand. -Rhodey has some of the best lines but no development or follow up. -Nebula there is so much happening off screen that it physically hurts me. She is amazing. I adore her. I want a series of her. Nebula is my bitch bea. I found a new hoe to die for and it is she. She is my new ride or die. Found family and redemption arcs come at me. -Sam and Bucky both get maybe two lines a piece and that just irks me.

Time travel... yes bitch I am always there for time travel hijinks and drama but honestly five minutes of a single episode of leverage had more heist feels then this three hour train wreck. It might have been the lack of a great soundtrack but it just wasn't that compelling to watch. I'm also really confused about the time travel thearory in this shit because they kept going back on thier own writing through out the movie (cough cough STEVE cough) I'm a fan of we rewrite the future by affecting the past. Butterfly effect is my Jam. This alternate reality thing is fun yes but it can't really be that because they may create alternate realities okay? then if there was the need for pym particals for time travel to occur how did Thanos's big ass army get enough to travel through time to the future? Because the avengers were out or at least low regardless of Steve's thievery and Nebula only had the one from my understanding. Also if changing the reality makes a new reality how the fuck was Steve in this reality.

Bruce , Bruce, Bruce. My beautiful green rage monster and yoga doctorate what have they done to you. What is going on. Why are you so cheerful. Why are you at peace. I hate to say it but go back. Why are we still doing this Nat/Bruce ship? It is so random. I just can't see it. Fandom can trick me into it for a few chapters but not forever. Ya'll should have taken a hint from Ragnorok give me that personality and it would have been a win. Shock and dismay was my only emotions when it came to this mess.

My constant rage with this series is pick up an effin comic book. Sit down watch a cartoon. If anyone is going to become a human disaster post Snap its going to be effin Hawkeye. Like yay Ronin cool but what the actual fuck. Why did you come at me like that? Hawkeye is not your edgy overlord. He probably would have died ages ago with out the female influences in his life. He has regular dates with dumpsters. I'm sure he even has a ranking system for prefered dumpsters to end up in after a beat down. Yes he is startlingly competent but even he doesn't know how he does it half the time. He eats food off the floor and thinks expiration dates are guidelines.

Thor was a new one. They threw me for a loop. One this man needs a hug. Two, why is no one hugging him? His rampant depression and weight gain shouldn't have been the butt of jokes. There should have been some honest concern and meaningful conversations with the living not the dead. Thor never doubted his mother's love. That was never up for debate. Thor is not to blame for the snap. Thor will give no fucks if he messes up the timeline if it means his family is alive and together. Especially post Ragnarok. Also I could have sworn Thanos killed every asguardian on his ship at the beginning of infinity war? How is Valkyrie alive? Why would Thor decide to go to space?

I’m not even gonna touch on the Black Widow for this one. I’m just not gonna go there. Blind rage doesn’t even cover it.

Howard Stark. Wow just wow I thought I was having some weird ass delusion. That man is scum. Comic canon scum. One of the smartest men on the planet yes, revolutionary war hero technically yes, great father and overall good human being? Hell to the no. Tony literally named his A.I. after Jarvis, cried over the death of J.A.R.V.I.S, I would have expected a quiet chat about fatherhood and marriage and how it can make the best out of any man (he hopes) before I got a conversation with dear old dad.

Why can’t Tony and Steve have one friendly conversation? A sense of camaraderie? Anything? Why is that so hard?

Steve "fight me" Rogers what has MCU done to you? I'm supposed to believe that you would have left Bucky Barnes to Hydra's hands for over 70 years. Im supposed to believe that you would have been in the past and had no interactions with Howard Stark. Im supposed to believe that the you married the Director of Shield and you didn't wax poetry about the amazing woman that diegned to marry you every damn day of your life? This woman on her deathbed told you she lived a long and fulfilled life and that you should move on to have the same happiness as she and you did what? That he wouldn't have dismantled every last bit of Hydra. That he would just let Natasha and Tony die because of that shitty delusional grape? The disrespect STEVEN the disRESPECT! I am a Stony stan for sure but hell if I don't respect Peggy Carter. So yay steve gets his happy cis gendered ending but what about the rest of em?

#i will spend the next week editing this #endgame #spoilers #i hate it #i really really hate it.#mcu #endgame spoilers #my rage doesn't hit civil war or ultron levels mostly because i'm just tired but #seething is accurate

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that-shamrock-vibe · 7 years ago

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Movie Review: Deadpool 2 (Spoilers)

Spoiler Warning: I am posting this review the weekend after the movie is released in the U.K. So if you haven’t yet seen the movie don’t read on.

General Reaction:

Pop culture references, or "Meta-Referencing" as it's called in some circles, has become such à staple in both movies and television that it is hard to know who originated it. But in terms of who owns it, that largely is Fox as their animated TV shows, such as Family Guy and American Dad, are built around it. However, Deadpool as a character is a meta-referencing construct. Spouting pop culture satire is what he has been known for since his creation, being the "Merc with the Mouth" and fans may worry that if he didn't have that, would he be a quality character.

Well if Deadpool 2 is anything to go by, I'd say that's a yes. Yes there are still meta-references spread throughout this movie, but the movie doesn't rely on them and instead becomes a fully-rounded comic-book action movie. In my opinion more so than the first Deadpool movie and even Avengers: Infinity War in terms of story.

Yes the plot is pretty much ripping off Terminator but it does Terminator how you would expect Deadpool to do Terminator. Not only does it satirically play homage to that movie but also the amount of pot shots it takes both at the MCU and DCEU is fantastic.

My two critiques with the meta-referencing in this movie is 1) There is a joke made about child molesting early on in this movie that hinders on that line of very poor taste and 2) They missed some very obvious chances to make fun of some of the movie's cast that they had no reason to miss. When your main character wears a mask covering his mouth, then the writers and director have no excuses when watching this movie in post and saying "Hey we missed an obvious Billy Skarsgård as Pennywise joke and a joke about Orange is the New Black, Black Panther and Wonder Woman, no worries we can have Ryan Reynolds dub over" but alas there is nothing.

As a fully rounded movie however, there is one thing I never expected to see in a Deadpool movie and that is a genuinely emotional scene, in this case Vanessa's death, yes the first movie had Wade discovering he had cancer, but with this scene there were one or two moments I felt would be used to turn the scene satirical, both with the microwave pinging and Wade's emotional reaction but surprisingly they just kept to the reaction...it was somewhat watered down at the end when Wade went back in time and saved her but I'll get into that when I talk about Vanessa further down.

Cast:

On the subject of characters, much like the first movie this cast proves to be a great support in a movie that is solely the Ryan Reynolds/Deadpool show, unlike the first movie though this cast do just seem to be supporting players.

Ryan Reynolds was born to play Deadpool just as Hugh Jackman was born to play Wolverine and Krysten Ritter was born to play Jessica Jones. What he does with this character is nothing short of magic. I cannot describe just how much I love this actor in this role, this is coming from a guy who has never been a Ryan Reynolds fan...at all.

I love the fact they finally embraced Pansexual Deadpool as he was clearly in a committed relationship with Vanessa but he did have some flirtatious banter with Colossus and even Cable, I mean he used his crotch in Cable’s face as an offensive attack.

Reynolds’ physical comedy is upped in this movie, not only does he have that brilliant crouched over through the legs on a moving car bit that I found quite funny but also the that prison break scene when Wade falls from the walkway smack onto a table with his body effectively bent over was really gross and really cool. I haven’t seen physical comedy this funny since Jim Carrey in the 90s; think Ace Ventura or The Mask, even The Grinch, that is what I was reminded of watching Ryan Reynolds in this movie.

As I said, everyone else was effectively a supporting player but the next two with the biggest roles were Josh Brolin as Cable and Julian Dennison as Russell Collins aka Firefist. What is interesting about both these characters is I have only ever seen them in the 90s X-Men animated series. Cable was a recurring player in all four seasons while Russell was named Rusty and only appeared in one episode during Season 3.

Josh Brolin as Cable was surprisingly very good and the fact he is still appearing as Thanos in Avengers: Infinity War was not a distraction because both characters are very different and with the CGI on Brolin for Thanos, there is a definite distinction between the two.

They definitely didn’t spend enough time establishing Cable as a character in his own right, outside of the fact his wife and daughter Hope were killed by an adult Russell which is why he traveled back in time there was no real character development. There was a minor scene when Cable is looking in the mirror at his body and it does seem he’s pained over the fact the techno-organic virus that is never mentioned is trying to take over his body but other than that there is really nothing defining other than the fact he was a formidable threat.

The fact he chose to stay at the end of the movie wasn’t exactly a shocker because Deadpool 2 was a back-door pilot in setting up X-Force, even though he saw that his family were alive because his daughter Hope’s teddy bear that he carries with him which was burned but then looked like new when they fixed the timeline which was a stereotypical time-travel trope but a good one, he decides to stick around for no real reason. When Wade says a line earlier in the movie saying “That’s just bad writing” I was thinking Cable’s ending was more sloppy.

As for Russell Collins aka Firefist, I really didn’t get on board with this character. Yes he was the troubled youth that had trauma in his past and being a Mutant in this universe is never good for anyone of any age, but he was just angry. Yes he had one or two funny lines but most of the time his motivation as a character did not seem genuine. In fact, Russell here reminded me of Jamie Foxx as Electro in The Amazing Spider-Man 2, a character needing to be needed.

Whereas Domino I felt I did not get enough of, genuinely mostly everything we have seen of the character in this movie was in the trailers. She had one or two more good lines particularly with the truck chase but outside of that I was left underwhelmed as a fan of Domino’s because I wanted her to be a scene-stealer similar to Black Widow, Deadpool even calls her “Black Black Widow”.

Colossus again proves to be quite a comedic and competent character despite his earlier appearances in the original X-Men trilogy. The only issue is, we never see him outside of being metallic and yet again Deadpool makes the joke about the studio not being able to afford more X-Men than Colossus and Negasonic Teenage Warhead.

Although there is a fantastic cameo from the X-Men: Apocalypse X-Men team while Deadpool is making this budget speech as the shot cuts to a profile shot of Wade showing a classroom with that team played by those actors in. In the room there is Beast, Quicksilver, Nightcrawler, Storm, Cyclops and bald Professor X all of whom were played by the same actors who portrayed them in X-Men: Apocalypse. It was interesting to see that neither Sophie Turner nor Jennifer Lawrence made an appearance as Jean Grey and Mystique respectively but literally the show was a blink and you will miss it type of shot.

Circling back to Negasonic Teenage Warhead, and I’m going to call her Ellie because it’s easier and that’s her civilian name, again like Domino most of what we’ve seen from her we saw in the trailers but what was confirmed in this movie was her LGBT status.

Now it is not confirmed if she is bisexual or a lesbian but she is in a relationship with Yukio, who I think is supposed to be Surge from the comics but her name is Noriko not Yukio and Yukio is in fact from The Wolverine portrayed by Rila Fukishima in which case I am frustrated with this character because I loved what Rila did with it. Regardless, I applaud this movie because I have recently written up a Research Project for my university course about the lack of LGBT representation in Marvel and this movie gave me hope that maybe they are turning a corner, both with the teenage lesbian lovers and Deadpool’s pansexuality.

I did have the opportunity to meet Brianna Hildebrand at Comic-Con in March but opted out in favour of Yondu but I continue to be happy with her role in these movies.

Then X-Force as a team, the biggest tease I have seen for quite some time, I haven’t seen such a tease lacking followup since The Amazing Spider-Man 2 and the promise of the Sinister Six. Almost every trailer in this movie promoted the X-Force team starting in this movie but what the trailers failed to say was that they’d be seen for a grand total of five minutes and then literally be killed off save for Deadpool and Domino.

When you have the likes of Terry Crewes and Bill Skarsgård in the movie, particularly with Billy coming off of such a success with It, yet barely have them speak and don’t really have any screen-time or development before killing them off just to say “We’ve had X-Force” it’s a waste. I mean I get only having Lewis Tan for a glorified cameo as he is more of a stuntman and he was playing a character that would have been all stunts mainly but again it was such a wasted opportunity.

Although the one thing the team did right was give us a bigger shock cameo than Matt Damon in Thor: Ragnarok and I am talking Brad Pitt as Vanisher. Now for most of the time Vanisher was invisible however when he fell down onto the power-lines and got electrocuted to reveal himself as Brad Pitt, the audience I saw this movie gave the biggest reaction all movie. It was such a surprise and such a non-commitment type of role that Pitt didn’t have to do it but either did 20th Century Fox a favour or Ryan Reynolds a favour, either way it actually made me respect him more.

Outside of that brief cameo, the biggest shock for me was the reveal of Juggernaut. I was actually very surprised to see him in this movie. When they “foreshadowed” the character, I genuinely did not know who it was going to be but the fact it was Juggernaut and looking more like Juggernaut than Vinnie Jones did I was loving it. Although I wasn’t so keen on the fact that Ryan Reynolds provided the voice, again Vinnie Jones was great vocally and physically in the role it was just how they styled him I had a problem with. Also the fact he was defeated by essentially having an electric enema was a little bit in poor taste, again there’s a line and Deadpool both as a character and a franchise dance very finely on it.

Then as for Vanessa, I really like Morena Baccarin as an actress but currently I am not entirely sure she knows what role she wants to commit to. Yes she is a mainstay on Gotham and has been fantastic on that all season and it is clear she was not in the first few episodes because of filming this, but then there is the fact she is back voicing Gideon on The Flash which is a minor voice-over role and then there was this but it is such a watered down version of the character from the comics to the point where she was never revealed as a mutant or had her appearance from the comics. Although interestingly enough the character did first appear in the comics as Domino before revealing herself properly.

The end-credits scene which saw Ellie fix Cable’s time-travelling device and stupidly giving it to Deadpool allowed him to go back and save Vanessa, meaning she’s not dead, which if you follow time-travel lore means the events of this movie should not have happened but even so I digress.

Deadpool’s Future:

My final thoughts are on the future of Deadpool in terms of movies because of course there is a pending merger that could threaten that.

I do think that when you consider the fact Fox is in the midst of having it’s movie and television properties going over to Disney, one has to consider if Deadpool and the X-Men have a future. Yes Kevin Feige is going to want to capitalize on Deadpool’s box office to add to his own gross and they have confirmed that Deadpool will stay R-Rated. but the meta-referencing to the MCU may have to be taken out if the character becomes part of the MCU and also if Ryan Reynolds does not continue to have control over the character as he does now then we lose something special.

Now they have said that Deadpool 3 will in fact be an X-Force movie and it is already in negotiations, however I do not believe that any development in terms of script, casting or filming will take place until this merger is confirmed. While I think Deadpool is meta enough to be the only surviving character from Fox in this merger, I do think making the movie as Fox but then either part way through or even at the point of premiere becoming a Disney property would mess up what is currently one of the best comic-book movie franchises out there.

Overall I rate this movie a 9/10, it’s not the best movie I have ever seen however both as the type of comic-book movie it promised and the type of character actor Ryan Reynolds is it is a perfect movie. It just isn’t higher because I do not feel the immediate urge of a rewatchability factor.

So that’s my review of Deadpool 2, what did you guys think? Post your comments and check out more Marvel Movie Reviews as well as other Movie Reviews and posts.

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mattelektras · 6 years ago

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GIRL HEY I LOVE YOU and your blog and just all your marvel thoughts and opinions and your recs tag WOW you got me into comics like THANK YOU AND YOUR SOUL and so i am so curious to know like what are your issues with mcu? like everything i want to know EVERYTHING, every little detail that's bothered you to the shitty casting to the whitewashing to the lack of development LET ME HEAR IT PLEASE

OH HOW LONG DO YOU HAVE. pretty much all of this excludes black panther and ragnarok. nothing but respect for my mcu

it took them literally 10 years and like 20 movies to have anyone that wasn't a white man lead a solo film. like. that is a LONG ASS TIME

not to mention the straight people EVERYWHERE until valkyrie who they didn't SHOW is bi. trust only tessa thompson and taika watiti. let that be the lesson here

and the women and people of colour they DID have in their movies were done incredibly dirty like rhodey (who could absolutely have held a solo movie following iron man 2. or even 1 like. they just slipped in that he’s become a superhero n didn't do anything with it like... really????????) gets shot in the fuckin spine by that piece of shit robot. sharon was set up so well and now doesn't exist. mcu nat i dont even know where to begin

mcu maximoffs/dr strange/iron fist. the whitewashing trifecta. they went for the hatrick and they nailed it. thanks i hate it

but with the maximoffs specifically like. GOD theyre bad. wendy has gone from ‘moves things with her mind’ (not wanda’s actual powers but whatevs we’ll get to that bit) to literally being able to destroy an infinity stone. she’s everything mr whedon wants in a female character. and mcu pietro??? a weak bitch. pietro maximoff would die of spite before he sacrificed himself for clint fucking barton

so many of the movies dont line up with one another like PLEASE marvel directors watch each other’s movies. the russos basically turned up at taika watiti’s house and told him to go fuck himself

or just... hire good directors.... the russos fooled everyone into thinking they were good with cap 2 but what the ever loving fuck was civil war and infinity war

stop with the war shit no one likes superheroes vs superheroes

this is petty and i KNOW movies dont have to follow the comics like. i know that and sometimes its a very good thing, but with marvel they wanna take parts from the comics, sometimes GOOD parts and they wanna fuck it all up and force it to fit into their shitty narrative. like. civil war for example.. had a PURPOSE in comics. it was a genuine grey area and, well written, it could've been a nuanced scenario about how different types of people might have benefited or suffered from it (re: mutants etc). in the mcu, civil war was uuuuuh wendy blew up some people and she used to be a nazi but we’re all gonna defend her because im steve rogers and i do what the fuck i like regardless of literally everything else.

they based the mcu on the ultimates universe???? TAKE THE GOOD BITS THEN!!!! like take miles morales instead of just giving peter his life and his friends

get better actors jesus christ. just. better as people would be a start. ms substitute asian johansson and mr Gun Rights pratt. perish

the chris x3 jokes really arent endearing either. some of em have gotta go

please hire someone with real eyes for your costume department!!!!!! say what you like about dc movies, but they all WORK together. their suits have the same tone/materials/overall look. the avengers look like a bunch of people who have never met before

speaking of, i physically cannot buy the ‘friendship’ the avengers supposedly have. they dont talk!!!!!! there’s too many of them to actually get any solid team development!!! you want me to believe thor even knows hawkeye’s real name??? he doesn't!! and he doesn't give a shit either!!

if you're gonna do a romantic relationship......... fucking stick with it or actually end it. steve/sharon could have been SO GOOD but where has that gone. nat/hulk was hideous and thank god it died but WHERE has it gone.

not to mention the fact that gamora has literally shown no interest towards peter but she loves him in infinity war somehow

peggy carter is really NOT THAT IMPORTANT!!!! people are still out here shittalking sharon, the LEADING CAP COMICS WOMAN, STEVE’S MAIN AND PRETTY MUCH SOLE LOVE INTEREST, because she's not peggy carter and she doesn't talk about girl power whilst wearing winged eyeliner. steve and peggy kissed once like if thats your standard for a life long relationship then im married to like 8 people i knew when i was 15

the general need marvel has to own all of their properties. homecoming was a good movie, but did we need it??? like really???? people have seen so many spider man movies but no one had seen a black panther or captain marvel movie and they both got shoved back to accommodate the 3rd peter parker ive seen in my lifetime

SPEAKING OF REPETITION.... snarky movies led by white men alongside a woman who is clearly more capable than they are but dont get any recognition for it are the same. the exact fucking same

CAN POST CREDITS SCENES PLEASE DIE im not sitting around for 20 minutes waiting for something cool like a hint of a new hero only to see steve fucking rogers doing his ironing or some shit. if its not worth it, dont do it maybe

the colour grading is ugly as sin. if it’s got some over saturated primary colours in it... its a marvel movie

marvel movies are just.... straight up not funny at this point lmao like im not a 13 year old boy i dont find dick and whore jokes funny try again

‘it’ll kill you’ ‘only if i die’ ‘yes thats what killing you means’ is supposed to be funny and i get that but uuuuuh its just bad dialogue and there are so many lines like that. write a good fucking movie and then MAYBE you won't have to fill scenes with empty conversations to take up the time

fuck the mcu guardians of the galaxy, to put it finely. mcu peter is a dick and his altered back story makes him even more of a dick. drax isn't a dumbass, gamora would rather die than touch peter. mantis is a literal celestial goddess, not some old white dude’s sleep time therapist

mostly what it comes down to with me though is that marvel literally does not have to make good movies. they can make any old shit and make literally millions of dollars. barely anyone gave a fuck about ant man or doctor strange, and if you didn't read comics, you likely wouldn't have even KNOWN who they were but everyone went to see them because they had marvel on the posters. and thats pretty much marvel’s entire deal. ALL they do is get credit for things they havent done

oh and fuck vision too

#i could go on #anonymous #q & a

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why-this-kolaveri-machi · 7 years ago

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avengers: infinity war

um. SPOILERS.

so i finally watched spiderman: infinity war avengers: infinity war yesterday with the inimitably awesome aakanksha ( @franklyineedcoffee). it was great! very cgi and very Epic.

like. mcu movies were never terribly remarkable to me, but then they got Spiderman involved (and made him great!) and the ensuing trifecta of extremely enjoyable films (homecoming, ragnarok and black panther) finally made a fangirl out of me. which basically primed me perfectly to enjoy the shit out of infinity war.

a few thoughts! a second reminder for SPOILERS because i discuss about basically everything.

1. the film did a great job juggling so many characters and so many plot threads? of course some parts were under-served (the whole wakanda stretch was a bit meh to me), but at no point was i just waiting for the film to get back to the Interesting Bit. almost all of it was equally engaging.

2. i’d heard a lot about thanos going into this film but what i wasn’t expecting was to be reminded of two villains that the mcu had done really, really well recently: adrian toomes/the vulture from homecoming, and erik killmonger from black panther. thanos isn’t nearly as compelling as either of them and certainly doesn’t deserve a fraction of the sympathy we can reasonably afford to either toomes/killmonger, but the kind of sad, single-minded conviction that he used to justify murdering trillions of people? yeah, that was all-too-familiar. far from the cackling, evil villain trope, both toomes and killmonger were shaped and scarred by unforgiving circumstances; you didn’t approve of the stuff they did but their pathos was palpable. thanos plays this part of the villain arc very well--he doesn’t visibly delight in death and destruction, but does it because he is burdened with it. and isn’t that how it usually goes in the real world? the worst people in the world never believe in their own evil--just their own status as a Special Person Who Knows Something Better Than Everyone Else. a special destiny, a special responsibility with all that power. sometimes the line between superhero and villain is so, so thin.

2.5. because looking at it objectively, his motivation was some malthusian bullshit, yeah? and in a way recalls some of the most harrowing repercussions of bullshit science from the early twentieth century. so if i read one more thinkpiece about ‘errrrr guys maybe thanos had a point’ i’m going to lose it. both the writing and performance for thanos was fantastic--he practically dripped with gravitas, even under all the layers of cgi and chaotic fight scenes--but let’s not confuse that with actual sense/decency, yeah?

3. the groupings were great--so great that i could’ve readily watched an entire film based on any one of them. my favourite had to be thor with rocket/groot. i would’ve never guessed it, but it turned out to be the most poignant dynamic of them all. that little conversation that rocket had with thor was a little oasis in the middle of a terribly chaotic movie and neatly tied in and mirrored the incredible character development both the characters had undergone in their last movies--GotG vol 2 and ragnarok. this scene for me was an example of the ultimate reward of getting a film like infinity war--a moment of truly resonant emotional connection between two wildly differing characters and genres.

3.5. and, btw, the genres! can we talk about that a bit? it was a really cool mix of generic superhero stuff with sci-fi, a touch of horror, magic, swords-and-sorcery, opposites-meet comedy, a bit of romance, and just good old-fashioned family drama.

3.75. and speaking of drama, the whole arc with gamora was gutting and inspired more tears from me than the much-talked-about snap. the sheer range of emotions she went through right before and after she realised that thanos was going to kill her and why! zoe saldana is fucking amazing.

4. aagh i just wished we had more time but all of the groups played really well off each other: i enjoyed iron man and company in particular because duh, spiderman, and watching three gigantic egos clash in the form of tony stark, dr strange, and peter quill was entertaining as all hell. and i know tumblr fandom in particular likes to give tony a hard time but i was impressed not just by his quick thinking, his surely-impossible technology, and his raw physical strength, but also his ability to lead, well, any team. he had spiderman covered (summoning the iron spider suit! appointing him an avenger! collaborative flying of an alien spaceship!), had dr strange figured out pretty quickly, and tried his best to steady peter quill.

4.5. the group on wakanda wasn’t nearly as compelling, but much of their screen time was filled with fighting cannon fodder and that’s literally the least interesting part of any mcu movie, so. i guess i was also annoyed by rhodey basically throwing away the principled position he took in civil war--the narrative had to essentially make the regulatory body a one-dimensional super-villain. and, like. whatever. the avengers have to reform, etc. but it still stinks. i kind of dozed through the parts of civil war that didn’t involve spiderman but some of the issues that it raised were compelling. but then those issues were just used as an excuse to get a slugfest between iron man and captain america and now somehow an agreement signed by 150+ countries is all about oh no! will steve and tony ever make up?? like, fuck that shit.

4.85. i didn’t expect to be as moved as i was by vision and wanda, though. unlike the nat/bruce thing that also kind of came out of the blue in ultron, these two were weirdly compelling. (although wanda’s missing accent is bothering me.)

5. there was so much cgi in this movie! some of it was truly breathtaking but more often than not it felt suffocating. i feel like tony stark and co. were especially ill-served: the deep blues of the doughnut spaceship and the flashy, dusty oranges on titan just made it more difficult to see the characters and, idk. i’m not a fan of the effect.

5.5. everything involving thor was great, tho. couldn’t possibly match the climactic bridge scene in ragnarok in terms of pure Epicness but came close several times.

6. mmm, what else? i really liked that this film undercut a lot of the truly dramatic scenes with humour--it just lent a dreadful sense of finality to the scenes that left us with death rather than a punchline.

6.5. another note: i realise that thor continually calling rocket and groot ‘rabbit and tree’ was supposed to be funny, but why would he do that? the ‘captain’ has a name. and he speaks groot’s language! why would he call him something as reductive as ‘tree’? (unless groot’s actual name is tree) it’s just a little niggling thing but it’s starting to bother me a lot now.

6.55. but i do find it a little endearing that prideful, extremely sensitive rocket never once bothered to correct thor.

7. ultimately the Epicness that made this movie possible is also one of the things that repeatedly threatens to bring it down. i just don’t want this film to fall down the rabbit hole that SPN finds itself in--expand its scope exponentially and find itself unable to remotely do it the justice that it deserves. what do you do with a character who could kill half the universe with a snap of his fingers? what do you do with characters who, in their individual movies, have expressed powers and resources that are seriously large-scale?

we see the film sputter in this respect a couple of times: i never understood why thanos didn’t just use the reality stone to, say, turn tony’s tech into cheesecake or something. out of respect at the man’s sheer tenacity? idk. and loki going out by trying to stab thanos was weird to me. was he deliberately sacrificing himself? is there something else going on? doesn’t he have much better weapons in his arsenal? at least he was aiming for the head

and the consequences of the final snap where more than half of the heroes disintegrated in front of their friends’ eyes should’ve felt more devastating, but the neatness of the old avengers being spared so that they could save (avenge if you will) their next generation in a final hurrah in the next movie seemed way too obvious. that’s not to say it wasn’t impactful. watching peter parker disintegrate in tony’s arms, fighting till the very last minute to stay he was so scared oh god he just wanted to stay and for mr stark to make it all right was gutting, no matter how much i’d prepared myself for it. i may have whimpered.

8. i’m sure i have a lot more to say but it’s getting late and i’m tired, so. another post in the near future maybe.

but before i go, how could i not talk about spiderman?? i screamed my throat raw at the first sight of peter parker, and although he doesn’t actually get all that much screen time he made every second count. the awe-inspiring appearance of the iron spider. “have you ever seen that old movie, aliens?” the sheer range of emotions that passed his face when tony stark officially made him an avenger. flying spaceships along with tony. fun with magic portals! almost getting the gauntlet off because he is Just That Strong. saving mantis and drax. and clinging to life till the very last second even as the edges of his body were starting to wisp away. this boy. god. how mcu hit the perfect formula to represent my all-time favourite superhero on screen is a mystery, but i’m so so glad it happened.

#mcu #avengers #infinity war #infinity war spoilers #spoilers #meta #thanos

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redvanillabee · 6 years ago

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Post-credit Scene – BBC Sherlock Series 4 VS Avengers: Infinity War

This is a postscript to my standalone MCU meta, Don’t Mourn - Avengers: Infinity War and the Five-Act Structure. The following piece can largely be understood without having first read the linked piece, but I do make small references back to the main meta.

While I was unaware at first, Infinity War gives me a very strong sense of déjà vu. From the marketing to the plot to the fan reactions, it feels like something I’ve seen. And then it hit me:

Infinity War reminds me of BBC Sherlock Series 4.

Fan Theories and Reactions

The first thing about Infinity War that reminds me so much of Sherlock S4 is the fan theories and fan reactions. Both fandoms have similar expectations over what they might see in the show, but those expectations are similarly let down, and the reactions are almost identical.

1. Character Deaths

If there is one thing that both the Sherlock fandom and the Marvel fandom are no strangers to, it is character deaths. Or more accurately, highly ambiguous character deaths that gets written over 15 minutes later, no one truly dies until they truly die, but are they really dead? Scientists can’t tell.

Prior to the release of both Infinity War and Sherlock S4, both fandoms expected character deaths – specifically, conclusive ones that will propel the story forward, launching the storyline into a new era. However, none of that happened in both fandoms.

The Marvel fandom is well aware of the impending end of the original Avengers, both in-text and outside of it. Many have expected Tony Stark to die, and pass the mantle on to Peter Parker. Another theory is that Steve Rogers would die in Infinity War, passing on the mantle of Captain America to Bucky or Sam. These theories make sense both textually and metatextually. Steve and Tony’s arcs are both mostly complete – their trilogies are complete, and they both seem to have hit rock bottom by the end of CACW. Metatextually, RDJ is ageing out of Stark, and Chris Evans’ contract with Marvel is about to expire, with the fandom well aware of his plan to not renew it. It makes sense for the story to be passed on to characters who are still fresh enough to the audience, and can carry on the MCU.

However, Infinity War does the exact opposite – it kills off anyone who could further the universe. Stephen Strange and T’Challa both only have one standalone film out; they could easily carry their own trilogies well into the 2020s. In particular, with the critical acclaim of Black Panther, it makes no sense for T’Challa to die now. The Guardians of the Galaxy are not the most well-known Marvel characters, but they have made a name for themselves, and have an upcoming sequel. Not to mention Peter Parker, Marvel’s star superhero who has just returned to the Marvel Studios. He also has a sequel coming up in the Universe. There is no good reason why Marvel would kill him off at this point in the MCU.

Something similar happened to BBC Sherlock in Series 4. Characters who stand in the way of a story about Sherlock Holmes and John Watson just keep returning, seeming to hold back the development at every turn. Mary Morstan just will not go with a clean break.

While part of the original canon, for many, Mary Morstan is not important to the essence of the dynamics between Sherlock Holmes and John Watson. Many believe that for the show to continue to be about its titular character, for the story to carry on being a Sherlock Holmes story, Mary Morstan will have to literally or figuratively die, to be removed from the picture for the dynamics between John Watson and Sherlock Holmes to progress. Even Martin Freeman, who plays John Watson in the show, feeds the theory. While Mary Morstan supposedly dies in Series 4 Episode 1, much like the ash-deaths in Infinity War, her death is highly ambiguous and inconclusive. For one, her death is ostensibly the opposite of what the show says a killing shot to the chest looks like. Besides, Mary Morstan lingers in the following episodes. She still intrudes upon John’s life (The Lying Detective), and even narrates John and Sherlock’s actions (The Final Problem). Even if Mary is physically dead, narratively she is not. She retains control over John and Sherlock’s journey, leaving the story unable to move forward. I will further explore this below.

Of course, there is also Jim Moriarty. He has supposedly died six years ago, in Series 2 Episode 3 The Reichenbach Fall. However, he just keeps showing up again and again, intruding upon the story. His recurring not-dead has become so iconic that it even makes it into late night comedy shows:

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2. Suspended in Time

In both Infinity War and Sherlock, characters who should be removed from the scene to allow the story to move forward, do not get removed. These inexplicable and problematic deaths lead to the same problem: the story comes to a standstill. This applies to both the Avengers and John and Sherlock.

As explained above, Infinity War comes to an abrupt pause at the ending. Unlike past Avengers films, where the endings typically point to a general direction in the future for the team, the Avengers stand around, motionless, in the fields of Wakanda. Their fight was futile, and there is no way forward. Likewise in the Soul Realm, Thanos is condemned to live with his regret over Gamora, apparently endlessly, in a liminal space where time does not seem to exist. At the end of the film, everything freezes, and comes to a stop.

BBC Sherlock takes that to an even more literal level. With Mary Morstan and Jim Moriarty never truly dying, they maintain their control over the narrative. Mary narrates John and Sherlock’s actions at the end of The Final Problem, claiming possession of them as her ‘Baker Street boys’, and Jim coming back to round off the supposed end of a show titled Sherlock in a post-credit cameo. John and Sherlock, unable to bring their story forward, are literally suspended in a standstill:

[x]

With a freeze frame where the two are frozen mid-air, the final frame of The Final Problem highlights the issue at the end of both Sherlock S4 and Infinity War: when those who should die to move the story forward don’t die, the story cannot go on; it becomes caught in a stalemate.

3. You’re Not Exactly Wrong, But…

The MCU and Sherlock fandoms are prolific when it comes to fan theories. Before Infinity War, there have been several jokingly made fan theories that turn out quite close to the actual plot. For instance, there is the joke headcanon that Loki will pull the ‘transform into a snake’ trick on Thanos, when the latter comes to take the Tesseract. This is actually not a million miles off from Loki’s attempt to kill Thanos when he surrenders the Tesseract, only Loki does not live to tell the story in the film version.

Likewise, with Sherlock, many have proposed fan theories that are mostly just jokes. For instance, before S4 aired, some joked that Rosie Watson, John Watson’s baby daughter, is a bag of guns and money. While the show does show a real, human baby, the subtext also implies that the fan theory may not be entirely wrong. With the Oscar Wilde references, the show does say that, at least metaphorically, the baby is a gun.

4. Confused, Angry, Mourning

If the plots of Infinity War and Sherlock S4 are so similar in nature, you can expect the fan reaction to be somewhat identical as well. That is precisely what happened. Following the release of the new instalments, both fandoms are caught in a state of what I call ‘confused angry mourning’.

After The Final Problem and Infinity War, both fandoms were at a loss at what they just witnessed. What just happened? Both fandoms asked. What did we just witness? The death roll, the plotlines, they all shocked the fans. The fans also did not hesitate to tear the shows apart. Many have dressed down The Final Problem as something “filmed in a spray painted cardboard box held together with duct tape with a spare camcorder found in someone’s basement”, or a cheap Saw parody. The MCU fandom frankly aren’t any less savage when it comes to Infinity War. I have lost count of the number of times I have seen someone call Thanos a ‘giant grape’ (or other purple fruits). It would also appear that even Taika Waititi, director of Thor: Ragnarok (2017), is not too kind about the Infinity Gauntlet either:

[x]

And the fans were angry. They were angry at the futility of the characters’ strife. What was the point of Thor fighting so hard to preserve the population of Asgard, to save Heimdall, to save Loki, if all are just going to be thrown away in the first five minutes of Infinity War, leaving him with ‘nothing to lose’? What is the point of proving that Thor can demonstrate his powers without the Mjolnir, only to insert a plot point about him getting a battle axe? What is the point of Steve turning on the whole world to save Bucky, only to have Bucky wiped from the world by Thanos? What is the point of everything?

The Sherlock fans were just as angry. Series 4 defeated points made by the show itself in previous series, or what the showrunners said about the show. For instance, as mentioned above, while the show made a huge point in His Last Vow about how a killing shot to the chest does not look like what one would see in a Hollywood movie, that is exactly what happens to Mary Morstan in The Six Thatchers. The show’s treatment of Doyle’s The Adventure of the Three Garridebs is also the complete opposite of what Steven Moffat, one of the show’s writers, said about the original story. Even within Series 4 itself, the episodes were contradicting each other. At the end of The Lying Detective, John Watson gives a lengthy monologue about how ‘romantic entanglement’ would complete Sherlock as a person. That is quickly overturned in The Final Problem, where the argument appears to be filial love is what Sherlock needs. The list goes on and on.

On top of it all, the fans mourned. It is quite straightforward for the Marvel fandom – they mourned those who die or disappear. They mourn for Gamora, Bucky, Loki, Sam Wilson, and more. They mourned the futility of Thor’s struggles, and the little time Steve gets to spend with Bucky. For the Sherlock fandom, the mourning was a little more meta. They mourned the apparent descent into nonsense of their favourite show. For the Johnlockers, they mourn the apparent missed opportunity of canon Johnlock. Across the two fandoms, mourning reigned the immediate aftermath.

5. Going Backwards

Perhaps most alarming of all, the Sherlock fandom and the MCU fandom came to the same theory following their respective shows: we need to look at the shows backwards.

For the Sherlock side, this comes quite directly from the showrunners. Mark Gatiss, one of the writers for Sherlock, said that he had the cast read the script in reverse order during the first table-reads. From there, the fandom works The Six Thatchers backwards, trying to come up with a version that makes sense. For instance, some suggest that a reverse TST could support the Alibi Theory, the theory that the messy sequence of events in the episode is a cover story for John and/or Sherlock having killed Mary, rather than Vivian Norbury.

The MCU fandom came to this theory, impressively, with less input from the showrunners. For instance, there is the theory that ‘we’re looking at infinity war [sic] all backwards’. Their reasoning, similar to what I have argued above, is firstly that there is no sense in Infinity War killing off characters that carry future films, while letting characters played by those whose contracts are about to expire stay alive. Citing the power of the Soul Stone in the Marvel comics, the meta goes on to argue that for the universe (both in-text and the Cinematic Universe) to continue, it could depend on who got turned to ash, rather than who is remaining on earth, forming the new Avengers as they avenge themselves in the Soul Realm. Their fight against Thanos in the Soul Realm, they argue, could be the alternative Battle of New York that cemented the original Avengers.

It is interesting how in both fandoms, going backwards can explain and further both stories. The apparent finale in both Infinity War and Sherlock S4 are the beginning if we reverse the order. Incidentally, this ‘going backwards’ fits in nicely with John Yorke’s storytelling model, where to complete the story arc, you need to bring it back to the thesis, returning to the original theme, only now better negotiated and better tested.

6. Let the Conspiracy Begin

Beyond fan theories, beyond fan reactions, if there is one thing that ties the MCU fandom to the Sherlock fandom after Infinitiy War and Series 4, it is this: the conspiracy wall.

Sherlock is famous (or notorious) for its tie to the word and the concept of conspiracy. From plans to take down the government, to discussing conspiracy theorists, the show does not shy away from the topic. Within the fandom, there is even a subset of fans known as The Johnlock Conspiracy, or TJLC for short.

TJLC is perhaps best known for their many, many metas analysing the show. From the metaphors, subtextual symbols, to the lines and the soundtrack, TJLC thoroughly examines the show to find a clear overarching theme across episodes, across the ‘crime of the week’s. The showrunners of Sherlock appear to be aware of this theorising fanbase, writing them into the show via multiple proxies throughout the seasons, and even have Sherlock directly address ‘the heart of the conspiracy’ in The Abominable Bride (2016). In Series 4, the show even parodied the conspiracy wall scene from It’s Always Sunny In Philadelphia in one of its promotional pictures:

[x]

It would appear, that following Infinity War, the MCU fandom has turned into something akin to TJLC:

[x]

7. Missing Scenes

Above, I have outlined how key characters that were spotted on set of Infinity War are ostensibly missing in the final product: from the casting call for two-year-old twins, to the ostensible absence of Clint Barton and Scott Lang. In an interesting turn of events, MCU is not alone in mysterious absence of known scenes and content.

Following Sherlock S4, viewers have gone back to review known Setlock (behind the scenes) moments. They found many instances where content that were supposedly filmed for Series 4 are missing from the actual product. Most notably, during SDCC 2016, Benedict Cumberbatch said he had 29 pages worth of a monologue in the latest series; as many viewers will have noticed, that monologue does not appear in the show at all. Even his Shakespeare soliloquy in The Lying Detective is a heavily cut-down version; it could not have been the 29-page version that he talked about at the panel. Besides, overseas Setlock, such as what they filmed at Niagara Falls, also failed to make it into the final product.

Again, as I said above, it is perfectly normal for filmed content to be cut during post-production. However, based on the information available to the fandom regarding the filming process, Infinity War and Sherlock S4 will have cut out significant chunks – AIW will have removed two key characters, one of whom is carrying his own sequel following the premiere of Infinity War; on the other hand, the Sherlock crew will have deleted a significant monologue, as well as content specially made overseas.

#ThanosDemandsYourSilence

It is natural for showrunners to protect the plot of their unaired content. However, in the age of social media, people have far more reason to fear fellow fans spoiling the show, than the showrunners or the press themselves giving away major plot points. Hence, we see efforts to curtail fan spoilers. Shortly before the global premiere of Infinity War, Marvel Studios launched one last round of marketing. With the cast locked in interrogation rooms and Tom Holland’s mouth duct-taped shut, Marvel informs the world that Thanos demands your silence.

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As previously said, given the scale of the fandom and the content of Infinity War, it is no surprise that Marvel will do everything they can to ensure that everything is under wraps. However, the tone of the tweet and the hashtag reminds me of something…

On 13th and 14th January, 2017, with the premiere of Sherlock Series 4 Episode 3: The Final Problem on the horizon, the episode was leaked on a Russian website. The show, as expected, rushed to damage control on social media. In particular, there is the tweet from the official Sherlock account:

[x]

While the circumstances are different, I would argue that #KeepMeSpoilerFree is very similar to #ThanosDemandYourSilence in terms of tone.

Even though Infinity War and Sherlock S4 are hardly the final instalments, this secrecy certainly gives it an air of finality. Which leads me onto the final similarity across the two fandoms…

The End is Nigh

Thanks to what we know about the MCU, we know that Infinity War is not the final Avengers film; there is Infinity War Part II coming up. Similarly, thanks to Amy’s meta BBC Sherlock: A Drama in Five Acts, we know Sherlock Series 4 is not the final season. However, both shows did not shy away from creating a sense of finality in the promotional material.

Take, for instance, the trailers. Trailers for both Sherlock S4 and Infinity War keep hammering on the idea that this is their final chance, this is their last hope. The Sherlock trailer insists that, as opposed to the game being ‘on’, ‘it’s not a game anymore’. It reiterates that ‘everything they know will be tested, everyone they know is under threat’. Infinity War echoes these sentiments, asserting that ‘you will know what it’s like to lose’, that the fans will know what it is like ‘to feel so desperately that you’re right, but to fail all the same’. Most importantly, they ask: ‘where will you be when it all ends?’

The cast is all too keen to join in the hype. Chris Evans, when asked about Infinity War, says ‘it’s really gonna take the cake’. Which is, I would argue, very similar to what Amanda Abbington (Mary Morstan) says about Series 4 being something ‘groundbreaking’ that will make ‘television history’.

The similarities between Infinity War and Sherlock S4 seem farfetched or cherry-picked at first. However, when you consider how Sherlock S4 is also the fourth act in a five-act structure, the shared elements seem less like inter-fandom musings, and more like something dictated by the narrative structure.

This really will not be the first time Sherlock and the MCU mirror each other, though.

Author’s Notes:

If at certain point of this piece it reads like I am explaining TJLC to those who are not in the game, it is because well, originally that was the intention. This meta was originally attached to Don’t Mourn, which I linked to at the beginning of this piece. As advised by my two betas, I published this part separately because it was not too closely related to the main meta.

#my meta #sherlock meta #tjlc

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