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the-way-astray · 5 months ago

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The Keefe Sencen Infantilization Argument (because I've seen people say that saying he infantilizes Sophie is a bad-faith argument):

(Note: This post is a repost. I had my thoughts scattered out over a few posts, so I wanted to put them all together in one cohesive post. If you've already seen all the original posts, then aside from like two sentences being reworked and the format being better now, there's like nothing new here for you. Sorry.)

Examples of Keefe infantilizing Sophie and my explanations as to why this is infantilization and not okay:

Lodestar, chapter 4. What I originally said: “There you go, rocking the whole adorable-when-you’re-angry thing. I think that’s what I’ve missed about you the most.” Keefe infantilizes Sophie by saying she’s cute when she’s angry. She is trying to express her feelings, and all Keefe can do is be all Awwwwww. Isn’t that so cute? She’s angry! How adorable. It’s a form of invalidating someone’s feelings, by treating them like they’re just entertainment or by brushing them off like that. It’s some of the most manipulative behavior out there. It also saves Keefe from having to actually take Sophie’s feelings into account. His infantilization of her also shows up in his incessant need to protect her. It’s icky and gross, and authors should stop encouraging this behavior.

Sophie and Keefe are having a mental conversation and Keefe starts talking about Sophie's love triangle/square situation and Sophie doesn't want to talk about it. Not a fan of this, because Keefe butts into Sophie's personal business, then when she gets worked up, he heavily implies that he thinks it's cute. But this one isn't particularly bad compared to the others. Don't get me wrong, I still think this is infantilization, but the best I can say about it is it's not the worst example.

Lodestar, chapter 46. What I originally said: “You’re so cute when you worry, he told her.” More classic Keefe infantilization. He once again invalidates Sophie’s feelings by dumbing them down and acting like they’re this cute, quirky, inconsequential thing.

Sophie is obviously incredibly worried. Keefe clearly knows this. And his comment is to be like Yeah, but don't you know that makes you sooooo cute??? Like, sir.

Lodestar, chapter 65. What I originally said: “Is this going to be another one of those nights where you spend the whole time yelling at me to come home? Keefe asked, making her sit up straighter as his thoughts filled her head. Because as much as I love it when you get all feisty on me, now’s really not a good time.” God, Keefe is so subtly invalidating. He treats Sophie like she’s just his personal worry machine, not a person with valid concerns and ideas. The flippant way he talks about her worry for him makes me so mad. He takes her worry for granted and throws it back in her face, without a care for how it would affect her mental health. He brushes her off and invalidates her because he thinks he’s so much smarter than everyone else. Not to mention he calls her worry “feisty” and further infantilizes her feelings and ideas.

This one honestly stands alone. Context doesn't really do anything to it. The infantilization for all these quotes is in the quote itself, because it is invalidating to treat someone's outburst of negative emotions as entertainment. Keefe basically just says that he finds it cute when she insists he comes home because she's worried about him??? He's like, yeah, Sophie's worried about me, tearing up her mental health over me, but like. She gets feisty when that all becomes externalized and she begs me to come home! Again, it's just a way he's able to brush Sophie's feelings off and disregard her opinion entirely.

When I say Keefe acts like Sophie is his personal worry machine, I'm saying he acts like her worry only exists for his amusement. He doesn't see the deeper feelings behind that worry (or if he does, he certainly doesn't respect them), and only see it for what he sees it as: something cute and adorable.

Nightfall, chapter 24. What I originally said: “‘I know! Our little girl is growing up and getting so snarky!’ Keefe pretended to wipe his teary eyes. ‘I’ve never been so proud.’” “Our little girl” . . . that totally isn’t creepy or infantilizing at all. The way Keefe talks about Sophie here is genuinely so gross, even if it is a joke.

This is a joke. 100%. But it's a joke that sat very poorly with me because of the way Keefe verbalizes this. The problem for me is in the quote itself, again, because I feel like saying these sorts of things constantly is just so weird.

Nightfall, chapter 32. Wouldn't say what I originally said adds anything new, so I'm just gonna move past that. The larger problem here is 100% the fact that Keefe is clearly trying to joke to deflect Sophie's anger away. My argument isn't about that. My argument is that saying that someone's anger is adorable is textbook infantilization. In context, Keefe uses it as a way to deflect or joke. But the simple act of saying that is a form of invalidation where Sophie's emotions are made out to be some silly, inconsequential thing.

Anyway, about this quote in particular. Sophie is obviously freaking out, and she is clearly and seriously trying to tell him that his joking behavior is unacceptable. Keefe responds, not by listening at all to what Sophie said or what she's feeling, but by instead saying this. This invalidates Sophie's very real feelings as well as saves Keefe from having to confront what Sophie's telling him. And yes, this is a product of his deflection, but my point here is that saying someone's anger or worry is adorable or cute when they are trying to be serious is textbook infantilization, because it treats that opinion they have as a silly, child-like tantrum. "Awwww, isn't that anger adorable???" is what you say about a tantrum-throwing toddler who just got their favorite toy taken away, not someone your age presenting a valid, serious opinion. My issue is with the statement "Your anger/worry is adorable/cute" itself, not how Keefe uses it to deflect. It also presents Keefe, subtle as it may be, as the only one with valid opinions on things because Sophie's adorable little feelings get in the way of her rationality.

And before you say Sophie calls him out on this, yes, but he doesn't change. I'm not going to talk about it at length here, but Keefe apologizes to Sophie in the Nightfall scene after his bed rest more out of a desire to make up with her than a desire to change his bad habits. You can see this because he continues to do it into Unlocked.

Nightfall, chapter 34. Again, I don't think what I originally said adds anything relevant, so I'll skip that here.

The famous scene. I do admit that Sophie calls Keefe out this time. However, as I've already said, this doesn't stick, so it hardly matter. Keefe continues with this behavior through the series and into Unlocked, where he doesn't necessarily say these things out loud, but you can see he still thinks them.

Nightfall, chapter 70. What I originally said: “‘Much as I’m enjoying this sudden overflow of adorable Foster-rage—it’s not worth it.’” Ah, more of Keefe infantilizing Sophie and invalidating her feelings. If someone finds your anger or worry “adorable” and acts like it’s this cute little quirk, then that’s never a good thing. Especially if they enjoy it. Someone who cares about you should never enjoy seeing you angry or worried.

Sophie's having a serious, key word here is serious, discussion (we'll call it a discussion, even though that's not particularly correct) with Cassius, and even though her rage isn't aimed at him this time, Keefe telling Sophie her rage is adorable when she's being serious is still dumbing down her emotions to that of a toddler throwing a tantrum, not a grown-up (at least relative to Keefe) having a very valid reason to be angry. Just because he agrees with her anger, doesn't mean he can't still infantilize her.

Flashback, chapter 1, page 12. I think what I said in my original post just about sums it up: “‘You’re so adorable when you worry. I’ve told you that, right?’” (12) Yes, you have, and saying it more doesn’t make it any less icky and gross and infantilizing. It’s like he’s dumbing Sophie down to this object who only exists to entertain him with her adowabuw wittle feewings, instead of a person with very real, very complex emotions.

Keefe fans the air, so we have physical evidence he knows exactly how worried Sophie is. And his response is to be like, so cute! So adorable! Once again, this is serious, and Keefe is acting like Sophie's worry exists only to amuse or entertain him. I don't know else to communicate that that isn't a good thing. Someone being worried usually means they have something they're worrying about, worry doesn't just manifest out of thin air for entertainment's sake. Sophie also responds poorly to his writing her off, with what and the glare and all.

(Side note: When I was looking for that quote, I found a quote where Fitz says the exact same thing, I'm talking word-for-word "adorable when you worry" stuff. Like I mentioned in my disclaimers, I'm not saying he's more right for this and I'm not letting him off the hook. It's icky when Keefe does it and it's icky when Fitz does it. But I'm solely focused on Keefe, which is why I'm not bringing that up. It's also worth it to note that Fitz doesn't say this over and over again, the way Keefe does.)

Flashback, chapter 17, page 304. I think I'm just going to copy-paste exactly what I said in my original post because it's exactly what I'm trying to say: “‘Hear that, Ro?’ he interrupted. ‘She’s giving me her serious voice.’” (304) Another example of Keefe infantilizing Sophie and dumbing her feelings down for the sake of a joke. Awwww, isn’t her serious voice so cute? She only does that when she thinks she has something important to say to us grown-ups! Awwwwwww.

Apparently, people don't get why this is a bad thing, so: acting like someone isn't being serious when you can literally feel their emotions and know they're being serious just because you don't like what they're saying is not just invalidation, but infantilization, because you are dumbing their emotions and the complexities behind them down to that of a child attempting to be serious.

I'd also argue that this shows Keefe's true colors: he only really listens to her opinions and respects them when he agrees with them. Disagreeing with someone is all fine and good, but you can still respect the other person's opinion and not dumb it down and act like it's lesser than your own. If Keefe said "Sophie, I hear you, but I think you're wrong" (in Keefe jokester language, obviously, not word-for-word what I wrote) then I wouldn't call this infantilization, I'd call it respect. My problems arise from when Keefe acts like Sophie's opinions are stupid because Sophie is the one saying them with that adorable little pouty voice.

Flashback, chapter 21, page 355. What I originally said: “It’s always fun when you get feisty.” (355) I’ve said this about a gajillion times, but Keefe’s infantilization of Sophie is so horrific, it’s like he doesn’t care about her at all. He just sees her emotions as amusement for himself.

This is a sad scene, and Keefe has every right to be emotionally . . . off in this scene. But it still doesn't change the fact that he calls Sophie's anger "feistiness" and then says it's fun when she gets angry. You could say that's not exactly what he said, but it's likely that's what he meant given the past few quotes I've shown. Keefe has demonstrated a pattern of thinking Sophie's anger is amusing or adorable or fun. Anger is a negative emotion. When Sophie feels anger she doesn't feel good. And Keefe is like, yeah, but it's cute! Do you see how that's not the greatest thing to say? It says a lot about his internalized beliefs about Sophie, and is essentially confirmed by Unlocked. And even if that didn't represent the way he saw Sophie inside, that's still a really shitty thing to say because it still carries the invalidation.

Legacy, chapter 3, page 70. What I originally said: “‘Tell me why you have that cute little crease between your eyebrows.’” (70) You already know what I’m going to say. Keefe finding Sophie’s worry cute is textbook infantilization. But also, if he finds her worry and anger so adorable, what’s he gonna do when the Neverseen are defeated and Sophie doesn’t have as many things worrying her?

So, the crease between the eyebrows is obviously because of worry. So by saying he finds it cute, Keefe indirectly says he finds Sophie's worry cute, though I'm sure I don't have to spell that out because he's already flat out admitted he finds Sophie's worry cute several times. I'm going to sound like a broken record if I repeat what I've been saying this entire post about why this is infantilization, so instead I wanna talk about that last paragraph there. Keefe literally knows how queasy Sophie's worry can make her sometimes, and he has expressed this before, as well. So he knows exactly what Sophie's going through when she worries. And still, he acts like her worry is amusing, funny, cute, or otherwise a quirky little thing. I don't understand how Keefe can be so invalidating, having had firsthand experience with Sophie's emotions.

“But I was only half listening because she gets this cute little crinkle between her eyebrows when she’s trying to be serious, and it makes me want to reach up and smooth her forehead with my fingertip—and I’m betting she’d think I was super weird if I did that, since it’s not like she’s my . . . ” (Unlocked, very first paragraph of Keefe's diary entry, 481)

Don't have an e-book of Unlocked, unfortunately (boooooooo). So the context is that Keefe is giving us (or himself???) an intro to what he's doing here, which is writing about his drawings. He explains that Sophie gave him the idea and gives a general overview of what she said to convince him. Then he says this quote.

Here's what I said, which I stand by: I hate the way Keefe talks about Sophie. She’s just this soft, kind of ditzy, child-like sort of figure in his head. He admits that he doesn’t care what she has to say, he just cares about how adorable she looks while she says it. This is a textbook sign of a toxic relationship. You should care about what your partner/crush says, because that shows that you see them as a person, not as your personal cover model. Also “trying to be serious” paints Sophie as this impudent little child who’s trying to get the attention of the older, more experienced adults and it very much implies that Sophie is not serious, but awwww, look how cute she looks trying to be serious, isn’t it adorable? Except Keefe and Sophie are the same age. So this is another case of textbook infantilization.

Personally, I think I made it fairly clear why I think this is infantilization. Keefe did not listen to the latter half of what Sophie said because he was too busy imagining how adorable she must've looked as she said it. I don't know how to make it more clear that Keefe does not respect or care about Sophie's opinions. He did what she asked, sure, but he did not actually listen to her. Again, implying Sophie was not being serious when she was is infantilization. It takes away the weight of what Sophie is saying and makes it out to be a thing of like, Oh well, Sophie told me to, so I guess I'll humor her adorable little wishes and give it a shot, but let's get back to what's more important here, which is how cute she probably looks! I don't know how else to explain that that's not an attitude you want in someone who claims to listen to you and respect you.

Addressing some other things (Keefe calling Sophie herself cute [1], Keefe's deflection [2], Keefe praising Sophie's prowess [3], Sophie not seeming bothered [4], and The Real Problem [5]):

I don't think Keefe calling Sophie herself cute or adorable by itself is infantilization. That's just a cute, fluffy teenage crush. 100% cool with that. My problem is with Keefe dumbing Sophie's negative emotions that have complexities behind them down to something cute or inconsequential by calling them adorable. There's a quote in the diary entries where Keefe describes Sophie's blush as adorable and proceeds to describe it in vivid detail. I don't like it for personal taste reasons, but I would never argue that this is infantilization. Because. It's not. There is no dumbing down of emotions here, no shrugging off experience or maturity. There's just a kid with a crush.

As for Keefe's habit of deflecting stuff through jokes, yes, it's a flaw and yes, some of the times Keefe infantilizes Sophie, he's using it as a joke to deflect. Yes, that's the larger issue. But the point still stands that the way in which he thinks of Sophie's worry and anger is infantilization.

There are moments where Keefe talks nonstop (sometimes in a very unnatural way, in my opinion) about how powerful and amazing and brilliant and talented and spectacular Sophie is and how he respects her choices and whatnot. I don't see this as particularly contradictory to his infantilization. Keefe can dumb Sophie's emotions down to cute, inconsequential little playthings while also insisting that he thinks she's amazing and powerful. I do think he does think that she's incredibly talented, but he also invalidates or disrespects her choices because he sees her emotions as adorable and unserious. Sophie is objectively powerful and talented and smart, I'm not really sure how saying those clear facts out loud changes the fact that Keefe still sees Sophie as very juvenile in his head. He can respect her prowess and capacity for talent while still disrespecting her opinions and emotions. The two can coexist. This is why I say Keefe pedestalizes and infantilizes Sophie simultaneously.

As for saying this doesn't bother Sophie (except in that one instance where she glares at him), I'd hardly say it matters. People can be the object of toxic behavior without realizing it. Sophie doesn't really seem to care past a handful of seconds when Keefe reads her emotions without her permission (on purpose, with intention), but I think most of us would agree that that doesn't make it acceptable. And Keefe's infantile views of Sophie say more about him than they do Sophie, which is the argument I'm trying to make. My point is that Keefe sees Sophie's emotions as inconsequential little things that don't need to be taken into account. This is all mapped into how he sees her internally. Again, just because Sophie doesn't seem bothered by Keefe's comments, doesn't mean they're acceptable, especially considering it gives us a view into the way he truly sees Sophie. And if Keefe thinks of Sophie is such an invalidating way, how are we supposed to believe he'll respect her when she argues with him, instead of just writing it off as "that adorable rage"?

And last but not least (as this is literally the reason people are annoyed with Keefe, regardless of what flaw you're talking about): the infantilization isn't the problem. Not really. What the problem is is that it is never called out by the narrative and when it is, it lasts two seconds, doesn't stick, and Keefe continues with it having not learned a thing. He doesn't change, and I can give you a thousand explanations for why Keefe may be so prone to infantilizing Sophie based on his childhood, trauma, and everything else, but none of that is an excuse. And I'm certainly not a fan of the way we're constantly told that Keefe respects Sophie when he's clearly so ready to undermine her emotions or dumb them down. If you're going to have him say things like this, it should be understandable that it's not a good thing.

I think it all comes down to this: Imagine you were trying to get a very serious point across to someone or otherwise feeling very emotional over something and then you look over and the other person's reaction is like, Aw, you're so cute when you're all worked up trying to be serious! Anger so adorable! Worry so cute! I love it when you get feisty! Wouldn't you feel like they don't respect what you're saying? Is that not incredibly icky and weird?

Here is the definition of infantilization. I think it's very difficult to make an argument that Keefe is not doing this to Sophie. And if you think that's bad, oh boy, is it so. Much. Worse. In the actual Unlocked novella. It's very difficult to deny that Keefe only sees Sophie as an adorable little cute thing that amuses him when you read it. But I'll get there . . .

Anyway I'm leaving it off with this because these are the vibes I get from Keefe every time he makes an infantilizing comment about Sophie (minus the yelling, Keefe doesn't really yell):

#kotlc #kotlc discourse #anti keefe sencen #anti sokeefe #going to just copy-paste most of my tags from my original posts:#again feel free to debate and argue with me and stuff i love talking to people that love keefe/sokeefe #my inbox is always open for a fight and anon asks are always on if you're shy :)#but i do hope you come away from this at least UNDERSTANDING why i don't like it when keefe says things like this #i skimmed unlocked a few days ago and it's even worse in there yikes i'll get to it #bottom line is: keefe will always see sophie as more of his crush than as her own person with respectable feelings #<- and that's my hot take of the day #dropping this here and fleeing for the night. i'll return tomorrow or possibly never

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mohntilyet · 2 months ago

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i’m having illario dellamorte thoughts. what if instead of knowingly betraying lucanis he did it like, unknowingly. idk how this would work but i’m intrigued by what it gives us. illario ‘i accidentally caused my cousin’s death & can never tell anyone’ dellamorte. genuinely grieving. blaming himself. does he take advantage of the year before lucanis comes back?? does caterina still ignore him the whole time?? how different is the canon plotline once rook shows up with lucanis post-rescue…..

anyways i would love your thoughts!!

95% of what i do with illario operates on the idea that he is frighteningly competent so you can see why the way the crows plotline plays out in the game might frustrate me. it’s also this reason why i don’t actually think too much about “illario got lucanis killed, but didn’t mean to do it”, because i like the idea that everything illario does in his life is planned to the second and that he’s too well trained to mess up this badly, if that makes sense. with that being said. 5% of my brain power does sometimes go towards “and what if he just sucked actually” and it was a theory i enjoyed before the game even released. so i have in fact been thinking about this anyway LOL . maybe he tries to honeypot zara, accidentally actually reveals lucanis’ next assassination job, and zara gets rid of him as a ‘gift’. illario is horrified and that gets even worse when lucanis’ body shows up, and he assumes this must be because he spurned zara by leaving her and not having the guts to seize power.

i think we could make his inferiority complex worse. illario’s worst fear confirmed: he is as worthless as his grandmother believes he is, botching something so badly that he accidentally sentences his cousin to death when what he wanted was lucanis just… out of the way for a bit (maybe while he kills caterina. LOL. i still think his resentment of caterina trumps his jealousy for lucanis though those two things are very intertwined its hard for him to differentiate them). so incapable that he got the only person who actually supports him killed, and now he’s dreading the idea of becoming first talon. he doesn’t want first talon without lucanis backing him, and now the only person left is caterina which is suffocating and makes him even unhappier. at least he hadn’t lived through her alone, and now through consequences of his own decisions, illario has no choice but to.

i think that would affect his plans for talon because of how horribly he’d fucked up, and tries to mask it because if he suddenly actually doesn’t want to be talon that would be a red flag for everyone. lucanis coming back would delight him (talon is within his sights again if lucanis comes back!) and freak him out. i think the plotline would actually be pretty similar because of this freak out, so he still shows up to zara’s fight to cover his tracks. lucanis can never know, caterina can never know, because what little faith they have in him will be lost. like he committed fratricide and didn’t even MEAN to😭 ...corpse whispering still happens, and zara is like “ohhh that coward. he can never finish what he started, can he?” + “elaborate.” + “i gave him what he most wanted in the world and instead of being grateful, he ran away.” so lucanis finds out about what happened but feels a mix of “illario, you idiot” + pity because turns out he didn’t even mean for it to happen, and keeps his secret for now, otherwise he’d probably have to kill him.

i also think not meaning to kill lucanis would sour his feelings towards the venatori, who are a reminder of how badly he failed, so the alliance wouldn’t happen. this does mean if the story goes on as it does in canon, he has to take desperate measures another way and kidnap caterina for some other reason but i can’t think of why….. maybe a thing where illario is like “ok. lucanis is distracted by the elven gods. this time i just have to kill nonna for real and then nothing is in my way” and recruits disgraced houses or houses that don’t like caterina to do so? not sure tbh but i don’t believe caterina made it so far without making enemies lol. this would happen post bloodbath + corpse whispering— lucanis leaves his cousin unchecked because while he knows illario didn’t mean for him to die, he has no idea how far he would go to have caterina dead. teia could find out about this and send word to foil the kidnapping and assassination attempt

so ‘murder of crows’ is still about saving caterina, the illario-lucanis fight still happens, but it’s a little more hesitant and lots of “why won’t you just let me kill her? i’m doing this for the both of us”. he’s had to live with being the un-favorite, but never would have thought lucanis would actually pick caterina if it came down to it. with all of his missteps here, i think the final decision (and i think it should be like this in canon anyway) would be to imprison illario or kill him. imprisoning him is just a lot of “i can’t kill illario as much as he couldn’t kill me”, vs killing him as is expected from him as talon, and what he knew he would have to do after finding out about illario's failures. unlike canon, where illario is actually meaning to kill him and can be seen as a 'good crow' despite the sloppiness, here he's like. just bad at everything. the allied traitor houses that went against caterina would also have to be imprisoned or killed. no happy ending at all here, and lucanis still becomes first talon. now that i’ve written it out this is actually probably the worst ending LOL

the above sticks a lot to what is canon to the game (plot points, choices, etc) and i didn’t go very far away from it so it's like canon 3 inches to the left. tho my thoughts on this are not fleshed out* because i think illario works better as an antagonist character that sets things in motion !! not necessarily the villain in a cain-abel story, but a character who opposes lucanis while still not wanting to hurt him. that kind of discipline where he finds a way to get what he wants (first talon) without compromising what he also cares for (family) is so much more fun for me than a man who apparently just loses it and decides to enact a bad plan to get rid of his cousin. if he waited 20+ years to become talon i think he’d be more careful when it came down to it. if i had my way illario would be playing insane 5d chess to rival solas (insert black sails “i once thought that to lead, to be liked was just as good as feared. and that may very well be true. but to be both liked and feared all at once, is an entirely different state of being.”)

#*my thoughts are ‘not fleshed out’ but i still wrote all this. LOL #i nearly answered this ask with the companion-illario au from my mind because i think vg needed a companion that lies to you LOL #but thats less 'illario didnt mean to do it' and more 'oh illario did it and just feels so guilty he goes on a one man crusade #against the venatori because he needs an outlet and both of them are known as magekillers'#he would have lied for most of the game about how lucanis got kidnapped/'killed' and resolves it by saving lucanis + confessing his guilt #this au had elements of 'it was an accident' but i kept flip flopping between if i wanted that or not lol #because . idk. i like when he purposefully does all this and then regrets it. my walking contradiction (slash i want him)#illario guilt inferiority and jealousy you all mean so much to me #but yeah. last point relates to the envyllario rewrite also from my mind #the idea of like. that caution vanishing because of the envy demon is quite fun for me #so spite makes lucanis a victim to his own anger and sense of justice #while envy refuses to let illario maintain his veneer of charm and forces him to act rashly despite his planning #ok. i have to stop talking. thank u anon for this because i am always looking for an excuse to chat shit #prompt me at any point to speak about illario and i honest to god will just be sat here thinking #actually it was pretty bad a few days ago when i was thinking about ways it could go for him in my aus and drawing a blank #and had the very clear thought 'i NEED to put my thinking cap on' which was . a bit humiliating #illario dellamorte #long post #answered #anonymous

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rickybaby · 8 months ago

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Genuine question as I am curious — I know it’s pretty obvious with his expressions/ body language that Daniel seemed shy/insecure(?) about having his braces, but has he ever outright said anything about feeling that way with them? Just out of curiosity as I am new around here!

“I feel very different in terms of looks. Fortunately, experience also bought me better looks. I’m not really too fond of showing people photos of me when I was younger”

#well he doesn’t exactly say he was self-conscious of his braces but he was definitely very self-conscious about how he looked #it’s always very interesting to me the way Daniel talks about his younger self #it’s so different from how other f1 drivers talk about their early days #he’s so self-critical of younger him that I wish he was a bit more forgiving of younger him #the way he’s admitted he was never a standout talent during his karting days #that he was so hesitant to get involved in battles that his dad got mad at him #the way on the gypsy tales podcast he talks about Motocross riders being fearless and how he doesn’t have that until jase interrupts him -#to say how how mad he is because just a few days ago he was throwing a car around on a street circuit at some 300kph #the way in this video with will he describes himself walking into the paddock like a ‘headless chick’#the way he has said so many times he was scared to move away from home. how uncertain he was he would ever succeed #and then that one video towards the end of 2022 when he says ‘I was just Daniel then’ in reference to his younger self #like he has such a distinct way of looking at his younger self. like he views that part of him almost as a separate entity from the him now #and I guess that’s because it took a lot of work and years to build that confidence of becoming Daniel ricciardo #a confidence he got as he managed to survive the shark tank of the red bull junior academy #a confidence he got from beating his 4x wdc teammate. from winning the most insane races #and that confidence then getting completely decimated in the space of a few months in 2022 #and even now the more he says he is confident you can still see that tiny hesitancy #how every time he gets a good result you see how he yearns to lean back into his confident Daniel schtick #and he may just completely embrace it soon anyway <3 #daniel ricciardo #anon ask

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sealofarchives · 8 months ago

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Hello, could you do a Rottmnt headcanon of what kind of relationship Leo, Raph, Donnie and Mikey would be?

Headcanon: The reader might need 4 rings in the future since they couldn't decide on one turtle. (Requested prompt)

A/N: sorry for bringing up watt/pad again but, I did at least a couple of oneshots towards the reader in a poly relationship with the guys. So I had a bit of deja vu seeing this type of prompt again (probably around 5 years of writing) but anyway...

One last note: It was a bit difficult to understand the wording towards this particular ask. I already had some unpleasant interactions with "those fans" so I hesitated for a bit with this one.

So please double check your asks before sending it because I don't want to end up with another semi-hiatus because of asks that were out of my control...

If this isn't the kind of relationship you're into, then just skip this one.

Leo

He honestly wasn't expecting you to make the first move.

And tbh, he kept pacing around his room by the time the new feelings bonked him on the head. Like "Ooooh no... (Y/N)'s actually really really really cute..."

Surprisingly, he went to Splinter for advice. Part of his soul left his body when the rat man explained the importance of that special relationship in a lovey dovey manner. But, actually listened slowly realizing Splinter's previous relationships ended in failure. Especially with how things are with Splinter and Big Mama.

Its close to the end of the week when you suggest that idea to date all four of them. And you were very much taken back that he's okay with it. Though he can't promise not to be jealous from time to time. But, he and his brothers will make sure not to break your heart and will swear by it.

- More likely to do surprise visits (or alerting you with a text that he's dropping by for a few minutes. sometimes close to an hour or more if he's not really in the mood for a night patrol)

- Accidentally starts light hearted competitions with him and his brothers trying to impress you. He's still gonna be a showboat but tones it down the moment you pretend to ignore him.

- He's a bit insane and brave with the idea of wanting to meet your family members (the ones that you feel comfortable with). Or towards people that have been there for you in those darker times. Aside from April and his future self being close to a guardian figure to Casey Jr. And the brief time he and his family had with Karai, might be the reasons why he wants to reach out more. Mostly starting small though since the mental scar from the Krang and Shredder really changed him as a person.

Its usually Mikey or Donnie that challenge the red slider turtle to a friendly game on winning your affection. And when he's not feeling up to it, he just waits when Raph's turn is over and asks for your TLC (tender loving care).

Despite the horrors, he's still the same ol whiner. And will probably latch on to you with the most saddest eyes. That you're luckily immune to as you hold hands with one of his brothers for the start of the next week. Donnie has used a spray bottle with water at him and still does it even when its not his turn.

Raph

Very confused about the idea and trying to make sense of it.

It might be close to a few weeks where he finally understands. (mainly asking from April because his brothers can make it sound more confusing)

He hasn't really thought that much about the existential dread of the mutant/human relationship until seeing either Leo or Donnie silently anxious about it. Like the alligator snapping turtle is always more focused on keeping his family safe. And with you as a partner (and potential future spouse) being shared with him and the rest of his brothers. Mind Raph is pestering him even more just to say it out loud than just waiting for you to lead the relationship.

He'll eventually get used to it and given his oldest brother status. Takes it with ease being more patient compared to their high energy.

- Doesn't realize he acts like a "proper gentleman" (or gentleturtle as Donnie would say) when Raph opens the door for you while you're carrying boxes or something. Or offers to help you with the heavy lifting. Even Splinter calls him out on that behavior.

- When its his turn dating you, you get immediate "dibs" on everything. He plays very innocent with you but on his brothers. They always work together on a prank back at him for being annoying about it.

- Tends to look at your hands sometimes. He blushes thinking about how soft it feels around his face and lightly tracing around where its safe to touch his spiky shell.

While he always has good intentions, his brothers heavily hate the 'chaperone or third wheel checking in on the date idea'.

- It's mostly brought at least once a month and the trio usually try to tell you ahead of time before it happens again.

He'll be slightly grumpy whenever the trio share a single brain cell about a really stupid thing that he won't get.

- And he'll whine for a bit if you end up taking their side so, just take his side to save him from another wrinkle on his Raph chasm.

Donnie

He's silently making a fuss about it during the first month.

And a bit at himself, for waiting so long to ask you out. Before you went ahead with the bold move of "I don't want you guys to fight over me so... Is it okay if I date all four of you?"

It takes him a long while to get used to it. Or when Dr Feelings notices the softshell turtle not being open and honest about this relationship with you.

However once he's fully settled in, a very charming and laidback sort of relationship.

- I always get the vibe he uses 'dearest or darling' as his term of affection towards you. (His brothers used to tease him about it but, on days where bad luck decided to give this turtle a break and more on them. They're pleading for your help and whether you want to add fuel to that fire. That's on you)

- To me, he has that dramatic hopeless romantic energy. The only difference he pulls it off better than the dense couples in rom com movies/shows. With the amount of words he knows, at least a few or almost all of his compliments at you will send your heart into a flutter.

- At least every now and then, he'll try to dazzle you with something. Either one of his incredible inventions or surprising you with your favorite thing. (He'll boldly insist he was a step ahead getting it as a surprise. Even though his brothers actually chipped in to avoid another "The Purple Game" incident)

He sort of has a friendly rivalry with Leo on trying to make you laugh.

- If he starts to gloat about it, especially winning with the claim "Told you I was the funniest."

You kissing the softshell turtle's lips will instantly shut him down. use that power wisely

He unfortunately has jealousy issues by the time his turn is up.

- Like pretending to give the cold shoulder until you need help with something he's an expert at.

Mikey

Very much the mature one taking this relationship seriously.

Even though it took a few days with Donnie's help to get a better understanding of your idea of the poly relationship.

Dr Feelings and Dr Delicate Touch are working overtime because of these dumb dumbs sometimes.

Despite that, absolutely the sweetest turtle boyfriend. (and best future turtle husband material out of the four of them)

- While he has the Lou Jitsu charm, Mikey's bundle of sunshine is a whole another level. You can't help but, slowly break into a smile from his toothy grin.

- If you're the type who takes a long while to warm up to pda. He'll mostly stick to handholding and ask whenever you want a hug or kiss from him. (He's definitely more warm as a result of the mystic fire-based energy and ninpo that just naturally went with the flow towards him. So you sometimes fall asleep on his shoulder without realizing it)

- More likely to make any boring task you dread doing into a fun adventure. You both have matching hats from a previous grocery trip and pretended it was a mission from one of the Jupiter Jim comics.

His brothers were totally not jelly about it.

Very much tries to hide his embarrassment from his brothers suggesting 'better date ideas' to the best of his ability. He glared a few times at Raph with the chaperone idea. The usual youngest not getting along with the oldest brother sort of deal. So whenever you're around, the biggest sign is a strained smile on his face while lying that everything is okey-dokey.

- He almost clamped his shell shut when Splinter immediately disapproved the ideas with something even more embarrassing.

The only downside is he might go to some extreme lengths with how stubborn his brothers act.

- So you might need additional help from Splinter or April to prevent a new doctor persona along the lines of Dr Chaos.

#rottmnt x reader #leo x reader #rise leo x reader #raph x reader #rise raph x reader #donnie x reader #rise donnie x reader #mikey x reader #rise mikey x reader #I was supposed to post a few hours ago but ended up writing some au stuff (also rise related) a few days ago #its mostly just gonna be for fun but #I got excited through an anon ask about being inspired by an rise!au I saw for an upcoming dlc to a game I've been playing #and the person who responded was so nice ; w ;#I might post the basic summary of the 3 aus tomorrow but aaaaa I'm more excited to write and do some sketches now > w <

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louferrignojrofficial · 3 months ago

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They had my boy IMPRISONED 😩

#iykyk

#anon #ask #i know someone has made this post a few days ago that i reblogged so i’m not original at all

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sunsetsover · 23 days ago

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honestly you are so right with saying people condemn KB for being so toxic while praising FS for their "pure love" and sure they expressed the common concept of love more than KB cuz there were less stakes for Style so he was allowed to be more honest and open compared to Kant

BUT THEY ARE ALSO TOXIC

lets not forget how it started, Style was not forced Kant was ready to find another solution and then Style HIMSELF suggested the stupid car, and proceded to me an absolute menace to Fadel: he stalked, forcibly kissed and made fun of his support group all FOR A FAR

yeah sure he started to like Fadel in the process but it's hard to pinppint clearly when ut happend, smae for Fadel when did he start to like Style? I feel like tho for him is easier he was lonely and Style quenched that loneliness with attention, if Kant used lovebombing making him appear "fake" Style used annoyance to break Fadel which is as bad as all Kant did! but no people think he was "funny and charming" no babygirl he was being an ass and came closer to Fadel shoving a spatula in his neck and honestly I would not have faulted him that much, and as far as characters go Fadel I was more kind to cuz aside from the assassin thing he had to deal with Style which was a lot but yeah thw punch was a little overdoing it(especially after the sex if it was just a kiss and then the punch I feel it would have been less bad) even tho Style did crush his support group

but yeah people seem to forget all of that cuz they are now more "lovely dovely" and "true to themselves" and duh of course they are cuz Style is not being forced to do this cuz he has to protect his brother! and yes he was now dragged into knowing and is lying too but he doe not have the same stakes Kant has! so he can be more free, plus he is the most optimistic one of course he would believe things would patch up and they can road into the sunset together

anyway all of this paragraph was to say I agree with you and that FS enjoyers have rose tinted glasses on and only see the parts they want to see aka: Style and Fadel love eachother more and their feelings are true while Kant and Bison aren't it's only onesided Kant would literally bolt as soon as he can, failing to realize that it's meant to look like that cuz of circumstances and the 4 as characters SF are more honest and straightforward while KB are more calculating and guarded thats how they operate Bison himself has played a whole fucking chess game with Kant to see if he should actually date the guy Fadel folded the minute he got attention and thats the point! they are opposite to how they appear: Fadel stoic and meticulous on the outside while emotional and lonely on the inside, Bison fickle and reckless on the outside observant and calculating on the inside

it's just how they are and if you like a couple more thats fine you CAN(general you now talking to the KB haters FS enjoyers that feel called out) we are not saying KB are better cuz so and so you can love FS more it's the comparing and constant hate thats pissing us off, because it feels like you need to hate on KB to feel validated and that is shitty on so mamy levels, cuz you refuse to see the fucked up sides of FS only caring about what you WANT to care about disregarding the toxic parts which are inherent to the show and characters because spoilers they are did fucked up shit for one reason or another

so let people love and enjoy who they want, be it KB, FS or any other character and keep the hating to your blog or private and don't go into Kant and KB enjoyers blogs or inbox to try and change their ideas cuz it wont happen thanks to poorly expressed hate

sorry for this massive rant but sometime one need to express themselves

don't apologise, i can tell you've been holding this in and i KNOW this felt good af to get off your chest 😭😭

and i really don't have much to add, i agree with you! it just pisses me off sooooo bad when people try and moralise these characters/relationships and go around acting like fadel/style are 'better' or that kant/bison are 'worse'. like by what logic? bc babygirl i can argue this inside out. like ok sure everyone loves to talk abt kant spiking bison bc it was objectively the worst thing that any of them had done to each other (at least until the boat thing, which was very interesting to me bc i did see a surprising number of ppl being really harsh on bison abt that. which is funny bc he literally had no idea how deep that fear went or where it come from and also weren't we all excited for bison's revenge? where did that energy go?) (also thought it was funny as hell that the fs girls looooved to bring this up as proof that kb r sooooo toxic and bad for each other only to have fadel try to do the same thing to style in ep 7 😭)

but! i think it'd be wrong not to consider the intentions and motivations behind all these characters' actions. and in MY personal opinion, style's actions AND his motivations were much shittier than kant's at the beginning. kant's were more extreme, sure, but he is cornered and desperate and trying to keep himself out of prison so he can keep custody of babe (who he's been raising since a baby btw). style was acting like a compete dickhead to that man, stalking and harassing him, over a car. like literally doing the most so he could get a car. his best friend's car. which was like the only thing his dead father left him btw. (and ppl love to call kant a shitty friend too which, ok, the whole settling him up with a hitman thing without telling him thing was not great. but style KNOWS that's the only thing kant's dad left him and apparently keeps asking for it ANYWAY so he's hardly friend of the year if we're honest). and i know ppl these days rarely have the capacity to actually look at things that objectively and go 'ok this thing was bad but lets try and understand it in context' so i shouldn't really be surprised but it's still annoying !

anyway i've said it before and i'll say it again, i truly believe there's only two real reasons people hate on kant and kant specifically: either they aren't paying close enough attention and/or don't have the media literacy to fully understand his character and his motives (as seen by people thinking he was doing all of this for MONEY like bitch hello? open ur eyes?) OR they're just don't like him and are so biased against him they can't be objective and they're using anything they can to tear him apart even if that makes themselves look goofy in the process.

and listen to be real i've felt that way abt characters myself before so i'd be a hypocrite to sit here and go 'no! you must be fair and like all the characters!' bc sometimes you just can't and your inner hater is just stronger and that's fine! i get it! but what i do have a problem with is people then projecting that hate outwards and being like 'um actually ☝️ he is a bad character who doesn't gaf about anyone but himself and none of his feelings are real and he's faking literally everything and him and bison shouldn't even end up together' bc its like. bitch you just made that up in your head!

like there is just so much nuance and depth to all these characters and they're so fun to sink your teeth into and i get that not everyone likes to consume shows like that and wanna see everything surface level which ok fine if that's your prerogative. but like. i feel like kant is not THAT difficult a character to understand. the police have him by the balls. he's got a baby brother to protect. he'd do whatever it takes to protect him. it's literally all there in episode one??

but tbf i have seen a lot more sympathy for kant after episode 7 (and like i said a lot more hostility towards bison than i would have expected. which is not a lot by any means but still a lot more than i would have thought) which is great! we love that! but i just don't get why it took so long. or i do tbh but that doesn't make me feel any better. like apparently media needs to spell everything out for us these days. apparently if a character isn't screaming crying throwing up and expressly spelling out their emotions in words they don't have any.

anyway moral of the story is that all of these people crying out for toxic yaoi are liars and that i WILL be gatekeeping kant from all these turncoats who wanna switch up now !

💞

#ask #anon #apparently i had more to say than i thought i did #also sorry this took me a few days to get to ! i meant to answer this days ago i just forgot lmao

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