#thidrekssaga

[gawrkin]

Dietrich also lives all the way to King Arthur's reign - the historical Theodoric dies 527 - and once tried to marry his daughter, Hilde. But then the Mordred/Tristan/Lancelot thing happened instead where Hilde ran off instead with Dietrich's nephew, Herbart. Unlike Mark and Arthur, Dietrich was like "nah" and moves on.

Callout post to Dietrich Von Bern/Theodoric the Great/Tidrik Tattneson/Whatever his name even is

For being so ridiculously Extra™ all the fucking time.

I mean, seriously. He needs to fucking chill.

Spends thirty fucking years in exile. There’s no actual historical reason why he should ever go into exile.

Uses the exile thing as an excues to chill at Attila’s court apparently for years on end. Like. Attila the Hun. That is not how history works, Dietrich. You’re like chilling with a ghost, Dietrich.

Probably never even payed Attila the Ghost the rent, let’s be real. For years. Well, unless you count marrying his wife’s niece as paying the rent or something, I guess.

Fought with the Burgundians. Then fought against the Burgundians. Then went and fought the Burgundians some more. Just leave the Burgundians alone, Dietrich. They’re ghosts, too. Let them rest in peace.

Defeated Siegfried (like, Fafnir’s bane Siegfried, skin of horn Siegfried, you don’t  just defeat Siegfried Siegfried, Siegfried the… well, okay, that Siegfried) at least twice. At least.

Fights dwarves. Like, why. What kind of hero runs around fighting dwarves.

Fights giants, too. Which sounds more normal, but- like, I don’t mean to kinkshame but, do you have some sort of size kink when it comes to fighting, Dietrich.

(Keeps getting imprisoned by giants, by the way. Maybe it’s better if you just go back to fighting dwarves, Dietrich.)

Also fights wild men. Who are, like, men who run around in the wild. They wander into the woods and they are hairy and want to fight, basically. If this doesn’t prove Dietrich will just fight anyone, I don’t know what does.

Can turn into a goddamn dragon to breathe fire.

Can apparently breathe fire even without turning into a dragon. Which means he just turns into a dragon because that’s cooler. I told you he was fucking  Extra™.

Still fights dragons, though. What a hypocrite. (And possible cultural appropriator? *dramatic music plays in the background*)

Literally doesn’t die. Like. He just doesn’t. Because death is not cool enough for him, probably.

Instead, the Devil himself turns into a very cool and totally metal giant black horse from Hell, gets Dietrich to ride him, basically kidnaps him, and then drops him into Mount Etna to let him fall directly into the entrance of Hell. 

Either that, or Satan the Cool Horse drags him to some desert somewhere (or was it Romagna…? My Italian ass wants some answers, Dietrich!) and makes him fight dragons until the end of the world.

He stills finds time to lead the Wild Hunt, though. Which is actually the least  Extra™ thing he’s ever done, all things considered, since pretty much every single mythological/legendary figure ends up leading the Wild Hunt at some point in their life or death or un-death.

Constantly appears in pretty much every single Germanic or Norse poem, saga, or legend. No, seriously, he’s everywhere. You take a look around yourself, you’re surrounded by an army of Dietrichs von Bern.

By the way, he’s probably right behind you in this very moment. Just don’t make him angry enough to breathe fire at you and everything should be okay.

[gawrkin]

(Source: Myths and Legends of the Middle Ages, by H. A. Gueber)

OVERPROTECTIVE DAD ARTHUR, Y'ALL

[setrija-nibelungenfangirl]

Day 14

Favorite “alternative version” (Norse sagas, Wagner’s Ring Cycle, Danish ballads etc.)

My favourite alternative version is the Thidrekssaga. It’s familiar enough to have the same basic plot (Sigurd dies and Grimhild takes revenge on her family which journeys to King Attila’s court), but it’s also very different. Högni is also an even bigger bastard in this version: he straight up kills the sea women after their prophecy and kills the ferry man in front of all the other Niflungen.

One favourite little scene of mine is Gunnar calling out Högni after he kills the ferry man: “Nur Böses kannst du tun, jetzt wie immer. Du bist nur vergnügt, wenn du Böses tust.“ (You can only do evil, now as always. You are only happy when you do evil.) and Högni responding with: „Warum soll ich damit sparen, auf unserer Fahrt Böses zu tun? Ich weiß genau, daß keine Seele heimkehrt von uns.“ (Why should I save doing evil on our journey? I know for certain that not a soul will return home from us.)

Högni’s death in the Atlakviða – him laughing while his heart gets cut out – is also a straight up metal moment.

[seewetter]

Mythic Creatures by Culture & Region

Part 6: Medieval Europe

Global list & overview here.

This list still needs revising, because I didn't distinguish French, German, Italian and Spanish folklore (Catalan folklore is independent, because I support Catalonian independence haha). Some European folklore has already been listed in part 3 and 4 and 5 or will be listed in future in connection with religious culture.

Here are some links to websites with European creatures that I didn't all list: https://bestiary.ca/beasts/beastalphashort.htm

Medieval Europe Fish: http://www.godecookery.com/ffissh/ffissh.htm

Medieval Europe Plants: http://www.godecookery.com/mythical/mythical.htm

Abyzou; Aegipan in medieval bestiaries, based on Pliny the Elder; Aitvaras from Lithuania; Alberich in Thidrekssaga written in 1250 in Norway, possibly based on a Plattdeutsch original (also appears in German Nibelungenlied from 1200 in Passau, Bavaria and Ortnit from 1230s Germany, Strassburg; Alerion only 1 pair of these birds exists at a time, bestiaries and heraldry; Alp German; Alphyn; Amadís de Gaula made some time before 1508, contains the giant Endriago, a monster born of incest who exhales a poisonous gas and whose body is covered in scales and Urganda the Unknown: Sorceress who protects Amadís; Amphiptere, word is Greek, found on French coats of arms between 1300 and French Revolution. Possibly found in medieval bestiaries as an African animal (anhinga)? Winged snakes of Arthurian legend. Terrible Wikipedia page.; Anguane Italy; Anjana Spain; Antichthones; Arquetu; Askafroa German "Eschenfrau"; Aspidochelone referenced as Jasconius; Atlantes (sorcerer); Aufhocker; Augenbrand;

Badalisc; Bahkauv Aachen; Balaur Romanian, multi-headed dragon; Baldanders; Baphomet; Barabao; Barnacle Goose; Barstuk; Basilisk; Beast of Gévaudan; Beerwolf; Befana; Belsnickel; Bergmanli; Bergmönch; Bicorn; Bieresel; Big Ghoul (dragon); Biscione; Bishop Fish 2 visits, 1 in 1531; Bisterne Dragon; Black Dog; Black Panther; Blemmyes; Blue Ben; Blue Lady of Verdala Palace; Bonnacon (Pliny the Elder); Borda; Bragmanni; Brazen Head; Broxa; Bucentaur; Buckriders North Belgian and South Dutch; Buschgrossmutter; Buschweibchen; Butatsch Cun Ilgs; Butzemann;

Caballucos del Diablu; Caelia; Caladrius; Careto; Cerastes; Cheval Gauvin; Cheval Mallet; Chichevache; Chromandi; Cinnamologus; Coco; Cocollona; Cola Pesce; Crocotta; Cuegle; Cuélebre; Cynocephali;

Dahu; Dahut; Dames Blanches; Dames Vertes; Death; Demoiselles Blanches; Dipsa; Dolphin; Doñas de fuera; Drac; Draconcopedes; Dragon; Dragon of Beowulf; Dragon of Mordiford; Dragons of St. Leonard's forest; Drake; Drapé; Drude; Duende; Dwarf ; Dwarfs, Dwarves;

Easter Bunny; Ekke Nekkepenn; Elegast; Elemental; Elwetritsch; Emmet Giant Ant; Enchanted Moura; Enfield; Erchitu; Erdhenne; Erdluitle; Erlking; Ewiger Jäger;

Fáfnir; Familiar; Fänggen; Farfadet ; Farfadets; Fasolt; Fates; Father Frost; Fées; Feldgeister; Ferragut; Feuermann; Fish-man of Lierganes; Follet; Folletti; Frau Holle; Frau Holunder; French Mythic Creatures and Saints; Freybug;

Gabija; Galehaut; Galgemännlein; Ganna; Gargoyle; Gatipedro; Gayant; Gegenees; Giane; Glatisant; Gnome; Goblin ; Goblins; Golden Goose; Goldenhorn; Gorgades; Graoully; Guajona; Gudrun; Guivre; Gütel;

Hans von Trotha; Haymon (giant); Headless Horseman; Heimchen; Heinrich von Winkelried; Heinzelmännchen; Hercinia; Hey-Hey Men; Hinzelmann; Hircocervus also Greek & Roman; Hödekin; Homunculus ; Homunculi; Houles fairies;

Ichneumon; Irrwurz;

Jaculus; Jean de l'Ours;

Karnabo; Ķekatnieki Latvian mask processions; King Goldemar; King Laurin; Klabautermann; Klagmuhme; Knecht Ruprecht; Knight of the Swan; Knights of Ålleberg; Kobold; Kornbock; Korred Iberia, Britanny, Cornwall; Krampus; Kurents (Slovene mask processions);

La Encantada; Laima; Lampetho possibly based on Roman accounts of Lampedo; Lauma; Laúru; Legendary Horses in the Jura; Legendary Horses of Pas-de-Calais; Leontophone; Lepus cornutus; Lietuvēns; Lindwurm; Loch Ness Monster; Lou Carcolh; Lucius Tiberies (vs King Arthur); Lutin; Lutins Noirs; Lutzelfrau; Lycaon; Lyncetti;

Machlyes; Mahound; Mandragora; Manticore; Marabbecca; Mare; Massarioli; Muscaliet; Musimon; Myrmecoleon; Nachtkrapp; Nachzehrer; Naimon; Matagot; Mazapégul; Melusine; Monaciello ; Monacielli; Monopod; Moss People; Mouros;

Nimue; Nixen aka Nixie ; Nixies; Norggen;

Ojáncanu; Oksoko (3 headed eagle in heraldry & 3 headed bird in alchemical texts); Ork; Orphan Bird; Ortnit; Ouroubou;

Pamarindo; Pandi; Pantheon_the_creature; Panther; Pard; Peluda; Perchta; Père Fouettard; Petermännchen; Phoenix; Picolaton; Púca;

Quiet Folk; Quinotaur;

Ramidreju; Rasselbock; Revenant; Reynard; River Women; Rougarou; Rüdiger von Bechelaren; Rumpelstiltskin;

Salamander; Salvanel ; Salvanelli; Salvani; Sandman; Santa Compaña; Satyrus; Schrat also Slavic; Sciritae; Scitalis; Sea-Griffin; Sea-Lion; Sebile; Selige Fräulein; Serván; Sheela na Gig; Skrat; Straw Bear; Strix; Struthopodes; Swan Maiden; Syrbotae;

Tarand; Tarasque; Tatzelwurm; Termagant; The Devil Whale broad category, includes modern accounts and Sindbad; The Imp Prince; The Legend of Ero of Armenteira; The Nixie of the Mill-Pond; The Prince Who Wanted to See the World; The Swan Queen; Theow; Thyrsus (giant); Tooth Fairy; Trasgo; Tree Elves; Trenti; Türst; Tyger;

Uhaml;

Vegetable Lamb of Tartary; Venediger Männlein; Ventolín;

Weiße Frauen; Werewolf; White Lady ; White Ladies (fae); Wichtel; Wiedergänger; Wight; Wild Hunt; Wild Man, Wild Woman ; Wild Men, Wild Women; Wind Folletti; Witege; Witte Wiver; Wolpertinger; Wolves in heraldry (search wiki page for word calopus);

Xana;

Yale; Ypotryll;

Žaltys Lithuanian;

allegedly medieval

Lorelei; Rompo; Squasc

Belgium

Druon Antigoon; Lange Wapper; Zitiron

Brittany

Amadís de Gaula (Gaula, the fictional part of Brittany); Ankou; Bugul Noz; Fions; Groac'h; Iannic-ann-ôd; Jetins; Korred; Korrigan ; Korrigans; Les Lavandières; Malo (saint); Margot the fairy; Morgen; Morvarc'h; Tréo-Fall; Yan-gant-y-tan

Byzantium

Abyzou; Gello

Catalan

Aloja; Banyoles monster; Catalan Creatures; Comte Arnau; Dip; Home dels nassos; La Guita Xica; Marraco; Minairó; Muladona; Negret; Nitus; Pesanta

Celtic mainland

Dusios Gaul (known through Greek, Roman and medieval sources); Les Lavandières; Púca; Sovereignty goddess also Irish; Swan Maiden; Trasgo; Werewolf

Dutch

Alven; Ellert and Brammert (giants); Kabouter; Swan Maiden; Witte Wieven

Estonia

Akka, also Finland and Sami; Dragon of the North; Ebajalg; Estonian Creatures; Kalevipoeg; Kratt ; Kratid; Maa-alused; Skrat; Toell the Great; Vanapagan

Finland

Aino; Ajatar; Akka, also Sami and Estonian; Antero Vipunen; Etiäinen; Firefox; Haltija; Heikki Lunta; Hiisi; Iku-Turso; Lemminkäinen; Lempo; Maanväki; Menninkäinen; Nine Diseases; Nuuttipukki; Otso; Paasselkä devils; Piru; Soul Components_Finnic Paganism; Swan Maiden; Syöjätär; Tapio; Vellamo

Germanic

Albruna Germanic seeress attested by Tacitus; Cimbrian seeresses mentioned by Strabo; Gambara; Ganna; Hooded Spirits; Idis; Matres and Matronae; Plusso Wendish = Slavs of North Germany; Swan Maiden; The Woman of the Chatti; Thiota; Veleda; Waluburg; Wurm

Roma

Mullo; Ursitory; Vampire pumpkins and watermelons

Sami

Akka also Finland and Estonia; Ruohtta; Stallo; The Elf Maiden;

Venice

Winged Lion (St. Mark), Venediger Männlein (allegedly from Venice, not on Wikipedia)

Renaissance

Allocamelus in Edward Topsell and among English companies; Hippogriff; Hircocervus in Edward Topsell, based on earlier sources; Ipotane first attested with John de Mandeville; Irrwurz; Jenny Haniver; Lampago maybe medieval not renaissance???; Lepus cornutus; Lizard Fairy; Mephistopheles; Oberon; Orgoglio; Pier Gerlofs Donia; Pyewacket (familiar spirit); Queen Mab; Satyress; Sea Monk; Succarath; Sylph; Teutobochus; Three Witches; Titania; Undine ; Undines; Vegetable Lamb of Tartary; Werewolf; Wild Man, Wild Woman ; Wild Men, Wild Women

Enlightenment

Jacques St. Germain; Terrible Monster maybe real??? Romanticism; Lorelei; Warlock

Notify me please if there are mistakes or if these beings should have a disclaimer not to be used in art or fiction writing.

[hintonposting]

Jokes aside, there's a place for this sort of thing in the epics. A pretty good matchup is Sigurd/Siegfried from the saga of the Volsungs - or the mainland German equivalent, the Nibelungenlied, and various folktales - and Achilles of the Illiad. Both have invulnerability to conventional weapons outside of their single weak point, and I'd say comparable combat experience. Now, both have anti-feats against their durability, with Achilles being significantly worse. There are older versions of the Achilles tale where his common invulnerability isn't present; and in Thidrekssaga, Sigurd's skin is only as hard as a "horn" and he is able to be cut by the legendary sword Mimung.

Personally - even if we ignore both these anti-feats, which give Sigurd the advantage - I'm inclined to say Sigurd still seems to win out just based on his loadout (a cloak of invisibility, and the legendary sword Gram granted to his bloodline by Odin) and stats (towering over the average man and having near-incomparable strength). Still, there's probably arguments to be made in Achilles favor from looking over his sources.

I think it would be funny if like classic literature nerds power scaled the protagonists the way comic book and manga nerds do or like had arguments about who would win in a fight between the Bennet sisters from Pride & Prejudice and The March Sisters from Little Women.

[illustratus]

Dietrich (Thidrek) and Siegfried (Sigurd) from a 15th-century manuscript of the Rosengarten zu Worms

[jeffreystewart]

Norsery Rhymes from A to Z Fassolt, Of the Thuderstorms Well here we are on another ThorsDay with another 20 min sketch of a Norse (and Germanic, sometimes Celtic) mythological characters.  This week it’s a thrid and final version of Fasolt / Fasult / Fasold / Vasolt  of the Jotnar (Jötunn / Jotun / Jotunn / Jetten / Eoten / Frost Giant  mentioned in the the Thidrekssaga, and Eckenlied, but most notably in Wagner’s Das Reingold.

Fasolt, possibly from the Old Norse “faso” meaning ‘long braids’, is also translated to mean ‘killed by Fafnir’.

Fasolt is a frost giant and brother of Ecke and Fafnir. He is called on as the ‘Master of the Thunderstorm’ in charms of protection from the wind and lightning of storms.

Occasionally associated with Kari the Giant of the winds.

Fasolt and Fafnir had been contracted by the gods to build the castle of Valhalla for them. All for the price of large amounts of gold, and the hand of Freia (Freya and Idun) in marriage for Fasolt, and an endless supply of her golden apples of youth for Fafnir. 

However on completion Odin refuses to give them Freia. Fasolt while building the castle has fallen in love with Freia and can’t bear to be without her, and Fafnir wants her golden apples. They plot and kidnap her.  But in the end accept a hoard of gold from Odin. Fasolt after seeing Freia does not love him back and not wishing her to be harmed begs and convinces Fafnir to accept this new offer. The hoard had previously belonged to the Dwarf Albrecht, which has amongst it a cursed ring and gold, that drives those to greed and violence to possess it. 

Soon after getting the treasure it drives Fafnir mad and in his greed he kills Fasolt for the ring and treasure.

[skyeventide]

HERE WE GO

what is the nibelungs' legend anyway? probably an oral re-elaboration of events that befell the burgunds around 453-36, when they expanded into the roman province of the belgica, where they were defeated by aetius and a fuckton of them died. the part about many of them dying, and then being deported into a new enclave, is relevant. the working of this defeat into a legend was probably a method to re-establish a political and judiciary autonomy. the original core of the legend was widened with additions, new versions, overlapping of versions and characters

what's the original nibelungs legend? we don't have it. it likely would have been a manuscript in old high german derived from the oral tradition — which is the likely basis for the version in latin hexametres, the waltharius. more on that later.

what do we have? an anglo-saxon tradition (waldere, based on the waltharius, widsith, deor, and traces in beowulf), a middle german tradition (the actual nibelungenlied poem, plus diu klage aka the lament of the nibelungs, and lied vom hürnen seyfrid, plus other minor things), and a very voluminous norse tradition (15 works inside the poetic edda, a section in the prose edda, the thidrekssaga af bern, the völsungasaga, and the nornagests tháttr). these are the big ones, the german being the result of a courtly setting, the norse closer to pre-feudal and linked to clan relations.

big characters: Siegfried/Sigurd, princess Kriemhild/Gudhrun, King Gunther/Gunnar, the dragon (unnamed, or Fáfnir, or Reginn), the dwarf smith (Reginn, or Mimir), the dwarf owner or guard of the treasure (Alberich or Andvari), Attila/Etzel, queen Brunhild/the valkyrie Brynhildr (or Sigrdrífa), Hagen von Tronje/Högni (either counsellor or brother of Gunther/Gunnar), king Dietrich of the Visigoths/Thidrekr

so... WHERE SHOULD YOU START

probably with The Nibelungenlied → probably composed in the austrian-bavarian court of passau between 1100 and 1200. courtly atmosphere. a lot of surviving manuscripts (11 complete versions on 35 manuscripts). this version will have the entire classic story of Siegfried, who here is an arrogant prince of Xanten, however it will not have the story of Siegfried killing the dragon, which is summarised by Hagen upon his arrival to Worms, in the kingdom of the burgunds. nor does Siegfried gain the treasure from the dragon. Siegfried wishing to marry princess Kriemhild prompts king Gunther to ask for help with gainin queen Brunhild of Iceland as his own spouse. this theme remains throughout the various versions; what's specific to the nibelungenlied is that Brunhild seems to act as though she knows Siegfriend, which is not explained here, but becomes a clear plot point in the norse tradition. later on, Brunhild also disappears from the scene after the death of Siegfried with no explanation, whereas in the norse tradition she kills herself. another peculiarity of this version is that Brunhild resists the sexual approaches of her new husband Gunther, and Siegfried has to once again help the king by donning an invisibility cap (also exclusive to this version) and "taming" Brunhild for Gunther. the sexual assault theme is only present here and in the Thidrekssaga af Bern. another significant difference from the norse versions is that the story is sympathetic towards the figure of the king of the Huns, Etzel/Attila, and that Kriemhild's vengeance for Siegfried's death focuses on her own brothers: king Gunther and other two guys, Gernot and Giselher, plus on Hagen, the killer of Siegfried. after Kriemhild has taken her revenge, she is in turn killed by Dietrich, who was king of the visigoths and now vassal of Etzel, and she's killed specifically for having taken vengeance of her own volition, as a woman, thereby breaking chivalric rules. we know nothing of Etzel's fate.

which means you can complete the story of the Nibelungenlied by reading Diu Klage next → the lament of the nibelungs completes the previous tradition with a more explicitly christian version of Attila/Etzel's fate. Etzel repents from his paganism, the dead are mourned, and Etzel's vassals abandon him to torment and eventual madness. the death of all the burgunds is unforgivable in the eyes of the author. Kriemhild's death at the hand of Dietrich is also condemned, and Kriemhild herself is absolved of responsibility for her legitimate vengeance over her husband's Siegfried death and the theft of the treasure. Hagen, killer of Siegfried and thief of the treasure that was guarded by the dwarf Alberich, is unilaterally condemned.

if you want the dragon stories, you can read the Lied Vom Hürnen Seyfrid → 179 stanzas that survived only in late printed versions, no manuscripts exist. very popular, reworked into a longer prose version in 1657 and a continuation in 1660. used for nationalistic purposes since 1500. it has some influences of the norse versions (apprenticeship with a dwarf and obscure origins of Siegfried) but it lacks the character of Brunhild, partially absorbed by Kriemhild. this version has TWO dragons: the one that gives Siegfried invulnerability, and a man transformed into a dragon during a hunting trip (likely a reception of the nordic story of Fáfnir, see below), which also keeps Kriemhild prisoner. here, Siegfried obtains invulnerability and the treasure through the death of this dragon. it's Siegfried himself who throws the treasure in the Rhine, and Hagen kills him due to envy and enmity between him and Gunther. yes, the title translates either as "song of horn-skinned siegfried" or "song of siegfried of the horny skin", make of that what you will.

then you can continue with The Völsungasaga → this is the other crucial document, this time from the norse tradition, that gives us the full story, though with some consistent differences compared to the Nibelungenlied. a prose work in 44 chapters, whose oldest manuscript is from 1300-1400, though probably composed around the middle of 1200. the text is mostly a dynastic celebration for the royals of norway, meaning it tries to reconstruct the legendary origin of the volsungs, which is to say Sigurd's family (Sigurd is Siegfried in the norse tradition). Sigurd has obscure origins, though he is son of the widowed queen, and is raised by the dwarf smith Reginn. here we have a full story of the origin of the treasure, which originally belonged to the dwarf Andvari (including the magic ring that produces gold, Andvaranautr). a completely different version to the Nibelungenlied, where Siegfried obtains the treasure by wrongly arbitrating a dispute, killing the two contenders, and taking their riches. here, Loki extorted the treasure from Andvari, who cursed it, causing a chain of deaths that leads to Reginn's brother, Fáfnir, to try guarding it for himself in dragon form. whereas in the Nibelungenlied Siegfried gains invulnerability by bathing in the dragon's blood (except for one crucial spot between the shoulder blades), here Sigurd tastes the blood and learns the ability to understand the language of birds. he then rides on until he finds the sleeping valkyrie Brynhildr in a castle surrounded by shining shields. Sigurd wakes her and they exchange promises of love and marriage, plus she teaches him some knowledge of runes. and here is explained why Brunhild knows Siegfried in the Nibelungenlied, in a clear mix of traditions. this tradition doesn't present themes of sexual assault, though king Gunnar must still use Sigurd's help to gain Brynhildr as a wife, with subsequent feelings of betrayal on her part for Sigurd's behaviour (he was made to forget her with a potion). in this tradition, Brynhildr causing Sigurd's death is also what leads her to kill herself afterwards. Gudhrun (the norse Kriemhild) is forced to accept Atli/Attila's marriage proposal after Sigurd's death, and here Attila is only interested in Gudhrun's conspicuous inheritance, which is to say Andvari's treasure. it's Attila who kills her brothers, and it's against him that she seeks vengeance, by feeding him their sons and then killing him.

Gudhrun goes on to be involved in further stories about the gothic king Ermanaric.

the entire thing, in poetry and focusing on main episodes, can be found in the Poetic Edda → the latter 15 poems focus on the nibelungs' legend, with much more attention granted to Brynhildr's love drama and betrayal. poem 15 is a summary of the entire legend, poems 16-18 narrate the story of Reginn and his brother-dragon Fáfnir, plus the story of Sigurd coming to the valkyrie's castle. here she is called Sigrdrífa, but this character melds into that of Brynhildr in the following poems (and possibly was never a separate character). the Poetic Edda laments the lack of about 8 pages and 250 stanzas, which told the main story of winning Brynhildr's hand, the betrayal and marriage with Gunnar, the altercation between Gudhrun and Brynhildr that leads to Sigurd's death. poem 19, a fragment, reveals Sigurd's honest behaviour towards Brynhildr, and political motivations for his death. furthermore, in these poems, Brynhildr is Atli/Attila's sister, whose other sister Oddrun is also Gunnar's secret lover (yes, it gets complicated). poem 24 inserts Thidreks/Dietrich into the legend. poem 25, the lament of Oddrun, expands on the secret lover thing, and is the basis for Attila's murder of Gunnar, who offended the honour of the lineage by being Oddrun's lover. poems 26-27 tell the story of the burgunds' (here the jutungs) death ad Gudhrun's vengeance against her new husband Attila, like in the saga of the Volsungs. notable is Gunnar being thrown in a pit of snakes and playing a harp with his feet in an attempt to charm them away. poems 28-29 expand on the above mentioned further stories of Gudhrun and of her daughter Svanhildr, killed by her husband king Ermanaric (here Jormunekkr). more blood and vengeance ensue.

within the Prose Edda of Snorri → you can find here, in the Skáldskaparmál chapter, an explanation of multiple metaphors for gold, which were to be used by skalds. when illustrating the kenning "otter's ransom", one of such metaphors, he is referring to the treasure, stolen by Högni (Hagen) and thrown by him and Gunnar into the Rhine. The story follows the saga of the Volsungs somewhat faithfully.

the other things are minor stories that you can include in your readings or not. like, if you're a completionist. with the exception of the Thidrekssaga af Bern, they are tangential or further elaborations of the legend. which, I can list all of those too, but elsewhere, this post is long enough as it is. the Waltharius is one of such retellings, where there are no burgunds, but franks, the protagonist (Waltharius) grows up at Attila's court and knows the Kriemhild equivalent from childhood. the Hagen equivalent is his brother-in-arms, and the late composition mocks the heroic and archaic values of other poems.

the Thidrekssaga af Bern → or saga of Dietrich of Verona is a composite legend of german tradition, compiled in 1200 in bergen, norway, populated by a big group of german merchants. the prologue openly recognises the influence and basis of german versions, and the work itself is a fairly disjointed work that follows, primarily, the gothic king Dietrich/Thidrekr. within his adventures and the typically courtly theme of gaining a spouse of high rank, we find sections named the Niflunga saga, where we find a duel between Thidrekr and Sigurd, who is defeated and becomes Thidrekr's vassal. the chapters 10, 13, 21, 26, and 29 all deal with Sigurd's story. despite being part of the nordic tradition, this saga maintains the sexual assault against Brynhildr. the dwarf smith is here called Mimir, and his brother-dragon is called Reginn. Sigurd travels to Brynhildr's castle, but there is no exchange of marriage promises or a courtship. it also has some wild stuff, like Högni being Gunnar's half brother, with his father being an elf. this version also maintains Gudhrun's revenge against her brothers for killing Sigurd, instead of against Attila, but she is not killed by Thidreks. instead, Attila is locked up in the treasure's cave by Högni's son.

which really kind of concludes all the big sources for the story of the Nibelungs.

bonus: watch the 1924 Fritz Lang movie, if you aren't too put off by extremely cringe depictions of Attila and the Huns. also I guess

so you want to read about the nibelungs but don't know where to start. Fret not. I will tell you all about it

[theoceanthatdrownthemoon-chaldea]

The thing that FGO Sigurd keeps from his legend ia tricking Brynhildr into marrying Gunnar. I hate him for that. There's no way yet to confirm what other details are similar or the same from his legends, I won't comment on that.

In myth, he's responsible for robbing her of her supernatural strength which she uses to prevent her unwanted husband to sleep with her. He either raped her himself (Thidrekssaga) or hold her down for Gunnar to rape her. FGO didn't mention this but the tricking into marriage part is bad enough already. The bit where he received a prophecy likely is drawn from Grípisspá in which his uncle talked about the forget potion among other things. Again, Fate only shorten it to be a tragedy.

[jennifertaylorarts]

🌌🌌🌲🌲🌒🌑🌝🌚 Happy Sunday everyone... Just a little friendly reminder to say 🌲THE AUCTION FOR THIS PAINTING ENDS TONIGHT 🌲 ---------------- To bid on this painting I created for the musician Nhor's debut live performance. It is the only one in the world never to be recreated in anyway 🌲🌲 ------------- FOLLOW THE LINK BELOW TO FIND THE AUCTION • I created this painting during Nhor's first ever live performance at Prophecy Festival in Balver Höhle, Germany. I painted the piece on stage alongside Nhor as he performed his exclusive Wildflowers piano compositions. ------------- The money raised by this auction will be donated to the Herefordshire Wildlife Trust, to help restore Herefordshire's wildlife and engage people with the natural world. - https://www.herefordshirewt.org ------------- This unique piece of art will forever be linked to the first ever live performance of Nhor. The moonlit landscape was painted within the awe inspiring Balve Cave that was mentioned in the Thidrekssaga. The prehistoric site is an honour to perform within, amongst the resting place of dinosaurs and ancestors long forgotten." ------------- @nhoruk ------------- Acrylic on canvas, 50 x 40 cm ------------- ⬇️⬇️⬇️AUCTION LINK HERE ⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️ http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/272793607435?_mwBanner=1 ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ Thank you......

[haljathefangirlcat]

By the way, what are your thoughts on Glaumvor and Kostbera, if you had to include them in your "ideal" version of the story? Especially Kostbera. In terms of being difficult to get along with, much less remain married to, I would rate Hagens on a scale of Rosengarten Hagen > Nibelungenlied Hagen > Wagner Hagen > Volsung Saga Hogni > Thidrekssaga Hogni > Ballad Hogni. And of course Waltharius Hagen is the prequel where he isn't quite so intense, murderous, or scheming. And especially in the Continental sources, where there's no mention of a wife, it's hard to imagine him finding the time to get married with how much he's stuck babysitting his lord or friends. So if Kostbera exists, is she just clearing out of the room so Walther or Volker can take over and deal with Hagen's bad moods?

I've actually never tried to mix the canons, so to say, when it comes to these two.

As you said, Hagen never gets a wife or even a passing love interest in Continental sources -- he really seems like the sort of guy who'd always be too busy fixing up everyone's messes (and then, sometimes, contibuting to making even bigger ones, lol) to even think about that sort of thing, but to me, there's also the way he just feels almost removed from women and their whole sphere, in a sense. In the Nibelungenlied, he remembers Helche fondly, but she's already dead by that point and doesn't even figure in that story; he seems to like Gotelinde, but when they do meet in person, he really only talks to her due to the shield of another man, her dead brother, and then, that whole interaction between them serves mainly to set up the pretext that later allows him not to fight Rudiger; he seems to agree with every other man in Bechlaren that Dietlinde is lovely, but rather than appreciating her himself, he's more concerned with setting up a marriage for Giselher (and thus, an alliance for the Burgundians), while from Dietlinde's point of view, he seems to be the only strange new man in her home to intimidate her; Kriemhild clearly trusts him and feels comfortable with him in the beginning, but the one scene where we really see that dynamic between them is already the one where he's using her to find out how to kill Siegfried without any apparent regret even while addressing her in fairly affectionate terms, and their relationship only goes downhill from there; he goes from calling Brunhild a devil to passionately swearing he'll avenge her honor, but tbh, to me both of these things seem more like they're about Brunhild's shifting relationship to Gunther, rather than about Brunhild as her own person. And even in the Waltharius, his interactions with (the woefully underutilized) Hildegund pretty much boil down to a "hey, Walther, tell your girl to pour us some wine." I'm not saying that I see him as incapable of having significant relationship with women (on the contrary, I'll cling with all my strength to the scraps we get of his affection for Helche, the possibility of a pre-mess positive-if-deteriorating relationship with Kriemhild, and that one source of the story of Walther that's eluding me rn but where Walther apparently wants to flee with Hagen but Hagen stops him and is all like "wtf, no, Hildegund is great and she deserves better than you abandoning her like this"), or even that I don't ship him women (I do!), but when it's so much easier to build on his relationships with men (as much as those are still, ofc, influenced by hierarchies and alliances), imagining a stable straight relationship of any kind, much less a marriage, for him is just something that always feels a bit too much of a hassle or even too out of left field to me.

When it comes to Gunther's wife, too, I prefer to go with the Nibelungenlied/Klage version, where Brunhild doesn't kill herself but rather stays alive at least until the coronation of Siegfried Jr., her son with Gunther. I actually like to imagine she took on a role as Siegfried Jr.'s chief advisor, with a good chunk of Worm's best knights dead in Etzel's court and Ute being presumably grief-stricken. My girl can (try to) put the entire mess behind her and be a well-respected and influential Queen Mother with a son to shape as she pleases guide and no husband to answer to, as a treat. But that leaves little room for a second marriage...

On the Norse side of things, on the other hand, I see both Hogni/Kostbera and Gunnar/Glaumvor as complex relationships. The former because what little we see of them involves Kostbera repeatedly trying to warn Hogni off the journey to Hunaland and Hogni outright dismissing her fears (to reassure her? To reassure himself? He just kinda snapped at her because he had a lot on his mind? All plausible options, imo) but, at the same time, they worked well enough together to have three or four kids; the latter, because they essentially have a repeat of the warning scene between Kostbera and Hogni, except Gunnar concludes it by admitting he actually agrees with Glaumvor but will face the danger anyway, but also because I can't imagine Glaumvor never heard anything about the whole thing with Brynhild and married Gunnar with a light-hearted, optimistic attitude. I picture both as arranged marriages, with no big "I'd leap through the flames for you" moment, and I think that, while Kostbera may have married Hogni pretty readily around the time Gunnar married Brynhild and Gudrun married Sigurd or shortly after because marrying into the Gjukungs was probably looking like a great prospect at the time, Glaumvor may have been pushed into Gunnar's arms by relatives trying to inch their own way closer to Sigurd's gold. I don't see either Hogni or Gunnar as the type to mistreat his wife (... well, beyond the occasional deception) but I imagine both relationship as relatively detached in the beginning, then warming up slowly and gradually through the years, especially in Glaumvor's case.

If I had to mesh those two visions together, I think I'd have Kostbera and Hagen as two sharp, strong-willed people who do have some things in common yet feel distant and slightly awkward around each other nonetheless, with Kostbera either slightly lonely and resentful of Hagen for being more dedicated to his duty and closer to his male friends (or "friends") than to her but also slightly grateful at the same time for the chance to mostly just do her own thing without her husband sticking his nose into her business, or having her own tightly-knit and kind of dramatic circle of female friends (or, again, "friends") as a contrast to his own dynamics, or a bit of both. As for Glaumvor and Gunther, I'd imagine the same uncertainty and shyness I usually pick for Glaumvor and Gunnar... only taken even further and a lot more difficult to grow past, what with Kriemhild still being in Worms for a while after Siegfried's death/being seemingly sent off to a land of pagans after having her husband murdered. Yup, Glaumvor would really be like "oh god, what DID I get myself into" about it.

(Btw, I sort of cackled a bit at seeing Wagner!Hagen in the middle of that ranking, tbh. Not that I don't love him a lot (<33333) but my boy is self-loathing on legs plus generalized misanthropy to go with the usual murder plus a horrible sleeping schedule probably plus terrible family dynamics no matter where you look... and just the thought of Wagner!Alberich as a father-in-law is, imo, terrifying. XDD As for Waltharius!Hagen, he literally waxes poetry about the human condition and needs to be comforted with hugs and kisses when he's upset. I want to pinch his cheeks and ruffle his hair. <333)

[gawrkin]

Gaaaah not dietrich von bern can’t quite blame Arthur in being protective when came to hilde marrying that piece of work’s nephew

Oh no, Dietrich wanted to marry Hilde, for political reasons.

But then Hilde and Herbart pulled a "Tristan and Iseult" and eloped. For his part, Dietrich just shrugs his shoulders.

[setrija-nibelungenfangirl]

My random thoughts on Uli Edel’s film adaptation of the Nibelung Saga from 2004.

Ring of the Nibelungs/Die Nibelungen/Dark Kingdom: The Dragon King/Curse of the Ring (etc. – this movie has too many titles)

Positives:

• The film has some beautiful landscape shots

• Julian Sands as Hagen is pretty hot. Definitely the most attractive Hagen in Nibelung film history in my eyes

• The banter between Kriemhild and Giselher is sweet in their first scene

• Kinda nice that Siegfried crosses the ring of fire to kiss Brunhild in his dream

• I generally like Kristanna Loken as Brunhild, especially when she's in Worms. I like her performance when she confronts Siegfried for the first time about their night of love and in the bridal night scenes. She conveys the suffering of a rejected lover quite well with her facial expressions and with her hesitation at the altar before she says her wedding vow.

• I also like how the bridal night scenes are adapted. The fact that the cloak of invisibility changes the figure instead of turning invisible is the more elegant solution for a visual medium (and also in terms of plot logic). I also think the conversation between Siegfried and Kriemhild when Siegfried wants to secretly stow Brunhild's belt is well done. But I prefer how Siegfried's character is portrayed more ambivalently in the Nibelungenlied (he's the one who comes up with the ruse of the bridal night, and it's not clearly explained why he takes Brunhild's belt and later gives it to Kriemhild).

o This exchange was quite amusing: Siegfried: ‘If I were to tell you, I would break a blood oath.’ – Kriemhild: ‘Then break it.’ xD

• I also found the talk between Kriemhild and Brunhild nice. Them talking it out doesn't fit the NL!versions of their characters, but since they're not adapting the second part anyway, there's ‘no harm’ in resolving Kriemhild and Brunhild's enmity.

Negatives:

• The film has some trashy moments from time to time. For example Siegfried's dragon fight, his childhood including the battle against the Saxons, the whole comet story, the fight between Fake!Gunther and Brunhild, Siegfried's first arrival in Worms where he fights against the Burgundians. But I think those moments keep themselves within limits until Siegfried's murder...

• As soon as the film reaches Siegfried's murder, the quality plummets for me. I spent the last 10 minutes of the film mainly laughing. I'm not a fan of the way the murder scene is edited –the many cuts make the scene more comedic than dramatic.

• And then the ending... Nooooooooooo... The fact that Hagen kills Gunther hurts my soul! Ouch ouch ouch. I guess, it fits into the whole ‘gold currupts’ and ‘the curse of the Nibelungs’ theme, but I just can't and won't judge an ending like that ‘objectively’ XD And the final fight between Brunhild and Hagen uses so many slow motion shots that the fight also develops more comedy than drama. A pop song playing during the final seconds and credits is a ‘crowning’ finish to the film (Here’s a link to the end song of the German film version. I enjoy the song itself, but I wouldn’t put it into a Nibelung saga adaptation XD).

Comments/Nitpicks:

• Why is Siegfried so emotionless as a child? XD

• Siegfried picks up the comet and gets a vision of Fafnir? Because he sees a glimpse into his fate?

• Siegfried is actually brown haired according to the Thidrekssaga, so it’s a cool detail here (but he also has a beard and is really tall in the Thidrekssaga)

• What is Giselher wearing? Who lets the king's brother walk around like that? xD

• The way Siegfried's first visit to Worms plays out seems a bit random in its escalation. Arrogant Giselher meets even more arrogant Siegfried... And dude, how Siegfried winks at Giselher xD I think it's good that the Burgundians react to Siegfried's provocation, but they only do it after Giselher has already left and just attack without saying anything beforehand... Not a bad idea in itself, just the execution seemed awkward.

• I'm never a fan of someone fighting with two swords in films or stories...

• I didn't even remember Dankwart was in the film! Lol

• The dragon fight is a bit ridiculous XD The way Siegfried swings around on a vine(?) XD Because of the lime leaf, it would have been more obvious to have the dragon fight take place IN FRONT of the cave and not IN the cave, where there are no trees. In the film, the wind blows a few lime leaves into the cave, one of which lands on Siegfried. Works, I guess (but seems less elegant). And the dragon is so-so.

• Wow, Hagen and Dankwart even interact (non-verbally). That's actually a surprise that their brotherly(?) bond still exists in this film (even if it only takes up minimal space in the film). A shame it doesn't lead to anything substantial later on.

• I think the war against the Saxons is conclusively linked to the fact that Burgundy is now storing the dragon gold. And Hagen even advises here (as in the NL) to ask Siegfried for help. I'm not really a fan of amnesia plotlines – in itself it wasn't too bad that Siegfried learns who he really is through the war. Just doesn't seem quite logical to me how his amnesia works – it's implied that it's trauma-based, but it seems rather random to me.

• Brunhild communicating with Siegfried through a raven is pretty cool

• The fight between Brunhild and Siegfried/Fake!Gunther... I understand the idea that they wanted to make the fight more interesting. But Brunhild seems rather stupid when she puts herself in such danger while fighting. It could be explained by her being so emotionally upset though, I guess?

• Huh. Why do all those men on Gunther's ships have bald heads? Because they're slaves or servants?

• Giselher has changed his faith because he admires Siegfried and thinks the Old Faith is cool... Appropriate behaviour for a teenager xD

• The name of Giselher’s girlfriend Lena seems a bit out of place with the other Germanic names.

• Dear Giselher, I know you love your girlfriend Lena, but should you really tell her the secret of Gunther's and Siegfried's betrayal – your biological brother and your blood brother?

My personal ranking: 4/10.

The film is actually much better than I remembered, and I also like it much more than Hagen 2024. Brunhild in particular is a lot better in this film – she's not even really a character in Hagen 2024. But I also prefer Hagen, Siegfried, Kriemhild and Gunther. The characters have a certain charm and I also buy that they actually feel emotions and have bonds with each other. Hagen is also quite attractive, for which the film gets a few plus points from me XD But the ending drags the film down a lot and it also has repeated trashy moments that are hard to take seriously (would have given it a 5/10 if it weren't for the ending).

Of course, the film is not an accurate adaptationof the NL and doesn't try to be one. I find it interesting that it refers more to the Norse version of the saga, but I would have preferred it if it had stuck more strictly to the NL or the Norse version of the saga instead of mixing the two so much.

And I focused way too much on Dankwart while watching, even though he's absolutely irrelevant in this film XD

[maier-files]

New Post has been published on The Maier Files

New Post has been published on http://the.maier-files.com/the-original-laurin-der-kleine-rosengarten/

The original Laurin & Der kleine Rosengarten

The Story of Laurin & The Small Rose Garden

  Laurin was probably one of the most popular poems concerning the knight called Dietrich and is attested in variety of manuscripts as well as in printed editions. It almost certainly originates in the 12th century in Tyrol, and has 4 major variations or versions. They all are written in rhyming couplets, except the Dresdner Laurin which is written in stanzas.

The earliest version of the story (the so-called elder Vulgate edition (ältere Vulgatversion)) starts with a dialogue between Witige and Hildebrand. Witige claims that Dietrich is the biggest hero ever; Hildebrand objects that Dietrich has not ever undergone a twergen-âventiure (dwarf-adventure). At this point Dietrich walks in and is really angered by Hildebrand’s personal critique. Hildebrand conveys to Dietrich where he could find this sort of an adventure: the dwarf king Laurin has a rose-garden in the Tyrolian forest. He will battle any challenger who breaks the thread encircling his rose garden. Dietrich and Witige instantly set off to challenge Laurin; Hildebrand and also Dietleib follow sneakily behind. Upon seeing the stunning rose-garden, Dietrich relents and decides that he does not wish to destroy or harm anything so charming.

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Witige, nonetheless, argues that Laurin’s pride must be punished, and not only breaks the strand, but tramples the whole rose garden. In next to no time the dwarf Laurin emerges, armed so splendidly that Witige mistakes him for the Archangel Michael. Laurin demands the left foot and right hand of Witige as punishment for the total devastation of the garden. He clashes and defeats Witige, but Dietrich then determines that he can not permit his vassal to lose his limbs, and fights Laurin personally. At first, Dietrich is losing, but Hildebrand arrives and instructs Dietrich to grab the dwarf’s cloak of invisibility and strength-granting belt, then fight him on foot (the dwarf was riding a deer-sized horse) wrestling him to the ground. Laurin, now defeated, pleads for mercy, but Dietrich became enraged and vows to kill the dwarf. And lastly, Laurin turns to Dietleib, telling him he had kidnapped and married the hero’s sister, so that he was now Dietleib’s brother-in-law. Dietleib hides the dwarf and prepares to combat Dietrich, but Hildebrand makes peace between them.

Dietrich and Laurin are reconciled, and Laurin invites the heroes to his kingdom under the mountain. All are enthusiastic except Witige, who senses treachery. In the mountain they are well received, and Dietleib meets his sister. She tells him she is being well treated and that Laurin has only one fault: he is not Christian. She wants to leave. Meanwhile, Laurin, after a feast, confides to Dietleib’s sister that he wishes to avenge himself on the heroes. She advises him to do so. He drugs Witige, Hildebrand, and Dietrich and throws them into a dungeon. He tries to commit Dietleib to join his side, but locks him in a chamber when the hero refuses. Dietleib’s sister steals the stones that light the mountain and releases Dietleib. They then deliver weapons to the other heroes, and they begin a slaughter of all the dwarves in the mountain. In the end Laurin is taken as a jester back to Verona. Depending different accounts he could liberate himself and return to his magical kingdom in some versions he became Dietrich’s friend. According to Wolfram von Eschenbach, Laurin confided to Dietrich von Bern: “You still have 50 years to live. Yet know that my brother at home in German lands is able to give a thousand-year life. You need only choose a mountain that is ablaze inside. Then you will be akin to earthly gods!”

A connection exists between the Laurin stories and a Tyrolian folk-story in which the rose garden is the source of the magical morning-glow on the Alps.  However, some researchers believe that, since this story is only attested from the 17th century onward, it is more likely to have been influenced by the text than the other way around. Others have attempted to connect the rose garden to a cult of the dead or with an ancestral cult. Similarities with Celtic inspired Arthurian romance (the rose garden as otherworld) have also been proposed.

The Large Rose Garden at Worms

  Any which way there exists also a Large Rose Garden – Der große Rosengarten – (The Rose Garden at Worms). Der Rosengarten zu Worms is attested in numerous manuscript and printed copies from the early 14th century until the late 16th century. The story connects characters surrounding the legend of Dietrich von Bern with those of the Nibelungenlied, and is closely connected with the similar epic, Biterolf und Dietleib.

The basic outline of the story is this: Gibich is the lord of the rosegarden in Worms, and as Kriemhild’s father also father of the three Burgundian kings, Gibich dares any wooer to defeat the garden’s twelve guardians. Dietrich von Bern and Etzel, king of the Huns take up the challenge together. They travel to Worms with their retinue, and face each of the guardians in single combat. Among the guardians are giants, named Pusolt, Ortwin, Schrutan and Asprian. Dietrich von Bern fights and defeats Siegfried. Except for one draw (Biterolf refuses to fight his kinsman Walther of Aquitaine), all fights end with Dietrich’s side victorious. Dietrich fights against Siegfried, initially doing poorly and complaining of Siegfried’s hardened skin. Hildebrand tells Wolfhart to falsely tell Dietrich of the tutors death, after which point Dietrich’s rage causing him to breathe fire like a devil and Hildebrand must intervene so that Dietrich does not kill Siegfried. Finally, Gibich has to submit to Dietrich and Etzel, and the victors are honoured with garlands of Roses and kisses from Kriemhilde.

A connection between this poem and Dietrichs encounter with Siegfried in the Thidrekssaga is usually speculated: either the author of the Thidrekssaga knew of the Rosengarten and altered it for his work (meaning that the Rosengarten existed in the 13th century) or there was an even older tale of Dietrich’s encounter with Siegfried which diverged into the story found in the Thidrekssaga and that of the Rosengarten. Especially noticeable is the fact that Kriemhilt and Gunther’s father has the name Gibich, corresponding to the Norse tradition and the Waltharius, which in the Nibelungenlied has been replaced by another name.

The saga contains many narratives found in other medieval tales about Theoderic, but also supplements them with other narratives and provides many additional details. It is not clear how much of the source material might have been orally transmitted and how much the author may have had access to written poems. The preface of the text itself says that it was written according to “tales of German men” and “old German poetry“, possibly transmitted by Hanseatic merchants in Bergen.[5] Contrary to the historical reality of Theoderic’s life, most of the action of the saga is set in Northern Germany, situating Attila’s capital at Susat (Soest in Westphalia) and the battle situated in the medieval German poem Die Rabenschlacht in Ravenna taking place at the mouth of the Rhine. This is part of a process operative in oral traditions called “localization”, connecting events transmitted orally to familiar places, and is one of the reasons that the poems collected by the saga-writer are believed to be Low German in origin.

And remember: there’s always more than meets the eye!

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Very interesting is Georg Holz work on Laurin’s Rose Garden from 1897 (A GERMAN EDITION):

http://amzn.to/2oRV3ww

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    http://amzn.to/2toBz7r

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    http://amzn.to/2HfCTeW

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[gawrkin]

could you tell me about arthur's bastard (and legitimate) children?

(Word of Caution: For various reasons, including inaccessibility of source materials, I am not fully read up on all the details of the source materials involving the following characters. Nor am I aware of all known children of Arthur. Therefore, I should advice discretion)

First are the two major sons, both of whom changed legitimacies as the legend evolved:

Mordred - Originally a nephew by Arthur's full sister Anna/Morgause in Historia Regum Britanniae, Mordred is later converted into Arthur's bastard son, conceived incestuously, in Vulgate Cycle. The Welsh Dream of Rhonabwy suggests that Mordred was fostered by Arthur (a normal practice of both Romans and Celts)

Loholt/Ilinot - First appeared in Erec and Enide and apparently based on the Welsh character of Llacheu, Loholt was originally a Legitimate son of Arthur by Guinevere in Perlesvaus and the German Tradition. But Vulgate Cycle alters this so that Loholt is instead another bastard son by a certain Lisanor prior to Arthur's marriage to Guinevere.

Next are the ones with Unknown Mothers (and thus of ambiguous legitimacy and relationship to Guinevere):

Amr/Amhar - Son of Arthur mentioned in Historum Brittonum as being killed by Arthur himself. His grave is described as naturally changing size with every look, implying supernatural influence. He is also mentioned in the Welsh Geraint, as one of Arthur's Four Chamberlains

Gwydre - Son of Arthur mentioned only in Culhwch and Olwen. He is killed by Twrch Trwyth alongside two maternal uncles of Arthur.

Llacheu - The most celebrated of the Welsh sons of Arthur, with mentions in Pa Gur, The Welsh Triads and other Welsh Poetic Material. Is usually identified with Loholt, with the Welsh adaptation of Perlesvaus - Y Seint Grail - being the most notable in that regard.

Duran - Son of Arthur only found in a 15th Century Welsh Manuscript, where he is said to have perished during the Battle of Camlann

Archfedd - Daughter of Arthur, found in the Welsh genealogical work Bonedd Y Saint, where she is said to have married Llawfrodedd, one of Arthur's warriors, and bore two children, Efadier and Gwrial

Apollonius, Iron and Hilde - Two sons and a daughter found in the 13th Century Icelandic Thidrekssaga.

Aristes - Son of Arthur mentioned in the Old Norse Mottuls saga

Legitimate Children of Arthur (Although not necessarily Guinevere's children)

Samson the Fair and Grega - Son and Daughter of Arthur by his wife, Queen Silvia. Both found in the Norse Samson saga fraga

Adeluf III, Morgan the Black and Patrick the Red - Three sons of Arthur, from Eldest to Youngest, from Rauf de Boun's 14th century chronicle, Petit Brut. Presumbly, sons of Queen Guinevere, but Rauf de Boun fails to mention the name of Arthur's wife. However, Adeluf III is made heir and assumes the Throne of England whilst Patrick and Morgan are given sizable inheritances in the form of Scotland and Wales. (Note: Wikipedia claims they're Arthur's sons by a fairy queen, but the cited source does not say so. Link to source HERE)

Seleucia - Daughter of Arthur by his first wife, Liscanor (Lisanor), in Jorge Ferreira de Vasconcelos' 16th century Portugese novel Memorial das Proezas da Segunda Tavola Redonda. (*This technically makes her the full sister of Lisanor!Loholt) She married Arthur's successor, Sagramor Constantino (a combination of Sir Sagramore and Constantine, son of Cador) and may have even bore a daughter, Princess Licorida

Huncamunca - Daughter of Arthur and his wife, Queen Dollalolla, from Henry Fielding's 1730 Tom Thumb play

Melora - Daughter of Arthur and Guinevere from the Irish romance Eachtra Mhelóra agus Orlando. One of the more well-known daughters of Arthur and one of the very few warrior women in Arthuriana.

Merevie/Smerbe/Smerviemore - Son of Arthur by his second marriage to a french princess, Elizabeth. Figures primarily in the genealogical legends of Scottish Clan Campbell, who claim descent from Arthur through Smervie.

Rowland, Ellen and Two unnamed older brothers - Certain versions of the Ballad of Childe Rowland and Burd Ellen portray them as the sons and daughter of Arthur and Guinevere, apparently due to the mention of Merlin.

Tryphine's son and daughter - A certain mystery play collected by François-Marie Luzel in 1863 merges Saint Tryphine from the Conomor legend with aspects of Queen Guinevere, with the primary antagonist being the lady's brother Kervoura. The two children are unnamed, but the son goes by an alias, "the Malouin"

Iduna - Daughter of Arthur and Guinevere from Edgar (1839), by Adolph Schutt

Blandine - Daughter of Arthur and Guinevere from Les Chevaliers de la Table Ronde (1937), by Jean Cocteau

Bastard Children of Arthur:

Kyduan/Cydfan - Son of Arthur by Eleich ferch Iaen. Mentioned in Culhwch and Olwen and Bonedd yr Arwyr

Arthur le Petit - Son of Arthur from Post-Vulgate, born of Arthur's deliberate rape of a daughter of Sir Tanas. Arthur le Petit serves as a "good" counterpart to Sir Mordred. He loyally serves his father incognito for many years and despises Lancelot's faction for causing the destruction of Logres. He is slain by Sir Bleoberis.

Tom a Lincoln - Eponymous hero of the 16th century romance Tom a Lincoln, by Richard Johnson. Son of Arthur by Angelica, a daughter of the Mayor of London. Fathers two additional characters, the Black Knight and the Faerie Knight.

Gyneth - Daughter of Arthur by a half-genie named Guendolen. From Walter Scott's The Bridal of Triermain (1813). A huntress whose Marriage competition results in the death of many knights including Vanoc, who is implied to be Merlin's son. As a result, Merlin puts her into an enchanted sleep for many centuries until her true love awakens her with a kiss.

And finally, those with a tenuous link to Arthuriana:

Nathalia - a supposed daughter of Arthur who accompanied St. Ursula according to De Sancta Ursula: De undecim milibus Virginum martirum (1183), by Herman Joseph

Baeddo - Wife of the Visigothic Spanish king Reccared. Claimed to be a daughter of Arthur by Compendio Historial, by Esteban de Garibay y Zamalloa

Tortolina - a daughter of Arthur according to Pantochronachanon (1652), by Thomas Urquhart

*(Additional Source link about the Daughters of King Arthur: HERE)