#they were like 'im not a terf but i believe in their beliefs. trans rights!'

[handsomegentlebutch]

If you see radfems posting their shit beliefs, KNOWING they are a radfem and KNOWING bigotry is the core of their beliefs and that have a deep hatred of transwomen specifically and trans people in general, and you say "I agree with that :)" the call is coming from inside the house. Sit down, examine yourself, and ask yourself why it would ever be appropriate to agree with and platform a radfem.

[androphagy]

when i say "cis men are inherently more dangerous than cis women, trans women, and trans men" the "inherently" is because those are the cultures we're usually in when speaking on trans issues online, especially on tumblr. it is NOT BIOLOGICAL, it is centuries of sociopolitical patriarchal-dominated grooming. it's not biology that makes cisgender men "more dangerous" whatsoever it's the literal historical context of cismale entitlement being funneled through decades and decades of "you're a man so do whatever you want."

this isn't applicable to trans women and trans men because trans women lose that "privilege" the second they're anything other than Good Cis Male Archetype. femininity is punished in people who are viewed as Supposed To Be Men to all different degrees and pretending like trans women have any form of oppressive status over cis men (which is a take i've seen from terfs fairly regularly) is fucking insane. tell me what does a trans woman GAIN from putting herself out there and becoming something societally people, even other cis and trans women, will punch down on at first opportunity. she doesn't!!! she gains nothing but another target on her back!!!! trans women and transfems are seen as this nebulous "other" waiting behind every bathroom door to attack poor random cis women and children and if you can't see that and how prevalent that ideology has become eurocentrically you may just be completely out of touch beyond what i can tell you here.

trans men don't have that same context because unless they were born into a family that raised them fully in the way today's (and im speaking specifically on western/eurocentric ideals) men are raised and don't acknowledge their anatomy at all aside from positively, which is a fairly large part of misogyny, they're going to see misogyny for a good long while regardless of (if they ever do!!) passing status. and that passing privilege can be yanked out from under them if they're outed, medical misogyny is rampant no matter how masculine you look - if you still have a vagina, you will never be seen as male in the eyes of most people. trans men and the transmasculine are consistently erased, correctively raped and abused, and subjugated so they can't "identify" as male in the first place. the swept-under-the-rug-edness of this issue isn't the fault of trans women though!!!! visibility isn't a cake where it'll run out if someone takes more!!!!

the intercommunity "axis of oppression/lateral aggression" theory is specifically to pull apart internal biases surrounding the beliefs and behaviors of queers who are on varying levels of othering dependent on their own personal situations and externalization vs internalization of harm/support. for example its not calling out YOU, specifically, for being wary around people with penises; historical context, as i mentioned earlier, coupled with personal trauma and modern sociopolitical theory contribute to the unconscious bias against sharing the women's room with a trans woman regardless of how much of an ally you claim to be (as a transmasc, cis woman, newly-out transfem, etc.) it doesn't make your beliefs right in being anxious about going to the bathroom while a trans woman is in there too, but it gives you a starting place to begin to work on not having those beliefs. it is not a moral failing to have more privilege than someone else!! you can use that privilege to help them or at the very least see where they're coming from and deconstruct your own internalized bigotry!!!!

don't turn every conversation specifically about trans women's struggles into a "but all trans people --" because that's not what the post/conversation/etc is about. you can make your own post. when a trans woman is talking about how she's been affected and targeted in the bathroom by cis women and refers to them as AFAB, she's probably NOT rubbing her hands together and thinking how she's also "taking a swing" at trans men and transmascs. believe people when they say what they mean especially on a public and largely anonymous forum!!!

trans women have every reason to be afraid of cis men that people AFAB do. are there risks such as pregnancy which can increase that fear in people AFAB? yeah, absolutely. no one is arguing against that. trans women and trans men are arguing that they see bigotry and targeted aggression outside and inside the community, and the inside is on mostly personal-to-clique levels...which happens in every community regardless of it being queer focused or not. a trans woman snapping at a trans man for being entitled online isn't her saying "all trans men are like this and they're basically not even trans because they chose to be men", she's angry at the entitlement, not the trans status. she's viewing it from the extremely trodden-on status of a woman who's being attacked relentlessly for something she has no control over (just like how trans men have no control over being born with anatomically female parts!) just like how trans women can unlearn patriarchal entitlement, trans men can not internalize it and inflict it onto others with the misguided belief of that being how they're going to be seen as a man/that that's just what men do.

personally i think there's been a massive schism intentionally driven by terfs, transphobic queers, and cis people (men and women) between transmascs, transfems, trans women, and trans men because it's easier to break down communities once you sew enough discord and make everyone think no one else understands them and is out to get them at first opportunity (and my hypothesis on hyperindividualism running parallel to modern identity politics goes further into that.)

if you make everyone in the same demographic believe that the other has no way of understanding or relating to one another, then what's the point of having the community to begin with? bigoted groups -- cis, trans, conservative, leftist -- utilize that to really dig their claws in with their "divide and conquer" stratagem, and no one is exempt from being a potential transphobe because of their status of being trans.

compassion for those hurting in a system designed to hurt them will carry you so much further than getting aggro the second someone disagrees with you.

[littlegaydruid]

Re: The most ridiculous posts I saw talking about how

1. the gods would “probably hate trans activists” (contradicting an even earlier post of this user’s that said they didnt like how people used the gods to further political agendas).

And 2. that people you disagree with are still pagans and should be allowed to be part of the community.

And anyways Im not linking the tumblr because I dont want to give them any kind of attention, but I wanted to talk about the posts themselves. Here’s your warning for some talk about terfs, alt-right, etc.

First I’ll address this person’s second point. And I’ll say yes. People who are on the far right, terfs, you name it, are still pagans, or Christians, or whatever spiritual path they choose to follow. Religion and spirituality, (and witchcraft to add that in for the sake of this argument), are inherently neutral things. They can be used to further good or to harm depending on the intent of the individual (or group).

And frankly it does no good to say “so-and-so isnt a real pagan/etc because xyz” because its almost a guarantee that they will turn and point at you with their own reasons why you arent the real one. (no true scotsman…).

What matters here is acknowledging that bad people and people with agendas will be in every group, even if by partaking they are being highly hypocritical. These things dont stop them from worshipping the gods, these things dont stop them from experiencing the gods or their own UPG.

What matters is that despite them being pagans it does NOT mean that they are free from the social consequences if they spout harmful beliefs or engage in harmful actions.

If a community deems your actions/beliefs as harmful, its within their right to exclude you to protect themselves. (And an aside, this is the internet. No one truly speaks for the whole, and with the amount of communities within communities within communities, you’ll find like-minded individuals eventually). But if youre so pressed to be a part of the “broader community,” perhaps its time to do some introspection and consider what it is about what youre doing that makes people unwilling to have you around.

If Jill starts talking shit every time she goes to the Sunday Night Sewing Group because she doesn’t like that Becca and Amy decided to go off-pattern, she shouldn’t be surprised if the group kicks her out because they didn’t want to deal with her toxic behavior.

And, look. I personally believe compassion and respect at an individual level is important to have for people, especially if youre trying to get through to them. But that doesnt mean those people are entitled to receive that from the whole group.

>

That brings me to address the first point. Im not even going to get into the transphobia part. This is where I laugh, because this person started their post like “I dont want to speak for the gods, but—”

Then DONT. Don’t speak for the gods. We can make inferences and form our own opinions based on the texts about them, but no one truly knows for certain what they feel.

All we know with even semi-certainty is the gods are often depicted as fickle, and that their stories were written down by humans and which change frequently over the ages. For all we know, the gods want the exact opposite of what we think. Its even bold to assume they would even care about anything humans do.

“Well I just think so-and-so deity wouldnt like this because theyre the god/dess of x and—”

No.

That’s your opinion, and youre applying it to a deity in order to validate your own beliefs, plain and simple.

Do not do this then complain that others do the same thing.

Do not use your opinion of a god’s feelings to justify treating other people badly.

[damnfandomproblems]

see i knew being anon was the best idea because look at those people saying/implying i hate trans or jewish people. i absolutely dont hate them thanks i wasnt talking about the harrassment in the reblogs or reply's on ny post of this blog specifically. im talking about the fact that that people seem to think its acceptable to harrass others over this dumb fucking video game nd call them a transphobe or whatever im gonna quote this one specifically "Full offense but terfs/transphobes/edgy dudebros literally do this to trans people everyday and literally fight for the right to violate trans peoples' human rights" and while thats horrible you are right now using that as an excuse to, as i will quote from another person, "dehumanize certain groups to void them of their human rights". you are doing the exact same thing as those " terfs/transphobes/edgy dudebros" and thats horrible. they may be wrong but they are still human. and i feel fucking terrible for all the trans and jewish lives lost. i do. but that does not make it right to wish death on anyone else for it. even if they were the cause of death or harrassment. please reevaluate your actions and beliefs. and shout out to that one reblog on the first ask. you get it exactly. your money is going to the developers. people have every right to decide not to buy the game because it makes you uncomfortable that any amount no matter how small is going to rowling. and i was talking about small indie games. the fact that you would think that only small indie games can have bad people for its developers just to "debunk" my point is pretty sad. and one more thing. im not blindly defending harry potter. im tellling yall fucking bullying people is wrong. no matter which side your on. no matter how right you think you are. being dehumanized does not give you the right to dehumanize. and saying so does not mean i side with transphobes or anything. this is the last im gonna speak on this because i cant believe saying "dont bully and dehumanize people" is a bad fucking take, and that people are willing to put words in my mouth and assume the worst of me because im not willing to outright kill people for disagreeing with me or others even over whether or not certain groups deserve to live. fucking. amazing.

Posting this response to a previous ask.

This is why I like having anon for this type of blog.

[gondwana]

the internet spreads misinformation, especially when it comes to women’s innocence (or persecution). we are mutuals and i’m a feminist., what they call these days a “terf” used to be “witch”. i am not transphobic, that’s more misinformation about what feminists believe… i’m not saying this to upset or attack you, just to inform you that there are many people who still want to silence feminists / women in generals voices. what they call a “terf”/“witch” does NOT believe that women are weak/incubators - that’s a very conservative/“republican” (im not american but i think thats comparable) ideal, bioessentialism, which is as far away from feminism as you can possibly get… feminism, and radical feminism, are about liberating and empowering women - every woman has the right to bodily autonomy. Every so-called”terf” agrees on this with you, whilst every conservative misogynist disagrees- they believe in the “role” of a woman being that of a mother and nothing else, etc.. Anyway, i just wanted to share since we are mutuals and i think misinformation is not a good thing . Peace and love to you <3

the problem with trans exclusionary radical feminism is not the radical feminism part it's the trans exclusionary part. I have absolutely zero beef with the aggressive and endless pursuit of women's autonomy. what I have beef with the idea that "women's autonomy" does not include the right for trans women to be safe and not aggressively questioned or ostracized.

of course I have overlaps in my beliefs w terfs. that doesn't make me uncomfortable or confuse me, and it doesn't make me question being very very trans exclusive when it comes to my philosophy about feminism.

also, in terms of misinformation, there is a LOT of misinformation that gets spread around terf circles on Tumblr. like, there's a whole masterpost of alleged crimes done by trans women, and they all link to like, extremely republican/alt right websites, or the link is broken and goes nowhere. and I've read those articles, and they're uncited, or the sources are deleted. it's all fucking fake. trans women being the enemy is so fake. a trans man being some sort of tragic loss of a butch woman is so fake. young feminist women are being brainwashed, because the world is a nightmare, and they're scared, and terfs tell them that biology is to blame.

like, the only Work that terfs have really been able to Get Done has been the oppression of trans people, like with all of these bills being passed thru u.s state governments restricting care for transgender youth. that does nothing for the advancement of feminism. that does not make women safer. women are not living in a world that is getting better. and it's like, these terfs celebrate these fucked up bills in order to feel better about the fact that things are not getting better for women. in fact, if roe v wade is repealed, things will be much much much worse. I think it's a nightmare. i cannot imagine someone else's oppression being further enshrined in our institution being treated like a consolation prize for the fact that women, cis and trans alike, are still treated like shit everywhere.

idk why you are defending terfs. I don't think there is anything there for you in their philosophy. i don't think that they're the modern equivalent of witches. witches were like, women with property that the government wanted to steal. not women on twitter sending death threats to trans women.

this message has been very long. I genuinely don't understand why you're trying to defend the term terf. I do not find confrontational feminism a problem. I find it necessary. but like, terf rhetoric is bioessentialist at it's core. it is what defines it. it is of the opinion that "maleness" is the "opposite" of "femaleness" and that being amab is evil and bad and violent and, in reverse, that women are good and virtuous and victimized. there are a million ways to be amab. a million ways to be afab. a million ways to react to male/female socialization. sex needs to stop mattering if we're ever going to get anywhere, and making sex-segregated rules about bathrooms/sports etc, and restricting people's access to hormones is like, NOT how to do that. and that's what being a terf is to me. it IS about controlling people's bodies. it IS about transphobia. it exists because regular ass radical tear misogyny out by the roots feminism wasn't trans exclusive enough . lol.

anyway,

[bitch-in-a-bag]

can we talk about how the LGBT movement has changed in the past 15 years?

in the light of the events surrounding Chris chan, and people prioritizing pronouns over the rape of a woman with dementia, I think it displays just how... different things are.

i personally feel like it's been co-opted by the more loud and entitled mtfs/ males/penis-havers/whatever pc term exists for the XY chromosome'd, who go too far and aren't reasonably kept in check. I think terf no longer has meaning anymore because it's just become a word we use to silence anyone that disagrees with a trans woman. immediately you're going to call me a terf, I accept that, but please continue reading. I may suprise you. calling someone who's transgender a terf is kinda messed up anyway, and that's exactly why im writing this.

I also think that everyone else (allies, ftms, etc) have followed suit because they've written this messed up narrative that EvErYoNe iS VaLiD. except for trans penis-havers, bc they're the most oppressed and the most valid, actually, regardless of their experiences.

I never used to believe the above because it was always written off as terf shit, and ignoring it kinda benefitted me, but between seeing ftms getting bashed for refusing to follow new "TME" rules as if they aren't trans too, and seeing outrage around Chris chans pronouns, I think it's time to start saying things that may make people uncomfortable. innocent people are already getting hurt by this, and we need to do better. it's time to get uncomfortable.

I want to remind you that perception is both the relying factor, and also the downfall of newer lgbt theory. if my profile were mtf coded, maybe it currently is, you'd call me a self hating trans and I wouldn't be that big of a deal. terfs would probably target me.

if my profile was ftm coded, I would be absolutely skewered for daring to speak out about these issues, even though they do actually affect ftms disproportionately. terfs would try to convince me that being trans is a plague and a mental illness, and to just ~be a cis woman~!

and if assumed cis, I would 100% be assumed radfem terf, and everything I say would immediately be dismissed because of the genuine damage terfs have done. but terfs would still probably flock to this post and berate me for daring to validate trans people At All, because to them, being transgender is a mental illness akin to an eating disorder, and "giving in" to it is "self harm". clearly I don't believe that, so hopefully you'll give me at least some benefit of the doubt.

so, does my identity matter? i have a feeling you'll say yes, because it gives us a good idea of experiences I do and don't have expertise in, and thus room to talk about. but I refuse to directly identify what I actually am because I want the focus of any resulting conversation to be my message and not my self identification. if you read between the lines and figure it out that's just fine, but I would like to be heard first and foremost.

my profile is thus an attempt at being cis female coded, somewhat out of comfort, and that is likely what I'll be assumed to be due to the beliefs I am expressing, even though there is a substantial risk of getting misgendered and dismissed, no matter what my birth sex may actually be. i will give you a hint about my identity: I am transgender, on HRT and everything, and I have been personally affected by all of this. rest assured, this is well within my lane to speak about, and it does matter if you misgender me.

I want you to really think about that. before you respond, really think about if someone saying words on tumblr, talking about their OWN experiences and their take on recent history that applies to themself, really more worthy of being misgendered and harassed than... someone who said they transitioned so they could date lesbians, and then raped their own mother with dementia.

is that fair or just? or is this just a new way of letting people with penises do whatever they want? I personally think it's the latter. we need to hold people like Chris chan accountable without getting caught up on something as minor **in comparison** as misgendering and self identification. Is it sad and confusing that someone who self IDs as transgender became 1:1 with the most dangerous stereotypes that exist for trans women? Of course it is. But it doesn't mean that self identification is suddenly more important than a literal crime being committed.

I would normally dismiss it as a fluke or outright trolling if the evidence weren't so damning that this is in fact a real event that happened. If I hadn't seen this happen to other people, and if I didn't literally know another mtf person who used their dysphoria as an excuse for date rape on multiple occasions and never got any consequences for it.

It's not a one time thing, it's a developing problem that we need to stop before more people have their lives ruined. I can't even imagine how traumatizing and messed up it is for an FTM person to be date raped, by another transgender person no less. When I, an abuse survivor, told people of this MTFs red flags, people violently silenced me. People who didn't know I was trans called me a terf and transphobic. We, as a community, could've protected someone from getting date raped, and we didn't. Trans women can be awful, horrible fucking people, because they are people. Protecting them at all costs is wrong. Protecting them from transphobia is what we should be doing.

That being said, misgendering is still skeevy, and I haven't done anything like raped a disabled woman who is no longer able to consent, or date raped my own partner. if you give a shit about respecting my identity, please use they/them for me. if not, use visual perception and make assumptions that will most likely be incorrect, skew your own argument, and put me on the same level as a rapist, and arguably a fetishist. And I do need to remind you that calling someone transgender a rapist and a fetishist without evidence is still definitely classic transphobia, to the letter, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that.

as someone who is same sex attracted, I also want to bring this up as well.

in the US in the past 15 years, the movement as a whole pretty much went "YEAH BORN THIS WAY" with Lady Gaga, and then jumped ship to prioritize mostly mtfs at every angle. do mtfs need support? absolutely. but they don't need misguided toxic positivity, and that's what it's turned into.

it's gotten genuinely homophobic to the point where actually homosexual people are constantly being erased and demonized via "genital preferences are a fetish uwu", and vulva havers, especially the trans ones, are constantly being told to shut up about their experiences.

as much as you want to deny bioessentialism, its still very much well and alive with newer trans movement sentiments when we classify ftms as not worthy of speaking about their own issues with terms like "TME". it's also incredibly ignorant towards FTMs who pass, but dress feminine for comfort, and get mistaken for MTF, and treated like garbage because of it. They are not remotely exempt from misogyny, transphobia, or the intersection of the two, and it is not anyone's job to tell them they don't ever experience that when they do. Turning ftms and biological homosexuals into our enemies-- especially when the actual cause is transphobia and harmful gender stereotypes-- does nothing good or healthy for our movement.

Dont be mistaken, though, passing isn't the focus or end all be all here, it's the perception of others that ends up drastically effecting your experiences. There are words like misogyny that imply treatment via birth sex, however this too can be reliant on external perception. If an MTF individual either transitions very young, has an abundance of resources to transition, or just gets lucky and passes well, chances are she will experience a lot more misogyny than people may give credit to. inversely, someone who just started questioning yesterday, but lived as a male their whole life up until then, they genuinely cannot speak about misogyny with that much room because they simply haven't experienced it at an accurate enough angle or for enough time to understand it as a repeated and sociological force.

It works the other way as well, though; someone who's known that they're trans for a long time and haven't had the resources to transition, or do not or cannot pass in the eyes of society; these people suffer pain that we don't neccesarily have a word for yet, imo. It makes dysphoria worse and it makes living seem hopeless. And as a community, we deal with this is in a really messed up way by over-validating them instead of solving the core issue at hand. and people who suffer from this, but also acknowledge they can't claim what they haven't experienced, are left with nowhere to go.

And its important to acknowledge these things because they're integral to the over-encompassing trans experience. Instead of lying to everyone and telling everyone they pass/giving out unconditional positive regard, our focus should be making it so that it **doesn't matter if you pass**. that you're still worth respect and dignity if you're transgender, no matter what passing is or what it means to you, and no matter how you present. But also, if you do something awful, you still need to be held accountable, especially if you use yourself, your body, or your trans status to contribute to other axi of oppression.

Transphobia is a word that encompasses and addresses all of that, regardless of birth sex. "TME" shuts that down in favor of only letting MTF's speak. Which is still very bio-essentialist, and I can't help but feel like we've gone full circle.

Once upon a time you couldn't even get married if your partner had the same genitals as you. in the US, this was less than 7 years ago. and if you care about human rights activism, you know damn well that legal modification is not the end all be all. people who are genuinely homosexual are still oppressed, but the trans movement has started stepping on them to make ground we don't deserve. homosexuals are ok and valid. it's not a genital preference, and the prescence of trans people doesn't make conversion therapy sentiments ok, ever.

we've gone full circle, and it's not right.

[6ad6ro]

i think it's especially easy for neurodivergent ppl to blindly follow a community's "rules", especially when they're created by communities that overall have seemingly "good intentions". there isn't that necessary process of criticism, and context is rarely used alongside these "rules".

i randomly joined tumblr way back when, and IMMEDIATELY was like "wow, this is amazing. these ppl care about human rights and want to make the world a better place!" lol. and i began to blindly follow a lot of "rules" and cast a lot of judgements without thinking. it was pretty easy to do, considering i'd left places like youtube where (hatespeech and prejudice ideas are really common). tumblr seemed like paradise.

sure enough, i found myself saying things like "i hate men" (im he/they), "i hate white ppl" (im white), "i hate cis ppl". etc etc etc. it's really easy to like... passionately want change. and think the groups you're supporting are always right.

it's easy to make blanket statements... to follow "rules" without thinking? when your intentions are "good". i just wanted actual equality. the culture i was involved in said "these ppl are at fault, we need to change them to fix things". so i went along with it. i didn't think. i wanted to be "good".

but what about male allies. what about trans men. what about WHITE allies... do some of u gays REALLY not have a single cis person you're friends with? sorry, but theres a lotta ppl that fall into these groups who are ABSOLUTELY lovely. and also on your side.

and yet here you are, blogging about how much you hate them. throwing them under the bus based on the color of their skin, their gender, or their prefs.

just bc racist/sexist/transphobes commonly call out tumblr as a "place of hate" to try and justify their OWN hate (u know the tactic)? doesn't justify what we're doing. many of tumblr's "rules" and widespread beliefs? are inherently prejudist.

and neurodivergent ppl can just... eat this stuff up. me personally? i'm ALWAYS having to ask others "is this okay" or "am i doing this right"? it's really hard to make confident decisions on my own. so i would see "rules" as a godsend. something to trust in.

not realising that the same type of authoritarian, control-freak mentalities that exist in like... government? are also in these marginalised communities.

not to call anyone out, but i ran into yet another person with an absolutely silly dni today (ftr they seemed like a rly sweet, at most confused, younger person doin their best). but they literally were like "if someone i follow is bad, please lmk"... like? while on the surface that might seem like "oh i wanna know if someone i rb from is a secret terf" etc? i can't help but see it as "i dont know the rules! plz tell me the rules!!! i wanna do the right thing". bc i'm sorry. i see this stuff too much from atypical peeps.

there was a lot of confusing stuff in this dni. another being "if you believe there can be racism against white ppl, please dni" (the user claimed to be white btw). like... honestly? this one makes me wanna scream. bc what ppl call "racism" is usually just "prejudice". and YES prejudice actually DOES happen against white folk. your statement is an example. seriously tired of marginalised communities excusing their prejudices simply bc they're poc or gay or just whatever. like if you CHOOSE to make excuses for why hating someone based on their race or gender or sexuality is okay? you're excusing prejudice.

it even gets extra silly w the less serious "rules". like i'll see things like "no self-shipping" (its fictional), "no problematic character love" (its fictional), "you must set up/format your blog in this way" (its not your say, so if u dont like someones blog just unfollow/block omg). just a lotta weird "rules" where i KNOW these ppl got em from other cutthroat, authoritarian, self-proclaimed "good people". "no racists" is a rule that makes sense. but "no vtuber shipping"??? are... are u kidding? u know that anime youtubers are designed to be horny, right? lol... i just see a lotta stuff. too much demonizing and over WHAT? it's ridiculous.

PLEASE! for the love of GOD just TRY and use context and individual judgement. and i say this ESPECIALLY to other neurodivergent ppl. bc i get that it's really hard for ppl like us. but...

i guess i'm just tired of seeing so much hate being disguised as justice and love. and i'm tired of atypical ppl's trust being taken advantage of. i'm tired of blind rulefollowing. if tumblr communities should teach you anything, it's to be critical and analytical of morality. i know it can be difficult, but please just THINK.

[agaybird]

big tw: transphobia, terfs, violence, and assault.

tumblr wont let me reply, so let me make one (or many) things clear:

all of you who left replies such as this on my post are so fucking ignorant. so i wanna bring up a couple of things.

1. you are watering down the meaning of rape.

you say this is "rape by deception" but if you can't tell the difference in the genitals, what is the difference? you surely can't tell the difference if you say you are being "deceived". you not sleeping with them at that point simply means you're transphobic for no reason.

this isn't at all comparable to men taking off their condoms (aka "stealthing") before finishing. see, that is a form of sexual assault. it also isn't equivalent to someone having an STD and not telling their potential partners: being trans isn't contagious nor inherently dangerous, despite the talk of trans panic that you all clearly believe.

if the people are, say, just hooking up, neither are drunk, and there is consent from both parties... then how is it rape? the answer: it isn't. they literally both consented. also see above paragraph.

2. you are attempting to label all trans people as predators for not outing themselves immediately.

most, if not all, of the trans people in these situations are stealth. this means that they can't out themselves for their own safety. it also means they pass as cis. trans people outing themselves has consistently lead to hate crimes including injury and death; especially the trans women you keep citing as predators.

even if trans people aren't stealth, outing themselves to strangers is incredibly dangerous. trans people still deserve good things (including but not limited to sex) despite and including the fact that they are trans. Yes, sex should be fully consensual. And yes, nobody needs sex. however, if you think that trans people should just stay indoors or else risk hate being literally hate crimed while hooking up, you're crazy. you will always encounter people you don't like when hooking up. but you don't ask the included parties their political beliefs beforehand, do you?

in relationships i do believe that trans people should at least know their beliefs on trans people, not for the cis person's comfort, but for the trans person's safety.

may i also remind you all that there are trans minors, including teens and children. labelling them predators is really fucked up actually.

in fact, trans people are far more assaulted by cis people, whether that be by "corrective rape" or otherwise. this blog post states, "...TERFs trying to ban trans women from women’s bathrooms are essentially demanding that they compromise their own safety by forcing them to use men’s bathrooms, which puts them at risk of assault by transphobic men who don’t like the idea of “men wearing dresses.” This sort of violence isn’t imaginary. These assaults really do happen. (And it’s not just cis men who are the attackers; several days ago two cis women were charged with sexually assaulting a trans woman in the bathroom of a /North Carolina bar.)"

3. trans people can be bad people, but that doesn't mean all trans people are bad.

anyone can be a bad person. anyone. but you don't fault all women when one happens to become a predator or rapist: you fault that one woman. it's also not equivalent to being afraid of men, because in that case, every 1 in 4 men has either attempted or completed rape between the ages of 11 and 17 years old just in the united states, which is a significant amount: significant enough to be cautious of most men. especially considering that almost every woman i know has been assaulted by a man in some way. in comparison, almost no trans people have been reported to attack people (specifically in restrooms) in the united states. trans people, in fact, are four times more likely to be victims of violent crime, such as rape, than cis people.

the "trans people" you all love to source are, spoiler alert: not actually trans! pretending to be a gender you aren't to manipulate someone and being trans are completely different..... being trans has to do with your personal identity, and you transition for yourself. pretending to be a gender you aren't is just that: pretending. it is done to manipulate people. someone cited this article and this article about the same person. as far as i can tell, the only thing this person did was have sex with the woman with a strapon? she was under the impression it was his real penis, but it wasn't. apparently he also shamed her for not getting pregnant. and yeah, that's shitty, but it isn't rape. there was absolutely no harm done to her as far as i read in the articles, and there was both no risk of the woman getting pregnant or getting an STD. she also apparently couldn't tell the difference between a penis and a strapon... yikes. how is this rape? again, it's definitely shitty, but saying it's sexual assault is completely stretching it. this dude was a shitty person, but you all seem to cite the same shitty people in regards to your "justified" transphobia.

i trust other trans people far more than i trust cis people. you know why? i never felt in danger in the presence of a trans person because they are trans, but i have felt unsafe in the presence of cis people because they're cis. i and my loved ones have been put in danger many times because someone perceived me as trans, or i was outed. without having expressed any of my opinions. my existence is inherently political, and that makes me a target.

there is a lot more to discuss, but this is what im putting out there right now.

you seem to forget that we're actually human beings. you dehumanize us and spread lies to be "gender critical" or a "feminist", but you refuse to acknowledge all those who are caught in the crossfire, and those actual human beings you're hurting and killing. fuck yall.

im not even going to mention the amount of cis people ive been assaulted or near-assaulted by compared to trans people, because it's practically 1000:1. that's hardly an exaggeration. get your heads right.

tip jar

my trans-run shop

[ingayderzim]

not to be that person who asks a googleable question but wtf is hazbin hotel bc i googled it and the only “critical” thing i could find was a typo-ridden article of someone saying it has good animation and its haters are stupid. i was able to glean what it is/what it’s about but idk about the discourse lmao

Im actually so glad u asked this. Here's the lowdown, this is my definitive answer to hazbin shit from here on out, unless new info comes about of course.

Hazbin hotel is an independent cartoon by vivziepop. Most people (that ive seen) have agreed that the pilot of the show really isnt that great but the reason it has so many fans is bc of the entertaining livestreams, massive amounts of canon content produced (she has had these characters for years), unique art style, and the characters. (Ass ugly but unique.)

Its haters are totally justified bc of some of the "controversial" (read: bad) things vivziepop has done. Here's the conclusion that my friends and classmates (several of whom are Black, one Hispanic woman, and one trans woman...nellie if ur reading this i 💜 u) and i came to after discussing this stuff. I am NOT saying "well my black/trans friend said it's ok so i dont have to think about it!" this is based on a few different conversations that my friends and i have had about this topic so what im saying is that my opinion was formed by talking about this situation with multiple people affected by the controversy.

One controversial thing is a drawing u can easily find on google (called beastiality.jpg i believe?) It's a cropped (chest and up, but hes obv naked) drawing of vivziepops character, drawn by vivziepop, moaning, with a snake around him. The character is 17. Many people have interpreted this as child porn. I dont think this image is pornographic, i think it's a stupid joke (it was even tagged as a joke iirc) and completely inappropriate but since it's 8 years old on top of not being porn, i think it's just an example of a dumb drawing. That being said, i would NEVER argue that someone who is uncomfortable w the drawing (im uncomfortable with it! It's gross just not porn) or considers it porn is wrong. They are entitled to that opinion and i would never expose them to vivziepops work or talk about her stuff around them if they expressed to me that they disliked the image.

Another thing is that she drew a doodle of two racist TERFs. This is the one where my friends of color, my friends who are black, and my friends who are trans women took the lead. I sat back for this part and here's their and my opinion on this after talking about it and verbally going through this whole situation.

She was following these women (who had done blackface and stuff) and drew art of them. The art was a "quick doodle" that she did apologize for and she said she didn't realize the extent of their beliefs. She knew they werent great but hadnt consumed much of their content in depth. I believe her bc while ive never followed anyone as bad, ive certainly followed some pieces of shit and didnt notice for months simply bc im not online all the time and bc of the volume of people i follow, combined with the non chronological algorithms lately.

At the risk of screwing myself, im going to admit that there was about a year or so of my life where i enjoyed The Amazing Atheist. I was even subbed to him. I was a nonbinary lesbian (2 things he cant stand lmaoo) in catholic school and therefore i strictly watched his videos about theological stuff since thats what was frustrating me at the time. I had no clue the type of evil racist, transphobic, homophobic (yes ik hes bi), misogynistic things he thought, said, and did, bc i didnt watch those videos. I literally only watched select theological ones that could be of use to me while edgily debating my teachers (sorry mrs macdougal but u had it coming). I was about 15 at the time and im 19 now. Im sorry to everyone i hurt by ever having supported him. I had one of his quotes written in the inside of my religion notebook in high school. I regretted it and ripped the page out the moment i discovered the truth about him. I cant stress enough how much I HATE HIM. Thats an example of what i think happened here tho.

One of my friends who is a trans woman said (paraphrasing) "i think the worst thing shes done is that terf art but i believe the apology especially bc it was a quick drawing."

That being said, i would NEVER argue with someone who wanted nothing to do w vivziepop bc of this. That's their right. 100%. I would never expose them to her work after that.

The last thing i remember is something about a pedophilic couple in a comic but i heard it was a 17 year old and a 19 year old. Im 19 and if one of my peers did that i wouldnt say pedophile but id say ur a fucking weirdo, BUT, the kids were fake and being written by an adult so i can totally see her thinking that age gap is much less of a big deal than it really is. Like she forgot what it's like at this age. Idk how true any of that part is tho, i heard that info entirely secondhand.

Another thing to do with racism is that there's a joke within the show where one character says to the other

"don't get your taco in a twist"

"Was that supposed to be racist or sexist?"

"Whichever one pisses you off more"

I thought that was gross but one of my friends pointed out that vivziepop is of el salvadorian descent so that's her business. Like if i made a lesbian joke of equal or greater offensiveness than that and someone tried to call me lesbophobic over it id be like "that's literally my territory."

Oh speaking of which that character's name is vaggie and shes a lesbian but it's not pronounced w the same G you'd hear in "vagina." Vivziepop seems to name characters weirdly (like how in helluva boss theres a guy named blitzo and the o is silent) so maybe it's a pussy joke but i have no idea.

The animation was.................better than i could do, i wanna say the faces and gestures were good but god i remember there was a part with a car and my gf had to pause so i could laugh my ass off at it. I wouldn't describe the animation as a highlight but i liked the style in motion i thought it was a fun change. Vivziepops style is not appealing imo but i appreciate it as an art student and as someone whose friends all like she ra and steven universe where every character looks the goddamn motherfucking same, and while its chaotic and i dont care for it, the style actually works way better in motion than you'd think.

A good rule that i def use is to assume hazbin fans are guilty until proven innocent. If someone says they dont care about the discourse surrounding it and like it no matter what, RUN! They would support the show even if the creator was in fact a pedophile, or had done the blackface/was a terf herself! They probably support some horrible ppl and are probably "anti antis." A lot of them are minors tho so i'd say block and move on.

So, do i like it or not? Im an art student and all my friends like it so while i didnt think it was funny, i do fuck with it. At the convention this weekend my friends and i had a convo that led to me drawing an ahego hoodie where the faces were angel dust (a character's) face. It was a joke that i could make a killing by selling that in a booth at a con.

Theres really nothing compelling about the show but my friends like it so i join in on their conversations, and i do have a soft spot for angel dust bc he's like a worse, less amazing and gorgeous version of one of my characters, Candy, the love of my life.

A lot of people say the show was edgy/offensive and maybe im just desensitized but besides the taco thing i didnt pick up on that whatsoever??? The Archer episode "Swiss Miss" is worse than helluva boss and hazbin combined and even archer isn't offensive.

Im probably not aware of all the "discourse" (aka people being reasonably uncomfortable by weird and bad shit this random woman has done, and other ppl saying their opinions are wrong when it's literally just an opinion about a show) so if anything she's done isnt included in here it's not to defend vivziepop, this is genuinely all i know. I wouldnt describe myself as a fan of hers.

[korrasera]

helloooo, hope im not a bother or anything but im trying to make sure some friends on discord can recognize radfem rhetoric. so im gonna make a big post about it, and i want to work in the idea that "radfem is an authoritarian school of thought wherein stuff like 'gender=genitalia' & 'men=scum' are the idealogical authorities it subscribes to," except. succinct? in smaller words? so folx who only know "terf=transphobe=bad" could easily understand that. idk if asking you is the right move, but??

Before I answer your question, I should mention that something you’ve said in this statement isn’t accurate. Let’s break that down and then after that I’ll answer your question. Everything will be under the cut.

You mention “wherein stuff like ‘gender=genitalia’ & 'men=scum’ are the ideological authorities it subscribes to” and that gives me the impression that you don’t yet have a handle on authoritarianism or how TERFs work. I could be wrong and we’re just having trouble communicating, but I want to make sure to clarify this point.

Authoritarianism is the name for the social structure and the way that authoritarians behave, not the actual beliefs that they hold.

For example, right-wing conservative Christians are authoritarians, but their beliefs are almost always rooted in modern Christian dogma. They believe in God, Jesus, and all kinds of stereotypes that come to them because of that framework. The religious belief itself isn’t what makes them authoritarians, it’s their social structure. They organize into hierarchical social structures where there’s a pecking order; the in-group is acceptable and good and the out-group is unacceptable and bad. And they position some people as their leaders and then follow those leaders without question.

That last part might sound a little strange, like who actually follows anyone without question, but that’s seriously one of the weird things about authoritarians, they just don’t question their leaders. The leader can violate almost any tenet of the group’s beliefs, but as long as they are not secretly an unacceptable member of the out-group, the in-group will put up with it.

Hopefully, this makes it clear why you can see it in so many different groups, even ones that seem like they’d be natural enemies due to their beliefs, and why authoritarianism isn’t limited to groups that are known for being conservative or traditionalist. TERFs are a great example, because they come from feminist and LGBTQ+ communities predominantly, neither community being known for conservative or traditional values.

In the case of TERFs, their in-group is cis women that embrace radical feminism and transphobia. I think that they also skew heavily white, but I can’t honestly recall if there’s evidence to that effect. The out-group that TERFs seek to attack is trans women and particularly black trans women and other trans women of color. While they also identify all trans people as targets along with our allies, trans women of color are their primary target.

The fact that TERFs lean on ideas like how gender doesn’t exist and sex is entirely about genitals and that men are scum, those are just the beliefs that they use as justifications for their behavior, those don’t represent their authoritarian traits in and of themselves.

Okay, now to answer your question.

My answer is, I do not know. Teaching people about something is hard and I’m not professionally trained, so I tend to play it by ear. If you’ve been reading my blog then you can see that sometimes I press way too hard in an effort to teach someone ideas that I believe to be true.

However, if I were going to approach your idea, I’d start simple and work your way towards complex. Make sure they understand that TERFs first and foremost hate trans women and trans people and have done a lot of things to try to cause us harm. As they’re authoritarians, they construct a narrative in which they are poor put upon heroes fighting the Evil Trans Agenda. That’s how they justify bullying a group that has significantly less social power than trans people do.

If people understand what you’re getting at you can then make resources available that go into more detail on TERFs and their ideological attitudes. A good place to start (and @freedom-of-fanfic I’m sorry I tag you so often in things like this but your posts are so damn perfect) is a masterpost like this one:

https://freedom-of-fanfic.tumblr.com/post/169635466149/unmasking-radical-feminism

@freedom-of-fanfic writes a lot of great stuff and this one is a good breakdown of how to recognize the ways that TERFs and radfems will disguise their attitudes in language that can pass unnoticed by people in general.

So, that’s how I’d do it. Start simple and work up from there. Define TERFs, talk a little bit more about them, and when people are getting an idea you can direct them to resources that help them learn to recognize how TERFs talk and how TERFs indoctrinate people with their language. Good luck!

[peakblr]

rad asks: 3, 10, 16

ah hey!!!!!! thanks for asking 💕💐 sorry this took so long

3. Are there any parts of radical feminism, or beliefs commonly hold by radical feminists that you strongly disagree with?

im actually having a hard time answering this ahshskshdlska i wrote a really long rambly response but i ended up justifying what i was describing as disagreeing with LOL so like. idk no widely held radfem beliefs are coming to mind, sorry im just as disappointed as you are shdkshdlsjds i hope this doesnt sound sheepish or anything. So i’ll say what i do agree with, which won’t come as a surprise to anyone probably.

i’m anti porn, i think porn should be illegal, should not exist and all of it should be destroyed, pornstars should be given justice and compensated somehow for the govt allowing this shit, and all pornographers should be considered lower than dirt and killed publicly LOL. and i don’t feel bad about that, they don’t feel bad about filming rape and selling it, having the pornstars they abuse lie about how they love it when asked. i feel the same way abt prostitutes and their pimps, that paid consent is not consent and pimps can all drop dead.

i’m all for separatism, no it would not stop men from being men, but it would save women and girls a lot of grief, hurt and scarring.

i think gender isn’t real, is used to oppress women and helps no one, and that id rather it be abolished than exist to validate some people who like gender roles, ackshully.

ive been agnostic for a long time; my mom and my brother are atheists, my dad is a deist. but i will sooner believe that the creator of everything is female, having given birth to the universe than a male. A man’s involvement in creation is his ejaculation. No more, no less. life does not begin in the testicles, or you wouldnt see all this anti abortion stuff, you would see more anti male masturbation stuff–if it weren’t mostly about using women as incubators, lol. that being said i’m pro choice clearly.

i am anti surrogacy, for similar reasons. same sex couples should absolutely be allowed to adopt, but no one has the right to have a baby except the woman who can use her own uterus for her own baby. even with infertile women, there is no justification for paying another women to rent out her uterus.

i currently am not vegan but i admire the ideas behind it, and i see the similarities between how animals and women are treated. i do know however that those who are farming this produce are not necessarily treated well either. disclaimer i know literally jack shit about it so i can’t really speak much for it either way at this moment.

i know there are trans identified, detransitioned or reidentified females who don’t like words like “mutilation” to describe the surgeries they have had to remove their breasts or to alter their privates to mimic penises, and while i don’t insist on mutilation being the word used, i don’t see how it is inaccurate and i find it hard to talk about it in a positive light, less i be endorsing that women get these surgeries to ease their discomfort with their bodies. that being said i don’t want tifs or detransitioned/reidentified women to beat themselves up and constantly regret it. it is not their fault that they were made to be so disconnected from their bodies. they did not want that, and with the trans movement there were not a lot of people telling them that there are other ways besides transitioning to deal with these feelings. i don’t see how this can be hard to believe seeing as we call it the trans cult all the time, which is an accurate name by the way.

i like the alternative spellings of woman and women. womyn, wombyn, wimmin, womxn, a mon, wom or whatever it is. i don’t currently use them myself but i love them and i don’t care how “stupid” you think it is. you know whats stupid??? the words “trans woman,” “trans man,” and “nonbinary.” “Cis woman.” yeah ill take wombyn any day rather than agree that i “identify” as a woman for not subscribing to the transgender religion.

political lesbianism is shitty, i understand some straight women don’t wanna be celibate, but dating lesbians to stick it to the men and not because you love that lesbian is selfish i think. if youre bisexual then you are also not a lesbian but by all means be a febfem or just a bisexual who does not fuck with men.

prostitution will never be empowering. make up, nails, impractical clothes, revealing clothes is not empowering, having men think you are sexy or fuckable is not empowering. you are not “doing it for yourself.” “Poly” relationships are not empowering or woke, making yourself more accessable sexually to men is not empowering in the same way that it empowers men to have sex with multiple women.

idk ive been writing this for a million years but thats some things off the top of my head that i know i Do agree with, i know that wasnt the question but i still wanted to say something lol. i realize now this answered multiple questions from that ask post so im sorry if anyone else thought of asking those things that i answered LOL

10. What’s your relationship with the term “terf”?

ah! i do jokingly call myself that occasionally, you can see it right there on my about page. but in all seriousness it’s horseshit and goes to show how narcissistic the trans movement is. I see people, newly self described radfems who haven’t figured out what the point of it all is, who try to say “there’s a difference between terfs and radfems! You can be radfem and trans inclusive!” or whatever. To which I say, 

these are not two separate groups. Actual radfems are called trans exclusionary because they don’t think men who identify as women can be oppressed by women, and that having been born as a woman is not a privilege, regardless of how that woman identifies. 

radfems aren’t even trans exclusive, really. While there are many detransitioned, reidentified women, there are also many who have transitioned and intend to stay that way, or who are even transitioning currently for their own reasons and comfort, while still confronting their womanhood and how they have been affected or are effected by being a woman in our society as well as how transitioning is dangerous. it’s male exclusive more than anything, and rightfully so. any problems men have are created by other men, and as one user on here put it, feminism should not be “all lives matter.” 

i forgot to say this initially but being “trans inclusive” is interpreted by some to mean “trans endorsing,” that being trans is an innate thing just like homosexuality, that brain sex is real, and that there is nothing wrong with trans identified females getting surgeries they don’t need on perfectly healthy genitals, or getting hormones they otherwise wouldn’t naturally have that have life altering side effects. otherwise i would be called trans exclusive. LOL. so it really does not mean anything, ultimately.

16. How do you feel about the terms TIF/TIM?

i think they’re great. it says exactly what it means. it is much more appropriate than trans man or trans woman, and it makes it easier to talk about them with a little less word salad. the term trans man others tifs from females, and the term trans woman others tims from males. this is problematic. there is nothing differing tifs from females and tims from males outside of the fact that they are trans identified. the only differences they may have are if they have surgically and or hormonally transitioned, but it is not enough difference to make them the opposite sex, nor does it erase male or female socialization, and the benefits or consequences of being a man or a women, respectively. i worded this a lot better when i saved this draft last but tumblr seemingly ate it LOL so thats a drag. but yeah. tif/tim is great. i don’t think it should be offensive, there is nothing insulting or cruel about it. at best it is “invalidating.”

thank you for sending me these!!!! i’m sorry if my answers were unsatisfactory or hard to understand lmao i edited a lot of fluffy blabbering out of my responses believe it or not. i hope you’ve had a great day and that you’re having a lovely night 💌🌻😊

[transinclusionary]

None of that means they can't be/aren't secretly terfs. It's easy af to pretend not to be

no im sorry not me. I am definitely a good judge of character. No one is perfect and I don't always make correct assumptions about my compatibility with friends, but I talk about my attitudes towards life way too much to not weed out terfs. My best friend is a trans woman, and my partner has trans family. My parents also are trans competent, otherwise I would no longer speak to them.

But seriously it kinda sounds like y'all silently go about life being afraid to voice your opinions when they're not online. It's probably because deep down you know that no one would accept your reasoning. Not trans people, not conservatives, not mainstream feminism, and most certainly not the lgbT community.

In my time lurking on those awful tags I've learned two things about terfs: 1) you all are some of the most miserable, hateful people on the planet. The average terf rhetoric is so beyond disrespectful. Before you say "but "TRAS" 🙄 also say hateful things to us!!" Probably, but one is a political group and the other is a demographic. Thus they are not equal in terms of the discrimination you get for both. Trans people can be bad just as much as cis people, same with straight, gay, black, white, etc. But terf is an mindset, which you can absolutely control, thus it is not discrimination. It's similar to the concept that black lives are real but blue lives are not. You cannot make the same generalizations about trans people that I can make about terfs, because it is not an identity that you were born with. You do not have to have these opinions. You do this to yourself with asinine assertions that if you identify as trans you're INHERENTLY a certain way. That's so fucking stupid bruh I can't even lie. It's literally the exact same shit European Americans pulled on African Americans. No one is inherently bad because of their gender. People are bad because bad people are inherent to humanity. Sometimes a group can be emboldened by societal messages of superiority. But that still does not mean that cishet white men are inherently bad people, they just have a lot of societal conditioning to unravel. And guess what, same with cis people. The messages we receive in a Christian influenced society (no sun ever rested in the British empire) influences the way we perceive the actions of minorities we don't have much contact with. But people in your demographic of course get to be individuals. Bad radfems don't speak for you but every trans criminal speaks for all trans people right? That sounds stupid doesn't it? That's because it is.

The second thing I have learned is 2) terfs will wait a really long time to reveal their beliefs because you know how isolating your believes are outside of Tumblr and Twitter (maybe even irl but I doubt y'all go outside besides going to work). It is not for your safety, it is because no one likes you. And you not being liked is no one's problem but your own. I am a very polarizing person (as evident from this blog) but there have been people in my life now and in my past who adored me/who I adored. I have never struggled in life to find at least one friend. Can you say the same? Your hatred makes you lonely, and I'm sorry to say but I can sense hatred in a person from a mile away. I am training to be a therapist and if you really pay attention to the people around you, a lot of them wear that shit on their sleeves.

So basically, y'all carry that antisocial energy everywhere you go. Most people will subconsciously avoid you and never put the time into you. People like me sniff out your bullshit from an anon. That leaves the other hateful members of your little clique. Do you think your Tumblr radfem compatriots will ever be a true friend to you? Will they be at your wedding, birthdays, or funeral? Or will they ditch you the second you say something too dodgey for the hate group.

If you read this whole thing and STILL don't understand I'll spell it out: if they make fun of others, they will absolutely do it to you eventually, without fail. Bad actions do not lead to good people in life. So next time you're miserable, think about this post and know you were told exactly what's wrong with you by a random internet stranger who you sent an anonymous message to. Couldn't be me ✌🏾

[little-klng]

Hey babe I'm a cis lesbian and not one of those comments explained anything lol they just spent all day spamming my notes with bullshit. I dont have to be nice to terfs or keep their trash in my blog, the block button is free and I use it well. An awful lot of yall are acting like it's a stretch to think you believe gender begins at conception and like I hate to say this but the second medical science progresses to the point that trans women can get uterus' and get pregnant you'll find a shocking number of pro life terfs :) all its gonna take is trans women being counted under that pro choice umbrella you want to keep exclusive so bad for every one of you to jump ship and you damn well know it

Over 100 terfs saying "wow ur wrong" is not the same as "explaining how painfully wrong I am" and if you dont know how then you cant read, just like every other nasty ass terf that doesnt know how to leave other people alone when you're clearly not welcome.

Terfs get mad at me because I'm a "gold star" (🤢🤮🤮🤮 fuckin hate when they say that) cis lesbian who they cant call a slur and misgender and act like Im not included because of that weird "no uterus no opinion" thing they keep saying...because I have one! And I have an opinion to go with it! The fact of the matter is terfs cant imagine why I'm not "like them" and it shatters their belief that every cis lesbian secretly believes their bullshit but "cant say so" because "the trans cult will tear them down"

Not my problem you dont have reading comprehension. Not my problem you think me deleting the 80th "ur dumb" comment in a row is somehow not a reasonable thing to do. Not my problem you terfs dont have lives outside of the internet and cant see that other people have experiences you dont share. Not one single terf reblogged any of my additions to this post and this one will be no different. They will just keep reblogging the original with their dumb fuckin comments attached acting like I got owned or something because a bunch of transphobes saw "gender starts at conception", a belief yall do definitely have, and said "haha no it doesnt! Check mate!" Like you really did something

And if you dont think you believe that then ill ask and maybe this time get an answer... if gender, according to terfs, is determined by chromosomes, and chromosomes develop fully in the womb...... and you cant change the gender "you're born with".... then When, Pray Tell, do you think gender starts? That's conception babey!!!! You believe it begins at conception! That's not a reach that's just a thing you believe and the number of you saying otherwise is starting to bother me because theres NO explanation why you would think otherwise. The post doesnt say "terfs are pro life" it says "I think terfs are basically pro life". As in. Not far from it. Which given what I JUST said, makes sense, right?

God, will there ever be a terf on earth that learns to read? Nah, they just think eugenics is cool and fun and that if you're not the western european standard of female you're not good enough :) hope this clears it up for you

Also that entire last paragraph makes no sense unfortunately, are you trying to shoehorn in a racism accusation for.... deleting terf shit? Gonna try to break it down a bit:

"Claiming women are responsible for/enjoy their own oppression"........ okay already you lost me I have no idea where you got that from. I literally dont. I never said any of those words at any point in this and deleting useless comments isnt claiming anything except that the comments were useless. The word "enjoy" wasnt even used like?? Theres no context clues I can use to find where you got it from its literally not a thing I said at all? Look I don't understand that. Obviously you're right it would be bad to say that. Good thing I didnt say it? And yeah it would be bad to say that to poc? Good thing I also didnt say that either? Lol? I almost feel like you commented on the wrong post. You just entirely made up a problem to be mad at lol stay mad or whatever I'm not responsible for your feelings

How long until terfs become pro life tbh

tbh i already consider em pro life. constantly talking about gender starts at conception shit, ya know. its literally not even a full half step away from full blown alt right

[transfemdiscourse]

Are Terfs Fascists?

Well the answer is more complicated than yes or no, but it is true that TERF has a lot of elements of fascism present in it. Any sort of political movement that isn’t based around concrete goals beyond “exclude X” is going to be pretty fascy.

Here I want to talk about the sort of things TERFs and fascists on the internet have in common and whether or not that means people should punch TERFs.

Goals

While TERFs certainly don’t share all the same goals with fascists they do hate one of the same group of people, and frequently use the same methods to bully members of that group of people when they get the opportunity. The general theory among fascists is that transgender people are degenerates, and their proliferation weakens masculinity, and that the strength of society is dependent upon masculinity.

I don’t think most radfems will say that the strength of society is dependent upon masculinity, but that comes with a lot of cynicism when there are some of them that do unironically say that. 

So regardless of what your thoughts are on the matter you have to agree that sharing verbatim points of view with fascists is a bad look. Especially for a political groundswell that has so many lesbians in it.

Including the person in that video I just linked. Like, really? Okay I’m moving on but really? alright, im moving on

However TERFs do generally believe that trans women should be excluded from feminism, and many of them also believe that trans people should be excluded from the gay community. Many of them believe that this would lead to nobody being trans. It wouldn’t but that’s what they believe.

Their usual justification for this is that the existence of trans people is insulting in some way to women, that in reality trans women are just men who have a mental illness (another fascist talking point), that feminism is for women only, and that therefore the existence of trans women in feminism erodes the credibility and strength of it.

I didn’t make that up, that’s what I’ve heard and read from terfs.

So no, it doesn’t have all the same sorts of specific points but it does share the same basic belief.

“These people make us weaker and so we must get rid of them.”

It’s hard not to see fascist logic in that, possibly because it’s definitely there.

Identity

Most TERFs aren’t concerned with the purity of the white race. Whew, well that’s something. Is that necessary for a fascist movement? Could TERFs be carrying elements of fascism from other points of view into feminism?

A lot of the critique toward radical feminism in general has been that the school of thought has mostly been informed by the perspective of privileged middle to upper class white women, who were the first to be afforded a point of view at all in feminist discourse. Naturally a lot of these people turn out in retrospect to be racist eugenicists.

And to that I just have to say,

huh.

well, but...

... oh.

... so

In order for a movement to be fascist it has to coalesce around a single identity. There are elements of terf that are trying to make “womyn born womyn” that identity but AFAB women are as diverse as the sun is large so that hasn’t really worked.

There is a particular niche of female identity that has seemed to successfully coalesce into an exclusionary community, and that is

Yes many feminists have noticed that lesbian TERFs have become something of a creature unto themselves. It’s become an insular community on tumblr with a few similar interests including

1- vulvas

2- bullying me

The notion is basically that AFAB women have a unique experience, and the lesbians thereof are tired of you constantly trying to get them to touch gross transgender genitals.

A response that is unfortunately popular among transfeminists is, cmon

just try it

cmon...

It’s kind of a hippie notion, usually responded to by screeching “you’re a rapist” over and over. The belief that if terfs just rose above their sexual hangups that they would see the world in a new way and realize that everyone should love everybody and that society should be one big warm orgy is...

i mean, i appreciate your being a hippy but no, they won’t

they just wont

I’ll open that whole can of worms later trust me.

TERFbians have taken that central premise and extrapolated it to two basic points.

1- Lesbianism is a political statement against the patriarchy.

2-Trans women are men attempting to trick you into abandoning that political statement and soiling your pure vulva with wiener.

Now they’ve not only forged a political identity, but they’ve portrayed their opponents as people whose existence is an attack on that identity.

Which is a pretty fascist thing to do.

Tactics

The most concerning thing to me about TERF is the tactics they use. The bullying is well documented, you don’t need me to prove that TERFs are bullies. We know already.

We all know. It’s a bad look, TERFs. It just doesn’t look good. Fascists are bullies and when you bully people you look like a fascist. It’s just not a good look.

Here I want to talk briefly about how TERFs are aware that they look bad, similar to how fascists are aware they look bad, and freely use deceptive techniques to get around being identified as TERFs so they can continue bullying people and indoctrinating others.

For starters you’ve probably heard at least one TERF respond to the label TERF by saying

“TERF is a lesbophobic slur”

This is an example of two clever techniques common to internet fascism being used at once. First of all they’re moving away from toxic labels that make people not want to listen to them, they’re not “TERFs” they’re “Radfems” or they’re not “Radfems” they’re “Gender critical”. This reads pretty similar to how nazis aren’t “nazis” they’re “white nationalists” or “alt right”.

The second technique is moving the goalpost, a technique that turns out to be very effective against liberals. The idea is that it’s a dumb thing to say, and that means a liberal is going to try to educate you. A transfem will see that and start explaining how words work because clearly you’ve missed the memo.

What that transfem isn’t getting is that you’ve just indicated that all TERFs are lesbians and that all lesbians are TERFs which isn’t true. In getting the transfem to debate you on how words work they’ve unknowingly agreed to a faulty premise that assists the TERF in consolidating their identity, which is much more important than actually winning any arguments.

Additionally TERFs love dogwhistles. Let’s take a look at a popular one

“Women deserve spaces free from men”

Most normal people who aren’t paranoid internet goblins like me will see that and go “Yea! Free the women! :)” and I just want you to know that I don’t hate you at all but it is frustrating to see you spreading that talking point.

When they say ‘men’ they don’t mean men they mean trans women, they’re misgendering trans women as a dogwhistle. TERFs will see that and know what it means, they’ll know they mean trans women when they say ‘men’ because there is no movement trying to get men identified men into women’s shelters except TERFs now that you mention it.

Once they’ve identified you as agreeing on that point then they will talk to you about what a “man” is and attempt to indoctrinate you, which was their goal the whole time.

So do I punch terfs or not???

if you’re a trans person it can be pretty scary seeing how prevalent TERF really is. It’s not a majority of feminists, or a majority of lesbians, but TERFs are passionate and loud people and insert themselves readily into wherever people let them go.

And there are no rules against TERF rhetoric on youtube or tumblr or reddit.

So I could say to you “No, use discourse, reason will win” but the reality is that reason doesn’t always win and if it looks like reason isn’t winning then it’s probably scary to you if you’re part of the group of people TERFs want to eliminate.

On the other hand if your goal is to convince people that you’re not a secret undercover man out to destroy feminism putting your fist in the face of someone who calls themselves a feminist isn’t the best way to do that.

The reality is that the presence of TERFs can have a silencing effect. TERFs are always ready to provide you their point of view, but rarely willing to be open minded to others. TERFs will readily bully people if they god forbid find a trans person that isn’t a model, and if you do get them to engage you and you do make good points then often they’ll just fall back on trying to bully you, and if you’re not the kind of person who can be bullied they’ll just pretend that you are and call it a day.

And then go take that anger out on someone who they can actually hurt

When trans people are threatened out of speaking at public events they usually comply because they don’t want anyone to get hurt on their behalf. It’s true that TERFs when they’re not the ones in danger are very quick to jump to violence and the threat of violence as a silencing tactic against people they disagree with.

And certainly if you ever meet a violent terf that is actively trying to harm trans people using force then by all means attack away.

Additionally these same terfs will ready avoid actively engaging anyone on any sort of intellectual point, they’ll backpedal and evade all day until they find someone that they actually think they can bully or indoctrinate. I’ve seen TERFs that actually have their disinterest in debating put right next to their interest in educating people on TERF.

Someone who will educate but not debate isn’t an educator, they’re a cult leader, and they’re the people you should be most concerned about.

At the same time I have a lot of problems with the way trans people and allies talk about this sort of thing on tumblr. Many of them relish and condone violence against TERFs which is a dangerous thing. Even if we do acknowledge that violence is sometimes necessary to avoid complacency against more harmful insidious nonviolent forms of bigotry, we do need to still acknowledge that violence is bad and that sadism is creepy.

So as a critical thinker I would say to you, person who is interested enough to actually read through all this, that while I certainly don’t blame you for closing your eyes when some immense shitty degeneracy discourse having dingbat gets slugged, it’s not how you should elect to respond to TERFs in general.

There will always be people who are passionate enough to act but not smart enough to articulate, and you do not have to be one of those people. Rather, you should take note that what sent fascists back into the shadows was not punching Richard Spencer, but public shaming and backlash.

For your part, you should mostly be focused on saving people who are still being educated from miseducation. To this end, I’ll write up a short playbook for you, but for now let’s return to my original question.

Are TERFs fascists?

Kinda

Edits: Fixed some errors, radfems hate one of the same groups of people as fascists not all of them.

Update: Members of the radfem community have informed me that sometimes when one is bisexual or deviates from the norm in terms of opinion that they’re viewed as lesser women by their peers.

Which i mean, come on guys. that’s a bad look. you can’t be a critical thinking movement and ideological authoritarians at the same time ladies. come on

[oocneoblog]

Receipts

[[A lot of the vagueposts are missing, simply because I never thought it would have to come to this. By this point, I’m not even looking for an apology. It’s too late for that. Make of these receipts what you will, but hopefully you’ll understand why the tag has become such an unsafe place to me and my moirail.]]

[18/06/2015 20:04:15] *** ყøŘıck 👻 would like to add you on Skype

Hi, I'd like to connect with you on Skype. ***

[18/06/2015 20:04:23] *** Ted has shared contact details with 💎 yaakov. ***

[25/06/2015 20:43:36] ყøŘıck 👻: teddy bear what are your pronouns

i was using they for you but idw do that if you actually use something else srr

[25/06/2015 20:44:08] Ted: usually I go with "they" but sometimes I go with "ey" to avoid confusion with plurals

---

[06/09/2015 00:56:08] yorick ☁: hey can you. not namedrop shelby on my post, shelby has sent me messages picking on me when i have breakdowns and calls me "aggressive" and i have her blocked and i wanted to keep the post vague.

[06/09/2015 00:57:01] Ted: Ah, okay. I didn't realise you had her blocked now. She vented to me about vagueblogging in the past is all.

[06/09/2015 00:58:59] yorick ☁: yeah she and her group of friends have been really hurtful to me and idk

[06/09/2015 00:59:13] Ted: what group of friends?

[06/09/2015 01:01:13] yorick ☁: asheton, tiff, and idk if she's friends with meow but meow was really not great to me

[06/09/2015 01:02:16] Ted: yeah, I understand

[06/09/2015 01:02:45] Ted: haven't seen her interact with those people lately but I respect you and i'll try not to mention her around you

[06/09/2015 01:10:22] Ted: i think that might have come out badly, I've been having to write a lot of complicated thoughts down today and it's tired me out

[06/09/2015 01:10:40] Ted: but, like, i understand

[06/09/2015 01:18:40] yorick ☁: yeah its ok

[21/11/2015 00:23:03] 🌴 yorick: HAPPY BIRTHD 🎂

[21/11/2015 00:23:52] Ted: Yay! Thank you!!!

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01/02/2016

devotedslothminion: who was it?

nosh-o-matic: idk if im comfortable saying because you're friends with them and idrw you telling them what i said

nosh-o-matic: idk you can probably deduce who i'm talking about but person in question reblogs from this blog (screenshots bcs i have that blog blocked) http://kumbricprince.tumblr.com/post/131251859912/since-they-have-me-blocked-heres-the-nonsense and other radfems who are anti-trans & anti-sex worker, plus the lovely post they just reblogged about menstruation specifically refers to a law found in the torah and afaik they're not jewish

devotedslothminion: ah, i'm working on the terf thing btw

like, i don't want to say why but there's some stuff you don't know about that's kind of basically making her afraid of everything right now

it wasn't clear to me that it was talking about the torah

devotedslothminion: i just want to say, just because someone reblogs a specific thing they relate to from a person, doesn't mean they share all the views of that person

devotedslothminion: i mean that in a reassuring way, btw

nosh-o-matic: i don't believe sympathizing with violent transmisogynists is okay especially if what they're sympathizing with is specifically anti-jew? like i don't need to know what's going on in her personal life but having personal reasons to nod her head in agreement with people who think transness is a cult and jewish traditions are disgusting doesn't make me comfortable with it

devotedslothminion: it's not anti-religious to criticise sexism in religious practices. like, i say this as someone who identifies as religious. sometimes you're just following someone because you're curious about their viewpoint and what made them that way.

and, like, you don't need to force yourself to feel comfortable with someone if you don't want to

devotedslothminion: a lot of our viewpoints on a group are based on our sole experience of that group, which may or may not be indicative of the whole

idk, i'm probably just stressing you out. i'm sorry.

nosh-o-matic: jews are a marginalized group so i will never believe it's okay for nonjews to criticize the torah? this isn't about religion as a whole... it's about judaism and i am v stressed out that someone i used to talk to on the daily is putting antisemitic stuff on my dash

devotedslothminion: like, i personally don't see how it was antisemitic but because i'm not jewish i take your word for it

like, idk what specified it as an attack against the torah specifically as opposed to christian tradition

because i'm not jewish

nosh-o-matic: the tenakh & torah (the old testament) are first and foremost jewish because christians appropriated the entire tenakh from us despite saying in the new testament that the old testament is obsolete. everything in the "old testament" is the tenakh and it's jewish

if that makes sense

devotedslothminion: the first christians were also jewish though? like, it was their culture and there's stories in there that were important to them, especially for context. (also, i've never been told that the old testament was obsolete, and i've seen a lot of christians quoting it)

devotedslothminion: paul the apostle was hesitant about sharing christianity with non-jews at first, so i don't know if it's right to call it appropriation when it was willingly shared and spread

nosh-o-matic: the first christians were EX jews who put their faith in a messiah that jews don't believe in plus modern christians are not descendents of ancient christians or jews in any way so i don't see what this has to do with me not wanting non-jews to criticize the torah

devotedslothminion: and yet god spoke to them

nosh-o-matic: i'm sorry but whst youre saying sounds like 'christians and christian-raised atheists can't be antisemitic because 2000 years ago the first christians were ex-jewish converts'

devotedslothminion: no, i'm not saying that

what you're saying sounds like non-jews who convert to judaism cannot identify as jews because they are not descended from ancient jews

nosh-o-matic: that's literally not what i'm saying, all jewish converts regardless of race/ethnicity are just as jewish as ethnic jews. i'm saying that ethnic jews who convert to christianity are not an authority on judaism, which literally doesn't matter anyway because this conversation sprung up because gabby reblogged something antisemitic despite not being ethnically or religiously jewish

nosh-o-matic: you kept saying "ill take your word for it because i'm not jewish" yet you're telling me what i should be okay with based on the writings in the new testament that aren't even a part of my faith

devotedslothminion: no i'm not, i don't see how you're taking that from what i'm saying

nosh-o-matic: can we move this to skype

devotedslothminion: if you want

---

[02/01/2016 19:06:11] 🌴 yorick: so the reason i'm getting this

"you kept saying "ill take your word for it because i'm not jewish" yet you're telling me what i should be okay with based on the writings in the new testament that aren't even a part of my faith"

is because you're telling me that based on the origins of christianity, written by ex-jews, in a book that isn't part of my faith, i shouldn't call christians using jewish texts as part of their faith appropriative because it was part of the culture of the first christians because they were ethnically jewish

and like, yeah, it was part of THEIR culture, but modern christians have no direct ties with ancient ones - modern christians are not jewish. (jewish converts ARE jewish because despite their not being of jewish ethnicity, they're spiritually jewish and are welcomed into the culture after going through the steps for conversion)

christianity as it exists is the belief that the laws of the torah (the mosaic law found in leviticus etc) are outdated and no longer meant to be observed because of jesus (who i do not believe in because i am jewish) being sacrificed for everyone's sins

it is anti-semitic for a christian/ex-christian to criticize the laws of the torah because christians believe those laws are obsolete

those laws are not christian, they're jewish

does that make sense

[02/01/2016 19:07:39] Ted: okay, I see your point, but I disagree that believing in jesus as the messiah made the early Christians non-Jewish.

[02/01/2016 19:09:27] Ted: they would have still identified as jews because they believed that it was a fulfilment of god's previous promises, citing prophecies in jewish scripture. the old testament is needed to give a full picture of Christianity, as without it, the new testament would have no context. do you see my point?

[02/01/2016 19:12:34] 🌴 yorick: that doesn't change the fact that the torah is jewish and jewish ONLY

this entire conversation sprung up because christians and christian-raised atheists believe it's okay to criticize JEWISH practices as long as they wrongly call them christian

[02/01/2016 19:24:27 | Edited 19:24:23] Ted: (I'm typing something up on my laptop but in the meantime I need to go eat something bc ny body's telling me it's low on sugar)

[02/01/2016 19:25:01] 🌴 yorick: aight

[02/01/2016 21:05:50] Ted: a lot of modern day Christians also follow those practices, which I think is what you were referring to with the appropriation comment earlier? (this is my understanding after having thought on it and what you've said since)

in a lot of places, said Christians appropriating ancient jewish laws/practices have undue influence on the power structures of society, and use these appropriated laws/customs to marginalise people they feel they can get away with stomping on. a criticism of the torah in that respect is supposed to reflect on that inappropriate deployment of those customs by the power-hungry, and on the nature of sexism in society as it currently is.

because many of us live in so-called Christian countries, criticising the power structure inherently involves criticising those laws that are falsely used to justify subjugation of the oppressed.

[02/01/2016 21:10:15] 🌴 yorick: there are plenty of people who are actually jewish who are already criticizing sexism in the torah so why is it necessary for goys to get involved you keep telling me what's okay to be upset with and what's not but i'm actually jewish and this upsets me

[02/01/2016 21:10:54] Ted: i'm not saying it's not okay to be upset. i'm sorry. I was just trying to make you feel better.

[02/01/2016 21:13:45] 🌴 yorick: i genuinely appreciate you trying to make me feel better but im also just not really comfrted by being goysplained to about the origins of christianity ykno

[02/01/2016 21:14:42] Ted: i was trying to explain the place people are coming from since you seemed upset and confused

[02/01/2016 21:14:56] Ted: i'm sorry if i misread the situation

[02/01/2016 21:16:14] Ted: the people making those posts don't necessarily think anything against Judaism was all i was trying to explain, and i hoped that might be of some comfort

[02/01/2016 21:22:15] 🌴 yorick: that's the problem though, that christians are the ones everyone automatically thinks of when they read the torah even though the torah is completely indisputably jewish and NOT christian

like that video where a bunch of non-muslim goys disguised a bible as a qu'ran and read from the OLD testament to prove that "christianity is violent"

that was antisemitic

the tanakh isn't christian, it is jewish and i'm uncomfortable with goys unloading criticism onto jewish texts when jews are a marginalized group and face the highest percentage of religious hate crime (62.4% of all religious hate crime in the US alone is anti-semitic hate crime)

and they will always get away with it too because they can use the same excuse "the old testament is actuslly christian"

[02/01/2016 21:23:35] Ted: i think in this case it was more that people had been quoted those verses to justify their suffering and so are lashing out against that, but i do see your point

[02/01/2016 21:25:28] Ted: like, there's going to have to be a balance at some point and idk what to say, but you're right that the root problem is appropriation

[02/01/2016 21:25:45] Ted: sorry that i made you have to explain all of that

---

[03/01/2016 03:57:02] Ted: Okay so gabby saw that vaguepost and now she's suicidal again great.

[03/01/2016 03:58:59] 🌴 yorick: i'm to blame for reacting when someone triggers me??? i also specifically told you i didn't want you to tell her when i was talking to you earlier so thanks for that

[03/01/2016 04:01:00] Ted: You didn't say that at all to my memory. You can choose to react by talking to someone you trust about it instead of making someone terrified they're going to have their name dragged through the dirt over something that ultimately wasn't their fault.

[03/01/2016 04:03:06] 🌴 yorick: my very first message to you was "idk if im comfortable saying because you're friends with them and idrw you telling them what i said"

how am i supposed to talk to someone i trust about ANYTHI G WHEN LITERALLY ALL OF YOU TALK SHIT ABOUT ME TO EACH OTHER BEHIND MY BACK? WHENEVER I HAVE ANY KIND OF EMOTIONAL REACTION EVERYONE GOES OFF AND WHISPERS ABOUT ME WITH THEIR CLIQUES

[03/01/2016 04:05:29] Ted: Sometimes it's hard being yelled at even if you know it's probably not that they hate you. Sometimes you need emotional support. Also, I didn't say anything that you'd said about her, only vaguely mentioned the subject matter being about appropriation of Judaism by christians.

[03/01/2016 04:09:04] 🌴 yorick: why doesn't everyone just fucking leave me alone everyon expects me to have pristine reactions to everything and then when i don't people hate me whenni didn't do ANYTHING EXCEPT DEFEND MYSELF

[03/01/2016 04:10:59] Ted: No one was attacking you this time. Vagueposts can be catastrophic when read by the wrong person, which is why I generally respond to them. I don't hate you, yorick.

[03/01/2016 04:13:21] 🌴 yorick: really because NOBODY GIVES A SHIT WHEN I SELF HARM BUT THEN WHEN I'M TRIGGERED BY SOMEONE I THOUGHT WAS MY FRIEND HSVING VIEWSS THAT LET ME KNOW THEY HATE ME IT'S MY FAULT THAT THEY'RE SUICIDAL AND I'M GARBAGE WHEN I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING

[03/01/2016 04:17:11] 🌴 yorick: I DIDN'T ASK TO BE GUILT TRIPPED ABOUT BEING UPSET ABJOUT SOMETHING THAT SHE WOULDN'T HAVE EVER SEEN IF YOU HADN'T SAID ANYTHING TO HER BUT HERE WE ARE FINE IT'S ALL MY FAULT AND I'M THE ONE WHO'S GUILTY LIKE ALWAYS

[03/01/2016 04:18:01] Ted: Why do you think she wouldn't have seen it?

[03/01/2016 04:18:41] 🌴 yorick: I BLOCKED HER & WHY WOULD SHE HAVE BEEN ON MY BLOG????

[03/01/2016 04:19:38] Ted: The only reason it was gabby I vented to is because literally everyone else is too busy ignoring me.

[03/01/2016 04:22:07] 🌴 yorick: leave me aloneyou don't care about me whatsoever you didnt listen when i told you not to tell gabhy what i was telling YOU ONLY and you didn't care about any of what i was saying either you only talked to me so you could spill everything to gabby and tell her HEY YORICK HATES YOU!!!

[03/01/2016 04:24:20] Ted: No, that's not true. I don't understand internet acronyms all that well and I was low on blood sugar at the time so my reading comprehension was shot.

[03/01/2016 04:26:44] 🌴 yorick: well whatevwr either way its literally all my fault i made gabby feel vad with my disgusting trans sex worker jew self and i should kms because yoa and ga bby would be so much happier and then you can tslk aboit me all you want

[03/01/2016 04:27:12] Ted: No, that's not true either.

[03/01/2016 04:29:12] Ted: I'm sorry that I don't talk to you all that often when it's not about social justice topics and things, but I do respect you, and I do like you. That's why I try to help.

[03/01/2016 04:31:32] Ted: Evidently I'm not that good at helping you feel better. Maybe it would be better if we just stopped talking, but... I do like you and I want you to be happy and feel safe.

[03/01/2016 04:33:25] 🌴 yorick: Ted - Today 10:57 PM

> Okay so gabby saw that vaguepost and now she's suicidal again great.

well thanks a bunvh this really helped me feel better when i already self harmed yesterday because i was sick with worry that one of my other friends hated me because i told her i love her and now SHE SAID SHE'S TALKING TO GABBY TOO SO SHE REALLY HATES ME NOW THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS

[03/01/2016 04:36:52] Ted: Can you just... Not vaguepost about people I'm friends with? That would solve a lot, actually.

[03/01/2016 04:39:57] Ted: If you could talk to someone not involved instead, that would be better because it wouldn't put unnecessary tension on people trying to balance both friendships.

[03/01/2016 04:44:38] Ted: I try to help everyone, and sometimes that means pointing out destructive behavioural patterns. That's what my psychologists have done for me in the past and a lot of my friends have found it helpful.

[03/01/2016 04:47:25] 🌴 yorick: fine next time i find out someone who i thought i was friends with literally hates trans people jews and sex workers i'll just keep my damn mouth shut since everything isMY FAULT and im an asshole for having narcissistic perrsonslity disorder and no empathy and now i know that you can't keep a secret when i literally deal every day with people hating me because im trans and jewish and fuck off with pretending you care about me whatsoever you're just being nice because you want me to say yes sir!!! and delete all the posts about gabby so fuckign fine you get your wish

[03/01/2016 04:49:09] Ted: Gabby doesn't hate trans people, she's scared of a certain someone who isn't you and was bad to her. I talk about my transition that I'm going through all the time with her.

[03/01/2016 04:49:24] Ted: And I doubt she hates Jewish people either.

[03/01/2016 04:55:42] 🌴 yorick: mom abused me my entire childhood but that doesn't mean i get to announce to the world that i hate women and FUCK OFF WITH CALLING ME DESTRUCTIVE AND CRAZY LEAVE ME ALONE

[03/01/2016 04:56:13] Ted: I didn't call you destructive or crazy.

[03/01/2016 04:57:20] Ted: Sometimes we develop coping mechanisms that may or may not be harmful to ourselves and others in the end.

[03/01/2016 08:03:38] *** Ted blocked 💎 yaakov ***

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[03/01/2016 04:53:46] Clare 🐻: Hey Ted can I talk to you

[03/01/2016 04:54:03] Ted: Yeah.

[03/01/2016 04:55:00] Ted: I know yorick thinks everyone hates them and I'm sorry for causing all of this. I'm trying to make it up but idk.

[03/01/2016 04:56:38] Clare 🐻: Right now I think they're most upset about you apparently saying they're destructive and should see a therapist?

[03/01/2016 04:57:53] Ted: "I try to help everyone, and sometimes that means pointing out destructive behavioural patterns. That's what my psychologists have done for me in the past and a lot of my friends have found it helpful."

[03/01/2016 04:58:55] Ted: A lot of this has been basically me talking calmly trying to explain that I'm not trying to attack them with words.

[03/01/2016 04:59:16] Ted: And that nobody else is tbh.

[03/01/2016 05:02:03] Clare 🐻: What do you mean by calmly

[03/01/2016 05:02:24] Clare 🐻: Like just no yelling, or being super zen

[03/01/2016 05:03:00] Ted: The first bit was emotional, the next not so much.

[03/01/2016 05:03:50] Ted: I am feeling pretty Zen right now but that's probably because I'm tired out from the meltdown I had earlier.

[03/01/2016 05:04:12] Ted: Insomnia yaaaay

[03/01/2016 05:06:15] Ted: I'm such a piece of shit friend, no wait. I know that's not true. I'm a great friend but sometimes I make catastrophic mistakes and it leads to situations like this where I have to argue about things that may exist or may not, but if they do then only pathetically.

[03/01/2016 05:09:49] Clare 🐻: Things that may exist or may not?

[03/01/2016 05:10:17] Ted: Gabby's supposed transphobia or antisemitism

[03/01/2016 05:11:03] Ted: Like, there's no way she's a threat. She cares too much and I'm too on the ball.

[03/01/2016 05:11:52] Clare 🐻: So you mean like, if she is antisemetic or transphobic, it's to such a low degree that it doesn't matter?

[03/01/2016 05:14:44] Ted: Pretty much. Like, I talk about being trans all the time. I'm going for transition and gabby is supportive. And I'm pretty sure she's not antisemitic, just anti-abrahamic maybe but it's for valid reasons. We've talked about theology and she knows that a few verses aren't indicative of a whole religion and its followers because she knows me as an example of a christian and I've talked about christians I know.

[03/01/2016 05:16:59 | Edited 05:16:58] Ted: Like, not that it doesn't matter but that it doesn't automatically affect how she views someone who belongs to those groups.

[03/01/2016 05:29:26] Clare 🐻: Well I understand where you're coming from but I worry that it's dangerous to ignore low degrees of prejudice--as I understand it gabby's only instance of transphobia is her radfem leanings, but in itself that's still enough to make a lot of trans people really uncomfortable really fast.

Obviously it's at the discretion of every individual, and I don't mean to imply gabby isn't a good friend to you--just that however you perceive her views it's clear that Yorick doesn't share that perception, and feels unsafe talking to her

however you feel about Yorick and their beliefs (from what I understand there was a respectful disagreement earlier?) i think you really hurt their feelings with the destructive behavior/therapy stuff, even if that wasn't your intent--they feel like you're saying they're destructive, or like they're not worth listening to, I think

[03/01/2016 05:31:15] Ted: And I have since explained that that was not what I was saying. I have been challenging gabby on her terf leanings consistently since they came to light, something I have also said to yorick.

[03/01/2016 05:34:05] Clare 🐻: Could you tell me what you were saying or trying to say

I'm getting a lot of third person info ;;

[03/01/2016 05:36:07] Ted: I don't have access to tumblr im at the moment.

[03/01/2016 05:36:40] Ted: I also can't copy more than one message at a time from skype.

[03/01/2016 05:37:13] Clare 🐻: Oh I just meant could you like. Paraphrase

[03/01/2016 05:38:34] Ted: Like as far as I can remember I said "I'm working on the terf thing" and what yorick's been accusing gabby of is that she outright hates trans people and jews

[03/01/2016 05:42:14] Ted: I've never seen her reblog anything overtly terf or antisemitic. (yorick and I disagreed on the antisemitism inherent in this one post, which is what started the argument basically because I didn't understand what they were getting at. I do now understand what they were getting at but I feel like it was more just antisemitic by association than overtly antisemitic as they were portraying)

[03/01/2016 05:43:14] Clare 🐻: So like, antisemetic via anti-Abrahamic religion

[03/01/2016 05:43:20] Ted: A lot of my beef with yorick is about their skewed portrayal of people's views, which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't so public about it.

[03/01/2016 05:43:22] Ted: Yeah.

[03/01/2016 05:43:30] Ted: Exactly.

[03/01/2016 05:43:41] Clare 🐻: So public about it?

[03/01/2016 05:44:28 | Edited 05:46:23] Ted: Vagueposting publicly. Gabby felt like she was being called out for views she doesnt have and that's why she deleted and started contemplating suicide.

[03/01/2016 05:45:37 | Edited 05:46:44] Ted: I should have used better judgement in that case but i really did not know that this would happen because of one vent.

[03/01/2016 05:48:16] Ted: Yorick expects me to have perfect judgment and automatically know 100% their current status with all known friends.

[03/01/2016 05:49:01] Ted: And if I make a mistake well obviously I hate them and agree with every single one of their enemies.

[03/01/2016 05:51:48] Clare 🐻: Mm, and I think yorick feels like you were blaming them for making gabby suicidal when you talked earlier?

My perspective is like

the whole point of vagueblogging is that it doesn't call the person out

I think with Yorick it's less about making mistakes and more about owning up to them and trying to better, which is their big beef with gabby--like as I understand it Yorick doesn't see you as an enemy, but as a friend, which is why what they interpreted you as having said hurt them as much as it did. Like you still care about them, right?

[03/01/2016 05:53:44] Ted: Yeah, of course. But vagueposting is inherently risky and can often feel manipulative if it's obvious who it's about.

[03/01/2016 05:55:09] Ted: When you're being yelled at it's hard not to feel attacked. And when I get yelled at I go into my self-preservation mode to stop me from going back into that spiral of depression, psychosos and anxiety.

[03/01/2016 05:55:56] Ted: And that involves instantly dismissing any criticism until I'm in a state where I can think clearly.

[03/01/2016 05:57:31] Ted: I would never vaguepost to a community about a member of that community - especially a friend. I've always seen more harm than good come from a vaguepost.

[03/01/2016 06:02:42] Clare 🐻: Idk I think there's a certain merit in vagueblogging, as a way to blow off steam without Starting Shit--like this was all on yoricks main right? So not even in the community

That being said I get what you mean about the dynamic that emerges when it's obvious who's being talked about--but nobody is guiltless of that in this case

[03/01/2016 06:03:14] Ted: Actually it was on their neoblog - I don't follow their main.

[03/01/2016 06:03:41] Clare 🐻: Oh whoops. Scratch that then

[03/01/2016 06:05:04] Ted: They've vagueposted before about a friend of mine in terms that made their identity clearly obvious to anyone in the neotag who had been paying attention to their dashboards lately.

[03/01/2016 06:07:09] Ted: On their neoblog.

[03/01/2016 06:08:45] Ted: And you know what set off my argument with archiie - a vaguepost.

[03/01/2016 06:10:18] Ted: In those cases all it does is serve to turn the person who was vagueposted about into the aggressor, whether they were or not to begin with.

[03/01/2016 06:14:18] Clare 🐻: What would you recommend instead though?

[03/01/2016 06:14:41] Ted: Venting to an uninvolved party.

[03/01/2016 06:15:46] Ted: Which can help to clear your head and give you perspective, as well as confirmation when required.

[03/01/2016 06:22:36] Clare 🐻: What if there isn't an uninvolved party

[03/01/2016 06:23:56] Ted: Then you just gotta bite the bullet and talk to someone who is involved. Vagueposting when everyone is involved is a recipe for disaster.

[03/01/2016 06:30:54] Clare 🐻: I agree with the vagueblogging part but not the talking to someone involved part, like you were venting to gabby earlier right? And it turned into this clusterfuck of a situation. Would you not vagueblog about it if you could go back in time?

[03/01/2016 06:32:00] Ted: Idk, I needed to vent to someone. I didn't tell her about the vaguepost because i knew that would upset her.

[03/01/2016 06:32:29] Ted: I was going towards a meltdown. I need to vent when that is the case.

[03/01/2016 06:33:42] Ted: It was partly also so she didn't think I was ignoring her, because she's been on a dangerous self-loathing streak lately.

[03/01/2016 06:37:18] Clare 🐻: Yeah I can understand that

Idk I just think vagueblogging or even like, making a Facebook status are a lot less liable to cause trouble, but that's just based on my experiences, & where I think Yorick was at earlier

[03/01/2016 06:39:55] Ted: My sister's ex girlfriend once vagueposted about her on facebook and some of my sister's friends liked it because they didn't have context, but my sister saw it and basically had a mental breakdown over it.

[03/01/2016 06:41:19] Ted: Had I not been there to jump in as defender, it would have lead to another suicide attempt.

[03/01/2016 06:43:24] Ted: There's a difference between vagueblogging to vent and vagueblogging to manipulate. With the latter, people do it so they know that their mutual friends don't hate them for their falling out with the other person, which can be very helpful to know but can be seriously damaging to the other person.

[03/01/2016 06:43:53] Ted: I'm not calling yorick manipulative btw.

[03/01/2016 06:44:08] Ted: I'm talking about a normal human reaction here.

[03/01/2016 06:44:11] Clare 🐻: Ah good I was just about to ask

[03/01/2016 06:47:46] Clare 🐻: to me yoricks initial vagueblogging was just venting

If they wanted support or agreement it would be a lot easier to vague about it in a group chat

& yeah it got progressively more overt but they were basically blogging at each other at that point

[03/01/2016 06:48:30] Ted: Gabby's post wasn't in response to yorick's.

[03/01/2016 06:48:41] Ted: That was also my mistake.

[03/01/2016 06:49:53] Ted: Yorick told me they'd unfollowed her, so I figured, like, since it wasn't common knowledge, that particular disagreement... You know?

[03/01/2016 06:50:28] Ted: Also i didn't see what went down on tumblr after I posted my fic.

[03/01/2016 06:51:21] Ted: She needed to vent.

[03/01/2016 06:51:37] Ted: Man I'm such a hypocrite.

[03/01/2016 06:52:00] Ted: I didn't know that yorick would be checking her blog either.

[03/01/2016 06:52:21] Ted: They told me they'd unfollowed, so I assumed that was it.

[03/01/2016 06:52:43] Ted: Gabby's been afraid of yorick for quite a while.

[03/01/2016 06:53:43] Ted: I shouldn't have mentioned them at all. But can you see why I don't want to tell yorick my reasoning in what mistake I made?

[03/01/2016 06:54:21] Ted: To tell them that gabby was afraid of them would cause very bad things.

[03/01/2016 06:55:26] Ted: I'm usually so good at the mediation thing, giving people space to vent.

[03/01/2016 06:56:18] Ted: It's when I'm yelled at for trying to explain a different point of view that I just close up and end up needing to vent myself, which makes me part of the problem.

[03/01/2016 06:56:49] Ted: I forgot the circles of crisis, support inwards dump outwards.

[03/01/2016 06:57:10] Ted: I guess I didn't have anyone else to dump onto at the time.

[03/01/2016 06:58:41] Ted: Everything's shit now.

[03/01/2016 06:59:13] Ted: It's my stupid fault for caring.

[03/01/2016 07:08:37] Ted: No it's not. Idk. Caring is useful. I feel numb. On the one hand I know I'm entitled to be upset by this but on the other my cbt kicks in and tells me I don't have to be upset so I just... I just...

[03/01/2016 07:32:43] Clare 🐻: Hey now. I don't think it's anybody's fault. You couldn't have foreseen this, and it's better to vent than keep it all inside.

Everybody involved is really upset and you're all blaming yourselves but the only thing anybody can do now is apologize, try to learn, and most importantly tend to individual mental health

[03/01/2016 07:33:12] Ted: Hard to do that when someone is vaguely accusing you of being an anti-Semite in their tags.

[03/01/2016 07:33:56] Ted: Tend to individual mental health, I mean.

[03/01/2016 07:38:59] Clare 🐻: Fair point

But it's hard for Yorick to tend their mental health when they perceive antisemitism, too

Idk since I'm catholic I'm inclined to err on the side of shutting up as fast as possible, bc I know shit all about Judaism outside of Passover

Imo it's a lot less stressful to do research than talk to ppl, but I'm an awkward little hermit. So

[03/01/2016 07:39:27] Ted: they are giving the impression (and actually stated to me) that when they call someone an anti-Semite they mean that they hate all jews

[03/01/2016 07:40:09] Ted: oh and now they've changed their skype name to "destructive behaviour"

[03/01/2016 07:40:29] Ted: I cannot

[03/01/2016 07:40:31] Ted: i can't

[03/01/2016 07:40:33] Ted: i

[03/01/2016 07:44:45] Ted: i just want it to stop

[03/01/2016 07:45:15] Ted: everything feels like a stab in the heart

[03/01/2016 07:45:42] Ted: i was going to be okay but now i'm not okay at all

[03/01/2016 07:46:27] Ted: i know they're not doing it to hurt me but

[03/01/2016 07:46:31] Ted: i can't deal with this

[03/01/2016 07:46:56] Ted: i can't do anything i can't block them they'll take it personally

[03/01/2016 07:49:27] Ted: this is primary 2 all over again i can't deal with this

[03/01/2016 08:01:09] Clare 🐻: They're doing it to stab themself in the heart tbqh

They worry a lot about their behavior

[03/01/2016 08:01:14] Clare 🐻: Here you know what

[03/01/2016 08:01:25] Clare 🐻: I'm formally asking you to block them

[03/01/2016 08:03:12] Clare 🐻: I'll let them know I asked, they won't take it personally, and you both take a break to sort through everything individually

[03/01/2016 08:04:29] Ted: i like yorick

[03/01/2016 08:04:41] Ted: how will i know when to unblock them

[03/01/2016 08:06:15] Clare 🐻: I don't know tbh

I'm hoping a sign presents itself

[03/01/2016 08:06:53] Ted: they still think of me as an anti-Semite and probably a transphobe too

[03/01/2016 08:11:20] Clare 🐻: Well I know they don't think you're a transphobe, and idrk what you guys talked about re: religion so I can't comment on the antisemitism but I think mostly they're upset because they think you see them as like a destructive lunatic

Like you're both more conscious of how you think the other person sees you than how you see the other person, if that makes sense

[03/01/2016 08:12:27] Ted: Filed under HOW CAN I CHILL WHEN Y'ALL ARE ANTISEMITES HUH,not neo

[03/01/2016 08:13:57] Ted: and if their standards for gabby and their standards for me are the same, they think i am an anti-Semite and transphobe because i defended someone they see as a terf and an antisemite

[03/01/2016 08:14:43] Ted: i was about to go copy something they said to me in the skype chat but i forgot i blocked them

[03/01/2016 08:17:15] Ted: and i cannot say anything about how they made me feel because they are easily upset and already think that i hate them

[03/01/2016 08:18:05] Ted: idk, i'm going round in circles

---

---

[03/01/2016 15:21:05] Clare 🐻: How are the circles going

[03/01/2016 15:21:49] Ted: I'm talking to yorick again, so it's turned into more of a wiggly line now.

[03/01/2016 15:22:23] Clare 🐻: What's going on w that

[03/01/2016 15:23:35] Ted: From what I gather, they made a possibly half-hearted attempt at suicide and are now freaking out that everyone's going to call them a baby for not following through.

[03/01/2016 15:23:58] Ted: They think that me and gabby and Shelby all hate them because they have npd.

[03/01/2016 15:24:57] Ted: When, even if I did hate them, it wouldn't be for having a mental illness, it would be from their effectively running gabby from the community.

[03/01/2016 15:26:08] Ted: And maybe for yelling at me when I was trying to help, idk. But I can see when someone's having a breakdown while talking to me and I'm more lenient on them usually.

[03/01/2016 15:26:18] Ted: Idk if that makes sense?

[03/01/2016 15:29:55] Ted: I'm not very good with open questions

[03/01/2016 15:43:35] Clare 🐻: To be fair though vagueblogging is hardly running someone from the community

Like Yorick takes things really personally, that's probably the biggest npd thing they do, so to complain about something in what they interpreted as a safe space, and then have all this shit happen, like...

I dunno man, yorick feels like shit and it does seem like a lot of people are shutting the door on them because of their pd, you know? Not you necessarily, idrk what's up with you two, but... People shut them out for stuff that they hate about themselves. You know?

[03/01/2016 15:48:31] Ted: That doesn't make their behaviour any less hurtful though. I feel like I am going to have to step back from my friendship with them because I really cannot deal with being yelled at while I'm having a meltdown and I'm sure they're the same. I don't want to make them feel like I'm yelling at them every time we have a disagreement.

[03/01/2016 15:56:42] Ted: We're just going to keep hurting each other unless something changes.

[03/01/2016 16:00:02] Clare 🐻: I can understand that. & like I get that it's hurtful to be told you're antisemetic or whatever else but I just want you to recognize they aren't saying that to hurt you or to get their way, they're just trying to communicate how deeply antisemitism (real or perceived) from a friend hurts them

And really, I do understand where you're coming from, I just don't think friend-dumping them is the answer here

[03/01/2016 16:00:59] Ted: Do you know why I even asked yorick who they were vagueposting about? Because I thought "wow, that sounds like a really awful person" and I wanted to know who it was so I could avoid them.

[03/01/2016 16:02:07] Clare 🐻: So what does that mean for you and gabby?

[03/01/2016 16:03:19] Ted: That I had to help yorick understand that gabby wasn't being a threat.

[03/01/2016 16:04:06] Ted: That interpretation of the post is what she would have expected everyone to have, which is why she deleted her tumblr and wanted to kill herself.

[03/01/2016 16:05:12] Ted: That's why I wanted to try and help yorick reroute their coping mechanisms into something that isn't going to lose them friends.

[03/01/2016 16:05:57] Ted: It's a destructive feedback loop, which is what I was trying to get at.

[03/01/2016 16:06:29] Ted: Vagueposting about someone in the community is a great way to get people to start taking sides.

[03/01/2016 16:07:44] Ted: And unfortunately for yorick, I'm taking sides with gabby.

[03/01/2016 16:10:21] Clare 🐻: So you did basically tell yorick they were destructive and needed therapy

[03/01/2016 16:10:22] Clare 🐻: ?

[03/01/2016 16:10:59] Ted: I already gave you the quote earlier.

[03/01/2016 16:11:26 | Edited 16:11:16] Clare 🐻: Yeah I just didn't read it that way initially so I'm. Confused

[03/01/2016 16:13:20] Ted: I basically told them I was trying to challenge and help with what I saw as destructive behavioural/thought patterns, which was what psychologists have done for me and what I have done for my other friends in the past. They took it the wrong way, it seems.

[03/01/2016 16:14:57] Ted: There's a difference between what I was saying and what they perceived me as saying, and that seems to be a consistent problem with yorick. I cant operate as a friend under these conditions because i have a natural urge to comfort.

[03/01/2016 16:20:47] Clare 🐻: Well yeah, but they spend a shit ton of time worrying that they're destructive so it's not exactly comforting to have a friend tell them they're overreacting and they're gonna drive people away

Like that shit hurts, you know

I get that you were just trying to help, which is awesome, but. Idk if you don't know how someone feels about their illness then suggesting ways to 'fix' it might not be a great idea

[03/01/2016 16:21:32] Ted: Well if they want to drive me away then so be it.

[03/01/2016 16:22:14] Clare 🐻: Dude.

[03/01/2016 16:22:21] Ted: I have to be honest with people. It's how I'm programmed. I cannot be friends with yorick if it means denying my own feelings.

[03/01/2016 16:22:45] Ted: Idk, I know they don't want to but that seems to be your argument.

[03/01/2016 16:23:24] Ted: That I shouldn't try to comfort a friend who's feeling like everyone's out to get them when they're not.

[03/01/2016 16:23:41] Clare 🐻: That's not my argument at all.

[03/01/2016 16:24:09] Ted: So tell me, how do i explain to yprick that we're not all out to get them without implying that they're overreacting.

[03/01/2016 16:25:29] Clare 🐻: I'm saying you shouldn't tell a friend how to feel about being triggered, much less tell them that their being upset is driving people off

[03/01/2016 16:25:51] Ted: I didn't even say that, explicitly.

[03/01/2016 16:26:18] Clare 🐻: Then what were you saying

[03/01/2016 16:26:37] Ted: So what should I do when yorick starts driving people off? Nothing?

[03/01/2016 16:27:02] Ted: It's not their being upset, it's the way they channel those emotions.

[03/01/2016 16:27:18] Clare 🐻: Yeah, nothing

[03/01/2016 16:27:34] Ted: Then I cannot be friends with yorick.

[03/01/2016 16:27:56] Ted: If that is what they need, then I cannot be the friend they need.

[03/01/2016 16:30:02] Ted: Friends don't ask friends for something they can't provide, and yorick's and my needs are incompatible.

[03/01/2016 16:31:27] Clare 🐻: You can't backseat drive peoples' lives, though

Like if yorick makes mistakes it's not your job as their friend to point it out and tell them how to fix it. That's some helicopter parent shit right there

[03/01/2016 16:32:17] Ted: I only ever try to offer comfort and advice. It's when people YELL AT ME for it that I cannot be their friend.

[03/01/2016 16:32:54] Ted: I offered comfort because they sounded distressed.

[03/01/2016 16:33:32] Ted: My friendship with gabby, for instance, does not include yelling at someone who's trying to help.

[03/01/2016 16:35:07] Clare 🐻: I respect the motive of trying to help but I just can't see how that advice could be interpreted as anything but criticism

[03/01/2016 16:35:54] Ted: You didn't see the whole conversation, and I am unable to provide a transcript

[03/01/2016 16:36:41 | Edited 16:36:31] Ted: What I tried to say was "gabby doesn't mean those things" but yorick took it as "you're overreacting and I hate you"

[03/01/2016 16:37:31] Ted: But hey, I should be used to people getting the wrong impression from my words, I'm fucking autistic.

[03/01/2016 16:38:32] Ted: No one ever cares if there's something going on outside of what they've been told of me. No allistic ever gets the wrong impression of my actions therefore the allistic is to be believed over me.

[03/01/2016 16:39:26 | Edited 16:48:05] Ted: I'm not saying this is what's happening in your case it just happens too fucking often and I'm sick of always being the misunderstood victim who only tried to help.

[03/01/2016 16:40:26] Ted: But hey, usually helping does work so I can see when I might be better off leaving someone who would be better helped by a friendship with someone else.

[03/01/2016 16:42:31 | Edited 16:43:21] Ted: Something my psychologist helped me to see is that emotional reactions to someone's behaviour is to be expected. People yorick hurts by their coping mechanisms have as much right to be hurt as they did in the first place.

[03/01/2016 16:43:21] Ted: Just like I don't fault yorick for being hurt by my "criticism"

[03/01/2016 16:44:54] Ted: Or by gabby's reblogs

[03/01/2016 16:54:08] Clare 🐻: It seems like you do tbh like that's the whole reason you're friend dumping them, no?

I don't mean to imply that people can't be hurt by yorick. I worry more that people dismiss yoricks opinions when they're hurt

Idk what's happened to you in the past because of your autism but it sounds like people misinterpreted a lot of stuff, and you know what? That sucks. That's fucking awful, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. But people do that to yorick, too. It's not fair that either of you should be discredited or ignored for how your brains work.

[03/01/2016 16:55:27] Ted: How my brain works and how yorick's brain works are not compatible for a healthy friendship.

[03/01/2016 16:56:02] Ted: We're too similar but too different.

[03/01/2016 16:57:50] Ted: I feel like I am not allowed to have an opinion around yorick that differs even slightly from their own. A big part of my friendships involves discussing and debating each others points of view.

[03/01/2016 16:58:44] Ted: I feel like I cant express myself in case it hurts them, yet feeling safe to express myself is a need.

[03/01/2016 16:59:59] Ted: Do you see why I feel we are incompatible as friends?

[03/01/2016 17:23:37] Clare 🐻: I think so but it kind of seems like it's because of their npd which you said earlier it wasn't so now idk

[03/01/2016 17:25:07] Ted: I said I didn't hate them for their npd, but their needs as a person with npd and my needs as a person with autism make us incompatible.

---

[03/01/2016 19:16:16] Clare 🐻: Yorick wanted me to ask if you could unblock them for a minute? I think they want to apologize

[03/01/2016 19:16:51] Ted: I don't know how to do that from my phone :(

[03/01/2016 19:59:50] Clare 🐻: Apparently you add them then click on their profile? I think there's a toggle or something idrk

[03/01/2016 20:03:54] Ted: What's their username?

[03/01/2016 20:04:45] Ted: Like, I'm not going to lie to them. I don't really know if this is a good idea.

[03/01/2016 20:05:09] Clare 🐻: [[removed]] I think

[03/01/2016 20:05:43] Clare 🐻: Idt you're gonna have to lie to them like really I think they just wanna say sorry

[03/01/2016 20:06:19] Ted: I'll give them that opportunity.

---

[03/01/2016 20:07:02] Ted: I unblocked you.

[03/01/2016 20:21:53] 🌴 yorick: clare said you were mad at me because i was yelling at you and i tried to apologize last night but you had already blocked me so im sorry i yelled at you

---

[03/01/2016 20:30:01] Ted: idk what to say that won't hurt them or be a lie

[03/01/2016 20:31:51] Ted: honestly this whole argument has drained me. it's been going on for more than 24 hours and I've only had 3 hours sleep because of it.

[03/01/2016 20:32:18] Ted: i'm not in a good place to judge what is and is not a harsh thing to say

[03/01/2016 20:32:48] Ted: can you give my love to yorick and let them know that i'm not ignoring them out of spite?

[03/01/2016 20:37:08] Clare 🐻: Yeah, of course

[03/01/2016 20:37:24] Ted: thank you

---

[04/01/2016 14:00:08] Ted: What's important to you in a friend?

[04/01/2016 15:28:45] 🌴 yorick: they care about me and love me and are honest and i can trust them with my secrets

[04/01/2016 15:30:50] Ted: I accidentally say or do things that end up offending people or hurt them. You've seen me do it before and it's going to keep happening. It's not something I can change about myself.

[04/01/2016 15:33:49] 🌴 yorick: everyone hurts people and being a good friend isn't about never hurting or offending your friends, it's about how you rectify the situation after you know you've hurt or offend someone

[04/01/2016 15:37:03] Ted: I need to feel free to express myself honestly, I need a friend who knows that when I am harsh, it is not because I want to hurt them. When someone takes what I say the wrong way, it's very triggering for me. It reminds me of all the people who have gotten the wrong end of the stick and punished me for it without letting me explain.

[04/01/2016 15:44:13] 🌴 yorick: i can understand not wanting to be punished when you didn't do anything wrong

because how do you think i feel when you tell me in more words that you don't want to be friends anymore immediately after a suicide attempt

how do you think i felt when i tried to apologize for it and you willfully didn't acknowledge my apology even to say "hey can we talk about this later" and instead told clare that you weren't going to speak to me

how do you think i felt when all day yesterday i was crying and couldn't eat or drink anything and not understanding why i was being punished for trying to kms and the only reason i was able to sleep last night without trying again is because clare talked me down

[04/01/2016 15:45:39] Ted: I explained to Clare why I couldn't talk to you and asked her to pass on my feelings. I could not talk to you at that time.

[04/01/2016 15:46:51] Ted: When I try to explain things when tired or emotional, that is when I am more likely to hurt someone with my words. I knew you were already hurt, and I didn't want to hurt you any more.

[04/01/2016 15:48:27] 🌴 yorick: you hurt me by ignoring me

[04/01/2016 15:49:14] Ted: I asked her to tell you that I wasn't doing it to hurt you.

[04/01/2016 15:50:40] Ted: Please stop expecting me to know what to say. I will hurt you. Please let me go so that I can stop hurting you. I'm not a good friend for you, yorick.

[04/01/2016 15:54:46] 🌴 yorick: i don't CARE if you hurt me

friends hurt each other

i care that you won't apologize for hurting me even though it wasn't your intention to

even though you didn't mean to, you still hurt me and instead of trying to rectify it you're doing the opposite and making up excuse after excuse for why you were justified in everything you did and now you're going to cut me out of your life for something that could be made okay if you just said you're sorry

[04/01/2016 15:57:30] Ted: Clare told me it's better that I say nothing than say something that might hurt you. The hurting you was unintentional, but I need to express myself. This is why i say our needs are not compatible. I am not sorry for what I said when I was trying to calm you down.

[04/01/2016 15:59:01] Ted: Irl it's a constant that I am portrayed as an aggressor simply for having an emotional reaction. Yet it is unhealthy for me to repress my emotions.

[04/01/2016 16:00:36] Ted: I'm sorry that I hurt you yorick, really I am, but it's not something I can change.

[04/01/2016 16:01:17] 🌴 yorick: clare isn't me

why are you taking clare's words about what i want over mine

i would rather fix things than toss a friendship aside

i forgive you and i still want to be friends

[04/01/2016 16:02:20] 🌴 yorick: i already said i don't care if you say something that hurts me

all that matters is that i know afterwards that you still care about me

[04/01/2016 16:04:34] Ted: I don't like hurting my friends, but it's clear that the way I try to help when somebody else hurts you only hurts you more.

[04/01/2016 16:09:05] 🌴 yorick: cutting me out of your life over some small shit that escalated is going to hurt me worlds more than anything you could ever say to me

friends abandoning me is my worst fear and it happens so often

at thisbpoint it's your call but i thought i should tell you that i don't blame you for being emotional

so

yeah

[04/01/2016 16:10:31] Ted: Do you know why the content of the vaguepost hurt Gabby so much?

[04/01/2016 16:11:05] 🌴 yorick: no

[04/01/2016 16:12:06] Ted: Because she thought that everyone who knew it was about her would turn on her because they would think she was evil and selfish.

[04/01/2016 16:14:40] 🌴 yorick: then i'm sorry for personally hurting gabby

that was an emotional reaction on my part at seeing someone i had been friends with sympathizes with views that are dangerous to me, being a jewish trans person, but i didn't mean to hurt her personally and im sorry

[04/01/2016 16:17:18] Ted: That is understandable, and I forgive you. I just want to let you know that the reason I asked who it was about was because I saw it and thought "wow, that sounds like a horrible person" and I wanted to know who it was so I could avoid them.

[04/01/2016 16:21:45] 🌴 yorick: do you and gabby know why i reacted so badly to what she said

gender essentialism is transphobic violence, and lumping jews in with christians ("monotheists") and painting us as a misogynistic oppressor religion is antisemitic violence and the latter is a tactic frequently used by white supremacists

i am still sorry for hurting her but i think it's important that you know i didn't pull this conflict out of my ass and that this stuff really hurt me too

[04/01/2016 16:22:17] Ted: I know, and I'm sorry.

[04/01/2016 16:22:40] Ted: Should I pass on your apology to gabby?

[04/01/2016 16:23:33] 🌴 yorick: yea

[04/01/2016 16:23:43] 🌴 yorick: can me and you be friends again

[04/01/2016 16:23:53] Ted: Yes.

[04/01/2016 16:24:50] 🌴 yorick: do you really really mean it

[04/01/2016 16:26:13] Ted: I do. Thank you for explaining things to me.

[04/01/2016 16:27:27] 🌴 yorick: do you wanna virtually hug it out

[04/01/2016 16:27:52] Ted: okay *hugs*

[04/01/2016 16:32:20] 🌴 yorick: the new year has been full of fighting so far so i'm reverting back to using the hebrew calendar

the new year 5777 doesn't start until october so i have plenty of time to start being nice

[04/01/2016 16:34:21] Ted: Well you've already made a start by patching things up with me.

[04/01/2016 16:36:59] 🌴 yorick: so are we really foreally friends i need assurance

[04/01/2016 16:37:45] Ted: Yes. :)

[04/01/2016 16:38:51] 🌴 yorick: prove it by telling me i have cute neopets

[04/01/2016 16:40:01] Ted: Send me a link so I can be genuine.

[04/01/2016 16:44:20] 🌴 yorick: http://www.neopets.com/userlookup.phtml?user=supsujums look at my children

[04/01/2016 16:44:55] 🌴 yorick: fun sloth fact i traded a uc sloth halloween moehog for katfink

[04/01/2016 16:45:43] Ted: Wow, those are really cute!

[04/01/2016 16:53:36] 🌴 yorick: they like you too

[04/01/2016 16:53:54] Ted: Awwww!

---

[04/01/2016 15:48:17 | Removed 16:31:17] Ted: This message has been removed.

[04/01/2016 16:31:29] Ted: Nevermind, it's okay, we sorted it out.

[04/01/2016 21:37:07] Clare 🐻: Sorted what out?

[04/01/2016 21:37:36] Ted: The conflict.

[04/01/2016 21:49:28] Clare 🐻: Which conflict

[04/01/2016 21:50:33] Ted: The conflict me and yorick were having.

[04/01/2016 21:51:01] Ted: The one you were helping me make sense of the other night.

[04/01/2016 21:51:21] Clare 🐻: Ahhhh okay

[04/01/2016 21:51:50] Clare 🐻: So what did yall work out?

[04/01/2016 21:52:07] Ted: We're friends again.

[04/01/2016 21:52:57] Clare 🐻: Sweet!! Is everything okay?

[04/01/2016 21:54:17] Ted: So far, yeah. I mean gabby's still angry and will be for a very long time, but yorick understands why now.

[04/01/2016 21:56:08] Clare 🐻: Hmm alright

You and Yorick are cool though ?

[04/01/2016 21:57:49] Ted: Pretty much. They apologised and I apologised. I'm still shaken but I have perspective now.

[04/01/2016 22:03:41] Clare 🐻: Perspective?

[04/01/2016 22:05:25] Ted: Like, of what was going on and stuff. How yorick feels about me. Etc.

[04/01/2016 22:08:46] Clare 🐻: Ahh okay

---

[07/03/2016 02:11:34] Gabby "痛い" C.: (( i honestly don't feel welcome or safe in the neopets community ))

[07/03/2016 02:11:46] Gabby "痛い" C.: (( my own special interest fuckin hates me ))

[07/03/2016 04:26:00] Gabby "痛い" C.: (( if i was enough i wouldn't be like this!!!! i wouldn't have been sexually assaulted several times by my ex!!!! i wouldn't have been bullied and harassed throughout my entire school career!!!! ))

[08/03/2016 04:24:03] Gabby "痛い" C.: (( at this point i'm almost ready to outright write a suicide note on tumblr and start planning my funeral ))

[08/03/2016 04:25:40] Gabby "痛い" C.: (( but then there's the issue of quickly, efficiently, and painlessly dying. that's a doozy i haven't solved yet ))

[08/03/2016 04:29:38] Gabby "痛い" C.: (( the only reason i'm even thinking about staying alive is sheer obligation (example: you, my cats at home, etc) ))

---

[07/03/2016 00:58:41] Ted: weird request: can you reassure me that I didn't just alienate myself from the whole chat?

[07/03/2016 00:59:28] bean 📻: i don't think you alienated urself, nobody is really online rn and i didn't even see what happened ;;

[07/03/2016 01:00:21] Ted: just everyone suddenly stopped talking after I shared my link, and it wasn't on topic and just idk, I guess i'm still anxious from what happened the last time I was in a neotag group chat

[07/03/2016 01:01:00] bean 📻: don't sweat it, the chat gets really quiet up until the next neogames

the radio silence in there is totally normal and not because of ur link

[07/03/2016 01:01:17] Ted: thank you

---

[13/03/2016 04:16:35] bean 📻: Heyo, I just wanted to message you to let you know that a few people in the chat felt a little uncomfortable with the use of 'cr*zy

[13/03/2016 04:16:41] Ted: oh

[13/03/2016 04:16:46] Ted: but

[13/03/2016 04:17:04] Ted: what do I call him then?

[13/03/2016 04:17:43] bean 📻: well in the neogames I call him Dr Sloth Wannabe, but shorten it to DSW whenever something happens related to him

you can call him w/e you want, it's just that a few people felt a little uncomfortable w/ the slur

[13/03/2016 04:19:09] Ted: i

[13/03/2016 04:19:54] Ted: I would rather explain to them personally where the name comes from to be perfectly honest

[13/03/2016 04:21:59] bean 📻: I don't want to name any names because I don't want to tarnish your experience in chat, but a few of the people who spoke up told me that they've had that slur leveled against them and it makes them really uncomfortable to see someone else call their own OC by that

[13/03/2016 04:22:08] Ted: do these pesopl even know that I have a history wof sphychosis

[13/03/2016 04:22:50] Ted: that si t nknow gine well what it's like to bee  ac vifctim eof stignma

[13/03/2016 04:23:09] Ted: thisf inns't the first time

[13/03/2016 04:24:04] Ted: he is not some stereotype

[13/03/2016 04:24:14] Ted: his name is not a joke

[13/03/2016 04:24:40] Ted: it is so so important

[13/03/2016 04:25:18] Ted: and no bone wants to let sme expalina

[13/03/2016 04:26:19] Ted: therny nhthink i'm sar horrinle unfeeling s=person with too much privilege they think i'm enuteroytpical don't they the y think I don't know twhaat it's like to have horrible foivces telling me the rworld will be tbetter off when i'm edad

[13/03/2016 04:33:35] Ted: I had a very very bad time

[13/03/2016 04:35:22 | Edited 04:37:14] Ted: please either let me explain to them personally or idek just tell them to come to me when they have a problem with my character

[13/03/2016 04:38:43] Ted: i don't mind people coming eto me when they have a problem twith something im' doing

---

[13/03/2016 04:41:55] Ted: please say somethign

[13/03/2016 04:43:54] Ted: i really really do not like people talk ing behind hmy hback i harte it i whate ict

[13/03/2016 04:45:56] bean 📻: i'm sorry, I was imputing people into the games and I forgot to check skype

[13/03/2016 04:46:33] Ted: why sdo people stalk about nme beghin gd my back

[13/03/2016 04:46:53] Ted: instead of letting m e explain

[13/03/2016 04:46:58] Ted: they jumpe to conclusions

[13/03/2016 04:47:07] Ted: it walwasy happens

[13/03/2016 04:47:09] bean 📻: They came to me specifically because I'm the mod of the chat, and I'm the only one in there who has everyone added

[13/03/2016 04:47:47] bean 📻: I'm sorry that this has upset you, but they didn't have you added and didn't feel right just adding you to message you to stop using a word

[13/03/2016 04:48:43] Ted: can you tell htem that i have a history of psuchosis and have had crazy levelled at me also and that's hwy he is called crazy because I KNOW twhat stigma does

[13/03/2016 04:48:51] Ted: it's about stigma

[13/03/2016 04:48:58] Ted: the character is about wstigma

[13/03/2016 04:49:25] bean 📻: The people who've contacted me also deal with psychosis and it triggers them to see the word

[13/03/2016 04:50:35] Ted: i don't wknos what to do i can't scentsor myself whern ti comes to this he's too important to em

[13/03/2016 04:51:21] Ted: shoufl oi leace

[13/03/2016 04:51:35] bean 📻: No, you don't have to leave

[13/03/2016 04:52:06] Ted: no non ehas theat words likested in thiee spreadshrett

[13/03/2016 04:52:31] Ted: i c ouln'ts

[13/03/2016 04:52:47] Ted: you said it was a fww peorpl

[13/03/2016 04:53:14] Ted: now tyou're saying it's one peorpsn

[13/03/2016 04:54:37] Ted: moeaybe i read wont i'm sorry

[13/03/2016 04:54:39] bean 📻: It's not one person, one person out of the group told me that the word triggers them

[13/03/2016 04:55:16] Ted: whty is gevenyone wtalk ing boaut me

[13/03/2016 04:55:28] Ted: i have timnble

[13/03/2016 04:55:31] Ted: tubmbel

[13/03/2016 04:55:33] Ted: tumblr

[13/03/2016 04:56:33] Ted: ij have ensxplained beforea

==================================================

Record Number     : 151868

Action Type       : Chat Message

Action Time       : 13/03/2016 03:56:47

End Time          :

User Name         : [[removed]]

Display Name      : Ted

Duration          :

Chat Message      : i didn&apos;t want to intentionally trigger anyone and i am sorry

ChatID            : 19:45d8153bf4b24e7fb467915c835773bb@thread.skype

Filename          :

==================================================

==================================================

Record Number     : 151869

Action Type       : Chat Message

Action Time       : 13/03/2016 03:57:08

End Time          :

User Name         : [[removed]]

Display Name      : bean 📻

Duration          :

Chat Message      : don&apos;t sweat it ted, let&apos;s enjoy the games for tonight

ChatID            : 19:45d8153bf4b24e7fb467915c835773bb@thread.skype

Filename          :

==================================================

[13/03/2016 04:58:13] Ted: i can't enjoy myself right now i'm too skaekthen but tyou enhjoy

[13/03/2016 04:58:33] Ted: somebody sent me an asccusatyo anon while you were vgone

[13/03/2016 05:00:17] bean 📻: I'm sorry that people are sending you anons

[13/03/2016 05:00:44] Ted: it wasn about something differnte but it shook me

---

[13/03/2016 05:27:27] Ted: i'm sorry i get upset more easily when i'm tired i shouldn't stay up so late i'm sorry

[13/03/2016 05:27:59] bean 📻: it's okay, don't sweat it

---

[18/03/2016 09:43:53] Ted: Look, idk why you think it's okay to give yaakov a free pass to inflict whatever hurt they might while venting, then tell someone with autism that they're manipulative and controlling for doing the exact same thing (only in that instance I was trying to reach out, to help. Yaakov was doing no such thing.)

[18/03/2016 10:00:29] Ted: Autism limits the ways you can express yourself. It affects the way you perceive the world. It makes it hard to automatically understand how your words are going to affect other people. Does any of this sound familiar?

[18/03/2016 10:03:44] Ted: It was my mistake getting involved in the first place. I should have just left it, but yaakov sounded so upset, and the person in the vaguepost sounded like an awful human being. I had no idea it was gabby until they told me. And I naïvely assumed that if yaakov was vagueposting about someone, they must have them blocked and therefore won't see their posts. I was dead wrong.

[18/03/2016 10:06:02] Ted: I've since managed to see yaakov's vagueposting for what it was intended to be, but that doesn't stop it from hurting people. Gabby would have found out about it at some point, and her reaction would have been the same. I am glad I was online, bc I fear if i wasn't she would have seriously attempted to take her own life.

[18/03/2016 10:07:03] Ted: And yeah, I was angry, but instead of gossiping about yaakov behind their back, I went to them with the issue.

[18/03/2016 10:08:40] Ted: This is what I would want under the circumstances. It's what I thought anyone with a neurodivergency would want. My timing was bad and I seriously regret some of the decisions I made that night.

[18/03/2016 10:11:12] Ted: People like me and gabby, we can't handle being talked about behind our backs because we have a chronic history of "getting it wrong". We often don't know if we've hurt someone until they tell us to our face, and yaakov having confided in me about being unable to predict or imagine other people's emotions, I assumed they would be the same.

[18/03/2016 10:12:12] Ted: The rule is do not vaguepost about someone in front of their friends, and especially do not vaguepost about someone where they might see it.

[18/03/2016 10:13:39] Ted: However I didn't get to explain this to yaakov bc they were too busy accusing me of wanting them dead, of conspiring with gabby to laugh about them and make them want to die. Of being a bloody antisemite.

[18/03/2016 10:14:53] Ted: (sure I'm a bit out of touch, but I did hear their point, and I looked it up to find somebody explaining it in a way I understood)

[18/03/2016 10:17:44] Ted: I know from my own conversations with yaakov that our issues are very similar. It just seems to be the way we are programmed to deal with them that seems different, and that is why my reaction after the argument was "clearly our needs are incompatible"

[18/03/2016 10:18:15] Ted: That view was only reinforced by them taking that the wrong way

[18/03/2016 10:21:21] Ted: And now you're acting like it's gabby's fault for being upset that yaakov was seemingly spreading shit about her?

[18/03/2016 10:22:59] Ted: I was the one that made yaakov suicidal that night, yaakov was the one that made gabby suicidal that night, and you were the one that made me feel disrespected as a person (and yeah, if I'd been in a worse place and hadn't had cbt on my side, I would have considered suicide)

[18/03/2016 10:25:26] Ted: The question remains, how did you feel? Because from what I've seen you feel it's your burden to make sure everyone feels okay. And when someone is dumping a great negative feeling on you, that can suck you in, tire you, make you unable to see the emotions of the other person involved.

---

[3/17/2016 11:30:14 PM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like am i stressing you out by talking to you

[3/17/2016 11:41:09 PM] Clare 🐻: I mean. A little

It's less about stress & more about being.  uncomfortable

[3/17/2016 11:41:44 PM] Gabby "痛い" C.: how so

[3/17/2016 11:47:16 PM] Clare 🐻: Well there's the radfem stuff but mostly i just feel weird after all that stuff Ted said to yorick?

[3/17/2016 11:48:00 PM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like i can't necessarily control what ted has to say

[3/17/2016 11:58:09 PM] Clare 🐻: Well the stuff you said to yorick, too

[3/17/2016 11:58:23 PM] Gabby "痛い" C.: which stuff

[12:07:59 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: if this is about the monotheist comment again, i know i already explained this to you

but like i literally didn't know at the time for sure they were jewish and was trying to continge for that

[12:10:38 AM] Clare 🐻: Did you think he was like. Lying about being Jewish

[12:11:15 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like they had me softblocked for. a while

i was literally out of the loop

[12:15:10 AM] Clare 🐻: Ahh

Why the monotheism comment then

[12:15:48 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i was tipped off to that one post about "how all neopagans are neonazis"

[12:16:21 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: bc like ted and yorick were in something before and i wanted to see what the fuss was about

[12:16:47 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: >not realizing that yorick had _soft_blocked me at the time

[12:21:36 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: >that post i vagued about wasn't even the one ted and yorick were arguing about in the first place

[12:26:05 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: let's just get this argument done

[12:30:22 AM] Clare 🐻: I still don't understand why the monotheism comment

[12:31:15 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like it was literally a blanket statement because i didn't know if they were jewish or like, one of those pro-israel christians or what

like i said, i was literally out of the loop

[12:31:37 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i didn't know they had mentioned they were jewish like anywhere?????

[12:34:02 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i didn't even find out until you and ted told me

[12:34:09 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: after i deleted

[12:37:10 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i'm not sure what kind of answer you're expecting

[12:42:22 AM] Clare 🐻: I think more I'm confused about why make a monotheism comment in general

[12:43:37 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: the original comment they were vaguing about that i was vaguing back about was religion related so????

it made sense to me at the time

[12:47:58 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: of course i'm so out of the damn loop it doesn't matter

[12:53:10 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: that's all i've got to say that isn't going to go in a loop

[12:54:51 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: because that's what i've got to say about the situation

[12:58:37 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: literally the only reason i know jack shit about anyone from the tag anymore is bc ted mentions that sort of thing from the time to time

[1:03:53 AM | Edited 1:03:49 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: then again, ted's literally the only person i've been in regular contact with from the tag in quite some time

[1:17:53 AM] Clare 🐻: Idrk what defines the Loop but. In the case of Yorick being Jewish that's not really privileged information

[1:18:40 AM] Clare 🐻: & it feels like an unfair way to retaliate you know

[1:19:26 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like there was no signs that

i picked up on

[1:19:46 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like nothing was obvious???

[1:20:21 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i was trying to be inclusive but sufficiently vague at the same time

[1:21:05 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: trying to toe the line between a reblog with why they're mistaken and respecting the don't reblog tag

[1:25:50 AM] Clare 🐻: If nothing was obvious then why blog abt his religion like. I understand turning it around but either you did or didn't know he was Jewish & blogging about monotheists seems pretty. Direct

[1:28:23 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like it was literally just a guess. like. the post they made was clearly attack on something i'm interested in, stating it like it was the whole truth. i was clapping back presuming they were one of the big three (christian was originally what i was going for)

[1:28:55 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: the original post was about religion

[1:43:30 AM] Clare 🐻: See but that's the trouble. You can't lump Christianity in with Judaism and Islam. Like. Two of those are persecuted and murdered and discriminated against by the third.

Like if all the neopagans Yorick has dealt with had been neonazis maybe talking shit about Judaism isn't a great way to break the stereotype

[1:44:29 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like no one takes me fuckin seriously anyways and tbh i didn't even expect them to see that vague

[1:47:25 AM] Clare 🐻: But he did see it, and he took it seriously. Feeling like people don't take you seriously isn't license to say whatever

[1:48:07 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: well, you know, vagueblogging in general isn't exactly good practice either

[1:49:30 AM] Clare 🐻: I guess?? I think it has its uses. Venting, etc

[1:49:45 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: and like i was angry triggered at the time

[1:52:08 AM] Clare 🐻: Still not a great reason to shit talk judaism though ?

[1:53:11 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: well i deleted and i'm deleting again so that way they'll never have to worry about someone who is clearly such a massive piece of shit

[2:03:14 AM] Clare 🐻: I don't think he knows you came back in the first place tbh so that's not gonna. do much

I'm not really sure where you're getting massive piece of shit from but if that's how you feel about this then like. Deleting isn't the answer? That's not gonna make anything right u know, you've gotta try to understand and stop talking shit about minorities

[2:03:56 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like i'm the massive piece of shit

[2:04:08 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i know i'm the horrible person

[2:04:20 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i know i'm a waste of space

[2:04:48 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i know i should just kill myself already, so that way someone less fortunate than i can live

[2:05:48 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: and this feeling has been here long before this incident happened

[2:08:01 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i know my anger is useless and worth nothing

[2:09:53 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i've fucking known i've been the whole reason all this shit went down

[2:10:03 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: even tho it wasn't even what i intended

[2:11:44 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: and i know i told ted not to tell yorick off for me leaving

[2:11:51 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: but ey did anyways

[2:18:07 AM] Clare 🐻: Well like you said you can't necessarily control what Ted says

Like just. Baby steps. Not using monotheism as an umbrella term when generalizing. Acknowledging transwomen. That kind of thing

[2:19:04 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i never stopped acknoweldging transwomen tho??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????///

[2:19:52 AM] Clare 🐻: Oh typo my bad

I meant acknowledging them as women

[2:20:40 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i don't have the energy to argue rn

[2:21:43 AM] Clare 🐻: Okay

[2:22:14 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: this... was excrutiating

[2:26:01 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i've gained little i didn't already know, except why you weren't replying to anything i had to send you recently

[2:26:10 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: thanks

[2:29:30 AM] Clare 🐻: Uh

You're welcome?

I kind of feel like you're saying you just disregarded all the stuff I tried to tell you & im not really sure what to do with that

[2:29:49 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: no i didn't disregard everything you said

[2:29:57 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i just already knew it

[2:30:13 AM] Clare 🐻: I'm confused

[2:30:31 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like idk how to put it in words rn

[2:30:39 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: but like idk

[2:36:19 AM] Clare 🐻: Okay well sorry this was excruciating

[2:36:41 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like you don't have to be apologizing for that

[2:38:41 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: honestly i feel like you're attributing an overly rational mindset to me, completely glossing over the fact that i was feeling

[2:40:47 AM] Clare 🐻: Just now?

[2:41:08 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like in the most recent argument

[2:41:30 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like i was so fucking upset at the time

[2:42:03 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: like at the time of the original vague

[2:42:14 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: and you act like i was totally cool and calm and collected

[2:51:50 AM] Clare 🐻: I don't really think that so I'm sorry if I gave that impression

[2:51:59 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: ok

[2:52:24 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: (sorry if i seem bitchy i'm really tired and not quite sober rn)

[2:53:30 AM] Clare 🐻: Nah you don't seem bitchy

Maybe we should just pick this up another time

[2:54:04 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i want this to be resolved now so that way i'll know if we'll ever talk to each other ever again or if i should just never return to the tag ever again

[3:01:37 AM] Clare 🐻: I mean I think we will as long as there's not any more trouble

[3:02:01 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i'm skeptical tbh but okay

[3:14:19 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: there. i deleted, i'm never coming back to the tag ever again.

[3:26:40 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: everyone else deserves a safe space

but i deserve to be fucking lynched

[3:26:45 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: good night

[3:29:31 AM] Clare 🐻: Nobody's gonna lynch you & if you want to make a safe space you don't have to leave, you just have to respect people

[3:34:30 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: i respect people and guess what? they don't respect me back

[3:34:59 AM] Gabby "痛い" C.: it's been that way all my damn life

[3:57:48 AM] Clare 🐻: That sucks, ngl

It's a shitty thing to be disrespected your whole life & it's one thing to snap back at them but it's another to go after other marginalized ppl

This ain't the food chain & you gotta vent steam upwards or you'll get mold

---

[19/03/2016 00:57:59] Clare 🐻: okay I'm gonna break this down by points bc that's a lot of information to process

1. I don't give Yaakov free passes to inflict hurt. like I'm sorry if you were hurt by their venting but I'm not going to go all tonepolice and "not all Christians" on something I, a catholic, am not in a position to understand

2. autism is not stereotypically associated with being manipulative and controlling, so i'm not sure why you bring it up in this context unless it's as an excuse not to be called out for anything?

3. I understand that you were trying to reach out and help but there is no context in which it is appropriate to tell someone the things you told Yaakov that night. like regardless of your intentions, saying to someone that they're destructive and driving people away isn't helping. it's not an intervention; it's you messaging someone who's already upset and telling them bluntly that you think they're a bad person. you can't compare that to yorick vagueblogging about antisemitism.

4. i'm not sure if you're saying that I called you manipulative/controlling or that Yaakov did so idk what to say to that

5. I understand that you have autism, and to some degree, i understand how it affects your expression and perception

6. if you thought it was awful when it was vagueblogging, what changed when the mask was lifted, so to speak? what about the context affected your reaction?

7. You weren't wrong. Yorick did have her blocked, and if she hadn't gone to his blog directly, she wouldn't have seen his posts, even as reblogs. unless you mean you were wrong about how blocking works, in which case nvm

8. gabby would not have found out, nor would she have known that it was directed at her. i'm glad you were online to keep her safe, and help her to not hurt herself, but the only reason she became aware of yorick's reaction to her post is because you brought it to her attention. I don't mean to blame you or cast aspersions but the only reason she was reading yorick's blog is because you decided to vent to her. yaakov didn't message her directly for a reason--because he also knew how she would react. he didn't want to to provoke a reaction. he just wanted to vent his feelings about antisemitic posts like the ones gabby was reblogging

9. you say that like going to yaakov with the issue was the right decision. and like you weren't "gossiping" with gabby at the same time

10. if you want people to approach you under those same circumstances, you need to become more approachable, and respond to criticism without immediate denials

11. you can't have it both ways. either you want people to tell you "to your face" when you've hurt them, or yorick was being unruly and horrible for telling you your advice about 'destructive behavior' was mean and unsolicited

12.  I can understand that it was an honest mistake, thinking that that's what yaakov would want under the circumstances, but he's not neurotypical either. empathy might be tricky but like. just take a minute to imagine you have a chronic history of worrying you were doing X, and then someone you were opening up to told you "you do X all the time and you need to get that looked at". like what if yorick had said to you about "getting it wrong" what you said to them about "destructive behavior"? how would that have made you feel?

13. That's not a rule anyone agreed to. Maybe not vagueblogging about people where they might see it, but again, the only way Gabby was going to see that was if she was on yorick's blog directly

14. once again, yorick is neurodivergent too--and you certainly weren't giving him reason to believe you wanted him alive. i'm not going to speak on his behalf regarding his brain stuff but, friend dumping someone immediately after they try to kill themselves isn't exactly a "hey, glad you're not dead"

15. not being jewish myself, I can't really speak to the anti-Semitism, but in the same way that "not all men" isn't usually a feminist slogan, "not all Christians" doesn't bode well u know

16. Similarly, not sharing your or Yaakov's disorders I don't really want to speculate about how they affect y'all but I just don't understand how "our needs are incompatible" is indicative of any kind of attempt at respect or inquiry

17. Vagueblogging isn't "spreading shit". It's venting. You spread it, man. Not yorick.

18. It is in no way Gabby's fault that she's upset, and I don't fault her for having feelings or a negative reaction to all the shit that went down. If I fault her for anything, it's the way she chose to retaliate, and we've talked about that, and I think I've made my stance clear.

18. So you're guilty, yaakov is guilty, i'm guilty--what about gabby? she's not blameless in this situation, ted. none of us are. it's one thing to accuse me of giving yakko a free pass, but you can't turn around and do that for gabby at the same time. yorick didn't start this. yorick vagueblogged about a very antisemitic post of Gabby's. gabby started all of this.

19. I'm sorry if I made you feel disrespected as a person--that was never my intention, and if you can be more specific I'll apologize more specifically and try my damnedest not to do it again. Looking at the logs, I honestly don't know where I went wrong so I would appreciate whatever insight you could provide

20. How did I feel? Do you really want to know? I'm exhausted. Making sure people feel okay isn't a burden, it's my responsibility as a member of this community, and no matter how tiring it is I will always try to keep this a safe space. Yes, I may be a little overly empathetic, but the emotions of one person don't cloud my judgment, nor my perception of other people's feelings. I understand how you and Gabby felt, even if I don't understand why, and I understand how yorick felt. That was one of the shittiest nights of my damn life. I'm depressed and neurodivergent and chronically ill. I have so little energy, and so few spoons, and i'm so easily stressed that I basically huck it all out the window first thing in the morning. waking up to find an elaborately choreographed parade of bullshit is not my idea of a good time.

I was so scared, and so worried, and so angry

i'm so tired of this

[19/03/2016 13:47:38] Ted: 1. I wasn't hurt by their venting. What I was hurt by were their accusations, which left me confused and scared.

2. You accused me of trying to backseat drive people's lives. That is where I am taking manipulative and controlling from.

3. I didn't mean to imply that Yaakov was a bad person. Sometimes good people hurt other people by accident, and it was the wrong time for me to try and confront them about the way they were handling things. I've already apologised for this, and I was under the impression that me and Yaakov were friends again.

4. See point 2.

5. The reason I said “sound familiar?” was because it overlaps with Yaakov's description of NPD, and correlates with the times you have said “but you can't think of them negatively for that, they have NPD” when you are faulting both me and Gabby for having the same difficulties.

6. When speaking to someone face to face, you have the ability to reason and negotiate. You have opened a dialogue privately with that person and are not airing the dirty laundry, so to speak. When I saw how upset Yaakov was, and when they brought up points about my own behaviour, my tone changed. This is an example of why talking to people is better than vaguing, in my opinion.

7. I was under the impression that Yaakov had only soft-blocked her, but I'm probably getting my dates muddled up about the implementation of the new block system, so I'm sorry about that.

8. She would have found out eventually that Yaakov was vagueposting about her. It wasn't the first vaguepost, and the only reason I vented to her (she had no idea it was anything to do with her, tbf) was because she's the only person who makes an effort to regularly talk to me. (Okay, there's one more person now but we're still not that close that I'd be comfortable venting about someone.)

9. I wasn't gossiping. When I have an argument with a friend and need to vent to another friend, I generally keep the more harmful content out of it. I tried in this case to give the impression that it had nothing at all to do with anything to do with Gabby, but of course that backfired. I was not gossiping with Gabby about the content of my argument with Yaakov.

10. There's a difference between a denial and an explanation. If people come to me with accusations that I feel are false or misleading, of course my response is going to be more of a “sorry I hurt you, but I think you're misreading the situation” tack. I've had anons come to me in the past saying they're uncomfortable about something I've said, and I've immediately apologised and deleted or modified the post as necessary. There was another time when a mutual of mine said something very mean to me on anon, and after they explained to me (again on anon) what had caused it to happen, I forgave them. (I had to spend a good deal of time comforting them after that, but overall, confronting the anon directly had a much better effect on everyone's emotions after the fact than just getting upset and/or vaguing about it would have done.)

11. I never said that Yaakov was being unruly and horrible for telling me my advice wasn't wanted. Neither of us were in a place to accept perceived criticism or accusations that night, and we since apologised to each other - Yaakov for yelling at me and me for hurting Yaakov.

12. I didn't say they were neurotypical. In fact, my whole reasoning for approaching Yaakov in the way I did was that they are not neurotypical. When I am in a situation of worrying that I'm doing X, it helps me to be told “actually, you are doing X and here are possible ways you can minimise that effect. Thoughts?” I don't want to be in the dark, worrying about how my actions affect others, especially when the CBT I was given was all about not overworrying and letting people come to you if they have a problem.

13. If Yaakov had Gabby blocked, why were they seeing her posts and reblogs? Were they on Gabby's blog? If so, why is it inconceivable that Gabby would also be looking at Yaakov's blog. Yaakov had interacted with Gabby before in a way that made her feel bullied, and if Yaakov's reasoning for looking at Gabby's blog was that she was intimidating, I feel like this point is only going to go round in circles.

14. So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. At the time, I thought I was being responsible by recognising that we would only end up hurting each other if I tried to be a good friend (which was a flawed response, as we have already discussed, and my timing was super bad). My reasoning was that by trying to comfort Yaakov earlier in the day, I had upset them more. By trying to explain how their actions were affecting others, I drove them to try and commit suicide. When I know that I'm hurting someone and I don't know how to stop, I remove myself from the situation so that I won't keep hurting them and can maybe gain some perspective on what went wrong.

15. I never used “not all Christians”, and that was never my argument. I don't understand what led you to that conclusion.

16. You seemed to be asking that I don't get involved when a friend hurts a friend. Yaakov also seemed to be telling me that I shouldn't have let them know that they'd hurt Gabby. This was where “our needs are incompatible” came from.

17. Very antisemitic? Do you even know what the post said? It was something along the lines of “the holy men declared our monthly bleeding unclean”, which could have been a reference to any number of current events. I didn't flag it as antisemitic until Yaakov pointed it out, and Gabby certainly had no idea of any antisemitic intent of the post. It was a reblog, not her own.

18. (1) This is the same thing that bothered me about Yaakov. If by “chose to retaliate” you mean the vaguepost she made in response, that was my fault. If you mean by deleting her blog, that's not going to be solved by making her think she won't be listened to.

18. (2) My beef with you is you aren't even trying to ascertain what we said or think before you jump to your own conclusions. My reason for contacting you is because, from what Gabby said, it seemed you were blaming your hesitancy to speak with her (which imo is totally valid bc you're so close with Yaakov) on what I had said to Yaakov. (In other words implying that you don't want to speak with her because she's friends with me.) From what I understand, you think that Gabby doesn't believe that trans women are women, when she does. There was a time when she wanted to believe the TERF lie, but that was before I found out that her then-girlfriend was a manipulative rapist and encouraged her to end it. I've been giving her support ever since, countering any views that border on transphobia in a way she can understand, without yelling at her or accusing her of wanting people to die.

19. You didn't ask me to clarify what my views were before believing what somebody else had said about me. That's what made me feel de-personified. Like you were talking at me or telling me off instead of trying to resolve my feelings (which I think is what you were trying to do, and is what I perceived that at the time).

20. I don't know what you mean by “an elaborately choreographed parade of bullshit”, so if you could elaborate on that I would be thankful. I'm sorry if this was a bad time. I can only ever time things based on my own spoons, but I understand if you want to wait to respond. I know I do a lot of the time. It lets me calm down and process everything, try out different contexts for interpretation, and collect my thoughts, as well as wait for a time when I am able to express myself coherently.

[19/03/2016 13:47:52] Ted: 20. (cont.) I know how it feels to care about everyone and for it to seem like no one else does. However, asking what is wrong and trying to soothe their fears is more effective than telling someone “I can't see your reasoning as valid”. I made mistakes with Yaakov, and I apologised for them. If Yaakov is still upset about what I said, please let them come to me at a time of their choosing, when their spoons allow. As long as they realise that I don't hate them, that I care about their feelings, then I am happy with our friendship as it is.

---

[20/03/2016 11:34:49] Ted: Okay, scratch all of that, I didn't realise they were so scared of me. I'm gonna send one final apology and then leave you guys alone for good. I'm sorry for all the hurt that I've caused.

---

---

--

[21/03/2016 21:50:24] [[removed]]: hey can we please talk for a sec because i'm under the impression that you've been stalking my friend's blog. if not, i apologize for the unnecessary confrontation, but if you are indeed doing this, please stop.

[21/03/2016 21:51:57] Ted: I don't mean to stalk I'm just so worried about them bc I upset them really bad and I'm stupid and I don't know that I'm hurting anyone until it's too late

[21/03/2016 21:52:29] [[removed]]: they don't want you viewing their blog. they are not comfortable with you doing that.

[21/03/2016 21:53:10] [[removed]]: you cannot reconcile everything that goes wrong. please just leave them be.

[21/03/2016 21:53:56] Ted: Did they message me back? I can't access tumblr right now

[21/03/2016 21:54:59] [[removed]]: they have vented to me that they are extremely uncomfortable with whoever it is from scotland who's viewing their blog.

[21/03/2016 21:55:27] [[removed]]: the best thing you can do is step back and leave them alone.

[21/03/2016 21:55:35] Ted: I will

[21/03/2016 21:55:52] [[removed]]: as in, don't view their blog. don't do it repeatedly, don't do it occasionally. leave them alone.

[21/03/2016 21:55:58] Ted: Yeah

[21/03/2016 21:56:42] Ted: I understand what it's like to feel harassed. I'm very sorry and I will definitely leave them alone now

[21/03/2016 21:56:55] [[removed]]: please do so. thank you.

[21/03/2016 21:57:20] Ted: Thank you for telling me

---

[21/03/2016 21:58:19] Clare 🐻: Look you need to leave him alone. Like stay off his blog entirely.  What are you looking for

[21/03/2016 21:59:17] Ted: I was trying to check on them. [[removed]] already told me. I'm sorry for everything

[21/03/2016 22:00:46] Ted: If there was one last view there it's because I was making sure my phone wouldn't automatically stick me back on that page again

[21/03/2016 22:04:07] Clare 🐻: What were you checking on

[21/03/2016 22:05:08] Ted: To see if my apology had upset them I suppose

[21/03/2016 22:05:35] Ted: I'm on my phone rn so I can't access my inbox

[21/03/2016 22:09:30] Clare 🐻: Ah well. He's not upset but idt he's going to respond, he doesn't know what you're expecting him to say

[21/03/2016 22:10:15] Ted: Whether or not they want me to delete the art they gave me

[21/03/2016 22:11:07] Ted: And also "please just leave me alone" if that's what they wish

[21/03/2016 22:14:23] Ted: I really honestly cannot tell how someone is feeling unless I have some form of feedback, which is why I was checking their blog. I'm sorry.

[21/03/2016 22:17:16] Clare 🐻: You don't have to delete the art, he already drew it so it doesn't really matter

& yes he wants you to leave him alone, he's scared and uncomfortable

[21/03/2016 22:17:34] Ted: Ok

[21/03/2016 22:17:56] Ted: Thank you for telling me to my face

[21/03/2016 22:18:03] Ted: Goodbye

---

---

05/02/2016

oocneoblog: Hi, this probably seems like weird timing. I told myself to wait until I wasn't so upset and paranoid and thinking everything was a conspiracy. But I guess my brain won't let me do that any more than it's done, so... I guess... can you tell me why I was removed from the neogames skype group?

oocneoblog: I just kind of... need to know in words... I'm sorry.

mojavescript: Hi there, you were removed from the group because several people were made to feel unsafe, including Yaakov/Yorick. Although it may not affect you, others were feeling extremely uncomfortable about the slurs you were using. It's been months now, so I'm not entirely sure why you're bringing this up.

oocneoblog: Did Yaakov tell you what happened?

oocneoblog: (also i did stop using the word "crazy" after you told me about it. I wasn't meaning to have a go at you or anything here. I'm bringing it up because of sticky/intrusive thoughts that won't leave me alone.)

oocneoblog: (like, i didn't even know yaakov was upset. i had to find out from a vaguepost that one of my mutuals reblogged. i felt shitty about the whole thing and i still feel like i was misrepresented. but i did cause hurt but i didn't know about it and i just. i never know where i am with people. i wish they'd just talk to me.)

mojavescript: Yaakov did tell me what happened, and they felt uncomfortable with you checking up on their blog after the whole incident went down. Yakko also asked you to stop talking about them to other people. I'm sorry that you're having intrusive thoughts, but things have settled down on our end of the matter.

oocneoblog: I just don't know what to do anymore. I need to talk to someone about it but I can't talk to anyone.

My psychologist is on maternity leave as well.

And has been since before the incident.

Did Yaakov tell you what went down before? Did Clare tell you why I sent that big long spiel?

mojavescript: I'm not on a psychologist, and I don't know if I can help you. Which spiel??

oocneoblog: The one that made Yaakov upset. That I sent to Clare and assumed she'd be wise enough not to show to Yaakov, since it was a private conversation about my feelings.

mojavescript: I have no idea what you're talking about, can you elaborate??

oocneoblog: I don't know I don't know I don't know what I'm allowed to say and what I'm not I'm sorry I'm sorry

I thought Yaakov told you and that was why you removed me

oocneoblog: Oh no no no I've said too much you didn't know oh no no please i didn't mean to i just want the reminders to stop but i can't do that without talking but i don't want to spread all that shit among people that didn't know because that's shit spreading and i don't want to do that i don't want to alienate anyone

mojavescript: Yakko told me that they were uncomfortable with the slur usage, that's it. That's why I removed you. I thought that's what you were talking about.

oocneoblog: No

I hadn't even done that after you said why would that be the problem i didn't use it again

oocneoblog: i don't see how i can explain without going into things that happened months ago but suffice to say clare said something about a previous argument i had with yaakov about a friend of mine and that's why i sent what i sent, because she said she couldn't understand

she kept saying she couldn't understand why i'd said what i said that time so i tried to explain

oocneoblog: but she showed it to yaakov and i didn't know until i saw that vaguepost

and then you removed me the very next day

oocneoblog: nobody understands that i need to be told if i'm doing something wrong

if i'm upsetting them i need to know because i don't do that intentionally

i'm not an allistic i can't pick up on these things i can't always know if something i'm about to say is going to hurt someone

mojavescript: Can I ask Clare what happened so I can get a better idea of what went down?

oocneoblog: I don't know. I don't know what I'm allowed to do. I promised to leave them alone but that was before these thoughts started trailing me everywhere

mojavescript: Are you still following them? If you are, maybe it's in your best interest to unfollow them?

oocneoblog: I'm not following either of them

Haven't for a long time

mojavescript: Okay. I'm gonna talk to Clare.

oocneoblog: i was already uncomfortable around her because of things she'd said to me before

mojavescript: What things?

oocneoblog: patronising things, when i was upset, things like "i get that empathy is difficult but just try putting yourself into someone else's shoes" when i'm not allistic, my brain works differently so what's good for me isn't what's good for an allistic

but when i tried to explain that i got talked over and accused of trying to friend-dump yaakov post suicide attempt

oocneoblog: did you tell yaakov i was talking about them

mojavescript: From Clare: "okay so I mentioned to a mutual friend of ours that I was uncomfortable w ted, & I guess the friend in turn mentioned this to ted, bc I woke up to 15 messages about why yorick sucks and I let them get away with everything

So this is in relation to what went down, I think.

oocneoblog: she said to mutual friend she was uncomfortable talking to said friend because of things that i said

and she repeatedly said "i can't understand how anyone would ever think those things are okay to say to someone"

oocneoblog: so i tried to explain how i had felt and why

that is what i sent here

*her

it was never meant to be a list of reasons yaakov sucks

mojavescript: I don't know exactly how to help you, since I'm so removed from the situation, in addition to the fact that I have no idea what was said between you, Yaakov, or Clare. I understand that you're hurting, but I don't know what to do to help you. I'm sorry.

oocneoblog: did you tell yaakov

mojavescript: No, but Clare might've??

oocneoblog: she must have

mojavescript: Again, I have no idea what's going on so I don't know how I can help.

oocneoblog: it's out of your hands now

oocneoblog: i'm sorry

mojavescript: ???

oocneoblog: yaakov is saying things to me on skype

(assuming you're looking for context)

oocneoblog: so yaakov admitted it had nothing to do with slur usage and everything to do with our argument

i don't know how to feel anymore

i guess i feel vulnerable

idk

oocneoblog: they said "have a nice day" and i don't think i ever can after this

idk idk idk i'm sorry it's not your fault i shouldn't have brought it up i'm awful i shouldn't have said anything

oocneoblog: but they have this big support group they can tell anything to and everyone will believe them

mojavescript: Listen, Ted, you're right, you shouldn't've brought this up to me. The situation has been resolved, and bringing it up will only make it start back up again. Even if you haven't made peace with this, others have, and you'll have to find peace your own way that doesn't involve dredging up drama that's been resolved.

oocneoblog: I didn't mean to dredge anything up I'm so sorry.

I'm sorry I put you through this stress I really am.

I'm sorry.

---

[02/05/2016 23:04:22] 🍏 yaakov: ted idk what your deal is but i would appreciate if you would stop bringing up the situation from months ago, again and again, to people who were not even involved

i already asked you to stop talking about me to other people and everything was fine but now you've brought it up again, just like you brought it up to clare before

i don't know what you want but you ssid you'd leave me alone

messaging my friends and forcing them to be trapped in the crossfire of a situation that could have been over months ago is not leaving me alone

i don't talk about you or mention you to my friends until you bring it up again, so i'm not sure why you're so insistent on talking about me with people.

just let the situation die. it's already resolved. thanks

[02/05/2016 23:05:51] Ted: it's not though

[02/05/2016 23:05:57] Ted: I got no closure

[02/05/2016 23:06:04] Ted: i only got isolation

[02/05/2016 23:06:14] Ted: and now i have intrusive thoughts

[02/05/2016 23:06:26] Ted: who even told you i was talking about you

[02/05/2016 23:06:34] Ted: i wasn't talking about you, i was talking about me

[02/05/2016 23:08:04] Ted: i have literally no one to talk to about how traumatised i feel

[02/05/2016 23:13:04] 🍏 yaakov: you are 4 years older than i am and stalked my blog and sent 35 messages of shit talk about me to my partner when she said she felt uncomfortable talking to gabby because of what you said to me. you told me to seek therapy for my "destructive behavior"

im not isolating you. i distanced myself to keep myself safe from abuse.

[02/05/2016 23:13:19] Ted: i did not

[02/05/2016 23:13:22] Ted: i never said that

[02/05/2016 23:14:20] Ted: I try to help everyone, and sometimes that means pointing out destructive behavioural patterns. That's what my psychologists have done for me in the past and a lot of my friends have found it helpful.

[02/05/2016 23:14:27] Ted: how is that telling you to seek therapy

[02/05/2016 23:14:58] Ted: i was worried about you because of the vagueposting and i know how hurtful it can feel to see a vaguepost

[02/05/2016 23:15:16] Ted: what i sent to clare was supposed to be an explanation of my emotions

[02/05/2016 23:15:34] Ted: i really do not understand why she sent it to you

[02/05/2016 23:15:43] Ted: she must have known it would upset you

[02/05/2016 23:16:51] 🍏 yaakov: probably the same reason you told gabby what i posted in the first place that started all this!

or maybe not

i still don't know why you did that

[02/05/2016 23:17:00] Ted: i didn't tell her what you posted

[02/05/2016 23:17:20] Ted: or that you posted about her

[02/05/2016 23:19:44] 🍏 yaakov: ok. i don't really care either way because

a. it was months ago

b. i said i want to be left alone

i only sent you a message because you brought it up again and here we are, with you talking about it again, not leaving me alone

[02/05/2016 23:20:11] Ted: you used to care

[02/05/2016 23:20:19] 🍏 yaakov: [2:43:53 AM] Ted: Look, idk why you think it's okay to give yaakov a free pass to inflict whatever hurt they might while venting, then tell someone with autism that they're manipulative and controlling for doing the exact same thing (only in that instance I was trying to reach out, to help. Yaakov was doing no such thing.)

i don't after this

[02/05/2016 23:21:33] Ted: clare told gabby she was uncomfortable talking to gabby because of things that i had supposedly said to you

[02/05/2016 23:22:21] Ted: why did you ask bean to remove me from the group chat

[02/05/2016 23:23:03] 🍏 yaakov: i don't feel safe around you after everything that happened

hence the request to leave me alone

[02/05/2016 23:23:18] Ted: why did you ask bean to remove me from the chat

[02/05/2016 23:23:29] Ted: it was a neogames chat

[02/05/2016 23:25:25] 🍏 yaakov: 🍏 yaakov - Today 6:23 PM

> i don't feel safe around you after everything that happened

doesn't matter what the chat was about, i didn't want you in there. you were removed after you sent clare that 20-point list of reasons i'm a horrible person, and i told bean i don't feel safe around you

[02/05/2016 23:25:45] Ted: bean was under the impression it was because i had used a certain word

[02/05/2016 23:26:28] 🍏 yaakov: it didn't have anything to do with that, though she might have read it that way

[02/05/2016 23:26:35] Ted: it was never meant to be a list of reasons you were a horrible person

[02/05/2016 23:26:51] Ted: i was just trying to explain how i felt

[02/05/2016 23:27:25] Ted: why did you see fit to isolate me from the first group chat i'd attempted in months

[02/05/2016 23:28:05] 🍏 yaakov: why did you see fit to tell me you didn't want to be friends an hour after i attempted suicide?

[02/05/2016 23:28:45] 🍏 yaakov: do you need anything else because i'd like this conversation to end

you make me feel unsafe

that is the answer to any future question you might have

[02/05/2016 23:29:23] Ted: because i knew that the communication difficulties that led to it would happen again, and lo and behold they did. i did want to be friends with you. but i didn't want to hurt you again, and i didn't want you to hurt me again. friends don't say things that make friends attempt suicide.

[02/05/2016 23:29:54] 🍏 yaakov: Ted - Today 6:29 PM

> friends don't say things that make friends attempt suicide.

exactly

[02/05/2016 23:29:59] 🍏 yaakov: have a nice day ted

[02/05/2016 23:30:23] Ted: so you're agreeing with me now after guilt tripping me into staying friends with you when i knew it was a bad idea???????

[02/05/2016 23:30:46] Ted: do you even know how i felt

[02/05/2016 23:31:04] Ted: i can never get anything right

[02/05/2016 23:31:12] 🍏 yaakov: go to hell, i had just attempted suicide

i almost died and i wasn't with my wits

i said have a nice day ted

[02/05/2016 23:31:20] Ted: fuck you

[03/05/2016 00:04:32] *** Ted blocked Loops [[removed]] DELETING SKYPE ***

---

---

[03/05/2016 00:04:55] *** Ted blocked Clare 🐻 ***

[04/05/2016 23:21:10] Ted: i'm sorry. I know I tend to go on and on about things, especially when I don't fully understand what's going on. i'm sorry to make you feel like I was putting you in a stressful position, and i'm sorry I put you in a stressful position. I really don't know how not to be like this. I have trouble letting things go if I feel the issues were unresolved, and that's what put us in this mess. like, I don't necessarily want forgiveness. I don't think I want things to go back to the way they were. I just want some kind of resolution that puts everything to rest, not just a cold truce like has happened before.

[04/05/2016 23:21:49 | Edited 23:22:53] Ted: like, I still don't understand why I was removed from the chat. but that's specifically because bean told me not to worry after i'd apologised. it's not your problem.

[04/05/2016 23:25:12] Clare 🐻: It's not that you have to stop being this way, it's just that it's better to communicate directly, I guess? I have a hard time letting things go too, so I feel you there. What kind of a resolution are you looking for, ideally?

& I haven't really talked to Bean about it but my understanding was it was because of Cr*zy & people being uncomfortable with that? I could be wrong idk

[04/05/2016 23:25:41 | Edited 23:24:52] Ted: i guess i'll have to talk that over with bean then.

[04/05/2016 23:29:06] Ted: idk, one that ties up loose ends i suppose. from what gabby relayed to me, i'm satisfied that you understand where i was coming from and why it hurt me so badly. do you understand that i wasn't trying to turn anyone against Yaakov?

[04/05/2016 23:30:30] Ted: (shit, that wasn't supposed to sound sanctimonious. i'm sorry.)

[04/05/2016 23:31:56] Clare 🐻: I understand that you weren't trying to like, talk people into thinking he's evil or anything

to me it's more like... the way you were describing the situation was Bound To make people feel uncomfortable, I guess

[04/05/2016 23:32:30] Ted: i was trying to be as objective as possible. idk what else i could have done.

[04/05/2016 23:33:21] Ted: idk, i guess i was trying to be fair

[04/05/2016 23:34:32] Clare 🐻: yeah, I get that, I just felt like it was a misrepresentation of yorick's actions

[04/05/2016 23:34:49] Clare 🐻: it made me feel like you don't understand

[04/05/2016 23:35:23] Ted: i'm not going to understand all of it

[04/05/2016 23:36:03] Ted: i'm not jewish, I've not lived Yaakov's life, i don't know anything other than what they've been comfortable confiding with me

[04/05/2016 23:36:33] Clare 🐻: ah well I don't mean that you need to like. live his life or anything

[04/05/2016 23:36:52] Clare 🐻: just that it made me feel like you hadn't listened to us when we talked about it

[04/05/2016 23:37:07] Ted: i felt like neither of you had listened to me

[04/05/2016 23:38:28] Ted: like, i don't want to go into all that mess again, i just want you to know that i too felt i'd been dealt with unjustly

[04/05/2016 23:39:17] Ted: and that some of the things you were accusing me of were things that i hadn't done but you or Yaakov had, if you understand

[04/05/2016 23:40:38] Clare 🐻: I don't understand

[04/05/2016 23:40:41] Clare 🐻: which things

[04/05/2016 23:43:02] Ted: misrepresentation, accusations, trying to turn people against them. that sort of thing

[04/05/2016 23:44:58] Ted: (the trying to turn people against them thing... i'm not accusing them of doing anything like that on purpose but what with the timing of my expulsion from the group... i kinda thought they'd told bean (and potentially the whole group) the same exaggerated things they'd said in their vagueposts about me)

[04/05/2016 23:46:13] Ted: (and what with [[removed]] saying Yaakov was very uncomfortable with whomever it was from Scotland viewing their blog)

[04/05/2016 23:47:05] Ted: (like, i didn't feel safe. that's all i'm trying to say here i guess.)

[04/05/2016 23:53:39] Clare 🐻: Okay well. Misrepresentation is different from misinterpretation imo like. I still don't fully understand what you were going for, no matter how much you explain it. If I don't get it, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't ever deliberately skew things.

Idk I think we're both guilty of accusations--you accused both me and yakko of some serious shit, you know?

And I can say with 100% honesty neither I nor Yorick has ever tried to turn someone against you. You were expelled from the group because people were uncomfortable with the slur usage, & your explanations thereof. Yakko may have mentioned to Bean that he was uncomfortable w that; I honestly don't know.

[04/05/2016 23:56:44] Ted: from what i could gather, Yaakov told bean they were uncomfortable with me and bean assumed it was because of the slur. i don't know why she removed me as a contact but like i say i'd have to take it up with her. i'm not blaming anyone i just want to get to the bottom of it.

[04/05/2016 23:57:26] Ted: (could you clarify what i accused you of?)

[04/05/2016 23:59:55] Clare 🐻: well, you accused me of being patronizing and making you hypothetically suicidal

& you called yakko a bully, and destructive, and a whole bunch of shit that i'm not gonna list

[05/05/2016 00:00:10] Ted: i didn't call Yaakov a bully

[05/05/2016 00:00:40] Ted: there is a big difference between "i feel bullied" and "i'm being bullied"

[05/05/2016 00:00:40] Clare 🐻: okay, well, who were you calling a bully

[05/05/2016 00:00:56] Clare 🐻: I don't understand

[05/05/2016 00:01:00 | Edited 00:01:39] Ted: i said i felt bullied, regardless of whether Yaakov was a bully or not

[05/05/2016 00:01:21] Ted: i was being honest that it was my emotional response and not anything objective

[05/05/2016 00:02:12] Ted: tbh i kinda felt like you'd kind of ganged up on me, but we already sorted out that that wasn't the case now

[05/05/2016 00:04:01] Ted: by the way, i don't think making mistakes makes you a bad person

[05/05/2016 00:04:20] Ted: i don't think unintentionally upsetting people makes you a bad person

[05/05/2016 00:04:39] Ted: i don't even think lashing out at someone you feel is hurting you makes you a bad person

[05/05/2016 00:05:34] Clare 🐻: i don't know what to say to that. neither do i, i guess? it's how you deal with your mistakes that determines your character

[05/05/2016 00:06:18] Ted: i know i tried to learn from mine

---

[05/05/2016 00:08:12] Clare 🐻: i don't know what kind of resolution you're looking for, or what peace i can offer you

[05/05/2016 00:08:47] Clare 🐻: you were kicked from the chat because multiple people were uncomfortable with the slur usage & the way you addressed it

[05/05/2016 00:08:49] Clare 🐻: that's all i know

[05/05/2016 00:09:06] Ted: i apologised and never used the slur in the chat again

[05/05/2016 00:09:36] Clare 🐻: yes, but you continued to use it outside the chat

[05/05/2016 00:09:51] Clare 🐻: & your posts justifying it made people uncomfortable

[05/05/2016 00:10:16] Ted: have you ever had a psychotic breakdown

[05/05/2016 00:10:36] Clare 🐻: i don't feel comfortable answering that question

[05/05/2016 00:10:48] Ted: look, my usage of it is a response to stigma, not any attempt to perpetuate stigma

[05/05/2016 00:11:06] Clare 🐻: I understand that

[05/05/2016 00:11:16] Clare 🐻: and I understood where you were coming from

[05/05/2016 00:11:25] Clare 🐻: but people were still uncomfortable

[05/05/2016 00:11:33] Ted: and it being implied otherwise, behind my back, is what was so triggering to me that i had to reblog those posts justifying it

[05/05/2016 00:12:03] Ted: as i said before it's very hard to make amends with someone when you don't know who to make amends to

[05/05/2016 00:12:13] Ted: i'm sorry. i thought you were blaming me again.

[05/05/2016 00:12:17] Ted: i'm sorry.

[05/05/2016 00:13:34] Clare 🐻: I understand needing to know who was interpreting things that way, but I don't think even bean knows all of them. She got multiple messages, some on anon--and I don't think that anyone thought you were using the name Crazy to uphold the stigma. It's just the fact that it was a slur.

[05/05/2016 00:13:50] Clare 🐻: & they didn't find your justifications to be Reason Enough to use a slur.

[05/05/2016 00:14:07] Ted: i'm just sick of having to explain this time and time again and for people to not understand the context of why. i shouldn't have to bring up my history of mental health woes to justify it. it's not a universally agreed-upon slur within the mental health community.

[05/05/2016 00:15:10] Ted: i didn't hear of its designation as a slur until a couple of years after i joined tumblr, by which point even if i wanted to change it i couldn't

[05/05/2016 00:16:25] Ted: on top of the fact that i didn't name him that, he named himself that. and i didn't see a problem with it at the time so i went along with it.

[05/05/2016 00:18:35] Clare 🐻: Slurs don't need to universal to hurt people. In the same way that it's uncool to have a character named like, Queer, it's going to upset enough members of the community that it's representative of that there are other things to do. Other names to give.

[05/05/2016 00:18:59] Clare 🐻: Nobody sat down and said "wow ted is super ableist" it was just. "this is a slur and it makes me uncomfortable"

[05/05/2016 00:19:55] Ted: it felt like that was what they were saying

[05/05/2016 00:20:17] Clare 🐻: i can understand why it would

[05/05/2016 00:20:31] Clare 🐻: but no one said that. i don't think anyone even thought it

[05/05/2016 00:20:42] Ted: then why didn't they come to me

[05/05/2016 00:21:14] Clare 🐻: I think some people did, didn't they? You got messages about it

[05/05/2016 00:21:20] Ted: i didn't

[05/05/2016 00:21:22] Ted: at all

[05/05/2016 00:21:29] Ted: only from bean

[05/05/2016 00:22:16] Ted: i had to hear from bean that a group of people found it "disturbing that anyone would call their oc that"

[05/05/2016 00:22:32] Ted: a group of people i wanted so badly to call my friends

[05/05/2016 00:27:18] Clare 🐻: I don't know why no one messaged you. They may not have been comfortable approaching you, or maybe they just didn't know your url.

I don't know who among the chat had/voiced objections. I think it was good that you apologized in the chat but outside of the chat your actions didn't really reflect that, you know? It seemed like you were justifying its continued usage, not apologizing for the past.

[05/05/2016 00:28:31] Ted: i apologised for its use outside of my blog, where only people who are comfortable with it would follow me anyway

[05/05/2016 00:29:20] Clare 🐻: Okay

[05/05/2016 00:29:28] Clare 🐻: Like I said, I don't know who objected, so

[05/05/2016 00:29:35] Clare 🐻: I can't do anything with that information

[05/05/2016 00:29:37] Ted: yeah

[05/05/2016 00:29:46] Ted: like, idk

[05/05/2016 00:30:12] Ted: it did me good to get that out in the open and cleared up with you

[05/05/2016 00:30:31] Ted: thank you

[05/05/2016 00:30:45] Clare 🐻: Yeah, no problem, I'm glad I could help

[05/05/2016 00:30:51] Clare 🐻: I wish I could do more

[05/05/2016 00:31:21] Ted: even just that is a massive relief

[05/05/2016 00:32:09] Clare 🐻: what is? talking it out?

[05/05/2016 00:32:33] Ted: yeah, and knowing that you understand

[05/05/2016 00:33:35] Ted: i thought you didn't before, and that you held a beef with me for intentions i never had

[05/05/2016 00:34:21] Clare 🐻: Oh, yeah, definitely

it's a huge relief to actually Discuss Things

[05/05/2016 00:34:32] Ted: yes. i'm sorry i was so scared before.

[05/05/2016 00:35:13] Clare 🐻: i'm sorry i made you feel like you had to be

[05/05/2016 00:36:34] Ted: do you think i'm allowed to interact with Yaakov's posts or should i still avoid doing that

[05/05/2016 00:36:59] Clare 🐻: i'd still avoid it if i were you

[05/05/2016 00:37:07] Ted: okay, good to know

[05/05/2016 00:37:10] Clare 🐻: he's upset and scared himself

[05/05/2016 00:37:27] Ted: yeah

[05/05/2016 00:37:58] Ted: i wish there was something i could do about that but if leaving them alone is the best option then so be it

[05/05/2016 00:38:22] Ted: at least i don't have to be scared anymore. thank you clare

[05/05/2016 00:39:42] Clare 🐻: for real, no problem. thanks for talking to me about it

---

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06/28/2016 [[To Azzy. He never responded.]]

oocneoblog: could you tell me what you mean by what i've done before

i don't want to have a go at you i just want to know so i can think about it and hopefully modify my behaviour

07/12/2016

oocneoblog: please tell me it's been bugging me and i don't have the context to figure out which incident(s) you were talking about

---

[29/06/2016 04:39:20] Ted: What should I do now

[29/06/2016 04:41:58] Ted: I saw that post at a bad time when I was already triggered by something else

[29/06/2016 04:42:09] Ted: I really don't know what to do

[29/06/2016 06:20:10] Clare 🐻: I don't know there's anything you can do, really

just like, apologize sincerely, explain if you feel like you gotta but don't make excuses, wrap 'er on up

[29/06/2016 06:20:17] Clare 🐻: at least that's what i'd do

[29/06/2016 10:36:13] Ted: I already apologised tough. I apologised as soon as I saw yaakov's response and I realised I'd fucked up

[29/06/2016 10:37:04] Ted: Apologising again would just be saying the same things and I'd look like I was dragging it out

[29/06/2016 10:40:45] Ted: Honestly though, this is probably going to keep happening. I'm super paranoid and anyone I talk to who isn't friends with yaakov only makes my paranoia worse. I'm not sure if anyone realised how traumatic the first two incidents were for me. Instead of support and a chance to heal I get more anxiety, paranoia, sleepless nights and palpitations. I don't know what's wrong with me

[29/06/2016 10:57:13] Ted: Sticky thoughts. That's what's wrong with me. That's why I can't just leave a situation unresolved and forget about it forever.

[29/06/2016 11:00:51] Ted: I need to talk to the people involved and sort it out or else seek help from someone else to sort it for me. But it's clear none of you guys ever want to talk to me about what happened because it gave me negative feelings about yaakov. I can't tell who likes me and who is uncomfortable around me unless something happens. I just walk straight into it and then it looks like I'm doing it on purpose.

[29/06/2016 11:02:39] Ted: So I don't say anything but then it just builds up and builds up and something innocuous ends up triggering a complete system shutdown. I don't know how to stop this from happening.

[29/06/2016 22:42:39] Ted: maybe I was in the wrong for not wanting to vent to or reveal things to people who already disliked yaakov

[29/06/2016 22:47:38] Ted: idk it's just so complicated and I never know the right thing to do, balancing my needs with my desire not to be a burden on other people (would be easier if I even knew what my needs were half the time, but that only ever seems to come out when i'm too emotional to think clearly about my impact on other people. and that's a harmful trend. I know that. I just don't know what to do about it)

[29/06/2016 23:06:23] Clare 🐻: I don't really know what to say, then

If talking to people who don't like yakko makes you more paranoid, then I guess--don't do that?

The people who do like yakko... I guess I can only speak for me, but I don't want to talk about it because it was upsetting as hell, not because it made you not like yakko

We can talk about it if you want but I dont have much to say tbqh

If you need more support re: the first two incidents then I'm sorry, but I can't give it to you

[29/06/2016 23:10:12] Ted: it wasn't just that it made me more paranoid, also that I felt it would be wrong of me to give them more cause to dislike Yaakov, I guess. idk, i'm all muddled about it. but i'll stick to people who dislike Yaakov then. they're probably in a better place to give me support. i'm sorry about all this.

[29/06/2016 23:32:30] Clare 🐻: I know I can't like, magically change your opinion, and maybe I shouldn't even try to but like

Yorick is a good person, I know you guys have some issues & you're probably right when you say yall are incompatible but

I don't think doubling down is the right thing to do here

You should do whatever you think is best, like get the support you need, but don't just dislike yakko because it's easier, you know

[29/06/2016 23:33:21] Ted: it just felt a lot of the time like I was being punished for saying I was hurt

[29/06/2016 23:36:33] Clare 🐻: How do you mean

[29/06/2016 23:40:41] Ted: like, do you remember when I left that first group chat?

[29/06/2016 23:41:16] Ted: idk, that's probably not a true example

[29/06/2016 23:42:07] Ted: I just... whenever I told anyone I was upset, Yaakov would end up thinking I was attacking them

[29/06/2016 23:46:30] Ted: i mean fair enough in this instance i was definitely lashing out, but it's never felt like anyone was taking my emotional state into account when judging my actions

[29/06/2016 23:47:01] Ted: (that was true of the first group chat, the second misunderstanding, and everything since)

[30/06/2016 00:14:00] Clare 🐻: I get why you'd feel like that but I don't think it was necessarily... Relevant?

Not to say your emotional state doesn't matter but just that it doesn't automatically excuse the stuff you did, you feel me

Like you can't do this with impunity you know? It's not a get out of responsibility free card. People can take your feelings into account and still disagree with your actions

Without touching on past situations like, this time you haven't apologized to Yorick or explained the situation to your followers beyond "I fucked up," which has led to yakko getting a whole mess of anon hate

And like yeah, you were upset, I get that. If I had been in your situation & under the impressions you were under, I woulda been much the same, especially if it seemed like nobody was considering my feelings on the matter. But it's just not a matter of people looking at you and saying objectively like, "wow let's judge ted's actions," there are other factors at play that are going to affect their priorities in addressing the situation

[30/06/2016 00:15:09] Ted: "ok sorry sorry tou should have told mei fucked up i fucked up i fucked up i’m sorry"

[30/06/2016 00:15:22] Ted: and i didn't know about the anon hate

[30/06/2016 00:15:26] Ted: that's harsh

[30/06/2016 00:17:57] Ted: man, nothing's coming out right anymore. it's just... you've told me before i think that i have to forgive Yaakov for things they do when they're emotional, so it feels unfair. i don't know. i'm probably missing the point. the "other factors in play" are the things i have trouble processing so that's why i get so scared and confused when people are having a go at me

[30/06/2016 00:18:10] Ted: idk idk

[30/06/2016 00:18:22] Ted: i'm sorry

[30/06/2016 00:19:09] Ted: anon hate is horrible and detestable and people shouldn't do it, and i'm sorry i caused this mess. what do you want me to tell my followers?

[30/06/2016 00:20:26] Ted: the main thing i'm having trouble with is why Yaakov pretended to like dr. sloth, and if people i was talking to knew that

[30/06/2016 00:20:56] Ted: there are so many things i wish i could take back

[30/06/2016 00:21:26] Ted: things that were really fucked up in the new context but not in the context i knew at the time

[30/06/2016 00:24:39] Clare 🐻: You don't have to forgive Yorick for anything, you should never feel pressured to forgive someone

I wasn't really aware of yakko's opinions re: sloth so I don't know if anyone else was

I'm assuming yakko pretended to like them so as not to hurt your feelings but tbh we haven't talked about it so I honestly don't know

I know Yorick would want to talk to you if it meant yall could get some resolution, maybe you should ask about it?

[30/06/2016 00:25:14] Ted: i think i'm too traumatised to do that

[30/06/2016 00:27:15] Ted: and the amount of people who have told me to leave Yaakov alone, if it went bad again, they would yell at me and tell me to leave tumblr, or something

[30/06/2016 00:27:45] Ted: i can't risk it going wrong again i just can't

[30/06/2016 00:29:30] Ted: if you weren't aware of Yaakov's opinions about sloth and you knew that we had had a fight and you saw them suddenly change from headcanoning sloth from trans to saying they don't like sloth and therefore sloth is cis... what did you think? what would you think? what would anyone else who was following Yaakov think?

[30/06/2016 00:31:28] Clare 🐻: Well again I can only speak for me but my immediate instinct was "Yorick doesn't like that shade of green" which tbqh doesn't make a lot of sense

[30/06/2016 00:32:27] Clare 🐻: I really don't think yakko would react like that, like. I don't have the answers to all your questions you know? Yorick isn't gonna run you out of town for trying to get closure

[30/06/2016 00:32:54] Ted: i don't mean Yaakov, i mean the people who reblogged after them

[30/06/2016 00:33:02] Ted: and whoever it was sent me those anons

[30/06/2016 00:33:07] Ted: the mean ones

[30/06/2016 00:33:11] Ted: or one

[30/06/2016 00:33:18] Ted: i can't remember if it was one or two

[30/06/2016 00:34:50] Clare 🐻: Oh, oh

[30/06/2016 00:34:52] Clare 🐻: I see

[30/06/2016 00:35:18] Clare 🐻: God I don't know what fucking possesses people to send mean anons

[30/06/2016 00:35:29] Clare 🐻: Like fight people to their face

[30/06/2016 00:35:34] Ted: exactly

[30/06/2016 00:36:06] Ted: (sometimes it's mania, but that's not what you were going for)

[30/06/2016 00:36:53] Ted: what was it you wanted me to say to my followers?

[30/06/2016 00:36:58] Clare 🐻: Sometimes what's mania

[30/06/2016 00:37:25] Ted: what possesses people to send mean anons

[30/06/2016 00:37:39] Clare 🐻: Oh idk

If it were me I'd just be like "just a misunderstanding sorry folks" or smnthn I dunno

[30/06/2016 00:37:54] Clare 🐻: Ahhh

[30/06/2016 00:38:02] Clare 🐻: Yeah true

[30/06/2016 00:39:33] Ted: tbh, i think most of the anons Yaakov gets are probably from the same few people who look for reasons  to hurt them

[30/06/2016 00:39:47] Clare 🐻: I think so too

[30/06/2016 00:40:13] Clare 🐻: I know a few are from that Bradford kid, who doesn't seem to know they're blocked

[30/06/2016 01:26:26] Ted: idk, i still feel like i'm being perceived as a genuinely nasty person. i mean that's probably wrong. it's the only thing i can get from people's reactions, and after this point there's probably nothing i could do that would salvage that. i don't know if they realise i made a mistake, or how obvious it looked at the time. idk. i'm sorry. i should leave you alone. i'm sorry.

---

[30/06/2016 07:46:16] Clare 🐻: shit sorry I didn't see this

I really don't think anyone thinks of you as being nasty, tbh like

it's never been like "either yakko's evil or ted is" you know

sometimes shit just happens but it's how we deal w it that reflects on us

[30/06/2016 10:17:31] Ted: No one ever listens to my explanations though. I know because the next time it comes up they just say the thing they originally said I had done even after I explained and it makes me feel so villainised because then I have to explain myself all over again and it's upsetting and it's triggering and it reminds me that I'll never be accepted by allistic authority figures when they think I've done something wrong

[30/06/2016 10:28:29] Clare 🐻: I dunno I mean. maybe they listen and they just didn't understand, or they thought things would be different the second time around? you don't need to give people explanations unless they ask for them

[30/06/2016 10:29:47] Ted: people not understanding what I mean is a common thing and I don't know what else to do because often i'm literally saying exactly what I mean and they still don't get it

[30/06/2016 10:34:23] Clare 🐻: i don't know either

[30/06/2016 10:35:36] Ted: that's why it really gets to me when people don't think i'm being honest because what else can I do other than find someone to advocate for me? but then that puts pressure on them as well

[30/06/2016 10:37:43] Clare 🐻: do people think you're being dishonest?

[30/06/2016 10:38:34] Ted: they think i'm not telling the whole truth, or that i'm fudging the facts in my favour on the whole, because that's what they expect people to do even when they're being "honest"

[30/06/2016 10:41:43] Ted: and sometimes yeah, they do think i'm being dishonest, or manipulative, or that I haven't bothered to look at anything from a different perspective

[30/06/2016 10:43:47] Clare 🐻: hmm

[30/06/2016 10:43:49] Clare 🐻: i see

[30/06/2016 10:54:12] Ted: like, bean for instance. i don't know what to do about bean. i don't know how she feels about me at all, but i still feel like i was treated unfairly (though i can understand potential reasons) and that means if i talk to her about it she's going to end up feeling attacked. and if i say i'm not meaning to have a go at her or blame her or anything, that's not going to give any reassurance and she's still going to be hurt but i don't know what else to do. if i keep it to myself i'll just keep being hurt by it. but i want to know if i'm wrong because if i'm being distant for no reason that also is not good.

[30/06/2016 10:54:24] Ted: i don't know, everything's a muddle

[30/06/2016 10:56:21] Clare 🐻: you feel like you were treated unfairly by bean, or by other ppl & bean disagreed

[30/06/2016 10:58:39] Ted: she told me not to worry about a certain issue then removed me for supposedly that same issue when there hadn't been an incident since

[30/06/2016 10:58:44] Ted: i don't see how that's fair

[30/06/2016 10:59:33] Ted: she didn't even tell me why she removed me, she removed me as a contact as well, asriel blocked me, so what did the evidence suggest?

[30/06/2016 11:00:20] Clare 🐻: ahhh

[30/06/2016 11:00:27] Clare 🐻: yeah i feel you

[30/06/2016 11:01:08] Clare 🐻: idk maybe she should've talked to you about it but i know there were several people who approached her

[30/06/2016 11:01:21] Clare 🐻: idk about any incident but we're talking about Crazy, right?

[30/06/2016 11:01:26] Ted: yeah

[30/06/2016 11:02:03] Ted: i was told not to mention his name in the chat, and i apologised for mentioning his name in the chat, and then i never said his name in the chat again

[30/06/2016 11:02:23] Ted: and i was told not to worry about it

[30/06/2016 11:02:57] Ted: i feel like i was cut out of the discussion

[30/06/2016 11:03:59 | Edited 11:02:42] Ted: and if it's because of things i said on my blog, i was triggered and fragile and trying to reassure myself that everything would be okay and that i wasn't a horrible person for having a character response to ableism and stigma

[30/06/2016 11:06:01] Ted: do you understand?

[30/06/2016 11:06:23] Clare 🐻: i do

[30/06/2016 11:07:02] Clare 🐻: i don't really know what to tell you, though

i wasn't involved in that stuff while it was going on & i haven't talked to the other people involved about it

[30/06/2016 11:07:18] Clare 🐻: but i get what you're saying

[30/06/2016 11:07:45] Clare 🐻: & why you feel it was unfair

[30/06/2016 11:08:11] Ted: and i still don't know whether approaching bean about it would be the right thing to do

[30/06/2016 11:09:03] Ted: because i don't think she understands how it made me feel, and if i try to explain then she'll feel like i'm trying to guilt trip her

[30/06/2016 11:10:18] Ted: or that i'm trying to make her feel bad about it

[30/06/2016 11:10:36] Ted: or that i think it was all her fault

[30/06/2016 11:11:32] Ted: when i know that she was under pressure, and that she wasn't part of anyone conspiring against me

[30/06/2016 11:13:12] Clare 🐻: as far as i know she understands, i know she felt bad about it but she was trying to do what was best for the chat?

[30/06/2016 11:14:22] Ted: i had no indication of her understanding. she just kept telling me it was my fault.

[30/06/2016 11:15:06] Clare 🐻: she said that?

[30/06/2016 11:15:48] Ted: i'll look. it's what i felt like she was saying but i probably misinterpreted

[30/06/2016 11:17:14] Clare 🐻: okay well in the mean time I've gotta hit the sack so i guess let me know

[30/06/2016 11:17:41] Ted: "The situation has been resolved, and bringing it up will only make it start back up again. Even if you haven't made peace with this, others have, and you'll have to find peace your own way that doesn't involve dredging up drama that's been resolved."

[30/06/2016 11:22:30] Ted: ok that was the last message but this is the first message "Hi there, you were removed from the group because several people were made to feel unsafe, including Yaakov/Yorick. Although it may not affect you, others were feeling extremely uncomfortable about the slurs you were using. It's been months now, so I'm not entirely sure why you're bringing this up." when i'd said in my first message that i tried to wait until i was less paranoid but i was having intrusive and sticky thoughts and that's why i was contacting her about it

[30/06/2016 11:25:10] Ted: ok i hope you sleep well

[30/06/2016 13:04:59] Ted: "Yakko also asked you to stop talking about them to other people." there was that as well

[30/06/2016 13:08:14] Ted: I can see how it would have looked like I was trying to turn their friends against them but really the only reason I chose to talk to people who were friendly with Yaakov and not people who weren't was because I didn't want someone who would automatically take my side.

[30/06/2016 13:09:50] Ted: i know that's stupid and selfish of me, and i see that now, but nobody believes me that i really was just trying desperately not to cause more trouble for them, because i know that Yaakov gets a lot of hate

[02/07/2016 23:53:31 | Edited 23:51:57] Ted: (oh btw i was thinking about the whole evidence thing and I now understand exactly why yaakov reacted the way they did back when gabby was reblogging from terfs, so... thanks for letting me have this conversation I guess. It's opened my eyes)

[03/07/2016 02:03:27] Clare 🐻: it's not stupid or selfish to look for other opinions, it's not automatically a bad thing

the situation w yorick was more about respecting yakko's feelings than any wrongdoing, you know?

[03/07/2016 02:04:43] Ted: No it was stupid and selfish bc I didn't stop to think that maybe the people I was trying to talk to had been traumatised by the situation as well

[03/07/2016 02:05:10] Ted: And wouldn't take kindly to me opening old wounds

[03/07/2016 02:07:01] Ted: I just don't understand what I was supposed to do. I tried to do the right thing, but it ended up being wrong and people thought I was doing it on purpose because it's obvious to them but never to me

[03/07/2016 02:10:02] Ted: And I knew that yaakov was prone to exaggeration, especially when they're upset, so it was pretty much impossible for me to tell if their saying that they never wanted their name to pass my lips again was a reasonable request or not

[03/07/2016 02:13:23] Ted: (do you want the whole conversation with bean? Bc that would make it clear why I thought she was telling me that yaakov lied to her in order to have me removed from the group)

[03/07/2016 02:15:49] Clare 🐻: yeah actually if you think it'd help that'd be cool o:

[03/07/2016 02:21:58] Ted: do you have openoffice? if not I can save it as a word document

[03/07/2016 02:22:49] Clare 🐻: I don't unfortunately

[03/07/2016 02:23:01] Ted: ok

[03/07/2016 02:23:16] Ted: (just trying to make sure it won't carry my name on it)

[03/07/2016 02:27:18] Ted: (some of it wasn't chronologically accurate, and i'm sorry for that)

[03/07/2016 02:40:53] Ted: (i'm also sorry for the stuff I said about you)

[03/07/2016 02:44:09] Ted: (I should have read through it properly again before I sent it so I could warn you)

[03/07/2016 02:44:50] Clare 🐻: heh it's cool

[03/07/2016 02:46:01] Clare 🐻: so to be clear: you thought yorick told bean that the slur usage was uncool in order to have you removed, vs the other stuff that was going down

[03/07/2016 02:46:03] Clare 🐻: ?

[03/07/2016 02:46:12] Ted: yes

[03/07/2016 02:47:07] Clare 🐻: what do you think now

[03/07/2016 02:47:59] Ted: i asked Yaakov at the time when they contacted me over skype and they said all they said was that they felt uncomfortable and bean's interpretation was bean's interpretation

[03/07/2016 02:48:12] Ted: which i took to be true

[03/07/2016 02:50:16] Clare 🐻: yeah that makes sense

[03/07/2016 02:50:39] Clare 🐻: I honestly don't remember who knew what when at this point

[03/07/2016 02:52:18] Ted: and that gave me the impression that bean just doesn't want to associate with me bc i'm a bad person who uses slurs

[03/07/2016 02:54:39] Clare 🐻: bean's interpretation did?

[03/07/2016 02:56:28] Ted: the fact that she didn't tell me why she was removing me from the group, the fact that she removed me as a contact, and the fact that she didn't interact with me whatsoever after that conversation

[03/07/2016 02:58:00] Clare 🐻: ahh

[03/07/2016 03:03:13] Ted: like i know that's probably not the real truth but i have no way of verifying it myself without risking another incident

[03/07/2016 03:06:04] Clare 🐻: yeah I don't think that's the whole truth but I don't really have any way to verify it :/

[03/07/2016 03:08:42] Ted: at this point it's probably too late for me to seek closure on the group chat thing anyway

[03/07/2016 03:09:34] Ted: I've likely just reinforced the views of anyone who thought i was toxic and didn't belong

[03/07/2016 03:11:59] Clare 🐻: i never heard anybody express either of those sentiments

[03/07/2016 03:12:58] Ted: the fact that no one who was uncomfortable with me saying crazy actually came to me kind of suggests that's the case

[03/07/2016 03:15:11] Ted: "Dude why are you getting your underwear in a wad over someone not liking a character you like. This isn’t the first time you’ve done something like this and you need to chill out; at this rate I wouldn’t blame them for not liking you." i asked what he was referring to and didn't get a response

[03/07/2016 03:16:41] Ted: i'd have to unblock the others to see their responses again but, like, they were all pretty much the same

[03/07/2016 03:16:52] Clare 🐻: who was this?

[03/07/2016 03:16:57] Ted: that was asriel

[03/07/2016 03:21:31] Ted: he didn't give enough context for me to know what he was talking about

[03/07/2016 03:23:47] Ted: there's several possibilities but the only one that fits exactly is the skeith hate one, which doesn't make sense because it was about fatphobia and classism?

[03/07/2016 03:25:06] Ted: and i got stuck on r/tumblrinaction for it???

[03/07/2016 03:26:59] Ted: if it was about the mettaton headcanon discrepancy i wasn't angry at all i was just confused and kind of scared because he sounded very upset and i didn't understand

[03/07/2016 03:34:40] Ted: and i was made to feel like the worst kind of transphobe for misunderstanding an ambiguous quote in the game

[03/07/2016 04:09:02] Ted: idk i shouldn't have said that i'm sorry

[03/07/2016 04:10:36] Clare 🐻: when did this happen

[03/07/2016 04:10:54] Ted: in the neogames chat, shortly before i was removed

[03/07/2016 13:33:50] Ted: I was actually in the process of drawing azzy as part of a neogames picture when I got removed and blocked. But there was no point finishing it after that so I abandoned it

[03/07/2016 13:36:06] Ted: I don't know what relevance it has to the conversation other than it being another reminder of what a fuckup I am

[04/07/2016 12:21:06] Ted: ok I think i'm going to try apologising to Yaakov over skype

[04/07/2016 12:22:07] Ted: it's really not fair what they put themself through because of me and I want them to know that

[04/07/2016 12:23:39] Ted: it'll take me a while to type something up, and i'm still very anxious, but it's the only right course of action I can see

[05/07/2016 01:25:21] Clare 🐻: well hey if there's anything I can do to help just let me know ! I know yakko was willing to talk stuff out so this could be good for you guys

[05/07/2016 01:27:35] Ted: Thanks. I sent them a thing earlier. The convo isn't showing up on my mobile though, so I don't know if that'll change if they try to send something back.

[05/07/2016 01:38:04] Clare 🐻: are you guys contacts? idt yorick can get messages from ppl they aren't contacts w so you might have to add each other & resend it

[05/07/2016 01:40:13] Ted: Ah, right. Thanks for the tip! I'll do that tomorrow once I'm free

[05/07/2016 01:41:11] Clare 🐻: finger pistols

good luck!! it's really cool that you're doing this (:

---

[04/07/2016 13:26:26] Ted: I read over the first fight we had on here, and wow, I was really a dick. I can't believe I was so up myself. wow, I mean really. that's just... I totally don't blame you or clare for being uncomfortable with me after that because that was seriously out of line. but yeah, anyway, the reason I was reading that anyway is because I wanted to get things straight before I apologised. because I now know exactly why you were behaving the way you did with the gabby situation, why you assumed that they hated you, why you didn't want to confront them about it, because how were you to know what was going on in their head at the time? you had no way of knowing they were following the terfs as a form of self-harm. you had know way of knowing the only reason they were doing that was because of abuse. and I acted so self-righteous about it. man.

you also couldn't have known that it was bean that mentioned you first in the conversation we had about the neogames group. I wasn't talking about you on purpose, I only wanted to know why i'd been removed. when she mentioned you, I did ask for more details, and she implied she knew everything. it was only then that I mentioned the "list" i'd sent to clare (I don't really have any excuse for that other than trying to protect gabby from what had been my fault in the first place), and bean had no idea what I was talking about. I tried to backtrack and told her I shouldn't have said anything, but it was too late and she asked clare for context. from your perspective it must have seemed like I was trying to turn everyone against you. first it had been clare, and when clare proved fruitless I moved onto bean. I understand how it looked, and I don't blame you for reacting the way you did. from what bean had told me, and from circumstances that surrounded the "list" incident, I took that as confirmation you had been turning people against me. I'm not saying this to excuse myself, but you deserve an explanation. i'm really sorry I had a go at you for that. it wasn't your fault.

and just, I've been looking back at so many things in the new context and i'm thinking what the fuck did I put you through? there are so many things I wish I could take back. I know what it feels like to be pressured into sexual discussions you're uncomfortable with and i'm so sorry I did that to you. you've always shown me such great consideration and compassion and what have I given you in return? i'm sorry I didn't realise earlier how the age difference could be factoring in another sort of pressure. I feel that same pressure to please younger people rather than older people for some reason. I don't know why.

I look back on it all, how I thought this whole time that the problem was that you and your friends didn't understand, and I see that the problem was that I didn't understand. I can see why you might have felt you needed to lie to me about dr. sloth. you didn't need to spare my feelings on that one, but I don't blame you for thinking you needed to. in truth, the character is very important to me. I won't go into why right now because that's not what this is about. but basically, i'm okay with people having a difference of opinion. it's okay to not like something I like, even if it's something I really love. I get upset over character bashing but that's different. i'm used to people not sharing my special interests. the reason I got upset with the headcanon post was the context I interpreted it as still being in. I didn't stop to think about other possibilities as to why you would be feeling that way, and for that I am sorry. I shouldn't have accused you of trying to hurt me. from what i'm aware you've never tried to hurt me, and in fact you've gone to great lengths in the past to avoid hurting me. i'm sorry that you put yourself through that. and i'm sorry that I ever made you feel like you had to pretend.

and above all, i'm sorry for being scared of you. i'm sorry I felt like I couldn't express myself for fear of judgement. and i'm sorry that I didn't understand your side. I understand now, and I understand that I was in the wrong. tbh i'm still scared, but I feel like talking it out honestly with each other is the only way either of us is going to find closure.

[06/07/2016 18:37:35] *** Ted would like to add you on Skype ***

[06/07/2016 18:49:37] *** Loops [[removed]] has shared contact details with Ted. ***

[06/07/2016 18:51:41] 🔫: yo

[06/07/2016 18:52:04] 🔫: your message from monday sent just now so you don't have to resend it

[06/07/2016 18:52:15] Ted: cool, thanks for letting me know

[06/07/2016 18:56:15] 🔫: anyway thank you for talking to me and i forgive you

im sorry how mean i was in that last fight we had, (not the sloth thing, the one before it) i never would have told anyone but i felt bad about screaming at you afterwards

and i'm sorry about the sloth thing too, i really didn't intend for you to see it or for anyone to reblog that from me, it was meant as a reply to the op and not a dig at you, i winced as soon as i saw that you @ me because i knew what it was about

so can we be cool again

we don't have to be buddies but i don't want us to keep blacklisting each other because that's clearly not working out so great huh

[06/07/2016 18:58:37] Ted: ball of anxiety right now so I can't really talk but I wanna send you hugs, is that ok?

[06/07/2016 18:59:36] 🔫: yeah

[06/07/2016 18:59:42] 🔫: you can answer whenever

[06/07/2016 18:59:51] Ted: [hugs]

[06/07/2016 19:00:18] 🔫: (my reply was kind of short too because i didn't know what to do bcs clare's offline)

[10/07/2016 11:15:59] Ted: Don't feel like you have to forgive me in order to stop the drama. There's no ambiguity anymore about why you were acting the way you did, and I know you feel as bad about it as I do. Likewise, take your own time in responding. I want to make sure that we both understand each other and can go forward feeling like we don't have to hide, so please if you have any questions do ask. I'm more than willing to answer (tho it just might take a bit bc of irl stresses and stuff)

---

[16/07/2016 17:02:09] Ted: Could you maybe ask bean if it's ok if I talk to her about why I was removed from the neogames chat again?

[16/07/2016 17:02:35] Ted: (also I keep meaning to say sorry for not wishing you a happy birthday)

[16/07/2016 17:03:23] Ted: (I was still unsure at the time and I didn't want to make you feel awkward)

[17/07/2016 01:38:37] Clare 🐻: She says "yeah totally!"

And thanks! I get that heheh. Birthdays aren't really a big deal to me tbh

---

[17/07/2016 19:31:48] *** Ted would like to add you on Skype ***

[17/07/2016 19:35:59] *** add me on discorp bean#8272 has shared contact details with Ted. ***

[17/07/2016 22:34:35] Ted: hi, i'm gonna have to postpone until tomorrow. really not in a good place mentally right now

[17/07/2016 22:45:36] Ted: (rl stuff)

[18/07/2016 23:19:43] Ted: are you online? (sorry, skype's acting a bit weirdly)

[19/07/2016 22:19:14] gravy fucking sucks and you cant tell me otherwise: sorry for the late reply ;v; I was out all day yesterday, but i'm free now!!

---

[30/07/2016 11:48:24] Ted: Man, sorry for going all quiet on you. My family's been going through a really rough time so they've had to take priority and I haven't been getting to the things I was already in the middle of and it's all been really stressful

[30/07/2016 11:50:42] Ted: Anyway, it'll probably be really difficult to find a time when we're both online, so I wanted to know if you're okay with receiving messages while you're offline?

[30/07/2016 18:51:33] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: i'm okay w/ that!!

[31/07/2016 09:22:26] Ted: So... I guess I'm basically wondering again why everything happened the way it did with the neogames chat, and... I guess I felt hard done by when you told me not to worry and then removed me for the same reason without telling me anything had changed

[31/07/2016 09:29:19] Ted: I did view you as a friend, but I have no idea if you feel the same way so I guess I'm asking that as well. I know I'm liable to making that mistake because I've made it in the past more than once. It's ok if you don't see me as a friend. I know you don't hate me and I know you were under a lot of pressure when the games were going on.

[31/07/2016 09:31:49] Ted: Sorry for being so much trouble

[03/08/2016 17:56:22] Ted: Man, I'm sorry. All I really meant to ask you was why I was removed from the group, since the first conversation kind of got derailed when we started talking about yaakov and when Clare got involved and stuff. I know you weren't really trying to hurt me. I've never thought that.

[03/08/2016 19:51:17] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: aaa, i am so sorry, my message never sent. basically the only reason why you were removed from the group was because Barbie and Yakko were uncomfortable with you being in the group

[03/08/2016 19:53:48] Ted: Barbie? That's very surprising, but ok. Why didn't you tell me?

[03/08/2016 19:55:13] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: At the time, I was very blinded by the situation. Everyone was talking to me at once, you and yakko and Barbie and the neogames chat. Everything was firing off at once. At the same time I wanted to protect the identities of barb and yakko because I didn't want to ruin your relationships with them

[03/08/2016 19:55:41] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: In hindsight, I should've been flat out with you, and I apologize for being so vague and causing you so much stress

[03/08/2016 19:57:31] Ted: I wish people had just talked to me in the first place

[03/08/2016 19:58:43] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: I think they didn't talk to you because they were afraid of hurting your feelings further. They both figured that silence was better than confrontation at the time

[03/08/2016 20:00:45] Ted: I felt like everyone had rejected me

[03/08/2016 20:03:04] Ted: Sorry, I know that's not your fault. I'm still all messed up and stuff irl isn't helping

[03/08/2016 20:03:53] Ted: I'm just still very confused

[03/08/2016 20:03:56] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Yeah, you deserved to hear what actually caused me kicking you out, so don't worry too hard abt contacting me out of the blue

[03/08/2016 20:06:34] Ted: It's just... Kicking me out was supposed to hurt my feelings less than talking things through and telling me what was wrong?

[03/08/2016 20:08:29] Ted: I really don't understand why that was the solution you all came to

[03/08/2016 20:09:56] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: It wasn't my call ultimately. They all wanted to kick you out, but I was trepidatious, but because I was the only admin I was the only one who could kick. I was going through some tough times during this whole thing, so after being warn down I just. Did it

[03/08/2016 20:13:11] Ted: Like, I know why Yaakov wanted me removed

[03/08/2016 20:13:43] Ted: I really don't understand. I apologised.

[03/08/2016 20:14:49] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Sometimes people are just. Deeply affected by what others do, and no matter the amount of apologies it won't really bring things back to where it once was

[03/08/2016 20:15:14] Ted: Then they should have talked to me

[03/08/2016 20:15:35] Ted: I understand trauma. I've been there so many times

[03/08/2016 20:15:39] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Talking to you brought back a lot of bad memories/feelings

[03/08/2016 20:15:50] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: After the incident at hand, that is

[03/08/2016 20:16:22] Ted: Did anyone even think about how it would feel for me?

[03/08/2016 20:17:00] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: That's why Clare and I stepped in as a middleman so to speak, so that way you could feel closure and they could relax

[03/08/2016 20:17:23 | Edited 20:16:59] Ted: When are you meaning?

[03/08/2016 20:18:12] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Like. Right afterwords, Clare started talking to you, and because of irl stuff I wasn't able to help her out consistently until just recently

[03/08/2016 20:18:28] Ted: After what?

[03/08/2016 20:18:45] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: After you got kicked/tried to reach out to yakko

[03/08/2016 20:19:16] Ted: She didn't keep talking to me

[03/08/2016 20:19:29] Ted: She didn't even talk about the group stuff

[03/08/2016 20:20:44] Ted: She just told me "you need to leave yakko alone"

[03/08/2016 20:21:16] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: I think in hindsight we were both too emotionally invested to do the job we set out to do

[03/08/2016 20:22:02] Ted: I thought you didn't want to hear from me bc you'd removed me as a contact

[03/08/2016 20:23:22] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: I removed you as a contact because I was emotionally fired up after some irl junk and it wasn't right on my behalf

[03/08/2016 20:26:36] Ted: I still have no idea who hates me and who doesn't, and who never wants to hear from me again

[03/08/2016 20:26:55] Ted: I have no idea who I can trust, who I can even talk to

[03/08/2016 20:27:24] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Yakko will not want to hear from you again, possibly same with Clare and Barb

[03/08/2016 20:28:14 | Edited 20:28:26] Ted: Wait, yaakov and I went through some stuff lately, is this after that? And don't worry, I think Clare and I are cool again

[03/08/2016 20:29:23] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: I don't know abt anything you and yakko went through lately, I'm just speaking from after I removed you

[03/08/2016 20:29:35] Ted: Ah, ok

[03/08/2016 20:30:13] Ted: Well, yaakov and I basically apologised to each other after that last public misunderstanding

[03/08/2016 20:46:11] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Alright well, even so, just let them mellow out for a while

[03/08/2016 20:53:05] Ted: Have they said something? I don't really know what's going on right now

[03/08/2016 20:55:47] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: I asked them what was up and they said that they were still healing, give them some time

[03/08/2016 20:56:30] Ted: As in right now?

[03/08/2016 20:56:45] kong, from the series "King Of Apes", available only on Netflix™: Yes

[03/08/2016 20:57:04] Ted: Ok, cool. That's good to know

[03/08/2016 21:10:49] Ted: I get the impression asriel hates me, though I'm not quite sure why

[03/08/2016 21:17:32] Ted: (Also, I don't think it's fair that the group manipulated you like that)

[03/08/2016 21:21:50] Ted: (something smells really fishy about them trying to spare my feelings by pressuring you to remove me)

[04/08/2016 01:37:22] Ted: Hang on, I think barbie and I interacted in a friendly way even after the group chat stuff. Are you still in contact with him? Could you maybe ask if I can talk to him about this? I really don't want to cause anymore upset but I feel like talking it out is the only way I'll be able to put these feelings to rest

[04/08/2016 13:09:31] Ted: And like, I know it might seem like I'm upset, but I really am so grateful to know you don't hate me for everything that went down. It's taken a lot of worry off my mind to know that we're okay

[04/08/2016 13:15:49] Ted: With everything else that's going on right now, I needed that

[06/08/2016 14:04:04] Ted: Bean?

[11/08/2016 19:07:39] Ted: Are you ok?

[14/08/2016 18:14:43] Ted: Please respond

[17/08/2016 10:10:44] Ted: Bean please

---

[18/07/2016 23:09:40] Ted: hi

[18/07/2016 23:11:56] Ted: (ah, sorry, thought you were online)

do you know if Yaakov would still be up for talking things through with gabby?

[18/07/2016 23:46:57] Clare 🐻: I am sorry! Just now getting up lol

& yeah yakko would def still be down, do you know gabby's Skype name?

[18/07/2016 23:47:32] Ted: yeah, but they're not really keen on using skype

[18/07/2016 23:49:49] Ted: they're still very much on edge about the whole thing and would prefer a simpler platform

[18/07/2016 23:51:33] Clare 🐻: Oh okay! That's fair, what platform would work best?

[18/07/2016 23:55:25] Ted: i'm just discussing that with them right now

[19/07/2016 00:01:07] Clare 🐻: righteous, keep me posted c:

[19/07/2016 00:07:44] Ted: ok is Yaakov online right now?

[19/07/2016 00:09:01] Clare 🐻: yep!

[19/07/2016 00:10:07] Ted: cool, would you be up for a group chat type thing? basically so you and me can know what's happening and support yakko/gabby respectively

[19/07/2016 00:12:48] Ted: (if so, there's a link here: https://chatstep.com/#not_tinychat and the password is "bruh")

[19/07/2016 00:13:14] Clare 🐻: yeah i'm down, should I let yakko know?

[19/07/2016 00:13:21] Ted: yes, definitely

[19/07/2016 00:14:27] Ted: (ok seems you have to go in through the homepage since it's passworded)

[19/07/2016 00:19:12] Clare 🐻: yorick isn't really up for a group chat right off the bat, it'd be okay after but yakko doesn't want spectators

[19/07/2016 00:19:25] Ted: ok, i'll let gabby know

[19/07/2016 00:21:00] Ted: ah, Gabby's not really comfortable one-on-one

[19/07/2016 00:22:04] Ted: (I think Gabby's scared in case one or the other starts yelling and it breaks down)

[19/07/2016 00:24:26] Clare 🐻: hhm yeah that makes sense

[19/07/2016 00:24:28] Clare 🐻: well shit

[19/07/2016 00:24:29] Clare 🐻: now what

[19/07/2016 00:24:33] Ted: idk

[19/07/2016 00:32:59] Ted: gabby really doesn't feel safe talking to Yaakov one on one in case they (gabby), uh, I don't really want to repeat the wording but suffice to say they feel they can't trust themself to keep it civil if you and me aren't there

[19/07/2016 00:35:41] Clare 🐻: would it be easier if we like, passed along messages or something? yorick feels really strongly about not being spectated

[19/07/2016 00:37:18] Ted: so would that be like Yaakov says something to you, I relay it to gabby, gabby responds, I pass the response to you and you give it to Yaakov?

[19/07/2016 00:37:44] Clare 🐻: yeah I guess

[19/07/2016 00:37:53] Clare 🐻: i'd have to run it by yakko first though hang on

[19/07/2016 00:38:35] Ted: gabby says that would be ok

[19/07/2016 00:40:55] Clare 🐻: yakko's okay with it too

[19/07/2016 00:41:10] Clare 🐻: finger pistols

we're in business

[19/07/2016 00:41:13] Ted: cool!

[19/07/2016 00:48:04] Ted: alright, so ted keeps telling me to talk things out with you

[19/07/2016 00:57:25] Clare 🐻: im not ok with my words being passed through 4 different people and i don't see the point when i don't feel like i have anything to say to gabby and gabby doesn't want to because she's been told that she has to talk to me

[19/07/2016 00:57:40] Clare 🐻: okay we might not be in business

[19/07/2016 00:57:50] Ted: aw ok :(

[19/07/2016 00:58:48] Ted: if you wanna pass on that I wasn't telling gabby that they had to, just that it would probably help them if they did

[19/07/2016 00:59:53] Ted: this isn't going to be easy to deal with

[19/07/2016 01:00:02] Ted: oh man

[19/07/2016 01:01:00] Clare 🐻: yeah I don't know where to go from here

[19/07/2016 01:01:22] Ted: it took ages for them to work up even enough courage for this

[19/07/2016 01:01:38] Ted: if it goes wrong now... idk... this is really bad...

[19/07/2016 01:01:56] Clare 🐻: well it doesn't seem to be going wrong so much as not going anywhere

[19/07/2016 01:02:26] Clare 🐻: so gabby doesn't want to talk to yorick because they're worried they'll get mad? or upset?

[19/07/2016 01:02:36] Ted: yeah

[19/07/2016 01:03:08] Clare 🐻: hm

[19/07/2016 01:03:19] Ted: i run the risk of being a massive asshole and it becoming a huge fight

[19/07/2016 01:03:28] Ted: were their words

[19/07/2016 01:05:56] Ted: i haven't passed on yet that Yaakov doesn't want to talk

[19/07/2016 01:06:54] Clare 🐻: it's not that yakko doesn't want to talk, still definitely down to talk

[19/07/2016 01:07:15] Clare 🐻: I think it would just be preferable if things were a little more private

[19/07/2016 01:07:26] Ted: but they said they didn't have anything to say to gabby?

[19/07/2016 01:08:24] Clare 🐻: yeah yorick doesn't have anything to say but if gabby does then yorick's open to hearing it

[19/07/2016 01:08:29] Clare 🐻: answering questions, talking it out

[19/07/2016 01:08:32] Clare 🐻: that kinda stuff

[19/07/2016 01:08:49] Ted: ah, ok, i'll relay that then?

[19/07/2016 01:09:12] Ted: would Yaakov be ok if it was like an actual question or something?

[19/07/2016 01:09:42] Clare 🐻: how do you mean? o:

[19/07/2016 01:10:09 | Edited 01:10:09] Ted: like, if gabby gave a question to me to pass to you to forward to yaakov

[19/07/2016 01:13:44] Clare 🐻: i dunno i think it would depend on the question

[19/07/2016 01:13:51] Clare 🐻: do they have one in mind?

[19/07/2016 01:13:58] Ted: i don't think so

[19/07/2016 01:14:24] Ted: like, they're kind of in the same boat, where they need something to go off of

[19/07/2016 01:15:15] Clare 🐻: i feel you

[19/07/2016 01:15:43] Clare 🐻: i dunno i think it would be okay but i don't wanna like, assume

[19/07/2016 01:20:18] Ted: Gabby's not gonna budge any further, unfortunately

[19/07/2016 01:20:56] Clare 🐻: yeah neither is yorick \:

[19/07/2016 01:21:39] Clare 🐻: if gabby has a question or anything to say i can pass it along but idt yorickk's gonna wanna respond so publicly

[19/07/2016 01:22:04] Ted: oh dear, i really thought this was gonna work

[19/07/2016 01:22:23] Clare 🐻: me too

[19/07/2016 01:22:25] Clare 🐻: this sucks

[19/07/2016 01:22:32] Ted: since Yaakov trusts you, gabby trusts me, we trust each other

[19/07/2016 01:22:44] Ted: yeah, i have a really bad feeling about this

[19/07/2016 01:24:46] Ted: can you give me confirmation that Yaakov genuinely really does want to talk things through with gabby, just privately is all?

[19/07/2016 01:24:56] Ted: (and like, not just a grudging ok)

[19/07/2016 01:26:21] Clare 🐻: yeah when i told yakko there wasn't any like, hesitation or grumbling

[19/07/2016 01:26:30] Clare 🐻: just "sure what's her skype name"

[19/07/2016 01:27:09] Ted: and it isn't just a case of honouring a request?

[19/07/2016 01:30:08] Clare 🐻: what do you mean

[19/07/2016 01:31:37] Ted: like, is it "sure" as in "i was hoping we would get a chance" or "sure" as in "i have nothing against it"?

[19/07/2016 01:32:13] Ted: (Gabby's asking if it being just me would help but i can't see that it would)

[19/07/2016 01:32:54] Clare 🐻: probably the latter, but all things considered that's about the best we could hope for i think

[19/07/2016 01:33:15] Clare 🐻: just you like yorick talking to you?

[19/07/2016 01:34:04] Ted: i think it means just me as the only "spectator" or the sole mediator or whatever terminology you want to use

[19/07/2016 01:35:03] Ted: might be best just to drop the whole thing if it was a case of the latter

[19/07/2016 01:35:23] Ted: unless Yaakov really knows what they're getting into

[19/07/2016 01:37:06] Clare 🐻: yeah idt yorick would go for that

[19/07/2016 01:37:25] Clare 🐻: i know yakko is open to talking but if gabby doesn't have anything they want to say then

[19/07/2016 01:37:29] Clare 🐻: sshrug emoji

[19/07/2016 01:38:46] Ted: then the whole thing is off. i am absolutely not going to talk to them one-on-onewell that's that then :(

[19/07/2016 01:39:09] Clare 🐻: oof. alright

[19/07/2016 01:39:23] Ted:  they can tell you when they're ready to talk to me, with a mediator

[19/07/2016 01:40:06] Ted: so, yeah, that's their position on it. :\

[19/07/2016 01:40:10] Ted: sorry about all this

[19/07/2016 01:40:59] Ted: ("you" as in me)

[19/07/2016 01:41:22] Clare 🐻: yeah i got that

[19/07/2016 01:41:33] Clare 🐻: i'm sorry too, i was really hoping this would work out

[19/07/2016 01:42:10] Clare 🐻: yorick isn't going to approach gabby without anything to say, so idt this is ever going to go down

[19/07/2016 01:42:19] Ted: yeah :(

[19/07/2016 01:43:05] Ted: the trauma's still fresh in Gabby's mind and has been since the whole incident went down, thanks to the whole sticky thoughts thing

[19/07/2016 01:45:30] Clare 🐻: is that why you wanted them to talk to yakko? resolution or reconciliation or w/e?

[19/07/2016 01:45:37] Ted: yeah

[19/07/2016 01:46:51] Clare 🐻: damn

[19/07/2016 01:46:53] Clare 🐻: this sucks

[19/07/2016 01:47:09] Ted: it does

[19/07/2016 01:47:56] Ted: i'll keep trying to do the best i can, but there's only so much i can really reassure them about

[19/07/2016 01:49:01] Clare 🐻: yeah i feel you

[19/07/2016 01:49:12] Clare 🐻: make sure they know i'm always down to talk

[19/07/2016 01:49:23] Ted: ok, i'll pass that on

[19/07/2016 01:49:31] Ted: thanks

---

[21/07/2016 10:37:52] Ted: *Please don't feel

[21/07/2016 10:38:41] Ted: That was the word I was missing. I knew I was missing a word

[21/07/2016 18:23:59] 🔫: im getting kinda uncomfortable with this situation because i keep getting pressured to respond every few days because it keeps getting re-brought up when im trying to relax irl because of medical stuff and i don't really want to say anything right now

[21/07/2016 18:46:36] Ted: That's fine. I did say take your time. I didn't mean anything by this, it was just a puzzle that had been bothering me for a while.

[21/07/2016 19:42:59] Ted: Tbh my rl's a nightmare rn and I haven't even been on tumblr the past few days.

---

[30/08/2016 12:12:46] Ted: Did you stop talking to me because of something I said or is it because of something completely unrelated that you don't want to talk about? Please, I need to know if I said something that upset you.

[03/09/2016 02:53:30] the rumor come out: does bean is gay?: sorry, it wasn't because of anything you said. I've just been trying to hyper focus in on college, so I've pretty much muted everyone on here except for a few irl friends

[03/09/2016 02:53:43] the rumor come out: does bean is gay?: ive been bad at checking in when I get notifications, so that probably didn't help either

[03/09/2016 12:32:43] Ted: That makes sense. Thank you for getting back to me

---

[20/08/2016 19:02:01] 🍳 yolkie: yo

[20/08/2016 19:02:27] 🍳 yolkie: this is probably weird to message you right now

[20/08/2016 19:03:03] 🍳 yolkie: but something really wild is going on irl and it's making all my internet fights seem so. petty

[20/08/2016 19:03:18] 🍳 yolkie: so anyway i'm sorry and you're a cool person

[20/08/2016 19:04:05] 🍳 yolkie: i got kicked out of my home last night and in the morning i'm most likely going to fly 2500 miles across the country to live with clare's mom

[20/08/2016 19:05:09] 🍳 yolkie: and if i get abducted or something on the way and die i don't want any grudges or reasons for my soul to haunt anyone's neopets or whatever

[20/08/2016 19:26:32] Ted: Thank you for messaging me. I hope everything goes well for you on your journey and I hope you get there safely.

[20/08/2016 19:31:08] Ted: Things have only been getting worse and worse in my rl, so I know the feeling of wanting to get things wrapped up in case something happens.

[20/08/2016 19:31:26] Ted: I'm sorry you got kicked out.

[20/08/2016 22:03:02] Ted: Good luck

---

---

[07/12/2016 01:27:56] ᴸᵒᵒᵖˢ: hey

can you please not namedrop me on your blog

im going through a lot right now; therapy, new medication, endometriosis & infertility, clare dumping me, recent homelessness, and abuse from my family and the reason i left tumblr is because my family was stalking me. please i really don't need this and im asking you, as a favor, please don't talk about me

[07/12/2016 01:33:12] Ted: i've also been going through a lot right now, but hey, I censored the post so your family won't be able to stalk you through me (although I don't know how they would be able to but fair enough you know better about that than I do)

[07/12/2016 01:34:31] ᴸᵒᵒᵖˢ: thanks

[07/12/2016 01:35:30] Ted: i'm just sick of people treating me like a cinnamon roll when they don't know what i did

[07/12/2016 01:36:20] Ted: and other people not wanting to touch me bc of my "secret"

[07/12/2016 01:38:11] ᴸᵒᵒᵖˢ: i have way bigger problems now so dont even worry about it. its in the past and i have to focus on the things that are actively killing me right now and i don't like this kind of thing being dug up again when i'm in a different chapter of my life now

[07/12/2016 01:39:40] Ted: I can't move on from it when my friends are constantly reblogging from someone who asked me not to interact with them over what happened with you and who hasn't blocked me for some reason, and bc Gabby's still suffering and it's still my fault

[07/12/2016 01:49:24] ᴸᵒᵒᵖˢ: this is going to sound harsh but i promise i mean it in the best possible way.. feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to help gabby. idk the full extent of gabby's problems but it sounds like they're a lot bigger than you and me and are something she needs outside help with, but that's entirely up to her.

be there for her, be a rock for her to lean on instead of making her feel worse about how she is by saying it's all your fault. it's so fucking difficult to be strong for other people when your own life is in shambles, but relationships with other people are always difficult, that's just how it is and it sucks but it's not going to change. focus on helping gabby by building yourself up for her instead of tearing yourself down when she needs you to lean on

[07/12/2016 01:50:57] Ted: ok

[07/12/2016 01:51:49] Ted: btw, Gabby's a "they"

[07/12/2016 01:52:02] Ted: thanks though. I needed that.

[07/12/2016 01:54:46] ᴸᵒᵒᵖˢ: no prob. hope it works out

[07/12/2016 01:54:53] Ted: thank you

---

12/17/2016

oocneoblog: hi, i realise we haven't talked since the thing, and i'm sorry about that. anyway, i think gabby would really appreciate hearing from you. they've been feeling really down about themselves lately and i think unresolved feelings over people they used to talk to are part of it.

12/17/2016

clarenecessities: oh dang okay, what's the best way to get a hold of 'em?

12/17/2016

oocneoblog: probably skype. they don't have im open to people they're not following

thank you so much

12/18/2016

clarenecessities: yeah no worries dude, anything i can do i'm down for

i think they may have removed me on skype though, is there some other way to hit them up

oocneoblog: gabby says you're still a contact

clarenecessities: whhat's their skype name

oocneoblog: [removed]

clarenecessities: oh whoops i was looking in the wrong section

---

03/01/2017 [[To Barbie, who appears to have left for good by this point.]]

oocneoblog: Hi, I'm not sure how often you come on here anymore or if you'll even see this but I really need to talk to you about what happened in the neogames chat. I've been putting it off for a while because I didn't know if you'd even want to hear from me but... I always appreciated our friendship and it makes me so sad to think that I ever hurt you.