#thetis being supportive

[hyacinthusmemorial]

TW: Mentions of SA

In my works, and other places, people have been asking me my opinion on Achilles attacking Troilus. I would just preface I’m not an expert on the Trojan War. I was sick the week we did the Iliad in high school and they made me perform as Odysseus when we read the Odyssey and i had no clue what was happening, but I am in the process of reading it now.

I think if you are studying these events from the perspective of the god Apollo, then Achilles kind of loses his Brad Pitt appeal that the movie Troy (which I have never seen) gives him. So if Achilles is your guy, stop reading. I’m thought dumping.

There is something wicked and powerful about Achilles k*lling and r*ping Apollo’s own son on his own altar in his own temple. Because that is the implication of the iconography and artwork.

Achilles drags Troilus by his hair to the altar of his father and the story doesn’t say if Achilles r*pes him, but it is implied. For one it talks about Achilles being overcome with lust for Troilus, who is the image of Apollo in human form. A beautiful golden haired, youth.

Not only is Troilus the son of Hecuba, he’s Apollo’s image. Sources say he is the most beautiful of the Trojans and Greeks. But he has been designated a fate where he represents the city of Troy. Hence the name Troilus. If he reaches adulthood, the city survives. If he dies as a youth, the city will fall.

Athena leads Achilles to Troilus to ensure his death and thus Troy’s fall. She does not account for HOW Achilles kills Troilus.

He sees Troilus on his horse, and he is overcome with lust. I think he probably offers Troilus some sort of deal, come sleep with me and I will let you and your sister go, but Troilus refuses and runs away and hides in his father’s temple. He is a little kid running to his father for help. But, Achilles breaks in, finds Troilus, and enraged kills him either on or near the altar of Apollo.

Troilus is the image of Apollo. He is his son. He is a prince of Troy. I think this is a tipping point for everything—the point of no return.

This seals Troy’s fate, but I think the reason for that are because of Troilus’s death. I think before this point there is the possibility there will be peace. I think Big Bro Hector would have sent Helen back, I think peace would have been sued for and Troy would stand. But Fate has to be accomplished. This is the point where Troy no longer gives a damn—their prince has been m*rdered and r*ped on the altar of their chief god. Priam is upset because he loved Troilus as his own son, and he calls Achilles a child-slaughterer after that. Hecuba is besides herself, and Hector wants to kill Achilles. I think this is the point where they decide that, yes, they are going to die fighting this war, but they have a GOOD REASON to. It’s not about Paris and Helen and Aphrodite and a dumb apple. It’s about a boy being murdered.

But Apollo, Apollo is now vengeance. He is acting as an arm of fate. He’s already peeved at Achilles, who had killed another son Tenes. (A different story about Achilles r*ping someone)

I said this to one of my commenters—an altar is a god’s dinner table. Apollo’s hands are tied by something—either Fate or Thetis or his Father, and he cannot stop Achilles who is savagely attacking his own son on his own table. He has to watch, has to sit there and taste his own son’s blood in his mouth, watch him brutally die.

Achilles’s fate is sealed. Apollo is going to kill Achilles. It’s just nine years later.

In the art, Thetis, Athena, Apollo and Hermes are in the background of this event. Athena and Thetis as support of Achilles, but it makes me curious what Hermes is doing there. Is he holding Apollo back? Has Thetis begged Zeus for Achilles life? Athena regretfully watching as she accomplishes her plan only to realize WHY it worked?

I think in this way you can fashion the Trojan War as a direct conflict between Apollo and Achilles. Everything else is going on around it, but at the heart of it, is Apollo and Achilles. Apollo waiting for his father and the fates to give him the go ahead because Achilles will die, and Apollo is going to take away everything from him in the process. Briseis, Patroclus, and then he’s going to take his life.

Achilles is the villain in Apollo’s story. He’s invulnerable, he’s circumventing fate, he r*pes anything under his power, he disrespects the gods. He is a lesson in what men do when no one can stop them, and the most powerful thing is that the Father wins. He finds and kills his son’s murderer even after all the roadblocks in his way.

Troy is a revenge story, and if I ever get to writing it in my series, it’s going to be written like a revenge story.

[aj-thegreatest]

Why Persephone and Minthe are (or could've been) Perfect Foils:

I’m starting this off with 3 things: 1) This’ll be less of an essay and more of a ramble, so apologies if this is messy! 2) I’m framing this as a “what if this was written in a non misogynistic way,” and less(?) based on canon. And 3) If an essay like this already exists…oops!

Ok. So we can all generally agree that Persephone and Minthe, as love rivals, function as foils for each other. Persephone is the sweet, young, and naive girl who doesn’t know what sex is. Minthe is the mature, sexy, and stone cold older woman who’s too sexually active. 

They both villainize and hurt each other, ignoring the man who’s actually perpetuating their suffering. The story makes it seem like they’re completely opposed characters, with Persephone being the “better” one. And to an extent, that’s true. 

But I think we could dive deeper! And away from Hades! Because he sucks!

If we compare Persephone and Minthe’s lives and how they view each other, you could make a strong case for them being foils. It’d honestly be brilliant if they reconciled in a meaningful way, BUT-

Let’s start with the basics: while Persephone grew up with an attentive mother, Minthe grew up largely ignored by hers. Persephone grew up around a supportive community, with most of her needs met. And while we only see a peek into Minthe’s childhood, it can be inferred those needs were not easily met. Minthe had to provide for herself, shown by her jobs before Underworld Corp. 

Meanwhile, a lot of Persephone’s opportunities were “handed” to her. Artemis offers to let Persephone stay with her. She gets inducted into TGOEM without any trouble. Demeter most likely is paying for her schooling. She gets placed in Underworld Corp, despite having no experience (and out of her control. Hera what the hell). And gets paid for her internship, something she gets because of her relationship with Hades.

Minthe has continually worked for everything. Persephone hasn’t worked for any of the stuff she gets. But she wants to! Persephone so badly wants to be independent. She dreams of living on her own, dressing the way she wants, being in a relationship. And who is the first being she sees that represents all of it for her?

Minthe is the physical manifestation of everything Persephone wants to be. It’s also why she dresses like her in later seasons. And Minthe is clearly jealous of Persephone. Is it because she’s flirting with Hades? To some extent, yes. But Minthe also feels Persephone is better than her. She’s the sweet goddess who everyone loves, especially Hades’ trusted allies (Hera, Hecate, etc). 

I think if they got to know each other, they’d be envious of what the other had. Minthe would love to have a mother like Demeter: someone who took care of her and gave her what she needed. She needs a support system and people to rely on. Not a toxic friend who prays on her downfall (Thetis what the hell). 

Persephone wants a mother who won’t hover over her. Control of her life, freedom, and the ability to be her true self. Wear whatever she wants. She doesn’t want to be the kind, sweet girl all the time. She wants to have sex! After marriage apparently because uh…yeah. 

A brief deviation: Even their aesthetics are contrasts. Persephone wears white and pink, while Minthe wears reds and blacks. Minthe’s clothes are revealing and conventionally sexy. Persephone’s are cute and conventionally girly. 

Both Minthe and Persephone are stuck in roles that feel inescapable. Which are enforced by Hades, the narrative, and the fandom (at the time). Something something Madonna Whore Complex.

In an ideal story, where they equally like all the women, Minthe and Persephone would’ve reconciled. Come to some understanding of the other and grow as a result. But…that doesn’t happen. 

Really, they just switch places. Minthe becomes accepted in the Mortal Realm. She gets all the support Persephone had. While Persephone gets all the glitz and glam Minthe supposedly had. It all works out! 

…I mean, not really but-

Like Minthe barely gets mentioned at the very end. Persephone spends most of it stressed, hated by her citizens. All the things Minthe feared at the start!

But then she gets her happy ending. Isn’t this great? The character who wanted independence from her mother and everyone, ends up stuck in a marriage without truly finding herself. And with kids we, the audience, don’t know if she wanted? 

All that matters is Hades wants kids. So Persephone needs to have them. Hades wants to break up with Minthe, so she gets planted and moves from his realm. Funny how everything works out for him, right? 

This doesn’t really have an ending. All I can say is, I wish Minthe and Persephone had a chance to stand on their own. And to talk to each other without a man getting in the way…

…which is why you should read my fanfic, PomengranMints-

[theoihalioistuff]

"He refers to the sea monster as Triton's dog. [...] When the gods wanted to bind Zeus, he (knowing this from Thetis) honored the other gods, but sent Poseidon and Apollo to serve Laomedon. Laomedon honored Apollo with sacrifices, supposedly as a reward for his service, but he did not honor Poseidon, who had served him and fortified Ilium.

When Poseidon did not receive his due after the appointed time of service, he, being angry with Laomedon, sent a most terrible sea monster which flooded the land by spitting out the sea. Compelled by an oracle, Laomedon dressed his daughter Hesione in royal attire and exposed her to the monster. Herakles, passing by and having been promised immortal horses from Laomedon (which were given to him as a ransom by Zeus for having abducted his brother Ganymede), built a high wall and stood armed by the mouth of the monster. When the monster opened its mouth, he jumped into it all at once. After cutting it up from the inside for three days, he came out, having lost all his hair." ~ Tzetzes ad Lycophron. 34

Interesting to find a version of Apollo and Poseidon's servitude that accounts for Apollo's support of Troy and Poseidon's (usual) opposition. Also the detail of the sea monster being Triton's dog is adorable (and sad) and Herakles coming out hairless is hilarious.

[chocolatetaleprince]

Here's a terrible fic idea, a bit inspired by anotheroceanid's fic When the Horizon Blooms (an awesome fic btw). Post Trials of Apollo and Chalice of the Gods, Apollo and fem Percy become friends and they're trying to figure out how to get the gods to better/specifically overthrow Zeus. They realize that they can't replace Zeus with a titan or something because they've already fought two wars over that, and they don't think they could replace him with Apollo because he wouldn't get enough support (literally was just made mortal). They're running out of options.

Then Apollo (or maybe Rachel being the oracle) gets a prophecy sort of like Danae's or Thetis'. The gist of it is that if Apollo and fem Percy have a child, that child will grow up to overthrow the gods. After some suitable angst over having a demigod child at the center of a huge prophecy, they decide to make it happen. They have a son with black hair and golden eyes, like Kronos. Fem Percy decides to name him Perseus due to 1. OG Perseus had a happy ending 2. the meaning of the name 3. OG Perseus was part of a prophecy about how he would kill his grandfather.

I'm not sure what would happen next but other ideas could be: Apollo/fem Percy fall in love during the course of co-conspiring and raising their child. Possibly a dark tone, after all this kid would essentially be Mordred.

Edit: another idea-fem percy is 19 when she decides to have the prophecy baby to parallel Luke kicking off the Titan war when he was 19

[genericpuff]

This has been buggibg me for a while. What is the reason why Rachel dehumanizing nymphs?

Cause from what I'm seeing the nymphs getting the most screen time is Daphne, Minthe, Thetis, Psyche and a little bit of Leuce and Echo.

4 out of the 6 nymphs we see are very open in their sex appeal and flirty. Yet for some reason they get discriminated when Hera, Persophone, and Aphrodite do the same thing but get a pass because the are white coded rich people.

For my knowledge (but I could be wrong if so please correct me) nymphs are known to be seductive and sexy but they were well respected just like any other God. They were given given sacrifices to please them.

Is this just another case of Rachel being the so-called "folkorists" who has done the first Google link she see or could there just be how she interprets then but like the rest of her story misses the mark?

So there are a couple different and equally interesting theories on this.

Rachel has established it as canon that the nymphs are lower class. And there are a lot of stereotypes and prejudices against lower class women going into sex work, which we see in LO through characters like Minthe who work as car girls (notice how in the present story Thetis and Minthe are both personal assistants which is also a role that's commonly stereotyped as "the boss' sidepiece" as it's a role often occupied by women in service to men). Even Leuce isn't safe from this:

Normally I'd just say "good for her" but it's clear with how much Leuce has been turned into the delusional girl who "manifests" her fantasies that Rachel is once again conflating sexuality with more negatively-associated character traits for any woman who isn't Persephone (because when it's Persephone it's sexual liberation always, she's not a "sugar baby", she's a "workaholic" who "earned her position and wealth", but when it's Leuce or Minthe or Thetis they're "homewreckers") And yeah, this is a common disconnect that happens between lower class and upper class people, where lower class people (especially women) are often judged and outcast for doing certain things or behaving a certain way which rich upper class people take and adopt and turn into something "trendy" and "empowering".

But there's... another theory that may explain why so many nymphs in the story are being pigeonholed into the "homewrecking sugar babies" stereotype. And you're gonna hate me for this, because I'm sure the gut reaction to reading this from many is gonna be "goddamit not Lolita again!" buuuttt yeah we're gonna talk about Lolita again.

CONTENT WARNING: We're talking about Lolita again, which means discussion surrounding the sexualization of minors is ahead.

There's a certain term the main character of the book Humbert Humbert uses to describe girls who are specifically, and I quote:

"Between the age limits of nine and fourteen there occur maidens who, to certain bewitched travellers, twice or many times older than they, reveal their true nature which is not human, but nymphic (that is, demoniac); and these chosen creatures I propose to designate as 'nymphets'." - Lolita, Chapter 5, Page 18, paragraph 5

It's also very clear from the way Nabokov specifies the definition of nymphet from Humbert Humbert's perspective that the use of the word 'nymphet' is intentionally referencing the root word of Greek origin:

"...I would have the reader see 'nine' and 'fourteen' as the boundaries - the mirrory beaches and rosy rocks - of an enchanted island haunted by those nymphets of mine and surrounded by a vast, misty sea. Between those age limits, are all girl-children nymphets? Of course not. Otherwise we who are in the know, we lone voyagers, we nympholepts, would have long gone insane."

Though Humbert Humbert is obviously not being literal here, the visual metaphor is strongly relying on the etymology of the word 'nymph', but twisting the depiction of nymphs in such a way to support his own fantasies.

And while I'm definitely not trying to accuse Rachel of having the same mindset of Humbert Humbert (seriously, I want to make it clear that I don't think Rachel is a pedophile, just horribly misled at best), it's interesting to me how this specific definition of a nymphet matches with that of Rachel's old descriptions of her own art:

"You have to be an artist and a madman, a creature of infinite melancholy, with a bubble of hot poison in your loins and a super-voluptuous flame permanently aglow in your subtle spine (oh, how you have to cringe and hide!), in order to discern at once, by ineffable signs - the slightly feline outline of a cheekbone, the slenderness of a downy limb, and other indices which despair and shame and tears of tenderness forbid me to tabulate - the little deadly demon among the wholesome children; she stands unrecognized by them and unconscious herself of her fantastic power."

What's interesting is that I did dig up an old profile of Rachel's that actually acknowledged that what she's doing with her art shouldn't be conflated with, well... child porn.

"It's not THAT kind of lolita" and yet the writing feels like it's been smeared all over the wall with shit. There are so many scenes and artistic choices throughout LO that scream "it is that kind of lolita".

Though it is still a theory, and I don't resort to using Rachel's old art of "proof" of LO's shortcomings, I don't think it should necessarily be ignored that the nymphs in LO seem to be characterized very similarly to Humbert Humbert's description of 'nymphets' - devious and promiscuous, and thus easier to blame when predatory men pursue them, rather than holding those predatory men accountable. And we see this in Persephone too, but unlike the nymphs, Persephone is rich, upper class, and of a "superior pedigree". So she becomes the desirable form of a 'nymphet' that's praised and celebrated by the narrative and characters like Hades, rather than the literal nymphs who are shamed and outcast for simply having sexual independence.

Whatever theory you roll with is on you, you can dismiss all this as just overthinking nonsense, but I do think it makes for interesting food for thought because at this point, LO is undeniably - intentionally or subconsciously - influenced by Rachel's relationship with Lolita, and whether or not that influence is aware at all of Lolita being originally written to be a precautionary tale, that remains to be seen.

[ungodlysai]

Thetis: Why do people think I have distaste for you, Patroclus?

Patroclus: Because it was easiest to paint you that way. You’re a Nymph who was bound to mate with a mortal man. It was easy for them to spin that into hatred for me, hatred for humans.

Thetis: They have me mistaken. I love most humans. Some of you do some… questionable things, but then again, so do the gods.

Achilles: Everyone’s kind of messed up in their own way, aren’t we?

Patroclus: it’s what makes us unique. Even so, I thank you Thetis, for being supportive of your son and I.

Thetis: You mellow him out. You help him. How could I not support you?

*we love supportive mom Thetis here.*

[dootznbootz]

What do you think of Neoptolemus? :0

There's so much to think about this lil guy. While he's like, ofc, not my "main blorbo" (that belongs to Penelope <3 ) he's still such a fascinating fella.

Like, okay, like from the beginning, I personally like the idea that Deidamia and Achilles were dating and/or at least friends. And I like the idea of Thetis being a very spoiling grandma. :3 So many presents. Also he prefers salt water like his dad though he's not as upset about freshwater touching his skin as Achilles is.

For his age, it's always been like... WILD. because oh my gosh the timeline. Where is it? Why is it? HOW is it? I don't really plan to write and/or think about his age too much because that would throw so much into funk... :')

Either way, idk, I think he's complex like his dad. He's almost a mix of "powerful warrior" but still so young. I weirdly think it'd be neat that if he's a bit like Diomedes in a way, in how he had to start fighting so young, his dad is well known (both for very different reasons) but unlike Diomedes, who had Sthenelus, Thersander, Promachus, etc. during the Epigoni. Neo has no one really who is close in age to him to support him in the same way during the Trojan War. If you know what I mean? He also doesn't have Athena constantly often beside him. (idk maybe a weird old brother thing for Diomedes and Neo)

I also don't...really think I want to necessarily go with the "hyperviolent" boy? possibly angry and scared but not like "bloodlust" and just murderous. Especially when idk, Neoptolemus was raised more...MORTAL than his father was xD As Achilles also got Centaur treatment while still being a demigod xD

While I do plan for the "Neo is the one who kills Astayanax" instead of Odysseus (I think it makes...the most narrative sense with how Achilles killed Hector, and he kills Astayanax. It's a "Father kills this other father, his son kills the same father's son" sorta of thing.) but the drop from the wall. Not the fucked up one where he kills Priam with him 😭

I...don't ship Neo with Hermione though. :/ idk I think she'd hate him tbh lol. Also the whole

Neo: "Hey, uh, Menelaus promised me that I got to marry Hermione." Tyndarius: "Uh...Do you have proof?" Neo: "Are you going to disrespect Menelaus?!"

Thing that happens?? idk I know it's canon at least but I don't like it for long you know?

Idk :3 He's a funky lil guy for sure. <3

[littlesparklight]

Some general thoughts on the gods on Troy's side, and why they might be:

Aphrodite: Presumably out of affection for her son, Anchises, and Paris. Very potentially, wanting to assure the gift she's given Paris lasts as long as possible? But if this is a factor, hardly something she is beholden to in any way; it'd probably be more about her own pride in that case. But, given that she also helps protect Hektor's corpse, when he, at least, is no longer able to pay her back for such aid, her affection/aid to the Trojans aren't just for or because of those three.

Apollo: Thetis' warning/prophecy to her son that killing Tennes/a son of Apollo would mean Apollo would kill him (Plutarch, Quaest. Graec. 28, Bibliotethe, Epitome 3.26), then we have Achilles killing Troilus in his sancuary, which would be reason enough on its own but Troilus can also be Apollo's son. There's Apollo so ardently protecting Hektor throughout the war, even/maybe especially after his death (Hektor is also in several sources Apollo's son). Also his relationship with Hecuba and how in Stesichorus he rescues her. (Could also put Kassandra and Helenos here.)

Part of his defense of Troy might be about "fate" and when it's the "proper time" for Troy to fall, but Apollo's ties to Troy/individuals attached to Troy are more deep-set than that. He is the one to punish Neoptolemos' sacrilege of killing Priam at Zeus' altar. Apollo is also rarely present during vase art scenes around the Judgment, potentially connecting to; Apollo specifically being the one to aid Paris (or in some variants, using Paris' shape) to kill Achilles. Real-world wise, the possibility of connecting Apaliuna(s)/Appaluwa as Wilusa/Troy's patron god to Apollo.

Ares: Unstable ally. Hard to say how consistently he is on either side; Athena says he "only yesterday" on the first day of fighting in the Iliad was loudly pledging to Hera and Athena that he'd help the Achaeans.

Perhaps he's been aiding the Trojans more or less secretly/openly throughout the war, as much because he supports whatever side he wishes on a whim as that Aphrodite (and Apollo?) has asked him to. Either way, certainly not as consistent nor out of any particular affection or feeling of protectiveness for the Trojans.

Artemis: "For, in her pity, holy Artemis is angry at the winged hounds of her father, for they sacrifice a wretched timorous thing, together with her young, before she has brought them forth. An abomination to her is the eagles' feast." (Agamemnon, Aeschylus, line 135) ; this is about the eagles and hare omen, which replaces (or in addition to, as this seems to have happened in Mycenae) the snake and sparrows one. Artemis is put forth as unhappy with Troy's (future) fall/the war.

And, it's of course very easy to see the demand for Iphigenia in reparation for Agamemnon's hubris in a similar way, that if he/the army, wants to go off and kill/enslave innocents elsewhere, he/they has to start at home. She may also be helping her brother, and there is the Skamandrios, son of Strophios, who she herself taught to hunt in the Iliad. She has independent connections to Troy, and could be one of the more focused on Trojan deities along with her brother and their mother.

Leto: We have nothing, aside from the fact that she is on the Trojan side with her children in Book 21. But real-world-wise, there's also that Leto was an important goddess on the coast, and in Lycia connected to a Lycian mother goddess. So one could probably make inference for the in-universe reason being as much her siding with her children as that Troy is honouring her (maybe particularly so), along with the rest of the countries on the coast.

Xanthos: intimately woven together with Troy's royal family, as he's married a couple daughters into the line and his (only?) son's daughter married Dardanos.

Zeus: He's technically/actually neutral, a driving force to keep the war going as it "needs to". He's therefore on Troy's side more through the sentiment(s) he expresses or is assigned to him rather than in action.

Particularly so if one turns to the "he planned the war" variants - but these are never about Troy, or Paris, but rather about something much larger than any fault any individual Trojan or Troy has a whole as made themselves guilty of. [Though individual mortals in the Iliad, and in later sources, both tragedies and lyric, will imply that it's Zeus as god of xenia that ensures his working towards Troy's destruction, rather than any plan that has little to do with Troy.]

For his connections to and being for Troy, have Proclus' summary of the Kypria for example, where the plan mentioned at the end is to "relieve the Trojans" specifically, and that phrasing turns Achilles' anger and Zeus acting to fulfil his demands not about Achilles' honour, but about aiding Troy. In Pindar's Paean 6 (fragmentary), Zeus is said to "not dare to change fate [the destruction of Troy]", easily to implicate that he otherwise might, because he would wish to. More important, perhaps, is his statement that Troy is his most favoured city, and how Hera offers up three of her favoured cities for Zeus' one, how he wishes to save Hektor, and the description in the Iliad (by Poseidon) that Dardanos was the/one of the sons [by mortal women, though Elektra couldn't have been that] that he loves the most.

[scarlet-sam-chaos]

Thetis: Help me, the Greeks are being mean to my son, aid the trojans as revenge, will you? Zeus: ... Zeus: ... Hera supports the Greeks Zeus: ... i do not wish to quarrel with my wife :( Thetis: ... Thetis: remember that time Hera, Poseidon and Athena attempted to overthrow you and I helped you out? Zeus: ...alright, I'll think about it Thetis: :) Zeus: now go before Hera sees you here pls

[percabeth4life]

You're fine you're fine lol, lots use demititan with the non-camp titans I've noticed, just thought I'd mention it.

But yeah! Them being the "Titan Kids" could easily be a bonding point for them. You could have Nico bring Hazel back because maybe she got more of the necromancy stuff from Trivia and she was already sorta coming back anyways? Or smth along those lines.

There's so much potential to play with, and you get to explore how God's react when they don't have parents who outrank the Gods that might throw their weight around.

PJO: we need to recognize the value of the minor gods. The Olympians are important, sure, but the minor gods do a lot of work in maintaining and assisting the pantheon, have their own kids and deserve to be seen and valued just as much

HoO: Back at it again with Olympian-only nonsense!

[babyrdie]

Deidamia has so much angst potential

Yes, she does!

Deidamia was just a girl who was most likely sheltered, considering her father only had daughters. Her mother is never present in the myths, I wouldn't be surprised if her mother was either dead or not a present figure. She probably spent her days without many worries, having a princess education and then spending the day having fun with her sisters (as, for example, Philostratus describes). And then she had feelings for this new girl Phyrra, and she probably felt horrible about it because it was definitely not well regarded (something similar to the poem attributed to Bion of Smyrna). But the girl wasn't even a girl, and so Deidamia was in love with someone she didn't really know as much as she thought she did. And they were two very young people without proper supervision and now she's pregnant (Deidamia even took a while to realize this in Euripides' version), but she's just a girl and this child isn't even a child of the marriage. And now she's being forced to grow up fast, because she has to be the mother of this unplanned child. And not only that, but the father is leaving because glory is more important to him than her or their child. Achilles will become a man through the glory of war, she will become a woman through motherhood. And they're trapped in these gender roles and they will never see each other again because his destiny is to die in Troy.

She raises this child as a single mother, although at least she has support (father, sisters, maybe Thetis). We never really get her point of view…how is she viewed because of this? In some versions, Achilles marries her, but in others he doesn't. How is she viewed because she's a princess who got pregnant before marriage by a boy who didn't even marry her and who will never come back? At first, did people even believe the story that the father was the famous prophesied son of a goddess? Phyrrus is so sweet, playing with the shepherds' children, having fun with his innocent toys and he will never be like his father, a boy who gave up the opportunity of a home for the opportunity of war (inspired by Philostratus and Quintus of Smyrna). But then the news that Achilles has died comes and Deidamia is mourning, but she is mourning a person she hasn't seen in years. A person she last saw as a boy, who now that he is dead is a man. Maybe her memories of him don't even match up with what he is like now, but she will never get to know that. She doesn't even have much time to mourn, because soon the same men who took Achilles are demanding her son. They took the man who was supposed to be her husband, and now they're taking her son. And no matter how much she or Lycomedes try to stop them, Phyrrus is too seduced by following the ghost of a father he never knew and who his mother probably doesn't even know anymore. And then her son goes away, and perhaps like his father he will not return. Like his father he will die young in a foreign land because the seductive glow of glory has taken over his senses.

But he doesn't die in a foreign land like his father, he is alive. But he isn't Phyrrus, he is Neoptolemus. He is no longer the child who played with toys and shepherds' children, he is the person who chased the elderly king of Troy into a temple of Zeus and killed him without mercy or respect for the gods. He is alive, yes, but Deidamia doesn't really have her son back. And so either we don't know Deidamia's fate or, as in Pseudo-Apollodorus' version, she is married to Helenus. She is then married to this man whose home was destroyed by both Achilles and Neoptolemus. And maybe she loves Helenus, but she also loves Achilles and Neoptolemus. And how can she deal with that? How can she love Achilles and still mourn him, if the person who was in Skyros no longer has the personality of the person who died in Troy? How can she be happy that her little boy has returned, if he is not even her little boy anymore? At least, not in personality. And how can she rejoice that Neoptolemus is alive, if for that Helenus had to lose his home and the people he loved?

And then Neoptolemus is dead, and she is sad. At the same time, she cannot want Helenus to share this grief. He has a right not to feel this way. And Andromache arrives in Epirus and Deidamia has to face directly the consequences of what Neoptolemus did, while thinking about how Achilles must have done similar things. And Andromache and Helenus have a connection that Deidamia will never understand, she can never truly know what it's like to be in their situation. She can only learn to face the fact that you loving someone doesn't make them inherently good to others. Helenus is taken by the presence of Apollo when he prophesies and she just has to learn to deal with the presence of this god, the same god who killed her son and her son's father. But, having lived with Helenus and Andromache, can she really find their deaths entirely unjust? She's still sad, of course, but can she really throw her hands up to the heavens and scream that it's injustice?

In a way, I think Deidamia is a good representation of what it was like to be a woman, although it is more specifically the reality of a princess. She has to deal with being an innocent girl, she has to deal with thinking about the possibility of liking another girl, she has to deal with the idea of ​​sneaking around with a boy, she has to deal with an unplanned pregnancy, she has to deal with being abandoned by the man who was supposed to be her husband, she has to raise her son without a husband while constantly thinking that her son's father is going to die, she has to find out that her son's father really is dead, she has to watch her son go to the same fate, she has to deal with the anxiety that he doesn't come back, she has to deal with the relief of seeing her son again and the loss of him not being the same anymore, she has to deal with the consequences of the actions of the men she loves on the lives of other people she has grown to love. And most of this happens while she is on the island, looking at the sea and thinking that this is the same sea that Achilles and Neoptolemus set out on for a distant land. At least, that's how I interpret her situation.

She has SO much potential, but people ignore her potential. Most of the time, Deidamia is just used to say something about Achilles and Patroclus' relationship. It's really sad.

[asteroidfieldgame]

One thing I find a little frustrating is how many modern greek mythology stories focus on the Giants, or Titans, or maybe Typhon or someone else coming back and opposing the gods again. They both shouldn't pose a real threat for Olympus, and there isn't really precedent in the mythology for such threats coming back.

Greek mythology is about a cycle of succession - Ouranos gains control of the heavens, his son Kronos succeeds him, and his son Zeus succeeds him. Kronos fails to prevent Zeus and his siblings from overthrowing him, while Zeus succeeds in defeating potential successors (the Giants and Typhon), preventing them from being born (sons of Metis and Thetis), or just generally by having his sons support his reign rather than attempt to overthrow him (Apollo, Ares, etc.)

The monsters are also just going to be much less threatening a second time - the Titans were defeated when there were way fewer gods and the Titans ruled the heavens, seas, and other domains, Typhon was almost victorious until Athena was born, etc.

If you want a Greek mythology story to have an overarching threat to the gods, there are much more interesting, threatening, and mythologically reasonable options - maybe the gods are taking sides Trojan war style, maybe one of Zeus's sons is leads a bunch of Zeus's kids against him, or maybe Metis finally has that prophesied kid.

[darlingsart]

I LOVE Pyrrha! I just adore your drawings. Do you have any Pyrrha hcs?

Thank you!! ❤️❤️

Here’s a few modern day hcs I have for her: (There’s A LOT so I’m putting it under the cut)

- I like to think that Pyrrha started exploring gender expression quite young, wearing skirts and dresses when she was like 6 or 7, realizing that she’s comfortable in both ‘girly’ clothes and ‘boy’ clothes, painting her nails, etc. and I like to think that Thetis and Peleus were very supportive parents, always asking her what she wants to wear for the day, protecting her from bigots whenever they go out, asking her what she wants to be called when, etc.

- She picked out her name from a magazine when she was like 9, I have the cute image in my head of her flipping through one of Thetis’ magazines and seeing an ad for let’s say a jewelry company called Pyrrha and she’s like !!! just completely falls in love with the name and adopts it for herself. Thetis and Peleus are very supportive when she tells them of it and hype her up about it ofc, saying it’s very pretty and fits her well etc.

- In modern days, I see her and Pat being friends at a young age too, but I think it takes her a while to actually tell him about her gender identity and it’s hard to hide it. It’s just something very personal and I think she’s just nervous of what he might think. Anyways, she probably tells him she’s genderfluid when she’s around 13 and he’s 14, explaining what it all means and how she feels, her pronouns and her name and ofc it’s scary but Pat thinks it’s pretty neat and accepts her without a doubt, it doesn’t change anything between them if anything it makes them grow closer.

- I think really after high school, she starts experimenting with her style and what kind of makeup she likes

- On that note, I think her style evolves over time and by the time they’re like in their late twenties, Pyrrha wears nothing but classy, luxury brands. I hc that she’s got an easy office job at her dad’s company so trust me she rocks the HELL out of a pencil skirt and $1200 blouse like it’s no one’s business.

- Her favorite colors to wear are earth tones, particularly dark greens.

- She loves to do her make up, I can totally see her at her vanity with a lighted scented candle and a chill playlist just taking her time with her make up, it’s like a relaxing thing for her. But she hates cleaning her makeup brushes so Patroclus sometimes does it for her bc he’s a sweetheart

- Loves loves loves it when Patroclus refers to her as “my wife” in front of other people.

- She loves jewelry, particularly necklaces and has a huge expensive jewelry box (like the ones that have multiple pull out compartments) to keep everything in. Bonus, she always asks Pat to help her with her necklace even though she could easily clip the clasp herself. She just finds something about it really romantic

- I also think it’d be funny if she had a huge collection of sunglasses, like just pairs and pairs of really pretty sunglasses, dark ones, rose gold ones, ones with patterns on the frame, circle ones, etc. She needs a pair for every day of the summer even though she only wears them on top of her head (she argued with Patroclus that it ‘completes the outfit’.

- Would it surprise you if I said she also has a huge shoe collection (Patroclus loves it)

- Spends more on lingerie than she probably should but Patroclus never complains about their credit card bill bc how can he when their money’s being spent on something so important lmao

- She’s a pumpkin spice girlie and is always trying to get her husband to like it too

- She doesn’t know how to drive, she’s a passenger princess (but that’s fine bc she loves it when Patroclus puts his hand on her thigh while he’s driving)

- She likes to wear her hair up most of the time and has tons of pretty scrunchies that always have to match with whatever she’s wearing.

BONUS:

For the au where she has Pyrrhus I have a few hcs too:

- Okay Pyrrhus is the result of a one night stand, so I like to think that while in Achilles’ apartment at the time, Deidameia saw Pyrrha’s name probably written on a paper put down somewhere and thought it was a nice name so when she had their kid, she changed it around to Pyrrhus for a boy. (Pyrrha actually loves that Deidameia named him that even if it was unknowingly)

- She is very honest and open with Pyrrhus about her gender identity as well and he doesn’t think much of it just like, “oh, okay.” Like it’s not a big deal, you know how kids are lmao

- Three words; soccer mom Pyrrha. The type of mom who out cheers all the other moms in the bleachers, brings in the best healthy snacks (take THAT Susan). + She looks good in her soccer mom outfits

- Pyrrhus insists on getting her a Mother’s Day gift too and she finds it to be the sweetest thing in the world

- The first time Pyrrhus called her mama she nearly cried lol

[patrochillesvibes]

Patroclus: The Unreliable Narrator

TSoA plays a very clever narrative trick on readers. The story is actually Patroclus' account of his life with Achilles as told to Thetis. Well after the war and the many characters have died, Thetis seeks Achilles' grave for comfort. There, a shade denied access to the underworld, Patroclus shares his story with her. Why? To prove to Thetis how great the mortal part of her son, which she despised, was. To show her how wrong she was.

This is his account of his life with his beloved. Patroclus has an agenda, so he will only speak to the parts of his life that support it. For those parts that conflict, he will either skim over or re-frame.

Patroclus describes himself as being unskilled an solider. This is neither a lie nor a new interpretation by Miller. This is Patroclus' low confidence. His opinion of his own skill is skewed. He has only Achilles to compare and Achilles is a demi-god. He is not less-skilled than he is as presented in the Iliad.

Both Patroclus and Achilles did not agree with the war. You see this in Achilles' rant in the Iliad over the war's waste . So when Patroclus depicts the war, he removes himself from the violence. Instead, he focuses on how he helped, the good he did as a medic.

The same goes for the women. The women were not slaves, in Patroclus whitewashed version. They were captives, and as the captors he and Achilles tried to be kind.

And again with Thetis. She is demonized, but not in the way that you think. In TSoA, Achilles calls Patroclus his "husband." They cannot legally married, but they are more-or-less spouses. This makes Thetis the Mother-in-Law. Mothers of sons hardly ever like the one who takes their baby away. This is the relationship Patroclus has with Thetis. To her, Patroclus is a threat because he will consume Achilles' attention.

[winns-stuff]

LO RANT:

This is actually going to be small but it’s sick how everyone’s fine with Lore Olympus desecrating the names of the greek gods and shitting all over their myths. Like I genuinely feel like Rachel should be held more accountable because at the end of the day she’s making money off of this disrespectful ass comic, it’s not like she’s not she’s making millions and getting awards for this dog shit “retelling” and letting her fans genuinely believe that the stuff she puts in the comic is how it is in real life. I’m sure dozens of people genuinely think Minthe, Leuce, and Thetis are toxic and bitchy in the original myths since Rachel calls this her interpretation. If you don’t believe me I’ll put a screenshot of exactly the misinformation a lot of fans are spreading just to defend this horrible comic.

Interpretation can only go so far with stuff like this and I’m tired of everyone giving it a pass because of that excuse. If I show you a picture of a dog holding a bowl while looking sad maybe some will think he’s just hungry, others will think he’s been abandoned, and maybe even kidnapped by other people. It’s all up to their interpretation yes but at the same time it wouldn’t make a lick of sense for me to show you that picture and for you to say something non-relating like “the cat was in the meadow” or “the dog never had the bowl and actually the house that he’s in was a swimming pool the entire time.” There’s a difference between something being up to your genuine interpretation and you just making shit up and lying your ass off and Rachel has not been the doing the first.

How in the world did you get Leuce is a homewrecker from her being Hades’ first love and him turning her into a poplar tree after she tragically died in his realm due to the conditions of the Underworld? Is everyone genuinely believing that Rachel read the myths and got that from everything? And with Ares’ characterization in the myths compared to his characterization in Lore Olympus? She really got all of that from the myths. Be so fucking for real right now, she’s literally making all of this shit up and I’m so sick and tired of you fake greek mythology experts trying your hardest to defend this shit.

Listen, I am in no means fully informed or even educated about the myths as well but I’ve been learning a lot from those who are and the way that she made the gods is completely deplorable. It’s amazing how so many people are letting her slide with this and genuinely support her claims is insane and crazy.

Also, this may have been a real hot take and if it is I’m sorry but it’s been on my mind for a very long time and it’s just been getting me angry ever since.

[genericpuff]

Do you know "Eggnoid"? It's a rather old webtoon about a girl being put into circumstances on taking care of a robot guy who hatched from an egg (hence the title) the robot guy appears to be a grown man, but he has mental capabilities of a toddler and even acts like one. So, it's like those types of "born sexy yesterday" tropes but the gender reversed. The girl also repeatedly shown crushing over the robot guy and at some point, she called him her boyfriend despite she's supposed to be his caretaker.

I haven't read it, but I can definitely attest that there's a double standard when it comes to gender roles and age gaps / situations of grooming / etc. in literature but especially in webtoons. And by that I mean I've legit seen people hold comics like Lore Olympus accountable for their gross dynamics between a young teenage girl and the much older and richer love interest, but then turn around and say it's "couple goals" for a teenage boy to hook up with a much older woman. At the end of the day there's still a power imbalance due to the age gap and the massive differences in life experiences between the two, gender doesn't really change that.

Big ole' sip of hot tea as a take, but speaking as an AFAB, a lot of women are just as capable of grooming and taking advantage of younger men in the same way as men towards young women, it's just that on the surface people tend to get skittish about addressing that because they don't want to sound like they're going "yeah well actually women though-" and dismissing the notion of toxic masculinity. Which yes, that's a fair thing to worry about, some people do use that as a way to dismiss the arguments made regarding patterns of grooming behavior in men towards young girls (among many other problems in which men and toxic masculinity are held accountable), but like any topic of this nature, it's not always a cut and dry black and white thing. Toxic masculinity and the grooming of teenage girls by adult men is a very real problem! But just like how we can understand the nuance that being a man by default doesn't immediately make you a predator, we should be able to understand the nuance that being a woman doesn't give you a free pass to do the same things we call out men for doing without consequences. It's like the double standard in LO that it's okay for Persephone to do the same things - if not worse - than what Leuce and Minthe and Thetis do, because she's the main character and she's not some scummy "mud-sucking" lower class person, she's rich and a Queen and she's wearing a giant hat so it makes it okay /s

Unfortunately the saying of "I support women's rights and women's wrongs" is being used in a completely tone deaf "literally excusing the main character of her crimes and wrongdoings against others because she happens to be a woman" kind of way, while missing the real point of the saying - supporting women's wrongs doesn't mean you celebrate their abuse towards others, it just means women shouldn't automatically be viewed as irredeemable "crazy bitches" for making mistakes like any other human does, and like any other human, they should be given the opportunity to grow and heal and learn from their wrongs.

When it comes to Persephone specifically, it can't even be chalked up to a "one time mistake" anymore, she's literally been showing patterns of abusive behavior for years now and refusing to take accountability, and now even Rachel is meme'ing on it knowing fully well it's what people are calling Persephone out for in the critical spaces. That's not "supporting women's wrongs", that's enabling the wrongs of a person because they happen to be a woman, and that's not okay. Persephone isn't a "girl boss", she's a bully.

I think the double standard in these age gap romances also speaks to the idolization and fixation on women as being nothing more than conquests for men as well. People who romanticize age gaps between a young woman and an older man think, "Wow, that woman is so mature for her age, enough that an older richer man would choose HER to be his wife! So romantic!" when in reality those who know those dynamics are unhealthy and toxic recognize it as an older man taking advantage of a young woman who's being love-bombed into believing she's "mature for her age" so that she'll sleep with him. Meanwhile, on the other side of it, those who romanticize young men getting with older women tend to come at it from the angle of "well she's so old and washed up, no man could ever love her, her chance for love and a happily ever after is gone now! it's so wonderful of that young man to give that sad and lonely old woman love and attention!" and yet fail to see it from the same perspective of an older person manipulating a young person with zero life experience, because there's still this deeply-rooted ideology that women are "used up" by age 30 and any man who gives her attention beyond that age range is a hero. Completely neglecting the fact that relationships aren't off the table at all for older single people and they don't need to involve robbing the cradle.

I blame the lack of older couple representation in media tbh, so many mainstream romance stories are basically just this:

To pull it out of the perspective of LO and webtoons for a second (sorry, I'm going on a hell of a tangent here), remember how gross it was when it was revealed in Fifty Shades Darker that Christian had been introduced to the concept of BDSM at age 15 through one of his mom's friends (i.e. an older woman!) who Anastasia calls "Mrs. Robinson"? And they had that relationship until he was 21? And they never really did anything about that, it was pretty much just there to explain why Christian was fucked up but he still got married to Anastasia, an innocent woman who he was repeating the cycle of abuse with, and lived happily ever after anyways?

Yeah. That was pretty fucked up.