#statius achilleid

[katerinaaqu]

As per my other Statius mention on Achilles

I honestly feel very intrigued by the way Statius imagined his hero. I daresay he almost pictures him animalistic. For example when he was downright against himself being dressed as a woman and stay inside with the other daughters of Lycomedes Thetis basically shows him some of the women as they dance gracefully out the fields.

The sight instantly awakes the first waves of arousal inside Achilles who, as per Statius, never experienced such a thing in his life. His cheeks immediately flush and his body awakens as if in an instict. As if he is going through heat. Statius even mentions how Achilles was ready to pounce upon the women in general and Deidamia in particular.

Somehow this animalistic depiction of his desire and awakening is contradicting the hero's later grace and composure for a little while. It almost seems to imply that the way Achilles lived isolated in the wilderness under the care of Chiron he adopted these animalistic characteristics. He was pure, yes, without any essence or ideas for intrigue or lies or any thoughts like that and yet Statius seems to almost tells that this deprives from his human side. Achilles never experienced arousal he was too young till that point but once he did it was a feeling unknown to him and he almost seemed ready to act on instict and he had to be stopped by his mother who also later on proceeds on his transformation with feminine clothes and even places her own necklace around his throat.

The same animalistic frustration is what leads him to lose control with Deidamia at the celebration of Dionysus. Somehow this animalistic side manifesting with the God's infamous divine ecstasy and climate of the celebration.

Statius seems to be telling us that Achilles being pure to that extent also means to be instinctual like all animals of nature. It almost seems to be contemplating on the idealism of purity might as well not be so idealistic after all. And this is even potentially supported by the contrast with Odysseus who blows the cover of Achilles with his trick. Achilles made the choice to follow his gut and go to war but Odysseus used his brain to flush him out and somehow that contrast doesn't seem random with this narrative.

Food for thought

[sarafangirlart]

Ok so, there is this interesting part of the Achilleid where Zeus and Hera’s relationship is compared to Achilles and Deidamia

When I first heard of it I thought it was funny. Then I read the poem a bit more and I’m a li disturbed and confused.

So tldr Achilles disguised himself as a woman to draft dodge and he stays with Deidamia’s family and falls in love with her, at first it’s cute, Achilles teaches her music while she teaches him weaving and other feminine things. She realizes he’s in love with her but is too shy to reciprocate those feelings. Over time Achilles couldn’t take hiding his manhood anymore and… r*ped Deidamia.

Yeah…

The implication that Hera and Zeus grew up together is pretty interesting, there are multiple sources about both of them escaping their father but not much on them actually growing up together. Hera being shy about having a relationship with her brother is also interesting bc it reminds me of how, in one version of the cuckoo story, Hera brought up Rhea as a reason why she can’t be with him. It’s this whole thing that Hera and Zeus had a secret relationship hidden from their parents.

This also kinda implies a bit of… dubious consent (to put it mildly) in how Zeus got Hera to marry him. Ironically the cuckoo story doesn’t technically imply assault tho I’m surprised this part of the Achilleid isn’t brought up more.

Now this next part is more of a crack theory so don’t take it too seriously.

So you know how Thetis disguised Achilles as a girl to protect him? There is this story that Dionysus was disguised as a girl to avoid Hera’s wrath:

There is also this amusing parallel between Kronos and Hera (screenshot from @deathlessathanasia ):

With both being scared of by the Kouretes.

There are also some sources that state that Kronos spared his daughters and lets Rhea raise them, so what if… (and again this is a crack theory) Rhea disguised Zeus as a girl in order to protect him from Kronos?

[ilions-end]

the cherry on top of the skyros episode in the achilleid is that at the verrrrry end when achilles has torn away his dress and the jig is up, statius comes in like "hmmm... didn't this whole thing remind you of pentheus a little bit 🤔"

like YES??? YES. OF COURSE IT DID. you did that on PURPOSE when you had achilles attend the bacchic rites as a woman, i've been WAITING FOR YOU TO SAY IT!!

and the contrast drives me CRAZY. how pentheus is COOCOO OBSESSED with observing the rites and gets humiliated and torn apart for his digression, while achilles is forced along and is all bored middleschool class trip kid about it, and there are NO consequences for him

[sarafangirlart]

I low key feel like Statius has a virginity kink, if not he definitely wrote Zeus to have a virginity kink, which ig is in character.

"They are also carrying in baskets a robe as a gift. No childless or unmarried woman had worked the marvellous texture of these veils, not to be scorned by the chaste goddess, where much purple, embroidered in various ways, is in bloom, and inflamed with commingled gold. On the veils is the goddess herself, betrothed to the chamber of the great Thunderer, unexperienced of wedlock and fearful of putting off her role as sister; with her eyes downcast she touches the lips of the boy Jupiter; she is candid, and not yet offended by her husband’s deceits." - Statius, Thebaid 10.56-64

😭 Statius whyyy? This and the passage in the Achilleid 1.588-91 about the young and innocent Juno hurt to read. 😢

[smokey07]

Challenge Time!

(Yeah love to see you create stuff so yeah haha)

So since you expressed likeness with Achilles as Pyrrha and Deidamia here goes nothing: In Statius's "Achilleid" we see a scene from dionysian worshipping rituals and Achilles was assigned to lead the pursue of women wearing a fawn skin around his neck and all or with ivy wreath and possibly thyrsus too so challenge goes: Achilles and Deidamia dancing at the dionysian celebrations together

It could be anything from hand holding till very close embracing and all hehe it is up to you.

Random ideas hehehe

I am very sorry but my head kept replaying our talk about how the appearance of Pyhrra/ Achilles and Patroclus would worth a soap opera TV series.

So I decided to do something funny.

He couldn’t do split so he opted for holding Deidamia for a spin and the other women had a lot of questions about this.

Woman 1 asking Patroclus: “She’s got arms like that!?”

Patroclus aka the Damage Controller™️: “She carries water a lot.”

“She’s holding our princess with one arm.”

“She does competitive water carrying a lot?”

Achilles still technically fits the male perception of beauty so ig when he was Pyrrha he was just a very handsome butch??

[corvid-ghost]

Ok so I'm trying to collect every piece of the epic cycle/ things that have to so with the Trojan war/ the characters, and thos what I have so far

Aethiopis - Arctinus of Miletus

Achilleid - Statius

Aeneid - Virgil

Ajax - Sophocles

Alcmeonis - don't know

Andromache - Euripides

Bibliotheca - Pseudo-Apollodrus

Carmina Illiaca/AnteHomerica - John Tzetez

Cyclops - Euripides

Cypria - Stasinus

*De Raptu Hellene - Draconthius

Descriptions of Greece - Pausania

Ehoiai - Hesiod

Electra - Europides

Electra - Sophocles

Epigoni - Homer(?) Antimachus of Teos(?)

Fabulae - Hyginus

Fragment 14 - Sappho

Fragment 44 - Sappho

Harpage Hellenes - Colothus

Hecuba - Europides

Helen - Europides

Heroicus - Philostratus

Homerica - John Tzetez

Iliad - Homer

Iliou Persis - Arctinus of Miletus

Iphigenia - Euripides

Iphigenia Among the Tauri - Euripides

Iphigenia in Aulis - Europides

Little Iliad - Lesches of Lesbos

Metamorphoses - Ovid

Mythographus Homericus - we don't know

Nostoi - Agias of Troizen

Odyssey - Homer

Oedipodea - Cinaethon of Sparta

Oresteia (trilogy) - Aeschylus

Orestes - Euripidies

Orestes Tragodeia - Draconthius

Philoctetes - Sophocles

Post-Homerica - John Tzetez

PostHomerica - Quintus Smyrnaeus

Rawlinson Excidium Troie -

Telegony - Eugammon of Cyrene

Trojan Women - Euripides

Tryphodorus the Taking of Illios - Epyllion

Thebaid - Homer (?)

Thebiad - Stesichorus

Tzetez Theogeny -

Vatican mythographer one -

If any of this is incorrect lmk or if there's any other you know too

[gunsandspaceships]

Chiron

"Kheiron's name was derived from the Greek word for hand (kheir) and meant something like "skilled with the hands." In myth it was also closely associated with the word kheirourgos "surgeon."" (Source)

Fragment from "The seven physicians"

"Wisest and justest of all the centaurs" immortal Chiron, mentor of heroes. He invented pharmacy, medicine and surgery and taught Asclepius, the god of medicine, himself.

He lived in a cave on Mount Pelion until he was driven out of his home.

Statius, Silvae 1. 4. 98 "If there be any herb [to cure this illness] in twy-formed Chiron's health-giving cave."

Pindar, Nemean Ode 4. 55 ff "Then [Akastos] sought Pelias' son [Peleus], stealing his sword, the blade of Daidalos' (Daedalus') magic, to contrive his death by ambush; saved by Kheiron's (Chiron's) hand, the fate destined by Zeus he made his own."

Ho Yinsen, an Afghan surgeon, saved Tony in a cave using his innovative surgical methods after Tony was betrayed by Obadiah Stane, who stole his weapon and ordered the "wild centaurs" to kill him from an ambush in the mountains.

Propertius, Elegies 2. 1 "Medicine can cure all human pains . . . Chiron, son of Phillyra, healed the blindness of Phoenix."

Ho and the Ten Rings "healed the blindness of Phoenix" Tony by showing him what was really going on with his creations and that he couldn't trust the people in his company. Yinsen also helped Tony see his true self.

Statius, Achilleid 2. 96 ff "Also did he teach me of juices and the grasses that succour disease, what remedy will staunch to fast a flow of blood, what will lull to sleep, what will close gaping wounds; what plague should be checked with a knife, what will yield to herbs; and he implanted deep within my heart the precepts of divine justice".

"Chiron holding Achilles"

Chiron was wounded by a poisoned arrow while visiting the cave of the centaur Pholus. Even though Chiron was a master of medicine and healing, he could not heal himself from the poison and suffered excruciating pain for several days. He wanted to give up his immortality and die to stop the pain.

Chiron went to Zeus and offered to exchange his life for the life and freedom of Prometheus.

He died willingly so that Prometheus could go on living and continue his mission of teaching humankind and bringing it science and technology.

"Chiron sacrifices himself for Prometheus"

Gifs by @thepunisher

[oddyseye]

How old was Achilles when he went to war?

The traditional timeline of the Trojan War spans ten years. Homer’s Iliad picks up in the final year, so whatever age Achilles was at the start of the war, he’s a decade older by the time we meet him sulking in his tent. Homer himself doesn’t say much about Achilles’ age directly, but there are clues we can use.

Achilles’ age is tied up in the famous prophecy about his fate: short life and glory, or long life and obscurity. Everyone knows what Thetis wanted — she tried to make him immortal. Some versions (Ovid, Metamorphoses 11.198–220) say she dipped him in the River Styx as a baby. Other versions (Argonautica 4.815–819) say she anointed him with ambrosia and burned off his mortal parts. Either way, the key is that he was a child when this happened. So, we’re talking baby “not ready-for-war” Achilles.

After this, Thetis yeets him off to Mount Pelion to be raised by the centaur Chiron. Here’s where we start hitting the vague years. Chiron taught Achilles music, medicine, hunting, and how to murder people better than anyone else in all of Greece. Now, there is no clear timeline for how long Achilles lived on Pelion, but let’s assume he stayed there from about age 6 to his early teens, like some mythological boarding school.

Now we get to the Achilleid (thanks, Statius) and other sources that explain how Thetis, knowing the prophecy, tried to keep Achilles away from war. She disguised him as a girl and hid him among the daughters of King Lycomedes on Scyros. This is where things get messy. While on Scyros, Achilles had a little fling with Deidamia, one of Lycomedes’ daughters, and fathered Neoptolemus (aka Pyrrhus, named after daddy’s drag persona).

Here’s where the math starts to break down. Neoptolemus eventually fights in the Trojan War, but as a young boy in the final year of the war. Assuming Neoptolemus is 10–12 when he shows up, and the war lasted 10 years, Achilles probably had him at 17 or 18. This suggests Achilles was still a teenager when he left Scyros and joined the Greek forces. If my math is correct....which it usually isn’t, so please do double check. The Trojan War supposedly began over Helen’s abduction. By this point, Achilles is already famous. The Cypria (a lost epic) hints that Achilles fought smaller battles before the main siege of Troy, which means he wasn’t a newbie. If he was 17 or 18 when the war started, this timeline fits the image of him as a young warrior, full of energy and rage, by the time Homer picks up the story in the Iliad. Fast forward to the Iliad, where Achilles is sulking in his tent during the last year of the war. By now, he’s experienced, deadly, and emotionally volatile. Homer doesn’t tell us how old he is, but he’s often described as youthful and at the height of his strength. This puts him in his mid-to-late 20s. If the war lasted 10 years, Achilles was likely 16–18 when he first set sail for Troy.

Breaking It Down Chronologically:

Baby Achilles: Immortality experiments by Thetis (ages 0–5).

Chiron’s Apprentice: Living and training with the centaur (ages 6–15, give or take).

Scyros and Neoptolemus: Disguised as a girl, fathers a kid (ages 16–17).

Trojan War: Joins the Greek army as a young adult (ages 17–18).

Iliad: Achilles is around 27–28 when the epic unfolds.

Achilles was probably 16–18 years old when he left for Troy. By the time of the Iliad, he’s around 27, at his peak but not yet old. This fits the Greek heroic ideal: young, deadly, and gloriously doomed.

[thoodleoo]

i think my favorite part of statius's achilleid is when achilles (currently being mentored by chiron) has killed a lioness and taken its cubs, and is poking them into showing their claws, only to toss them aside and run up to hug his mom when he shows up. it's such a youthful behavior. he's a dumb kid doing dumb kid things and he's excited to see his mom. he's described as "already as tall as his mother." he has no idea that someday the lion cubs' role will be reversed, and that he will be the cub lying dead while the mother shows her claws. it's only a couple of lines and yet it paints such a bittersweet picture of a young achilles.

[the-goddess-of-annoying]

I would like to hear about how the arranged marriage of Achilles's parents fucked him up.

basically Achilles doesn't know how to cope with the fact that he's human

i should preface this by saying that i'm going off of the Achilleid for a lot of this. the Achilleid was written centuries after the Iliad, and by a Roman, but i think Statius's Thetis would explain a lot about Homer's Achilles.

okay so when i say "arranged marriage" what i mean is Zeus wanted to have sex with the Nereid Thetis but then found out that there was a prophecy that she would bear a son greater than his father, so he went "shit okay can't have that, who's a mortal that i like-- hey Peleus! wanna marry a goddess?"

so. Thetis is a goddess married to a mortal. Thetis did not want to marry a mortal. she didn't choose this, and she was not prepared to have a mortal son. she has no idea how to cope with the fact that her son will someday die, and she has raised him to be equally maladapted about his own mortality. she sees the fact that she was forced to marry a mortal man as monumentally unfair both to her and to Achilles, because if she had had a child with another god instead, then Achilles would be a god. she likes to remind him of this.

(like. at one point in the Achilleid she carries him across the ocean in the middle of the night while he's asleep, and when he wakes up and goes "where am i??", her answer begins "If, dear lad, a kindly lot had brought me the wedlock that it offered, in the fields of heaven should I be holding thee, a glorious star, in my embrace, nor a celestial mother should I fear the lowly Fates or the destinies of earth. But now unequal is thy birth, my son, and only on thy mother's side is the way of death barred for thee")

(her answer finishes along the lines of "now put on this dress". we never hear her actually tell Achilles where he is. although presumably he finds out at some point over the course of the next year)

and this is why, when Agamemnon offends him, his response is to get Zeus to help the other side in order to punish Agamemnon, even though that's going to affect way more people than just Agamemnon. it's way over-the-top for a mortal, but it'd be a perfectly reasonable and measured reaction for a god (which Thetis believes Achilles should be, so of course she agrees with this plan and goes to Zeus for him). divine wrath baby

[katerinaaqu]

As the subject of Statius was brought before I have to say that indeed his writing has something deeply psychological and certainly he seems to bring up some amazing points

For instance to the subject of Achilles the way that he wrote the piqued emotions of Achilles that somehow end up exploding is something that was presented in the roughest and daresay animalistic way.

In his Achilleid we do see Achilles in Skyros, where he was basically carried away by his mother, against his will originally. He seems though eventually willing to try and comply to his mother's wishes. He tries his best to learn a role he never thought proper or natural for him or his dignity and yet he tries and learn. Eventually he meets Deidamia, the only person that seems to know who he is in Skyros. He starts falling for her and into his emotions, the way he never learnt to regulate in the first place much less explore his attraction and sexual desire for a woman he explodes.

He laments his manhood that he has to hide

(pudet haec taedetque fateri! -> I am disgusted to admit to be ashamed in such a manner! -translation from Latin by me).

He is frustrated. He remembers Patroclus who is now the one to shoot with his own bow and have the role of a man while he is forced to take the role of the woman and he explodes that he cannot even properly express his desire for a woman he likes

(in one way it almost feels like Statius implies the general aversion towards women showing sexual desire for each other? Taken that homosexuality even between men was kinda not fully expressed with dignity at least to the recessive party much less for women) Achilles couldn't openly show his desire for Deidamia for he was also disguised as a woman. The essence that two women could be seen in such a manner being potentially heavily criticized seems to be contributing to this identity AND sexual frustration

In the middle of these accumulated emotions Achilles assaults Deidamia (Statius mentions how he "steals his desire the "right time" tempesiva suis torpere silentia furtis) who is now frightened at his own violent behavior especially given how she herself had feelings for him. Achilles even notices how frightened she is and he even goes like "why are you scared? It is me" (‘ille ego — quid trepidas?) even after he knows she has every reason to be worried of him. He still cannot understand the severity of his actions. He has expressed his manhood which he has suppressed for so long. He thinks that Deidamia would understand. He still hasn't realized how that seems unacceptable. And yet his love, the infamous and EDGY love of his is expressed later on with his own lament to leave her for the war.

Deidamia is of course appalled. And yet she knows that she cannot report his assault without betraying his secret and potentially destroy everything so in one way she chooses to forgive him. Arguably she still loves him given how she laments the separation from him. She seems to be more traumatized by the fact that Achilles whom she arguably admires and loves has ruined that image of his in her mind. She is desperate to hold that image of the past in her as welll

The complicated emotions from them both are presented in such a way that can both disturb and give you thoughts.

The pique of the emotions of Achilles who is confused on his own identity and frustrated in his own role or sexuality and feels ashamed to admit his own manhood is also potentially why, as per Statius again, he blows his cover when Odysseus and Diomedes arrive to Skyros and Odysseus brings the two different types of gifts.

In Statius version one can even notice how Neoptolemus was born by two people who arguably loved each other but his conception was not done in an act of love but an act of confused frustration and violence (it seems that Statius could potentially use that as an "explanation" for the future crimes of violence Neoptolemus commits). Or course one doesn't need to take Statius version for this and take in the version where Achilles rapes Deidamia (although arguably this could be interesting psychological thing to add to it)

the violent act is so disturbing especially given how Statius mentions how young Achilles was brought to Skyros so he had no chance to learn what to do or how to handle his own sexuality (thus the way he is in shock himself)

Achilles was tired of hiding his manhood! He wanted to express it. He wanted to find glory at war and he wanted to take the destiny that would give his name eternal life. He had already realized that his own frustration was catastrophic and he wanted to prove it! THIS is why he picked the weapons

He made his own choice!

He is not to hide his manhood and his own desire to fight as opposed to his mother's desire to protect him! And arguably that is also the beginning of his own downfall eventually.

(As per my other Analysis on Achilles)

[sarafangirlart]

The other Kronides watching Zeus flirting with an oblivious Hera:

“What are you doing biological bro?”

[ilions-end]

i finished statius' ACHILLEID. thoughts thoughts thoughts:

i knew going in it was a VERY short unfinished epic, but i didn't know it would be FUN?? if i ever get that time machine, FIRST THING i go back and find one publius papinius statius, i lock him in a room, and i'm NOT letting him out until he's finished the achilleid!

achilles is statius' BLORBO in a way neither homer, quintus nor virgil have blorbos. statius likes achilles to be strong and pretty and graceful, but most of all ENDEARING even when he fails. and he fails a lot, because this is him still figuring out how to be an adult, not to mention a prophesied legend literally everyone is waiting for to step up

the one thing that gets tiring is just how many prophecies permeate the achilleid. nothing's left to chance, there are so few unknowns. even ODYSSEUS was aware that from peleus' wedding there would come a child destined to be a central warrior in an upcoming gigantic war.

as it stands, the achilleid is more of a... thetisiad? she is very centered in the narrative (we spend more time looking at things from her point of view than achilles') and there is SO MUCH SYMPATHY for her, oh my gosh!! she loves ONE person, her son, the only worthwhile thing she got out of a traumatizing marriage, and she despairs that he's fated to die young in a silly human war.

also i'm a deidamia defender forever now. so three-dimensional, so clever!

aughhh i love how much characterization statius puts in, even in the small scenes! my favourite example is odysseus and diomedes as they walk up to lycomedes' place (literally just moving characters from A to B). diomedes teases odysseus, and odysseus is delighted to be teased. that night we're told odysseus CAN'T SLEEP because he's too excited about showing off his plan the next morning!

the unveiling of achilles is completely different from the chagrined defeat/"achilles is a fucking idiot" ways i've heard it retold! i love that it's collaborative, it's a mutual triumph. it's just as much achilles (who's been suffering in gender dysphoria hell for a year) longing to be exposed as it is odysseus LIVING for showing everyone (especially diomedes?) how clever he is. it's not just the shield and the spear and the bugle, it's odysseus playing the part of the siren, whispering in achilles' ear that he knows who he is and describing how glorious he will be on the trojan battlefield. it's achilles' grateful relief at being ALLOWED not to pretend anymore as he rips off his own dress even before the bugle calls

also it's very important to me that the moment he's no longer hunching over trying to make himself look small and inoffensive, we're told achilles is taller than both odysseus and diomedes

i KEEP IMAGINING how good statius would have made the rest!! especially because as book ii ends, achilles regards odysseus as a cool uncle; he's the guy who rescued him! i want to think statius would have put in the big mystery quarrel achilles and odysseus are said to have had early in the war, something to drastically change that affection. i want to know how statius would have handled troilus, and the gods. augh statius you roman BLUEBALLER

an assortment of story beats still revolving in my head:

chiron is such a sweetheart!! he's SO gallant with thetis, he's so affectionate with achilles. he HIDES HIS TEARS when achilles leaves, awww

statius writes out phoinix completely. as a phoinix stan i object. sure chiron can raise young achilles, but i NEED phoinix to tend to him as a baby

i enjoy how achilles EXPLODES into a mess of teenagerly hormones when he first sees deidaima. it's so funny that thetis is looking on (and we get my favourite simile of the achilleid, of a herdsman delighting in a young bull snorting and foaming at a beautiful heifer) like "aaaaand there's my son's sexual awakening. i see! well, we can use that" and THAT explains why achilles is so willing to commit to the female disguise

(listen. listen. few things mean more to me than the love between achilles and patroclus. but achilles is a teenage boy at the age when a fucking breeze will give him a boner, and deidamia is the most beautiful and the cleverest of her sisters. i really enjoy a story where achilles and deidamia are neither "fated eternal true love" or one's a sneaky opportunist. it's much more compelling that they're both knots of budding emotions and bodily feedback)

i notice that statius never uses the name pyrrha, he doesn't seem to have a fake name at all, just "achilles' sister"

lycomedes is SO honoured and proud that thetis is entrusting her daughter to him. i feel sorry for lycomedes, he seems so earnest and hasn't done anything to get tricked

the one thing i can't forgive statius for is that after spending SO much time establishing that achilles and deidamia (who knows he's a guy) are genuinely into each other, it feels like statius goes OUT OF HIS WAY assuring us that their first sexual encounter is rape. sure they talk right after, deidamia forgives him, AND i understand there are social rules that makes deidamia more "honourable" and "worthy" when she resists, but like. sigh.

aLONG with the previously mentioned interplay between odysseus and diomedes as they walk up to lycomedes' court, there's a simile where they're both starving wolves on the hunt. so sexy it's almost illegal

the feast scene is SO FUNNY omg. all of achilles' careful feminine training dissolving because odysseus and diomedes are there with their boundless masculinity for him to feed off of. deidamia practically WRESTLING achilles back down on the couch every time he forgets himself and behaves too much like a man. odysseus chatting with lycomedes SPECIFICALLY trying to rile up achilles, and then after the women have left (achilles dragging his feet and looking back, YEARNING for their male company) odysseus specifically praises the maiden's "almost masculine" beauty (because ohh he suspects. he just needs to prove it in the morning. he can't SLEEP for it)

when they depart, achilles earnestly swears to deidamia that no other women shall ever bear his children. i find it interesting as a reminder of the social rules of its era. neither of them expect achilles to be sexually exclusive, just not fathering potential heirs. which again makes me wonder about the contraceptives in ancient greece

on the ship towards aulis, diomedes begs achilles to tell them all about his feats and training with chiron, and achilles is so shy about it! who can blame him! diomedes has a WAY more impressive track record

odysseus is SO good at firing up achilles' outrage at paris even as he's just catching him up on what the war's about. and he's so pleased at how easily achilles' outrage can be directed! you KNOW that would have developed in such an interesting way AUGH THE REST WOULD HAVE BEEN SO GOOD.

[johaerys-writes]

Hi! I’m pretty new to the world of Achilles and Patroclus (I read The Song Of Achilles last month) and I just saw your post about your love for them. When you said “there's just so much stuff out there about them (tsoa, hades game, the iliad, a bunch of other myths and adaptations, non fiction books, academic papers etc)” I was wondering if you could touch on the other myths and adaptations part maybe? I’m not exactly sure where to begin there but I would appreciate any guidance you could give!

Oh boy I don't know where to start either because there's a LOT. I don't want to overwhelm you so I'll just list a few key myths and adaptations off the top of my head:

Adaptations

So as far as adaptations go, I will include works where both Achilles and Patroclus show up and that are inspired by the Iliad.

Hades Game: I'm pretty sure you're already familiar with this, just mentioning it just in case!

Aristos the musical: it's a musical as the name suggests, and it revolves around Achilles and Patroclus' lives from Pelion all the way to Troy. It's really lovely and has made me emotional on numerous occasions and I love revisiting it every so often! It also has a Tumblr account: @aristosmusical

Troilus and Cressida: this is Shakespeare's take on the Trojan War and it's quite interesting, not really faithful to the Iliad but offers a sort of different perspective on the characters and the events that led to Hector's death.

Achilles (1995) by Barry JC Purves: it's a short stop motion film using clay puppets, it's on Youtube and it's only 11 mins and I think it's worth a watch! I find it very compelling visually and any adaptation where Achilles and Patroclus are lovers is a plus in my book 🫶

Holding Achilles: this is an Australian stage production by the Dead Puppet Society, I really enjoyed it and I found it an interesting blend of TSOA and Iliad Patrochilles, which also featured some cool new elements that I hadn't really seen before. It used to be free to watch for a while but now I think you have to pay to watch it, there's more info on their website.

The Silence of the Girls: a novel by Pat Barker, it's a take on the events of the Iliad mostly through Briseis' eyes, I personally didn't really like the book or the characterisations but hey both Achilles and Patroclus are in it so it might be worth a read.

There are some other novels I've heard of where Achilles and Patroclus appear (A Thousand Ships by Natalie Haynes, Wrath Goddess Sing by Maya Deane) and also a TV show called Troy: Fall of a City but I haven't read/watched them so I can't really rec them

Myths

Most myths revolve around Achilles, there aren't that many with Patroclus I'm afraid, but here are some of my favourites:

Achilleid by Publius Papinius Statius: this is an epic poem about Achilles' stay on Skyros disguised as a girl and his involvement with Deidameia. It's interesting but I'd personally take the characterisations and events in it with a grain of salt because Romans were notorious for their unsympathetic portrayal of Greek Homeric heroes but it's still a cool thing that's out there and free to read online.

Iphigenia at Aulis: a tragedy by the ancient Greek playwright Euripides, it's basically the dramatised version of the myth of Iphigenia's sacrifice in Aulis which predates the Iliad, there are many obscure versions of this myth but Euripides' sort of updated version is my favourite, I will never shut up about this play!! Lots of a nuance and very interesting portrayals of Achilles, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Clytemnestra, Iphigenia and pretty much everyone in there, well worth a read.

Lost plays: there are several plays in which Achilles appears but that have been lost or survive only in fragments, but two of my favourites are Euripides' Telephus and Aeschylus' Myrmidons. Telephus takes place before the Trojan War, while the Greeks are on their way to Troy. I really like Achilles' characterisation in the fragments that remain and also the fact that he was already renowned for his knowledge of medicine and healing despite how young he was. The fragments that survive from Aeschylus' Myrmidons I think are fewer but the play was extremely popular at the time it was presented to the public and it sparked a lot of controversy re: Achilles and Patroclus' relationship and who tops/bottoms so I think that's kind of funny lol.

There are lots of other obscure little myths about Achilles that I've picked up by reading various books, papers and wiki posts on the matter and that are just too numerous to list here, but what I will mention and that I think concludes the myths section of this post pretty neatly is that the Iliad and the Odyssey are not the only works about the Trojan War that were written, merely the only works that survived. The rest of the books in the Epic Cycle have been preserved either in fragmentary form or in descriptions in other works, and I think the Epic Cycle wiki page is a good place to start if you want to get an idea of what each of those books contained.

I hope this helped! 💙

[historygirlie]

short books recs:

achilleid by statius (prequel to the iliad about achilles cuz you said you like him / you’re like him)

DISCLAIMER THOUGH:

“The surviving poem comes to an abrupt close shortly into its second book. Why? The usual presumption is that the poet’s death intervened, and that is probably correct. But it is worth noting that the completed portion is perfectly elegant, with no gaps or incomplete lines, and that it ends at a moment of closure where there is logical pause in the narrative. Rather than a rough draft, this looks to be a polished sample.”

the boy who found fear at last

patrochilles ao3 fics (been a year since i read these so i apologize if they’re not as good as i remember lol):

these are the hands of fate by subak_jumokbap

these bodies do know joy by amphitrite

like moss climbs a tree by sunshineriptiee

OMG THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! WHY ARE U SUCH A GREAT PERSON HUH?! I WAS IN SUCH A BIG REREADING TIME CUZ I HAD NOTHING TO READ AND THIS HELS SMMM!! OMG TYYYYYYY

[florian-luster]

Hypnos, the Gentle God & Morpheus, his son, Prince of Dreams

Classical depictions of the Lords of Sleep and Dreams

"Then Hypnos, the still and soft, spoke to her in answer..." Homer, Iliad 14

"Soft-eyed Hypnos (Sleep) came, embracing all his limbs, as a mother on seeing her dear son after a long absence folds him with her wings to her loving breast." Greek Lyric V Anonymous, Fragment 929g

"Somnus (Sleep) [Hypnos], quietest of the gods, Somnus, peace of all the world, balm of the soul, who drives care away, who gives ease to weary limbs after the hard day's toil and strength renewed to meet the morrow's tasks, bid now thy Somnia (Dreams), whose perfect mimicry matches the truth... The father Somnus chose from among his sons, his thronging thousand sons, one who in skill excelled to imitate the human form; Morpheus his name, than whom none can present more cunningly the features... All these dream-brothers the old god passed by and chose Morpheus alone to undertake Thaumantias' [Iris'] commands; then in sweet drowsiness on his high couch he sank his head to sleep." Ovid, Metamorphoses 11

"And do thou, O Somnus (Sleep) [Hypnos,], vanquisher of woes, rest of the soul, the better part of human life, thou winged son of thy mother... O thou [Somnus-Hypnos], who art peace after wanderings, haven of life, day's respite and night's comrade, who comest alike to king and slave, who doest compel the human race, trembling at death, to prepare for unending night--sweetly and gently soothe his weary spirit; hold him fast bound in heavy stupor; let slumber chain his untamed limbs, and leave not his savage breast until his former mind regain its course." Seneca, Hercules Furens

"Somnus (Sleep) [Hypnos] steals o'er the greedy cares of men, and stoops and beckons from the sky, shrouding a toilsome life once more in sweet oblivion." Statius, Thebaid 1

"Somnus (Sleep) [Hypnos], gentlest of the gods..." Statius, Thebaid 10

"Luna (the Moon) [Selene] in her rosy chariot was climbing to the height of mid-heaven, when drowsy Somnus (Sleep) [Hypnos] glided down with full sweep of his pinions to earth and gathered a silent world to his embrace." Statius, Achilleid 1

"Hypnos (Sleep) beating his shady wing sent all breathing nature to rest." Nonnus, Dionysiaca 2