#theon and jeyne kill ramsay?????

[greenbloods]

Peace and love on planetos to the fact that the characters get to kill their abusers. Cersei kills Robert. Lysa kills Jon Arryn. Petyr kills Lysa. Dany and Mirri both indirectly kill Khal Drogo. in a world so unjust, theres still some karma in action.

[daenystheedreamer]

i want jeyne to kill ramsay <3

[jeyneofpoole]

his dad kicked him out for being a sissy so he’s crashing with asha who won’t let him sleep on her couch so he’s duking it out over floorspace with qarl’s free-roaming potbellied pig named hamburg. he took the kids ‘trick-or-treating’ once but really he just made them sit in the corner while he got beat up in the bathroom of ramsay’s halloween rager and woke up in a cell. he wears axe body spray. he makes jeyne get her permit so she can chauffeur him around town because he never got his license and can’t afford a car. he has 15 novelty lighters.

modern theon has frosted tips and watched porn on his ipod touch until he was 20 and worked at a movie theatre where he and jon would hate-smoke weed with each other on their breaks and he got sansa addicted to vaping when she was 12 and during the stark family disney trip he lost rickon in the gift shop and when he got robb high for the first time robb got so scared he called his mom and cat kicked theon out of the house but he was back a day later. if you even care.

[vivacissimx]

theon witnessing shireen's execution would be Excellent

all the theon discourses would take thee harshest breath inward when the violence is laid bare. a child hostage's fear of ned stark, northern hypocrisy, nothing truly happened to you theon, after all gared was a deserter, mance was a deserter. the repetition of false identities in/around this situation (rattleshirt for mance & gilly's baby for dalla's, both changelings such monsters; theon presenting the miller's boys as bran & rickon as well as jeyne poole as arya; theon presenting as reek) does inherently present arguments about how we justify violence based on who it is committed upon— which would make witnessing the Horror a unique experience for theon imo. all the other deaths-by-burning have been legitimized by accusing the victim of a crime (treason, cannibalism) and theon is a person who grew up in winterfell aware that he was already judged guilty of the crime of being his father's son. ned keeping him alive as hostage/ward was more akin to a stay in his sentence rather than any assurance of safety based upon his own good behavior. few if anybody would protest should theon's father have rebelled and ned been called upon to serve 'justice.' so the execution of an innocent child would not shock theon as it would the others who'd been content to say well it only happens to the most black-hearted of criminals therefore I'm content to look away. in fact, it'd be a confirmation of what we as readers know he's always known— since theon was a child, since he scoffed at ser rodrik protesting that jaime lannister would attempt to murder an innocent child, since robb forbade the torture/execution of hostages only to allow it in theon's case at ramsay's hands. I'm imagining theon bursting into inappropriate laughter and the disgust laid upon him, but who are you truly disgusted with? how did you think this would end?

I do also smell a little greysnow Implication re: jon ending 'mance's' suffering quickly by having his archers kill him before the flames can. if we are dealing seriously with a bran & theon connection it could be interesting to have bran push theon to end shireen's suffering, perhaps as a result of the melisandre-bloodraven tension wherein she receives power from said burnings. and the idea of bran pushing theon to commit this violence which bran himself narrowly avoided could be quite gritty indeed. the Wall regularly raises questions of complicity, so. could be!

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

D&D saying that one of their favorite plots from the books is the Boltons in Winterfell is a massive sign of their sexism. Now, for anyone one else, I'd probably not care, in fact, I'd agree it's a very interesting part. However, when it comes to the showrunners who needlessly wrote in excessive rape and violence against women, I see it as a red flag. That's compounded by the way they wrote it.

From the beginning of the show, D&D sabotaged the storyline by removing Jeyne Poole. Keep in mind, ADWD was released in 2008, while GOT premiered in 2011, meaning there was no possible way for D&D to not know everything necessary to bring about that specific plot. Add to that the fact that GRRM was heavily involved in season one, them blatantly ignoring Jeyne makes even less sense if they truly cared about adapting it properly.

Knowing this, that D&D themselves sabotaged their own story, the way it was handled makes a bit more sense, though not nearly enough. Without Jeyne there to play the part of fake Arya, a new bride for Ramsay was needed. Sansa was D&D's favorite character, they were unsatisfied with the story GRRM had written for her, they wanted more screen time and plot relevance for her. It seemed like making Sansa take Jeyne's place was a good solution to both these issues.

Except it wasn't. Littlefinger sending Sansa out of the Vale to marry Ramsay makes no sense. Not only is Sansa the object of Littlefinger's obsession, a replacement for Catelyn in his mind, she also was important to Littlefinger getting the Vale on his side (in the show). She was charming the lords and knights, balancing their intense dislike for him with their desire to help/protect her. Not to mention she was his only alibi to save him from accusations of Lysa's murder. Sending her away from the Vale harms Littlefinger's plans. She also would definitely not be "protected" from Cersei; after all the Boltons were loyal to the Lannisters and hated the Starks, what's to stop them from killing Sansa or handing her over once the Northern lords are more settled?

Speaking of the Northern lords, D&D removed the Northern Conspiracy. Throughout the book plot, the Northern lords are plotting to save Arya and depose the Boltons (in a nutshell, it's actually much more complex, but I'm not going into that rn). It's an excellent expression of how the Northerners loved the Starks and hate the Boltons. In the show, the lords are a bit disgruntled, sure, but they have no interest in deposing the Boltons and saving Sansa.

Another major part of the storyline minimized by the show is Theon/Reek. Theon's struggle with identity is a major part of his character throughout the series, and ADWD is no different. He's been stripped entirely of his identity by Ramsay's torture and Theon's own choices. Part of his arc in this book is discovering himself apart from the Starks and the Greyjoys.

That's definitely not what the show did. As I said earlier, Sansa is D&D's favorite character, so naturally she became the center focus of this arc, while Theon was pushed aside. He's essentially reduced to the method of Sansa's escape and goes on track to return to his pre-season one perception of himself: a Stark. This is a massive disservice to his character, Theon isn't a Stark; his life with them is important to his storyline and will definitely inform what he becomes, but it's not the true culmination of his arc. Basically, Theon was turned into a side character in his own story. It's through his pov we see this story, he's the character most tied to Ramsay. Obviously Jeyne is important and a main character in her own right for this arc, but she is not the central character we see the story through. So why is Sansa? She has no stake in this story, Jeyne is forced there after being sex trafficked and Theon is a captive.

So what does this leave for the show version of the plot? There's no conspiracy, Theon's pushed to the side, and politics and overall story are sacrificed. Well that leaves torture and violence against Ramsay's bride. Without the many moving parts of that storyline, it's just a story of a woman being abused horribly by her husband and eventually escaping. However, the escape isn't even the main aspect of the story focused on, that's always the abuse. It's also purely Sansa's abuse, not Theon's or the many people tortured and murdered by Ramsay, Sansa is the sole focus.

So basically, D&D took a plotline that's filled with the inner workings of Northern politics and the complexities of battling identity loss and reduced it to another excuse to show a woman be raped and abused on screen. The desire to turn this stroy into another way to make Sansa suffer is disturbing, and to make matters worse she fucking thanks Ramsay later on?? This whole storyline in the show is disgusting and yet another sign of how sexist D&D are.

[visenyaism]

You think Theon is getting out of everything alive? I am absolutely desperate for a Theon survival even though tbh I don't think it looks very good for him

that’s one of the ones i do not really doubt. all of balon greyjoy’s sons died and he lived. he spent his entire childhood thinking he could be killed at any minute for something that wasn’t his fault and he lived. he turned his cloak and burned winterfell and killed his kin and he lived. he survived ramsay and he wanted to die every day and he jumped off the walls of winterfell with jeyne and he lived. the person he thinks he should have died with is gone. now he has to live.

[scarareg]

Some of the reasons GOT crashed and burned was because there were major events that went without consequences. For example, let's have Cersei blowing up the Great Sept and somehow everyone, especially the smallfolk, did not have any kind of reaction about it. In HOTD Rhaenys blowed up the Dragonpit,killing thousand of people and no-one cares, and her dragon is beloved by the civilians somehow

Other point is how they changed the characters personalities from one episode to another, without any reason or character arc, just to turn them into villains. Sorry for the reminder of Dany' character assasination. But it reminds me of Aemond, in the sense that he is now acting like an anime villain who does not respects his mom (or anyone) at all and just wants war for some reason, even if in S1 he was completely different

Another point is how they omitted some book characters because their stories may be hard to adapt, or/and because if they were never mentioned in the show, then there are fewer plot lines, so in theory the show would be easier to write. So who cares about Young Griff,right? Just like in HOTD they are acting like Maelor is not important, so they can erase him. Or ,Daeron? Who is that? It doesn't really matter

Lastly, they gave book plots to other characters, so Sansa is now stuck with Theon and Ramsay, which originally is Jeyne Poole's plotline. In HOTD they are giving to Rhaena Nettles' story

But of course HOTD is going to end up ok, right guys? Nothing can go wrong

[jedimaesteryoda]

You often miss how similar Jorah Mormont and Petyr Baelish are in some respects.

When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr's life. He let him off with a scar. Afterward my father sent him away. I have not seen him since." -AGOT, Catelyn IV Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world." -ACOK, Daenerys I

They pursued beautiful highborn women far above their station who, and both being southron women who married northern lords. Petyr pined for Catelyn Tully, and fought a duel for her hand against her betrothed, Brandon Stark. Jorah won a tourney with the favor of Lynesse Hightower, he crowned her queen of love and beauty and managed to marry her when he asked for her hand.

Their stories have a romantic element to them with Petyr dueling for Cat's hand and Jorah winning a tourney with Lynesse's favor, but they end up being subverted with neither getting a happy ending. Petyr loses the duel and is nearly killed, and then SAed by Lysa and sent from Riverrun. Jorah's marriage didn't work out, exhausting his family's coffers to provide her the luxuries she was used to and after selling poachers to slavers, which forced him into exile. Catelyn ended up marrying Ned Stark and Lynesse ended up leaving Jorah to be a merchant-prince's concubine.

After that, they found themselves in service to women with Lysa Arryn having Jon Arryn raisie up Petyr and him later serving Queen Cersei while Jorah ending up serving Daenerys in exile. They also end up betraying the people they serve with Littlefinger having a hand in the War of Five Kings and being behind Joffrey's murder, killing Lysa and Jorah spying on Daenerys.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them." -AGOT, Daenerys VII "I'm a good girl," Jeyne whimpered. "They trained me." -ADWD, Theon

Another thing they have in common is their attitude towards children and sex slavery. Petyr took the orphaned Jeyne Poole, forced her into sexual slavery at one of his brothels as shown by the whippings she endured for refusing and mentioning "she was trained." He then sent her to Ramsay Bolton of all people, likely not being ignorant of the things he had heard about him. Jorah had no qualms selling kids into sex slavery en masse, and when Dany tells him to stop Eroeh from being raped, he initially pushes back saying the Dothraki are claiming "their reward."

"You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." "Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age." -ASOS, Sansa VII "What did she look like, your Lady Lynesse?" Ser Jorah smiled sadly. "Why, she looked a bit like you, Daenerys." -ACOK, Daenerys I

It fits their creepy attitude towards the opposite gender with their fixation on young girls after the loss of their previous interests of affection. Petyr fixates on Cat's daughter Sansa Stark who does bear a noted resemblance to her mother while Jorah fixates on Daenerys who he admits looks like his ex-wife.

For half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss . . . before she turned her face away and wrenched free. "What are you doing?" Petyr straightened his cloak. "Kissing a snow maid." . . . "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ." -ASOS, Sansa VII It was a long kiss, though how long Dany could not have said. When it ended, Ser Jorah let go of her, and she took a quick step backward. "You . . . you should not have . . ." "I should not have waited so long," he finished for her. "I should have kissed you in Qarth, in Vaes Tolorru. I should have kissed you in the red waste, every night and every day. You were made to be kissed, often and well." His eyes were on her breasts. Dany covered them with her hands, before her nipples could betray her. "I . . . that was not fitting. I am your queen." -ASOS, Daenerys I

Their treatment towards these girls can be described as possessive and abusive. While posing to their girls as their protectors, they basically use it to enforce control over them. They force kisses on the girls, and when the girls make it clear they don't want them, simply dismiss them and continue to push. Petyr keeps Sansa in his custody under a false identity, effectively making him her guardian and keeping her completely dependent on him. Jorah tries to isolate Dany from other men in her life from Xaro to Barristan and Daario.

The main difference in Petyr is very vindictive, and works on the downfall of houses Stark and Tully over Cat's rejection and marriage while Jorah stays loyal to Daenerys and tries to seek her favor again. Neither man really takes accountability for the consequences of their actions.

Their fixations will ultimately prove to be their downfalls. Petyr underestimates the danger Sansa potentially poses to him as she is learning from him. Jorah in a desperate act, kidnaps Tyrion, and tries to go to Meereen to regain favor with Daenerys. He likely won't like the Ironborn suitor Victarion, and his actions will likely get himself killed.

[jackoshadows]

Earlier I had mentioned how ‘Arya’s’ marriage to Ramsay Bolton is the thread that connects all the plots in the North in ADwD and I could not help notice how it’s mentioned or is the driving force for what is happening in four different locations or about 70% of the North plot.

Reek I (Theon I) - We are first introduced to this wedding in the North in this chapter when Ramsay tells Reek that he is to be wed to Arya Stark and needs Reek to stick around in better conditions.

Davos III: Davos is brought before the Manderlys with the Freys and Lannister/Bolton spies in attendance. Lady Wylla Manderly sticks up for Lady Arya Stark by telling everyone what an absolutely rotten fellow Ramsay Bolton is.

Reek II (Theon II): Reek meets ‘Arya’ and understands what is happening. This is Jeyne Poole, not Arya Stark.

The Wayward Bride (Asha I): The Boltons send off the wedding invites. Over at Deepwood Motte, Asha Greyjoy gets one written in the blood of dead Ironborn. This is also where she learns that her brother Theon is alive.

Jon VI: An interesting parallel with Asha and Theon here when Jon also gets a wedding invite at the Wall and learns that his little sister Arya Stark is alive and to be married to Ramsay Bolton. A lot of soul searching and angst happens before he decides he can’t help.

Davos IV: Manderly reveals all and the North Remembers. Manderly and Robett Glover proclaim Ramsay evil by birth and blood and tell Davos they need Ned’s son, Rickon, to prevent the Boltons from claiming Winterfell through Ned’s daughter Arya. They promise to support Stannis if Davos gets them Rickon Stark and Shaggydog.

Melisandre I: The red priestess convinces the Lord Commander to send Mance and the spearwives to rescue Arya based on her visions of Arya fleeing her marriage and heading to the Wall.

Reek III (Theon III): The Boltons get news that Stannis has left the Wall, won Deepwood and is marching on them. They strategize and decide to wait at Winterfell because Roose is confident that the Northmen with Stannis will reach Winterfell come what may to save Arya Stark.

Jon VII: Jon prays for Arya and gets a letter from Stannis with a recap of all that’s happened, promising to do his best to save Arya and find a better match for her (Presumably after killing Ramsay). Jon makes plans to send Arya to Braavos

The Prince of Winterfell (Theon IV): The Wedding of ‘Arya Stark’, given in marriage by Theon Greyjoy to Ramsay Bolton. There’s a feast, lots of interesting dynamics and political games played between various houses. Roose is vary of Manderly and Abel the Bard is there with his ‘Die Hard’ mission to get a Stark maiden secretly out of Winterfell.

Jon VIII: Jon and Val discuss Mel’s visions in her fires. Jon hopes that her visions of Arya are true and that Arya gets to the Wall safely.

The Turncloak (Theon V): Lady Barbrey and Theon Turncloak discuss the intricacies of the alliances between the different houses and the impact of Lady Arya’s tears in galvanizing the North to unite against the Boltons.

The King’s Prize (Asha II): Asha is introduced to the bad-ass mountain clans marching with Stannis Baratheon, who make it clear that they are going to save Lady Arya Stark come what may, no matter that Winter has clearly come to the North. The Boltons were right about them.

Jon IX: Jon’s hopes are dashed when Mel’s visions of a girl in grey fleeing a marriage on a dying horse turns out to be Alys Karstark and not Arya Stark.

A Ghost in Winterfell (Theon VI): Stannis reaches Winterfell! Theon ponders on the uncertain loyalties of the lords who are only there at Winterfell because of Arya Stark. Mance’s Spearwives approach Theon.

Jon X: Jon compares Alys’ bravery to Arya and gives her in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenns, in a wedding that is clearly meant to contrast the darkness of ‘Arya’s marriage to Ramsay in Winterfell.  Melisandre warns Jon of ‘daggers in the dark’, a warning that Jon refutes because she was wrong about Alys being Arya.

Theon VII: The escape. The Spearwives approach Jeyne and tell her that they are taking her to her half-brother at the Wall, Lord Crow. Even as the Spearwives are trapped and possibly caught, Jeyne Poole and Theon Greyjoy jump the walls to freedom.

Jon XI: Jon walks the Wall, worried and concerned for Arya. He misses her and hopes that Mance succeeds in his mission and gets her home to him.

The Sacrifice (Asha III): While the king’s men and queen’s men complain about the march to Winterfell, the loss of life and lack of food and doubt if they can make it, the Northern army and mountain clans are adamant about taking Winterfell and saving Arya. Asha is then finally united with Theon (and Jeyne).

Jon XIII: The Pink Letter. Ramsay demands his bride back, along with Reek and Stannis’ family. Jon decides to go attack the Warden of the North with an army of Wildlings. This leads to mutiny, assassination and his death.

------------

And this is why GRRM considered Jeyne Poole essential to the story he was telling in the books. Without it, everything changes and story is now different on the TV show compared to the books or two different canons as GRRM puts it.

It’s incredible how Arya Stark is not even in Westeros and yet the entire plot in the North location in ADwD pivots around her marriage to Ramsay Bolton, in terms of House Stark politics in the North.

[akilahia]

I just like these expressions.

Perpetrator and Victim.

Wolf and Lamb.

He’s full of anger for being held captive his entire life, to lose his sense of identity and belonging. No one understands what he’s gone through, not his friend whose family held him hostage, or his sister whom he was kept away from for years. To the Stark children all they’ve known was his life with them, he wasn’t anything before that to them. For the Greyjoy’s the Theon they knew died when he was 9 and they hate what he’s become, seeing him as a Stark. He is seen as a Stark and a Greyjoy by opposing side, yet he is nothing. No one could understand, just because he wasn’t tortured or chained up while held captive. For years he knew at any moment they could(and would) kill him, no matter how kind and close they were. And they didn’t understand how that affected him. But he stepped out too far, causing too much harm.

The true wolf led him further down this violent path, and no matter how much Theon tried to prove himself as the brave and ruthless wolf. He ultimately was a lamb led to the slaughter.

A living butchery of agony.

Breaking, snapping, flaying. God.

With the flesh stripped away, his twisted identity became something worse. This thing was a nothing, with no purpose but to appease.

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with meek.

If he didn’t he’d lose more of who he once was, the body of Theon Greyjoy further being mushed and cracked into Reek. Broken in with pain and torture, but he didn’t want that anymore. He wants his fingers and toes and teeth and skin. If he is good Ramsay won’t take it. Ramsay is kind. So loving. So monstrous. So sadistic. What has done to Theon Greyjoy.

Reek, Reek, it rhymes with freak.

Theon is dead and stupid. He was naive and had no one left to love him. Everyone hated him for his betrayal or betrayed him. There was nothing left for Theon, making him ripe for the birth of Reek.

But it can’t be over for him god. Please no.

Like doomed Robb Stark, Theon Greyjoy also faces an inescapable fate. He must live. He has endured things worse than death but he must live. Jeyne must live.

Asha must see her brother, barely still alive in this terrified husk of himself twisted unnaturally and painfully. She must realize that when she refused to help, he had been left to this fate.

Poor Theon Greyjoy. Wicked Theon Greyjoy. That bitch Theon Greyjoy.

What he’s done is worthy of death, but what he’s endured is worse than that. Has he paid his debt tenfold? What of the millers sons, innocent whom he killed. What of Kyra, innocent whom he’d forced and hurt. Both of whom died guided by the hand of the man who flays and skins and lies of love. But ultimately Theon perpetrated their suffering. The suffering of the Miller’s wife.

But what of Jeyne Poole, scared and young. The love of one whom he once loved. The one he betrayed. They care for each other. He must ensure she lives. They both must, but her above all else.

Theon Greyjoy, how much fright have you known. Do you even know your hair turned white.

[iceywolf24]

Since Bran has been watching winterfell I think we may see him really tested in TWOW.

and her boy lying there broken, the sweetest of her children, the gentlest - Catelyn III AGOT

The Bastard himself was dead Bran learned that evening over supper. Ser Rodrik's men had caught him on Hornwood land doing something horrible (Bran wasn't quite sure what, but it seemed to be something you did without your clothes) and shot him down with arrows as he tried to ride away. They came too late for poor Lady Hornwood, though. After their wedding, the Bastard had locked her in a tower and neglected to feed her. Bran had heard men saying that when Ser Rodrik had smashed down the door he found her with her mouth all bloody and her fingers chewed off. - Bran V ACOK

"Some people hurt others just because they can," said Jojen.

"And it wasn't Theon who did the killing at Winterfell," said Meera. "Too many of the dead were ironmen." - Bran II ASOS

Bran has a gentle heart, but we know he's seen the vile things Ramsay has done through the heart tree.

Bran has already repressed what Jaime did but some of that anger is still there shown when he thinks about how he could "tear out the kingslayer's throat".

In Winds, we may see his gentle heart tested as we learn his thoughts about what Ramsay has done.

Seeing someone truly just torture and hurt people the way he does and enjoy it.

He has heard of it before with Lady Hornwood but to see it personally especially with what he's done with Theon and Jeyne who he's known his entire life, especially the later who has never harmed anyone.

Not to mention Beth, Old Nan, Palla, and the others being held in the dungeons, Bran yielded Winterfell to protect everyone only to see them being hunted like animals.

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one." - Bran II ASOS

Once outside the godswood the cold descended on him like a ravening wolf and caught him in its teeth. He lowered his head into the wind and made for the Great Hall, hastening after the long line of candles and torches. Ice crunched beneath his boots, and a sudden gust pushed back his hood, as if a ghost had plucked at him with frozen fingers, hungry to gaze upon his face.

Bran's love for his people bringing out a hatred in him.

Bran being Ice that burns away at the Boltons and Freys.

[dyannawynnedayne]

Round Three: Which Character Parallel Is Your Favorite?

Tyrion and Maelys: art by @mylestoyne (1, 2)

Theon and Jeyne: art by @perunikaart (1,2)

Tyrion and Maelys

Tyrion's Dream

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

Tyrion II, ADWD

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Theon and Jeyne

New names from their captor

"No," he said, "no, that was some other man, that was before you knew your name." His name was Reek. He had to remember that. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with leek.

ADWD, Reek II

She said the words. By this marriage Ramsay would be Lord of Winterfell. So long as Jeyne took care not to anger him, he should have no cause to harm her. Arya. Her name is Arya.

ADWD, The Prince of Winterfell

[daenystheedreamer]

stark succession crisis is so funny. robb dead. bran and rickon publicly dead. arya married to ramsay but that’s jeyne. sansa the only actual fully alive public facing stark but also she’s disappeared now. jon bastard and married to the wall. 

by laws of succession bran should be heir but only the mountain clansmen know he’s alive. northerners are trying to get rickon on the throne, dont know bran is alive, also trying to save fake arya. LSH, maege and galbart know jon was made robb’s heir. robb didnt know half his siblings were still alive. howland knows jon is a targ. stannis said he’d make jon lord of winterfell. petyr thinks sansa is heir. ramsay married fake arya and now theon is telling fake arya to keep up the pretence or stannis will just kill them both. jon will know fake arya is fake so where is real arya. real arya fucked off to braavos and due to trauma and cults is trying to induce dissociative identity disorder so really is anyone real arya. none of them know whos alive and whos dead. and benjen is also there maybe? 

[theghostofpyke]

i don't know if you still answer asks since you're in more of a art-over-meta after the deactivation debacle (i do miss all the meta though! i hope you'll feel comfortable enough to speak up more eventually.) , but what are your thoughts on theon durden? for lucidity that's a theory that theon is the ghost in Winterfell responsible for the deaths and is repressing it, or at least 'A' ghost (along with the spearwives and big walder). personally i think it's kind of ridiculous and was literally disproven but i've been doing a reread lately and some things aren't adding up, like the credibility of the lords, some throwaway lines, and the mummer's play idea where roose is in the role of theon in ACOK and theon now is reek ii, who was already up to some murders then. so, what are your thoughts on this? have a lovely day!

hi! i do still enjoy asoiaf talk and asks! (i've mostly been pretty busy),

as for the theory that a dissociated theon is the secret murderer in adwd winterfell...

the pros:

as you said, adwd winterfell calls back to theon's acok situation: an 'illegitimate' ruling winterfell, his hold slipping, an increasing number of his men mysteriously murdered. lest readers forgot over the span of four books, grrm even goes out of his way to remind us:

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

in acok, at least part of the murders are committed by ramsay, who is masquerading as reek. the fun parallel then would consist of reek, who is masquerading as theon, being a secret murderer, too.

adwd theon also calls back to acok arya: both are noble characters forced into a 'servant' position, made to serve roose bolton, both of them captives, torture survivors, eating vermin to survive starvation, moving as "ghosts" navigating sadistic abusers who constantly abuse them (and so on and so forth, i could go on).

again lest readers forgot over the span of several books, "the ghost of winterfell" will serve to remind us of "the ghost of harrenhal", and the threat in acok arya "he will cut off your feet" which plays such a plot-moving role (first terrorising arya and gendry into submission, then catalysing their escape) is recalled near verbatim by jeyne: "he doesn’t need to cut my feet off, I won’t try to run away, not ever".

the murders also call back to each other:

ryswell's man in adwd is "a drunk" who "pissed off the wall" then "slipped and fell" (they first assume) and broke his neck, whose face has been eaten off by grey jeyne* (*that specific dog, too! arya->jeyne, grey girl, etc). chiswyck, the rapist targeted by arya in acok, fell off a battlement, drunk, and broke his fool neck. mh! weese, (who parallels ramsay as local little sadist-bully), is eaten by his dog. hm! gelmarr, theon's man in acok, tumbled down some stairs and broke his back, rednose, a drunk, tries to drink less and takes a dog with him to protect him, yet dies. yellow dick in adwd is found with his dick cut off and stuffed into his mouth, while drennan is killed in acok with his breeches tangled around his feet. and squint was presumably eaten by direwolves.

well, there's only so many ways medieval people can get brutally murdered, i guess, but the sense of "hey, i read this one before" is certainly real and deliberate.

the thought then here essentially is: oh, in acok winterfell "reek" is causing murders and in acok harrenhall "the ghost of harrenhal" is causing murders, so wouldn't it be so poetic and beautiful and all of that if in adwd winterfell "reek" and "the ghost of winterfell" were in fact responsible for the murders?

which, sure, i can see the appeal, however:

the cons:

it is my opinion that parallels in asoiaf often serve to create an epic feel of cohesion across povs and subplots. multiple pov structures are not particularly unique in fantasy, but what makes asoiaf special is the extraordinarily high number of povs and the complexity of each, where even characters that aren't main characters, like catelyn or theon, or even third-tier characters like aeron, get complicated stories of their own. grrm once explained (i paraphrase from memory) that writing asoiaf is like writing multiple novels at once then finding a way to combine and balance them.

one way to bind these povs together, apart from the more challenging grind of wrangling the logistics and the plot of course, is using refrains, repetition, rhythm, little motifs played in variation across povs, callbacks, all of that. the sense created is that you are reading a mosaic of different tales that function near independently from each other and also form one coherent epic moving forward as one. very fun!

parallels can serve to tell us something about specific characters, yes, though not "character A is like character B", rather it's an invitation to pay attention to something: remember, you heard that one before! is this different now, if so, why? is this the same, what do you think? the aim here isn't always to connect two characters, it can serve to create a mood about the way or the state of the world.

it's also not foreshadowing: "if A parallels B, then to B will happen what happened to A". a lot of joy on the contrary comes from things being the same but different. same description, but used in a different context, but you remember it, so you enjoy it. same string of events, different outcome. same words, different meaning. same story different story, it's all connected, every individual counts-- the asoiaf mood.

well that was a lot of rambling only to make my point, which is that parallels do criss-cross adwd theon & acok arya & acok theon and none of this makes it appealing to imagine theon as secret assassin because "we already read this story twice so let's hear it again".

adwd theon is about theon's powerlessness and finding agency beyond this powerlessness, about theon as scapegoat for northern problems and desires which is tied to theon's lifelong role as hostage/sacrifice, about retribution as horror and questioning what theon 'deserves', (and so on).

if theon secretly had been able to act as avenger/warrior/killer all along that would imo break his adwd arc, undermine the whump of theon's bad state (barely able to hold his cup but he's doing all that), diminish the moving tale of finding his way back to action and the choices he makes: remembering his name, risking it all to help jeyne escape. it just wouldn't hit the same way had theon been crawling winterfell as avenger/brainwashed assassin for weeks beforehand. plus the need to explain how and why theon chose these particular victims. and i'm someone who is very excited in fic and daydream by an adwd/post-adwd theon that isn't all broken victim but also vengeful and causing problems. but this just doesn't appeal to me.

plus, grrm is quite decent at psychology, imo. characters make sense in how complicated they are. asoiaf plays with tropes including classic horror tropes, we have some dracula and some frankenstein and so on and so forth, so why not some jekyll and hyde, you might say. (that would be a pro i guess). but i want to believe that grrm wouldn't play it straight like that, and considering the way he writes extremely traumatised characters like tyrion or arya or dany or theon i want to trust him that he wouldn't then suddenly go: "ha! evil DID! bet you didn't see that coming, lol"

theon durden secret assassin theories pick up on the ways in which grrm writes theon's dissociated mind -- losing time, memory and perception and emotion being all jumbled, ambiguous encounters between psychosis and dissociation and reality, etc -- and instead of appreciating goes "oh this is a puzzle i must solve." no! just enjoy... this isn't to say that, should we ever get the next book, grrm won't use the pockets of time lost and fragmentation in theon's pov to fill them with additional knowledge that will shift our understanding of what happened (or tell us more about the hooded man). but it won't be a neat little personality split with a secretly skilled assassin hiding in theon's mind.

tldr; it's one of these theories so typical of asoiaf fandom in that they pick up on fun parallels and "cues" while dismissing character arcs and psychology. kind of like "wouldn't it be so poetic if arya killed jeyne" and all of these. playing with pattern recognition but uninterested in the characters themselves. not even enhancing the patterns... the theon-jeyne-arya & theon-roose-ramsay parallels are here anyway. this theory doesn't improve on them or add to them. it's just like, "ha! i noticed this!". not exciting, imo.

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

I fantasise about Ramsay's death a lot

I think Ramsay will be killed at some point during ASOIAF but I've been wondering how and what exactly we could get for the narrative of certain characters depending on the different outcomes and I am insomniac so I want to write something more or less useful so I can sleep or at least avoid intrusive thoughts.

So, here is a poll with possible outcomes for Ramsay's death, some of them I've read in meta posts, others are simply stuff I thought could be thematically coherent. Under the read more I added my own preferences because I'm feeling bold. You don't have to read those, but I would love it if you tell me some of yours. And you can tell me all you want about that? Is your answer motivated simply for shipping reasons? Simply for revenge? Do you think it will actually happen? I just like reading other people's thoughts.

My Preferences:

1. Killed off-screen by an unnamed lowborn

My personal favourite. I don't think Ramsay will get an off-screen death scene with an "irrelevant" character and I understand why but until it happens I get to fantasise and while I think for many this would be considered unsatisfying or anti-climactic, to me it would feel thematically coherent and beautiful.

Ramsay Bolton, the living nightmare, a monster from hell, killed by some rando. Someone who wouldn't make it down in history, someone who would be forgotten, someone who would be seen as disposable and irrelevant.

Through this we could have what is, in my opinion, the biggest offence ever directed at Ramsay AND a really sad and harrowing exploration of Theon and Jeyne's feelings on the matter.

Surprisingly, I was never feeling frightened by Euron as I read AFFC, the fear only settled when I read Aeron's preview chapter for TWOW. I was terrified (/pos) how could I not be? The eyes through which I witness all are tainted by terror during that chapter.

With Ramsay the more you think about how our perception of him is one conditioned by Theon's powerlessness, the less mighty he actually becomes. He is not a monster, he is a human like everyone else, he can be killed like everyone else and the concept of knocking him down from this idea he has built around himself, as a creature one should be frightened of, to have him become so irrelevant to the text that we don't even get to witness his death nor know anything about the killer because there is nothing that could be interesting or worthy of mention about that killer is wonderful to me. It makes Ramsay irrelevant and unworthy of mention.

And yet, I also think it would be very tragic for Theon without inflicting any sort of pain on him. Through ADWD he keeps fantasising about killing Ramsay and every single time he keeps himself from actually doing it because at this point Ramsay isn't a person for Theon, he is an omnipotent entity that builds and destroys. So, if he were to find out that Ramsay was easily subdued by someone with no name, no house, no military power, a no one, that could destroy his self esteem. It could lead into even more feelings of guilt and shame while ultimately proving that Ramsay isn't really all that.

I think people (me) often believe in what they like to believe and I would like to believe this is an actual possibility even if the more conscious side of my brain is thinking "Wtf are you on? GRRM is not gonna do that. Do you think he is stupid enough to be this anti-climactic about something everyone is eagerly waiting for since a decade? You think he wants to have people saying show!Ramsay's death was better than book!Ramsay's?" So, yeah I don't believe this will actually happen, I would love it if it did, it would be very meaningful to me, but I have no expectations and I understand how this is probably not something most people would enjoy.

2. Fed to his dogs by Barbrey

All the reasons I want him to be eaten by his gos (listed down in 4.) + my anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, Karen Queen Barbrey Dustin.

I have a horribly unpopular opinion about Ramsay's dogs that would get me cancelled for animal cruelty (/hj) and I have a lot of very personal feelings about this woman.

If she is supposed to be a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance (hot) then why would she be alright with letting the boy she thinks killed her surrogate son become Lord of Winterfell or even King in the North? She openly spits on Ramsay (hot) and even defies him through her conversations with Theon. The idea of her being a conspirator among the Manderlys and the Glovers isn't something I've been bought into yet because I still believe in her distaste for the Starks™ being real (hot), but I can't imagine she would feel any more tranquility at the idea of Ramsay turning into her liege lord, if anything I think she would be terrified because HAVE YOU NOT HEARD OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THE LAST NORTHERN AGEING WIDOW WHO RULED ON HER OWN WITH LANDS TO HER CLAIM AND NO APPARENT HEIRS????

"Me," said Ramsay. "Ramsay of House Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, heir to the Dreadfort.

To me, that sounds like the vague reminder of a threat.

We have also seen a few moments in which she not only makes her disdain for him public, but also defies him! Prohibiting him from entering into Barrow Hall, treating Theon with something similar to dignity (I know it's only mildly implied but if we ever get confirmation on her being the one who gave him the cloak he wears during A Ghost in Winterfell I will scream and cry ) and she also constantly refers to him as "Bastard" although he has been legitimised)

Also, while I believe she probably knows "Arya Bolton née Stark" is a fake, I doubt she knows it's Jeyne Poole and I also doubt she didn't feel at least some guilt over handing her to Ramsay.

When Jeyne is asking Theon to escape with her she mentions "They said he hurt you." Who said that? Who is they? Could Barb be one of them? Was she warning her? I think it's possible, but I know this is only me assuming things. I have no evidence for anything.

There would also be a lot of irony built around that considering Ramsay's comment on Reek |||:

"If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then?"

In a sense I also really love the idea of Ramsay's bones finding themselves in kennels (something Barb is already planning on doing to Ned's (hot)). If both of them find their resting place among the dogs, oh I would feel so much.

Before anyone starts believing I think Ned is as horrible as Ramsay, no I don't. Ned is honourable and just at his best and hypocritical and self-righteous at his worst. Ramsay is himself at his worst and Reek at his best.

The reason I would enjoy this wouldn't be out of thinking that Ned "deserves" that, it would be because Ned and Ramsay are the two people who have hurt this woman the most and also the two people who have deprived Theon of his designated life the most.

3. Public execution by a non-Northerner leader

This is the one I find the most probable to be honest.

Westeros' feudalism seems to be better for the common folk after the Targaryen conquest than they were prior to it. I really doubt GRRM will be willing to dissolve them and send them even further back into an even more inequalitarian feudalism. By having an outsider bring the Northerners their "justice" it would be easier to get them to wilfully decide to reintegrate themselves into the Seven Kingdoms, which is where the Davos-Rickon-Stannis plot will apparently go.

Stannis is already waiting for the battle of Winterfell and I have no idea whether he will win or not, but I think as of now killing the bastard is on his priority list. There is a possibility that he might not kill him immediately but just keeps him captive, and that could be very very fun. While I wouldn't want Theon & Ramsay to have to interact again, I understand how appealing this could be for so many of us. I don't really have anything against this, I just like the other two options mentioned above more.

Asha would be the only case I can think of in this option that could be motivated by more than political plotting or a sense of justice, but also because of personal feelings regarding Theon's trauma. If it were to happen, I doubt it would be a proper execution though, I can see this happening more on the battlefield. I think there could be some beauty in Ramsay "I-rape-girls-for-fun" Snow to find his demise at Asha and her suckling babe, a warrior woman who is also the sister of the man he has been humiliating (to say the least) for the past year. There could be some poetic justice in that. Politically it could also be fun to see the Northerners being confronted by having the Ironborn retaking Winterfell for them and the way their perception of the Iron Islanders could change because of it could be fun and maybe serve as a mirror to the way Asha & Aly have been developing mutual respect for each other. Anyway, here you can find art depicting her & Ramsay as David & Goliath and I love it.

Thematically I would love it if Daenerys would somehow manage to teleport to Winterfell and kill him and be confronted by two uncommon characters that share some similitudes to her past as a child of war & child bride and her actual cause (you can read about those similitudes in this post and this post), but I'm not delusional and I doubt Daenerys will reach the North before Ramsay has been killed so I don't believe it's very probable for them to meet. This is just me being self-indulgent because of the childish wish of wanting my favourite POV characters to interact.

4. Eaten by his dogs our of their own will

As said, I have that one opinion about his dogs and this could go well with it. A taste of his own medicine. Revenge from the deceased. Dog eats dog. Poetic in a sense; The spirits of the women he has raped and hunted and made to be reborn in the bodies of the weapons used against them to take part in the process of making other innocent women join them, finally break free and take revenge against their murderer.

Pretty much the same reasons as to why I like Barbrey feeding him to his dogs, but now there is something more mystique about it. Theon often refers to them as good dogs and it seems like their kennel master Ben Bones also feels fondness for them. Both of them consider the master to be the true monster there, and yet these are still no gentle creatures.

5. Killed by Theon

I feel very ambivalent on this one and most of my reluctance comes from not trusting GRRM's writing abilities to depict it in a way that I find compelling. I love revenge stories, but I rarely like their endings. I love revenge stories, I just rarely like the way they end. "When you go on a journey for revenge you dig two graves instead of one" Sometimes. Sometimes you also dig just one grave but have to spend the rest of your day laying next to the corpse of your never-ending anger and rage. I don't enjoy it a lot when achieving justice or revenge is portrayed in a purely happy light. It doesn't erase everything that has ever happened, it makes you feel unhappy because you know that no suffering inflicted on your abuser could possibly be enough to fulfil the void inside you. It isn't something, it is devastating. Good, now Theon killed him, he is gone, he will never hurt him again, now what? Now what? Is that supposed to be liberating? He is still perpetually changed and now he doesn't even have a target for all that pent-up rage and frustration to be directed at and (Can you tell I'm part of the minority that liked TLOU2 even more than TLOU? ), to me, the concept of adding Ramsay to the long lists of ghosts haunting Theon feels so harsh. I could enjoy it a lot!!! It's just that I doubt it would be written that way and the options mentioned above are more to my taste. I think that if Theon is the one that gets to kill Ramsay it will probably be portrayed in a more triumphant manner, maybe trying to convey Theon's complete rebirth and the deaths of Reek the Second (Ramsay) and Reek the Third (Theon at the Dreadfort) and, even though "Dead is dead. Better dead than Reek" is one of my favourite Theon moments ever, I don't really believe he should completely cast it aside.

"Reek, reek it rhymes with freak/weak/meek/etc." Sure! But also, were it not for Reek he'd probably not be alive. I don't know. I don't like the idea of him reappropriating that name like a minority would reappropriate a slur, but I don't think he should fully reject it either. In a sense, I believe the Reek persona allowed him to find some strange type of mental freedom in regards to "Theon" as a political pawn. Many of the conflicts he had to deal with during ACOK involving his cultural duality and his political standing disappear once he is conditioned into Reek (granted not in a healthy way) and I think that allowed him to develop into his own self more. I don't know If what I'm saying makes any sense. Not a favourite, but still something I could like. Personally, I would like it more if their last conversation was something completely mundane since I think that is very insulting to Ramsay, but it could be cool to have a final scene of them interacting in which Theon openly defies him and Ramsay is perplexed by realising he has been beaten by a creature "lower than a worm in human skin." Ramsay probably hasn't read his Shakespeare, GRRM has. Even a worm will turn.

Here, is the idea someone wrote for a scene emulating the confrontation between a slasher and the final girl and it was fun to read it.

6. Killed by Theon & Jeyne

I dislike it for similar reasons as to why I dislike Theon killing him, and I really don't like the idea of Jeyne being part of it, but I think there would be a lot of value in abuse victims coming together against their abuser and perhaps it would make their bond even stronger which would always be a perk to me because they are the relationship I care about the most in here and I just want them to be a supportive presence in each other's life. As said, I just like the idea of Theon/Jeyne never having to see Ramsay again. I think that is a slight to Ramsay.

7. Public execution by a Stark or a Stark loyalist

Depending on the Starkling doing the execution we could get a glimpse of affection for Theon and Jeyne, which I wouldn't like. Mostly because of personal issues with how the "friendships" between Theon-Jeyne and their respective Stark BFFs are something I interpret very differently to the fandom's common perception.

I also really want Theon to liberate himself from the "The Starks™ were your true family" motto, and the narrative portraying them through a purely heroic and victorious light would annoy me (I like all of the Stark kids as individuals, I just don't like the Starks™). Especially in Ramsay's case, I think it could easily be interpreted as the Starks™ being Theon & Jeyne's saviours.

I do understand how Ramsay, as part of House Bolton and the current Lord of Winterfell, isn't a villain designated to be solely attached to Theon & Jeyne. Politically he and Roose are the Starks' biggest opponents and threats, so I would understand it if GRRM still chooses to take this route (preferably through Jon or Arya) and could hopefully still find some enjoyment in it.

Something I think could be interesting but, similarly to the Daenerys example, is very far-fetched from actually happening, is if one of Lady Stoneheart's companions would be the one. Maybe Harwin. It could mix well with my favourite possibility.

8. Killed by supernatural force

My personal exception would maybe be one involving Bran. Out of the Starks and semi-Starks (Catelyn, Jon), his and Theon's relationship is the one I find the most interesting and it could be very emotional to see this little boy who was a victim of Theon's actions during ACOK be the one to smite Theon's tormentor. Years ago I saw this art depicting Bran and the Children of the forest warging into Ramsay's dogs and killing him while defending Theon & Jeyne and I still like the idea. The only real thing that would bother me in Ramsay dying at the hands of a supernatural force is that it acts as an opposite to my favourite option. If he is killed by someone inhumanely powerful, what does that say about him and his strength? Does that mean Theon's view of him as an all-seeing, all-hearing, all-knowing entity is not based on his own fear? Is Ramsay really such a monster he can only be brought down by another monster?

9. Killed by Jeyne

This one seems to be a fairly popular option, especially loved by Sansa fans and I understand why. There is a surprisingly big amour of art and memes and I can see the appeal but to me, it would feel very tragic which is why I like it the least. Jeyne is a character who has suffered so much while having very little involvement in the events that lead to that suffering. We only have limited information on Jeyne as a person and her role in the narrative is that of a vessel for other people's feelings (which is alright, we need secondary characters) and considering how she has been canonically appalled and repulsed by violence even before she was subjected to horrible acts of violence (being frantic about the Hound killing Mycah, having a meltdown at the tourney, being extremely distressed by the massacre at King's Landing), it would be very sad to witness her becoming a perpetrator of violence even if it would be justified. To me, it would feel like she has lost another part of herself to the trauma inflicted upon her by Ramsay. She has bled too much, I don't want her to have to stain herself in other's blood either.

I have come across other theories, but those are the ones (that I can group) that feel the most plausible to me. Roose or Mance killing Ramsay still deserve mentions of honour, but I don't have too many feelings about those. With Mance it could help bring Wildling and Northerners together and if it were Roose that would probably mean that Walda is withchild and that the Northern plot line might take longer than we all thought it would.

I don't fully oppose any of these options though! And I think there could be narrative value to all of them. As said, these are just personal opinions.

Anyway, I'm gonna go listen to Bob Dylan's Masters of War and mentally envision an amv feat. Theon and Catelyn.

[imaginarianisms]

indigenous westeros: the lords & ladies of the north.

eddard stark. the head of house stark, lord of winterfell & warden of the north & hand of the king to king robert i baratheon. father of robb, sansa, arya, bran & rickon stark. known as the quiet wolf, wielder of the valyrian steel sword ice. widely beloved in the north & known for his unwavering sense of honor & justice. executed on false charges of high treason in 299 AC.

roose bolton. the head of house bolton, lord of the dreadfort, lord of leeches & warden of the north. cold, cunning, remorseless & implacable, lord roose murdered robb stark the king in the north at the red wedding & plays with the minds of men & it's rumored that the leeches sucked all the passion, love, hate & grief long ago.

ramsay bolton. the bastard of bolton, the bastard of the dreadfort of lord roose's brood, he was born as ramsay snow & is highly resentful of his baseborn status yet considers himself a bolton & refers to himself proudly as the trueborn scion of house bolton & violently corrects those who refer to him otherwise. cruel, cunning, sly, greedy, vicious & a skilled manipulator, ramsay takes delight in torturing others, fond of the ancient custom of house bolton of flaying their enemies alive. has a group of men-at-arms that are just as depraved as ramsay called the bastard's boys & keeps a pack of female hunting hounds & a steed called blood.

barbrey dustin. ruling lady of barrowton, lady barbrey, while cunning, has grown into a bitter woman over the years, particularly with the starks. dresses all in black without gold or jewelry. she is distrustful of the maesters & refers to them as grey rats. was infatuated with lord brandon stark, the eldest son of lord rickard stark, she had an affair with him who took her maidenhead. one of the conspirators of the northern restoration in stark hands.

mors "crowfood" umber. mors umber, known as mors crowfood, is a member of house umber, the uncle of lord greatjon umber, and the joint castellan of last hearth with his younger brother, hother. Whilst sleeping by the side of a road, a crow had taken mors for dead and so it pecked out his eye. according to old nan, he grabbed the raven at its feet and bit its head off, earning him the nickname crowfood. his wife died in childbirth, his sons were killed during the battle of the trident in robert's rebellion and his only daughter was abducted in 270 AC by wildlings, leaving mors with a deep hatred of the free folk. mors is an old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. he wears a chunk of dragonglass in place of a lost eye or conceals the empty socket with a stained white leather eye patch. he wears a cloak made of a snow bear with its head as a hood. he helps stannis baratheon fight the boltons to retake winterfell, saving theon greyjoy & jeyne poole's lives in the process & is entirely aware that jeyne poole is not arya stark.

jeyne poole. a member of house poole, jeyne is the daughter of the steward of winterfell, vayon poole, and is the best friend of sansa stark. tragically, she is taken, trafficked and sold by petyr baelish to house bolton as a fake arya stark to support the bolton claim to winterfell and the north and endures unspeakable abuse and torture. with the help of theon greyjoy, they escape winterfell. stannis baratheon decides to send her to the wall to reunite with jon snow, tasking ser justin massey to bring jeyne to castle black with an escort of six men along with alysane mormont.

wyman manderly. the Lord of white harbor & the head of house manderly, warden of the white knife, shield of the faith, defender of the dispossessed, lord marshal of the mander, knight of the order of the green hand & a widower for the past eight years, wyman has two adult sons, ser wylis and ser wendel manderly, wyman is nearly sixty years old, is amiable and has a loud, booming laugh. he is mocked by his own people as lord lamprey, by his on admission and because of his physical appearance, wyman is seen by many as craven and foolish. this is a clever front, however, as wyman is shrewd, calculating and intelligent, and is staunchly loyal to house stark. one of the conspirators of the northern restoration in stark hands.

wylla manderly. one of lord wyman manderly's granddaughters, she dyes her hair a garish green & wears it in a braid, she has a thin high voice & is very brave. wylla reminded her grandfather & the lords of the north to remember their vows to king robb stark & goes on to tell of the promises of loyalty house manderly made to house stark when they were exiled from the reach centuries ago, in front of the freys.

howland reed. the lord of greywater watch & the head of house reed, holding dominion over the crannogmen of the neck. howland's children with his wife, jyana, are meera and jojen. howland reed is a close friend of lord eddard stark of winterfell & is one of the very few people living who know of jon snow's true heritage.

meera reed. lord howland reed's daughter, eldest child & heir of greywater watch, she is a fine hunter & fisher & was taught to fight with net & spear. meera was one of the few who escorted bran stark & his companions beyond the wall.

alysane mormont. known as aly & the she-bear, alysane is the second daughter of lady maege mormont, lady of bear island & is considered the heir to bear island after the murder of her elder sister dacey mormont during the red wedding. unwed, she is in her mid-twenties and has two children, the eldest a daughter of nine and the youngest a son of two. she joins king stannis baratheon's armies for the march on winterfell as a female warrior & shieldmaiden & is assigned as asha greyjoy's guard later promoted to "arya stark" (actually jeyne poole)'s companion to castle black.

sybelle glover. originally from house locke, sybelle glover is the wife of robett glover & the mother of gawen & erena glover & in the absence of the brothers galbart & robett, lady sybelle is the lady of deepwood motte; sybelle glover is a pious woman who often prays in deepwood motte's godwood. sybelle and her children are captured when deepwood is taken by the ironborn, where they are kept captive, until asha greyjoy brings sybelle and her children to ten towers on harlaw and then she returns to deepwood with asha, with her children remaining at ten towers with the harlaws. she is freed when the army of king stannis baratheon retakes deepwood motte and sends many glover men with king stannis to march on winterfell, including guides, trackers and hunters, ransoming six ironborn prisoners to tycho nestoris; lady sybelle glover is undoubtedly a force to be reckoned with & has an incredibly sharp mind.

alys karstark. a noblewoman of house karstark, she is the only daughter of rickard karstark, lord of karhold. her betrothed, daryn hornwood & two of her brothers, eddard & torrhen karstark, are killed at the battle in the whispering wood by ser jaime lannister. called a grey girl on a dying horse, riding to the wall to escape an arranged marriage, to avoid marrying her great uncle arnolf karstark, alys flees her cousin cregan karstark and seeks aid from jon snow at the wall. jon instead arranges for alys to marry signorn, magnar of thenn, thus creating a new noble northern-free folk house that would claim karhold should her brother harrion karstark perish.

lyanna mormont. the youngest daughter of lady maege mormont on bear island, she was named after lady lyanna stark & is fiercely loyal to house stark. when king stannis baratheon sends out letters demanding the northern lords bend the knee to him, it is lyanna who at only ten years, as lady of bear island, sends back a reply refuting his claim saying that house mormont will bend no knee unless it is to a stark.

wynafryd manderly. one of lord wyman manderly's granddaughters. as part of the terms of white harbor being pardoned and returning to the king's peace of tommen i baratheon, wynafryd is betrothed to the widowed rhaegar frey. when lord davos seaworth visits the merman's court, wylla proclaims that the freys killed lord eddard, lady catelyn, and king robb, and that house manderly should join stannis baratheon in the name of vengeance. wynafryd refers to her sister's exclamation as a child's foolishness. wynafryd pretends to be pleased with her betrothal to rhaegar. after faking the execution of davos and releasing him from imprisonment in the wolf's den, her scheming grandfather, lord wyman manderly, informs davos he had already revealed his plans to wynafryd and she knows the marriage will never take place. wynafryd's betrothal ends with the suspected death of rhaegar on his way to winterfell.

donella hornwood. the lady of hornwood, wife of lord halys hornwood and mother of daryn hornwood, originally from house manderly, she is a cousin of wyman manderly, lord of white harbor. on her return to hornwood from the harvest feast at winterfell, lady donella is seized by ramsay snow and forcibly married to him that night. lord manderly then seizes her castle to protect her holdings from the boltons. after the wedding, ramsay locks her in a tower and fails to feed her. she is eventually found dead, with blood around her mouth and her fingers chewed off. ramsay's actions leads to fighting in the hornwood between the boltons and the manderlys.

dacey mormont. the heir of house mormont, she is the daughter of lady maege mormont, lady of bear island, and the niece of jeor mormont, lord commander of the night's watch. at an age where girls would receive dolls, she was given a morningstar. she was a lanky woman who finds herself at ease in a lady's garb or leather armor, dacey was elegant in dress and dance. she was murdered at the red wedding.

jonelle cerwyn. daughter of medger cerwyn & sister of cley cerwyn, jonelle accompanied her father to winterfell until he went south to fight for king robb stark. after the deaths of her father & brother, jonelle has become the lady of castle cerwyn.

maege mormont. lady of bear island & head of house mormont, she inherited the title from her exiled nephew jorah mormont & the younger sister of jeor mormont, lord commander of the night's watch. stubborn, short-temptered and willful, she is dedicated to the old gods, and loyal to house stark. she has five daughters: her eldest and heir, dacey; and alysane, lyra, jorelle, and lyanna; she has no sons. no one knows who the father of maege's children is, or even if she ever married. there are rumors that she beds with a bear; her daughter, alysane, smilingly shares the same rumor, claiming that mormont women are skinchangers who turn into bears and find mates in the woods. nonetheless, all of maege's daughters carry the surname "mormont", and none appear to be considered bastards. it is possible that maege's husband came from a family of lower nobility than the mormonts, or no nobility at all, in which case a woman can prefer to retain her own surname for herself and for her children. rumored to be in the neck with howland reed & is aware of robb stark's will to crown jon snow as his heir & king of the north & possibly aware of jon snow's true heritage.

mance rayder. once a man of the night's watch before breaking his vows and abandoning his post. he has since become extremely influential among the free folk, and is called the "king-beyond-the-wall".

eddara tallhart. a girl of almost ten years old, eddara becomes the head of her house after the successive deaths of her older brother benfred at stony shore & of her father helman at the battle of duskendale. currently she is held captive by the ironmen at torrhen's square.

lyessa flint. lady of widow's watch, lady lyessa rules the most powerful branch of the extended flint family, mother of robin flint, one of robb stark's most trusted commanders. she excuses herself for not attending the harvest feast of winterfell given her advanced state of pregnancy and because widow's watch is at that time affected by a sickness.