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torchwood-99 · 4 months ago

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Can you please develop more on what in your opinion makes Éowyn originally doomed by the narrative? I agree with the idea, I'm just curious as to what traits or parts of her narrative makes her doomed according to you!

In her first scene, she comes across as almost spectral.

First time we see her, she's stood in the shadows behind a decaying old man and his creepy, snake like advisor. Her nickname, the White Lady, conjurs images of phantom "white ladies", which are staples of supernatural mythology, and are usually found in rural places, and are associated with tragic histories and unrequited/doomed love.

When she is dismissed, she leaves, she doesn't speak, but goes silently from the room, and she passes judgement on those she passes. She looks on Theoden with "cool pity", and recognises the power in Aragorn. A pale, voiceless, woman, dressed all in white, passing judgement on those before her, before silently gliding from the room, like a wraith or spirit.

To further reinforce the ghost like imager, she is cold; "thought her fair and cold, like a morning of pale spring that is not yet come into womanhood." She looks on Theoden after his recovery with neither joy or love but with "cool pity".

Whereas warmth usually holds connotations with life, the cold conjurs images of corpses and the grave. Even the use of "spring" in her description, a season associated with life, birth and new hope, is described as "pale". The combination of "spring" (life) and "pale" (death), conjures an image of something that is at once living and dead.

A lot of our view point characters look on her with unease. She is repeatedly described as "stern", and the only time that stern façade cracks is when she shows emotions that are discomforting for other characters.

Her hand shakes when she serves Aragorn the cup, and Aragorn senses her attraction and is deeply concerned about. The intensity of her desire, and Aragorn's unspoken unease, makes for an aura of discomfort and dread.

The only time Eowyn shows "life" is when she's trembling with passion for Aragorn, a passion unrequited, or when her eyes are sparkling with visions of war and death.

The first time her stern face truly cracks, and she lets the feelings show, is when she breaks down in tears, begging Aragorn to let her ride with him. She's either frozen or weeping.

Everyone who observes this is deeply distressed. They find it painful to watch a proud and stern woman break down in tears and beg, a sensation the reader shares with them.

Aragorn himself is deeply pained and troubled by his concern for Eowyn. 'Only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore.'

Aragorn later admits in the Houses of Healing that his concern for her haunted him after their parting, and that nothing caused him so much fear on the Paths of the Dead as his fear of what may come to her.

In the same chapter, Aragorn likens her to a lily. Lilies themselves have connotations of death, and also harken back to Elaine, the "lily maiden" who died of heartbreak after being forsaken by her love, Lancelot.

So Eowyn is a figure of death, despair and tragic love. She is white, cold, lily-like, and is looked on with grief by many who perceive her. And not just grief, but discomfort. They don't just notice her distress, but are distressed by her.

When Merry meets her, he notices she seems to have been weeping, an image that is uncomfortably at odds with her stern manner.

Even Theoden, who cannot be credited with being that tuned in to Eowyn's feelings, notices she is unhappy, asking her how she is, and commenting twice on her obvious distress.

When Merry meets her in her guise as Dernhelm, he shivers, because he feels he is looking at someone with neither hope nor will to live. Their journey to the Pelennor passes in silence. Eowyn is a solitary figure, cut off from all those around her, riding to her death.

This culminates in Eowyn laughing at the Witch King, who brings despair to all who face him, because at this point she has literally nothing to fear from him.

The scene in which she faces him is written as a death scene. She fights him valiantly, but his destruction seems to be her own, and the consequences of her apparent death (Eomer's reaction) are severe.

Her tragedy appears compounded when Theoden bids her farewell, unaware she was with him the entire time, which rather sums up his fond, yet blinkered attitude towards her. She gives her life defending the dignity of a man, who is only half-aware of her existence.

Eowyn is mourned. Eomer rages against the heavens at her passing, and the riders of Rohan speak of their regret that she followed them without knowing. She is carried alongside Theoden, and it is only Imrahil's sharp perception and respect for her beauty that causes him to notice she is still alive, taking them all, and us, by surprise. Up until this point, Eowyn has been doomed, and she seems to have met her doom, heroically so.

But there's still a spark of life in her, still a weak breath in her lungs, and that's enough for her to be saved, and taken to the Houses of Healing. It's just a faint sign of life, barely noticeable, but it's life, which means there's hope.

As we look into Eowyn's mindset, we begin to see why she is such a tragic figure.

The first time she is addressed by name, she is being sent from the room. Her orders to take charge of the people of Rohan, which should be something of an hour of triumph and honour for her, feels almost insulting, in how her uncle would rather throw his crown to the people to take for themselves, than name her as an heir after Eomer, and then forgets she is even a part of their house, until Hama reminds him.

Our final scene of Eowyn in Two Towers is of her as a solitary figure, left alone to guard an empty hall, watching as the men ride away beneath their sparkling spears, a striking contrast between the camaraderie and fellowship we witness between the men riding out together.

That Eowyn is loved and respected by many, as revealed by Hama and her ability to safely lead the people to Dunharrow, despite their reluctance, compounds the tragedy, because she is not entirely alone and overlooked, but the people she wishes to been seen by, the people she holds in esteem, Theoden and Aragorn, rejects. Theoden, unthinkingly, by forgetting her worth until it is spelled out for him, and Aragorn in being unable to accept her love, or her offer of service.

Eowyn's driving conflict, the one that seems central to her character, is not even with the villains who everyone else is banding together to fight. She is part of that fight against them, but her personal struggles stem just as much from her conflict with her own family, her own people and her own society, as they do with the threat of Mordor. Victory over the Mordor does not necessarily mean victory for her, we know for Eowyn to be spared her doom, she can't just be rescued from the enemy that everyone else is fighting. She is trapped, caged, and would rather ride out and die, than live to see herself fade.

“What do you fear, lady?" [Aragorn] asked. "A cage," [Éowyn] said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.”

That whole exchange between Aragorn and Eowyn reveals that above all else, beneath her stern facade and dreams of valour, Eowyn is absolutely seething. She is burning up with rage and frustration, and it is not just her enemies she is raging at, but her allies.

Her narrative starts to turn in the Houses of Healing. Not only is Aragorn able to bring her back to life, but it's clear that despite her unhappiness, Eomer's love for her is still a comfort and a source of happiness. When she wakes up, her first words are joy of seeing her brother there. For a character who until this point has been a figure of sorrow and loneliness, for her to speak so instinctively of joy at the presence of another is momentous.

This joy seems well justified, as not only do we witness the extent of Eomer's love, we also see a change in Eomer, and his perception of his sister.

Her sufferings, and the causes of her sufferings, are finally acknowledged. But they aren't acknowledged as some ephemeral, intangible thing, caused by a broken heart and some vague sense that she's just "doomed", but as the result of a set of specific circumstances that naturally caused her great feelings of despair and hopelessness. Eowyn isn't tragic because "she's Eowyn and she's doomed", but because of Grima's manipulation, and the constraints inflicted on her because of her sex.

That Gandalf compares Eomer's lot to Eowyn's, and points out to Eomer the freedoms and opportunities he had which she did not, further emphasises that it was Eowyn's circumstances that made her so tragic.

Eowyn wasn't "just doomed" and Eomer wasn't "just not doomed". Had their roles been reversed, Eomer could have ended up in similar straits.

Eomer hears this explanation, and a change occurs. He looks on Eowyn differently, and starts rethinking their whole lives together.

In the causes of her suffering being recognised, there is now some hope for her recovery. Her "ailment" has been "diagnosed", and it's much easier to find a "treatment" and a "cure", when there is a "diagnosis". There's a practical solution to Eowyn's suffering, and the person closes to her is brought one step nearer to seeing it.

Eowyn remains in the Houses of Healing, something she sees as frustrating, unnecessary and pointless. She doesn't want to live, she doesn't expect to heal, she thinks herself fit enough to ride and die, and that's what she wants to do.

Eowyn still sees herself as doomed by the narrative, but the narrative and the cast no longer see her as such. She is kept in the Houses, she is encouraged to rest and to heal, she is encouraged by Faramir to have hope, and gradually she starts to thaw.

She also becomes more gentle and vulnerable. Her youth is dwelled on, and her former concerns about living forever in a cage for a moment lapse as she focusses on a more trivial worry that Faramir thinks she's childish. When she scales down her request from permission to ride to battle, to be allowed to walk the gardens and look east, she speaks as a "maiden, young and sad."

In becoming more vulnerable, she becomes more approachable. She is no longer the ice maiden, a spectre, but a living person, with worries large and small, and Faramir is able to smile at her and offer her consolation.

The requests she makes during her "thawing", to look east and not be confined to her bed, signals a slight, perhaps unnoticed by her, return to hope. East is, as Faramir remarks, where their hopes lie. In looking east, she is looking towards hope. Furthermore, her second request, to not be confined to her bed, is something that Faramir can provide a practical solution for. She can have a chamber facing east, and she can have freedom to walk the gardens.

He almost speaks to her like a conciliator, or a negotiator. He talks her down from asking for death, to having a chamber looking east, and freedom to walk the gardens and take in the sun, in return to her agreeing to 'stay in this house in our care, lady, and take your rest," . That he phrases it gives the sense she has agency, he isn't saying "you will stay, and you will have a chamber that looks east, and you will walk in the sun", but instead he says if she agrees to stay, this is what they can do for her.

Therefore, the choice to stay, the choice to walk in the sun, the choice to heal, is put back into her hands, and in accepting Faramir's offer, she accepts the chance to heal.

Both Faramir and Aragorn are struck by pity when they meet Eowyn, but Aragorn's pity makes him hold her at arm's length. He maintains a distance between them, he turns from her and rides away. When he does try to "reason" with her, he only makes things worse, twisting the nail into Eowyn's frustrating circumstances.

Faramir feels pity for Eowyn, but he also feels kinship. She isn't some strange, removed creature. He doesn't look at her and see someone who is doomed. Nor does his treatment of her isolate her, as the treatment of so many others have.

He speaks of the pair of them as a unit, right from the start. He notes that both of them are "prisoners" of the healers, he tells her that both of them will be able to fight the end, if it comes to them, if they rest, and that the hours of waiting are something both of them must endure, and that both of them have passed through a shadow, and in from kinship, he expresses a belief that he might find comfort in her presence.

Eowyn's isolation and lack of agency are key causes in her despair, so it is understandable how this man, who makes efforts to understand her, to get to know, to befriend her and to make a connection with her, is such a balm, and manages to cause such a turn around in her arc.

Through her friendship, and later romance, with Faramir, she opens up, and arguably becomes more emotionally resilient, neither freezing her emotions, "cold and proud", or breaking down, weeping or begging. She shows uncertainty and fear in more moderate, casual ways, instead of pushing them down until they burst out of her.

However, she is still Eowyn. She is still proud (Faramir describes her as looking queenly), she is still proud, strong willed and sharp tongued. Even in her happiness, when she agrees to marry Faramir, she teases him for his people's snobbery, and she refuses the Warden's attempts to "release" her into Faramir's care, by instead asking to stay at the Houses of Healing.

She doesn't go from Ice Maiden to Fragile Flower. Instead, in grasping her future by the hands, in choosing for herself what she will do and where she will go, in deciding her own fate, her own role (that of healer), she shows that she is as strong willed as ever, and Faramir, who re-iterates twice; when speaking of his plans to marry her and go to Ithilien with her, that they will only do so if she is willing.

Eowyn also makes it clear to Faramir that while she will return to him, she has other duties and priorities that will keep her. That is, the rebuilding of the Mark. She has to go, she will come back. A striking contrast to her first introduction, when Eowyn is told "go", then told "stay", as it pleases those around her. She now has freedom of movement, she now chooses when to go, when to stay and when to return.

That Eowyn speaks of how she must go back, must look on her country and help her brother, also indicates that Eowyn sees her own worth and importance. She values herself and feels valued.

At Theoden's funeral/Eomer's coronation, Eowyn plays an integral role in the ceremonies. She presents Eomer with a golden cup and gives the signal for the cups to be raised to drink to the new king. This in itself indicates the esteem in which Eomer holds Eowyn. However, she has arguably been a cupbearer before, and it hasn't been a role that has brought her much joy. While it is a position of prestige, and shows she is a valued member of the household, it's not enough. Luckily, here, she isn't just there to oversee the celebrations of others, but to be celebrated herself.

Eomer ends the ceremonies by announcing her betrothal to Faramir. His justification for doing so is because of Theoden's love for Eowyn, which he uses to argue that Theoden wouldn't begrudge Eowyn's announcement being made at his funeral. He also notes how great the gathering before him is, greater than has ever been seen before. That Eomer wants to announce his sister's happy news before such an assembly, speaks of how much he wants to honour her.

Eomer certainly appears to have taken Gandalf's words on board. When he makes the announcement of Eowyn's betrothal, he says that Faramir asked for her hand, and Eowyn granted it, full willing.

He doesn't say anything about whether or not he gives his permission, (as her king and head of family, he probably was asked, but considering Eowyn and Faramir made their plans to wed with total confidence, you get the impression this was a matter of form, they were going to marry, Eomer disagreeing would be a complication, not a defeat), but instead emphasises how Eowyn has agreed to marry Faramir, full willing.

The final image we have of Eowyn can be a foil of that image of we have of her at the end of her first chapter in Two Towers. Once more, she is bidding farewell to a loved one as they depart Edoras. However, this time, she is embracing Merry before he leaves. She gives him a gift, that speaks of the bond of friendship that is now between them, and a remembrance of the time they rode together to battle, comrades in arms.

Compared to her formal parting from Theoden in Two Towers, this parting is full of warmth and intimacy. She and Eomer both hug Merry farewell, and when Merry leaves, Eowyn is left with both Eomer and Faramir, the two people she loves best, Faramir himself putting off his own duties in Gondor, to be near to Eowyn as she does her duty in Rohan.

Even the parting of Eowyn, Eomer and Merry, which could be a sad thing, is softened with Tolkien concluding "and so they parted for that time".

Their parting isn't forever, it's just for the moment. They will see each other again. Compared to the jarring juxtaposition of the brotherly army riding out, to Eowyn left alone to guard an empty hall, which created a sense of dread and foreboding, the final lines here at this parting fill us with warmth, with them all embracing, and leaves us with a promise that this parting isn't forever, and that the friends will all be reunited soon.

So, to summarise, Eowyn at first appears "doomed by the narrative." She is cold, stern, ghost like, and carries an aura of tragedy and dread.

Her doom she seems to carry through to fruition, and she is mourned accordingly, but the smallest spark of life remains in her, and in the causes of her despair being acknowledged, in the people in her life reaching out to her, making an effort to understand her, and in her and those around her making practical changes, the characters actively defy the narrative that has apparently doomed her, and together, through their combined efforts, Eowyn escapes her fate

Eowyn feels hopeless and trapped, and the people around her struggle to relate, and in fact many of them contribute; some un-knowingly, some knowingly (fucking Grima), to her depression. It first looks like a force greater than herself (the narrative) is causing her despair, and it cannot be overcome, but will instead lead to her destruction.

But actually, there is hope, and there are practical measures that can be put into place, to help her overcome her despair. Medical treatment, a support network, and a greater understanding from herself and from others of what she is going through, enable her to defy the narrative and find happiness.

#LOTR #Lord of the Rings #Eowyn #Eomer #Faramir #Aragorn #Merry Brandybuck #Theoden #Gandalf #this got long #Tolkien Meta Week

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maenefa · 10 days ago

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So I’m thinking more about Peter Jackson and his inexplicable hatred for Gondor… I have never figured out why he (or more specifically Philippa Boyens) put this “Virgin Gondor, Chad Rohan” dynamic in the films.

It’s not just that they demonize Denethor, they also sanitize everything dubious about Theoden…

Remember the poignant funeral scene where Theoden weeps for his son and says “no parent should have to bury their child”? That was invented for the movie! Theoden never really mourns his son in the book. It’s actually quite odd and disturbing, the lack of emotion he shows. I don’t even know what Tolkien was trying to imply there.

Denethor is the one who grieves inconsolably for his sons in the book. But the movie downplays the heartbreaking, sincere nature of Denethor’s grief for Faramir. And his grief for Boromir is depicted as something harmful and self-indulgent.

We are supposed to admire movie Theoden for overcoming his terrible grief and choosing to keep fighting (unlike crazy evil Denethor) but in the book he doesn’t grieve openly at all! He shows some grief when he hears about Boromir’s death, but he is weirdly silent about his son Theodred.

Then there’s the Wormtongue issue. In the movie, Theoden is literally possessed by Saruman, which suggests that he is merely an innocent victim of Wormtongue. But in the book it’s unclear if there is actual magic involved: Theoden has chosen to listen to a bad advisor, and he bears some responsibility for trusting Wormtongue and ignoring Eomer. Book Theoden gets an actual redemption arc; movie Theoden hasn’t even done anything wrong!

Another thing that is BURNING ME UP after my latest re-read of LotR:

The infamous tomato scene.

We never actually see Denethor eating in the book. However, Denethor makes sure that Pippin and Faramir have food and wine during their meetings with him. Like… according to the fandom Denethor is supposed to be the Most Abusive Dad Ever, but after Faramir’s traumatic escape from the Ringwraiths he gets Faramir next to a warm fire and gives him wine and bread before he asks him any questions. Yeah, they have a nasty argument and say some hurtful things to each other, but their fight is bracketed with these quiet expressions of Denethor caring about Faramir.

The sheer perversity of turning Denethor, who sleeps in his armor so he doesn’t get soft—but makes sure that his guests are taken care of!—into a selfish glutton in a fur-trimmed robe who gobbles roast chicken and slurps wine in front of Pippin while he is sending Faramir on a suicide mission… um… yeah. I can’t be normal about this.

#denethor #tolkien #lotr #theoden #denethor defense

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novelmonger · 5 months ago

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I wasn't expecting it to take this long, but after a million distractions, I'm back to going through the LotR audio commentaries and taking note of any interesting tidbits I haven't heard before.

Please enjoy my notes on the RotK design team commentary with Richard Taylor, Tania Rodger, Grant Major, Alan Lee, John Howe, Dan Hennah, and Chris Hennah:

They had to make Deagol's ears out of waterproof gelatin rather than latex because he was going to fall in the water, and the normal latex ears would have come off. I guess they must have done the same any other time a Hobbit got submerged, but they didn't say that.

The fish that Gollum eats at the beginning is made from some kind of edible gelatin so he could actually bite into it. They also had another prop fish that wasn't edible that they gave Andy Serkis to keep at the end XD

The little stone hollow thing where Frodo and Sam are sleeping for their first scene in the movie was a set they built with a removable back wall so they could get a camera in to shoot it from the back as well as the front. Why did I never think of that before?

There were a couple of extra shots they needed of Orthanc in the background to finish up the movie, but they hadn't managed to get the footage from the miniatures (and I guess the miniatures were gone by that point? idk). So they took one of the model collectibles Weta had made and took some photos of it out in the parking lot XD

Whoooooaaaa! Okay, so Alan Lee talks about how, in legends, they say that you have to kill a wizard three times for him to stay dead. And Saruman dies "three times" - first he's stabbed, then he's impaled, then he's drowned. So Saruman is dead dead. Dare I say it? This is...I think this is a better death than the one in the book ._.

They even put carvings on the crossbeams underneath the seats of the chairs in Edoras! You are never ever going to see them, but that was their dedication to making everything feel authentic. That's what sets this apart from so many fantasy movies and shows made these days.

Red in the costumes is meant to suggest royalty. That's why Aragorn, Boromir, Theoden, and Theodred all have red in their costumes - as well as Bilbo and Frodo! You're meant to look at someone wearing red and unconsciously think, "there's something regal about them."

John Howe points out that you probably wouldn't ever reforge a sword like they do with Narsil, at least not in the sense of putting the pieces back together, because it wouldn't be as strong as it was originally. (You could melt it down and start over again, of course.) But, he reminds us, these are the Elves, and it's more of a symbolic thing anyway.

The great hall in Minas Tirith was inspired by Charlemagne's chapel (and Byzantine architecture was one of the main influences on the design of Gondor in general).

The statue of the king in Ithilien was made out of polystyrene, which you would think would be pretty light, but it was so huge it was actually very heavy. They had to transport it to the location in three pieces: the base, the body, and the head. And to lift one on top of each other, they had to rig a sort of pulley system over the limb of a tree, using a four-wheel drive truck to pull it. But they discovered that the first truck wasn't getting enough traction, so they hooked a second truck up to it, and ended up pulling the first truck up into the air along with the statue!

They created fourteen new weapons just to put in the background of the armory in the scene where the Witch-King is getting ready for battle @_@

John Howe said that his inspiration for Minas Morgul was...getting his wisdom teeth pulled??? He describes a metal clamp digging into the perfectly healthy enamel of his tooth to pull it out, and draws a parallel to the metal pieces the orcs fitted to the top of the pristine white parapets, staining and violating them. Um...thanks, I could've done without that visual, John.

I can't believe I never thought about this before, but there's a little wooden roof over the pile of wood for the beacon that Pippin lights. The reasoning behind that is you need some kind of cover to keep the wood more or less dry for when it needs to be lit in an emergency. The beacon will burn away the wooden roof, but it can be replaced easily enough, and it's worth it to be able to quickly light the beacon.

A lot of the saddles they used were ordered from the Indian military, because they had a good, old-fashioned sort of look to them. Then they would add onto the saddles with things that would make them look distinctly Rohirric, rather than Indian.

Alan Lee's daughter worked on some of the figures in the doors of Minas Tirith!

John Howe goes off on this whole tangent about how there's no religion or religious structures in Middle-Earth, and why that might be, but the whole time I was just sitting there going, "...have you never read The Silmarillion????"

Because they had to make over a hundred suits of Gondorian armor, other than the hero suits, they couldn't make each one exactly the right size for the man who would wear it, so the casting department had to only get actors within a certain range of size. They also built the suits of armor with sliding pieces, so they could be somewhat fitted to different sizes.

The horses started out as being part of the art department's responsibility, but as time went on, there were just so many horses they had to keep track of (and the various liveries they would have to be fitted out with) that they had to make a separate horse department to oversee it all.

Because so much of the movie was filmed on-location, in some very remote locations, they had to make a sort of caravan of mobile repair stations that they could take with them. They had all the tools and crew necessary on hand wherever they went so they could repair broken props or ripped costumes, reapply makeup for gore and injuries, take nicks out of the edge of weapons.... It was really like moving an army around!

For the dream where the Evenstar breaks, they made a version of it that was five times bigger than normal, out of a very brittle resin. Then they made an oversized section of the floor and dropped it from a great height so it would completely shatter in a dramatic way like that.

Anduril was John Howe's design. He based it on a sword belonging to a friend of his in Germany, which to him is the ideal sword, the most beautiful sword. He also talked a bit about how Men were taller and bigger in the First and Second Ages, so their swords would have been longer.

John Howe: "Why do people criticize Tolkien for not developing his characters sufficiently? I cannot fathom that kind of criticism. I think it's done by people who don't read between the lines."

Richard Taylor said they had a lot of fun gathering up all the skulls after each take in the Paths of the Dead to put back up at the top so they could be poured down again. Apparently Viggo liked to gather them up and try to throw them at the crew members! "Many hours of skullduggery was to be had," as Richard put it XD

Apparently, they'd made dozens of really finely detailed silicone heads to be lobbed over the wall of Minas Tirith, but then all but one of them were stolen! So they had to quickly put together some crude latex ones to use in the shoot instead (one of which the mayor of Wellington threw). They didn't talk about this, but I'm assuming the one good head that was left is the one that gets a close-up. You have to wonder who out there was sitting around with a bunch of highly realistic latex severed heads in his basement or something....

While most of the siege towers are miniatures or CG, they built the top third of one and put it on tracks so they could move it up against the wall. They built the set with breakable ramparts for when the little drawbridge thing crashes down.

They had the same trouble in Minas Tirith that they did in Helm's Deep, with the battering ram being too heavy for the stunties to lift. But they never actually explained how they got around that problem, if it was the same solution or not :/ All they said was that they had replaceable panels in the doors, in case they were damaged by the battering ram.

In order to make Shelob's webs, they had to heat up two polymers and mix them together to make the stringy, sticky material. In order to mix them, they had to be heated up to 220 degrees C, but if they got up to 228 degrees, they would burst into flame @_@ After they were heated and mixed, they would dribble the mixture on top of a vat of water, where it would cool in spiderweb-like shapes. Then they would lift it out on a frame, and they could carefully place it on the set. One time, the polymers did burst into flame, and they were running out of fire extinguishers to put it out! O.O Eventually, they did call the fire department, who said they'd done everything the fire department would have done. They got the fire put out, but it was a nerve-wracking moment, because the room where they were making the webs was connected to the studio, so it could have been disastrous D:

Bernard Shaw apparently got the idea to do that whole bit where he knocks his sword against the row of spears when he saw the collection of spears all lined up in a row in the art department.

The "oil" that Denethor pours over himself and Faramir is a mixture of glycerin and water. (I always wonder about these things, so I'm really glad they mentioned it.)

When they were filming the pyre scene, they had a silicone dummy for Faramir on the burning pyre. Apparently somebody on the crew brought "David Wenham" a cup of coffee over because they thought he'd fallen asleep on the side of the set, only to discover that it was a dummy! XD

The horse rig they made for close-up work of people on horseback got affectionately nicknamed "the Phony Pony." The first day they brought it on set, Peter Jackson got up on it and "rode" the horse, making the whole crew laugh XD

One of the ideas that Peter Jackson came up with for the mumakil in a brainstorming session (which Richard Taylor says he's still not sure if PJ was serious about or not) was that they could suck up several riders in its trunk and then fire them out like bullets. I'm...really glad they didn't go with that, whether PJ was serious or not <_<

Alan Lee says that the first time he saw the dead mumakil that Weta made for the set, the body was hollow, and some of the crew had set up a TV inside it and were watching a rugby game XD

The last miniature they built for LotR was the Minas Tirith docks where the Corsair ships come in. It kept getting put off until almost the end of the shoot, so they only had five days to put it together! @_@

All of the dead horses are fake, of course, so Weta had to make them all. They were made of lightweight material, so each day you'd see the set dressers just kind of casually carrying in a whole dead horse and then picking one up from the battlefield afterwards like it's no big deal. They had to do a lot of repairs to the dead horses, because the legs and ears kept falling off or getting bent the wrong way XD

The stone Watchers in Cirith Ungol have Maori influence in their design. I wish they'd talked about that in more detail, but it was just mentioned in passing.

They were concerned about the various copies of the One Ring being stolen, so they kept it in a lunchbox that was labeled "Screws."

The scene where Frodo and Sam join the orc convoy was filmed on location up on a mountain, so they had to deal with a whole bunch of extras in extensive prosthetics and armor, which would make them sweat while they were moving around, but then when the camera wasn't rolling, it would be a challenge to keep them warm. The way they did most of the orcs was that they wore a rubber mask and then a helmet, and they would need to take them off at regular intervals so the actors could get some air. So in between takes, after the director called, "Cut!" there would also be a cry of, "Heads off!" That meant the dressers would have to rush into the crowd and quickly take off the extras' helmets and masks XD

Because the crew was committed to not damaging any of the flora and fauna in the places where they were filming, even in the location that became the plains of Mordor that Frodo and Sam struggle across, there were little flowers and moss that they wanted to protect (and it was a national park). So they would lay down carpets on the ground for people to walk on, so they wouldn't damage the plant life. I'm sure that made for a strange sight, Frodo and Sam struggling in tattered clothing over rocks and boulders, surrounded by perfectly ordinary rugs XD

To do the decapitation of the Mouth of Sauron, they had a headless dummy sitting there, and Viggo would swipe his sword where the head should be. Then Weta Digital put in the head afterwards.

The lava in Mount Doom was mostly a miniature (except for the set where Sean and Elijah did their part), made from methyl cellulose and other things to make it look like lava. They set it up on a table that they would tilt so it would flow down around the model boulders made from urethane.

Richard Taylor said that, at that time, no one had really done a very good CG bird, so he was especially pleased at how the eagles turned out.

There were about 400 people working in the art department total, and most of them had never worked in the film industry before! @_@

Ngila Dickson's philosophy for the Elves was that none of their "crowns" or headpieces would go upwards, but would fit close around their heads and then go down. That's one of those things I've subconsciously noticed all these years, but never really thought about before.

Apparently, a little bit of the graphite used on Aragorn's armor in the coronation scene kind of puffed out when he and Arwen go in for their kiss, and got on Arwen's dress D: And some well-meaning person tried to rub it off, but only succeeded in spreading it around further, thus ruining the dress. And most of the female characters only had one copy of each costume, because all except for Eowyn don't see battle and thus don't need different versions with varying amounts of wear and tear. They're just made to wear in one or two scenes of them looking pretty and walking through a room. But alas, that lovely green dress was ruined.

They didn't have much time with Sir Ian Holm, so they only had a week to get a mold of his face and make the old-age prosthetics for the Grey Havens. But then word came down that he didn't want to have prosthetics, so they were to just make him look old with makeup. They were really disappointed, but then on the day, Ian Holm saw the prosthetics sitting off in the corner and asked what it was. When they explained, he said it wasn't true, and insisted on them putting the prosthetics on instead.

One thing that was really impressed upon me during this whole commentary (over all three movies) was just how much love and joy all of the crew had for the project. Sometimes you watch a movie or read a book that really means a lot to you, that's changed your life, and you wonder if the people who made it fully grasp what a beautiful thing they've created. These people know. They were fully aware, from start to finish, that they were making something truly great and worthy of praise. And I think that's beautiful.

#lord of the rings #lotr #return of the king

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cottoncandiescupcakes · 4 months ago

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I'll be honest to TROP haters that say it changed too much of the material I mean YES you are right but so did Peter Jackson

I mean Arwen's fate being tied to the ring? Arwen saving Frodo instead of Glorfindel, a very important elf who actually slayed a Balrog, who wasn't in the movie at all. Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and Old Man Willow also weren't in it

Also Tolkien would not be happy with Gimli's fairly undignified treatment at times and also, Legolas' 'orc counter',

Legolas would never happily kill he'd do it to save his friends and for Middle Earth obviously but he's not going around treating killing orcs like a kind of action game having fun doing it

Also for some reason he made Thranduil almost a kind of villainous character though he does redeem himself(and looks fabulous doing it) and I do love this character but it's not very accurate to Tolkien's thoughts on this character which was literally just a typical elf king who mistrusted dwarves and rightfully imprisoned a bunch of dwarves sneaking into his woods

Other things Peter Jackson did he made Denethor WAY more evil than in the books. In the books he's basically a broken, grieving very old man who has lost it versus a 50-60 or something year old man just ranting and raving on everyone going crazy

Another thing Peter Jackson did was make the evil characters like Saruman and Grima way more obviously evil than the book ones so you could instantly tell they were evil, which, the point was they decieved people. That Grima decieves no one lol.

So he changed a LOT of things about the characters, for example Aragorn looks like, you know he's going to be heroic from the start just because of Viggo's bearing but he's meant to be almost unattractive and scary looking at first, then slowly becomes like a king and noble and handsome looking. Like, Pippin literally says he looks foul LMAO I am serious. Boromir is meant to be the perfect gallant hero looking one who almost falls to temptation where Aragorn is meant to look very rough but have a noble heart, they are like foils

I love those movies but he also did change a lot but especially, PJ's work glorifies war too much for Tolkien's standpoint, not always but there are scenes he's making it too action-y while other scenes, like Boromir and Theoden's deaths, are perfect

Also BOTH these works make the elves too serious, like, the books have the elves singing, playing tricks and carrying harps and flutes around and acting more like Medieval fairy ring style elves at times along with being more serious also, they had both sides to them while adaptations just make them very dignified

I know Gil-Galad misses his harp guys HE WAS ALREADY SINGING. Free him

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nerdvixen · 2 years ago

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So, Tumblr is excited about the Ides of March, because that's when Caesar got stabbed a fair number of times in the Senate.

However, it's also the morning when dawn rises over the crest of the battlefield to show Gondor that the Riders of Rohan have come and the violin goes wild and Theoden gives a truly great speech and then they fight their way down the hill all while screaming "DEATH!!!" at the top of their damn lungs and I'm crying just thinking about it? Because it's arguably the best scene ever to come from The Lord of the Rings and therefore, all of cinema?

Happy March 15th to Peter Jackson and happy Ides to Elon Musk, for no reason at all.

#lord of the rings #lotr #tolkien #ides of march #julius caesar

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stars-n-spice · 7 months ago

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Recently had a LOTR/The Hobbit marathon with the siblings so have TBB watching LOTR/The Hobbit headcanons:

Once or twice a year they'll sit down and have these marathons - usually while also eating a big Hobbit-styled meal

First started with Echo wanting to show Omega the movies and while they were watching them together, the rest of the Batch came to sit and watch too

Crosshair at first was like "Tch. Nerds, you like this shit?" and then Aragorn popped onto the screen and suddenly Crosshair was very invested (in the plot, of course)

Wrecker enjoys it for the action and thinks the Elves are cool while Hunter watches it because they all watch it and he doesn't want to be left out (he has no idea what's going on but Tech keeps him informed and updated)

Crosshair has a crush on Aragorn while Wrecker has a crush on Lady Arwen

Hunter attempted to bleach his hair ONCE because Legolas inspired him (it did not go well)

Crosshair took up archery because of Legolas and is very good at it

Tech: "Did you know in this scene, Viggo-"

Omega always quotes the "I am no man" scene before immediately attacking the nearest brother to her with a pillow

Hunter will also quote the war speeches Theoden and Aragorn give before riding out into battle and only Omega and Wrecker find it entertaining (they'll scream "DEAAATHH!!" after him)

Echo and Tech are the only ones who've read the books (Omega is in the process but it's a struggle)

Crosshair totally does not get emotional over Faramir and Boromir - oh no definitely no he doesn't cry when Faramir asks his dad if he'd rather he died over Boromir

Actually they are all emotional over Boromir's death

Also for that matter, Crosshair totally does not get super emotional over Samwise and how utterly loyal he is to Frodo - nope definitely not!

They play "take a shot every time Pippin fucks up something" while watching

Every time there's an Orc on the screen they'll point at each other and go "That's you." or "Wow, I can't believe you're in this movie too."

Y'know that scene in Helm's Deep when Aragorn comes through the door?? Yeah. Crosshair nearly fainted.

Gollum freaks Wrecker the fuck out and Crosshair revels in this fact because he can do the voice

When Omega saw the Hobbit for the first time she was so upset about Killi dying that she didn't talk to Tech and Echo for a few days because she was like, "Why would you make me watch this?? >:'( That was so sad!!"

for that matter Wrecker was also crying when Killi died and then Bilbo's reaction to Thorin's death had all of them crying/tearing up

Crosshair hates watching the Hobbit because everyone always brings up how much him and Bilbo are alike (in terms of sass)

Though that one scene in BotFA where Bilbo is showing Thorin the acorn and talking about planting it, the first time Crosshair saw that and saw how Thorin was looking at Bilbo the man fucking melted and now holds all potential partners to that standard (and to Aragorn)

Tech: "Well, now that we've finished watching the entire series, who wants to watch the extended cut?" - "THERE'S MORE!?!"

Feel free to add on!

#love these movies #can only watch them like twice a year though #because once i watch one i have to watch the rest of them #and they're so fucking long #but i love them #more specifically i love aragorn #i'm going to fight crosshair for him #tbb #the bad batch #tbb headcanons #clone force 99 #tbb hunter #tbb echo #tbb wrecker #tbb tech #tbb crosshair #tbb omega #lotr #the hobbit

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lazywitchling · 4 months ago

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“So much death. What can men do against such reckless hate?”

(Yes I did just order a pot pie from the chicken fast food place. I’m watching 12 hours of movies, I ain’t cooking a whole pot pie!)

Okay. Look.

When I was younger, my cousin bitched about elves at Helm’s Deep not being in the book, but I didn’t think it mattered because it’s cool and I liked elves and it made me the fun kind of sad when Haldir died.

But now I get why. (I mean, ultimately it’s a fictional story so it doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of life, blah blah, you get the drill. I will complain about this, but I don’t care if you like it, ya dig?)

So here’s the thing. Theoden’s whole storyline throughout this movie and into the next is that he does not believe anyone will help him. Gondor could have come to save his people, but they didn’t. Rohan was left on its own, and people died, and that sucks. So Theoden has succumbed to the depressive thoughts of “We’re all gonna die anyway, why bother fighting?” (Hey that’s a major— actually THE major point of this whole story!!) He has hidden his people away to hide because he knows fighting is futile because they will be alone.

It’s a big deal when he agrees to go out and fight alongside Aragorn as the Uruks are about to overwhelm the keep. I said last year, Tolkien’s brand of hope is the difference between “I only have one hit point left :(“ and “I still have one hit point left >:)” Theoden STILL has no reason to believe help is coming, but he chooses to act like it is anyway, because the alternative is just curling up and dying right there. And he is rewarded, because Gandalf shows up with reinforcements!! Eomer, who has every reason to hate Theoden, brought all the riders to help! Everyone is saved! Hooray!!

But the damn elves show up in the middle of Theoden’s “Aw nobody will help us :(“ thing. And then elf help arrives. And he goes “Yay, help is here!!” And then nobody really mentions the elves again except for Haldir’s brief dying scene, and Theoden is right back in his “Aw nobody will help us :(“ thing. It just slaughters the pacing of the story, and Theoden’s arc along with it.

Furthermore, the elves say they were sent by Elrond, who has chosen to have the elves fight alongside mortals once again to honor old alliances! Except that Elrond isn’t really participating in this portion of his own character arc, and in fact doesn’t reach that “idk maybe mortals aren’t so bad after all” point until RotK. So it’s somehow fully out of character for him at this point even though he’s not even there.

ADDITIONALLY, it fucks up ARWEN’S story, because the whole thing with her is that she has to choose between sailing to the undying lands and being with her people forever but losing Aragorn, or staying with Aragorn who will eventually die and then she has no one left and no way to get to the undying lands and will never see her family again and will just live until the heat death of the universe. See, I’m pretty sure (don’t quote me on this) that there’s like… a respawn thing that happens with Tolkiens elves. They’re not only ageless, they’re unkillable. They CANT die. That’s why Arwen’s choice is so difficult. She couldn’t even live out life with him and then jump off a bridge after he dies so she doesn’t have to see the heat death of the universe. She’s literally stuck.

But friggin Haldir takes a sword to the head and has a sad death moment, and then I’m left wondering why everyone is pestering Arwen so much. If elves can die, then she has no problem.

I’m pretty sure it messes up other storylines too, but my pot pie is getting cold.

#hobbit day 2k24 #hobbit day menu

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crocodilejames · 1 year ago

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Dude fuck LOTR is so good. Like. The friendship. The love. Holy shit I can’t believe it took me until I was nearly TWENTY ONE to watch these fuckin movies.

“I have wished you joy since first I saw you.”

Theoden’s death scene.

What the fuck oh my god so good

#lotr #lotr spoilers #spoilers #movies #fantasy

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pearlyarmor · 1 month ago

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Ok, just watched War of the Rohirrim and have a LOT of thoughts (positive and negative). Warning for spoilers throughout.

The animation was okay. I love animation and animated films, but the background looked a little too much like video game graphics to me, and it didn't always mesh well with the 2d animation.

On another note, some of the people swayed back and forth in a weird way when they were talking, and I know it was to indicate slight movement, but they just looked like zombies.

Love that the story is narrated by Éowyn!

I know that Héra is the protagonist and needs to look unique, but someone get her proper clothes. Half the men are wearing knee-length tunics, it won't look weird for her to do so as well.

Shoutout to Haleth, who I adored the minute he showed up. And I know he's human but his animation is now how I'm going to view Celegorm.

I'm glad that Fréalaf was depicted as darker-skinned, and some of the Dunlendings as paler.

I have loved Helm Hammerhand for years, so every time he showed up I was very happy. And so I was looking forward to the one-punch death scene, which was done very well.

That oliphaunt scene was extremely disturbing 10/10

Why did people get off their horses in the battle scene. It's a distinct disadvantage to be unhorsed, stop doing that!

I love people making practical decisions in wartime, good on them for evacuating the city.

This is a less obvious complaint given that Theoden did it in the PJ movies, but the Hornburg is not the place of retreat for Edoras. The people of Edoras would have retreated to Dunharrow, which is much closer.

Now for my second complaint about clothing: why is Héra not wearing winter garb? It's just the same outfit as her summer one just with long sleeves. Someone get her a cloak and some gloves, she must be freezing! (And she gets them later, so we know she has them).

Same as above but with Helm. My guy should not be out there in a sleeveless tunic, give him some layers please.

I love that they gave Helm's death scene justice. That death has been stuck in my head ever since I read the appendices and I was very much looking forward to it.

But why is he holding his hammer in the morning? He didn't have it, he left it on the plains of Edoras.

I have questions. about Rohirric ice-climbing equipment. And also questions on how Héra got back down from the aerie.

I really appreciate the eagle being portrayed as a wild animal!! They're not tame and they don't suffer humans often!

I have so many questions about the siege tower, mostly: why didn't they just build smaller ones and then move them towards the Deep? And did the people of the time actually have the technology and did the wood have the tensile strength to actually create a telescopic tower like that? (doubt)

Love Héra going out to meet Wulf face-to-face. Especially as a practical distraction.

Why did she do it in a dress that has a slit all the way down the back once again its winter she'll freeze where is her shift.

Shoutout to Tarrg, I loved him from the first time he appeared and he has not disappointed, 10/10 voice of reason

(and since gut wounds are not lethal and he did not die onscreen, I choose to believe that he recovered and then retired peacefully).

Love my aroace princess riding off at the end instead of settling down

#war of the rohirrim #war of the rohirrim spoilers #tolkien

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eri-pl · 4 months ago

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I need a name. But not for a character.

So, you know how in LotR there is that one charge where Thoeden charges and "his eyes shone like a Vala's" and stuff.

Let us ignore for a moment the fact that comparision to a Vala (or to Orome by name) is a huge compliment by itself. But. This is the same description that Fingolfin gets in his death scene. And Fingolfin is insanely powerful first age king of the Eldar. So, basically, Theoden gets complimented by comparision to Fingolfin, but not directly, but by getting the same poetic description.

Does this literary device have a name?

I don't mean things like Elrond-Luthien parallel description because they look similar, because he is her great-grandson. I mean things that are more behavioral or psychological than just physical looks. (Yes, in the Legendarious "shining eyes" is a psychological trait).

Thank you.

#tolkien legendarium #silm fandom #literary devices #idk how to tag it #i need a name for this thing #it's a cool thing #and probably if i read more slowly and with more focus i would find more of it #:)#something something normal… nah I am not normal #anyway

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afirewiel · 8 months ago

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Why Didn't Aragorn Rebuff Eowyn Sooner?

(Note: this is all to do with movie events, not the book).

During our most recent rewatch of The Lord of the Rings, during the scene when Aragorn tells Eowyn "I cannot give you what you seek", my mom said, "You know, he really should have told her that sooner." I can see her point. Nothing Aragorn has said or done until now has rebuffed her, if anything she only seemed to have been encouraged. Indeed, even Theoden seems to believe that there is something going on between the two of them.

So why did Aragorn wait so long to speak when he clearly doesn't love her? He certainly doesn't seem the type to lead a woman on. The answer I believe can be found in one word: duty.

Since the death of Boromir, Aragorn was warmed up to the idea of taking his rightful place as the king of Gondor. At the very least, he doesn't hate it as much as he used to. We can see how his attitude toward men in general and the men of Gondor specifically have changed. First when he tells Theoden that Gondor will answer and again when he volunteers to go to Minas Tirith to warn them himself.

Aragorn has started to accept that it is his duty and responsibility to ascend the throne. But there is a catch. If he were to become king it would also be his duty to marry and produce an heir. What would be the point of not doing so? What would be the point of taking up the throne only for Gondor to fall kingless again once he died? It would be pointless. Aragorn is a smart man. I doubt this hasn't crossed his mind.

The problem is, the person he wants to marry is Arwen and it very clear that he believes she is leaving for the Undying Lands and that he'll never see her again. So marrying for love is out of the question. So marrying for duty is all that is left to him and here is this young beautiful woman named Eowyn who clearly has feelings for him. Aragorn doesn't dislike her. He's certainly fond of her, if nothing else. He evens says that he wishes her joy. So it's not impossible that he may have considered a marriage of duty and to Eowyn. He may have even hoped that he'd grow to love her.

Then Lord Elrond arrives and tell him "Arwen is dying." Those three words change everything. Aragorn realizes he could never love Eowyn as he does Arwen, that Arwen is, and would always be the love of his life. That he cannot in good conscience marry Eowyn knowing that and that it would be unfair to let her think there is hope for the two of them. So he speaks. Maybe he should have done so sooner, but he had his reasons. At least he did so. Better later than never after all.

#the lord of the rings #lotr #aragorn #eowyn

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torchwood-99 · 3 months ago

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The playing around with gendered narratives we see in Faramir and Eowyn's relationship fascinates me. I've already dwelled on how they almost swap roles in the virtues they possess, the plot points of their stories, and the dramatic climaxes of their arcs, but Tolkien really goes one step further with writing Faramir in a manner that is usually reserved for women, by turning him into "the love interest" after he meets Eowyn.

Before meeting Eowyn, one of Faramir's driving conflicts and dynamics is that with his father. It's a complex and difficult relationship based on love and antipathy, and it ends in the most devastating manner. Some significance is given to how Faramir will respond to the death of his father, as Gandalf gives instructions for him to be told soon his father is dead, but to wait a while before telling him how.

We never see Faramir's reaction to either piece of news. This crucial development is forgotten, without even a line expressing how he found out, or what he felt when he did.

After meeting Eowyn, Faramir character, his arc, his interiority, develops around her.

We see him try to get through to her, to make a connection with her, he fears the world ending because he doesn't want to lose her after finding her, he rejoices in the world being saved by kissing her brow. It all hinges on her. His happiness is complete when she gives him her love. His love was always on offer, the choice for them to be together hinged on her.

In contrast, Eowyn's pre-battle conflicts and dynamics carry on after meeting Faramir. Her despair, her feelings for Aragorn, her mourning Theoden, her need to find a cause for hope and a reason to keep on living now the war is done and death in battle is beyond her. Her friendship with Merry, her loyalty to Rohan; she has Faramir wait for her to return, because first she has duties to do in her home country. Faramir is a new thread in her narrative, and a significant one, but all the earlier threads in her narrative carry through, whereas it feels a bit like some of Faramir's narrative threads were snipped once Eowyn had entered the frame.

Now, we do know that factually Faramir was rebuilding Gondor, and that he became Steward and Prince of Ithilien afterwards, but we don't follow his thoughts and feelings and his struggles as he takes on this new role. As a person, as an individual, he has multiple purposes and priorities. He is still Faramir, who still loves his country and has dreams for how it will grow after the war. He doesn't lose his personhood. But as a character, his story is about Eowyn, and whether or not he gets her. It began with him meeting Eowyn. It followed him reaching out to Eowyn. It ended in Eowyn saying yes.

When Faramir takes a moment to talk about his future, when we get a personal, emotional look at how Faramir views his role and his ambitions, he makes it all about her. He will marry Eowyn, if she wills it. They will go to Ithilien and plant a garden there, if she wills it. And if they do, everything will be wonderful, if she is there.

Contrast to Eowyn talking about her future with Faramir, it's also all about her. How her mindset has changed, how her priorities have shifted, how she no longer wishes to die but wishes to heal, how she has finally found hope at last. The most Faramir gets in this speech is a coy little reference as to how Eowyn no longer wishes to be queen.

Their troth plighting centres Eowyn as well. Eomer justifies holding it at Theoden's funeral because of how much Theoden loved her. He says that the Steward asked for her hand and she granted it, "full willing". The troth plighting scene ends in a reconciliation between Aragorn and Eowyn. Faramir stays in Rohan for a while to be with Eowyn, and the last we see of Eowyn, it's in a scene focussing on her warriors at arms bond with Merry.

Eowyn and Faramir's stories, after the Battle of Pelennor, becomes Eowyn and Faramir's story. It's about them falling in love and coming together. However, in this story, it's not the bloke who is the Hero, and the woman who is the Love Interest. Here, Eowyn is the Hero, with multiple narrative threads and dynamics that need to be resolved, and Faramir is the Love Interest, whose narrative is entirely wrapped in whether or not he gets the girl.

#LOTR #Lord of the Rings #Eowyn #Faramir #Farawyn #Tolkien Meta Week

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