#the one at timestamp 11:00 really made me laugh

[the-conversation-pod]

The Untamed Episodes: The First Life

AND WE'RE BACK

It's been a hot minute since we dropped an episode, so we're back to talk about a project that has stuck in fandom for years. We finally got NiNi to watch The Untamed, so grab your snacks and come listen to her talk about everyone's hair along with our friends @lurkingshan and @neuroticbookworm. We'll be discussing censorship in media as we try to run through the big overview of Wei Wuxian's first life.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:00:55 - Introduction 00:03:55 - Censorship in Media: A Global View 00:12:37 - The MoDaoZuShi Phenomenon 00:24:33 - The Big Picture 00:33:36 - The First Life 00:40:07 - The First Life: Thoughts and Impressions 00:46:21 - The First Life: WangXian and Other Fucked Up Love Stories 01:01:17 - The First Life: Various Random Musings 01:11:02 - Outro: Notes From the Future

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:00:55 - Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. This week we're doing a little bit of a retrospective. We're gonna be covering The Untamed. Friend of the pod, pod team member, and troll of the pod, Shan—who is of course here. 

NiNi

Say hi, Shan.

Shan 

Hi, people!

Ben 

Shan mentioned during our Diamond League episode that this was a huge oversight in the pod's discussion history and so we successfully bullied NiNi into finally watching it. And she managed to watch the whole thing.

Shan 

I'm so impressed.

NiNi 

It was a struggle. It was a lot. There were some episodes in the middle where I was just like, ooh, okay, I'm just gonna have to push through. But I made it.

Shan 

You sure did.

Ben 

Because The Untamed is such a large project to discuss, we brought an additional clown along with us. Everyone welcome back Bookworm. 

Say hi, Bookworm.

Bookworm 

Hi people!

Ben 

Bookworm, despite how busy she is, has been following Shan's [laughs] recommended BLs list for like two years now. And then for about, like, a one month period, we completely lost Bookworm to reading all five of these books. And then during Christmas of ‘24, I think, you guys watched all of The Untamed in like a week.

Bookworm 

We did it in two weeks, I think. Six episodes a day.

NiNi 

That is commitment.

Shan

Bookworm has very short windows where she actually has a lot of free time. So we took advantage of the holiday season.

Bookworm 

She trapped me between Christmas and New Year's.

Shan 

I just strapped her to a chair, and said [Bookworm laughs] we're watching the episodes, let's go.

NiNi 

She's good at doing that. 

Bookworm 

Sure is. 

NiNi

That's how she got Ben to watch Goblin.

Bookworm

Wow, that was a moment. That was so good.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

I'm feeling really proud of my accomplishments.

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

Goblin was at least better than Coffee Prince, ‘cause there was a moment when I was watching Coffee Prince, around like episode 10, where I'm like, I'm over this show!

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

He was so mad because he was waiting for the turn and it hadn't come yet and he was getting so frustrated.

NiNi 

Episode 10 of a kdrama? That's not when it happens. Come on!

Shan 

He just didn't understand the rhythms yet. He pushed through, and then he came around and ended up loving the show.

Ben 

Goblin did a much better job of not losing me during the episode 10 phenomenon because they had great Bonds Between Men content. Every time I'm like, “ooh, I'm getting a little tired of this modern angst shit,” they're like, “here's a scene from the past with that one guy you love.” There he is. There's my boy.

NiNi 

I think that's a good segue into what we're gonna talk about here, Bonds Between Men, because this is a show that works on multiple levels deliberately because of details that we're gonna talk about. So let's dive into talking about The Untamed.

00:04:14 - Censorship in Media: A Global View

Ben 

Normally on this show, as you all know, we would do like a “Ben, what the fuck is the show about?” and I'd give some kind of snarky blurb about it, and then we get into it. Because we're talking about the biggest Chinese BL that exists, we're gonna unpack a ton of the context around our understanding of Chinese censorship. 

Shan, you've done a bunch of the background on this one. Take us in.

Shan 

So first, just an acknowledgement up top that censorship exists in all media. That there are standards in every country that have to be met for anything that is aired, on public television in particular, in movies. This is not a thing that is unique to China. And most Asian dramas are censored to some extent according to whatever the social norms of their home country are. 

That said, Chinese censorship is especially strict. It's considered one of the worst state censorship models in the world. The Chinese Communist Party monitors everything that comes out. They're very often concerned with curtailing political opposition and promoting Chinese nationalism—if you include more of it, you can get away with doing stuff they don't like. They want to prevent negative depictions of Chinese history. They're also very often just doing basic morality policing around sex, in particular. So, even in heterosexual romance media, this applies. You see very little sex in cdramas, even when they're het. Angle kisses, stuff like that still exist even in het media. Of course this is even more severe for queer media. Typically, you're not even gonna see things like onscreen kisses in queer media out of China. 

They also put limits on things like magic, which is very relevant for the story we're gonna talk about today. It has to be depicted so as to avoid seeming more powerful than the state or promoting superstition. This is very often why characters who use magic are not really allowed to have happy endings. You can't show a character thriving because of their use of magic in Chinese media. So sometimes magic is changed out completely in these stories for quasi-scientific explanations, or magic is used and then the characters have ambiguous or sad endings in order to counterbalance that.

On top of those censorship norms, there's also law around pornography. Pornography is completely illegal in China. Technically, since the mid 2010s, homosexuality is not criminalized legally anymore in China, but there are a lot of really vague laws that still exist around abnormal sexual behavior, quote unquote, and obscenity, quote unquote, that allow for queer media to be targeted by censors. 

In terms of Chinese BL shows, there were a handful of them prior to The Untamed that did make it to air. Most of them adapted from novels—we'll get a little bit more into that in a minute. In 2017, in the middle of the airing of Addicted, is when the censorship crackdown on BL really took shape. That show was very popular and was actually depicting things like kisses between men and it immediately got terminated, yanked off the air, and then the censorship laws got much stricter. 

Y'all probably remember that, NiNi and Ben. I think you were around in fandom when that went down.

Ben 

I sure was.

NiNi 

I wasn't quite there yet, I watched Addicted after the fact and I didn't have the context.

Shan 

You were confused, right? [laughs] You're like, why is this show such a big deal?

Ben 

Both of those guys kind of disappeared from acting for years afterwards. 

Shan 

They got blacklisted. 

Ben

They're only just now starting to work again.

Shan

Yeah. So that show got yanked off mid-airing right after the first kiss aired on TV. And then after that, you never saw anything like that. Even the few Chinese BLs that managed to get released after that, you don't see things like on air kisses or acknowledgement of sex at all. 

It's hard for a lot of these shows to get made in the first place. Even after they get made, a lot of them don't end up going to air or they start airing and then get yanked off TV very quickly. There are many, many danmei adaptations sitting on the shelf in China. There are shows that have been made and will never get released. It's a really rough environment for creators who are trying to make this queer content and get it out in the world.

Ben 

Let's add some additional context, if we can, about censorship outside of China. Since we have two Americans and two non-Americans here. 

Bookworm or NiNi, do you have any specific cultural memories of censorship in media from your home countries? ‘Cause I have a few American ones I will of course bitch about.

NiNi 

I'm gonna let Bookworm go first because India and censorship? This is a big one.

Bookworm 

I know, right. So in India, the most prominent kind of censorship that I've noticed in media is almost a self-censorship by the creators themselves around things that deal with caste or religion, and we very rarely get homosexual depictions, but whatever we do get, it's almost always a tragedy. I've never seen a gay character have a happy ending in Indian media yet. When we have inter-caste romance depiction, for example, the story will struggle between the realities of how caste can affect these relationships and how it will be received and how difficult their lives will be made, and giving them a happy ending. In India, even though openly we say that it's bad and we shouldn't be clinging to the caste systems now in the 21st century, it's still there. And even though it's not said out loud, most of the powerful media producers and people who can fund this, they tend to be people who are from upper caste. So, if you make something that is openly against their caste, it's just never gonna come out. 

So, when I watched The Untamed, it was very relatable to watch something where they wanted to do more, but you can see that they just can't.

NiNi 

In Trinidad, we don't have a very big recorded media tradition. A lot of our art is theatre-based. And you can find pretty much most things in the theatre, but it's mostly for comedy sake so there's a lot of sex farce, that kind of thing. In terms of recorded media there isn't that much, but what there is, you don't really see, like, actors kiss that much. But that’s not a censorship thing because t's not like they would not be able to air that. It's just a question of the traditions being different. There's no standards boards or things like that, but we don't put very much on the air anyway.

Ben 

In America they would just lie. 

NiNi 

All men do is lie. [laughs]

Ben

They pretend that the advertisers or the nebulous white midwesterner won't want to watch things like Pose, or if a gay actor says something out of line they hurriedly cancel their show despite the show being really fucking good. Having to pick up the scraps that the establishment here is willing to make each year is incredibly frustrating. There's a lot to be said about top-down state level censorship, but I don't think it's inherently worse or better than this.

Shan 

Well yeah, there's state censorship and then there's censorship due to trying to attract sponsors and advertising dollars. But it ends up in the same kind of results of not having honest depictions in media. And I think American media is very susceptible to the latter.

NiNi 

There's also some interesting things there between how sex is censored and how violence is censored in Western media. I wouldn't say that it's not censored, but you can get away with a lot more violence than you can with sex.

Ben 

I have a lot of feelings about the MPAA, so we're not gonna get into that, but let's just point out that you can have somebody run through a building shooting up everybody and get a PG-13 rating as long as there's no blood. But if two gay people even look at each other too long, that's an R rating immediately.

Shan 

Rated R, mmhmm. This stuff is not new, it is not unique to any one country, it exists everywhere. But currently, in 2025, China has one of the strictest state censorship models. And so that's the context under which Chinese BL is made. And, the context under which The Untamed was released.

00:14:54 - The Mo Dao Zu Shi Phenomenon

Ben 

All right, now let's get into Mo Dao Zu Shi properly. This has been around for awhile.

Shan 

So, danmei is the term that is meant to describe Chinese literature that features male/male romance within a whole bunch of different genres. It's a very broad term, danmei. It just means male/male romance. These typically are published as web novels, usually serialized, written mostly by and targeted mostly to a female audience. 

Danmei exists in a kind of a gray space legally in China. It's both queer and pornographic, so it's technically not allowed, but there's not really an enforcement mechanism. The authors stay anonymous because of course, if they're caught publishing this stuff, there could be serious repercussions. 

A lot of danmei novels have become available in recent years to an international audience. First, via fan translations that were done just purely out of love. And then those translations got passed around via the online whisper network of international folks who were interested in these stories. And this genre became so popular that there are now official English translations of some of these books being made. There's a publishing company called Seven Seas that has acquired the rights for many of the most popular danmeis and are publishing them over time. And so that is how this book, Mo Dao Zu Shi, aka Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation, became much more widely available to an English speaking audience. 

This book originally started in 2015 and the writer is Mo Xiang Tong Xiu. It was so popular that it has been, over the years, translated into over a dozen languages. It was first passed around the international audience via a very popular fan translation, and then became officially published in English starting in 2021. Made the New York Times bestseller list, expanded the audience for this story even further. This is a story that is set in a genre called xianxia which is a popular Chinese media genre about humans in historical China who are called cultivators, which basically means that they do martial arts enhanced by magic. They have paranormal, spiritual, physical powers that help them achieve immortality.

This story was so popular that it's had a bunch of adaptations. It's had a webcomic, an audio drama, an animated series and a spinoff to that, an audio book, a mobile game, and of course, The Untamed, the live action show, which we are gonna be discussing today. And there are additional adaptations still being announced. We just found out that there's gonna be a Japanese stage adaptation in the theater, which I'm very curious to see what that's gonna be like. 

So this is an extremely popular story that has really gone global through fan word of mouth. It's a huge deal in terms of its reach and its enduring popularity with fans.

Ben 

You have no idea how much time Shan and Bookworm spent trying to get all of these notes in order. 

Shan 

It's a lot to cover! 

Ben

[laughs] We had a whole side thing with Twig about, like, a canceled international tour that was gonna happen before COVID.

Shan

I didn't even know about that.

Ben 

Let’s establish when everybody came to this. So, I came to The Untamed through normal Tumblr BL sphere around episode 25ish of the drama, I believe? 

Ben

Shan, when did you come to The Untamed?

Shan 

It's hard for me to remember now. I've been so up in this story’s business for years now that it's really hard for me to actually untangle in my brain when I got to certain versions of it and how. But I didn't watch it live. I definitely binged it after the whole thing was out. So I think I probably first watched the series in 2020 or 2021, read the novel and then watched the series again. I was watching a lot of Asian dramas. I had started getting into BL and Netflix just told me to watch this. They put it right on top and I was like, “oh this is interesting, I haven't seen anything quite like this before.” It's kind of remarkable that I'm just sitting over here in the United States and Netflix is telling me to watch this Chinese BL web series. 

This aired in China on Tencent Video. But it was so, so popular. It became one of the highest earning dramas of 2019. Over time, it passed 10 billion views. Netflix picked it up in late 2019, brought it to a much broader international audience. And that's how people like me saw it. This is a story that in both novel and show form spread fiercely by word of mouth. People just loved it so much that it kept getting picked up and brought to new audiences.

When did you first hear about this show, Bookworm?

Bookworm

I think I was just vaguely aware of a very long Chinese drama that was on Netflix. I possibly could have seen it on my recommendations before getting into watching BL at all. I started watching BL only in 2022. So I definitely was not in the fandom when this released live. 

So how I was introduced to this, the time was December 2023. And I just went to Shan’s DMs to talk about how my BTS bias was going to the military. And she was like, here you go. 

Shan 

Something to distract you. [laughs]

Bookworm 

“Here's a picture of this man who's so beautiful and always wears white for some reason. You can think about this man.” And it was like, “what do I do to know more about this man?” And she was like, “I know exactly where I should send you.” And she just directed me to all the books. So yeah, that's how I spent my 2023 holidays, just locked in my room like a gremlin inhaling all the books.

[Ben laughs]

Shan 

I did not remember that I showed you Wangji because V was going to the military. [laughs]

Bookworm

That's exactly what happened. You trapped a freshly grieving army wife!

NiNi 

it just amazes me how Shan is so good at tempting people. She knows exactly how to get people to do things. It's a little bit scary.

Bookworm 

The whole thing was done in 10 days. I genuinely don't think I slept for more than maybe four to five hours. [laughs]

Ben 

[laughs] You did not. You were talking to us in a haze. You screaming about sections.

Shan 

The thing about Bookworm is she also likes to live blog her book reading. So we were along for the ride. [laughs]

Bookworm 

That's right. Every time something happened, I bothered them. It's kind of their fault. Shan put me through it. Like, she has to suffer.

Shan 

I had to be there for emotional support after doing that to you.

Bookworm 

Exactly.

NiNi 

That's the thing, Shan's gonna, like, be the temptress that is seducing you with the apple, but then she'll be right there with you when you fall apart. [laughs]

Bookworm

Exactly.

Shan 

It's my duty.

Ben

NiNi, what did you know about this whole experience from just sort of seeing it in the background noise of BL constantly for the last five years before you sat down and engaged with it?

NiNi 

So I don't think it's any surprise to anybody who listens to this show that I don't watch cdrama, but this show is sort of inescapable. I have friends who are not BL fans, who are not Asian drama fans, who watch this and rave about it and talk about it all the time. This thing is a fucking monster and completely inescapable. And I was just like, “eh yes, I know everybody says it's good. It probably is really good. I don't know how I feel about censorship like this. I don't know if this is something I wanna watch, if it's gonna frustrate me.” I was aware of it out there in the world and aware of how big it was. But, “eh, not sure it's for me.” And then after the Diamond League, I was basically Shan’d into watching it. [laughs]

We're gonna use Shan’d from now on, like to Shan somebody.

Bookworm 

That is a good verb. We are gonna use that.

NiNi 

We're gonna coin a new term, to Shan somebody.

Shan 

I'm just here to enrich your lives with this amazing media that you need to see. And NiNi ended up enjoying this way more than I thought she would. So I was very pleased.

Ben 

We're gonna jump ahead slightly and tell on NiNi. NiNi is now watching Word of Honor.

[all laugh]

Shan 

She sure is!

Bookworm 

She is!

NiNi

I am. [laughs]

Shan

The evil plan is proceeding very nicely.

NiNi 

I will say though, Word of Honor is like the Passions to the Days of Our Lives that is The Untamed. 

Shan 

Yes! 

NiNi

And anybody who does not understand what that means, I'm so sorry for you.

Shan

It's exactly right.

Bookworm 

It's me. I'm the one who doesn't understand what that means, but it's fine.

Shan 

These are American soap operas that NiNi is referencing.

Ben

American soaps that have been on forever.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

Basically, Days of Our Lives is wild, Passions is lower quality and wilder.

Shan 

This show, this story, the book, all of it. It's ubiquitous if you hang out in fandom spaces online. You cannot avoid it if you are in those spaces. It is one of the biggest fandoms. It's certainly the biggest BL fandom on the internet.

Ben 

When we watched this in 2019, I was minding my own business, watchin’ shit like Until We Meet Again and Trapped. And then they started posting all these gif sets of all these Chinese boys with really long wigs and very clean outfits. There was a lot of screaming. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Why is every goddamn lesbian on tumblr howling about this show?

Shan 

Why are the girls freaking out?

NiNi

And we all know from listening to this show that Ben listens when lesbians talk.

Shan 

That's right.

Ben 

I was like, I don't know what is happening, but every goddamn girl in BL is losing their minds over a censored Chinese BL in 2019. Have we not learned? [laughs] And they wouldn't shut the fuck up about it. And I'm like, all right, that's enough. Around episode 20 to 25. 

I got intrigued by the Bonds Between Men stuff. There are some gif sets at the time. Like, this looks like Man Angst. Hold on, I'm intrigued now. Let me go check this out. 

I remember going through The Untamed loop. Being kind of overwhelmed with details in the first few episodes. And then we went, “okay, we're in a flashback sequence. Guess we'll be here for like an episode or two.” We weren't. And then I ended up catching up with where the show was around episode 38, which was great timing for me. Like, I ended up catching up to the show right around the time we got into the present. And I was like, “I have context’ and then watched the rest of the show [laughs] live with everybody else and had a pretty good time. And then like a week after it finished, I ended up watching the show again. Because I feel like I needed to reprocess it.

I don't think I was prepared for how sticky the show has been for fandom itself. I guess I shouldn't have been because fandom really loves to fill in the blanks on stuff. That's their favorite thing. I grew up watching a lot of Chinese action and a lot of wuxia films, so I had a good time, but I was not expecting this to be the show for everyone. I like the show a fair amount, but I was very surprised by this becoming one of the biggest BLs of all time.

Shan 

It's not only the fill in the blank stuff, but it's also that there's just so many characters, so many relationships, so many dynamics that are just great fodder for meta and fanfic and just, thinking. There's just so much here and I think that's why it has endured for so long.

00:28:42 - The Big Picture

Ben

Okay, we are going to now attempt to talk about the show.

NiNi 

I'm glad you said attempt, bestie, because there's just so much here.

Shan 

Please don't get mad at us for whatever we inevitably leave out.

Ben 

Let's just get that out of the way. We will not be able to discuss everything that happens in a 50 episode drama adapted from a five book complex novel series. We will be covering some highlights of things that are interesting to us and doing some comparisons along the way.

This is a pretty big story and at its core, it's a mystery. So, if you've been holding off on watching this and you feel some kind of way about spoiler culture—I personally don't subscribe to it—but we will be talking about the details of this show for the rest of the episode. So, if you'd like to resume this later, go ahead and pause, grab a shit ton of snacks, go watch The Untamed, [laughs] and then come back.

[all laugh]

Bookworm 

Be prepared to not sleep for a long time.

NiNi

Two weeks is the bare minimum. 

Ben 

You have been warned. All right. So, The Untamed is primarily a story about a talented young cultivator named Wei Wuxian who was kind of in a high ranking role within one of these major clans that organize themselves around cultivation. They have a role in their society where they help manage supernatural phenomena and protect regular people from supernatural and ghost related bullshit. 

There is an expected way that you're supposed to practice and study cultivation. The most powerful clan who wears a lot of red is like, “that's it, we're taking over everything,” and then begins murdering everyone. A lot of things happen. Wei Wuxian ends up developing demonic cultivation in the book, rediscovers it in the show—we'll talk about that later—and helps the not-red clan defeat them, after which we end up in the complex politics that follow after a major power shift. 

Eventually Wei Wuxian dies in a major confrontation after he kills thousands of people, and then 16 years later in the show, he is brought back, reuniting with some of his close friends and allies—because this is a BL romance/not romance—as they go on an investigation to figure out why this cursed hand is trying to kill everybody. 

That is the simplest overview I can give of a very complicated show.

Shan 

You did good, bestie. That's about the best you could do.

NiNi 

I did not look at the timer when you started talking, so I do not know exactly how long that took.

Ben

It was about three minutes. I was trying to do it under three. There are a shit ton of characters in this. Wei Wuxian is a very likable protagonist with very clear relationship dynamics with every character. So there's a lot to really dig into.

Shan 

I think you should reiterate for folks what the experience of watching The Untamed is like. There's this very famous tweet that I think we should give some credit to that described it perfectly.

Ben 

We'll post the screenshot and a link to it in the transcript. Gavia Baker Whitelaw, is a film critic who runs her own podcast, she has her own Tumblr blog, I'll link to hers on here, she goes by @hellotailor. I'm a big fan of Gavia's writing, I really like the way she engages with media. Gavia went through the same experience as the rest of us in early 2020 of like, “what is this show?!” [laughs]

So Gavia starts watching The Untamed and is live blogging on Twitter. “What is this nonsense that I'm watching? What is happening?” And the user who went by Dr. Kate Wild at the time writes, “There's three stages to watching The Untamed. Stage one, this is nonsense. This is very bad.”

That's like episodes one and two.

“Stage two, this is quite watchable nonsense.” That's around episodes four to eight. 

And then “Stage three, I have never cared about anything more in my life.” [NiNi laughs] That happens for different people at different times. 

Shan

NiNi, it was taking her a while to get to stage three. And I said, “Don't worry, NiNi. Stage three comes for all of us at different times. You will get there.” And she did. [laughs]

Ben 

When was stage three for you, Shan?

Shan 

Okay, so first of all, I am a Lan Wangji devotee. I love that man. He owns my heart. So from episode one, as soon as he appeared, I was like, “okay, hell yeah, that's my guy. I'm here, I'm seated.” But in terms of when the story kinda took over my brain, I think that really happened for me during the arc where Wei Wuxian is liberating the Wen prisoners of war and he meets Lan Wangji on the Qiongqi Path in the rain and they have a very sad and tense conversation before Wangji decides to let him leave with the prisoners, but does not leave with him. 

That scene—which by the way is unique to the show—just drilled itself into my brain so deep and I was never normal again, ever, and I never will be. That was the point when stage three took root for me and I became obsessed with this media, and that obsession will last for my whole life.

Ben 

I think it was during the cave arc when Wei Wuxian made Lan Wangji vomit blood. I'm like, “that's way too fucking gay. I have to watch this little man for the rest of the show.” [laughs] 

Shan 

I feel like most people are super in by that sequence, too.

Ben

That whole section is pretty good though, between the handling of the hostage arc, the blow up in the cave, and then the sacking of Lotus Pier. That's a really strong section for people who really like historical political dramas. There's a really strong sense of inevitability at the point at which Wei Wuxian in particular is thrust into the situation, because he's not a passive person. But you can feel the next 15 episodes about to unfold.

Shan 

What about you, Bookworm?

Bookworm 

For me I think it's different because I read the books first and the books are structured quite differently from how the show is structured. So the show does it very linear. Once you jump into the flashbacks you just keep going for 33 episodes and then you emerge, as Ben said, with context. But in the books it interweaves between the present and the flashbacks and the structure kind of gives way to the author releasing information in like very small amounts to keep the tension and intrigue going. 

I'm just the kind of person who starts screaming from the very first moment a question appears on my book or on my show. Like if there is something that needs to be revealed, I need to have it. Just tell me. I don't care if it's a 50 episode show, I don't care if it's a 10 book series. I just start vibrating from the moment I see the puzzle that needs to be solved. 

So in the books, Wei Wuxian, when he's in Mo Xuanyu’s body, people are not gonna recognize him as Wei Wuxian. So he was just like coasting on that and he was doing all sorts of shenanigans with Lan Zhan. But we get to a point where Lan Zhan calls him Wei Ying and he just freezes and he's like, how did you know that it was me? And Lan Zhan just tells him, “You're gonna have to think for yourself.” And that's it. That was stage three.

Shan 

Classic. And that dynamic keeps coming up over and over again through the whole story.

Bookworm 

I was like, “oh my god, how did he know? Just tell me, just tell me!” So that was my stage three. 

What about you, NiNi? 

Shan 

NiNi’s came later, right?

NiNi 

Mine came very late. Stage three for me came when Wei Wuxian is hanging off the cliff and Lan Zhan is trying to save him. And this implacable man just breaks and his face just completely changes. And I'm just like, “okay, I'm in.” 

Shan 

Yeah, it was definitely Lan Zhan’s emotional break for you, right?

NiNi 

Oh, most definitely. From the outside, he appears controlled, even though it's very clear to anybody who's watching this show that this man is losing his mind at all times. And in this case, he just cracks. Because he's about to lose this man and he knows it. And that's when I was just like, “okay, I'm in.”

00:39:30 - The First Life

Ben 

We gotta get into the overall set of arcs that we went through in the show. Wei Wuxian is our viewpoint character and we've gotten really caught up in the romance between him and Wangji. But at the core, this is a political power drama where there's a lot of different players vying for control. Wei Wuxian is the wild card because he actually doesn't value political power that much. We at least need to establish, like, what does everybody else give a shit about.

Shan 

We're gonna divide this because there's two different time periods. So let's start with the first life of Wei Wuxian, the first time period. 

When the show starts, we are dropped into the story in a very confusing manner. Wei Wuxian is resurrected. He's in a new body 16 years after he died. He doesn't know why the fuck he's back or what's going on. He runs into lots of friends and allies and enemies and frenemies and he is running around like a chicken with his head cut off. He's confused. We're confused. You're not really supposed to understand what's going on in those first couple episodes, but there's actually a ton of information packed into them. As Ben said, once you have context, if you go back and watch them, there's so much information in those first couple episodes.

NiNi 

This is the “this is nonsense” stage.

Shan 

Exactly. This is the stage one. Where you're like, “What the fuck is going on? Why are all these people running around like this? I don't understand anything.” [laughs] It's intended to be kind of disorienting. 

Then you jump into this long flashback, which is about 30 episodes long. So you get the political power struggle between the great clans. There are five of them: the Jiang which Wei Wuxian is part of, the Lan, which Lan Wangji is part of, the Nie, the Jin, the Wen. That main political power struggle is driven by the Wens trying to do a hostile takeover of the other clans. They burn the Cloud Recesses, they storm the Unclean Realm, they sack Lotus Pier, and then the war—the Sunshot Campaign—is a response to that, the other clans joining hands to try to stop the Wens from trying to take over the cultivation world. Lots of complex dynamics between the clans going on there that we will not get into that culminates in this Battle of Nightless City.

Alongside that political power struggle, we have Wei Wuxian's rise to power and his fall from grace. He is incredibly smart. He's a cultivation prodigy. He is also not as reverent about the traditional ways of doing things. He's very interested in unorthodox cultivation methods, including demonic cultivation, which is very much looked down on. As the war played out and as the Wens take control, he was part of fighting them alongside his struggles with controlling his own power. He took great exception to the aftermath of the war, the treatment of the Wen prisoners of war, the more innocent Wen clan members who were not part of this, who are just regular folks or weak cultivators, medical cultivators who didn't actually hurt anyone but were treated badly because they were Wens by the other clans. So he intervened to protect those folks. That is what led to him retreating from the cultivation world to the Burial Mounds to live with the Wens, resurrecting Wen Ning and ultimately setting himself up to be a scapegoat and get ambushed by the other clans, because they were very unhappy with him.

Alongside that, we have a couple very personal storylines going on. One to do with Wei Wuxian's family relationships and the implosion of his clan family, the Jiang family. They are his adopted family, the heir, who is Jiang Cheng, and sister Jiang Yanli, these are his adoptive siblings. It's a very fraught family relationship. His adoptive mother resents him partly because of who his mother is and partly because he outshines her son, the sect heir. When Lotus Pier—their family home—is attacked, both of the Jiang parents die. The clan is basically decimated, Jiang Cheng loses his core, and Wei Wuxian decides to pull a real big noble idiocy. Sacrifice his own life, basically, for his brother, give him his core, tell nobody he did this, and then start cultivating on the demonic path to try to come up with another source of power as part of his survival. His relationship with his brother is, in particular, one of the most interesting and dynamic and complicated relationships of the show. And he has a very, very deep love for his adoptive sister, which of course ends up coming back to bite him when, as a result of him losing control of his powers and starting this battle at Nightless City, his sister is killed in the chaos. Huge traumatic event, causes him to go off the deep end and destroys his relationship with his brother. 

Alongside all that, one more big storyline, of course, is the unfulfilled romance between Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji. We get alongside all this political power struggle stuff, some actually really lovely moments of them. First, meeting each other as teens, Wei Wuxian very infatuated with Lan Zhan right from the beginning, but didn't really understand what his feelings meant. Lan Wangji, of course, did understand what the feelings meant [laughs] and was not happy about it. 

NiNi 

Oh he was so mad, friend. He was so pissed. He's like, “Why do I like this wastrel?”

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan 

“Goddamn it! Why is it you?” 

So yeah, big gay panic on poor Wangji's side and big oblivious nonsense on Wuxian’s side. But then we see them over time bond over their shared values. They actually believe in a lot of the same core ideas. They end up doing adventures together. They defeat bad guys together. They survive together and support each other. They kind of develop, like, a deep friendship that on Wangji's side is always very consciously also romantic love and on Wuxian's side is a little bit more oblivious. 

When Wuxian loses his core and starts doing demonic cultivation, there is a divide that comes between them. Wangji does not understand these decisions. Wuxian will not tell him why he's doing any of this stuff. So they end up in this very tense dynamic where they're fighting all the time, but they don't wanna be fighting because they really care about each other. They spend some time together and attempt to reconnect, but of course everything ends in despair when Wei Wuxian basically jumps off the cliff after his sister dies at Nightless City and gives up on his life. And that is how the first life arc completes.

00:46:32 - The First Life: Thoughts and Impressions

Ben 

What I think works well with the drama, I personally like dropping us in and just being like, there's a lot of shit going on. You guys are gonna have to figure out a lot of shit over time. And I actually, in retrospect, like the very long 30-something episode flashback sequence. I think if they had tried to maintain the back and forth nature of the source material, the audience who maybe missed an episode or two here or there would be confused as hell. 

I also think it's a pretty clever choice because you start in the present and there's way too much shit going on. And then they flash back like, “so anyway, they're in school.” And everybody's like, “okay, I understand school. Let's meet some kids.” I think that's a really smart adaptation choice. Everybody may not understand what's going on in the world of cultivation, but everybody knows what it's like to be bored in a classroom with a stuffy old man telling you to write a bunch of rules down.

NiNi 

I kinda had the opposite reaction. I understand why they structured the story the way that they did, but for me, if they had started at Cloud Recesses, I would have been fine. And I feel like I would have had less of a who's on first kind of thing going. It took me a really long time to clue into what the story was even doing, because I was so confused. I didn't even understand that the Cloud Recesses stuff was a flashback at first. To me, if they had done the story more linearly, I would have gotten it. I understand why they did it the way that they did to set up a hook and to do this reverberation throughout the story of showing that these things happen over and over again. But for me, I would have been fine with a more linear narrative.

Shan 

Part of that is also just your unfamiliarity with cdrama tropes and, like, the signifiers of things like age and timeline shifts and class stuff. One thing I think is really funny, NiNi, is that you cued in so quickly to what the hair was telling you, which I thought was just so funny. [laughs]

NiNi 

This is the only reason I survived. I was reading the show and all the characters through the hairstyles. So I saw Wei Wuxian and his wild little tendrils and I was like, “okay, this guy's a rebel.” And then Lan Wangji with his very structured beehive. I was like, “okay, I know who you are, sir.” And then all the different characters, depending on how their hair was styled, I could get a sense of who they were as a character. If this person is mischievous, if they're playful, if they're, like, rules focused, I could get all of that through the hair. So that was actually really good. [laughs]

I could not remember anybody's names for the longest time. So I was in, like, the chat saying, “what is Beehive doing?” Or “Tendrils is acting a fool today.” And they would know exactly what I was talking about.  [laughs]

Shan 

It really worked for you. 

NiNi

It really did work.

Shan

NiNi was tracking as Wangji's beehive was getting bigger and bigger.

NiNi 

It was massive at one point. I was like, “oh, you are really trying to intimidate people now with this.” Like, that's what's happening here.

Shan 

It's true. Like, their hair changes with their status and with their age, right? So as Wangji attains higher status in the cultivation world, his hair pieces get more elaborate and huge. It's actually a very effective visual language.

NiNi 

It's like the Texas rule: the higher the hair, the closer to God.

Ben 

I mean, you're genuinely not wrong.

Shan 

No, it's real. I'm something that cued for you.

NiNi 

It really paid off for me at the end when Wangji comes to Wei Wuxian and his hair is all down and soft. I'm like, “oh my God, he's so in love.” 

Shan 

That's when NiNi just started melting. 

NiNi 

I did, I absolutely did. He had no beehive. He was entirely defenseless, basically, in front of this man. It's a great visual language for when you have this censorship that you can't say certain things and show certain things. Showing what was happening between the characters through the hair was very effective. For me, anyway.

Bookworm 

One of the key moments when NiNi really queued into the beehive and the tendrils thing was when, after Wei Wuxian was thrown into the Burial Mounds and Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji was searching for him, he just walked up to the Wen headquarters and the reveal was just slowly, you see his hair and then he just keeps walking with his sword out and NiNi just was like, “Oh, he has the biggest hive I've ever seen. You guys are done for.” [laughs]

NiNi

Like, these motherfuckers are dead! 

Bookworm

Dead.

NiNi

His beehive is up there, okay—

Shan 

Beehive is up. The sword is out.

NiNi 

He came to kill somebody, that's what's happening right now. [laughs]

Ben 

I think what works so well for me with the show and especially on, like, secondary or tertiary watches, is because you start off being told this is a tragedy. It, I think, puts you in the right mood when you're watching the past stuff. The show opens with people literally fighting each other for a plot token. We're watching cultivators in the midst of a crisis literally stab each other to grasp what they hope will make them stronger than other people. So we're ready for everything that's gonna go wrong because of the opening sequence. It's very well structured and why I think the show got away with so much. We know Wei Wuxian’s gonna die. We know that his brother is gonna be furious with him at his death and we know that this guy who's wearing all these white clothes is gonna be very upset about it when that happens. This set me up very well to anticipate a lot of what was coming.

You end up meeting all these characters in the past and then some of these people are just straight up dead 16 years later. And it's like, well, how did these people die? I thought the war was over. And this leads to the next phase of power play stuff that's happening.

00:53:00 - The First Life: WangXian and Other Fucked Up Love Stories

Ben

While this drama is censored, there is all sorts of really fucked up gay energy all over this story. 

Shan 

Let's talk about how impressively they managed to communicate the romance without being able to show anything explicit.

NiNi 

The romances, because I clocked about four romances in this thing and I was told that I was correct, so I'm so proud of myself. [Nandy and Shan laugh] There's two het romances and two queer romances. The het romances are between Jiang Yanli and Jin Zixuan—

Ben 

I love that they low-key hated their brother-in-law. [NiNi laughs] Like, that's such an appropriate brother experience.

NiNi 

There was nothing low-key about it, bestie. High-key hated. 

Shan 

Zixuan is very immature. He likes Yanli, but he's embarrassed that he likes her. And so he's kind of mean to her. And she, for some fucking reason that I never understood, just really likes him anyway. Which is why her brothers hate him. They do eventually get married and for their extremely brief marriage seem to be happy together.

NiNi 

So brief, so sad. We'll get into that a little bit later.

Ben 

Their marriage is arranged originally by their parents because their families have been allies for at least a generation or two and this is an attempt to strengthen that, and so the parents want these two kids to like each other. It's actually beneficial for the political goals of the families that in the end the kids actually do like each other. But there's complications. People never understand Wei Wuxian's relationship with Yanli, people constantly misread his relationship with her. And then there's the genuine issue of of Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian fucking despising Zixuan for being such a dick to their sister all the time.

NiNi 

I keep thinking about the whole inn thing where he takes over the entire inn and they can't even get a room. It's so fucking dumb. And he's such an asshole about it. [laughs]

Bookworm 

This is the storyline where I was glad that this was here because amongst all the fighting and the flying and the magical shit happening, like fighting a giant tortoise and being generals in war and all of that, this is where you're like, “oh, they're teenagers. Oh, they're so stupid.” [laughs]

NiNi

That's so true! 

Shan 

It's a good reminder that they’re all teenagers.

Bookworm 

Every time Jiang Yanli gives a pass to that man, I'm like, “oh my god. What?”

Ben 

I'm like, “girl, him, really?”

NiNi

You're like, Yanli, stand up! Stand up, girl.

Shan

It gets even wilder in the context of the political power struggle going on and the scapegoating of Wei Wuxian because that's her fucking brother and the Jins are going after him! So it's very wild to me that Yanli decides to marry into the family that is actively hunting her brother. Like, girl.

Ben 

I get the sense that she never understood how serious that was and I think she felt like her one big tantrum solved the problem.

Shan 

I do think that they set this character up well for that to be believable. She is not a strong cultivator. She is not very involved in sect politics. She is a very caring person who just loves who she loves and doesn't really want to deal with the idea that they won't get along. So she just doesn't allow it to be true in her head. And Wei Wuxian loves her. So, he was never going to say to her, “I don't want you to marry that man who's trying [laughs] to hunt me.” Because he wants her to be happy. 

I think her character makes sense. But she's a character that I can never personally get on board with, because I'm just like, “girl, your choices are so bad.” 

Ben 

I feel for her the same way I feel about the messy hets in Coffee Prince. Like, we needed, like, another like pat but tragic het story to make sure that we could get away with this very queer story.

Shan 

That's a good segue to talk about the other very subtle mini romance between Jiang Cheng and Wen Qing. Not in the books, by the way, this was added only for the show. And I think Ben, when we were watching, you commented that you thought it was really there to add an additional layer of heterosexual plausibility and plausible deniability for the show.

NiNi 

I feel like that was part of it, yes, but that is also a romance that doesn't happen. Jiang Cheng is definitely in love with Wen Qing. Wen Qing feels sort of the same, but Wen Qing is also an incredibly practical woman and Jiang Cheng is not saying anything that is going to help her. Like at one point, after everything's gone down with the Wen clan he was just like, “You should leave your clan.” Which is basically him asking her to marry him, and she's like “Dude, really? How do you think this is gonna go? My clan killed your parents, you are the heir and then you're going to bring me there as your wife? That's not gonna work.”

Shan 

I thought it was a really good way to illustrate the rock and hard place that Jiang Cheng was between for all of this show. 

NiNi 

Oh my god, I love this character.

Shan 

Right? He did care about the Wens. He did wanna help. But politically, there was only so much he could do and what he could do was not enough. He knew that. She knew that. They had to accept that. Given the circumstances he was in with a mostly decimated clan, very young and suddenly thrust into having to lead and rebuild the Jiangs, he just didn't have the power and the resources to do something like offer protection to the Wens. He couldn't do it. And he was not willing to risk the total decimation of his clan in order to try.

That's why he and Wei Wuxian ultimately broke, right? Wei Wuxian knew that. Which is why he left the clan to do it on his own. It's really good conflict because you can see that people care and they wanna try, but they just can't do what they think they should or what they want to. Wuxian did do those things and he paid for it, big time.

Ben 

See, and this is why I like it so much. If we're gonna have to do gay tragedy in a story, I need hets to suffer too. [laughs] Nobody's happy! The Jiang family relationship sucks. The leader of the Jin clan is a womanizer and an abuser who doesn't give a shit about all of his bastards he leaves all over the place. He's a gross, nasty man. The only happy heterosexuals we had died within a year of having their baby. 

Ope, nope that's not fair. Mianmian’s doing okay. Good for her.

Bookworm

Mianmian’s doing great. How dare you! [Ben laughs]

Shan 

She's the one happy het person in this show. [NiNi laughs] She's the one.

Bookworm 

The only sensible one.

NiNi 

Because—

Ben 

She supported the gays. 

NiNi

Mianmian stood up for the gays, exactly.

Ben

That's right!

Bookworm 

Yes!

Shan 

And because she left the clan. She said, “Fuck this shit, I'm goin’ rogue” and did her own thing.

Ben

One of the reasons why I think some of the other censored stuff fails is they just don't have enough hetero plausible deniability in them. You have to give the straight audience a bone if you're trying to get stuff past the powers that be. 

Shan 

Let's talk about the third love story that is technically never explicitly confirmed in book canon, but that's in my opinion only because the book is from Wuxian's point of view and he doesn't have the visibility to see it. That is, of course, Meng Yao and Lan Xichen.

NiNi 

My God.

NiNi

The most tragic of all the tragedies.

Bookworm 

Oh no! No no no!

Shan 

Go off, Bookworm.

Bookworm 

I just don't agree with the tragic part of it because for somebody in Lan Xichen’s position, he is so oblivious. He was played like a fiddle by this man. This is, like, dialed to a hundred in the show because the way Meng Yao was played in the show, you see him on screen just smirking around. And I'm like, “This man, he doesn't have good intentions. You can't trust him!”

NiNi 

For me, that's the tragedy. The visual language and everything, like the acting is telling me this is a villain. But I trust Lan Xichen so much that when Lan Xichen trusts Meng Yeo, at first I'm just like, okay, well, there must be a reason. If he trusts him, maybe I'm reading this all wrong or maybe this is a plot because he trusts him so completely. And he is destroyed for that in the end. Like, absolutely destroyed.

Shan 

I actually love that reflection, NiNi. I think that's a really fair way to read it.

Bookworm 

I just want to quickly add that NiNi basically got Nie Mingjue’d into this. Like she basically did the same thing that Nie Mingjue did.

Shan 

[laughs] That's really true. Nie Mingjue, their other sworn brother, who goes along with trusting Meng Yao—even though he clearly doesn't—only because Xichen asks him to.

Bookworm 

And then he got his head chopped off for it!

NiNi 

He got got. [laughs]

Ben 

It's so fun watching people watch this show. NiNi's like, “ooh, I love this Dimples of Doom boy.” And I'm like, okay, she's falling for the dimples. And then he stabs the battalion commander in the middle of a battle. And NiNi's like, “oh, I guess I can't like this boy anymore.” [laughs]

NiNi 

Then he had a really good explanation for it. And I was just like, “okay, maybe I can.” This is the thing!

Shan

He's good at what he does.

Bookworm 

She saw that man stab the commander and then Mingjue called him into the room to throw him out of the sect, and do you remember what NiNi said? She said, “Can you at least treat this man for the stab wound before you throw him out of the sect?”

[all laugh]

NiNi 

By the end, I was like, no, you should have killed him. Banishment was too good. You would have saved a lot of people if you had just killed this man in that moment.

Ben 

I do not feel sorry for Xichen, because there were so many signs and he actively ignored all of them.

Bookworm 

Yes.

Shan 

We'll get into the second life arc, but like it took until the very, very end for him to accept, despite all the evidence he saw, despite everything he witnessed over two decades of being friends with this man. 

To be clear, Meng Yao, who becomes Jin Guangyao when he moves up in the world, he's married to a woman. But Xichen is basically in this hopeless love with him. They're both clan leaders. They cannot become a couple in a real way, because of their position in society. And because of that love, he is so susceptible to manipulation. He just believes whatever Meng Yao tells him, even if it doesn't make sense. He will believe Meng Yao's words over his own lyin’ eyes. 

Ben 

Wangji and Wei Wuxian: “We have evidence that this man is the most evil.” Xichen: “Okay, but have you considered that I love him? Jot that down.”

[all laugh]

Bookworm 

Oh, I hate him!

Shan 

That is exactly what it is! It’s so wild.

Bookworm 

Oh, my god.

NiNi 

That is not even an exaggeration, that is almost exactly how it goes down.

Bookworm 

I think it's a good connective theme between all three of these romances, that people have their own ways to separate the politics of the person that they like. And when they want to protect them, do they wanna choose diplomacy, do they wanna choose brute force, do they wanna choose compromise, what route do they take? You can see that Jiang Cheng, when he came to the proposal, he must know that that's not gonna happen. But you can see that there is this need to protect this woman who he knows is innocent. He also knows that he has this huge weight of clan politics, that he's now the clan leader and his clan is severely wounded and he has to make responsible choices to weigh between whether I choose my clan or whether I choose to do everything I could to protect this person, which is what I want to do in my heart.

My problem with Xichen is he doesn't really separate what the politics or the clan is going through and what Meng Yao is basically feeding him. You shouldn't be this gullible to a person who is basically another important figure in another clan that you know is doing just shady shit. You know they're having prisoners of war. You saw them use them for target practice. You saw them abuse the prisoners of war, beat them and kill them and all of that and this man is a part of that clan. Not just a part, he is pretty high up in the ladder. 

Ben 

He's also a known spy.

Shan

Yes!

NiNi

Exactly! Precisely!

Bookworm

I know! Exactly!

Shan

You're right, Xichen does not have an excuse. He witnessed this stuff with his own eyes.

Ben 

I don't care how prettily he blinks in frustration. He's stupid. [laughs]

NiNi

Bookworm, I found what you just said really entirely fascinating because I think that one of the reasons, then, that Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji works is that neither of them are directly in line to take over the clans. Wei Wuxian is an adoptee. He's not ever gonna take over the Jiang clan. So he does in some ways have to make his own way. And Lan Wangji is the second son. He also has to go his own way. So the politics for them, they're still the politics of clan loyalty and all of that, but they don't have the leadership responsibilities that all these other romances are involved with. 

So what they can do and particularly what Lan Wangji can do to protect Wei Wuxian is far beyond what any of the other romances can do to compromise, protect, whatever. Lan Wangji just basically decides, that's my man, and nobody's gonna touch him. Even when I am mad at him, even when I don't understand what he's doing, nobody is touchin’ that man, ‘cause that's my man.

01:10:06 - The First Life: Various Random Musings

Ben 

Before we leave the first life stuff, let's do a couple of quick hits. Favorite moments from the first life, starting with the school shit through the Battle of Nightless City.

Shan

My favorite moments tend to be tied to Wangji, of course, and his emotional landscape. So, the standout moments that feel really crucial to his character arc are where he reaches this emotional cliff that he falls over, and that happens for him several times. It happens when he is sitting with Wei Ying making a lantern—

Ben 

I knew she was gonna fuckin' say that.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan 

—and he draws him a rabbit on the lantern, which makes him smile. But the more important moment there is that he listens as Wuxian makes a vow for how he wants to live his life. And Wangji turns to him and looks at him like, “oh shit, I see you. I understand you now.” He agrees with the morality of the values that he holds. And that's a huge moment for him. They were in this stage where Wuxian was being a pest and Wangji was having his little gay panic and they were kind of adversarial with each other. And that moment really shifted things for him emotionally where he was like, “I understand him. We are actually on the same page about the things that matter. And I cannot go back to not knowing that.”

And then, as they have their adventures together and they get to know each other better, moments like in the cave with the tortoise, where Wangji kind of explicitly acknowledges his romantic feelings—not in a way that Wuxian can understand and receive, but he definitely does. And then the rain scene on Qiongqi Path, when he makes a choice to not stop Wuxian from leaving with the Wen prisoners of war, but also not join him. I think that was a huge moment for him where he came up against his own limitations about what he felt he could do for Wuxian. He was not actually willing to break from his clan and help him, but he didn't stand in his way. 

And then of course that all culminates in his attempts to bring Wuxian back into the cultivation world that ultimately go sideways because of the machinations of the Jins, and the moment where he is forced to let him go when he is falling off the cliff. That is the moment where his heart just shatters. And then, we'll pick up with him 16 years later and all his regrets.

Ben 

Alright, Shan, no crying yet. 

Shan 

I'm doing great.

Bookworm

Bookworm!

Bookworm

I will fight Shan for Lan Wangji if I have to.

NiNi 

I think we all will.

Shan 

Don't even try it.

Bookworm 

Most of my favorite moments will also be tied to Wangji. Shan already mentioned a lot of them, but we still have a couple. After we see Wei Wuxian lose his core, get thrown in the Burial Mounds and learn demonic cultivation, when he shows up in that Yiling supervisory office wearing red eyeliner and a black robe on—

Shan

It just naturally goes on, the evil spirits put the eyeliner on. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

It’s one of the many ghosts in the sword.

[all laugh]

Bookworm

Just full emo get up and gets his revenge on Wen Chao while Lan Zhan and Jiang Cheng is watching. That scene was very well depicted, it was very well shot, was very well acted. I really liked the tension of Lan Wangji realizing that something is different and you can see his heartbreak, you can see him calculating what's going on. You can see him just being so happy to finally see Wei Wuxian. He was gone for months and he just showed up in the middle of a war. And my man wanted to just, I don't know, grab him and kiss, but no, this guy wanted to murder. That was his first priority and it broke him. That is one of my favorite moments. I mean, obviously, I'm very normal. It's fine.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

There was the moment after the archery competition. Phoenix Mountain Hunt. We see Wei Wuxian just lounging in a tree and Lan Zhan shows up and they finally, finally have this conversation where they try to ease some of the tension that they've been holding because of Wei Ying’s, like, reticence to engage with Lan Zhan, when he asks what is wrong and Lan Zhan going insane basically trying to figure out what is happening with Wei Wuxian, why he's not following the sword path, why he has turned to demonic cultivation. I think that that is one of the iconic moments in the show and of course it has a whole discourse about the “soulmates” translation. 

Shan

I think the actual word is zhiji and it doesn't have a direct literal English translation. So, no translation is really capturing it correctly.

Bookworm 

But it was translated as, I think, soulmate for the show.

Shan

Lifelong bosom companion!

NiNi 

And they were roommates!

Ben 

He's my boon companion.

Bookworm 

I really liked that conversation and how it diffused a little bit of that tension that they were holding, and then of course everything goes to shit. But at least they were happy for a brief moment.

NiNi 

I think for me, there's three things that tie together into a line. The two caves and then when Lan Wangji meets Wei Wuxian in Yiling Town and he invites him to come back to the Burial Mounds for dinner.

Ben 

There were two caves! [laughs] Oh my god!

Shan 

There were, that's legit.

Ben 

Goddamn, there are a lot of caves in this fucking story.

Bookworm 

The caves belong to the gays. It is what it is.

NiNi 

I think those three points in the story form a very interesting line because the first cave is the Cold Pond Cave and they meet up with Lan Wangji's ancestor who developed the Lan clan's signature martial arts magic style and she basically explains to them their mission, what they have to do, this thing about the plot MacGuffin, the Yin Iron. But it's so interesting to me, when they came out of the cave, it's like Wei Wuxian instinctively understood that they don't tell anybody about what happened in the cave. I found that was an interesting change and dynamic to their relationship and also very gay. 

And then when they're trapped in the cave with the Tortoise of Slaughter—

Ben 

She really could not get over that fucking name.

NiNi

I could not. [Ben and Shan laugh] The Tortoise of Slaughter, okay. Yeah, so they're fighting this thing and Wei Wuxian basically goes into its shell and finds this sword which is the first step on the path to his demonic cultivation. Everything that happens from the moment he touches that sword took him directly to his break with all the clans and ending up in the Burial Mounds in the first place so that when they see each other after such a long time apart, after everything, and he's just like, “Hey friend, how are you? Come to dinner at my house. You're gonna go fight a monster? Fuck that. Come over.” It's, like, basically like the “Hey big head” text of all time. And I was completely into it. 

Ben 

Hold on, I just got triggered.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

NiNi 

It was such a romantic moment for me. You feel Lan Zhan's feelings the entire time, but it's really the first time that you feel Wei Wuxian's feelings for Lan Zhan and how they confuse him. He knows that he has these strong feelings and he wants Lan Zhan to be around him and in his life. But it's almost like, he doesn't know what to call it or at least he can't face what to call it.

Ben 

I like moments in the past where people's personal ethics and loyalty to people who have helped them directly makes them ignore the responsibilities they may have to their clan. So, the first one for me is when Wen Ning poisons his own clan to help Wei Wuxian rescue Jiang Cheng.

Shan

I knew it was going to be about Wen Ning. Ben loves Wen Ning.

Ben 

I really do. You mentioned him twice earlier and I held it in. 

Shan 

She did so good.

Ben 

That moment's earned. Because Wei Wuxian showed him regard and kindness earlier and he returned it in kind. 

The next big moment I like is Yanli's tantrum when she's like, you better keep my brother's name out your fucking mouth. Because that was really fun for a character who's been very reserved, who doesn't really challenge a lot of people. We have not really seen how all of the trauma they've survived directly impacted her. I really liked her in that moment, putting her foot down, like, “fuck you, I don't care.” You can see Wei Wuxian barely holding onto his control, and the only two things holding him back are his sister and his not-boyfriend. And then, like, within five episodes, neither of them will be present, and everything's gonna go to shit.

NiNi 

Yep, pretty much.

01:20:53 - Outro: Notes From the Future

Ben 

It's Ben and NiNi from the future! 

NiNi 

All the way in the future. So far in the future. 

Ben 

This episode is too fucking long. We're sorry, guys. We had a lot to say and we got Bookworm in the booth. It's also The Untamed. It's a very fucking long drama. So we're gonna take a pause here after the end of our discussion of Wei Wuxian's first life, and we'll pick up in the next episode with his second life. We appreciate you all for joining us. 

NiNi 

Yeah, we talk too much and so, there's gonna be two episodes. So see you guys in the next one! 

Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben

Peace! 

[httpiastri]

this took way longer than expected but im back!

quick warning: this ask is really really long so putting that separation banner thing might help but if not, i hope this doesn’t bother anyone who has this pop up on their dash 😞🙏 (and please don’t hate me if it does)

important timestamps in pepe’s stream:

0:33 — pepe smiles and waves

1:21 — idk what this is but it’s so cute

3:54 — he got embarrassed 😭😭

9:03 — this is just attractive tbh

12:38 — 😊😊 (but really though why is he so casually attractive this is so unfair)

16:03 — his laugh…

12:33 — praising his mum

18:13 — from “i’m so sad” (x3) to “just get good mate”

18:37 — chitter chatter

19:32 — laugh

20:15 — quick flex 🤭😋

30:25 — his inner dork shows up and starts rating pokémon for us

42:19 — quick drop of the f-word

43:05 — bro idk this is just so cute he looks like that one specific picture of an otter begging for food with its paws together 😭😭

51:55 — quick mention of an incident (or backstory?) regarding his name that he proceeds to not tell us about

53:09 — this isn’t really pepe but christian has such a stupid sense of humour and icl i laughed

1:00:40 — christian’s stupid humour shows up again and this si the exact kind of joke i’d laugh so hard at and make under very specific circumstances and PEPE’S laugh is just so endearing here i love him so much

1:02:38 — pepe is good at chess, according to christian. don’t know if this is true— i used to play too but i forgot the rules and my family exclusively plays checkers (everyone’s insanely good at it) so i currently have zero knowledge about chess.

1:04:32 — “too tall 😞😞” (again, not for me, because my head would be right at chest level, as you so perfectly put into perspective for me😋😋)

1:05:55 — “kimi was always perfect” talk by christian and pepe

1:07:07 — pepe’s upset, christian says exactly what i’d say to him (this is just sweet tbh)

1:09:40 — quick stretch 🥰🥰

1:10:58 — i might be biased but i just think he’s so good at explaining and putting into perspective what exactly happens/happened during the race for us non-drivers

1:11:20 — ^^

1:11:37 — also so endearing

1:12:50 — sportsmanship or whatever but i love that he’s so respectful towards everyone

1:13:38 — kendall jenner mention by christian, also don’t knowwhat it is about this moment but it made me feel something about their friendship with sebastian (i don’t know how to put this feeling into words but i think they are mostly positive feelings)

1:24:33 — quick little dance to gata only (why’s he literally doing my default dance though 😭😭) but it’s okay i just think it’s so adorable

1:25:25 — CORRECTION: he can bench 138kg… which is insane to me but also he can do 150 on leg press?? that’s like three of me bro that’s so scary (🥰🤭😍😊) to think about

1:27:10 — christian reacts to pepe’s fitness the way i would (insanely)

1:38:56 — driving driving 🏎️🏎️ (really long section where i wanted to stare at him but was also enchanted and captivated by the smooth driving)

1:50:16 — “that’s what they said” joke 🤨📸

1:54:55 — quick thumbs up and a smile (what a lovable sweetheart)

2:12:00 — quick 🫶 followed by him crossing his arms

i’m sure there are more significant moments than this (like when he accidentally launched a tomato at christian in their game ((this is significant to me because again, i have a really stupid sense of humour and laughed really hard at that too)) but this is all i recorded and they’re mainly significant because they made me feel things (🤥🤥)

okay that’s it, bye bye!! some of the timestamps at the start (ish) might be a little off and you might’ve already watched the entire video but i hope this was helpful for you and anyone who may come across this (tbh this wasn’t an entirely selfless endeavour but anyway)— until next time (if and when new pepe content is dropped)!

p.s. i hope you also have a lovely lovely day ahead jackie!!

- 🪷

i'm very late but omFG i love you so much? you're crazy good ????? this was such a pleasure to read and watch, thank u sm 😭💗

(ppl cant hate since its about pepe <3<3 sorry not sorry guys)

0:33 and 1:21 – such a gorgeous boy :(( i love him so much :(((( i also don't really understand what's happening at 1:21 but his smile and laughter after makes me melt

3:54 – HE'S SO EMBARRASSED LMAO WHAT A CUTIE ?? he just doesn't stop laughing, and the little blush on his cheeks... the way his voice changes and 😭

9:03 – he's SO attractive and for what? he's not even doing anything?? but the arms around the chair..... and like i'm a knuckle cracker and hand/finger stretcher as well so whenever he does it i just melt bcs i find it so hot :( also him when chris goes "ÖÖÖÖÖÖ" into the mic and then complaining about the music being so loud idK HES JUST SO CUTE DOING PRETTY MUCH NOTHING BYE���

12:38 – casually attractive is a very fitting term for him... how is it possible ???

16:03 – I WANNA SCREAM AND CRY ?????? no his smile is the most adorable thing ever. i rlly wanna make a pepe laughter compilation but then i would never do anything productive ever again....

16:33 – mum mention <3<3 boys who are appreciative of their mothers <3<3<3<3

18:13 – the switchup 😭 and also him emphasizing "so", like "i'm SO sad"....... and also also his laughter after it 😭 and when he does that kind of like chortle thing? like at the back of his mouth thing? idk what it's called in english, someone help????? idk it's adorable anyway

18:37 – my bestie translated for me but i still understood nothing 💔 HE SOUNDS SO CUTE THO like him speaking spanish is always so 💗

19:32 – BABYYYYYYY!!!!! he is the most adorable person ever, im not even kidding

20:15 – oh i'm totally okay, no worries 👍

30:25 – I LOVE THIS i have no knowledge of pokemons (that was an overstatement, i know stuff but i haven't played since i was like 10) but i love that sm, dorky boys >>>>> the way he speaks about them is so cute idc. also him saying that pokemon is a very important thing to him is so 😭

42:19 – i definitely did not clip this the second i first read through this ask.... no but like why was that so attractive 🫠🫠 not fair (also him apologizing for it?? b a b y)

43:05 – IM CRYING I KNOW JUST WHAT U MEAN BUT I CANT FIND IT 😭😭

adorable tho ^^

51:55 – why does he not say more about this?? wth??? can someone fill me in ??????????? (fits very well with something i've written for the college!pepe fic tho 🤭)

53:09 & 1:00:40 – i love chris :(( i love both of their senses of humor omg, and pepe's laugh yet again..... my heart is going crazy

1:02:38 – okay i actually know NO chess, like i know the rules but nothing else. i don't even like it usually, but pepe playing chess........ why is that attractive 🫠🫠 and being able to talk while doing it also? he looks so smart? and even doing speed chess???? waaaaaaah 😭 and chris praising him 🙃 (checkers is so cool tho, i do not know the rules but anytime i watch anyone play it im very impressed)

1:04:32 – not too tall for you 🥰 that makes me very happy 🥰 i used to have a thing for boys the same height as me but not anymore so pepe bby you're definitely not too tall <3<3

1:05:55 – i forget sometimes that drivers like them are around the same age as kimi and would've driven against him in karting lol, like i forget that even pepe and kimi are in the same category rn ?? idk life is just 😵‍💫😵‍💫

1:07:07 – "i'm always going to think you're doing a good job" 🥺 so relatable 🥺 also pepe's grin when he's being praised.......

1:09:40 – oh im alright, thanks for asking 🫡🫡 no issues, my heart definitely isn't going crazy

1:10:58 – oh yes definitely !! as someone who can't even drive a regular car, i still understand very well? and all of the details are so interesting, i love hearing them talk about it. being nerdy about the stuff you like is soooo attractive ??? idk maybe that's just me tho

1:11:37 – nyeoooommmm 🥺 baby

1:12:50 – love love love that, i feel like the two of them are quite often very honest in interviews and such? like when they went on the feeder series pod together, they had no issues criticizing stuff they don't like. and so like the same here, they aren't just saying this because they're friends with gabri i feel, it's just honesty and 🥺 it's very endearing

1:13:38 – that was so random 😭 also funny how he mentioned seb but didn't then think about the fact that seb was there and probs could've ran into her ?? 😭 but yea idk their trio friendship is so endearing idk

1:24:33 – more spanish making me weak in my knees even as im sitting down 😶 aND CUTIE DANCE!!!!!! god he rlly got my thoughts running... like listening to songs in spanish with him and dancing and him singing along and just ??? no i cant take it (ALSO PLS THATS SO CUTE KSDHFFK DANCE W HIM!!!)

1:25:25 – okay so like two days ago when i went to the gym, i was like "ain't no way pepe is gonna beat me in leg press" so i went and did 160kg just out of pure stubbornness 😶 i've never done over like 110 or 120kg but i was determined. however, i did *not* attempt to beat him in bench because i can only do max like 60kg LMAO so nope. but yeah it's definitely insane...... scary in a good way 🥰

1:27:10 – chris is very relatableeeeeeeeeeee 🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠🫠 gosh

1:38:56 – him driving is so...... also idk why i love the sight of him wearing gloves for the sim AAAAAAA like i know it's not an uncommon thing but still like... idk it's just attractive 😶 and him driving that smoothly and easily while also chatting???? stop it pepe im blushing-

1:50:16 – ......no comment

1:54:55 – prettiest baby boy in the world, i kid you not

2:12:00 – who allowed him to first be the cutest cutie ever and then cross his arms like that, eye-

again tysm!! this stream gave me new hope in life 😭 whenever i feel bad i just go and watch it and...... well yeah 🥺 hope you have a lovely lovely weekend darling!!!! <3<3

[verosvault]

🚨SPOILERS FOR FANTASY HIGH JUNIOR YEAR EPISODE 7🚨

Dimension20 "Fantasy High Junior Year"

Episode 7 "Stress Tested"

Timestamp: 00:36:06

Video Length: 4min. & 43sec.

Adaine gets a job at Basrar's! 😆😀

Brennan: "Who else knows what their DC 5, their first focus and priority's gonna be?"

Siobhan: "I'm gonna go job because up until now my academics are pretty good. So I can focus..."

Brennan: "You are not in danger of expulsion."

Siobhan: "Exactly. So, I can have one week where I dip a little bit."

Brennan: "Hell yeah."

Siobhan: "If I have to."

Brennan: "Let's see what the roll is."

Siobhan: "Omg, I thought that was a one. It's not. It's a seven. But plus four, which is an 11. Oy-yi-yi."

Brennan: "And what skill are you rolling for that?"

Siobhan: "Investigation."

Brennan: "Cool."

Murph: "You do have a bardic."

Ally: "The DC's five though, right? Didn't you totally pass 'cause you picked it for your first one?"

Brennan: "Yes, you did. So this-"

Siobhan: "I did, but I still, I need to get to 'well off' to not roll with disadvantage for my Academics. And 'well off' is a 25."

Lou: "What did you get?"

Siobhan: "11."

Murph: "Oh, okay. Yeah."

Siobhan: "I mean, I basically can only get a 25 if I crit because all of these skills, I don't have anything good in."

Brennan: "But you do have Bardic and if you want to re-roll." *tempts stress token and rattles the box* 😭✋

Emily: "Well, what about Divination rolls? I would think, especially with investigation."

Siobhan: "Well I- I rolled my Divination rolls."

Emily: "Oh, Okay."

Siobhan: "I used one. And the other one is also not very good."

Emily: "Okay."

Siobhan: "So, um..."

Ally: "Are you gonna re-roll or are you gonna add Bardic to that?"

Siobhan: "I mean, maybe I will use my Divination roll. So that brings me up to a 15. And then, I'll-"

Emily: "Can I also give you Bardic? So that your-"

Brennan: "I think we're gonna only allow one Bardic per."

Siobhan: "I'll use my Fabian bardic to see if I can-"

Lou: "It's a d8 now."

Siobhan: "Ooh!"

Siobhan: "Let's see if I can get it up to 20 at least."

Brennan: "Cool."

Siobhan: *rolls* "Nah."

Adaine to Fabian: "But thank you anyway. I appreciate your friendship."

Fabian: "Hey, you can always come by an get an espresso."

Adaine: "Thank you."

Ally: "You made a dollar."

Brennan: "Adaine, go ahead and roll two d10 and you get that many silver pieces."

Siobhan: "Okay."

Brennan: "As you do so, let me ask you. There are a couple different job opportunities. Part-time counseling at the student center. There's some other part-time work around. But you do see there's a job listing for a server at Basrar's."

Siobhan: "I mean, I'll do that. If I work at Basrar's can I get advantage on Popularity?"

Ally: "Ooooohhh."

Brennan: "We're actually gonna cut over and see this little scene. So, it's the first week of school. Like, I guess you head out. Basrar's is not too far from Mordred Manor. How do you like- what's going through Adaine's mind as you walk off to apply for a job at Basrar's?"

Siobhan: "I mean, I feel pretty good about it because me and Bastard already have a great relationship. I also have that thing of like, I really enjoy going to Basrar's. And so I'm like, 'So working there will also be great.'"

Brennan: "Yeah."

Siobhan: "So I think I'm going in very optimistic."

Brennan: "Basrar looks at you and says,"

Basrar: "Adaine, the Elven Oracle."

Adaine: "Hi!"

Basrar: "It is wonderful to see you."

Adaine: "Oh yeah, you don't have to- you can just call me Adaine. Actually I was wondering, I saw you had a part-time job available and I would really love to..."

Siobhan: "I just hand over my résumé, which is 'Elven Oracle' and then 'one week of working at Oodles of Strudel.'"

Basrar: "And do you have any references from Oodles of Strudel?"

Adaine: "Unfortunately, the entire mall was destroyed in a cosmic incident."

Basrar: "No email address or?"

Ally & Lou laughing 😂😂🤣🤣💀💀

Adaine: "No, unfortunately. No, and I actually- I was gonna say I could give you a reference for the Elven Oracle, but I actually don't know. I guess my sister. Yeah, I could- yeah, she's an elf."

Basrar: "Great. I'll give her a call right now." *waiting to hear the number*

Adaine: "Yeah. Great."

Basrar: "I don't have her phone number."

Adaine: "Oh. Yeah." *gives the number to Basrar*

Brennan: "He punches it in. You see him over in the corner."

Basrar: "Mmhmm. This is Basrar of Basrar's Soda Fountain calling for an application for a job for one Adaine Abernant. Just wanted to hear any reviews as her work of the Elven Oracle. Mmhmm." *continuous nodding*

Siobhan: "I start texting Aelwyn."

Adaine's text to Aelwyn: "What the **** are you talking about? What are you doing? Don't ruin this for me. I'm so broke."

Brennan: "You hit Send. A winky face comes back and he goes,"

Basrar: "Ha ha, a bit. Yes, very funny. Good. Yes, yes, yes."

Brennan: "You see he hangs up and says,"

Basrar: "Great, you can start working right away."

Adaine: "Oh, amazing. Thank you. Amazing."

Brennan: "All he has to do is summon ice cream. So it's an easy gig for him. It's just you carry it. He's like,"

Basrar: "Some of the ice creams have gotten very complicated and are hard to carry."

Brennan: "And there's like huge tureens and sundaes and boats of stuff."

Siobhan: "I'm so good at carrying things because I have a Mage Hand. So I'm doing a regular carry, but then my Mage Hand is also carrying three ice creams also."

Brennan: "Hell yeah."

[tiny-sassy-aggressive]

DAN AND PHIL REACT TO PHAN TWITTER REACTIONS w/ timestamps

.03 sir please don’t crack your hands in my ears.

.11 way to early in the video for a phude Jumpscare

.16 DIP AND PIP ?!!!??

.26 tbh shoutout to Phil for acknowledging that even tho we have fan accounts, not everything we say, create, post is something we would want them to see. Love the self awareness. Appreciate the space he provides

.35 rip Dan memes and tumblr tags

.56 I actually needed to be told I am gorgeous and intelligent, I knows it’s fake but it’s nice to hear even if fake

1.37 WHY IS HE **** ********* THE MIC N O NO NO NO NO WHAT??????

2.08 chill Phil we weren’t gonna fight about it. You’re Edward… OKAY

2.25 how many times are they going to watch pinof 1 ! Babes you can do that anytime you want not just on camera

2.37 Phil is in FULL CRISIS realizing how messy he is as if they haven’t already talked about this before

3.09 TUMBLR NEVER LEFT. YOU LEFT.

3.29 the synced lean in as they discovered the dan has something in his teeth bit was a video

3.40 SO SO SO GLAD THE SOCK VIDEO MADE IT. AND HES ACKNOWLEDGING

3.46 SHOES SOCK VIDEO JUMPS ARE😭😭😭

4.24 “keep reading” oh goodness that. Sir. Okay.

4.44 hi just realized is Dan wearing a muscle tank under the see through shirt????? Side note. Want the see through shirt

5.03 FANTASTIC FOURSOME JUMPDVARE

6.14 NO DAN NOT KATE THEY ARE LISTENINF. DONT BECOME INVOLVED IN ANOTHER ROYAL CONSPIRACY

7.41 absolutely fire meme. I laughed so loud I actually had to pause the video. Worst part? I had already reposted on twt yet still reacted to it

8.05 he is staring into my soul. Hell how is he staring THROUGH my soul

9.17 no words. “It’s not a bad look” alakakakak???

9.22 So suddenly it’s not “we” anymore, huh?

9.53 rip Phil’s slit😫

10.08 I just through Dan making a joke then immediately hitting Phil to let him know he was joking was really funny. Stuff I do with my friends I am tactile

11.46 I ALWAYS thought that image was edited to have all of them. I didn’t realize it was a real photos

12.38 OH MY FOS????? JUMPSVARE WHAT THE HELL

12:45 those pounds weee so aggressive. It sounded like they really hurt. I’m hurt listening

12:46 Phil is watching that monitor like a HAWK he is NOT losing monetization bc Dan wants to wap

13.00 Phil saw and saved this and nobody knew. He lurks. Nobody is safe.

13:36 about nine “what can I say”s in. Dan has a genuine look of terror and confusion. He looks like he’s playing up his reaction a bit in the beginning, laughing and stuff and acting annoyed but this point is genuine horror and realization. This is so gold. Will be giffing later. Also precious Phil

14.50 okay the editing kinda memes his monologue a bit but i was high key inspired. He’s so wrote. Everything is a story that must be concluded. I love that thought process. Clearly bc I am also a grade a yapper but still

15:50 oh the immediate IMMEDIATE regret in Phil’s face

16:35 we love a self aware king. The poster was a tad rough

16:56 THUS CIDEO AND COMMENTARY JS SO SO SO GOOD

17:38 YES THANK YOU THE WADVERT WAS RVEFHONE. We couldn’t eat sleep or think without seeing it

18:11 please wash your blanket? Guys? Like? You can clean, wash, or dry clean anything. Please?

19:00 tbh saw under the robbing blanks and it wasn’t even that bad? Compared to every horrific demon phannie thing that has been seen? Not bad! Could have been worse

19:45 2021 period???? Hello??? You were gone since 2018? At least from dapg??

20:44 yet???? Capitolestor strikes again

20:50 did they not have a keep calm and something on poster in their apt at one point??? Some people?? You mean you???

21:16 I SAW THIS WHEN IT DROPPED. love dami sm. This video was so good

22:24 JUMPSCARE

22:55 “1992” “Daniel” calm down

23:25 “you also let me” guys??? How is this forced situation? Who decided??

24:20 he needs to back away from the mic I can feel him breathing in my ears my goood ess??

24:34 I’m screaming bc they used a clip from the section before we all thought they got high. This section they posted was just a cute section

24:54 literally speechless. Also jumpscare?

26:30 the entire dan induced conclusion is beautiful I love them and their banter

26:54 nvm can you lean into the mic closer and tell us you’re proud again??? Needed that???

[stabbysideblog]

BBH’s Prison visit (scene-by-scene)

(To make things easier I’m going to put the timestamp for the END of each scene I talk about)

Link to the vod 

Very long post warning! This is going to center on Dream so if you aren’t into that don’t click the read more. 

28:46 - Bbh comes up to Dream and even walks past him a bit before Dream turns and starts moving again. This is our first sign of him being spacey. After he says hello he takes a deep breath. This sounds like the type of breath you take to calm down. 

29:14 - We can hear how Dream’s voice is different even from the last time we heard him. To make sure I checked Tommy’s vod and it is completely different. He speaks slower, with more spaces, less enunciation, sometimes there’s a slight slurr to his voice. Bbh asks how he’s doing and he replies and goes to spin his clock. I don’t know how intentional this is but BBH asks what he’s doing and Dream stops and looks at the floor instead of at BBH. 

29:33 - Bbh asks if spinning his clock is what Dream does in his free time and Dream says yes. He used to write but he burned a lot of his books. He doesn’t say why. We can assume based off what he said he doesn’t write anymore. That means all he has to do is spin his clock round and round. After BBH opens the chest 6 spaces are empty. One book is on the lectern. He assumedly burnt all the books Tommy made him write. Why? He never elabirates on this so we don’t know

29:52 - Bbh asks if Dream likes it in here and Dream takes almost 3 seconds to respond. He describes it as “really good”. Before while bbh is talking about the cell he doesn’t say anything. He looks at the lava but doesn’t move towards it.

30:11 - Dream talks about how he gets potatoes :] But they’re raw :[. He goes close to the lava but comes back to talk to bad. Also whenever he walks he runs. Dream is notoriously very active, he bounces around he can’t do that in the cell so instead he runs from place to place. “he said he- I tried to get out and so he made it so I couldn’t have visitors for a few days but” He completely drops the potatoes conversation to say that then drops this conversation. 

30:47 - Bbh tells Dream that he’s done bad things that got him in there. Dream doesn’t argue he simply repeats “that’s true”. He also says he gets to “think and think and think... and play with my clock”. In that sentence he looks at the damage pot dispenser then plays with his clock. 

31:36 -  When Bbh asks if Dream wants to hear what’s going on outside he perks up somewhat and asks how George and Sapnap are doing. He remarks after bbh says they probably miss that they haven’t visited him. He then makes a reason for it because there were a few days he couldn’t get visitors. Bbh accidentally rubs in that they haven’t come by at all and Dream goes and spins his clock for 31:24 - 31:33. He says nothing in this time, then he asks what’s happening outside. 

32:41 - While bbh talks about that’s going on outside Dream spins his clock, he stops to chuckle at what Tommy’s up to. Bad says he’s sure a lot of people miss Dream while Dream is turned around and Dream snaps to attention looking at bad. He laughs at Techno “still doing the whole anarchy thing” then asks for a 3rd time what is happening outside. He goes back to spinning his clock while Bbh talks. At this point it’s very obvious how much Dream uses the clock. It’s like he relies on it. 

33:28 - Bbh talks to Dream about  the egg. He simply says “I remember the egg” and “that’s intresting” before going back and spinning his clock. “I don’t really have anything else other than the clock”. That’s sadly true. As far as he knows everyone hates him, he’s lost everything. The only thing he has left is his clock. Bbh asks if he’s named it and he has but he doesn't want too say the name. Instead of that he just keeps spinning it.

34:29 - Dream takes out at book and starts writing in it. Bbh asks what he’s writing but Dream doesn't reply simply giving bad the completed book. It’s titled “thank you!” and the inside says “thank you for visiting me badboyhalo!” Dream tells bad he won’t be able to take it out. Bbh says that once Dream gets out he can take it with him. Dream doesn't reply and spins his clock. If you haven’t noticed how much he uses this clock you’re blind. He says that his sentence is forever when bad asks. “Forevers not that long” Way to rub it in bad. At least Dream chuckles a little.

35:40 - Bad tells him he likes what he’s done with the place before realizing how that sounds. Dream moves his clock to the other side of the room. “I like to watch it and then when it hits halfway *pause* then *pause* then I’m happy”. Note that in this chunk Dream is particularly bad at replying to bbh. They watch the clock move together. Dream says that it was “awesome” he seems to not have been the biggest fan of redecotaring because he moves his clock back to it’s original location. 

36:43 - Dream makes a sound like when you are sad and have to take a breath before you start crying. He says that he doesn’t know what else he’s supposed to do. Bad mentions that Dream has a heat source. From that we can assume that Dream’s tiny prison is pretty darn hot. He also asks how long he’e been in there suggesting that he has lost track of time. That’s pretty common in people who are in solitary confinement. Bad gives a timeline of a few weeks to 2 weeks. For reference the United Nations says solitary confinement for more than 15 days is torture. 

37:20 - Bad asks who’s come and visit Dream, Dream says only Tommy and bbh is surprised. Dream remarks that “he’s the only one actually, until you” and goes to stand close to the lava. He goes close to it a second time while he justifies no one visiting by saying there’s limited visiting hours and overtime more people will (come visit). 

38:18 - Dream tells bbh about the #epic prank he does on Sam where he burns his clock so he can see Sam and say hi. The clock that he’s spent most of his visit spinning. So he can see someone else. I wonder if Sam decided not to give Dream another clock what else he would do to get Sam to visit. Bbh asks if he gets in trouble for burning his clock and Dream says sometimes he gets less potatoes. 

"oh so he starves you"

 "no I'm not s- I dunno- I wouldn't say I'm starving but-" 

"you have 3 square meals a day?" 

"........... i have potatoes"

The concerning parts are how much he stumbles over his words and the I wouldn’t say I’m starving. What would you say you are then? 

39:38 - Dream chuckles and throws his clock into lava. It’s gone now. Let’s see if he acts any different. Dream moves around a bunch while talking about what will happen later, you can hear his chuckle and smile at his ‘prank’. Dream tells bad that Sam is going to make a system so that the potatoes are dropped in so he doesn't have to see him to give him potatoes. Bbh says that he should keep sam from doing it because doesn’t it brighten his day? Dream admits it does but everything here is automated so it’ll make it better. Bbh asks if awesamdude treats Dream well and Dream says he does while he keeps glancing at the lava.

40:28 - Dream sniffles and tells bbh that it’s fine in here. He has his clock and his book and,,, he’s happy in here...right? He finishes off that sentence by sniffling and clearing his throat. All signs point to him not being happy in here. Where before he would spin his clock now he,,,, tries not to cry. Bbh asks if he’s allowed to have anything else, Dream tells him he can ask. While bbh talks about how maybe he could get a potted plant he sniffles again. Dream is obviously upset but he does as Dream does and says he’s okay and things are fine. 

42:00 - Bbh asks who Dream wants to come visit him, he says that he wants george and sapnap to come visit him. Bbh accidentally makes it sound like they don’t want to visit Dream, he says that they probably just need to be reminded that Dream is available for visitors. Dream takes 4 seconds to reply and it’s just a sad “yea”. Bbh tells him to look on the bright side and Dream just looks at the floor. I think that he knows that George and Sapnap don’t like/hate him. He also takes awhile to reply to Bbh saying that he’s been on good behavior right? If that’s because he hasn’t or because Sam’s idea of good behavior is hard for Dream we don’t know. 

42:51 - Dream throws himself into lava and Bbh reacts with horror yelling at him what is he doing? He says that sometimes he swims in there. What exactly made him decide to swim in the lava? Maybe him remembering how he he lost his friends, maybe him realizing he’ll never be free, maybe he was bored? We don’t know. What we do know is in this cell healthy coping mechanisms do not exist. They aren’t allowed to exist by nature of it. He tells bab that going into the lava keeps him entertained and sometimes he likes to set himself on fire with it. He demonstrates this and while bad asks if it’s a prank he just chuckles. This demonstrates how in the cell he’s willing to put himself physically into harms way for any more stimulation. It’s sad honestly. 

44:12 - Dream says that bbh’s time is probably almost up and thanks him for visiting him. Bbh says he wants to get Dream a pet and improve his living conditions. Dream talks about how long it takes to break a block, he once sat there for over 20 minutes with basically no progress. He helped design the prison and knows that if he broke a block the guard would be teleported in (and kill him). He realizes if bbh becomes a guard it could be a way to get him to come visit him :D he’ll simply punch a block for hours until it breaks so the people tasked to kill him can be there. Dream is desperate for human contact. He realizes that would make awesam really mad and he doesn’t want to do that. 

44:35 - Bbh says maybe he can get his sentence commuted from forever to 10 or 20 years. Dream says he’d like that if he has good behavior. I can’t help but feel noones idea of good behavior is lining up. Sam wants to think and see Dream as little as possible. Dream, I don’t know what Dream considers good behavior. Bbh sees good behavior as not trying to escape or messing with anything. Bbh says he doesn't wanna get Dream’s hopes but but Dream should look in the bright side. Dream sniffles and clears his throat. As this goes on it gets harder for him to not cry it seems. Bad tells Dream to look on the bright side and Dream says alright in a way that obviously suggests he wont. 

45:43 - Bad says that he’ll come visit Dream again really soon. He says he’ll bring George and Sapnap, Dream reminds him only 1 person can visit at a time. Bad says then he’ll schedule for them to visit. Bbh alost saays that they need to visit their friend but instead says they need to visit you (Dream) instead. From Dream’s POV this celents that they don’t care for him anymore. Bbh ends his visit and Dream somehow sounds more dejected than ever. 

50:42 - Sam while HOLDING a clock says that he might not give Dream a new clock. It also doesn’t matter whether Dream knows if it’s daytime or not. Bbh seems to have picked up how important the clock is to Dream. Sam also asks if Dream “said anything(????)” while he was in there. He also says that Dream swims in a lot a lot and usually he just wants attention. Sam also says with the way Dream has been acting that he probably won’t get his sentence commuted.

 Overall very concerning! From the way Dream relied on an inanimate object and the moment it was he started sniffling, to how he talked and sounded different, to how he swims in lava and sets himself on fire for fun, to how he’s starved if he misbehaves, to how he was spaced out and slow to respond. This all paints a picture of someone not doing well but pretending he isn’t. If he were to not get a new clock, and sam installs the automated potatoes machine I feel like he would get worse much faster. Unless bbh gets on that prison reform fast it’s not looking good for him. Not even getting on how the warden of the prison hates his guts. 

[gcldenrule-archived]

PARTIAL TRANSCRIPTS OF INTERVIEW WITH O’CONNELL, WILLIAM. DATED: 31 JANUARY 1998, 1:44 PM EST.

REMARKS: Compassionate and a career teacher, O’Connell seems to be a good fit with the students, and his nature seems to fit the skills that we need for our faculty at the Institute. Healing is a good plus, but his mutant ability is moderate at best. However, he’s willing to learn, and given the rambunctious nature of the students here, he’ll have ample opportunity, between breaking up fights and dealing with accidents. Hopefully he never has to use it in any widespread capacity, but that’s simple optimism. Further correspondence with the teacher will be noted with the codename TRIAGE.

TIMESTAMP: 00:02:45 - 00:04:11

XAVIER: This is a taxing job, Mister O’Connell. I know that you have your fair share of realization regarding mutant children, seeing as you have your own in our care, but I cannot stress enough how much these children will depend on you.

O’CONNELL: I know, sir. Making decisions lightly—big decisions like this, it isn’t my speed.

X: Are you ready to be not just their teacher, but their confidant? Their mentor? Even another father to some of them?

O: Isn’t that just being a teacher after all? If I’m not doing that, well, sorry sir, I’m simply not doing my job well.

X: Oh?

O: Lot of the kids I’m leaving behind need the same thing too, and I don’t like tooting my own horn, but I’d like to think I helped a lot of them out like I will yours.

X: Admirable of you to say that. Educators—well, they shape minds, for good and for ill.

O: I just hope I do more good in my life than ill, either way.

X: Doesn’t everyone? Alright, moving on, [...]

TIMESTAMP: 00:12:15 - 00:15:33

O: [...] really close to my kid too. I live in Silverhouse and I like being near her, but I hope that with the new job, I think a house in Cedarworth would be in the sights. 

X: Why not stay here, in the Institute?

O: I—well..

X: Speak plainly, Will. It’s no fault of mine or yours where you want to reside, but I just want to know.

O: There’s too many people, if I’m going to be honest. It’s more situational, and I’ve wanted a house that me and Gabby can call our own. She’ll have her room in the Institute if she wants; she made so many friends here, but I’d like her to have a nicer one.

X: And why didn’t you simply take the offer before?

[O’CONNELL is silent for a moment, looking down at his hands and takes a breath.]

O: Can I—

X: I already said you can speak plainly, Will. Go on.

O: Okay.

[A silence stretches on for a minute or so, before O’CONNELL speaks.]

O: I think I wasn’t ready. I used to say that I wanted to stay for the kids that I had there, you know. Like it was a mission. A holy calling. Still is, but I’m not going to lie, I think I wasn’t ready to be around that many people. That many mutants.

O: You know from my file that I divorced when Gabby was born, yeah? I had to learn how to be a parent on my own, then with help from some of your folks. Then the job. God save me, I don’t think I deserved it. Not really. Then, I didn’t think I could be around that many mutants without thinking about one of the worst days of my life.

O: I won’t make any excuses, sir. But if you want my reason, there’s the long and short of it.

X: That’s a big admission.

O: I’m a big guy.

TIMESTAMP: 00:45:12 - 00:45:58

X: [...] if you were to take this job, Will. The policies wouldn’t be for someone of your skill set, but I would ask you to keep this in mind.

O: Healing?

X: Yes. Just know that some of our students can be volatile, as is the case with any maturing person, and may not have the sharpest grasp on their own abilities.

O: I understand; I did take care of Gabby alone for a while, right?

X: That you did.

O: I don’t think I’ll be remiss in saying that I’ll be, uh, equipped to handle the job with my ability. I heal plenty fast anyways.

X: Of course.

O: Just keep Nic close by, alright?

[O’CONNELL and XAVIER laugh together.]

TIMESTAMP: 01:00:12 - 01:09:58

X: I appreciate that you’ve finally considered taking a position here, Will.

O: It isn’t an easy decision, lemme tell you. My kids are all bummed to see me go; every time they ask I’ve got half a mind to tell them I’m gonna be staying ‘til May.

O: Got the sub, though, so everything’s a little clean if I ever get the job.

X: Mister O’Connell, I have one final question for you.

O: I did say—

X: Yes, of course. Will.

[A long pause settles between them, O’CONNELL grows uncomfortable and shifts in his seat, perturbed.]

X: There are a great many things that would do this school harm, Will. As you are aiming to be a teacher here, and more importantly a father with a vested interest in your daughter’s well-being, would you defend this school?

O: Of course.

X: Would you fight for it?

[The long pause on O’CONNELL’s end continues. It stretches to around three minutes, not looking at XAVIER. When he finally speaks, there’s a sense of finality to it.]

O: I don’t have any experience, sir. But I’m willing to learn.

X: Alright.

[A slow smile spreads across XAVIER’S face, kind and warm.]

X: We’ll be happy to have you as part of the faculty, Will.

O: Oh? I—oh!

X: Yes, oh.

O: You won’t—oh wow, you won’t regret this sir! I’m going to be—I gotta tell Gabby the news! I can’t believe it!

[O’CONNELL stumbles against the coffee table and bangs his knee as he goes to shake XAVIER’S hand. The Professor chuckles as he does so, amused by the current turn of events. O’CONNELL exits, almost with glee.]

[END TRANSCRIPT.]

[lemonietrinket]

nct/wayv masterlist

number of works: 48+

begun: 20/08/2019 last updated: 11/12/2020

key

request ✤ musical ♫ halloween/spooky ☾ christmas ❅ oddball ♧ idol birthday present ✧

��� ⚘᠂ ⚘ ˚ ⚘ ᠂ ⚘ ᠃

drabbles

Not the Reason ||| Taeil x Reader ✧ ||| fluff, mild angst ~ taeil finally admits something small, and maybe its a step towards the biggest confession of them all

Arms ||| Johnny x Reader just fluff ~ sleepy cuddling with johnny

Pro Gamer ||| Taeyong x Reader ✧ ||| fluff lol ~ playing animal crossing with your boyfriend, and hes not having a lot of luck

00:13 ||| Taeyong x Reader timestamp ||| angst mostly, fluff ~ late at night you hit a depressive spiral after feeling very ignored by your friends

Yuta x Insecure!Reader angst, reassurance fluff ~ because of your insecurities with your body, you make sure youre never as physically close to your boyfriend as much as you want to be. yuta wants to fix that ~ warnings: body insecurities (kept vague, but focusing around chest and stomach), general feelings of upset, tears, swearing (1x f**k)

Epilogue ||| Kun & Reader smutty undertones, lil fluff ~ prequel to ‘Candy Baby’, involves a soft, embarrassed and ultimately curious kun, and an accidentally nosey reader

Peace ||| Kun x Reader big fluff ~ waking up with kun is great—but you know what is also good? falling right back asleep again

Victory ||| Ten x Reader fluff, humour ~ sad ten wants cuddles and mean reader wont give him any

Merigold ||| Jaehyun x Reader angst with tiny fluff ~ when buying flowers for your date, you end up falling in love—with the wrong guy

Safe Haven ||| Mark x Reader big fluff ~ while waiting for your boyfriend to come home, you sit curled up on the sofa, stuck on the edge of sleep

Catgroove - Parov Stelar ||| Hendery x Reader ♫ ||| humour ~ pranking hendery with a classic

Pair ||| Jaemin x Reader ✤ ||| solid fluff ~ you wait for your boyfriend to come home so you can spring a surprise

reactions

How NCT would comfort you after a bad day fluff, bit of angst, some curse words ~ kind of just what it says on the tin

How NCT 127 would react to accidentally hurting you fluff, some tiny spicier elements, but they’re so mild, attempts at humour, tiny bits of angst in some? ~ scenarios in this are only very small things, and are mostly he members being clumsy/forgetting to be a bit careful in normal everyday situations—no one gets really hurt!

How NCT Dream would react to you getting the hiccups pure fluff, humour

Small Displays of Affection in Domestic Life with Dream pure fluff and bad humour 

oneshots/imagines

Stay ||| Taeil x Reader fluff ~ boredom strikes you in your tired state, leading you to think back on the night before

Dreams Come True ||| Johnny x MakeupArtist!Reader ✤ ||| fluff, small angst if you squint, some more inferred heated elements ~ johnny is kind to all the members of staff, and so you believe that he thinks no differently of you

Kestrel ||| Johnny x Reader ♧ ||| wistful angst, fluff ~ youre on the cusp on a huge change in your life, but a part of you cant let go, and youre not sure how youre supposed to

Lie to Me ||| Johnny x Reader subverted angst, fluff, smutty undertones ~ you and johnny dont agree on everything. and this time neither of you are great at backing down

Save A Nation ||| Johnny x Reader ❅ ||| humour, lil fluff ~ unistudent!johnny knows how hot he is. oh he knows. he also knows that a certain someone has had a crush on him for a very long time. and he also knows youre not confident enough to address it. but this is the catch for you, you see: because he is

Candy Baby ||| Yuta x Reader ❅ ||| lil fluff, humour, lil smutty undertones ~ you and your boyfriend are shopping at a special lingerie store. though not for the reasons that anyone may first expect…

Entranced ||| Yuta x Reader fluff, lil smutty undertones ~ waking up in yutas arms in the morning, bc who doesnt want that

Mishap ||| Yuta x Reader humour, lil fluff? ~ yuta is not known for his woodwork skills. he is also not particularly known for any common sense that would also come with it. however, good things can be made of the worst scenarios, and yuta is not completely inept—no matter what winwin tries to assert.

Cosiest Place on Earth ||| Kun x Reader big fluff, some humour ~ where Kun is relaxing in peace, and a certain someone decides its a prime time to ‘annoy’ him 

Home ||| Kun x Reader ❅ ||| big fluff ~ just cuddling with your long-time boyfriend after a busy day with the rest of wayv

Snow Drift ||| Kun x Reader ❅ ||| fluff, humour ~ going sledding with your boyfriend, what can possibly go wrong?

A Good Reason to Break the Law ||| Doyoung x Reader humour, fluff ~ doyoung does love you. and you wouldnt really call yourself a rule-breaker. yet you always find a way to worry him—which isnt particularly difficult, if you were honest

Baby Baby ||| Doyoung x Reader ♧ ||| fluff ~ a long day out leaves both you and bf!doyoung exhausted, and though its nowhere near over yet, you at least you have each other

Dinosaur ||| Doyoung x Reader fluff, humour, heated elements ~ doyoung was worried to meet your family, but he needn’t have been

Definitions ||| Doyoung x Reader ❅ ||| fluff ~ you’re studying with doyoung after returning home for christmas

Fail-Safe ||| Ten x Reader ❅ ||| big fluff ~ cuddling late at night with your slightly clumsy boyfriend

Aster ||| Jaehyun x Reader ✤ ||| fluff, mildly heated elements ~ just some calm, soft times in bed with a very shirtless jaehyun

Ladder ||| Lucas x Reader ❅ ||| humour, fluff ~ you love your bf lucas, you really do. but sometimes, his chaotic tendencies led him into all kinds of trouble. and you never, ever laugh at him. totally. not even when he puts himself in a compromising position. not even once.

Spirit ||| Xiaojun x Reader ✤ ||| fluff, little bit of sad ~ bed cuddles with your boyfriend after a hard day

Look Down ||| Mark x Reader angst, bits of fluff ~ mark invites you to a pretty bridge at sunset to finally confess to you

Ready ||| Mark x Reader ✧ ||| fluff ~ first time hand-holding with a shy, slightly awkward bean

Beautiful Like the Moon ||| Jeno x Reader ✧ ||| fluff ~ moongazing with your boyfriend to celebrate the end of his birthday

Strength ||| Jeno x Reader fluff ~ even with a cold you cant be stopped, and jeno loves you all the more for it

Sun vs Sun ||| Haechan x Reader humour, fluff ~ playful times out camping with hyuck and the others. but mainly hyuck.

Lung Crusher ||| Johnny x Reader x Haechan ✤ ||| fluff, humour ~ after a long day, you and johnny are peacefully dozing on the sofa. you expected the two of you would be left alone, but youd be wrong

Loved ||| WayV x Reader ✤ ||| big sad, big fluff, big humour ~ everyone needs to be taken care of sometimes, no matter how strong they are. and so when you come home from an awful day in the outside world, you are blessed to have several people come and pick you up again, setting you back on your feet ~ long fic ~ - NOTE: this is the old version of a new multiparter fic seen below, named Love. This version, Loved, will not be edited or updated but will be kept up for the slightly different series of events that it follows in comparison to its new version.

multi-parters

The Code ||| Doyoung x Barista!Reader slight angst, some fluff, mostly a mystery ~ doyoung has a thing for a barista at the best cafe in town, and after finding out the boss there is super strict, he counts his chances out. however, a bizarre set of events lead to an opening for someone clever enough to take it, and luckily his heart has chosen well. Part One ~ where doyoung remembers a special moment and confesses much to his own regret Part Two - coming soon ~ where doyoung begins to find strange numbers on his averley recyclable cups

King and Lionheart ||| King!Jungwoo x RoyalKnight!Reader ♧ ||| angst, fluff ~ inspired by the song of the same name, jungwoo is your king who you serve with your life, and you are his beloved knight in shining armour Part One ~ where you flee with nothing but the clothes on your backs and one another Part Two - coming soon ~ where you fight

Love ||| WayV x Reader ✤ ||| reader big sad, lots of fluff, quite a bit of yearning & foreshadowed drama Main Story ~ everyone needs to be taken care of sometimes, no matter how strong they are. and so when you come home from an awful day in the outside world, you are blessed to have several people come and pick you up again, setting you back on your feet. though, not everything is as a clear cut as you perhaps once thought ~ long fic ~ - slow updates - Ending One - Kun - coming soon . Ending Two - Ten - coming soon . Ending Three - Sicheng - coming soon . Ending Four - Lucas Extra Special fluff, soft angst ~ ft jungwoo & reader; you and xuxi have an impromptu slumber party where your feelings are finally admitted to one another with the accidentally prompting on jungwoo’s behalf . Ending Five - Xiaojun Jigsaw Puzzle fluff, bit of humour ~ after finding the hedgehog’s plastic bowl broken, you and xiaojun head to the pet store to buy a new one . Ending Six - Hendery - coming soon . Ending Seven - Yangyang - coming soon

Camping ||| NCT 127 & WayV x Reader fluff, some spicier elements sometimes ||| choose-your-own-story Start - in progress: 9,575 words collectively so far - - slow updates - ~ where you go camping with nct 127 & wayv, and end up in the most boring tent after dark during a small storm

extra

Vibe Checking NCT ~ don’t ask just read

[reynie-muldoons]

'Depends on the Wagon' liveblog!

I saw someone do timestamps in their liveblog and it was absolutely lovely, so I think I'll try that too

1:55 why does Curtain sound like an mlm ceo LMAO

2:07 WOW ASSHOLE 😂😂 waving off your own teacher when he was complimenting you is not the vibe

2:17 so Dr. Curtian is only available through chain emails. Got it.

2:27 he seems like the kind of asshole to say that people on welfare are lazy and exploitave but then like, not pay his taxes

2:42 I DON'T LIKE HOW HE SAID THAT, THAT WAS CREEPY

2:47 oooooh Constance, always asking the right questions

3:05 Kate, why are you yelling, it's literally past curfew 😂

3:35 oh hai Jackson.. gtfo

4:22 oh yeah, the best way out is through the hallway that Jackson just entered. Good plane, babe.

4:25 soooo Kate Depending On Friends arc :)

4:59 AYYY HI RHONDA!!

5:13 why do I kinda fucking love then all deciphering the Morse code together

5:20 so the kids use the gemini riddle? Not the adults???

5:36 his face when he figures it out 😭😭😭

5:46 Nathaniel? Guess that's Dr. Curtain's name now. Less ridiculous than Ledroptha, but you dont get the badass Let Drop the Curtain reference

6:53 okay so no one knew he had a brother? But he did???

7:21 his faaaace 🥺

7:29 AWWW HE COULDNT BRING HIMSELF TO SHARE 😭😭😭 okay I'm kinda on board with the change if they can make it work in the long-haul

7:42 hi Milligan, good timing 😂

7:56 "not the time.........I'll take a dozen" Number Two my LOVE

8:23 interesting. I dont think Mr. Benedict was adopted in the books? He certainly didn't let Violet's family, the Hopefields, because he knew their financial troubles would be even worse. So who?

8:54 ohhhh dear, stages of grief at work. Maybe don't do that

9:05 I talked about this in the MBS discord server, but I think the show is really nailing Mr. Benedict's feelings. He's always been an emotional person, but he has to be so careful. Bottling up your feelings only leads to bigger feelings later. It makes so much sense for Mr. Benedict to be a whirlpool of strong, repressed emotions.

9:11 MILLIGAN'S FACE JAHAHS

9:34 RHONDA'S FACE HAGSKDGDJ

9:40 Mr. Benedict, sweetheart 🥺❤

10:01 "brothers stick together" why does it sound like he's talking about Reynie here 😭😭😭😭

10:12 that is a good ass point, Mr. Benedict already lied to them once

10:21 it makes sense for Sticky to be the one questioning the most because of his anxiety, but damn

10:46 AWWWWWW

10:56 KATE MAKING A BED FORT KATE MAKING A BED FORT KATE MAKING A BED FORT

11:00 I dont like how aggressive Kate is but it makes sense considering she's been in the circus for years, taking care of herself for far longer than she hasn't. She's not good at depending on people, and she's not good with difficult people.

11:10 Yeahh, Constance gets it!

11:40 Yeahhh, Constance gets it

12:55 that teacher seemed pretty nice last episode, nice to see that they're not what they seem just the same as Dr. Curtain lol

13:28 CONSTANCE I LOVE YOU 😂😂

14:00 "check again" okay so Krista from the tests and Martina give off the same vibe.. perfect 😂

14:16 "yeah......hang in there :D"

15:05 all of the apologies to the general class.. he's such an anxious sweetheart. He's really reading as autistic to me.

My sister just called me 😑 it's like 8 am, I answered her like "did you ever consider that you might be waking me up?" She did not consider that 😂

15:22 Martina's face just growing more and more annoyed and disgruntled HAHA

15:29 that was CORRECT?? WHAAAA

15:51 throwback to when I compared Dr. Curtain to an mlm ceo.. definitely like a cult

16:44 ohhhh Martina

17:30 CONSTANCE HEARING VOICES HELLOOOOO

18:22 ayyyyyy helper man

18:40 he seems too cheery to be a helper .-. The helpers all being super sad made [redacted]'s story make a whole lot more sense

19:35 aaaand now we get to it. You know, it really does seem a lot more cultish on screen than in the book

19:53 WAIT CONSTANCE GOOD JOB PUTTING THE PIECES TOGETHER 😂😂😂😂

19:53 that cut to Milligan making that exact face was INCREDIBLE

20:05 was he tryna leave? Yeah, good fuckin luck bucko

20:10 "critical papers at home" my ass, they packed everything up

20:24 the stages of grief back at it. 🥺

20:38 their relationship >>>>

21:00 "located in the..?" *description of envelope* "located in the....?" *more description* "located in the????" 😂😂😂😂

21:34 ohhhhh Thursday must be the student ranking day

21:56 Martina seems like the kind to throw out "pick a god and pray" as a crit quote 😂

22:07 I don't see any of the Society'a names on the list. Maybe they havent been there long enough

22:17 OH SHIT JK THERE THEY ARE

22:25 ohh Kate and Constance

22:55 the combination of the ferry horn and the bell makes it weirdly grim

23:55 them bringing Kate up and reminding her that she's needed 😌✨

24:29 hi Milligan bb ilyyyy

24:35 real good lookout guys, y'all are so well hidden

24:52 AYY HE'S DOING IT KATE STYLE

26:31 "visionary" is a word for it

26:31 I really kinda love that Number Two and Rhonda are going to such depths to try and help Mr. Benedict figure this out for sure

26:56 Mr. Benedict fully walking away while they talk about his brothers accomplishments 😂 I'm laughing, but poor guy

27:08 his FACE 🥺

27:28 HERE'S THAT TANTRUM FROM THE TRAILER

27:28 take your guesses how many times will he fall asleep

27:50 "he just has to work through some things" you dont fuckin say

27:55 you mean to tell me he had a full blown meltdown and they didn't show him falling asleep once??

28:35 like father like daughter 😌✨

29:10 ayyyy secret desk compartment

29:19 honestly I'm surprised there were actually papers he needed and it wasnt an excuse to go confront Dr. Curtain

29:32 oh shit, how'd they manage to get that far inside? No one was there to guard it, but the maze itself is a security measure

29:42 KATE STYLE STRIKES AGAIN

29:47 ooooh I like Dr. Curtain's office

30:01 WAS THAT SQ AND DID HE JUST CALL DR. CURTAIN HIS DAD

30:41 birds have careers. Got it 😂

30:50 JOURNAAAL

31:02 the fox?? Reynard the fox???

31:27 ohhh here we go, Dr. Curtain sees himself in Reynie only to resent it later

31:37 Mr. Benedict called Reynie a leader once too.. the parallels have ✨begun✨

32:12 is this the "keep your enemies close" conversation??

32:15 I'm honestly surprised he called him Sticky and not George

32:42 IT IS SQ IT IS SQ IT IS SQ

32:59 sooo that starts by not letting his caution down with you

33:11 Dr. Curtain congratulating himself mid-conversation on saying something deep is so in character

33:20 "I was betrayed by someone very close to me" so that was Mr. Benedict. Who the fuck else would it be

33:23 WHAT DID I SAAAAY

33:31 oh noooo Reynie starts doubting Mr. Benedict here? Is that the move?

33:43 that transition was so pretty stoppp

33:53 again how hasn't he fallen asleep

34:55 ayyyy journal snooping

35:05 Constance, my love, you are cut throat

35:11 Milligan is in the DRYWALL? ohh buddy be careful

35:21 omfg are they talking about water polo 😂 I love that that's the sport of choice

35:51 ayyyy they put the Milligan dots together too. Shame the guy's not with them rn

36:36 so Mr. Benedict brings up cheating first? I really like how we get to see the adults riddling out what to send back, we didn't get that at all in the books

37:46 I LOVE THAT THEY KEPT "don't get caught"

38:51 Kate riddling out the island schematics engineer style is so like her

39:07 they're just walking out the door?? Huh???

39:29 babe... turn off your flashlight

39:33 AND THAT'S WHY

39:58 is that the precursor to chuckroot?

40:38 the papers were from his orphanage 🥺🥺🥺

41:14 why does that break my heart

41:19 Dr. Curtain and SQ doing shit together it just.. so heartwarming

42:00 HAHA

42:16 okay, so show!Curtain is a kissass 😂

42:35 wait wait wait so Dr. Curtain is actively trying to contain his brother? That would explain why the Recruiters were looking for him and weirdly not the kids

43:25 "power wants to be free" sounds more like a personal mantra than a conversation between engineers

43:41 YES A LETTER TO MISS PERUMAL

44:02 more voices. Poor Connie girl 🥺

44:36 he loves her so much 😭😭😭

44:45 SHE TRIED TO SEND HIM A CARE PACKAGE

45:13 WORRIED MOM TIMEEE

[the-conversation-pod]

The ITSAY Anniversary Show, Part 1

AND WE'RE BACK!

October marks the third anniversary of the show that rewired the BL industry, and it felt like the right time for a retrospective. In part 1 Ben leads a panel talk on I Told Sunset About You. Just us along with @liyazaki, @waitmyturtles, @wen-kexing-apologist, and @so-much-yet-to-learn

Join us as we talk about our history with the genre, Phuket as a setting, the complexities of the characters, and why this show remains so important.

Listen on Apple Podcasts!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Intro 4:16 - How did you come to ITSAY? 11:31 - Phuket as a Setting 19:00 - Style and Genre 29:40 - Characters 36:18 - Teh and Oh's Dynamic 50:07 - Why do you care so much about ITSAY? 1:04:08 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Intro

Ben

BWOOOOOOOOM. Okay. It Worked. You're already in it. 

Nini

[laughs] That's staying in.

Ben

Welcome back to The Conversation, everyone, for our fall season. We're very excited about this season. We decided to take advantage of the reduced output of shows, at least for part of summer, and decided to do a retrospective on I Told Sunset About You and I Promised You the Moon. We also have made a lot of friends in our time on Tumblr and decided to hang out with some of them, and talk about the show so it wouldn't just be me and Nini blabbing about one of our favorite projects.

Nini

Our panel of I Told Sunset About You experts includes the lovely, the only Turtles a.k.a @waitmyturtles on Tumblr. We have Aiden @so-much-yet-to-learn on Tumblr. We have Captain Hands who is @wen-kexing-apologist on Tumblr. And the fabulous friend of the pod, our good friend mor @liyazaki on Tumblr. 

So that is our esteemed panel for I Told Sunset About You in this episode. That's who you're gonna hear. In the next episode we're gonna talk I Promised You the Moon and have a different set of people on. 

So, Ben, aside from the fact that it's the anniversary of I Told Sunset About You—the third anniversary—why did you feel like this was the right time?

Ben

I think this has probably been one of the most thematically interesting years that the genre has had, and I've said many times that I don't think we'd be able to get the kinds of quality productions we're getting out of the genre now without the success of I Told Sunset About You and I Promised You the Moon, and I feel like for us to move forward with this particular show I think we had to at least get that show out of our system and into the recording. It had been bothering both of us that we hadn't really sat down and talked about it even though we dropped constantly that we are fans. I think it was really useful to talk about it. 

I really liked that we actually split up for it because you and I talked to each other a lot on this show, and it was really fun to talk to some other people about the show first and get some other perspectives.

Nini

We always say that one of the whole points of The Conversation is to expand the conversation outward, so we had a really good time doing these panels. We think you're gonna enjoy them. So, let's just dive right in.

4:16 - How did you come to ITSAY?

Ben

We're gonna get right into it, Our first question of the night. We're gonna start with Mor: longtime friend of the podcast. Mor?

Mor

Yes, hi Ben! 

Ben

How did you come to ITSAY?

Mor

[laughs] Well I came to ITSAY actually as a relatively new BL watcher — I had very begrudgingly watched 2gether and a handful of other very typical GMMTV type shows. And I had heard that there were some higher budget higher brow BLs out there, but I'm not ashamed to admit that what initially drew me to the genre in the first place is the… kind of fluffy romance trope-driven narratives? And it was just the first time that I had encountered any kind of queer media that was so lighthearted, and typically took place in a world where homophobia basically doesn't exist, and especially as a slightly older queer, that was such a nice change of pace compared to the other queer media that I'd been consuming up until that point. So frankly, the idea of watching a more serious BL back then made me a little nervous, even though that's a lot of what I typically watch when it comes to Western media. So I put off watching ITSAY for a while until I eventually decided to just jump into it and the rest is history. 

ITSAY isn't just my favorite show in the genre, it's one of my favorite shows and pieces of media period. I Promised You the Moon is too, but that's a hot take I'll expound on next time.

Ben

Thank you. Aiden, what about you, you've been around BL for a bit. How did you come to ITSAY?

Aiden

I've been in the BL slash QL sphere since the beginning, largely as a lurker. I didn't watch ITSAY when it aired, due to not being in the right headspace at the time to tackle a show with that much emotional impact. It was obviously very much in the zeitgeist, constantly in my feed, impossible to miss. So many other shows since then have been compared to it and I always planned to watch it someday in the nebulous future, but with so many things constantly airing I’d never quite gotten around to it. 

So when word went out that Ben and Nini were looking for people who hadn't watched it yet to get a mix of perspectives, I figured there probably weren't many others who'd been around as long as I had and somehow hadn't watched it yet. I re-evaluated whether or not I was ready to watch it and turns out I was! So, better late than never.

Ben

I am so glad we finally convinced you to watch the show. I wasn't gonna push you but I'm like ‘oh my god Aiden’s finally watching.’

Aiden

I'm glad as well. It was definitely an excellent thing to watch.

Ben

Okay, Captain Hands! [laughs] What about you?

Captain Hands

So I got into BL like a year-ish ago, and of course being a queer person who had not seen a lot of queer media the worms got in my brain instantly! There's like a master post of queer Asian shows that is somewhere on Tumblr that I saw, I don't know what user it is, sorry! But I saw a post that had I Told Sunset About You on it as like a good show to watch but I wasn't sure where to access it at the time, so I kind of just filed it away for later. Cut to like six months later, Ben and Turtles were yelling at me to eat vegetables, Kyr-kun-chan changed her icon to I think PP or Billkin or something, Nini mentioned PP and then a thousand messages in the clown server later ginnymoonbeam and I committed to watching ITSAY for the first time, which is probably a good thing because then Ben could warn me about doing one episode at a time.

Ben

Oh right, you were the one who was like, I'm tough I can watch more than one episode at a time. No.

Captain Hands

Wrong. Very wrong.

Ben

I'm glad you also finally joined us. Last but definitely not least, Turtles what about you? How did you come to ITSAY?

Turtles

Hey folks! Ben and Nini, thanks for having me, this is so awesome. All right, so, I guess what I'm the most well known on Tumblr for is the old GMMTV challenge project that I am blogging on. I came to BLs through Kinnporsche, at least Thai BLs through Kinnporsche, I was familiar with Japanese BLs for a couple years before that. I Told Sunset About You, in regards to it making it into the project — it was obviously going to be a natural part of the challenge syllabus, in terms of anybody picking up that syllabus and learning about Thai BLs in the first place. But the entire project, the watch list is community contributed, it’s 100% created by the community of Tumblr posters who love Thai BLs and who have lots of opinions about Thai BLs including this group here. It wasn't just through the solicitation of feedback on the OGMMTVC, uh, that I came to it, I certainly had seen I Told Sunset About You and I Promised You the Moon on many lists across Tumblr as, as an impactful BL. But in regards specifically to where it belonged by way of chronology, and by way of its cinematic impact, all of that feedback came through my soliciting the community on Tumblr for creating my syllabus that is teaching me about Thai BLs, and will hopefully get replicated in other people's journeys as well. So that's how I came to it.

Ben

I'm very excited by everybody's answers about how they came to this. I want to ask a quick follow-up question since — some of us have been here since the before time and the long long ago, and some of you got started like a year or two ago? Going in reverse order real quick: what is everybody's first BL that they remember? Turtles?

Turtles

The classic, the wonderful, the amazing, What Did You Eat Yesterday? Long story short, that was the first time I had ever discovered Tumblr as well — enjoyed that drama and I was absolutely insane for it for about two years solid.

Ben

Thank you for that. Captain Hands! What was your first BL?

Captain Hands

My friends were really obsessed with Word of Honor and showed it to me, so I got really into that, and that's how I found the, like, list of other BLs. If that does not count as a BL, then Kinnporsche was the first thing that I watched.

Ben

[laughs] Aiden, what about you? I'm actually really curious to hear your answer, because you and I have been around since the beginning.

Aiden

It depends on how you define BL, really. The first thing that I think could probably qualify would be the first Takumi-kun from Japan in 2007.

Ben

Unfortunately, that counts.

Aiden

Yeah [laughs]. Unfortunately indeed.

Ben

What about you, Mor? You said ITSAY was one of your first BLs. You have any others you watched before that? Or what was your other pathway into this?

Mor

2gether was one of the first ones, which is ironic because I hated 2gether. [laughs] I don't know why I finished watching it, I was just intrigued, so even though I kind of despised it for a lot of personal reasons — just wasn't for me — I enjoyed it enough that I wanted to keep watching. I wanted to find more.

Ben

I'm absolutely fascinated by how everybody came to this. It's KinnPorsche, 2gether, What Did You Eat Yesterday? and Aiden with some of the oldest stuff.

11:31 - Phuket as a Setting

Moving on to our next question! We're going to get into some setting stuff. What about Phuket as a setting stands out to you? I think I'm gonna have Mor answer this one first because they actually visited Phuket and some of the filming locations.

Mor

I certainly did, and I made a concentrated effort to take pictures, as some of you I think have seen, of the actual scenes in ITSAY, like the famous chip crawl deck, which was a journey to find. It was an incredible experience getting to visit Phuket. The setting of Phuket is unlike any other backdrop to a BL that I've ever seen. The landscape is really a character unto itself. I get a very similar but also sort of very rare sort of feeling when I watch ITSAY as I do when I'm watching, say, the train scene in Spirited Away. It's like looking at a natural environment that's been elevated to something almost magical just because of the way it's being shot or portrayed. 

I read once that Miyazaki's films almost make you homesick for a place you've never been, and that's how I felt about Phuket after watching ITSAY, to the point that it absolutely influenced my decision to go to Thailand and actually go there. And having been I can say it's just as lovely as they portray it to be — but I do know my attachment runs a lot deeper and is more personal than that, because Phuket to me will always be tied to Teh and Oh. 

The specific locations they chose, having now been there and walked around and seen it — it was so smart and it really enhanced the narrative while never overwhelming it or taking away from it. Like, I was very struck that the beach that the hammock scene takes place on… it's very wide, it's very open, and you would almost miss the hammock, because the way that the trees hang so low to the beach, it really sort of encapsulates the hammock? You have to actually climb under the branches. It really I think created this effect of Teh and Oh — they almost look cocooned in the darkness, in this otherwise very wide open environment. Maybe it felt a little safer because of that, to start saying what they had been feeling and skirting around. The wide shots of the beach chase scene… and obviously the beauty of Promthep Cape, and so many other moments. Phuket just… it did so much to enhance the intimacy of the scenes, and move this story along.

Ben

Apparently we're all going to have to go visit Phuket now. Turtles, when you were reacting to the series you were writing about some of the cultural crossover stuff. What do you have to say about Phuket as a setting?

Turtles

I've never been to Thailand, but I have spent a good portion of my entire childhood and adult life in Thailand's southern neighboring country of Malaysia — with my mother being Malaysian, my being part Malaysian — Phuket is an incredibly important locale for me to consider. Chinese migration from Fujian, from other locales in China, traveled in part down that Thai landscape to the Malaysian peninsula, and then ultimately settling all throughout Thailand, through Malaysia as I said, and ultimately into Singapore which has a majority Chinese population. 

A lot of what I learned about Phuket in part comes from my own Malaysian heritage, but also through conversations with other amazing Tumblr users including the very wonderful telomeke, who hails from the southeast Asian region himself. Phuket, Penang, Kuala Lumpur, these are towns that happened to receive more than their fair share of Chinese immigrants, that ended up in part creating a very unique culture that we call Peranakan culture: Chinese immigrants intermingling with ethnic residents of the areas in which they settled. Teh's mom is just a fabulous example of somebody that, that holds a lot of those influences all in one person: she wears Peranakan clothes, particularly when she's hosting events for the public at her Hokkien Mee stall.

Ben

Captain Hands, Aiden, do you want to say anything about Phuket?

Captain Hands

Phuket is a small town when compared to locations like Bangkok, which is where a lot of I Promised You the Moon is going to take place. I've been thinking that the small-town vibe works very well with how often it feels to me like Teh's entire world is ending whenever Oh, like, does something that like makes him jealous. Or like, if Teh's rejected or if he makes a mistake, like you can just feel in his body how much that impacts him, and it feels very small-town to me, to like to have these little moments be so big to him. 

There’s such a significant use of the Chinese language in this show, and for all the ways that like Chinese is used to tell us, like, what Teh is thinking and feeling, and for all the ways that like Teh is taking the time to try to teach Oh how to understand the language that Teh himself uses to express himself frequently — is a really poignant thing for me to pick up on considering Teh's own heritage, and like, his mother's heritage, and like the Chinese immigrant population that is a part of that community.

Ben

Turtles was talking about the cultural crossover that occurs in Phuket from all the various people migrating there. I'm from New Orleans which can jokingly be described as the northernmost Caribbean city, that has passed between French and Spanish control multiple times, and has now been occupied by Americans for one hundred and fifty years. So we have a very weird collection of cultures here as well — most evidenced in our architecture. And I think about that a lot when I reflect on Phuket — because I just rewatched it this week — it looks different from what we usually get in Bangkok.

Turtles

This show was so unbelievably layered by its visual cues, from a cultural interpretive perspective. Ben, as you pointed out to me, one of the friends, Phillip, he clearly comes from from a Islamic family, his parents are shown wearing a hijab and a songkok, and it's just very indicative of the the filmmakers giving us the indication that we're talking about… the mixing of cultures, assimilation and melting pot, all of the different words that we want to throw out there. 

As per your note about New Orleans, you know, as we say in Malaysia same same lah. It's very comparative to all of these indications that they were bringing up about Phuket. Thinking about Phuket as a tourist town as well, as compared to New Orleans, having just been to New Orleans myself, I think that there's just so much to, to pull out there by way of whether you make Phuket a permanent home or not. Teh and Oh clearly exist on the borderline of that permanence as they get closer to going to college.

Ben

There's something specific about growing up in a tourist town, like you can go visit tourist locations during peak tourist season as a way to avoid people you know. Because unless they're working the location, it's just strangers.

19:00 - Style and Genre

Ben

We're going to move to our next question here and get into some style questions. How does ITSAY play with genre and stylistic expectations? And specifically, are there any works that you recall while you were watching it? Aiden, you and I had talked a little bit about this.

Aiden

For myself when I was watching ITSAY, rather than paying attention to the source materials that ITSAY drew from, I found myself thinking back on shows that I'd seen since ITSAY aired and reevaluating them through the lens that had changed from my watching it. ITSAY clearly broke open a number of aspects that the Thai BL circuit specifically hadn't delved into until then, and expanded the genre as a result. 

My personal favorite impact is seeing shows set in rural locations, which were quite thin on the ground before that point, and have increased at least in visits if not fully set in more rural locations since then. Shows like Tale of a Thousand Stars, Cupid’s Last Wish, I Will Knock You, Remember Me, Moonlight Chicken. And it also, it showed grit and grime in a way that you really hadn't seen before that point in at least the BL genre. It was more common in media intended for queer audiences or art house type of content but the BL genre had always been very sanitized, very urban, very clean cut. Almost cartoonish and simplistic. And seeing something where you got to see buildings with marks on the walls that are from, you know, monsoon rain, stains, faded paint, chipped plaster, dirt on the ground, picture glass that had flecks on it, dust settled on things — that was a revelation, at least at the time. It really made things feel a lot more… settled and grounded and realistic. It felt like you could walk down the road and see these places, rather than it being a kind of constructed facade of where these shows are, that's an everyplace everywhere kind of generalization. And that followed with shows like Not Me, I Will Knock You again, Remember Me, that you got to see the grittiness, Not Me especially. 

The inclusion of religion, more Chinese cultural aspects, things like that that had largely been omitted from most shows until then, started becoming involved more in the day to day life that you got to see. Things like the talk Bart where you do the alms in the morning providing the food for the monks that go around traveling from home to home. 

We also started getting more slower paced shows like Nitiman, You're My Sky — which had heavy callbacks — Coffee Melody, My Only 12%. Shows with high concepts, stronger writing, better production value on a number of levels, like, ah, Bad Buddy, Triage, La Pluie, Kinnporsche. Also things with some of the more awkward side of queer life, which until then had very much not been present almost at all, outside of the more tragic kind of shows. Because again, it was that sanitized, sort of, ‘it has to be picture perfect, it has to be ideal’ kind of… nuance and vibe on the shows. And so we got things like Secret Crush on You, and I'll argue that I Will Knock You should fit there as well. 

The way that it's expanded the shows that have come after — and yes we do still have those sanitized, simplistic, clean, bubblegum sort of shows — very much enjoyable when you're in the mood for that sort of show, but we've also added things to give more breadth. Things like La Pluie, Step by Step, Moonlight Chicken, that make it a much more encompassing sort of genre, able to draw broader crowds that have differing interests as well. I am thrilled to see the change and be able to tie back now to how that was driven by ITSAY.

Ben

This is one of the reasons why I was really glad we finally got you to watch the show, because you've been in the genre as long or longer than me? And it was one of the shows that you had skipped for specific reasons when it first aired and I was curious how your long view of the genre would play into your reflections upon it. 

When I watched ITSAY, I ended up having a really intense reaction to the end of it — positively, as a result of some of the works that had come before. It's sometimes hard for me to connect ITSAY to other BLs that pre-date it, because those BLs are often heavily influenced by product placement and a slapstick version of humor that ITSAY is not relying on at all — it's an incredibly serious show about what it wants to cover. And that connected me back further to some of the German works I had watched growing up. Like Summer Storm, which is I think from 2004, there's a Dutch film called Boys from 2014, Big Eden from America in 2000 which uses its setting in the American hinterland really well. And I just had not seen this in Thai BL. 

The closest we came to something this grounded-feeling from Thailand was The Love of Siam, which they submitted to the Academy Awards in 2007. I actually had Turtles and Captain Hands watch that this week, so before I get into my very specific reactions to that, at the end of episode 5 of ITSAY, I kind of want to hear you two, and what you have to say about Love of Siam in relation to ITSAY before we move forward.

Captain Hands

You've said before that you felt like ITSAY is an apology for Love of Siam, and I fully agree. Two kids that are childhood friends separate for a number of years, come back together, the attraction between them is instantaneous and very obvious and kind of hard to ignore? And then having it end the way that it ends for Love of Siam, is, you know, it's a choice! I can understand and see why they would play it that way, but I agree with you, Ben, that it is, that this feels like an apology for what they did to us with Love of Siam.

Ben

Turtles, any commentary you want to give?

Turtles

Me not being Thai, not knowing Thai, having not visited Thailand — for a movie in 2007 to end with a successful same-sex relationship would have surprised me. So the film ending the way that it did was not surprising, and I found the journey to get to that point really poignant. That is a very deeply Turtles read, a very deep Asian read. Absolutely no surprise whatsoever that many BL filmmakers were influenced by this movie. And as far as ITSAY goes, is ITSAY an apology for Love of Siam? I can absolutely understand that verbiage, that's not a verbiage that I would necessarily jump to using. 

I could very well say that if ITSAY had ended without Teh and Oh getting together, I also would not have been surprised, especially with the way episodes 3 and 4 went. And now that I've seen Love of Siam I could feel stronger in that opinion. Now, as far as it making me feel good or satisfied with the story conclusion? That's, I think, you know that's, that's personal extrapolation there. But as far as the art itself goes I think Love of Siam communicated to me that I would not have been surprised if Teh and Oh didn't get together, if they had more personal, emotional, and also macrocultural wrangling that they needed to do. Love of Siam absolutely talks to ITSAY but I'm not sure that I would necessarily call it an apology.

Ben

Mor, do you have any commentary on genre history?

Mor

The really interesting, different thing that ITSAY did for me, as specifically a queer 30-something, a Westerner who's been in all sorts of extremely homophobic environments and, and different things throughout my life, and I've just gotten used to not having happily ever after. What I loved so much about BLs in the beginning was just, ‘oh man, we can have these light, bubbly, effervescent stories that get a happily ever after and it doesn't have to be complicated, it can just be sweet?’ And it was such a new concept for me, to see that. 

So, ITSAY ended up, like, with the ending that we got, it ended up being almost healing for me? As dramatic as that sounds. And that's really why, because it subverted it. You could tell going in, this is gonna be serious. This is gonna be hard-hitting. We're gonna be getting into deep stuff in terms of these queer kids figuring out who they are, and learning how they can be together, if they want to be together. So I was sort of expecting — because of my history and what I'm what I'm used to seeing — okay, well we're going serious, it's not a good chance this is gonna end well. So to see that — which frankly was a much more realistic portrayal of queer relationships than your typical sanitized BL — that is what took ITSAY for me to god-tier media, god-tier.

29:40 - Characters

Ben

Let's get into some of the character stuff. For all that they are incredible and great characters, why couldn't it be Bas or Tarn for Teh and Oh? Captain Hands! You're up first for this one.

Captain Hands

So the easy answer for me is that it just couldn't be? Like neither Teh or Oh really knows exactly when they developed feelings for each other, and they both try to have feelings for Tarn and Bas and they just can't make it work. Teh going to Tarn at 4 am and asking her to tell him that she loves him was, for me, like, ‘Oh I need to know what it feels like to hear this from her so I can know how it, how it feels… to hear it? And to know whether or not that feels good? If that feels something, like something I want to hear.’ 

For a more, you know, in-depth answer, because that's my whole shtick, right? There's a couple of things that I was thinking about, mostly the Chinese language element, the color element, and then just like Tarn and Bas as characters? One of the throughlines of ITSAY is that Teh frequently writes whatever his subconscious is fixating on over and over again in Chinese. Teh can't parse through the complexity of his emotions, but he can summarize them in like words, so like ‘rival’ or ‘intimate,’ and we know that there is much more behind what he's writing, than like what is actually being put down on paper? Because Oh's not good at Chinese, Teh spends so much of this show like painstakingly teaching Oh how to understand Chinese, and like how to understand him as a person and like his subconscious? So like once Oh starts to get it and get better at Chinese is when they really start to connect more intimately. If you think about the end of episode 3 with the sniffing scene, the buildup to that moment is Oh using the male/male protagonist question — like, how you say male protagonist in Chinese, how you say female protagonist in Chinese, is male-male okay? — is him asking if Teh is okay with them like potentially becoming a couple. 

And I know this is going to kill Ben to talk about the colors, but this is for the color girlies! Oh is red and Teh is blue and green, and something that I did notice on this watch through is like, Teh's home is filled with red, like the walls of the restaurant are red, his bedspread’s red, the couch, the clothing his mother wears is often red, and Oh's home is… very much blue and green, so like the sign for the Panwa resort is blue, the windows, all of the windows are framed in this kind of like, light green. These boys grew up in each other's colors. Their home is each other's colors. And so of course when they first meet, they're going to be drawn to one another because they remind each other of home. Tarn's color is purple, and so there are parts of Tarn that Teh is drawn to, but I see that as kind of being like the red parts of Tarn. 

Oh likes Bas because Bas kind of acts as a similar person in his life to Teh. In episode 2 Oh says that he likes Bas because Bas drives him around, but he won't confess because he doesn't know what Bas's feelings are for him, and he thinks that Bas likes girls and he doesn't want to lose him as a friend, when that is a direct parallel to Teh. And something that I started noticing on this watchthrough is that Bas picks up whatever color Teh is wearing, but he's often like a scene or an episode behind. So in episode 4 Teh’s wearing green at the beginning of like them going to the resort? And then Bas picks up the green when he shares a bed with Oh, and then by the time that Bas has picked up that green color, Teh and Oh are both in yellow, and so like they're now matching, and Bas is is behind the curve. 

From the perspective of just like, Tarn and Bas as characters, like they both value themselves enough to know when to let go, which I think is a very crucial part of their relationships with Teh and Oh? When Teh colors the hibiscus that Tarn draws red, she shuts that shit down like immediately and sends him home. And when Oh is quiet and sad on like the drive home, Bas knows immediately like why that is, and goes to Teh’s house. So like I really strongly believe that Oh ends up with Teh at the end because Bas gives him up? Oh would have kept fighting the urge to go to Teh, and like to comfort Teh and to support him, if Bas hadn't driven Oh to Teh's house and been like, ‘it's okay, it's fine, I understand.’ And, and given him that freedom.

Ben

I’m very fascinated to follow up on the thread about Tarn and Bas having more willingness to cut those boys off [laughs]. Anyone else have any commentary they want to talk about on Bas or Tarn? Oh please, Aiden, proceed.

Aiden

It just needs to be said that Bas is the best boy and Tarn is the best girl. Sorry, somebody had to say it.

Ben

Thank you, sir. So [laughs] I think Teh likes Tarn because she's as committed to her future as he is. She intentionally does not pursue a romance with him because she thinks it would get in the way of her pursuit of her art and architecture career. And Teh is super committed to his career as an actor. And I think that's probably why he liked her so much? This is a little bit of I Promised You the Moon slipping through. But like Captain Hands pointed out: because she's committed to what she wants for herself, she's not going to sacrifice a ton of her stuff for him the way Oh might, or that Teh might for Oh. 

And Bas… I've been thinking a lot about second lead stuff because of conversations with Shan. Bas doesn't confess until really late in the game? But so much has happened at that point, that Teh is going to be able to break past that because of the earlier promise. I agree that he is the best boy. But I think Oh likes the drama [laughs] that Teh brings to his life.

36:18 - Teh and Oh-aew’s Dynamic

Ben

On to our next question! The dynamic between Teh and Oh-aew is one of the primary draws of this story. What did you connect to in their dynamic or their story? Mor, you're up first.

Mor

I'm vibrating, can you tell? [laughs] So there is so much, I think, that could draw anyone into the story of ITSAY, because the glories and the pitfalls of first love, they have so much in common regardless of who you fall in love with. But I personally connected so deeply to their story, again, as a queer person, I know a lot of other people did as well. You can't help but painfully relate to both of them — at least that was my experience, especially my younger self — Teh having so many feelings that he spends so much time being incapable of processing or acknowledging, let alone communicating? And Oh being so long-suffering and hopeful and just pining with his whole self for this mess of a boy, who doesn't know what he wants or what he's doing. I mean not that Oh really does either; who knows what they want in a relationship when they're that young? And when you have feelings for your long-lost best friend that you just reunited with, it's very complicated. 

But there were just so many quintessentially queer experiences in ITSAY and in their dynamic that hit me right in my gay little heart. The tiny secret touches that mean so much, the affectionate friendly banter that all of a sudden is veering into flirting, or ‘are we flirting, like what's going on?’ and then the crippling doubt that sets in afterwards and how it can haunt you for days. This gut wrenching fear that these feelings you found yourself in can possibly affect your whole life: how your friends feel about you, whether or not your family accepts you. There's just so much that we have to consider, well beyond what our hetero peers typically have to deal with, and it's exciting and it's terrifying. It's not just incredibly validating, but like I mentioned earlier, it's healing in a way, to see such a frankly visceral experience portrayed with so much care and accuracy, as they did with giving us Teh and Oh's story, and their dynamic and how it progressed. I just feel like overall the stakes are so much higher for us? And often at so, so young and tender ages, to just explore who we are, to like and to fall in love with who we want to, and… their whole story for me, watching it unfold — this is very dramatic but it's true — for me, it felt like someone peering into my past looking at all these little hurts I forgot, these bigger ones that are still healing, and saying, ‘it was like this back then wasn't it? It was so hard. But there's so much beauty here, and you can have it too! It can be yours too. You can have this struggle, you can go through all of this, you can walk through the fire and emerge through the other side with this beautiful, beautiful thing, that maybe even is even more beautiful because of how much work and how much brokenness it took to get there.’

Ben

I'm so glad we got to let you get that out of your system, Mor. [laughs] Turtles or Aiden, do you have any commentary on Oh and Teh?

Aiden

For me the, the dynamic between Teh and Oh was very unique and… not something that I had necessarily dealt with, but the coming-out scene for Teh and Hoon resonated incredibly strongly for me. The dialogue from that scene matched almost word for word how I came out to my own brother? And the emotions, and the fear and the terror and the relief and the reassurance and the, you know, gentle teasing to lighten the mood… that felt so real. Mine had [laughs] rather less crying, at least in the moment, I definitely did later — but the text and the, the feeling of that scene just took me right back to that moment. And there's so much about this show that is authentic in a very specific way to different people's experiences.

Ben

Thank you Aiden. Turtles?

Turtles

For me, what Oh was able to get out of Teh, by way of what I called a drunken hormonal experience… just the way Billkin acted in his exploratory attraction towards Oh and how PP received it… how their physical interplay represented that budding romance, that budding attraction. The end of episode 2 on the boat particularly moved me, let alone the incredibly impactful endings of 3 and 4. I was surprised to sort of see Teh… melt, and go back and forth in his physicality at the end of that episode. Just the physicality of that exploration, and how the physicality itself then compared to and reflected on all the emotional processes that we saw between the two of them. I thought that that was so unique particularly about this show, and how unabashed it was to display such physical attraction developing between the two of them, particularly on Teh's end. That's something that I'll really take away from this show, that it displayed attraction, really really vibrating attraction, in such an impactful way.

Ben

Captain Hands, you have any commentary?

Captain Hands

Of course you know I do, I have commentary about everything all the time. So I think the thing that really drew me to Oh and Teh’s dynamic was the power of their feelings for one another, and like, especially the way that Oh acts as a magnet to Teh and like, the trance-like state that Oh kind of puts him in, so you get all these moments of Teh just kind of following after Oh, and like Oh being aware of that power that he holds? The sincerity of their characterizations and the commitment to their characters… I love this show so much for having Teh just constantly walk in circles. And how that will kind of translate into just the cyclical nature of his own personality, and like the experiences that he has, and the stuff that he puts himself through. The things he will continue to do as their relationship progresses. You can tell so much, like how comfortable these two are with each other, and how in love they have been with each other since they were kids, and that's another reason I think that they couldn't have really been with anybody else, is because they have all of this history between them? That is like so palpable, and like how much Teh wants to protect those memories, and like the feelings that he has when he's with Oh. The line that they say like, ‘don't give my time to others’ is so poignant. 

Seeing the way that Teh is continuously transformed by being around Oh, hating coconut at the beginning of the show and thinking that it smelled bad, and then like having that scene with Oh on the boat at the end of episode 2, and then immediately opening episode 3 with Teh just smashing a bit of coconut meat on his face as like hard as he can, because he just wants to be like as close to it as possible and like, how it doesn't smell bad anymore, and how it tastes good now because he's starting to have these feelings for Oh. And that has radically changed how he interacts with the world around him. It’s just like so good to me to watch being portrayed on screen, especially because Teh is not aware of his queerness in the way that that Oh is? And so like, Teh not knowing why he feels the way he feels, and then lashing out because he can't put a name to like, what it is that is causing the feelings that he has, it feels very, very in keeping with like, the queer experience as you are like, learning your own identity.

Ben

The thing with ITSAY — it's not just the things that it does that are familiar: with all the important touching, the knowing that exists between you, the dealing with the homophobia, the concern about how other people will perceive you, whether or not your parents can be proud of you if you are honest about this portion of yourself. What I think makes ITSAY so special as queer media, and why I lose my mind over it? It's about the fact that these two cannot hide how they feel from each other, at all. And as a result they are the most cry baby boys I have ever seen in all of queer cinema. I just rewatched it this week. These boys are crying constantly at and about each other. Every time any one of them says anything to the other, they make the other one cry over something. 

It's interesting because so much of the ‘are you are you not’ thing, when you're growing up, is about the uncertainty that the other boy is actually feeling it? And that never feels like it exists between them. Oh knew what he was feeling, but as soon as Teh starts to show interest in him, he picks up on it instantly, and eventually confronts Teh very directly about it. As Turtles pointed out, the way the intimacy between them is displayed so frankly. They spend all of episode 3 dancing around each other — we know where this is going! And then you get the back-scratching scene which leads into this arc about Teh dealing with the physical reality of Oh being a boy. Episode 4 has the underwater kiss. During the underwater kiss, Teh puts his hand on Oh's chest again, and Oh has a reaction to that, and you can see him immediately being hit with the uncertainty about Teh's attraction to girls — in the middle of the best kiss that has ever happened. And I don't think I noticed that in my earlier watches: even during this huge moment for them, they are still continuing the drama. There's a specificity to the way that these two feel queer, that I have noticed that every person who grew up with some of the Knowing, as I call it, feels so intensely about these two boys.

Mor

I'm nodding so hard over here I'm surprised I haven't lost my head at this point. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes to everything you said. The sheer magnetism of their connection, that's really one of my biggest takeaways from this show. Not only the authenticity, but just how much Billkin and PP's chemistry and their talent as actors, how they were able to really, ah, just make that experience that is so true, it's so true to my experience as a queer person who definitely had the Knowing from a very young age... and had a lot of of moments like that where it just felt like, ‘what, I think there's something here, you know it, I know it, I think we both know it’ — it's hard to put it into words, but they just captured it so beautifully, so brilliantly. It took me back. 

It was so accurate that it made me remember little moments, tiny little moments in my past that weren't so little in the moment, they were really big when I was, you know, ten, eleven, twelve, falling for a girl for the first time. That's part of what made it so special for me is how it really took me back to those times, and in a healing way.

Ben

Captain Hands.

Captain Hands

I was just thinking about, in the opposite sense of like, I did not at least acknowledge my queerness until I was in my early 20s? But like, definitely grew up feeling very different from people around me and like, lonely compared to people around me, for like reasons I could not explain at the time? And so like, seeing Teh have to go through and process his own queerness because it is not something that has occurred to him before, was something that I took so strongly to. I relate so hard right now in my life to the identity narratives, because it took me so long to kind of parse through what my identities are, and to like, get comfortable with them. And so seeing Teh’s kind of like, ‘can I even like boys?’ moments, that is something that was really fun for me to watch, again with like the circling, like he has no clue [laughs] what's going on in his life and he is just circling and circling and circling until he kind of comes to a point that he can connect to, and then he'll kind of run off in that direction.

50:07 - Why Do You Care So Much About ITSAY?

Ben

Final question for everyone: Why do you care so much about ITSAY? Aiden.

Aiden

I care about it because, for one it is authentic queer representation on a level that I had very rarely seen on screen — both in Thai media and and just in general. It's very true to life for a wide variety of queer people. But also I am passionate about it because of the way that it drove Thai media as a whole forward to a profound degree — but especially the QL genre. It showed unarguably that there was a market for high quality productions, and the industry reacted by broadening their offerings accordingly. Many of the Thai shows that I love most from the past couple of years clearly echo back to ITSAY in specific aspects, and there will be untold echoes that continue radiating forward from here, in a good way.

Ben

Thank you, Aiden. Captain Hands.

Captain Hands

ITSAY to me is a foundational queer show. Mostly because queer characters are allowed to be complex, three-dimensional and frustrating. If anybody from Tumblr is listening to this podcast, which I know you are, the for, by, and about queer thing is something that I've been looking at a lot as I've been watching more stuff, and this is very much all three, right? Because they're letting these characters make mistakes, and like hurt people that they care about in their quest to better understand themselves? They are allowed to be human, which is like a wild concept in a lot of the like earlier BL shows, it's part of why I don't like it personally when people say that ITSAY's not a BL, because like, why can't BL's be high quality with like, really good structure and story right? Like I don't think that it's fair to just be like, oh this doesn't count as a BL because of like the, the production itself. 

And I think that just the emotional, like honesty and vulnerability that the script and the actors like showed throughout this process, really struck deep in my experiences figuring out like my own identity? There's such a commitment to everything and everybody in the show that I really liked. Watching the documentaries. I just love how much of the emotionally safe space it felt like, seeing how often the director himself was crying watching these scenes? Or like, how they would kind of wind up these these crying scenes by like, I remember like, PP being rocked back and forth in a hug by the director in the position that he's going to be in when he hugs Bas crying at the end of, what is it, episode 4 or part of episode 5 when Bas is like, go comfort Teh? All of these moments that like really show that the cast and the crew support each other, and like trust in each other… there is so much time and effort put into this show, and that is part of why I like it so much, is like you can tell how much care every aspect of this show was given.

Ben

Thank you, Captain Hands. Turtles?

Turtles

ITSAY for me reaches an echelon that only a very few Thai BLs have done for me by way of really balancing out an homage, a love letter to the culture that, that it's celebrating, along with what Aiden and Captain Hands have said so far regarding queer representation, and just hit a really incredible artistic balance experimented with with cinematic form and this serialized kind of publication way. Captain Hands, to your point about the argument about if it's a BL or if it's not a BL, one thing that I've been considering quite a bit in conversations, particularly with neuroticbookworm, has been whether or not ITSAY would have been more successful as a movie. And I've thought more about it and I think that, while there may be an answer to that that's separate from what I will say here — which is that I think it was really groundbreaking that they took this incredible idea and artistic vision and put it in serialized form, and experimented with what had been concretely developed as a serialized BL genre, and played in that sandbox. 

So taking all of that together, taking all of those maybe slightly even risky decisions rooting this show in a particular voice of a culture that we hadn't seen highlighted quite in as explosive of a way as ITSAY being rooted in Phuket was, along with its gorgeous depiction of queer revelation, of queer realization. Just all of that combined into one pot of a show really blows me away. 

My watching experience of it — it took me out, I couldn't multitask, I had to take all of your guys' advice and watch one episode at a time, and no show has done that for me. And so that, that's what I'll take away from it. A unique experience, unlike anything else that I ever experienced watching a Thai BL.

Ben

Before I move to Mor, I just have to say: Absolutely not! This should not have been a movie! I have watched a lot of goddamn movies. We deserved all of the time [laughs] that ITSAY gave us on this story. It would have felt so rushed if they tried to force this shit into two goddamn hours! Yeah! No! No. [Ben bangs the table] There's the table slamming. [laughs]

Turtles

Bartender, get him another drink!

Ben

I have drank like three-quarters of a bottle of wine, so, I'm sorry.

Turtles

Get him some pasta. [laughs]

Ben

[laughs] All right, sorry. This is about you all, not about me. Bestie in Christ, Mor!

Mor

[laughs] That was fantastic, thank you. I was bangin’ my desk over here like yessss, preach, take me to church! I am here to receive.

Ben

Why do you care so much about ITSAY?

Mor

Ohhh boy. A core memory for me from the last couple of years is sitting shell-shocked, absolutely shell-shocked on my couch, silently weeping, watching the credits of ITSAY roll for the first time. Truly just unable to move for probably ten, fifteen minutes, just trying to absorb everything that I just witnessed? And all I could think was, ‘things are different now.’ Truly, that was my reaction to it, I mean, this show? It wasn't made to fulfill a trope. It wasn't made to fill a time slot. It was made to show the tender beautiful humanity that is at the core of all love stories, regardless of the gender of the person you fall in love with, and that's just not something that I can say for a lot of other BLs, or shows period? Not that they don't stand on their own two feet for all sorts of other reasons, but it's something that set ITSAY forever apart for me. Not only that that was clearly their goal, but in how beautifully they achieved it, how perfectly in my opinion they achieved it. 

It was so realistic to my experience as a queer person, but it's also a show that I would feel very comfortable showing to someone who had no experience with the BL genre. Because you don't have to have any. You don't have to have an appreciation for it. You just have to be a person. You just have to be a human who has lived through tough human things, and had relationships, to find so much value, so much to relate to. I don't know how you can watch ITSAY and not have it just reverberate with you on some personal level. Whenever I discuss it with people, just like we've been doing tonight, I'm hearing things that even being — practically a priestess of ITSAY I feel like at this point — even with that I'm hearing things that I hadn't thought of before. And I think that's beautiful, that a show can be so elevated, and done so well that people from all walks of life can come to it, and come away with things that are just so true and accurate to their experience, and you learn things by hearing it, you know, hearing from them. But yeah it was so realistic to my experience as a queer person, while also giving a happily ever after, which was beautiful but it was also very hard won, which made it even more beautiful for me. The characters are real, they are flawed, but they figure it out… gives hope for the rest of us. [laughs] It raised production values. It raised the bar on what a BL can be. 

We did touch on a little bit about people debating whether or not ITSAY is a BL and I just have to say, whenever I'm debating anything I go to the source. And it was I believe a Teen Vogue article that BKPP were interviewed for: they both referred to the show as a BL, so have the writers, so has the crew, and if they are comfortable with addressing it as that, so am I. 

And then on a more personal note, it introduced me to BKPP my beloveds, to some of my best online friends, it got me halfway around the world to Thailand. Overall, it's an artistic and technical triumph as much it is is queer storytelling at its finest, it did everything it needed to in all the ways that it mattered, it moved me, it continues to, in a way that not much media ever has. It's got my whole heart and I could probably find something new to marvel about, you know, forever. It's as complicated and as, as simple as that for me

Ben

Thank you, Mor. I have been watching queer cinema for a very long time. Part of why ITSAY is so important to me, is no other piece of media has so consistently generated such strong visceral reactions. There's so many great pieces that you can pull out for people that many of them haven't seen, but there's something about ITSAY, where if you are aware of it at all, if you even heard its name, you know something about it, and have an opinion about it, whether you've watched it or not. And I also feel so strongly about watching Thai queer people talk so frankly about how they also had the same sort of visceral experiences that the rest of us had. 

What also matters for me about this show is, like we've had some interesting moments in the west: like Moonlight, Call Me By Your Name, other queer movies that have released, and we keep waiting for their impact to hit the rest of us. We felt the impact of ITSAY within a year of it releasing? ITSAY immediately impacted Korea's willingness to participate in BL, despite how conservative their film industry is. Japan re-upped their efforts on the genre… and GMMTV responding to that! We felt it all throughout late ‘21 early ‘22. It is so rare that you can point to a work that genuinely changed the way an entire genre functioned? And also really rare that you can feel that impact in its time. 

And with that: thank you all for joining us on this first clown panel of The Conversation! If there's anything you want to say to the people before we go?

Turtles

I just want to say what an honor it was to be invited on this. I love loving BLs and I love loving BLs along with you all.

Ben

Captain Hands.

Captain Hands

Sorry if we weren't as funny as David.

Ben

[laughs] That's impossible. He's an unhinged 45-year-old gay man. Aiden?

Aiden

One last thought that came up: ITSAY has this level of radical compassion for every single character on the screen, and that helps the viewer to have compassion even if they may be homophobic or unfamiliar, it brings a level of love and care to those characters, in a way that we really don't get, and I have high hopes that it's something that's going to be repeated again as we move forward.

Ben

Mor, any other closing thoughts?

Mor

Oh man, I don't know, I'm just all caught up in the ITSAY wave of feels, as I, as I tend to do. This show has a unique way of shutting down my logical brain and just making me feel all the things, which is what good art should do, dammit, it really should. So, it's doing its job. 

Go watch ITSAY! If y'all are listening to this and you haven't, what are you doing? Come on.

Ben

It's been three years, if you haven't watched it since 2020, go watch it again. It holds up. It's still good.

1:04:08 - Outro

Ben

And we're back. Fun fact for all of you: Nini's setup went completely to shit while we were recording, so she had no idea what the hell we were talking about. For the entire recording we're having to text her updates so she doesn't close down the recording booth. So, Nini is now reacting from post, not from the panel. 

Nini

[laughs] Yeah, it was a very interesting experience editing the panel not having heard a word that you guys said, so it was all brand new to me. That is a very new experience for me. 

Ben

She edited out all of the “Nini can't stop me because she's not here.” [both laugh]

Nini

Oh god, no, but it was really delightful. I had a really good time. I had a really hard time editing the panel, but there's some things that you guys brought up that really sort of tickled my brain, and I wanted to get into them while I was talking to you in the afters. 

Captain Hands made some comments on why Teh teaching Oh Chinese, with Chinese being Teh’s comfort language of expression, why that matters, and how the translation scene on the side of Promthep Cape plays into that. I found that was really interesting because that is new thinking for me, after three years and countless rewatches of this show I didn't think that there could be something about it that I hadn't thought about, or that was new to me, but thinking about Chinese as Teh’s comfort language—as his main language of expression. That brought up a whole new set of things to me in their relationship.

Ben

I have a couple of friends locally whose parents have immigrated from Taiwan, and they talk about how they have probably like a kindergartener's understanding of the language sometimes, and I hadn't thought about how Teh wasn't learning Chinese for the first time—that he may have had some familiarity from growing up around his mom. That was a fresh thought that I had coming out of the panel.

Nini

It just adds a little bit more color to what exactly Teh was doing in that class, what he was doing tutoring Oh-aew. How hard he worked to make sure that Oh-aew could understand him, because Teh is not great at expression, but the few times that he manages to express himself very clearly to Oh-aew it is in Chinese. Using the Chinese flashcards on the boat, writing and rewriting words in Chinese in his notebook. That's how he's able to get his points across to Oh-aew, and he can only do that because he's taught Oh-aew how to understand him. I found that was a really good observation. 

You made an observation as well that I really enjoyed about tourist places as safe spaces when you are from a tourist place, that going to do tourist things actually gives you a certain amount of anonymity that you wouldn't normally get. 

Ben

Some of the normal spaces like cafes, malls, etc. are populated by people that you would run into, but, like, locals are not going on a swamp tour. And so, you can get away with things that you might not elsewhere. Like, I think about the fact that Promthep Cape is a really popular tourist location, and the fact that when they were actually filming that scene very kind tourists stayed out of the camera, but were like two meters sometimes away from the boys while they're recording one of the most pivotal scenes of the series. And that's kind of what it's like when you're in tourist places in your hometown. Like there's a bunch of strangers crowding around you, and it doesn't matter if they hear you say something because they don't know any of your people.

Nini

One thing that Aiden brought forward that I really wanted to delve into myself: Aiden talked about visual style and how ITSAY allowed things to look grungy, and things to look worn, and things to look old, and things to look a little bit dirty; and how that contrasted against the previous BL impulse for everything to be bright and clean and shiny. And one of the things that made me think about from my own experience, how upset—I don't know if ‘upset’ is the term—people tend to get from my home country when my home country is portrayed outside as anything other than bright and shiny and clean and modern. There's that whole pressure to look a certain way to the outside world, and that comes through in our media as well. 

So watching that impulse sort of come through in Thai media, and then being sort of broken by this particular production. I always like when I'm watching media from other places when I can see the points of connection between my culture and another culture, between my home and another person's home, that always makes me feel more grounded in the story, even though it's a culture and a place that might be 180 degrees away from me. You can still find those very human points of connection. I really enjoyed that. 

Here's one that I want to ask you. You talked towards the end of the panel about Oh and The Knowing, and you've brought up The Knowing over and over again recently, and it's something that I've really been sitting with as you've explained certain things in your life and certain things in queer life, and one of the things that struck me listening to the panel that I think hadn't struck me before is that Oh Knows. Oh has The Knowing, but Teh also knows about Oh because Teh has a complete lack of surprise when Oh tells him that he likes Bas. He doesn't even register it as, like, a surprising thing. So Teh also has a Knowing about Oh but not about himself. I found that a really interesting juxtaposition.

Ben

Teh is an actor who's masking all the time. I think he was probably a little bit surprised, but when Oh tells him that secret, Teh's only goal is to desperately reconnect with Oh. So, I don't think in that moment he cares about Oh being queer. Like, Teh’s so stupid. He's not like paying attention to that sort of stuff. He only cares about Oh not shoving him away at that moment. Like, it didn't really matter what that secret was because he was going to respond positively.

Nini

I get that, but as the time goes on, we don't see any reaction from Teh about it, which is not the reaction that I would expect a teenage boy to have.

Ben

[sighs] When it comes to Teh, he's always performing. It's possible that he already knew these things, but I get the sense that he compartmentalizes. Like, a big part of it for Teh was he doesn't want to talk about it. Because talking about it makes it real, and then he has to face the reality of it. Like, that's what happens after the underwater kiss scene is Oh wants to talk about it and Teh really, really doesn't want to talk about it. It's possible that he knew, but because he's been away from Oh and so repressed, it's not eating at him.

Nini

I'll sit with that.

Ben

Teh doesn't act like he knew, but it's very clear that Oh was important to him, and he had to rapidly come to terms with those feelings.

Nini

I think it's pretty clear that Teh didn't know about himself. It's pretty clear that his journey I Told Sunset About You is a journey of understanding things that he didn't know and understand about himself.

Ben

Part of why I like that so much of Teh's journey is unspoken is it allows it to be more universal because it lets the audience at large take from Teh what they need and project into him what they're bringing to the scene, and this works out really well for Oh a lot, too, because Oh does so much with just looking at Teh.

There's some really great dialogue in the translations of this show, but there's a phenomenal amount of amazing work done from what isn't said, and that is one of my favorite things about it.

Nini

I also agree that one of the great things about ITSAY is how much is done in the silences and it's so interesting that you talked about the silences being something that the audience can project whatever they want onto and that being part of ITSAY’s success, because it's also in a way so legible. 

Normally when there's space like that for the audience to project onto we get all kinds of wild shit, like I’m just gonna be real with you. But the silences and the way that these two boys acted were so legible that even though there was all this silence between them, for all this space for the audience to project into, they generally projected what I think the creators intended because the reads were largely consistent in terms of how people were taking it in and how they were reading things.

Ben

I do think so, but a big part of that is how simple ITSAY’s story is. It's a very straightforward coming of age story in a lot of ways. That's why it works! Everything about ITSAY is inherently familiar, and it feels like an experience that people can enjoy again a decade, two, three decades from now. It's one of those classics you can go back and look at and you can probably point at where other projects referred back to it. 

I feel like I Told Sunset About You is going to be one of those projects where the future of queer coming-of-age cinema is going to refer back to it as one of its seminal moments.

Nini

So all that said, if we had to write at this point… an ode to ITSAY as our closing remarks on this retrospective, what would be your ode?

Ben

ITSAY is the best show that has ever existed because it is called I Told Sunset About You. It sets up this huge drama about running to the cape together before sunset, and they make it to the cape at sunset. Oh has this incredible breakdown and just says “I don't care what we're going to be to each other, just please don't leave me again,” and Teh, upending decades of genre history and expectation, says, “If I can be anything, can I be your boyfriend?” and old wounds finally closed in my heart.

Nini

Well, that is an ode. I don't think I could be anywhere as poetic as you about it, but what I will say is that this story touched something very deep inside me. I can't imagine not having seen this. I can't imagine where I would be now if I hadn't seen this. It changed things for me in a lot of ways, and that's one of my highest praises for media. If you change things for me, if you make me look at things differently, you've won. So, that's my ode to ITSAY: you won.

And with that we're gonna wrap this one up. Our next episode will be our Last Twilight in Phuket discussion. Ben and I are going to sit down and jaw about that a little bit, and then we will be introducing a fresh new panel and talking about I Promised You the Moon.

So look out for that. We out. Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace.

[martian-martian-martian]

I saw there were no timestamps for LESTAT: THE MUSICAL online so I bit the bullet and watched it for the first time and recorded this iconic bullshit myself in a play-by-play P.1

(WARNING: this is all bullshit that I found funny or interesting, apologies if not all the stamps are helpful.) I spent two hours on this so please reblog or like it. Part TWO will come soon.  (I also commented the stamps ON the youtube comments for the video so you can use them there for convenience.) 

Tagging all the vampire chronicles (??? related) people I know: @cara--corvaia , @lestatthebiprince @i-want-my-iwtv @vamp-prince-mikhael @tomorrow--mourning @moasfuck @hotvampiregoss @fuckinglovemanga @theweightwecarry @just-another-vcblog @thevampirelesthot @her-golden-hair Sorry to bother you if you dont know me, this is just a blatant ploy to befriend you all, and also, did I mention, you’re cool by the way. 

2:57 - Lestat can’t get his knife back in its fucking sheathe 3:22 - Lestat’s dad looks like Geralt of Rivia and you can’t change my mind. 4:00 - Gabrielle is That Bitch P.1 5:00 - Nicholas?!?! *scooby-doo “AROOO?” noise*   5:50 - Gabrielle is That Bitch P.2 SHE can BELT, y’all 6:10 - Lestat literally left 2 seconds ago and Gabi sings about how he’s gone. 

8:33 - First clap of the night, thank god, it was way too quiet so far 

8:52 - the stupidest fucking hats ive ever seen 

9:08 - Lestat is called a “country boy” and NICHOLAS!!!! 

9:40 - titties joke 

9:50 - this dude in a BERET is sending me, what ERA is he FROM what the FUCKKK 

10:00 -  someone’s head blocks the gay agenda 

10:38 - “yo dawg i heard you liked bad acting so i put some bad acting in your bad acting so you could badly act while you badly act” 

11:50- the audience laughs at obvious ‘only one bed trope’ that is obvious 

12:20 - Nicholas possibly fucked himself with a violin? 

12:33 - pig noises 

13:05 - the audience laughs at obvious Top Nicholas 

13:50 - catholicism 

14:05 - thats GAYYYYYYY p.1 

14:40 - JUMPSCARE 

14:50 - Lestat is bitten by this rando and cums instantly 

15:00 - thirsty boi om nom nom 

16:43 - Lestat can have a little kiss, as a treat. 

16:55 - “Well, I’m out” *creates fire out of nowhere, walks through it, and dies* 

20:10 - every time he says ‘thirst’ take a shot no just kidding dont haha unless… 

22:19 - one guy in the audience tries to clap then stops 

24:06 - “MOM, ITS MY TURN TO USE THE NICHOLAS” 

25:00 - tender ass love ballad is a tender ass love ballad 

29:00 - coming out to your mom as dead 

30:00 - Gabrielle’s voice gives me literal chills 

32:20 - do NOT laugh do NOT laugh this is NOT funny at all this is serious 

33:30 - Mulan 

33:55 - Gabrielle is That Bitch P.3 she really out here 

34:50 - Moooo-ooom, you’re embarrassing me. 

35:50 - Gabrielle is That Bitch P.4 

37:00 - antonio banderas the 300 year old EDGY BOY 

40:26 - armand has a teen voice crack (“thousands of yEaRs”) 

42:20 - this random person shoots their shot at armand and gets nerfed 

43:19 - “you would be beautiful if someone held you under a waterfall for several hours” HGHJGGHGHGHJGJH why would you say that?! 

43:35 - humans pretending to be vampires tell vampires to pretend to be humans pretending to be vampires. 

44:29 - armand drops nicholas like a sack of potatoes and made me laugh 

46:00 - that moment when suck your boyfriend too hard ladies amirite no wait  never mind he’s dying this is bad actually 46:40 thru 

50:00 -  vampires pretending to be humans pretending to be vampires BUT MAKE IT A HIGHSCHOOL MODERN DANCE SHOWCASE 

50:50 - armand said: nice theater. shame if i were to….steal it hundreds of years later. 

51:12 - thats GAYYYYYYY p. 2  X2 BONUS DOUBLE WHAMMY 

51:45 - they literally said “Nick was so pure his brain exploded rip” 

53:12 - get PWN’D armand you slut 

56:12 - if you listen closely you can hear my heart breaking 

57:00 - Gabrielle is That Bitch P.5 this whole song is bamf material 

58:55 - long-ass head kiss 

59:00 - “I DID NOT GIVE YOU THE DARK GIFT SO THAT YOU COULD WALK AWAY FROM ME.” 

 “I GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF LIFE KNOWING SOME DAY YOU WOULD WALK AWAY FROM ME!” 

1:00:30 - Gabrielle is That Bitch P.6 INCREDIBLE BELT 

1:00:50 - everyone is clapping! Clapping! Oh god, wait! Oh god they’re kissing! He’s kissing his mom! Clapping...peters out… you hear people go ‘oh’.... he is… kissing his mom...clapping...ends… 

1:01:00 - “I love you my son.” people laugh because incest 

1:04:19 - world’s saddest cookout 

1:05:20 - OH WELL I NEVER HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A VAMP SO CLEVER AS MAGICAL MISTER MAAAAAARIUSTOPHELEES

[verosvault]

🚨SPOILERS FOR FANTASY HIGH JUNIOR YEAR EPISODE 7🚨

Dimension20 "Fantasy High Junior Year"

Episode 7 "Stress Tested"

Timestamp: 00:53:31

Video Length: 4min. & 57sec.

Kristen talks to Yolanda about her Academics, Cassandra, and the Mysterious Voice she heard (Pt. 1 | ‣Pt. 2)

Yolanda: *shrugs* "That's my advice. It's the best I can do."

Kristen: "Okay."

Ally: "I start taking a bunch of notes. Maybe I can kinda combine this with my campaign."

Emily, Zac, and Siobhan just laughing! 😭✋

Lou just laughing with his head in his hands 😭💀🤣

Ally: "Just something really public. I mean, like, if I do a miracle that's gonna help the campaign."

Emily: "I kinda think the shrimp jump was a miracle."

Ally: "I think you're right. Can I ask her if the shrimp jump counts as my miracle?"

Yolanda: "It's been very good talking to you Miss Applebees. Thank you so much. Good day."

Kristen: "The tarter sauce was on fire!"

Brennan: *click*[Yolanda's door closing on Kristen]

Ally: "Was there any way for her to help me find out if Cassandra's alive? After I talk to her, can I find some quiet space in one of the Cleric rooms and try to convene with...?"

Brennan: "Yeah. Yeah, let's make this first check here. So this is gonna be for sort of like your religion essentially."

Ally: "Yes."

Brennan: "Go ahead and gimme a Religion check."

Ally: *rolls* "That is an 11."

Brennan: "Okay. Sitting in the quiet meditation room, the one where you saw Cassandra and saw Kalina before."

Ally: *has hand out to ask for a stress token* "I gotta do better than that."

Brennan: *evilly smiling* "Kristen digs deep in a way that I think Kristen sometimes hasn't in the past."

The awesome caption team: (ominous music)

Ally: *rolls" "Cassandra. Okay, a lot better. A lot better. That is a 22."

Brennan: *gasps* "Incredible. With that, as you begin your fall semester in the same meditation chamber where you saw Cassandra when she brought Kalina back, you feel yourself drifting, becoming distracted. And suddenly, feel eyes on you." *growls* "Shadow. Something ferocious moving nearby. Feel yourself becoming distracted, and suddenly you remember the symbol from the Forest of the Nightmare King. Whenever you're in the dark, I'm here holding your hand and you're not afraid of the dark. Cassandra is beyond your reach, but definitively is not dead. She cannot grant you spells, but is so removed from this place that you are not sure how to contact her. But these handful of shards of the divine essence you're holding onto, there's some tether or connection here. It's just- the line hasn't been cut but it doesn't have a current right now. Right? On that 22, can Kristen think of a time or moment that doubt or mystery has actually made her life better? A moment where there was some small miracle that was provided, some benefit to life made by mystery or doubt?"

Ally: "I think she spent so much time trapped and feeling, like, super wrong that doubt and mystery actually feel like a really beautiful escape, and more true."

Brennan: "The concept of escape hits you. And for a moment you hear." *clicking* "And all of the locks on the windows and all of the locks on the doors in this room just open slightly. A little bit of divine magic flows through you. You couldn't control it like your old spellcasting, but when you thought of escape, you thought of, yeah, embracing the unknown gives you the strength to leave a bad situation. Escape."

Ally: "If there's some way for me to kind of divinely put something together, I don't know, like pine needles from outside, something forest-like and kind of- not really cast a spell, but just do something kind of in ceremony to send to Cassandra that says, 'I'm sorry,' I would love to do something like that."

Brennan: "Beautiful. Anyone who wants to, after one of the Lo-Fi study nights out in the twilight, there's a beautiful ceremony. And on that 22, you do not lose Craig to Wolfsong. You see Craig shows up and goes,"

Craig: "Hey, sorry I've been a little outta touch. Work's been crazy."

Kristen: "Where do you work, Craig?"

Craig: "Oh, I work at Armor, Zombie and Lich."

Kristen: "Oh, that's why you're..."

Fabian: "Still?"

Kristen: "You smell so good. When you walked into the group, I could just smell the cologne."

Craig: "No, it's great. I know they blast it on you. They blast it on you."

Kristen: "Yeah. Okay."

Craig: "All right. Let's go, Cassandra."

Brennan's Laughter 😂👏

Ally: "Okay."

Brennan: "And there's a small ritual here. And I think for you to know on that 22, what came about was, like, an actual belief that Cassandra's presence in the world does good for people. And to the degree that you remembered escape and were like, 'Yeah, I have benefited from mystery and doubt. Like, really, concretely...' That made magic come back. And I think any instance that Kristen sees for doubt to do that will strengthen that connection. Awesome. 22. Huge success. And you took your first stress token."

[whitmerule]

Jacob Brent’s commentary part 3 - transcript

Here’s the transcript of part 1, the transcript of part 2, and the video for this part (re-uploaded on my channel since I assume it will be deleted from his soon). This one gets us about halfway through Tugger’s song before dying. And of course it contains him talking about John Partridge, and about missing the ball when Tugger kicked it at him.

-----

0:25 - Oh my gosh, hi everyone! I’m just waiting for everyone to maybe get back. We’re trying to figure out what’s happened here. Third time’s the charm, right?

1:30 - [responding to comments saying ‘don’t show the thumbnail of the movie, just give us timestamps’] Yeah, I think that’s what’s going to have to happen…. Hold on everyone. I’m just going to give it a second.

2:11 - Okay. We’re going to not show the video - so pull it up on two different screens. I’m going to tell you where we’re going to start. …

3:00 - I’m going to start at the beginning of Tugger, and then… Okay. I’m starting at Tugger. Top of Tugger.

[Yes, I was impressed that everyone in the comments section managed to restrain themselves when he said that.]

I love - and my screen’s over here, which is why I keep looking over here - So!

3:45 - Oh! Oh! Okay! So! If you’re watching Tugger, he’s about to kick the ball, and if you watch - I am… going to miss the ball. Right here.

So I was supposed to catch the ball, and then I missed it. 

4:30 - So this is the amazing John Partridge, who is just… I mean, if there ever was a Tugger he just embodies Tugger. What I love about the video is that I feel like everybody’s really their character, in real life, everybody - “terrible bore!” Ha! Yes! Shade, shade before I knew what shade was - but Johnny was just fantastic, and he was one of those guys that everybody wanted to be around in life, in person - I’m talking like he’s not here, he’s totally here. In fact he’s just won top chef…? In the UK, I believe? So there you have it. He really just was - he’s always very funny, and made us all laugh, and he’s just… really Tugger.

5:42 - I love this choreography in the show. There’s so much to it.

6:20 - So during this part - oh my gosh, look at that needlepoint thing. Let me tell you about that. So during this part in the show Tugger usually went out into the audience, and he would play with people, get someone up to dance, until on Broadway there was a little moment when somebody tried to sue because they were so embarrassed by this moment. But in the film we couldn’t do that because w had no audience, we shot this with no audience, so we had to come up with something else, so we -

(livestream dies a final, much regretted death - he promised he’d record a commentary and put it up as a whole video later)

[alittledizzy]

Hi, Mandy! The podcast with Phil is up! When you have time to listen to it, do you think, you could share some of your thoughts with us? Maybe even do some time stamps with commentary? Like, of course no pressure, but it would be awesome if you decide to express your opinion on the matter ;))) Have a nice day 🌷

My main thought: I love how much more comfortable Phil is talking about his anxiety and things that make/made him anxious now. I’ve never heard him dig in quite so much on how his brain works with insecurities and how intense he can be about editing and how that can cause him to mentally spiral with anxiety. 

Besides that, I don’t think he said much here we didn’t already know, but I sure as heck enjoyed listening to him say it all again. 

Timestamps!

2:30 - Phil would have shown up in pajamas if he’d known it was for a podcast. 2:37 - Interviewer asks Phil when he first realizes he was creative. “I think I just came out of the womb and did jazz hands in the hospital.” 3:00 - His parents gave him a video camera for Christmas when he was eight and he made little friends with his friends. He talks about the horror film he and his friends made when they were ten (that he’s made youtube videos about). He learned to edit then by pausing a video cassette tape and putting the footage in and editing in real time, before he could do it on a computer. He doesn’t know where that creativity came from, but he’s been making videos as long as he’s been able to make videos. 3:51 - He used to watch movies hundreds of times. He wore out the Gremlins VHS tape. He wanted to make things like that, or his own version of that entertainment. 4:05 - Gizmo the Gremlin was his mentor. No, he didn’t have a mentor, but he’s thankful to his parents for letting him do it. If he’d done his homework they’d just say, “Go for it. I’ll get you a video camera if you want to make videos.” He acknowledges that not everyone had that means of doing it, though now everyone has a phone and anyone can do it if they wanted to with a phone recording. 4:40 - When he was young his family was mostly his audience, though they let him play the horror film he made when he was ten at school. “I think having that audience reaction, I was like oh people are actually laughing and enjoying it.” 5:20 - He started youtube because he was impressed by the fact that anyone, anywhere can make something and have the chance to broadcast yourself. He saw people like Smosh and LonelyGirl15. He liked watching people’s lives all over the world. 6:01 - He got two comments on his first video and couldn’t believe it. One from Australia and one ‘somewhere else’ saw it and cared. 6:39 - He had imposter syndrome at the first Vidcon he went to. He went into a party and thought he shouldn’t be in the same room as people like Smosh. It was a learning experience. 6:58 - He found it crazy that a hundred people would come to a panel or meet and greet to see him and it made him feel like this was real, it was really happening. 7:32 - The interviewer asks him how he’s maintained trust with the audience and his answer is, “You’d have to ask the audience, they’re the ones that are still watching. 7:40 - He thinks being himself in his videos has help, he hasn’t had the need to reinvent himself or become somebody else. He feels like his audience are more friends than fans. 8:26 - "You have your long term collaborator, Dan Howell-” “Yes.” 8:27 - He finds it refreshing to collaborate, especially in comedy videos. He thinks he works well in an improvisation style environment, like on the gaming channel. It helps to have someone to laugh and have comedy banter with. It also helps to have someone else with creative ideas so you aren’t in your own head all the time. 9:20 - The interviewer asks about the transition from youtube to the stage shows. It was a big leap - they had ten crew members and it was a learning curve. He’s quite a shy person so going on stage in front of 2000 people was far out of his comfort zone compared to making videos alone. “It was kind of… fighting off my anxiety and thinking, I can do this, these people are here to see me for a reason.” 10:33 - They interviewed potential crew members (about a five minute interview) and they needed to be other creative people and understand the internet. They needed people who understood what they were making, and also wanted people that had a sense of humor and knew how to have a laugh. 11:30 - Specifically talking about TATINOF: they were trying to turn everything people loved about their youtube videos into a stage show, with a narrative flowing through the whole thing. They wanted it to be bigger than anything anyone had seen from youtubers before. 12:12 - You will not be seeing Phil on Strictly any time soon. 12:45 - TATINOF was about 70% scripted but it got changed up based on what the audience were like or what the reactions were. American found different jokes funny than Sweden and they learned to change and mold it. 13:09 - During TATINOF learned he can actually do scripted stuff, because there were scripted sections. He used to say he can’t act but he thinks he did okay with the scripted stuff in TATINOF. 13:52 - Section about the Radio 1 show. It started with him and Dan collaborating as youtubers with Radio 1, and the BBC decided to give them a show. He specifically says that Youtube say how many good comments and views youtube videos get, and that’s how the show came about. It started freelance and then they got the main show. 14:40 - With the radio show, because it’s live you really have to be aware of what you’re saying. There’s an art to working the desk with the music in the background and when to dip it down. They were learning on the go and it was terrifying. For the first three months he’d wake up in the middle of the night with night sweats and have nightmares about saying something wrong. He had panic dreams about the radio, but they got into a flow and he thinks it was an entertaining and innovative radio show. He always likes something that pushes the boundaries of the technology. 15:25 - He shades how 'old school’ the radio is because they had to play music videos off of dvds. If a dvd skipped or broke then the show would just go off air and they’d have to improvise. It was good preparation for doing stuff on stage. 15:55 - He talks about the stage show in America that lost power and improvising it in an unplugged way. He was relieved when people were happy with it. 16:38 - He thinks there are things traditional media could take from digital media: free flowing, less restrictions. On the radio ideas had to go through about ten processes. “By the time you’ve gone through these ten steps of checking, the fun of the creativity is gone about. It’s not about breaking the rules, it’s about trying to be more improvisational and spontaneous when you can. Not everything needs signing off by five people before you tell a joke.” 27:49 - He likes that youtube is more fresh and reactive to pop culture. It feels fresher than television - cites people doing the floss dance on Netflix shows now. It was funny a year ago, and it was written a year ago, but it’s not as funny now. 18:35 - The positive to traditional media is more people bringing experienced voices to the table helping you develop something. Youtubers know a few things instinctively but someone that’s been a scriptwriter for ten years can completely blow your mind. 19:25 - He would like to think the main thing his audience values is authenticity, but he actually thinks it is accessibility that they value more. He’s not like a movie or pop star. 20:14 - He’s fourteen years in and still tries to think of videos that would make him laugh or he wants to watch, but he’s trying to branch out some this year. “Trying new things.” He doesn’t think there’s any shame in seeing someone else’s video and thinking of doing his own take on that. 21:20 - He looks to Safiya Nygard for inspiration - he likes that there’s so much research and planning in her videos. Even if it’s a silly video she has all the facts and goes to all the videos. He got to meet her the last Vidcon and it was nice to hang out with her. 21:56 - He’s inspired by traditional media, too. For a long time it was Scot Pilgrim vs. the World, he used to think if he was going to make a video that was it. He starts talking about editing here and goes in pretty hard on what editing means to him over the next few minutes. 22:50 - He’s good at suspending his disbelief. It’s a good sign if you’re lost in a world. When he saw 1917, he forgot he was in the cinema. 23:13 - “It’s more when I’m watching my own videos, I can’t - I find it really hard to watch it as a viewer. I find I’m so critical of myself and I just see the edits and I’m just like, oh that could be different, that could be different. And even if after I’ve uploaded it I’ll get a text from my friend and they’re like 'oh that was so funny’ but in my head I’m like oh but I could have cut two seconds off that bit. So I think I should learn, and other people should learn, not to be so critical of yourself. Because there can be a point where - I made a video in December and I was looking back at the footage and I was like, I can’t upload this, this isn’t  - this isn’t good enough. But then I just persevered with the editing and it turned out to be really funny. But that self doubt was creeping in like, people aren’t gonna watch this, people aren’t gonna like this. So I need to work on that a bit and think - if people are enjoying my videos I should be able to enjoy them as well.”24:11 - It’s hard not to be numbers obsessed because youtube tells you as soon as you sign in what’s performing well and not. You don’t want to get that feeling when you first log in to your channel, and you can’t really avoid it. “You’ve got to see it as a learning thing rather than an everybody hates me thing.” 25:42 - Once a video is out in the world, he lets it go. He doesn’t obsess over it. He’s more critical in the editing process and actually pressing go rather than after the fact. 26:08 - He’s particularly proud of his coming out video because of the unexpected reaction. The video production wasn’t incredible but he’s proud of the message. 26:40 - They ask him how he’d have felt in 2006 knowing where he’s at now. “No. I’d probably run away.” 26:47 - “I was so shy and anxious, I couldn’t even like… phone for a hairdressers appointment. I was that nervous about public interaction and talking and stuff like that. So the fact that I’ve got to this level now where I can go on stage or talk on a panel it’s just like - it’s kind of mindblowing looking back at where I was. I’m proud of myself for that.” 27:15 - He’s ready to sink his teeth into a big new project, to do something new that’s very Phil and his own thing. He’s obsessed with interactivity. He was making interactive videos ten years ago with youtube annotations and he thinks now broadcasters and traditional media is more accepting of that technology and narrative structure. 28:15 - He pitched one interactive thing that didn’t work out. He shouts out Complex and also Markiplier’s interactive youtube original. 29:02 - It’s good to get feedback on an idea that’s rejected. It would be weird if everyone said yes all the time. He goes a bit in depth here on potential reasons why a project may be rejected and not taking it as an attack or a big negative thing. 30:33 - If he made a film he’d write it, not be the star of it. He’s excited to see where that creative process goes. He’s written a few short stories and tried a long form script. He’s a control freak so he won’t release it until it’s perfect. 31:03 - He sees Youtube as his work, and scripting and pitches as a hobby. He’s not under a deadline with writing and can enjoy free flowing creativity, unlike youtube where he needs to make a video every week. 32:00 - Discussion about the illustrator they had for TABINOF, who worked on The Mighty Boosh.33:00 - When ask him for one thing he’s inspired by at the moment, he says Bandersnatch and talks about it a bit. He still has Scott Pilgrim and Gremlins in his heart, though. “Gizmo’s the one.”

[autumn-in-phandom]

“Did Dan get TOO TAN?”

(Sept 19th 2017 Dan liveshow timestamps)  

0:03 After an awkward pause and salute: “Hello cyber friends” (instant regret and reflection)

0:29 (Dear god, don’t grab your laptop by the screen like that Dan.)

0:44 Grimace #1

1:06 No Dan, you do not look *atol* different. That tweet, title and pic are all just clickbait.

1:10 (Bronze my ass.)

1:19 Hitting us with that meme.

1:25 (Didn’t need to be in your face thanks. Teasing angles?)

1:36 “Never say Trumpy ever again, in any circumstance.”

1:45 Lovely pores and freckles.

2:00 Obviously everyone subscribes to YouTubers for their freckle content.

2:30 Livestreams are “a mistake” because of the chat clinging on to one thing and spamming it.

2:40 No probing or questioning at airport, big grin.

3:01 “The broadband is terrible but the 4G is great.” Okay…

3:17 “The toasty Dan experience”, orangish filter.

3:26 Double rhyme: “I guess that’s a rhyme, yeah that’s fine” (okay it’s a slant rhyme)

3:47 “Buttered crumpet Daniel.”

4:02 “Went to an island in the Mediterranean.” (This is exactly the answer I expected and quite frankly the only one he should give.)

4:09 “Literally did nothing for about six days, it was great.”

4:15 ‘I am Pilgrim’ book recommended by his mum.

4:30 Tricked into reading 900 page book.

5:00 Holiday was incredibly relaxing.

5:10 “Ordeal” getting there, delayed flight, three hours “traumatizing”

5:22 “Haha long boye” “literally, shins driving into my chest, bleeding” alright hyperbolic humor Dan. “Tough.”

5:38 “Violated” on flight by guy’s elbows, “no respect for personal space”, “fully leaning into me”, “didn’t even care”, “honestly an icon for all of us.” (Was it Phil?)

6:03 3 am, old driver, mini bus, cliff roads, did pre-ritual preparing for death.

7:00 “So much yogurt”, doesn’t know why.

7:05 “Assaggetti” tweet, we can shame him, “has the worst sense of humor in the world”, check it out and unsubscribe, doesn’t remember the language (Italian), apologizes, “constantly problematic”.

7:55 “Got that D from the S up above” (vitamin D, or Phil…)

8:16 Phil came on the holiday in case anyone didn’t know.

8:18 “He went from like glass to pale ivory, which is good”, “Phil is someome who erupts in freckles whenever he goes outside, so it’s hard to tell if he tans or if your eyes are just kinda like drawing the dots between the space all the freckles are, if you know what I’m saying.” (Wow, I… I’d like to think you mean what I know, but I’m not sure. Wow.)

8:37 Someone in the chat: “Nice Ursa Major on that cheek boy”. Turn, pose, laugh.

8:41 “The Bigger Dipper of my self esteem.”

8:53 Good day: watched Bake Off and answered emails, “thrilling”.

9:13 Tumblr likes, fan art, “beautiful to celebrate the great people.”

9:43 “The internet is not here”, laughs, sighs, apologizes.

9:55 Some peer pressure advice.

10:25 Had to check what his video title is.

10:35 I don’t know why he bothers to ask if we watched either.

10:55 Accept that he does things by his British calendar.

11:11 Why he didn’t he talk about uni stories when it was happening. Ashamed? Yeah, processing turmoil at the time.

11:55 Now shares traumatizing, terrifying, shameful, embarrassing stories straight away.

12:15 Rowing club guy AU… (not what I was thinking)

12:46 Laundry story: Phil was nice, Dan didn’t ask, *literally* ordered a cab, turned up with suitcase, Phil assumed he dropped out and was moving in, “I’ve had a day and I’m going to wash my socks in your washing machine.”

13:13 “If you struggle to function as a person-” (I really wish he had finished this sentence)

13:15 Asda sponsor for crying in the cheese aisle?

13:23 Pasta burn shaming (were you just never in the kitchen with your mum Dan?)

13:36 Dropping laptop so much recently.

14:00 Never taught cooking, laundry, accounting.

14:18 “No one told me shit!” (in Dan’s face again).

14:33 “What happens when I’m 23?! How do I do a tax?!”

14:54 It was ravioli (pretty sure the instructions mentioned water Dan…)

15:15 Thick as in stupid, not thicc fat booty.

15:30 “Look Fatima, we all have different life experiences, okay?” (lol)

15:36 “Ravioli ravioli, give me the death I deserveioli.” Relates.

15:45 Rihanna livestream, forehead fetishist? Wouldn’t mind if anyone leaves for that.  

16:08 Not up on BTS, DNA.

16:33 Shames Eden for “let me see that pastussy” comment, “leave.”

16:45 “Love on the Brain”. He really loves Rihanna, amazing, blessing, doesn’t give a shit, casual, informal, etc. “Bitch Better Have My Money.”

17:25 Is sure BTS video with be “pure and beautiful”, expects “softly applied eyeshadow and very fluffy hair”, he’s sure he’ll enjoy.

17:38 Maybe new gaming video/livestream tomorrow.

17:45 Overcooked, ironic kitchen fire, foreshadowing.

18:08 Wasn’t sure if he should get into Chinese guy story again, but he has to.

18:13 Deep breath: “It was 4 am, I’d been you know, well hydrated that evening, but I decided I needed another drink” go into the kitchen, everyone else was asleep, guy had a whole chicken, with neck and feet, fine but surprising, tiniest pair of white y-fronts, hacked head off and made eye contact, just couldn’t, usually would awaken some kink in him…

19:39 Pool pic, shout out to friend, no consent, relaxing, absorbing sun like a lizard, *basking*, fell asleep, lucky it was a pool and he didn’t drift out to sea, sun stroke vid reference, “the bad tan”.

21:08 People saying “trying to be cute”, the double chins (really?!)

21:21 The least Dan-like photo.

21:33 Thought it would ruin his Instagram aesthetic.

22:10 Lack of other content: relaxing, reading,

22:24 Took a couple other photos, sunset selfie, “no one’s going to take a photo of me” (what the hell happened to your personal photographer?) but then people came (please post, please!)

23:40 Bake off is his life, “Noel Feilding is a national treasure”, caramel was torture while hungry, faves are Liam and not!Val (what did he whisper about Liam? Really wanted him to be…?)

24:30 *Maybe* Halloween Baking, they don’t think that far ahead about anything.

24:48 Phil’s role in Dan’s video, mugging scene took nine takes, afraid to punch him. Outtakes please!

26:03 (grimace #2) “Hello Grandma, my name is Daniel, I’m a wholesome person, that’s a very great influence”

26:16 Wachowski films

26:23 Dan floating in donut plushies would be very challenging.

26:33 Dan flips a bit at the idea that’s it’s weird to like people who don’t know who you are. Uses Ed Sheeran as example.

26:55 Scrolls past person who said they feel better when they have a dream about Dan and Phil.

27:17 Cared more about YouTube than university socializing and class, Pom Bear Massacre reference, made Tumblr account.

29:09 Chapped lips, season changed the moment he stepped off the plane.

29:42 “Okay Universe, I know I can be a bit of a downer, sometimes.”

29:51 Haley Barry Storm powers

30:08 Yes the furry blanket comes out, polyester, sad pimp, Marks & Spencer.

31:06 Ready for everything seasonal, autumnal Yankee Candle range, not haute, but fun themes.

31:31 Frisbee laptop across the room on to the bed, missed.

31:46 Candle haul, yes it is content we need right now!

32:26 Furry invasion on Splatoon, scaley, yiffing proposition, “this is a family game”, not shaming just concerned for kids, though it is hentai-esque…

33:27 Sonic: 2010 reminiscing, formatting of boxes.

34:04 Was stupid side kick, Phil being good, Dan trying to be helpful, actual just a cheerleader, Phil was disgusting, doesn’t know if Phil even knew what he was saying (of course he did).

34:38 Didn’t know uni vid was trending

34:52 Reflection (I think that’s the piano nook)

35:00 Weird because of swearing, someone at YT didn’t watch the vid, “Ah, keep doing that, don’t watch my videos, just know that I’m a good person…”

35:25 “I make great friendly content.” (grimace #3)

35:30 Explains why trending isn’t automatic. Yes, think of the children.

36:05 “But hey, I’m not bad, everything’s fine”.

36:45 “People of all genders do and don’t wear makeup”.

37:10 (I’m pretty sure that the no candles with birds is because of the fumes.)

37:25 What is with the nose touching when confirming Spooky Week? “Next video (nose touch) soon, don’t worry”…?

38:28 “Fans of everything are annoying, that’s just what happens when people are enthusiastic about stuff.”

39:19 Dan doesn’t get annoyed by different fandoms. Says more about the people being annoyed, part of their own insecurity, their lack of community, togetherness, celebration, shared experiences, jealous or sad, or maybe everyone just everyone’s annoying.

39:56 Dream Daddy: so dangerous saying Dilddy. Dan likes Damien, great taste, immaculate presentation, probably not Dilddy’s romantic soulmate.

40:31 Dan is in like ten fandoms (makes a face).

40:45 Chat: “Will Phil become a furry, what’s your fursona?” Dan: “Is it time to go?”

40:55 Has never thought about it, promises he’ll get on it soon, he knows what the internet wants from him.

41:31 Chat full of fursona suggestions. He’s going to start crying.

41:52 “A llama fucking hell.” “Look at the time.”

42:01 Going to go into a (not disturbing) hole later looking into axoltl fur suits.

42:24 Elf on a shelf meme, was going to post a Dan one, “old meme!” (Still don’t need to be up in your face Daniel.)

43:27 Really wants to go see IT, needs to see Mother.

44:04 Shut up! American Horror Story, makes him happy. Loves Sarah Paulson (is his life), feels represented by a lesbian with anxiety. Evan Peters is great, looks gross, or great depending.

45:25 His fursona should be a big bear, I agree. What a reaction.

45:46 Left comb on holiday, looks like a bush.

46:13 (grimace #4 at group chat names.)

46:20 “What is wrong with all of you?”

46:22 Glosses over diet ask. Indeed.

46:26 “Don’t call me Uncle Dan when we’re talking about fursonas.”

46:36 “If you live in Australia vote for marriage equality, we don’t need to have this conversation.” “Come on, come on Australia, sort your shit out.”

47:03 Going to “innocently Google things that are fine”.

47:22 “Me and Phil would love to come to Russia”.

47:27 Limitations of TATINOF.

47:44 Watch uni vid: “Don’t take it too seriously. Remember that most of the time I’m just trying to be funny, and if you ever want like my real feelings or opinions, just think about whatever the opposite of what I’m saying is, and that’s usually how to get to the sincere heart of whatever Dan’s talking about.”

48:13 “Stay calm, ask some senpais for some life advice and think carefully about what your fursona should be.”

[mizukikuramoto]

“KILL JA̶CKSEPTICEYE | Bio IN̵̛c Redemp T̨I̶̢on” Analysis + Theory

I don’t know if this is going to get any attention in the tag... that’s alright if it doesn’t. I just want to collect my thoughts into an analysis and a theory.

Well well well... Anti is back for more, and we also had the pleasure of seeing Dr.Schnee in action... Let’s just get to the point. Hey g͚̘͉̘̖̼̤͒̓̆̓͌̚͡ĺ̷̞̙̰̳͔̯̼̞̓̆͑̃̚͢͝ȉ̵̬͕̖̥͊̉̐̕̕̚͜͠ẗ̡̻̝͍͇́̑̈́̔̽̄͞͡͡ͅc̷̬̳̭͉͉͚̹̗̏͑̊̌̐̇͛́͡͡ͅh̦̘̪̥̽̾̒̋̉̃̀ͅ b̷̧̠͖̦̗̍͌̑̈́͗̇̕͜͠͡͠i̶̯̭͔̪̭̫͍̣͍̳͑́̈̉͌̆͞ţ̧̭͕̭̙̩͔̭̲͛̈̄̓̊c̬̰̞͔̹̱̙̪̹̳̉͌̀̃̒̑̚͡ḣ̶̨̜͙̜̙̔̈̋̋̕̕͝!̨̛̛̞̠̳͕̌͌̎̓͐͆͢ I’m going to shoot your plans out of the water!

But first, let’s dissect this video a little bit. I’ll be using time stamps as a reference. 

[0:39 - 0:45] Jack feels sick and steps out of the video, covering his mouth as if he’s about to throw up.

[0:47] Ze good Doctah takes over! He is confident, per usual.

[1:22 - 1:28] “JackSepticEye. . . he is one of my dear friends.” Normal for an alternative ego to have a correlating relationship with the ‘main ego.’ He expresses an attachment to Jack.

[2:00 - 2:10] “Taking shape, taking form. You do not look the best. You do not look the way you have always looked. You do not look like... yourself...” A bit weird to say that after assuming a stomach problem. It’s as if Dr.Schneep is aware of Jack’s disposition, that Anti is slowly taking control of him and that it’s physically taking a toll on him... well, perhaps appearance wise, but the video in itself is showing that Anti is causing Jack to slowly inch to death.

[2:22] The first glitch is seen. Subtle, sudden. Dr.Schneep appears to be fine.

[2:57 - 3:02] “Always. Always with the mood swings, one time he is one person, the next time he is a completely different person.” I’m probably looking at this too much... I just found this interesting.

[3:07] Ze doctah’s eye is itchy... ehh, it’s probably because Jack’s eye is itchy. Nothing more probably.

[3:41 - 3:45] Dr.Schneep starts to worry about Jack. The appropriate response for a concerning doctor and friend.

[4:14] The second glitch is seen. Longer than the first. It looks like Dr.Schneep is getting a nose bleed, just like how Jack got one from the “Say Goodbye” video. This could be Anti infecting him.

[4:18 - 4:28] “I saved my very good friend Chase. Chase Brody, he went back. He saw his family. Did they take him back? We may never know--” I mean, there’s speculation that Anti already got Chase. I saw a picture of Anti with his hat in a post. Just a thought. Dr.Schneep is getting a bit more concerned.

[4:54] Preeeety specific with the ‘anti’ in anti-coagulants...

[5:03 - 5:12] “If something gets inside your body, and it wants to destroy you from the inside out, there’s only one way to deal with it and that way is SCHNEEPLESTEN.” Things are starting to get serious. It’s just like timestamp [2:00 - 2:10], it’s as if he knows that Anti is slowly gaining more control over Jack. The third glitch shows ze doctah with black eyes, just like Anti’s. Anti has now fully infected Dr.Schneep, and I think he knows it too. 

[5:12 - 5:25] “You’re not... looking yourself. It’s getting very warm in here. . . very scary, very, very, nervous.” He is reaaaaally stressing out at this point. He’s trying to compose himself, but he is really worried about Jack and he’s getting flustered. Him saying that it’s very warm is probably due to him panicking.

[5:26 - 5:34] “What is happening? I feel it in my own arm.” Jack and Dr.Schneep are one and the same, they have a connection. Maybe it’s a heightened connection since Anti is inflicting pain on Jack while infecting ze Doctah. 

[6:03] The fourth glitch happens. Dr.Schneep is rubbing his neck. It possibly connects to the slit on Anti’s neck? The one he stitched? 

[6:32] The fifth glitch happens. Ze doctah is stressed out of his mind.’

[6:38 - 6:43] “You need... get... whatever is inside that brain! Whatever is inside, we need to get it out!” He is fully aware of what is happening to him, and he is stressing out big time because he is going to lose Jack if he doesn’t do anything. The sixth glitch shows Dr.Schneep convulsing, as if possessed.

[6:44 - 6:47] The flickering of the glitches are becoming more frequent, and Anti’s voice emanates from Dr.Schneep’s voice when he says ‘die.’

[6:49 -6:54] “Not again, I will not lose you. I almost lost you once before.” HE’S ADMITTING THAT HE STITCHED AND HEALED ANTI AFTER “SAY GOODBYE!” This is it! After Jack killed himself, Anti took over his body, and ze doctah stitched him back together. It’s still Jack’s body nonetheless! More flickering occurs.

[6:58] Dr.Schneep is freaking out, he has no idea what to do. He’s going to lose Jack. He is panicking.

[7:15] His attempts to save Jack are becoming futile. Systems failure is in the Zalgo/creepy font in cc. The camera flickers dimly to reveal Anti for the first time, smiling at us. Anti knows that he’s going to kill Jack, again.

[7:40 - 7:48] Dr.Schneep grows anxious.Anti speaks out from ze doctah with maniacal laughter. Anti has more control over him. 

[7:51 - 8:02] “Ve need to save him-- I need your help!!” Dr.Schneep is being driven by fear and panic. The feedback of the camera is lagging. He knows his demise is coming, and now he’s screaming at the audience to help Jack. He knows that we, the community, can stop Anti, but he alone cannot. Anti continues to speak over ze doctah, telling the audience to save him and not Jack... just like he always wanted us to do. (By the way that was a pretty cool transition from Sean to Anti c:)

[8:05 - 8:10] “Antidepressants, Anti-- depress--press--press--press. We have to depress Anti--and--get him out of there!” He’s trying to fight against Anti’s influence. He doesn’t have that much time, and now he’s trying to go against the glitch to send the community a message to stop Anti.

[8:11 - 8:20] Anti fights back and manipulates Dr.Schneep’s body to hang itself on the cord of his headphones. Ze doctah- thank goodness that this happened- breaks out of Anti’s control and continues to do his best to save Jack. This shows that he was, originally, one of the strongest egos among Jack’s alternatives. Sadly, he’s losing the battle as he is slowly fusing with the glitches of the video.

[8:24 - 8:29] Dr.Schneep is stuck in the control of Anti’s glitch, which is apparent from his repetitive, yet contorted, mention of anti-coagulants. His movement is synced with Anti’s as the camera flickers between ze doctah and Anti, signifying that Anti has full control over him now. Their expressions match, the madness is taking over him with every pulse of a glitch.

[8:30 - 8:46] Ze doctah’s pain is either the connection with Jack slowly dying, or the pain is from Anti which he is inflicting upon him. Anti, in the background, continues to laugh as Dr.Schneep succumbs to the realization that Jack will die, that whatever he did made Jack worse, that his efforts were wasted on someone that was going to die.

This is Anti’s part. I’m just going to list out the important parts he says.

“im tired of playing pretend! sick of it!”

“and you thought you had him back”

 “they all follow me”

“ive kept control all of this time!”

“i am eternal, always!”

“fooling around over, and OVER! in fucking circles!”

“mocking me with your ‘glitch bitch’ ” ha yeah shut up Anti you are a glitch bitch

“that doctor thought he could save him but he was MINE! he was weak!”

"who do you think youve been watching all of this time”

“powerless”

“my puppets”

“there are no strings on me”

So... what now. 

What does Anti want? What is he going to do? Jack is dead... again. What happened to Dr.Schneeplesten? I have a few ideas as to what’s going to come in the future.

There’s a few new things he mentioned during his little hissy fit: “my puppets” and “there are no strings on me.” He’s talking as if he is a puppeteer, the one pulling strings in this entire predicament. He wants- desires for power, for control, and as we were watching,”powerless” and unable to do much at first, he was ever so slowly getting what he wanted. From this video, it appears that Dr.Schneeplesten is now under Anti’s control, making the strongest of the bunch submit to Anti’s will. It’s just like what ze doctah said: “If one goes down, then they all go down.” Anti is planning to take down every other alternative ego and to break their will so that he could enter easily within them. He was able to successfully infect Dr.Schneep by making him feel helpless. Anti slowly pushed Jack to death and Dr.Schneep couldn’t do anything about it, causing him to spiral into a heap of panic and mistakes. He was mentally broken, and that was when Anti entered. If he was able to do that to him, then think about what he could possibly do to the rest of them?

What I fear is that Anti will use all of the alternative egos against Jack. Jack’s creations will turn against him.They will torture him, just like how Anti did to ze doctah. They will do all the dirty work, and Anti will grab the opportunity to possess Jack and fully control him. In a way, it’s like a computer: if you take down all of the smaller systems in a huge one, then you can hit the center core of the process with ease.

Now... what can we do?

We fight back. We can think two steps ahead of what Anti is planning. We continue to strengthen our will for Jack to come back- especially when he broke his two video streak OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ANTI YOU BITCH- and to make sure that we #saveseptic/#septicsave rather than save Anti. If we break now in a heap of worry, which is honestly working Anti WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO JACK, then we are playing right into the his hands.

Let’s do this for Dr.Schneep! For Jack! We are more than one person. We are a community. We’re not going to let some petty glitch take over Jack!

On another lighter note, I hope that you enjoyed my analysis, interpretation, and theory! I would really love your feedback please dont roast me alive. I’ll be honest, I’m scared to post this over tumblr. It’s moreso that it might get negative feedback, but that’s the risk that I must accept. I never really popped my head and put my input in stuff, especially in Mark’s and Jack’s community, so yeah ^^’

Have a good day all. Stay awesome, you are all amazing.

[floyuki702]

Your Medley - Chapter 2

Summary: I remember the first time we met. It was a day that, unknowingly, changed my life into one of adventure. I just wish that it lasted longer than it did…

Characters: Youngjae (GOT7) x Reader

Chapter 1

🎼🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵 

나를 보면 색다르대 (You know)

내가 좀 남다르대

그냥 내게로 다가와 지금 내게로 다가와

아무 생각하지 마 (I know)

후회하지 않을 걸

그냥 내게로 다가와  지금 내게로 다가와

🎼🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵🎶🎵 

“Alright everyone, remember to study chapters 1-10 and I will see you next week for the final.”

Immediately, rustling sounded throughout the lecture hall as we all packed up and headed towards freedom. With it being study week, all of our classes were ending early in order to allow time to refill our brains with information we have not touched upon since the beginning of the semester.

Taking my time, I made sure I packed up my notes, pen and textbook as the mad rush towards the door caused a block of students. On a normal day, the room would be cleared out in a matter of seconds. Today, there must have been a huge crowd just outside the door because everyone in my class seemed to be stuck at the only exit. Seeing the situation, the professor heaved a great sigh, packed up and fiddled with some apps on his phone.

Taking a page out of his book, as I continued to wait, I threw my backpack on my back, situated myself on the desk I claimed as mine on the first week (first row, third chair from the right wall) and pulled out my phone from my back pocket.

If it was any other lecture, that meant it would be the last thing I packed up because I would use it to record what was said. Since this professor loved to go off on a tangent, I learned almost immediately that recording was a lifesaver - especially when studying for tests.

Today was a special occasion.

Since he informed us that the final was going to be questions pulled from previous tests, quizzes and homework, I made the ultimate decision to just put it on silent and kept it in my pocket. As I turned on the screen, my eyes widened in surprise on the amount of texts received from Amethyst along with about 10 missed calls from said person. I could sort of recall her telling me something that involved her "ultimate bias group" (whatever that meant) visiting the city. Since she likes to go off and daydream about the very slim chance of bumping into them, I sort of tuned her out.

Instead, I focused on the fact that my music composition class has been taking a toll on me. Since the day I admitted to Amethyst that I was starting to lean more towards Kpop, she took every opportunity to "bless my ears with the heavenly sound of her biases”.

While I found amusement in her efforts for the past couple of weeks, I only really felt a pull towards GOT7’s Choi Youngjae’s voice. There was something about it that spoke to me and, unknowingly, all my compositions were starting to become extremely…….selective.

Before, anybody was able to sing my songs. Each was written in a way that helped showcase and improve the talent of the singer. I would love to get requests from my professors to write the final song for their students’ performances. It was a great experience being requested and I felt so proud every time the singer nailed the difficult pitches. It let me learn more about composing towards a singer's particular style while still keeping true to my own.

Now, no matter who sang the songs, I felt that they were not able to really bring out the true feeling I was trying to portray. It did not matter if it was the shining star of the department or the underdog who shone on test day. Each time I heard my sings being sung, I would drift away into a daydream and think of his voice singing it. Sure, I never told any of the professors because I really wanted to keep that grade, but I just could not praise the vocals with all of my heart like I used to. There was always a small part of me that would focus on that daydream I knew would never happen.

Shaking my head to clear it of those thoughts, I turned my attention back to my phone.

Seeing the amount of received messages told me that was clearly a bad idea. Heaving a great sigh and mentally preparing myself for the overuse of capitals, I opened the conversation box and scrolled all the way up to the last message we sent each other the night before.

---

9:55 am: OMG! ______! I can't believe it!! Text me back as soon as you can!!!

(By the looks of it, she called three times around here)

9:59 am: GIRL! PICK. UP! THIS IS URGENT!!

10:00 am: Fine…you must have already turned the ringer off. Duh! Can't believe I forgot you had a 10 o'clock class. 😅😅

10:01 am: ttyl~😚

10:02 am: Forget it! Still NEED to spazz over this!

10:03 am: GOT7 IS HERE! I REPEAT GOT7 IS AT OUR CAMPUS!

(Two more call attempts)

10:07 am: I JUST got out of class and received the message on Twitter!😄 You see, BamBam sent out a tweet saying that they were going to visit a university campus while on tour. THEN HE TWEETED A PIC OF THE FRONT OF CAMPUS!! I could not believe it!

10:11 am: SO to confirm if it was true, I checked out all of the other members' social media and they have been posting nonstop about how cool the campus is! They even got RECOGNIZED by some of the professors and students!

10:13 am: I KNOW YOU THINK I WAS GONNA STALK THEM!😠 And you are KINDA right😏 I couldn't help it! I have been dying to meet them since they debuted and you KNOW JB is my bae~😎

10:16 am: Ok, so I am starting at the rec house cause I figured they would head there after the whole Student Union tour. I mean come on. As if 7 fit and good-looking guys aren't gonna want to play a game of basketball.😏

---

At this point, I decided to skip ahead and just speed read because it looked to be about a text every one to three minutes for at least an hour. As much as I love her, I did not want to have a crick in my neck because I read a one woman conversation. There were some places where a missing timestamp was found next to a call attempt. My guess would be that, at some points, she was getting fed up with typing and wanted to just talk about each detail of her 'mission' instead.

I was almost to the last text when the one above it caught my eye. Looking at the timestamp, I noticed it was 2 minutes before my class got out today.

---

11:07 am: While I was trying to walk, tweet, text/call you AND look at each notification, I actually ran into them ON THE WAY TO YOUR CLASS BUILDING! They were looking for the music building, so I told them I knew where it was at and got to walk with them! It was so hard to keep my cool the whole time. Thank the gods I am an acting major!!

11:08 am: We're outside your class right now. So excited!

---

My head shot up and I quickly turned to look back at the door. Although the crowd had died down a little bit, it was still a huge mass of bodies trying to get to freedom.

Hesitating only a second longer, I stood up on the desk and began making my way towards the door while stepping on each desk that paved my path. As I jumped off the last desk, I noticed that a fair amount of my classmates had turned their heads to see who was making all that noise in the room.

Feeling my face start to heat up from embarrassment, I took advantage of their brief break from trying to exit the room and pushed my way to the door.

 Once I was finally free of the lecture hall, I turned to the commotion outside.

The normally empty hallway was filled with students and professors surrounding a group of seven attractive men with Amethyst standing in the center. The knee length peach sundress, gladiator sandals, and light makeup matched with her beach curls hairstyle somehow complemented the outfits of each member perfectly. It was almost like I was looking at a photoshoot.

Although I stray away from her obsession with Korean dramas, I still sat through enough series with her during sleepovers to make the comparison of the scene in the hallway with one you typically see in the school themed episodes.

Laughing inwardly because I know she was trying extremely hard to hold back her excitement, I did my best to keep my expression neutral as I unknowingly approached my musical fate.