#the jedi are paragons

[short-wooloo]

A lot of people seem to have the idea that the point of SW is that Jedi are not automatically good

No

The Jedi are good, full stop, end of discussion

But

Its not that being a Jedi is what makes you good

It's that being good is what makes you a Jedi

To be a Jedi is to choose good, you can't be a Jedi if you're not choosing good, and if you're choosing good you're choosing to be a Jedi

[jin-zixun]

"the acolyte doesn't understand the jedi" lmao maybe you don't understand the jedi

[absolutely-flabbergasted]

The Acolyte discourse I've seen really just boils down to way too many people thinking you can't like a villain protagonist or negative character development

[charlesoberonn]

I see good and evil in Star Wars like how I see good and evil in the real WW2 that inspired the original trilogy.

Were the Allies of WW2 paragons of virtue? Fuck no. They had done plenty of horrendous stuff.

But the Axis and Fascism were evil by design. A genocidal and totalitarian ideology that saw enslavement and mass murder as a virtue. And fighting it is good even if the people and states doing the fighting weren't entirely morally upright themselves.

Same principle applies to the Galaxy Far Far Away. The Jedi and Republic can be corrupt and misguided and hypocritical. But the Sith are pure evil whose goal is enslaving the Galaxy, and opposing them is a righteous act even if the people doing it aren't 100% righteous.

[cosmicmordecai]

“ Why do people hate things being Jedi critical? It’s okay if they’re flawed.”

There’s flawed and then there’s presenting the idea the in universe religious minority who essentially have to fucking do everything as narratively ‘flawed’ bc they don’t appease everybody essentially. Be it Anakin, be it their philosophy, etc and correlate to the idea of how that leads to their fall. Most ‘Jedi critical’ points just assigns a unusual level of onus on them for simply existing. Jedi are human/human-like so we know they’re flawed to a point but when they’re accessory to slavery, accuse them of child taking, or whatever points and ignore context, it’s not being critical. Y’all just wanna slander.

Whats actually annoying is how this fandom & this franchise can look at this religious minority group (composing a lot of PoCs & allusions to other cultures) who get literally persecuted by a politician who created a entire army called Stormtroopers, which is right on the nose for Nazi allegories, and go “lets craft ideas & stories that suggest they’re at fault for really existing & not being perfect paragons of good.” This is the same fandom to say the Sith made some good “points” despite being a part of the problem, ignore the Mandalorian’s weird ass system of government, and find ways to sympathize with characters who participate in murder & genocide because they’re hot (Anakin, Kallus, Maul).

And to top it all off, the story had them killed via mind control to shoot them in the back by people they bonded with for maximum hurt & efficiency after fabricating a war using OTHERS.

[evilminji]

Know what's been haunting me? And my Yandere loving brain?

What if... an SI-OC? Fffffucked UP™?

Like? STRAIGHT up "....Oh No. I have? GRAVELY miscalculated."? Cause? And I'm probably wrong here, or forgetting nuisances, but? Dooku? Left the order and began his Fall? NOT because he disagreed with the vast majority of Jedi philosophy... but?

Because of what the Jedi had BECOME.

Senate attack dogs. Indentured servants. Following NOT the Force or their Orders Mandate, but a mere GOVERMANT. Politicians. Straight into ruin and slaughter no less! It was vile. Corrupt. A perversion and degradation of HIS beloved Jedi Order.

He was proud and filled with grief, isolated. Palpatine chose well.

But! He was ALSO a Master Jedi with DECADES of Mastery under his belt. You do not become that with out clear vision of what you want. Who you ARE. And Dooku? Very CLEARLY planned on winning. Killing Sidious and taking his place. An unfortunate necessity, really. In his Grand Plan™.

Too?

Start over, obviously.

Instead of just leaving and starting a NORMAL Religious Schism, building a temple on Serrano, and publicly calling his old Council members lil bitchs. Slap fighting in the town square, as is traditional. Maybe sending pass aggressive notes back and forth in the hands of increasingly spoiled Padawan, because OUR temple at least FEEDS these POOR WAIFS. Etc etc?

Dude went the SITH route. Of... you know... "kill everybody".

Bit extreme. Just saying.

However! Dooku? Not well! In fact, DEEPLY unhinged and masterfully hiding it! Because he is, in fact, a MASTER jedi! And know how to fucking DO THAT. So that slow creep of Deepyly Crazy? No one sees it. Gives ya time to miss the countdown to Boom, as it were.

Which leads to our dearly beloved SI. She? Is a well meaning IDIOT. She can't help it. It's the Force, man. All that feel good juice, clogging up her brain! Making her? Optimistic! Vaguely perky! Wanting to see the GOOD in people!!!

Disturbing, she knows. But it is what it is.

And MASTER Dooku? Feels? Stern but warm. Stalwart. Like one of those ancient trees or great temples in a quite moment. Old and powerful, not necessarily KIND, but certainly not UNKIND. Just... fussy, you know? Proper. Collected and self contained. Doesn't like messy and dirty and needless noise.

So... what's an itty bitty Crecheling to do? To stop this Respected Master from falling? Well... Yoda seems to think "babies" works? And SHE is Baby...

Better scrub down so I'm EXTRA not "why are all children so... sticky?" and make my self look as presentable as possible. Then? Plan: Stalk the Respected Master Dooku Like A Duckling is a GO~! Yoda finds this INSTANTLY hilarious. Starts feeding her insider information (One of his many, later Great Regrets).

Dooku likes THIS tea. Meditates in THIS garden. Ask him about THIS subject, no one listens to him rant about it, he'll enjoy lecturing you about it for HOURS. She actually learns quite a lot! Man's a good teacher. And SHE? Is a dutiful, polite, thoughtful, shining young paragon example of what he feels the Jedi SHOULD be.

She LISTENS. Unlike his foolish peers. She tries to better herself, day by day, instead of running around screaming and playing in mud. Asks after etiquette from the courts he's traveled too, so she does not offend in the future. Does not react with blind disgust to questions others would deem heretical!

Instead? SHE comes from a JEDI place of approach with compassion and consultation of the Force. What creates the most GOOD? How can we strive for the kindest, most ethical, most equal social possible? What brings the universe the most Light? Where do OUR duties end and the duties of OTHERS begin, and when is it time to call them on their failings, should there be any?

It is? Delightful~ if he were not already committed to his path, he would seriously consider taking her on as a Padawn. Like the Granddaughter he never had. In FACT? He is conflicted. While he does not wish to lose the bright little light he has become so accustomed too? He should probably do what is best for her.

He IS leaving after all. Eventually. Perhaps after Qui-Gon finally knights his own padawn. He can convince the man to come with him. A talk between them has been so very, very long overdue. And the man is like a son to him. Young Obi-Wan is a fine young Jedi. Upstanding and collected, could use a bit of tempering. Outrageous flirt. It would be hilarious.

It's a good plan.... right up until it isn't.

Until the Council's BLINDNESS lead his SON to dying alone. For Sidious little games. And the place in HIS chosen lineage is USURPED by some WHINY SAND COVERED BRAT who can not CONTROL himself! No. NO.

Absolutely Not.

As far as HE is concerned? HIS lineage? Goes him, Qui-gon, Obi-Wan, and then SI-OC. No Sand Brat. Is he spiraling? Oh yes. Has been for a while. But now? NOW someone just kicked out a major support beam. The building is a'shaking. SI-OC is worried. Knows this could make or break his Fall.

Doesn't realize that ship has sailed LONG before she arrived.

Jedi Master's do not Fall over night. It is the slow erosion that kills them. Death by ten thousand cuts. He was already thousands deep. Bleeding and bleeding, beyond her abilities to heal. Yoda could have changed things. He is a Master. But a mere Crecheling? An untrained child? No. She stood no chance.

Does not realize that, as she stands in the heart of the storm. The center of the bear trap. As composed Master Dooku grieves and rages, hair disheveled and robes a mess. No, he can not come to the comm right now. No, he is not taking visitors, thank you. Please, Master Dooku. Please! Drink some tea? Eat? Something. Anything. I beg you.

It is a focal point. An anchor to cling to, in that great Fall. As SI-OC fusses with blankets and music that might help, pressing her small and fragile light against his shields like a comforting weight. As though trying to protect him from the pain. As though ANYTHING could protect him.

Sits with him, in remembrance.

Comes with him, to the funeral.... where stands the sand brat. At HER Master's side. As though enough has not been stolen. How dare he? How dare THEY? To allow this!? Hatred festers. Rage. The mania that Darkness brings. He sees now. Ooooo ho ho, does he now see.

The Order has become Rotten. It cannot be saved. The Jedi have lost their way.

The old must be purged... and they must begin again.

It's all so CLEAR now. So simple. The path forward. Its so obvious now, HE is not leaving, oh no, THEY are leaving. It would be madness to leave a vulnerable Crecheling in such unfettered corruption. Exposed to the nonexistent mercies of Sidious and his ilk. Not to mention, Force knows what filth they'd attempt to stuff in her head behind his back!

Knight Kenobi is an adult. Can comport himself and defend his person. SI-OC can not. She is just a youngling. Should have BARELY been a padawn. But... things have changed.

SI-OC fall asleep, comfortable and certain she is perfectly safe, in MASTER Dooku's apartments. Just another Tea Time and obscure Force Philosophy lecture. Maybe some hands-on etiquette lessons. There are many, MANY different ways to take tea. And... man... the room is so cozy. Always so comfortable and tastefully inviting. Warm an... an snoozy... feelin... *thunk of a small child falling over, dead to the world*

Drugged? Sleep suggestion? Soothing bedtime tea? Yes. Yes, he did. She stood literally negative chances. He scoops up HIS granddaughter and leaves droids to pack the rest. Tucks her under his cloak. No one thinks to even check. Who would? He is trusted. Respected. It is well known how he dotes upon the child. Old age has softened him, some jest.

The dangers of attachment indeed. But it is not HIM who is in danger. It is HER who his attachment endangers. Because he can not let go. WILL NOT. Because it can crossed from caring to obsessive. Possessive. To mine, mine, mine.

Children are not property. Not toys or trophies. Teddy bears to squeeze until your hurt stops. They are living, breathing, entities in their own right. Which is something a JEDI would be able to accept. The SITH? No. No, see, his Great-grandpadawn is HIS. This is HIS family. HIS Jedi order. HIS plan to "fix" everything.

She done fucked up.

She wakes up on a ship to Serrano with COUNT Dooku.

His... his eyes turn Interesting Colors now. Ha ha... she is... staying Very Calm. It is REALLY important to stay VERY calm. No sudden movements. We Do Not startle the Darksider! Eeeeeeverones FRIENDS here! R-Right?

Oh of course. Nothing to be worried about, dear. You're just going to his Manor until the NEW temple is finished. (Neat. Terrifying. So, SO many horrifying parts of that sentence). And SI-OC? Pulls the good ol "never argue with the crazy person with a gun" technique. Smile and Nod! Mmmmhmmm! G-great! Can't wait!

(Oh god, help me)

War breaks out. She's on THE Separatist planet. But not? Before crazy grandpa? Has hired bounty hunters to find him force sensitive kids. You know, for the NEW Jedi order. Because we're all pretending here. Smile and nod, fellow hostages. For the love of the Force, smile and nod.

She's not entirely even certain half these children were from families that WANTED to give them up. It makes her sick to think about.

She still has to have Tea Time. Because she, a child, is the HEAD of the New Order. And he has decades of Jedi knowledge to impart. Also? Lonely and fixating. We're a happy family. Because I say so and have hostages. That's why you love you, don't you dear? *SI-OC with a wide, terrified hostage smile* mmmmhmm!

The Jedi? Have figured out what happened. Crecheling mysteriously disappeared at the same time a Count Dooku? They originally thought she tried to follow him. Got lost or grabbed by slavers. But now... NOW? Oh Force they know they horrifying truth. The Darksider stole a CHILD.

Everyone remembers SI-OC. She was the sweet little duckling. Well behaved and polite. A kind child. Worried for Count Dooku. And now look at what's happened?! The CIS is trotting out the "head" or their "new order" and it's their lost Crecheling. Now a teenager. Terror in her eyes and a fixed jedi smile.

The Creche Masters have to be physically dragged away from stealth ships. (They're just going to talk! They're jUST GOING TO TAL-!!!) Plo Koon is fucking HELPING and that's NOT helpful! No, your commander do NOT have "a point"! You can not do just a "little bit" of murder as "a treat"!

A certain Quinlan Vos? Never heard of him, of course, rocks up to this New Order with a smoothie. Has betrayed the OLD order and the Republic. Definitely for realisies and not because he's here to spy! Heeeeey, kiddo. How you holding up?

Answer? Oh THANK GOD, AN ADULT JEDI! Halp! Followed by gross sobbing. So... you know... not GREAT. Wouldn't recommend it.

But! The INTEL. Sweet holy shit, kid. Chips. Palpatine. Dooku behind the Clones. Everything ELSE she's quietly been noting down. Uuuuh, yeah. Yeah that WILL be... real useful.... Holy shit. No, seriously, give him a second. Just like that? Huh. Didn't even have to convince you. Wow. Okay.

Well then! Let's fuck over some Sith!

How the Shadows go about it? Probably very action movie and nail biting. High octane. Sweet big budget cgi effects. They get the De-chipped clones involved. Fox gets to finally, FINALLY shoot his boss. Never a happier man. He deserves it.

But that's not important. What IS? Is Quinlan Vos? Showing up to the Temple, with a burger and smelling strongly of smoke, and like.... over 450 force sensitive younglings, teenage and below. And probably a litter of tookas. Because what? Were they supposed to LEAVE them?

She takes One(1) step into the temple and gets hit with like? Three generations of Guilt Complexes. Man Pain. Yoda, Obi-Wan, AND Anikin? Mother FUCKER, you were 9! What were you supposed to DO? Bite him?! You literally JUST GOT HERE. *SI-OC has used Logic against Skywalker Guilt... it is not very effective!*

When? When will she be freeeeeeee? Cannon Yoda had the right idea.

She should go hide in a fucking SWAMP.

@babbling-babull @legitimatesatanspawn @spidori @lolottes @hypewinter @mayfay @hdgnj

[salt-mines]

One day we shall break free of the "Qui-Gon Was the Only Jedi to Ever Jedi" chains that has a hold on this fandom.

He was a good Jedi! And I liked the guy! His flaws, like everyone else's, make him an interesting character, too.

But 'paragon of what the Jedi should be'? My friends, take it down a notch.

Each Jedi we see on screen and read about in books and comics has something unique to offer to our whole understanding of what the Jedi are and can be! Embrace the rich tapestry of ideals and personalities.

No one man is THE JEDI.

Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

[blackkatmagic]

Always funny to me when Mandalorians go "The Darksaber is Our Special Mandalorian relic" to a jedi cause like:

- it's a lightsaber, a jedi lightsaber

- Tarre internationally had it left in the temple and they stole it

- the mental gymnastics needed to ignore that Tarre was also a jedi

Come on guys. Also Jaster you're the history nerd you should know enough to have Some shame.

I wonder how long he was geeking out to Myles about A'den after that encounter

While I very much do believe that the Jedi have the only real claim to the Darksaber, given that Tarre left it to them (and also, if you want to take a more recent view of things, Mace technically defeated Jango who defeated Tor and therefor the rightful Mand'alor is Mace Windu, but that's a whole separate rant), I think it's technically understandable, given Mandalorian culture, for them to believe that the Darksaber is theirs.

It's something that's going to come up in more detail in future chapters, but like. The Darksaber is fairly meaningful to them as a people, and Tarre clearly was as well, so it's not weird for them, especially coming from a culture that's built on a foundation of conquest and absorption of other peoples, to just...assume that their claim over the Darksaber usurps the Jedi's.

Also, re: the "Jaster should know better" part, I feel like fandom as a whole greatly underestimates his ruthlessness, and sort of...stamps their own version of "honorable" over him, if that makes sense? Like, the honor code that Jaster based his reforms on was from the Crusades. It's not exactly the Geneva convention, even if it is a step up from the complete lawlessness the Mandalorians had before him. It was also mainly to keep Mandalorians from fighting each other when hired by opposite sides in a conflict, and much less about what a non-Mandalorian would have considered honorable.

This isn't meant as criticism, to be clear! It's just me being salty in general about how fandom makes Jaster so much less interesting because they want him to be some sort of paragon of virtue, when he's basically a mercenary king and a literal cold-blooded murderer who uses child soldiers when he thinks it would benefit him. The dude is fascinating, but he's not automatically going to respect the Jedi's claim to a meaningful historical artifact just because. He's a product of his culture, just as much as Feemor is a product of his.

[bookatans]

After reading Dooku: Jedi Lost it's so hard not to get stuck on how his closest mentors happened to be on the opposite side of a very complex spectrum and how that has just as much to do with the way Dooku's opinions of both the Jedi and the Republic were formed as much as his years of messaging Jenza.

On one hand, you have Yoda, who we all know. "Wise and inscrutable," as Sifo-Dyas put it. Yoda is the picture of what a Jedi is supposed to aspire to be. He is the be all, end all of Jedi-hood. Under Yoda's teaching, Dooku was placed in a position where he forced himself to be the best — already an issue he faced before becoming a padawan.

On the other, you have Lene Kostana. From the first time meet her in the audiobook, they tell you that Lene Kostana is someone that the Jedi Council scrutinize and don't take seriously. Her interests in Sith history are seen as irrelevant more than they seem dangerous. Everyone is blind to the idea that the Sith could make a return, while she's preparing herself for a potential – and, to her, ineviteable – ressurection of the Sith.

In a perfect world, these two opposing forces would create a balance where Dooku might be able to learn from two teachers whose ideals might clash, but could ultimately be interwoven to form something coherent.

But this isn't a perfect world. From the very beginning, Dooku already has conflicts of interest, and they only add on over time. He's in contact with Jenza – a sister a Jedi is not supposed to have–, he struggles with an attachment to Sifo-Dyas, he has a tendency to let his emotions get the better of him.

Of course, all padawans have struggles that they have to face, but Dooku's are exacerbated by a couple of facts: Yoda is an absent Master when his responsibilities to the Council override his teaching, and Lene – who Dooku already knows is different, who Dooku originally wanted as his Master! – is the one who continues to mentor him when that happens.

Lene Kostana is not a perfect master. Of course, neither is Yoda, but Lene makes her deviation from the typical Jedi known and doesn't shy away from it. She's unapologetic in her search for Sith history, and while Dooku might find that fascinating, we as the readers can see where the faults lay, where that obsession begins to override everything and begin that rift in Dooku's faith and trust in the Jedi.

They suffer a traumatizing experience that unquestionably affects Dooku and makes Sifo-Dyas' visions worse, and what does Lene do? She asks Dooku to keep this a secret from the Council, because the Council already wants her to stop what she's doing. Then, when Sifo's visions do continue to get worse, she asks Dooku to hide it and places in him the fear that the Jedi will do something terrible to Sifo-Dyas, like institutionalize him. Lene tells him over and over again that the Jedi Council is not perfect either– tells him to be weary of them, that they''re afraid.

In contrast, when a situation comes up where the Council do find out about something else that's against the Code within the Jedi, Yoda tells Dooku that they would've helped had they been trusted and known, but Dooku doesn't believe him. He's even shocked and disillusioned by the Jedi taking legal matters into their own hands.

This isn't to say Lene's influence or Yoda's paragon status shaped Dooku into what he became. Everyone had a hand in that, Dooku himself most of all. Circumstances fell into place to create that path. Ultimately, it was Dooku's own hubris that became his downfall.

But, shit, having those two wildly different people to guide him sure as hell didn't make it any better.

[raleighrador]

Anakin and Obi-Wan loved an idea of each other but never knew each other.

I read their relationship - and what a happy ending AU looks like - very differently to many.

People who ship them or believe Obi-Wan would be a cool uncle to the twins I think miss the point that the Team is a lie and the love was always misplaced. Obi-Wan never knew Anakin, not the bits of that mattered. He perhaps knew they existed - his love, his desire for family, his passion, his anger, his fear - but he never understood them. He was incapable of understanding them. Anakin never knew Obi-Wan, not the bits that made him a real person. Obi-Wan was an idol, an impossible paragon, that Anakin desperately sought to live up and violently resented. They loved their own ideas of the other, not the reality of who they were. Anakin's marriage and children would be a fundamental rupture of Obi-Wan's idea of him. Obi-Wan's reaction to the revelation would shatter Anakin's image of him.

I don't think either's love for the other survives that. Obi-Wan I think would be bitter and heart broken. Turns out Anakin isn't a far better Jedi than he was. Turns out Anakin has been lying to him for as long as it matters. Turns out Obi-Wan failed Qui-Gon, failed the Council, failed Anakin (not as badly, clearly, as in canon, but he still failed). I think he probably repudiates Anakin - and finally confirms in Anakin's mind that he was never worthy of Obi-Wan's love and he is now never getting it (which Obi-Wan is incapable of giving anyway). It confirms to Anakin that Obi-Wan respected the lie, might one day have loved the lie, but he never respected Anakin, he would never love Anakin.

Even if he doesn't - even if he does the common happy AU thing of (in a massively out of character way) decide he cares more about Anakin than the Jedi, that he is onboard with Anakin's marriage & kids etc - I think it is instead Anakin who rejects him.

Because an Obi-Wan who turns his back on the Jedi, who gives so freely everything Anakin has been desperate for, isn't the Obi-Wan Anakin loves.

Anakin wants something impossible - to be the Jedi he thinks Obi-Wan wants him to be, and in so doing "earn" the love and affection of The Perfect Jedi TM (who by definition shouldn't give it).

Getting that love AFTER having so obviously let down Obi-Wan would I think i) force Anakin to realise Obi-Wan isn't the impossible paragon he believed in and ii) bring up impossible to answer questions of "why now?".

At best they maintain a deeply toxic and resentful co-dependency.

I think more likely is Obi-Wan has his heart broken but maintains his self discipline and spends the rest of his life an empty shell of a human who happens to be the text book perfect Jedi. Anakin also has his heart broken but has a wife and children (and an extended family) and gets to see and experience love again - and learns that Obi-Wan was never going to give it to him.

[stephanythedramaqueen]

Hi! I love your Osha and Qimir posts sm! I am obsessed with them and really hope the show gets a S2. 😭

Sorry if this dumb a question, but why is Qimir so desperate for a pupil? I’m rewatching the season and the way he says that line to Sol just sounds so angry and frustrated.

Is it just because he’s lonely or because he’s following darth plagueis orders?

Hi! I’m obsessed with oshamir too, dw. The brainrot set in deep!

Okay so the simple answer here is that Qimir wants the Power of Two. And he was angry in that scene not bc he was super frustrated about not having one, but more likely bc he invested all that time and energy training Mae, which might have been years for all we know, and she ended up betraying him and thus ending her apprenticeship under him. That’s years and time and energy wasted. I would be angry too.

Going into depth about this, in Sith theology the Rule of Two is one who holds the power and one who craves it. A master and a pupil. A teacher and student. A paragon and acolyte. It’s a very power grabbing impersonal dysfunctional power dynamic.

However, I find it very important that the wording here in the show should be taken into account. Qimir doesn’t want the Rule of Two, which is what the Sith crave. What Qimir wants is the Power of Two. And the way the Power of Two is described in this show in particular sounds more like a Force Dyad, before this term was invented. The Rule of Two has always been about power imbalance. The master who holds all the power and the pupil who wants it. But the way the season ended between Osha and Qimir is that they’re equals. As per Leslye Headland’s own account:

Mind you, the Rule of Two never affords any equality whatsoever.

The witch coven describes the Power of One, the Power of Two, the Power of Many, a connection between each other through the Thread (aka The Force) which makes them stronger too. Now it’s interesting that the Jedi would call their power of the dark side. The same way Qimir is. But not all Darksiders are Sith, the way he never technically identifies as a Sith. The way its described, this unique bond through the Force/Thread is more aligned with a Force Dyad. And if we’ve seen anything what Rey and Ben over there has shown in the movies, it’s a strength and bond capable of great feats. And that is what Qimir wants. The strength, the power, the capability of greatness with another through the Force, so he could have the freedom to exercise his Force the way he wants without restriction from the Jedi or the Sith. And in order to get that, he would’ve needed someone who knows his craft and has the strength in the Force the way he does; someone who needs to learn this.

Now is Qimir lonely and suffering? Yes. Does he recognize this pain and despair in Osha? Yes. Is he eager in his connection for someone to understand him the way he understands her, like no one else ever would? Also yes. Did Darth Plaguis sent him to do it? Unclear. Unlike what the internet has been spreading as per yesterday, it is not confirmed that Plaguis is Qimir’s master. Leslye Headland, the showrunner, has been vague about Plaguis role in this. In one interview she seems to imply Qimir doesn’t know Plaguis is there at all and Plaguis is just spying on them. In another, there’s a hint that there’s more going on between Plaguis and Qimir.

Either way, that’s an answer that can only be answered in season 2. Leslye isn’t so foolish as to spoil that.

[lawchan89]

I just, I hate when people think Callum is supposed to represent the paragon of virtue and justice in the TDP universe.

He’s not.

He’s just as messed up as any other character.

Nowhere on the show did it ever say or imply that “morally upright” is what Callum was supposed to be. He’s just another dude.

He’s just regular Callum.

Let him be regular Callum and stop putting him on a pedestal like a Disney princess or a Jedi or whatever the hell it is you people like to idolize these days.

[jedi-enthusiast]

Here's another post repeating something I've said in the Jedi Appreciation server, since apparently I have my best thoughts whenever I'm being a salty little shit about people being anti-Jedi, but-

----------

The funny thing is, people are so obsessed with the idea of "grey Jedi" partly because they want their favs/ocs to care about people--and apparently "Jedi are heartless and not allowed to love anyone or feel empathy blah blah blah" (which isn't even true btw).

But also because the popular thing now is morally grey heros/villains/love interests/characters/etc. and everyone wants to be able to make their favorite characters/ocs/whatever make those morally grey decisions or do morally grey things, so they can be "badass" or what have you.

...but when the Jedi actually make morally grey decisions in canon because they've literally been backed so far into a corner that they have no other choice and the only options they have are either bad or worse....suddenly the Jedi are "evil" and "deserved what they got" because they weren't all-powerful omniscient paragons of perfection.

The hypocrisy is astounding ngl

[inquisitor-apologist]

You know, Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker are actually incredibly similar, when you think about it.

Mace:

Was one of the most powerful force sensitives of his era (Shatterpoints are just. Insanely op and he was a very strong Force user in general)

Was one of the most committed and best Jedi of his era (youngest ever Master on the Council, literal Master of the Council, and the champion of the Order)

Led the Jedi in a terrifying civil war against the Sith, often on the front lines, and was an extremely competent fighter and general

Extrajudicially faced down the most powerful Sith of all time once he realized who Sidious was, attempting to save democracy, the Republic, the Jedi, and countless lives

Luke:

Was one of the most powerful force sensitives of his era (grandson of the Force itself)

Was one of the most committed and best Jedi of his era (managed to commit himself to the Jedi at 19, revitalized & led the Jedi)

Led the Rebellion in a terrifying civil war against the Sith, often on the front lines, and was an extremely competent pilot and commander

Extrajudicially faced down the most powerful Sith of all time once he had the chance to face Sidious, attempting to save democracy, the Rebellion, the Jedi, and countless lives

The only major difference in how they faced Sidious (that wasn’t because of the different times & context) was that Mace managed to defeat Sidious and was betrayed by Vader at the last moment, while Luke couldn’t defeat Sidious on his own and was saved by Vader at the last moment.

And yet one is seen as the paragon of everything the Order should be, and the other is hated and seen as the worst of the Jedi. I wonder why

[micah-of-the-psychos]

Since y'all love taking George Lucas's word as gospel so much, then you obviously know and agree with the Republic being analogous to the American government. The prequel era, and particularly the Clone Wars, are also supposed to be an analogy for the War on Terror. The American government during this era of our history is well known for being extremely corrupt, especially when it was found out that the invasion of Iraq was carried out based on a lie. The Republic during the Clone Wars is supposed to be viewed as heavily corrupt, and by extension as the institution that carries out their corrupt will, so are the Jedi. The Clone Army in this case represents the American soldiers dragged into this lie, the young and dumb teenagers recruited out of high school, and the people caught up in the sweep of patriotic propaganda. The Jedi don't exactly have one singular thing in our world that they are directly analogous to — although the CIA is a close contender, in my opinion — but they essentially represent the leadership that did know better, that should've known better, and yet still carried out the will of the government, too dumb to understand that what the government wants and what is fundamentally right are not the same thing.

With all that being said, the Jedi being shining paragons fundamentally falls apart if you're so keen on taking George Lucas's word on everything. They were not perfect, and they fucked up horribly, and they chose to serve the government of the Republic rather than the people of the Republic, which led to their ultimate downfall.

[grifonecoronato]

The Guardians of Peace and Justice

(spoilers for The Acolyte)

In A New Hope, Obi-Wan describes the Jedi as the "guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic"...

...okay, but what does that mean, exactly? On its surface, Star Wars positions the Jedi as agents of pure goodness (at least if we're to take Obi-Wan's description at face value).

But The Acolyte asks us to wrestle with that question on a practical, everyday level for the galaxy's citizens. After all, a religious order whose charge is to be "guardians of peace and justice", coupled with the fact that its members are armed, implies that militarisation is part of their mandate.

Faith-based police, in other words.

Orthodox Star Wars fans seem to hate this portrayal of the Jedi as cops; Jedi in The Acolyte tend to throw their weight around the citizens of the galaxy, routinely using intimidation to get what they want, and when they make mistakes they have an institution that provides them with cover and support.

With all these traits in mind, The Acolyte positions the Jedi not as agents of pure goodness, but as imperfect members of an institution that prioritises its own protection at least as much as its duty to the Republic's citizens.

So... not just faith-based police, but corrupt faith-based police!

But if you look at the story George Lucas told in the prequels, the Jedi's portrayal in The Acolyte keeps faith with how they were portrayed, and what they will eventually become.

Jedi as Superheroes

So if not cops, how do orthodox Star Wars fans want the Jedi portrayed?

I've been watching Star Wars since the 80s, and to my surprise, the Jedi we've seen in the (canon) movies, and TV shows have surprisingly few scenes with everyday citizens. Usually, the Jedi in these stories are involved in larger-than-life struggles, like blowing up the Death Star, commanding Clone Troopers, or talking in the Jedi Council chambers about politics and Force stuff.

When Jedi do encounter citizens, they are positioned as superhero archetypes: they hear a call for help from beleaguered citizens, rush in to resolve the dispute -- usually through talk and diplomacy, but also with violence and lightsabers -- and then fly off into hyperspace.

Two recent examples come from Tales of the Jedi and Jedi Survivor, both of which feature Jedi acting on their own volition in places where there is no formalised local security.

In the Tales of the Jedi episode "Justice", Count Dooku and Qui-Gon Jinn defend villagers who are holding a Senator's son hostage, and act against the tyrannical Senator who's starving the villagers. Toward the climax of the episode, Dooku reveals that he never informed the Senate that he was undertaking this rescue operation, and thus he and Qui-Gon Jinn were acting without oversight (which is not something Jedi are supposed to do, especially if they're trying to rescue a Senator's son!).

In Jedi Survivor, Cal Kestis saves a villager from being killed by the Bedlam Raiders. This story takes place during the Reign of the Empire era, when the Jedi are almost all dead, so Cal is taking decisions without Senate oversight.

In essence, Dooku, Jinn, and Kestis are free to act as superheroes because no one else is able to do anything. By acting, these Jedi "restore peace and justice".

The Jedi's Hubris

The Original Trilogy portrays three Jedi: Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke, and each is a paragon of goodness. Well... Obi-Wan deliberately misleads Luke about his father, and both Yoda and Obi-Wan conceal Leia's true parentage and her relationship to Luke...

... small potatoes stuff.

But when the Prequel Trilogy came out, the Jedi were portrayed very differently. These Jedi:

...attempted to defraud a merchant of his livelihood...

... cheated at games of chance...

... and were happy to risk the life of a child on a dangerous race.

But it was for the greater good, right? There were more pressing concerns at play than one junk trader's livelihood, and besides the kid was Force-sensitive, so he'd be fine in a high-octane contest.

The prequel Jedi had good intentions, after all.

But that's exactly the kind of permissiveness that led to the Jedi's downfall. And it is this attitude that The Acolyte showcases the most in its Jedi characters.

In episode 1, "Lost/Found", Jedi Knight Yord Fandar boards a Trade Federation ship to find, question, and arrest Osha. He comes aboard without permission, and when the captain doesn't immediately give him the answers he seeks, Yord outstretches his hand as if to use the Force against him.

The captain and first mate are terrified, and immediately reveal what Yord wants to know.

In episode 3, "Destiny", the Jedi tresspass into the witches' compound, in order to rescue the children they believe are being mistreated.

The scene is very tense, with the witches being very apprehensive of these Jedi and their intentions.

These actions, and many more, were taken because the Jedi had "noble intentions", as Sol puts it. And if the intentions are what matters most, the way they fulfil those intentions are of secondary concern.

Because the Jedi cannot be perceived as having done wrong, less their political enemies use that to undermine them.

That's hubris. And that was George Lucas' intent, which Leslye Headland fulfilled to a tee.

Because Headland absolutely knows her stuff when it comes to Star Wars.

The Jedi's overarching story says that the Order was destroyed because of their own hubris. Darth Sidious was just an instigator, and he only had to topple a few dominoes, which the Jedi Order had already set up by themselves.

But at the same time, we can't accept the overarching story that the Jedi fell from hubris, and then get upset when the Jedi are portrayed as acting hubristically.

The Jedi on The Acolyte had good intentions but they acted badly. That's the whole point: to sow the story seeds for what comes later.

In short, The Acolyte nailed it.