#the gods are the true final bosses of rwby

[anthurak]

Okay, so the sheer SYMBOLISM of Ruby/WBY vs. the Curious Cat.

First Ruby awakens with an utterly MASSIVE blast of silver light, the power we KNOW came from the Gods.

Then Ruby, who holds power from the Gods, battles the Curious Cat, first creation of the Gods.

Then finally, all four of Ruby, Weiss, Blake and Yang battle the Cat and DEFEAT them.

Ruby Rose, holder of power of the Gods, and her team, do battle with the first creation of the gods and defeat them.

Combined with what we see later in the vision provided by the Blacksmith, I think this is SUPER setting up Team RWBY vs. The Gods.

[anthurak]

There's also the fact that they kinda sorta represent THE ultimate existential threat to rwby humanity at the moment. What with the whole 'if we come back and you're not ALL united in a way we like, we're wiping all of you out AGAIN' thing.

Divine or not, they are Dicks

I really hate the "Well they're gods" defense for the brothers genociding all of humanity because a couple of hundred rebelled. Its usually paired with stuff like "When I smash a mosquito for biting me, I'm not oppressing it" and I have many reasons to dislike it.

But even approaching the argument on its own terms I don't feel it holds up. Because the whole "Well they're gods" angle really doesn't work any better than people insisting that the Maidens have to have seasonal powers does.

Which is to say it does not work at all.

The Maidens don't actually embody the seasons, they just got gifted four chunks of powerful elemental magic.

The brothers aren't actually manifestations, embodiments or the inherent arbiters of creation and destruction, knowledge or choice the way Zeus is for storms and hospitality.

These are just magics they have a lot of power over and not even in specific domains split between them, they are literal twins, its just personal preference and their aesthetic.

I also find it weird people keep trying to latch onto the "Well they're gods we can't expect them to act like people or hold human morality" and then act like Salem is 100% human and also bereft of any other motives beyond petty selfishness and spite.

Ya know, despite her being ancient to an outright eldrich degree, functionally immortal, very blatantly no longer human when you explode her chest and find only black goo. Let alone that she is in possession of powerful supernatural abilities no one else has.

Hell, she actually was apparently imbued with destructive desires!

So by the logic of "They're gods, its their nature" its actually harder to blame Salem for her actions when she is canonically confirmed to be imbued with an inherently destructive impulse by her new nature.

The same cannot be said for the Brothers where its all just speculation.

[bestworstcase]

So I know that "GoL=final boss" is a predominant theory around this corner of the fandom. But admittedly I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around them actually fighting one of the Brothers, especially considering that the last time they tried to fight the Brothers head on, GoD wiped the entire army (and the rest of humanity) in a single blast. And assuming Salem's main goal from the onset is to kill the God of Light, how is she (and RWBY for that matter) meant to go about it?

oh, good, this is something i've been meaning to talk about

because as the fandom has begun to, um, notice that the god of light is not actually the benevolent adjudicator he pretends to be, the idea that the god of light (or the brothers) might be the "final boss" is circulating around more and i keep seeing this sort of objection raised by specifically the handful of other serious analytical types:

"maybe, but the story is built on the conflict between ozma and salem, and the gods are not very interesting, and they're too powerful to fight, so probably not."

and i find this rather baffling because all of this seems very obvious to me, but on the other hand, the sentiment is self-explanatory in a way. i have never seen somebody who thinks this express the idea without including some variant of "i find the brothers a little boring" and what this tells me is that they only consider the gods in relation to salem and ozma's backstory, thinking about them as little more than plot devices used to set up salem and ozma as the main villain and her adversary.

but i don't think that's what the gods are in this story—otherwise there would have been no need for the kids to learn about where the brothers came from before they made remnant. the brothers matter because the conflict between salem and ozma is religious in nature. the plot of rwby is a religious war.

maybe this only seems obvious to me because i think religion in fantasy is interesting in general and i read a lot of epics and folk stories. i don't know. the important thing is that the brothers are gods.

not "all-powerful characters who serve as occasional plot devices but are otherwise distant from the narrative," which is what most people in fandom tend to mean when they say "god." the brothers are gods, beings regarded as divine and worshipped by some of the characters.

divinity is a social construct.

i find the brothers to be interesting characters in their own right, but as gods their function in the narrative, along with the god of animals (who isn't real!) and the blacksmith, is to embody the religious beliefs and ideological stances that define the conflict between salem and ozma. as gods, these characters are expressions of what the important characters believe in.

this is the idea the god of light represents: "humans are pitiable shells of what they once were and need the brothers to make them whole again, but first they need to repent and cleanse themselves of what salem did. if they don't, they deserve annihilation."

this is the idea the god of darkness represents: "creations should not be condemned for the mistakes of their creators, and the god of light's rules benefit no one but himself."

this is the idea the god of animals represents: "humans are remarkable, but it's important to keep an open mind, accept change, embrace diversity, and be true to yourself; otherwise, you will become small-minded, afraid, and hateful, and that will make you cruel."

and this is the idea the blacksmith represents: "balance is not two forces locked in never-ending conflict, but a living breathing thing that grows and changes organically. it can't be created, or restored by force or calculation; it can only be found."

one of these is not like the others.

ozma is dedicated to his mandate, given to him by the god of light, and because the huntsmen academies are a religious institution whose guiding purpose is to safeguard the divine relics until such time as humanity is "united," the main cast of huntresses and huntsmen and their allies are all ultimately serving the god of light.

in the ever after, RWBYJ meet the blacksmith, who tells them a story about the brothers and shares her philosophical beliefs with them. they discover a new perspective.

salem rejected ozma's mandate at once, by quoting a myth about the god of animals ("descendants [of those humans who rejected the change and freedom offered to them by the god of animals] resent [faunus] because we remind them of what they are not and what they never can be" / "why redeem these humans [on behalf of the brothers] when we can replace them [the brothers] with what they could never be?")—after quite literally millions of years believing that humanity can, and should, overthrow the divine order.

so the central narrative conflict is between salem and ozma, but what that conflict is about is whether the god of light's view of humankind is correct. ozma either believes that it is or believes that resisting him is futile; salem believes that the god of light is both wrong and possible to defeat, or at least ignore.

(i think there is a not-insignificant possibility that her Plan A is to destroy the relics, making it impossible to ever invite the brothers back to remnant, but that the presence of the spirits inside the relics will prohibit that. "none of that matters anymore!" and all.)

and, in the most recent volume, we learned that the god of light is a very broken character who has lost his way and desperately needs to heal. the god of darkness probably does not exist anymore (i am almost certain he returned to the tree and ascended), so light has no one to guide him back home. he is also not immortal, just ageless.

here is what the narrative is setting up:

salem is going to win—and her victory is also the god of light's defeat, because she wins by persuading ozma, and everyone else, to join her in rejecting the genocidal ideology underpinning the divine mandate and thus refusing the mandate itself. the only way to win is not to play. she herself will have to change first, by relinquishing her many layers of emotional armor and allowing herself to be vulnerable and honest again, and her opponents will also have to change how they see her, as a real person instead of a fairytale monster. this is the core narrative arc.

then, they will need to make a decision regarding the god of light. the relics can be scattered or destroyed to prevent the day of judgment from ever coming to pass, or they can try to send the god of light back home to the tree. the former is safer, perhaps, but… rwby is a story about trying to save everyone. "sometimes it's worth it all to risk it all and fight for every life." right? confronting the god of light will not even be an option until everyone is on the same page about refusing the mandate, and by that point the conflict is over. they could simply get rid of the relics and carry on with their lives and never think about the god of light again. the only reason to summon him is for his sake.

will any of them want to help him? no.

is it the right thing to do? yes.

i think dealing with him will turn out to be very simple, because the god of darkness is gone and the god of light said that both he and his brother would return to judge humanity. by his own word, he does not have the right to judge humanity alone—and while he may bend his rules, he will not break them. if he returns to find humans and faunus united in opposition to him with salem, he returns to a world that does not belong to him or have any need of him and falls into a trap of his own making.

this will be enough to give him pause. they can try to talk him down, but given that he embodies the fear of change i think they will fail and he will lash out—not with magic, though. what did light do to jabber and to salem to punish them? he lunged and bit or slashed them with his claws.

beware the jabberwock, my son! the jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

<- in the poem 'jabberwocky,' the boy searches for the jabberwock a "long time," then stops to rest under the tumtum tree. there, the jabberwock finds him—and he rather unceremoniously cuts off its head:

one, two! one, two! and through and through the vorpal blade went snicker-snack he left it dead, and with its head he went galumphing back.

(incidently, the jabberwalker is not the jabberwock—he's jabberwocky, the poem, and also a bandersnatch.)

anyway, i think light is going to lose his temper and lunge at salem, and someone (probably ruby) will chop off his head with the sword of destruction when he does. then a smaller, more vulnerable part of him will be exposed (think the curious cat after team rwby slay the "furious" form) and they will talk to him again and send him home.

the fights against cordovin in V6 and the cat in V9 directly foreshadow the shape of this confrontation with the god of light. there is no victory in strength: they won't overpower him, he will resort to violence and that will be his undoing. (remember how ruby cut off tyrian's tail after tyrian reached past her to sting her uncle? yeah.) and then, with his power broken, he'll have a choice to change or not change.

[cosmicqueen10]

HONORABLE MENTIONS OF 2022!

This is just MY personal opinion/interests in anime last year. Whether it's an original anime, a new season, a movie, an OVA, etc.

I enjoyed everything in this list.

In no actual ranking.

AND SPOILERS FOR ALL STUFF DOWN BELOW.

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⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️⬇️

Moriarty the Patriot

Code Geass but the two main bois live and are together in the end; BFFS for life! ❤️ 💖

Sasaki and Miyano

Slow burn hook up that has ✨️and 🌈 everywhere as is the OVA and I hope the movie gives us more 💋 😘 😗 😚 😙 ~!!!

RWBY Ice Queendom

The anime we finally got. Weiss supremacy and yes she's my favorite 😍~! Idk about a S2 though ...

Cyberpunk Edgerunners

Binged this. All but one is left standing. So much blood. So much death. It's brutal. And depressing. The lone girl on the 🌙 🌚 🌔 🌕 🌖 🌛.

BNHA World Heroes Mission

I really like Rody and hope we see him more. Also got to see the OVA. So many OVAS my God ... overall visuals and action were good, villain was meh though.

Fruits Basket Prelude

Just as emotionally wrecking as the show. Too much for me!!!!!!😭😭😭😭🤧🤧🤧🤧❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹❤️‍🩹

My Dress Up Darling

Too good to be true perfect waifu! 🥰 Typical fan service, typical romantic awkward antics, typical slow 🔥 ... still watch S2 though.

I'm the Villaness so I'll Tame the Final Boss

Cute as heck show. Really enjoyed it, surprised by how many characters where in it and had three acts in just 12 episodes and it all worked out in the end. Aileen x Claude, a new anime couple I can get behind! 💖 💗

Obey Me S2

I haven't fully seen it. Seen some of it. I ain't a huge fan though. I like it but not head over heels for it.

Gonna do a dishonorable one next. Until then later!

🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗

[bumblebyisendgame]

Volume 7 once again validates my theory that Salem isn’t the true endgame by suggesting everyone will be uniting relatively soon to defeat her

[adhdgays]

[Image Description: Collage titled "Sun Wukong Sunday 2024" containing media depicting Sun Wukong. Media includes:

2008 Olympics Monkey Movie, 21st Century Journey to the West, 300 Heroes, Ace of Arenas, Adventures from China: Monkey King, AFK Arena, Age of Mythology, American Born Chinese, Animal Crossing: New Horizons, Arena of Valor, Awesomenauts, Black Myth: Wukong, Blades of Brim, Bloons Monkey City, Cards, the Universe and Everything, Cloud Master, Dark Matter Particle Explorer, DC “Monkey Prince” and “Monkey King,” Destiny of Thrones, Diablo III, Digimon, Dislyte, DotA 2, Dragon Ball, Dragon Power, Dungeon Boss, Dungeon Hunter Champions, Empire Warriors: Tower Defense, Enslaved: Odyssey to the West, Ether Saga Odyssey, Evertale, Fate/Grand Order, Final Fantasy “Zidane,” Final Fantasy XIV, Fire Ball (2005), For Honor, Fortnite, Free Fire, Genshin Impact, Girl Giant and the Monkey King, God Game, GO Titans, Heroes Arena, Heroes Evolved, Heroes of Newerth, Heroes of the Storm, Honor of Kings, Into the Badlands, Jackie Chan Adventures, Journey to the West, Kamihime Project, Kirby, Kung Fu Chaos, Kung Fu Monkey King, Kung Fu Panda: Paws of Destiny, League of Legends, League of Masters: Auto Chess, Legend of Ace, Legend of Wukong, Legends Summarized: The Monkey King, LEGO Brawls, LEGO Fortnite, Lo Scimmiotto, Lost Empire, Love, Hina, Magic Thousand Character, Marvel “Monkey King | Sun Wukong” and “Sun Wukong (Deity) | Monkey King,” Marvel vs Capcom 2, Mega Man: The Wily Wars, Megami Tensei, Michael and the Monkey King, Minecraft: Chinese Mythology Mash-Up, Miraculous: Tales of Ladybug & Cat Noir, Mobile Legends, Monkey: Journey to the West, Monkey, Monkey Around, Monkey Goes West, Monkey King: Myth of the Skull, Monkey King, Monkey King, Monkey King and the Imps, Monkey King, Monkey King Idle: AFK RPG, Monkey King The Bottomless Hole, Monkey King The Legend Begins, Monkey King the One and Only, Monkey King Unparalleled, Monkey Magic, Monkey Magic, Monkey Twins, Monkey Typhoon, Monkey VS Er Lang Shen, Monkey with 72 Magic, Monster Land, Monster Legends Competitive, Monty the Magic Monkey, My Hero Academia, Myth: Monkey King, Nagurikomi Son Goku, Naruto, Nevermore-W: Idle Immortal RPG, New Pilgrims to the West, Ohabare Son Goku, One Piece, The Monkey Sun, The Tale of the True Monkey and the False Monkey, Ori and the Will of the Wisp, Oriental Legend, Osomatsu kun, Overwatch, Paragon, Pirate 101, Pocket Knights 2: Dragon Impact, Pokémon, Princess Iron Fan, Princess Iron Fan, Project X Zone,

Puzzles & Dragons, Rabbids: Party of Legends, RAID: Shadow Legends, RaiRai Gokuu, Ravenswatch, Return of Wukong, Revival of the Monkey King, RWBY, Saiyuki: Journey West, Saiyuki, Saiyuki, SD Gundam World Heroes, Sealed Demon Tower, Secret Journey, Seven Fights with Nine Tail Fox, Seven Fights with Nine Tail Fox, Seven Knights Idle Adventure, Shaceng Diary, Shen Yun Production of Journey to the West, Shinzo, Sid Meier's Civilization VI, Six Eared Macaque, SMITE, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonson, Spaceketeers, Spark: A Space Tail, Strange Tales From a Chinese Studio, Strife, Subway Surfers, Summoners War Sky Arena, Sun, Sun Wukong vs Robot, Super Monkey Returns, Tang Monk Love Story, Tears of No Regret, The Adventures of Sun Wukong, The Fallen Hero, The Fantastic Magic Baby, The Four Monkeys The Return of Sun Wukong, The Great Sage Heaven’s Equal, The Karma Saiyuki, The Librarians, The Magic Cudgel, The Magic Journey to the West 2: Conquering the Demons, The Monkey and the Banshee, The Monkey King, The Monkey King, The Monkey King, The Monkey King, The Monkey King Demon City, The Monkey King’s Daughter, The Needle of the Sea Goddess, The New Legends of Monkey, The Player, The Rising Sun Saga, The True Monkey King, The Year Of Rice And Salt, Till We Meet Again, Tokyo Afterschool Summoners, Totally Accurate Battle Simulator, True and False Monkey King, Tsûzoku Saiyûki, Unmatched, Unruly Heroes, Warframe, War Song, West Adventure, West Tour Diary and Wukong Biography, Westward Journey Online II, Wu Cheng’En and Journey to the West, Wukong-Chinese & Math, Wukong Fight, Xin, The God of High School, Fly Superboard, New Journey to the West, Omniscient Reader, The Advanced Player of the Tutorial Tower, A Korean Odyssey, “Light of the Sun (Sun Wukong),” “Sun Wukong (Asian Trap Beat Mix),” “Sun Wukong (Battle),” “Sun Wukong (Monkey King),” “Sun Wukong Intro,” “Sun Wukong,” “Sun Wukong,” “Sun Wukong,” “Sun Wukong,” “Sun Wukong,” “Super,” “Sun Wu Kong,” Doraemon: The Record of Nobita's Parallel Visit to the West, Famicom Mukashibanashi: Yūyūki, Enoken no Son Goku: Zenpen, Carddass, Force of Will, Monster Strike, Lupin the Third Part II, Surprise, Unexpectedness, The Daily Life of the Immortal King, Ganso Saiyūki: Super Monkey Daibōken, The Legends of Changing Destiny, War Sovereign Soaring The Heavens, The Forbidden Kingdom, Great Sage, Marshal Tian Peng, Dream Journey, Journey to the West The Five Elements Mountains, Great God Monkey 1: Xiang Yao Pian, Great God Monkey, Saint, Journey to the West, A Chinese Odyssey, A Chinese Odyssey: Love of Eternity, A Chinese Odyssey, Journey to the West: The Supreme Treasure, Buddies in India, Havoc in Heaven, The Monkey King 1: Havoc In Heaven’s Palace, Heavenly Legend, Journey to the West Children’s Edition, Legend of Tian Peng, Yokai Watch, Battles with the Red Boy, The Monkey King Stormed the Sea Palace, Journey to the West, Adventures of Wukong, Wu Kong, Legend of Sun Wukong, LEGO Monkie Kid, A Chinese Tall Story, Journey to the West, Journey to the West, New Gods: Nezha Reborn, Smile Pretty Cure! The Movie: Big Mismatch in a Picture Book!, Dark Journey to the West: God of Destruction, Saiyuki, Warriors Orochi 2, InuYasha, White Dragon Horse, Monkey King Reincarnation, Cave of the Silken Web, Cave of the Silken Web, Taste of Love, Journey to the West: A Duel on the Faith, The Land of Many Perfumes, Journey to the West, Journey to the West, Journey to the West, Journey to the West Legends of the Monkey King, The Monkey King Reborn, Monkey King: Hero is Back, Monkey King Myth, Journey to the West Afterstory, Journey to the West Bi Qiu Kingdom, Journey to the West Demon’s Child, Journey to the West: The Legend of the Mermaid, Journey to the West 1: Conquering the Demons, Westward Journey Kungfu Monkey God and Demon Battle, Saiyukiden Dieno, Alakazam the Great, Journey to the West, Journey to the West, Monkey, Saiyuuki, Pigsy's Marriage, The Monkey King Quest For The Sutra, The Monkey King: The Five Fingers Group, Big Trouble in Dragon Palace, 19th century illustration of the Monkey King.

Under the cut includes sixteen screenshots of text documents detailing all of the media including Sun Wukong.]

Happy Sunday to The Most Guy In Anything!

[tumblezwei]

What's your take on the idea of the gods being the real villains/true final bosses of RWBY?

My take is pretty much the same as everyone else's at this point. It's pretty obvious that the gods weren't as omniscient and wise as they presented themselves as.

I guess my only original take is that I don't think the gods are as...malicious as people make them out to be. Arrogant and tyrannical, sure, but for some reason I see them more as the apathetic kind of cruel, rather than the active kind.

[hamliet]

Uniting Humanity is the biggest theme to RWBY and is the purpose of the relics. If the gods are completely ignored as characters in equal value of the others then what was the point to us learning WHY Salem and oz are the way they are and WHY Salem is trying to kill herself and the rest of humanity? The gods are underrated in the narrative for a reason. They're the final bosses team RWBY is going to face and it's going to be a conversation not a fight.

I don't agree. People are welcome to think what they like, of course--I am just stating my opinion. Well, and also @aspoonofsugar's, because we've been chatting about it. So this is partially my thoughts and partially Sugar-chan's!

Themes

I don't think uniting humanity is the biggest theme in RWBY--at least not by itself. I’d say RWBY’s overall theme is becoming human, on a personal level and a humanity level, so uniting is absolutely a major part of that, but not the whole. Think about Cinder, about Penny, about Pyrrha, about Ruby's central statement to Oscar: you're your own person. Of course the theme of unity is present and important, but it is complex, not simplified, which is how RWBY does most themes. @aspoonofsugar's explanation of trust in RWBY explains it really well.

Also, nobody is saying a conversation with the gods won't happen. IMO, it is quite possible, but it'll be very minimal and not a major plot point, and not all humanity will unite to confront them. They might like, take back the relics or something at the end, or watch over Salem as she probably eventually dies/crumbles into dust after letting go and finding peace. But I don't think it'll be a plot point so much as a moment that serves as thematic reinforcement--not even a direct thematic climax. 

The main focus has been Salem and will be Salem, and the play all along has been Ozpin vs Salem. Is Salem's philosophy correct or is Ozpin's? Salem’s philosophy is that everything is futile. Ozpin’s is that one small person can have an impact. That's the main philosophical question of the series, and you don't need to overthrow the gods to emphasize that Ozpin's is best--you might not be able to fix everything instantly, but you can change things as one small person. 

From episode one, where the Narrator is Salem and is immediately countered with Ozpin:

Ozpin (voice over): But perhaps victory is in the simpler things that you've long forgotten. Things that require a smaller, more honest soul.

Their conversation finishes at the end of Act 1 in Beacon:

Narrator: A smaller, more honest soul... It's true that a simple spark can ignite hope, breathe fire into the hearts of the weary. The ability to derive strength from hope is undoubtedly mankind's greatest attribute. Which is why I will focus all of my power... to snuff it out... 

Narrator: How does it feel, knowing that all of your time and effort has been for nothing? That your guardians have failed you? That everything you've built will be torn down before your very eyes? Your faith in mankind was not misplaced. When banded together, unified by a common enemy, they are a noticeable threat. But divide them, place doubt into their minds, and any semblance of power they once had will wash away.

Narrator: Of course, they won't realize it at first. Like you, they'll cling to their fleeting hope, their aspirations. But this is merely the first move.

Narrator: So you send your guardians, your Huntsmen and Huntresses, and when they fail and you turn to your smaller soul, know that you send her to the same pitiful demise.

Narrator: This is the beginning of the end, Ozpin... (she turns her head towards the audience) And I can't wait to watch you burn.

The main conflict from the very first episode has been set up between Oz and Salem, so that’s why it seems clear to me that their conflict is the central one. 

Structure

Now, structurally, RWBY as a story is never structured according to meeting and defeating stronger and stronger enemies. There are no “bosses.” There just aren’t, and I don't anticipate that being reflected in any part of the story. 

Additionally, the difficulty never increases arc by arc. It’s not a video game with like: Beacon easy, Mistral medium, Atlas difficult. Beacon was an all-out defeat, Mistral was more of a victory, and Atlas was a bittersweet tragedy. Through it all, the characters become more and more refined, though. But there is no distinct pattern of Bosses of Increasing Strength to defeat. 

Character

Cinder is probably the most complex character in the story. Salem is also somewhat complex, but not nearly as complex as Cinder. This is a very common structure in storytelling: the complex villain who seems like a big bad only for it to be revealed they are working for the True Big Bad who is less complex but ultimately in control. Like:

Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine

Kylo Ren and Snoke (this one got subverted, and then desubverted) 

Shigaraki and All for One 

Loki and Thanos 

Having the gods turning out to be the real villains puts Salem in Cinder’s role. She frankly just isn’t complex enough for that, and doesn’t have the set up for it. But the main reason this would not work is that it is redundant--it’s not good writing to reuse set ups and tropes when said repetition does not have a thematic point. That then becomes dull and tedious writing. 

Lastly, Sugar says here, basically:

Ruby’s inner conflict which will probably be about Summer Rose is connected to Salem, so it is Cinder’s one because Salem is her evil step-god-mother. Mercury and Emerald have ongoing conflicts with members of Salem’s inner circle.

The whole conflict in Anima and the one we are having in Solitas are all connected to Salem. Raven betrayed her family because of Salem after all and similarly Ironwood has lost himself out of fear for Salem. In each arc the conflict is so rich and layered because it is basically organized around the necessity to avoid Salem getting her hands on a relic. And so on.

In short, Salem works well as a villain of such a long series because she can’t be killed, but at the same time she can be fought. The Gods can’t really be fought, though. This is why if/when they will appear it will be as a way to end Salem’s story, so as a final part of it.

Anyways, this is why I do not think the gods are going to become major players in the story. I’m not saying they’ll never come up again and might never appear, but I don’t think they have a major role to play in any sense, and I certainly don’t think it’s going to be Salem + RWBY et al to defeat the gods. 

[19-bellwether]

i know the common theory for rwby is that the brother gods are the true secret unlockable final boss after salem but i honestly think the end goal is preventing them from ever coming back. show that remnant doesnt need their oh so holy presence to be worth something. im fully prepared to eat my words but i think the only time we'll see them is via flashback or like. a "near death experience cut to heaven maybe say hi to pyrrha if theres time" thing. the relics might even get destroyed just to show that humanity does not need them.

As long as the gods get screwed over, it's a good ending.

[littlemisssquiggles]

The Fall of RWBY

“Let’s try the quick version…can you make a bunch of doorways in Atlas that open at a single spot in Vacuo?”

“Sure. I’ll just need coordinates and specs for each door, an explanation for bending space and time to account for much greater traffic on one side and a single point of exit on the other.”

“Okay. That’s about what we expected. So we need to funnel everybody through a central location first.”

“You’re gonna have to tell me more about this central location. For starters, uh…where is it?”

“Here. A place like these vaults. Wherever they are, they’re not a part of Remnant. Only accessible if you know the right way in. Seems like a safe enough place for thousands of refugees.”

“You kids are either smart or much more foolish than you realize…”

  “... A place like these vaults. Wherever they are, they’re not a part of Remnant. Only accessible if you know the right way in...”

I have a curious question or rather…a curious thought. If the worlds inside of the vaults do not exist anywhere in Remnant, as affirmed by Yang in today’s episode then where exactly does this Other World inside the vault exists?

We know from the Lost Fable episode that Remnant was merely an experiment by the Brother Gods before they “left” Remnant. We also know from the Lost Fable that the Relics when brought together are the key to summoning the Gods back to Remnant for humanity to face Judgement Day.

My question is…summoning the Gods from where exactly? Where exactly did the Brother Gods go after they left Remnant? I know in the RWBY Fairytales from Remnant novel, it was hinted in the Two Brothers tale that the Gods never truly left Remnant and have actually been sleeping in wait until the day they would be awakened to rise up and judge the world they created and left to itself in their absence.

An exert from the Two Brother fairytale:

Finally, the God of Light call a truce. “Look around, Brother. We are tearing the world apart.”

“Let it burn,” the God of Darkness said.

“We are making people miserable and interfering in Humanity’s divine destiny,” the God of Light said. “Perhaps it is time we leave the world in their hands and see what they make of it.”

“Yes. Let us leave and go our separate ways at last,” the God of Darkness agreed.

But just as the two brothers were closely linked to each other, they were also closely tied to the world and their creations, most of all Humanity. In the act of creation, they had become less than they had been. They had given too much of themselves to be able to leave.

“We must take back our gifts,” the God of Darkness said. “Reclaim our power and wipe this experiment from existence.”

“I disagree,” the God of Light said. “And we promised to share in the fate of our joint creation.” He gave a might yawn. “Let us rest, and when the time comes, we will see what Humanity has become in our absence. 

…The two brothers agreed. But even in rest, they needed some distance from each other. Each dragon transformed himself into a new continent at one end of their world. And there, the dragons still sleep, until the day that the gods will waken, rise and judge…”

Keeping that thought in mind, I think it might be a safe assumption to say that the Gods are still on Remnant. I’d like to believe that the allusion of the Gods transforming themselves into continents at the opposites ends of Remnant is true since anyone who has ever peaked at a map of Remnant can clearly see the two dragons on the map.

One of the two dragons---which is I believe to be the God of Light---is represented by the continent of Anima where the Kingdom of Mistral and the City of Argus are located. While the second continent is the unknown one that has no name but exists opposite from Anima while Sanus (where the Kingdoms of Vale and Vacuo are located) rests between them.

I guess, in a nutshell, the point I’m trying to make here is a theory I have for the finale of V8. I can’t shake Ambrosius’ warning to RWBY and Penny in the Vault of the Winter Maiden.

“People enter from Atlas and Mantle on one side and leave on the other side with one way ticket to Vacuo.”

“Well everything seems to be in order. You were quite thorough. Disappointingly so.”

“So…it’s done.”

“Yeah.”

“Oh and one last point of clarification about this central location of yours. Do not fall. Okay and with that dire warning.”

He told them not to fall within the central zone and as we know, the central zone is an unknown world that, much like the worlds within the vaults, does not exist anywhere in Remnant but is connected to Remnant courtesy of Relics.

So my hunch is that at some point during finale, either RWBY will end up trapped in the Other World or rather…it will just be Ruby Rose who ends up falling and becoming trapped in the Other World and the only way to save her rests on ALPN and the discovery of the remaining two relics and vaults.

As we saw back in V6, as soon as the Relic of Knowledge was removed from its respective vault, the world that existed around it disappeared thus rendering the vault null and void. Thus, I think the same will happen with the Vault of the Winter Maiden. Now that RWBY_P have retrieved the Staff, the world within the vault will collapse and no longer exist thus tethering the vault’s connection to Remnant.

This will leave the vaults of the Summer and Fall Maidens remaining. However, since during V8, Tyrian and Mercury Black were seen heading toward Vacuo with an army of Grimm, my assumption is that Vacuo’s vault will become compromised by Salem’s forces.

Not to mention that we still don’t the true whereabouts of the Relic of Choice since according to Salem, that is the only vault that has yet to be found by her forces and not even Oscar knows about that one since that secret is one that Ozma would hold onto longer according to Salem. Not to mention that it was also stated by Oz back in V5 that he made it difficult for the Vault of the Fall Maiden to be found.

Nevertheless, I do believe that something major will happen to either one or all of Team RWBY. I think our heroes will end up trapped in the same world that housed the Relics and thus, their only way out is to traverse this mysterious Other World and find the location of the vaults on its end while their comrades look for a way to open the remaining vaults to bring their comrades back to Remnant on the other side.

Meaning that if someone were to become trapped in such world, they’d probably have to travel to wherever another vault is located and try to get out from that door way, granted that the Relic within that vault isn’t removed since it may seem that the Relics and the vaults are the only thing connecting Remnant to whatever mysterious world is inside of the vaults.

This is why I’m questioning what the world within the vault is. I was always of the opinion that the environments the relics were found in were just a construct of magic after the King of Vale originally built the vaults and the huntsmen academies. Now I’m starting to wonder if the Vaults probably existed long before the King of Vale and he just built the academies around the original doorways to the Other World the Relics were housed in; if that makes any sense.

Either way, I’m not taking Ambrosius’ warning too lightly. Something big is going to happen to one or more of our core heroes. I have a feeling that it’s going to be Team RWBY who end up falling inside of the central zone and becoming trapped in the Unknown World.

At the end of today’s episode, when Penny asked “What now?”; Ruby’s response was “We go to Vacuo. All of us and hope that we thought of everything.”

Obviously this is not going to be the case since our heroes didn’t account for Cinder Fall arriving to foil their plans. So naturally I’m expecting Cinder to finally make her play as the final big boss of this season and do something drastic to prevent all of our heroes from making it to Vacuo.

Given the allusions in today’s episode, my guess is Team RWBY will not make it Vacuo. They will all end up falling and ending up trapped in the Unknown World with no way out and no real way of returning to Remnant…or so it may seem. That’s my assumption.

Whether I’m correct or not, I’ll have to wait and see from the show.

~ LittleMissSquiggles (2021)

[niqhtlord01]

Welcome back fighting fans to yet another round of Rooster Teeth Championship! This week we have a doubles round between RWBY and, wait for it...... RWBY!  Salem 2: *Grim part forming a path to walk through* Salem: I will suffer no pretenders. Salem 2: Then lie down and die. Salem: *Grim hands extending from ground around her* Was that a joke? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neo: *Walks in changing clothing* Neo 2: *Changes clothes to match* Neo: *Nods approval and then changes hair color* Neo 2: *pouts and draws umbrella sword* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roman: *Walks in twirling cane* Roman 2: If this is that blue haired brat’s idea of a joke, I am not amused. Roman: As if you know anyone else as well dressed. Roman: *Aims cane and cap opens* True; almost a shame to kill you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sun: *Descends from above via tail and flips in* Sun 2: Wanna go rob some fruit after the fight? Sun: You have no idea how long I’ve waited to hear someone say that. Sun 2: *Nun chucks staff for a second* Five credits for a banana is robbery anyway in my book. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Velvet: *Walks in and snaps a picture* Velvet 2: Do you use motion stabilizing lenses? Velvet: Kinda have to when you’re getting shot at. Velvet: *Forms hologram minigun in hands* Get ready for some action shots. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WFL: *Walks in dragging chainsaw* WFL 2: Boss still obsessed with a girl? WFL: He died chasing her. WFL 2: *Revs chainsaw* Always knew it’d be one or the other. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Junior: *Takes a sip from a drink then picks up his bat* Junior 2: Rough night? Junior: A crazy blonde blew up my bar, twice. Junior 2: *Switches bat to rocket launcher* Well then this won’t make it any worse. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam: *Walks in and slowly pulls out sword* Adam 2: Out of my way, I need to find Blake. Adam: She’ll never love us you know. Adam 2: *Draws sword* Then I will make her. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Penny: *Lands and leaves impact crater* Penny 2: Hello, are you my sister? Penny: Perhaps; it is highly likely that we are twins. Penny 2: *Swords extend from back* I’ve never fought family before; I’ll try to go easy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tyrian: *Walks in giggling to himself* Tyrian 2: I must be mad; I’m seeing double. Tyrian: Madness was our default, remember? Tyrian 2: *Throws away coat and extends axes* Then it’s time for some intensive therapy hahahahah!!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Watts: *Walks in twitching mustache* Watts 2: Shall we skip the formalities and just start shooting? Watts: And here I thought we would have some witty banter. Watts 2: *Draws oversized pistol* We both are too smart for that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glynda: *Walks in snapping riding crop* Glynda 2: Are you going to mock my outfit as well? Glynda: Hardly; we both look stunning. Glynda 2:*Snaps riding crop* Finally, someone with some taste. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Qrow: *Walks in drinking from flask* Qrow 2: Rum and gin? Qrow: Vodka and Whiskey. Qrow: *extends scythe* That kinda of day huh? I’ll fight quietly. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oscar: *Walks in tapping cane on the ground* Oscar 2: Is this meant to be a metaphor? Oscar: At this point what isn’t? Oscar 2: *Extends cane* And to think we were once just a farm boy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hazel: *Stabs four crystals into shoulders* Hazel 2: Any final words? Hazel: Yeah; turn around and leave. Hazel 2: *Rips off jacket and stabs self with crystals* I always did have a sense of humor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ozma: *walks in with shining armor* Ozma 2:  Haven’t we suffered enough? Ozma: Our task is not finished. Ozma 2: *Sighs and takes combat stance* Then the gods truly are without mercy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clover: *Reels in fishing line* Clover 2: Was I always that devilishly handsome? Clover: We do have that roguish charm, don’t we? Clover 2: *Casts reel like whip and reels it in again* We are the definition of a “Catch” after all. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Winter: *Strides in with crisp military march* Winter 2: Impersonating an Atlas officer is a criminal offense. Winter: Then turn yourself in and I might go easy on you. Winter 2: *Splits knife from sword* I gave you your chance. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[anthurak]

Okay come on. Even ignoring the fact that Jinn lying would break her entire narrative and magical purpose, why would she swap Darkness in for Light in the destruction of Humanity? Light was still right there going along with it, not stopping him or reviving everyone. And it's not like he was really presented as the ultimate good in the rest of the story.

Oh, I can think of a few reasons.

Like the fact that Jinn was created by the God of Light, and thus would have a reason to want, or perhaps be compelled, to twist the narrative in his favor.

Or how Ruby's question was 'What is Ozpin hiding from us?' meaning that Jinn's answer may very well be skewed by what Oz does know, and more importantly DOESN'T know. Remember how we see Light specifically TELLING Ozma that it was his brother that wiped out humanity 1.0?

And most telling of all, when we finally got information on the brothers' past from something approaching an unbiased, reliable source in the form of the Blacksmith...

...we learn that it was actually Light who wanted to DESTROY their flawed creation when it did not live up to their expectations.

So yeah, I'd say we are firmly in the realm of possibility that Jinn is yet another unreliable narrator and that Light is pinning all the destruction on his brother so he can seem like the squeaky-clean 'good' god of the two.

When in reality HE'S the asshole and probably the true final boss of RWBY.

[tumblingxelian]

RWY V9 - E10 - Of Solitude and Self

Final episode, I AM SO NERVOUS-CITED! 

Oh shit Summer flashback, she loves them just as they are!

Also their bodies are so teeny tiny. 

She knows she is going to her doom in one form or another. 

Seems Tai wasn’t super involved in the Ozpin stuff to begin with, he was the tag along I call it as I see it! 

Holy fuck, Raven, the sassy banter, the low key animosity over the kids, Raven is helping, Raven knew she’d be a bad parent, I fucking called it! 

Does she think Summer just quit? 

Oh you never were the hero is for Jaune, oh damn please don’t make him young again. 

What is Alyx suggesting? Also is that all her model was for :( 

I do wish Blake got to look cool in a solo fight again, but hey Freezerburn is back, that’s cool! 

So Curious like, full on cannot Ascend then right? More weight to my alien gods theory, I am holding onto it! 

Good work Jaune you made everything worse! 

Crescent ROSE! 

Red Like Roses? 

That was fucking boss. 

Well uh, sorry to those who thought there would be befriending of Curious. 

Oh shit, Neo chose ascension, that was unexpected! 

Hmm, not sure on the follow her bit, I feel like we haven’t addressed Ruby’s trauma over much yet. 

LITTLE :’( 

I knw its still them but aaaaah 

AND JUNIPER TOO!? Come on, let them come with!!!! 

HOLY FUCK! 

One of my theories that the brothers came from the Ever After rather than making it came fucking true, holy shit!?!?!?! 

And they made the Jabberwalker, well that one got called! 

Also wooh RWBY being cool with colors!

Tree: Get the fuck out of here until you get this shit out of your systems. 

She didn’t break her promise though she was still going to leave just later. 

Fuck, Jaune got de-aged, lame :/ 

Vacuo looks cool, and it seems Amity & the Atlas fleet arrived too. 

Overall I enjoyed the lore side of things, but I feel not enough was really resolved on the character front, so much set up but the pay off feels kinda... Weak given the weight we saw Ruby straining under seen this volume and I'm not sure it was adequately address. Still, this gives us a potential way of resolving the gods and Salem which is neat.

[theonceoverthinker]

430. For tonight’s Fair Game HC, we’re finally getting down to busiMYTH with these two!

...I’m starting to think that my video game preferences might be a big of a driving force as to how I write these. So if you haven’t guessed by the title and that last sentence, I have been REALLY into Hades as of late (As a side note, SOMEONE TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS GAME, PLEASE)! I still haven’t beaten the final boss yet, but I am close, and what’s more -- I am ADDICTED to digging into this game like Scrooge McDuck in a gold mine!

Now what does that have to do with Fair Game, you may ask?

Well, I was thinking, how would Qrow and Clover relate to these Greek Gods and Goddesses (For the purposes of this HC, we’re gonna pretend that Greek Mythology coexists with the Gods of Light and Dark as kind of a vacuum thing separated from the war of Salem -- like, the RWBY cast unlocks them after finishing the main Salem campaign as if it was all a big video game)? Which ones would they like or dislike or whatever? I think it’s pretty interesting, so here we go!

-Let’s get the obvious one out of the way -- Clover thinks Poseidon is the best of the gods. He’s a chill guy, loves the water, is friends with fish -- what’s not to love for one Clover Ebi?! Clover knows more about him and his kin than he does about any of the other Gods or Goddesses. In an AU where the Greek Gods exist in Remnant, Clover would absolutely praise Poseidon whenever he gets a good catch and seriously considered making his weapon a trident for a time to better emulate him.

-Since Qrow has a collection of fairy tale books stored in his home (After all, if three fairy tales in their universe are true, then so can others, right?!), it stands to reason that he has a Greek Mythology book (Or Remnant’s equivalent) or two there, too. Qrow’s read them through a time or two and has a few steps above a passing knowledge of all of them. Clover learned some basic knowledge about the main ones from his pre-Atlas Academy school, and between the media and Qrow, his knowledge is maybe a smidge above average compared to any Remnant Rando.

-Qrow’s had a fondness for Nyx all his life. It started out with him just thinking she looked interesting (maybe he even had a crush on her), then he felt a kinship to her because of his semblance, then just had a general appreciation of her. He feels similarly towards Hephaestus, and dislikes Hera for her cruelty towards him.

-Both Clover and Qrow think highly of Artemis. They’re Huntsmen who are the top of their fields, and you know that if Artemis existed in Remnant, there’d be all sorts of amazing stories of her taking down giant Grimm with almost nothing on hand as a weapon. They’ve commented to each other how much Artemis resembles Robyn, but then they start to question if they really think that, or if it’s just the bow. The results of these discussions remain inconclusive.

-Qrow has a...complicated relationship with Dionysus. While not much of a partier himself, Qrow appreciates Dionysus’ ‘cool guy’ persona. For a while, he probably edged out Nyx and Hephaestus for his favorite God to learn about (He absolutely supplied Qrow with all sorts of drinking philosophies through his mythos). That said, well, let’s just say this room has a little too much ivory to ignore (Get it...Elephant in the room...You get it...). Yeah...the God of Wine is an awkward subject for a recovering alcoholic. So once he starts recovering, he stops paying attention to Dionysus, which works...unless he’s reading/watching something featuring the other Gods and Goddesses on Olympus. 

Tags under the cut!

Tagging @skybird13 @whipped4qrow @mooksie01 @luck-of-the-caw @xwildangel @solitude-of-stars @vastnessofthespiral @o0nashipear0o @unfairgamey @doctorrwby @clover-and-co @megan-atthedisco @wash-my-brain @bisexualdisasterqrow @thursdayseraph @doubledexterity @rwby-things-i-guess @atlas-heartthrob @the-answer-was-bi-klance @compoterie @thuskindlyiboop @oceansquid @transdemion @deltastream21 @mimiori @xya-hunter @delta-altair @genderqueer-turtle @roman-torchtwink @subatomictealeaves @drbtinglecannon @saphiralunaris @pretentiouskneecaps @amxngsthxmans @ayomez13 @carbonated-table-spices @darkestsiren @chaosgameingkoi @collectingsparechangemadeeasy @michaels-daughter2005 @youmaywanttoduck @lovethewitchofendor @victorious1956 @kendalllwayland @madamoisellesica

Want to be tagged in future Fair Game HC’s (Or untagged, I understand) and be the first to catch all of the romance, fluff, drama, and puns (Sometimes all at the same time)? Send me a reply, PM, or ask, and it shall be done!

Would you also like to check out my old Fair Game HC’s? Who wouldn’t? Well, here’s a link to my Fair Game HC archives!!!!

[kob131]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byjiwECylIE

So EruptionFang made a video about Raven Branwen. 

Considering his last video I watched (his Volume 8 Episode 2 Breakdown) was basically him shitting himself continuously because he’s STILL bitter about his headcanon being disproven, I don’t have high hopes.

But who knows, maybe he’ll make a good point.

0:00 - 1:24 “In RWBY, other characters get torn down to make Team RWBY look better, like the show only wants you to like Team RWBY! No one gets to be fleshed out or understood by the show! It’s SOOO disrespectful!”

...

*SMASH!*

Sorry, that was the sound of me faceplanting so hard I smashed a desk in half.

Really, Team RWBY never rises up and only other characters get torn down to make them look good? Yang never had to develop from being reckless as all hell to actually using her head in a fight? Blake didn’t have to get over her own fears and learn to accept help from others? Weiss didn’t have to struggle against her own personality to become a better person overall? Ruby didn’t have to struggle against the world itself and her own worldview to keep going?

This shit that is OBSERVABLE IN THE FUCKING SHOW didn’t happen? Sure, and there are two Adams. Even by the example you visually give (Avatar The Last Airbender)- Team RWBY still rose up like Team Aang did.

And don’t give me that ‘other characters get torn down!’ bullshit. The Ace Ops weren’t made to look bad to make Team RWBY look good- They failed because of their own personal flaws that were already established before that fight (Harriet’s recklessness, Elm’s temper, Vine’s detached attitude, Marrow’s disconnect). And Adam wasn’t torn down AT ALL: he remained the same damn character throughout his appearances and failed through his own failures born from his character.

And funny how you talk about other character not getting developed and yet ignore the Ace Ops’ boss. What’s wrong? Oh yeah, Ironwood IS developed (EXTENSIVELY. As in, we know more about his thought process, reasoning and actions than even WEISS, let alone Blake, Yang and Ruby.) so he just becomes a walking debunking of your OPENING ARGUMENT.

Not even past the intro and I’m already pissed.

1:46 ‘Any character’s righteous revolutions-’

Which didn’t exist, was disproven in the first episode and completely ignores BASIC writing tropes (like ‘Villians LIE’).

But please, keep talking about your delusions.

1:56 ‘There is an inescapable bubble Raven is in by both the audience and the characters!’

Spoiler Alert: It’s a bubble Raven HERSELF made in the first place.

‘A bubble that she’s a coward and cares about no one but herself.’

True and effectively true. I’ll explain WHY later.

(Nothing to say about the ‘Meeting Yang and Raven’ part, moving on)

8:37 - 8:51 *quotes Shane’s letter, portraying it as a cruel choice to ignore the Volume 2 stinger scene.*

So now we’ve moved on to tearing off chunks of Monty’s corpse and Shane’s grief to use for his own headcanon. Fan-fucking-tastic.

I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone using this- partially because it’s always using an emotional connection to Monty to manipulate the audience. Partially because this was a DUMB decision. 

Where the FUCK would Raven fit into Volume 3? Even the section EF takes from is about a fight that everyone agrees wouldn’t have fit into Volume 3 at all and served no purpose and this is the ONLY mention of Raven. Combine this with how Volume 3 is structured (where Raven can’t do anything that Qrow didn’t already do), how ambiguous the final scene of Volume 2 was, the Mary Sue accusations against Yang at this point and Raven’s revealed personality- She wouldn’t WORK in Volume 3. Just because Monty had the idea doesn’t make it a good one. Fuck, he BROUGHT ON Miles and Kerry BECAUSE he knew he wasn’t a writer and his last contribution (Maidens) was BY FAR the worst aspect of RWBY which proves that even more.

EF, you’re bitching that Raven wasn’t shoved into a Volume already overstuffed and lacking in time and resources. With NO purpose and contradicting her personality.

Congrats on encouraging bad writing.

10:43 ‘It doesn’t make sense that in introducing the maidens and making Raven one, they cut her attacking Pyrrha to get her Maiden powers!’

Yeah- nice headcanon. Too bad your own quote says they didn’t know the purpose, Shane’s letter never says the purpose either and you even say it’s speculation. Also too bad that we’re suppose to SYMPATHIZE with Raven on some level later on and a large part of why Cinder isn’t portrtayed as sympathetic is that she KILLED Pyrrha, Raven’s theoretical target. Thus Raven’s attack would make her even MORE unlikeable.

‘B-but it changes the context of what we know, like Yang’s search for her!”

And how? 

“Through her message to Yang, which was hostile and angry!”

... Really? The message of “I won’t save you again” is angry and hostile? It seems more matter of fact to me, informing Yang she won’t help her again not out of anger or dislike but through her worldview, which would be disconnected from her emotions on the surface.

Qrow’s words never include an insult or attack on Yang, like calling her weak or mocking her. You can INTERPRET it as hostile and angry but that depends on the subjective worldview of the person. The actual words and message don’t carry hostility or anger. They carry apathy.

‘B-but it splits her character in two-!’

Oh my god, did you SERIOUSLY try to pull another ‘Two Adams’ on me?

Raven DIDN’T HAVE a character to spilts in those two appearances. We knew nothing about her as a person. Her saving Yang and that supposed talk could have been for and about ANYTHING. That’s why there were so many theories: NOTHING was known. And nothing about those actions inform her character without context, which Volume 2 never gives.

This ‘first Raven’, like CJ Black’s ‘First Adam’, DOESN’T EXIST. It’s just a headcanon you refused to accept as being debunked.

‘W-well, Raven still looked after Yang when her arm was cut off!’

In bird form. And only bird form. And never directly interacts with Yang. All in a form Yang DOESN’T KNOW she’s in. Suffering from problems RAVEN HERSELF caused. WITH A FUCKING PORTAL TO HER AT ALL TIMES.

‘B-but her actions say that she DOES care!’

I knew PRECISELY what arguments you were gonna make the moment I started this video. Because they’re the SAME DAMN SHIT I’ve seen to defend Raven before. And let me go ahead and tear it down now: Raven being around in bird form means NOTHING. Without Yang knowing it’s her, it is meaningless. It’s WORSE than nothing because it demonstrates that Raven could have been with Yang throughout her life with no apparent cost to her because SHE WAS ALREADY DOING IT. And it means she watched Yang struggle with her abandonment and the toll it took on her family and ESPECIALLY Yang and did NOTHING to fix the problem. 

Even ignoring the portal thing, taking this one scene in a vacuum- her looking at her depressed daughter and then fucking off paints her as either so lacking in empathy that she can’t be bothered to help HER OWN CHILD or so ill equipped to be a parent she makes TFS Goku look like...well, Taiyang. With CONTEXT, (still ignoring the portal thing), she CAUSED this depression by scarring Yang all those years ago and made Yang’s life worse for it. With the portal, she couldn’t even do the barest of minimum standards.

You can try to portray this as beautiful all you want: Nothing is shown stopping Raven from actually BEING A PARENT FOR ONCE before this and after this, we KNOW it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest and she STILL chooses to not help. It’s one of the worst cases of parental apathy I have ever seen and fuck you for trying to bitch out the creators because you chose to IGNORE CONTEXT.

‘Instead of making it so Raven abandoned Yang because of her Maiden powers, they instead chose to abandon her role as a mother!’

You mean they had a character make a decision that completely fits with how the audience would perceive the character at this point?

Everyone, consider what we know about Raven. She’s Qrow’s twin sister, meaning she’s logically just skilled and strong as Qrow is. She’s also a Maiden, something that gives characters an IMMENSE amount of power separate from their normal abilities. She has a decoy so no one knows what she actually is. She has a portal to and from Yang at ALL times. She’s as strong as the strongest non-Maiden character shown so far, IS a Maiden bolstering her power beyond the Maidens we DO know of and can instantly be there for Yang at any time in her life and get away if someone tries to go after her, which makes no sense if it’s about her being a Maiden because she has a DECOY for this thing.

And yet, with all these things working for her, giving her every advantage that DEFIES the common trope EF is pushing- Raven still ditched her, ditched her a second time and couldn’t even be bothered to give her deeply apathetic message herself. And now supposedly, Raven would suddenly become a mother to Yang...and we’re expected to feel happy about this.

Yeah, no. People would be outraged that Raven got off scot free. In no part

“Everyone keeps being hostile and angry with Raven, who is also being hostile and angry. This means that the other guys are just pidgeonholding her into this role!”

Yes, a trend that Raven HERSELF causes. Qrow is hostile towards her because she tried to act as though she cared about her family to Qrow, a character shown to be a loyal person, but ignores her own DAUGHTER when it’s supposedly about family. Yang is hostile towards Raven because she knows Raven could have been there for her but chose not to, all while she NEEDS to find her ACTUAL family. Even Taiyang’s look at the end of Volume 5 makes sense as if she’s there, that means she’s likely running from their daughter, whom she has failed as a parent YET AGAIN despite Taiyang giving her a generous interpretation.

Raven is being forced into a role SHE MADE FOR HERSELF.

“This isn’t how it was at the beginning of the show. Yang and by extension the audience is sad and curious while Raven and Qrow are angry and toxic.”

Again, you ignore context.

Yang knows NOTHING about Raven and was abandoned by her. Of course she’d be sad and curious.

But Qrow is different. He DOES know Raven, saw first hand what her actions have done to his family while being the type of person who would HATE this and Raven is actively being manipulative while also avoiding him as he asks for help in SAVING THE WORLD.

Later on, Yang finds Raven...after learning that Raven had every chance in the world to be there for her and chose NOT to. All while Raven exudes arrogance and a selfish pride in being a ‘prize’ for Yang to work towards.

Then Raven proceeds to use her as BAIT, abandon her, try to turn her against the family that HAS been there for her, insults the father and uncle who loved and cared for her- all for more power...that wouldn’t even solve the problem Raven has. She stabbed her own brother and daughter in the back...for nothing. Because of her own flaws, something Yang fought against and overcame making her more mature than her MOTHER.

And after all that, she is given one last chance to truly show her love for Yang: to help her and join her. To go with her and put herself at risk for Yang’s safety or at least taking the Relic so Salem will target her instead of Yang. And what does Raven do? Abandons her AGAIN.

Abandons her to run off near her ex, the man she left with a child and a broken heart. She uses her connection to him to run away from her responsibility as a parent, running away from THEIR DAUGHTER. The girl he raised up without blaming Raven for anything, instead trying to paint a good picture of her in Yang’s head.

No shit people are hostile or unhappy with her- She keeps FAILING.

‘Oh hey, they made her an antagonist and thus EVIL! The writer’s CLEARLY think that there’s no way a parent who abandoned their child can be anything other than EVIL!’

... Then how come they portray her as conflicted and sad in the finale of Volume 5?

Much like how Adam’s unmasking fundamentally BREAKS his previous arguments of ‘HE EVIL!’ because it helps humanize Adam and give him pity and sorrow, the same is done here with the finale and Raven’s final actions so far. If Raven were evil, she wouldn’t have tried justifying her actions. Salem, Tyrian and , actively evil characters, don’t act like Raven. And they certainly don’t show regret or sorrow for their actions or conflicts about the results. This goes AGAINST how people perceive evil, even in the show itself.

So if she’s supposedly EVIL, why is her climax all about aspects that are fundamentally incompatible with how evil is portrayed in the show?

Answer: Raven’s not portrayed as evil. She’s portrayed as FLAWED, with actual negative flaws that cause her grief and pain like any normal character. EF is just throwing a fit that a ‘character’ he likes isn’t being treated as positive.

‘Volume 4 wasn’t where we got our first impression of Raven, it was Volume 2 and 3!’

And what impression could you get?

That she’s strong...and that’s it. At least, that’s it for positive traits. Raven is strong because she scared off Neo and that’s all the positive traits we have of her.

Everything else is negative. She apparently doesn’t care enough about Yang to stay around in any capacity for whatever reason. She refuses to see Yang and is largely apathetic towards her. She can be there for Yang but chooses not to. And her own twin brother Qrow doesn’t really like her.

The things we saw of Raven then paint a picture of someone who doesn’t care about Yang in any meaningful way. Even though I’ve chosen to ignore the portal thing, I really shouldn’t because she showed the portals off since Volume 2, meaning since her physical introduction she ALWAYS had a path to Yang but never chose to. EF acts as though these aspects of Raven didn’t exist before Volume 4...when the barest minimum of thought shows them in before that.

‘Their biggest mistake was the Volume 2 end credits scene since it goes against everything they wanted to do with her as a character!’

Yeah...and you argue for including it even though your own source shows that the other writers KNEW this issue.

‘The first impression we got of her was her saving Yang’s life and then confronting her!’

Yeah, and guess what? Those are not inherently positive. She could have saved Yang to manipulate her and use her as a pawn for all we knew. For as many positive interpretations you can give for these actions, I can give a negative interpretation. All because these actions lacked context at the time so it was neither positive nor negative.

The context dictated what these actions were. And context defined them as ultimately positive...but flawed. Which you conflate with malice.

‘The Volume 2 scene was meant to be a kicking off point-’

For what? Once again, the scene is not inherently positive. Raven never shows care or love for Yang in that scene, all she shows is a desire to talk (which without context of what she says, what it means, what her intentions are, how informed she is and how she uses this opportunity- makes it neutral.)

After this you do this cartoonish ‘oh they changed direction!’ thing without a single shred of evidence beyond a letter made by a grief madden man which doesn’t even say what you are saying. You keep assigning direction to something without a clear direction.

‘So how do you address her Maiden plotline with her Yang plotline?’

You make it about her personal failing of trying to use power to hide her cowardice, show that she lies to herself as well as others to justify her actions and show how she fails? Like how they showed that her ditching Yang lines up with how she refuses to take action until backed into a corner, gets confronted repeatedly with her flaws as her daughter (someone far weaker and less informed) keeps going and the show forces her to see how she’s being cowardly?

‘Don’t do one.’

... Translation: ‘i didn’t like what the show did so I’m gonna do selective remembering to make it look like nothing happened. ... What? I did it with Adam.’

Regardless of how you feel about the plotlines- They were BOTH addressed. It wasn’t dropped, it wasn’t forgotten- It was resolved as I have shown multiple times here.

And here at 20:33 I’m ending this. It’s pretty damn clear that Erup-Cole is just ignoring whatever doesn’t fit his view. Instead of taking a look at what happened and trying to understand the pattern that comes, he’s making up a pattern and patchworking it together through cherry picking.

I see that he hasn’t changed from his Adam tantrum, because this is the EXACT SAME VIDEO, just stretched out and about Adam’s MILF form. And I do mean ‘Adam’s MILF form’ because I don’t think a character with such superficial similarities to him getting the same treatment is a coincidence.

Cole, you can’t try selling me something with THIS much bullshit. It’s like trying to serve me a maggot infested steak and telling me it’s well cooked. You’re full of shit and no matter how much you try to hide it, it won’t change.

Your headcanons are not canon and it’s your fault you take such offense. Deal with it.

[marithlizard]

First Impressions: RWBY v8c9, “Witch”

"Witch", huh?  Presumably Salem.  Are we going to get more backstory lore? Because YES PLEASE.

The Atlas army vs. the whale whose teeth loom like mountains on the horizon.  They look like toys. I can't help thinking these soldier mooks equal any Huntsman in courage, if not in skill.  And this is the first real large-scale action any of them have seen - that anyone in the world has seen in their lifetimes.

eyy Ren has gotten over the snappishness as well as the despairing angst.    Suddenly gaining control of his evolving Semblance must help a lot with the feelings of powerlessness.  (And though we haven't seen him use it on Jaune or Yang, I'm thinking being able to know for certain how much your friends care about you and have your back  is a source of power in itself.)

They're discussing fairy tales MY HEART

Ozpin continuing to confirm he has handed over the reins completely to Oscar.   I don't like this about the accelerating merge, though. It feels like we're going to lose Oz  very soon. And yet,  Jinn's vision definitely showed us Oz and host coexisting in middle age.  Did they not use magic in that lifetime?  Or is the merge somehow not about "losing" either one of them?

Team FNKI in a line of regular soldiers!  They've got to have mobilized all the students, but I wonder if we'll see any others besi-  Neon. Neon you are wearing rollerskates to the apocalypse.  

...well, why not?  

Marrow,  YOU'RE just a kid.  You can't be more than a few years older, and you're not that much more seasoned. Though I understand the feeling.

So, Hazel, you're ready to rejoin fact-based reality?  Or at least listen to someone who pretty much definitionally can't be lying?  

(Actually...the only information we have about Jinn comes from her, and it'd be a hell of an interesting twist if she was editing facts to fit her own agenda.  I don't think it's very likely for meta reasons, but it'd make a great fic premise, wouldn't it?)

Huh.  He sounds much much calmer, and like he's been thinking through everything for the last few hours.  

....what? He's not even going to ask???  THAT is a surprise.  The existence of Jinn and knowing Oscar  gave him the password in good faith  were enough to deradicalize a violent extremist. (Wish it was that easy in RL.)

Oscar's little wave

(You know, now that I think of it,  Ozpin has never interacted with Jinn himself.  She's greeted him twice and he hasn't answered.  Does he resent her for not answering his predecessor's questions more helpfully?  Mistrust her?  )

yes rescue Emerald good

"Just to be  clear" - oh god I thought that was Salem's voice and nearly jumped out of my seat.

"I'll come back for it"  crap crap crap  Hazel's redemption arc is going to be short, painful, and fatal.   And Salem will keep the lamp, if not have the password.

And we'll just all turn our backs on the divine artifact-entity and walk away.  I guess they don't think she's enough of a person to say goodbye to?  

And our eavesdropper is...the one person who CAN'T summon Jinn or ask her a question.  

Oh no. No.  Please don't have the fandom descend into "Jinn is ablist" discourse. (ETA: upon thinking further I take it back,  the gods suck and providing a Relic that not everyone can use is in its way a tiny symbol of their callous attitude to people. ) 

RJY working smoothly together, nice. 

Robyn said people are always suspicious of her, and her truthsense ability has a clearly visible limiting condition.    But Ren can apparently read the emotions of everyone around him all the time without them knowing.  Surely that would make a lot of people uncomfortable.  (Although I expect  the writers to ignore this, and will be pleasantly surprised if they explore it at all.)

That's always the way isn't it, you roll a 4 on your concentration check right when a demonic jellyfish is floating by.

Huh, they separated from Oscar?  And Hazel is worried about him? I'm still dizzy from the speed of this 180.  

uh...hi, Salem.  Nice...weather outside the whale today?  Seen any good dismemberments lately?

Hazel,  you are a terrible liar and you can't bluff.   Admittedly the stakes are a lot  higher here than in the weekly WTCH poker game.

Salem NYOOM

No one can accuse Yang of not understanding the core competencies.

"Juan"???  I did hear that correctly, yes?  Marrow not remembering Jaune's name is hilarious.  And I was about to say understandable, but no, they worked with the Ace Ops for weeks!  Did you just have him mentally filed as "the blond himbo tank"?

O-kayyyyyy.    I can't blame Emerald,  but this could go so horribly wrong so fast. 

Isn't Hazel-disguised-as-Oscar  way too heavy to pick up like tha-  OHHHHHHHHH.  Now things make much more sense.  Oscar was the one worried about Hazel earlier,  and failing utterly to bluff.  Infinitely more in character.

Awkward Semblance is also extremely convenient in short-cutting negotiations. Nice.

I do not, in fact, have any doubt that Winter would blow up her sister.   And in this situation  I can't say it's the wrong thing to do.  As far as they know their bomb is the only hope.

Wow. I really did not think we’d go to toe to toe with Salem herself at this point in the plot.  It's so traditional to save the final boss fight for, well, the final boss.  She's terrifying and unstoppable, but not actually more terrifying than the giant whale.    

Her regen is just like  the Hound's body morphing, but far smoother and faster with a thousand "deaths" of practice.

She sounds more normal right now, oddly.   Her voice is lacking both the measured slowness and the resonance it has when she's making speeches.  I like the idea of that falling away when she's surprised and exasperated.  

Our heroes are very very lucky that RWBY is not a darker show, or those Grimmhand  restraints would be doing a lot of gross agonizing damage with their nails.   There's no reason she'd want to be gentle at this point.

Yeah, there's the sonorous voice again. Although it wavers again with that "Why do you Keep. Coming. Back?"   Does she not know? How can she not know, Jinn's vision said Ozma told her everything.  Perhaps she means: why do you keep fighting  me instead of hiding like the hermit.

Yang, don't give her information,  gah!   "Her again."  She sounds pleased.  I think we are going to find out Summer's fate this volume after all.  Salem will reveal it to break Ruby’s spirit.  Prediction: it will work. 

(EDIT: I completely missed the significance of Yang calling Summer “my mom”.  Wow.)

She definitely intends to turn Emerald into something like the Hound.

"No more Gretchens."   Oh, of course that's what Oscar said he needed before they could leave, the cane.

Hazel's life expectancy is minutes long but at least it included a satisfying KAPOW.   And every single sparkly crystal he owns.  Somehow he seems smaller here, less bulky than he did at Haven.  Less a titan and more a man.

yigh he's pounding her into mush.  Which he has several times before, apparently.  This is all to buy you time, Emerald, why are you not running.   (I know, I know.   She's never had someone actually help her and care about her, only scraps of affection to establish control.    At this moment Cinder's hold on her is breaking forever.)

(Neo, on the other hand.  Will she bring the lamp to Cinder, who frankly has been a totally crap partner and deserves no loyalty?    Is she still after revenge?   My bet is still firmly on her planning to backstab Cinder as soon as Ruby is gone.  But beyond that, we don't know her thoughts at all.  She might join the heroes, or disappear like Raven to hide while the apocalypse works itself out.)

That's true, Oscar, but what can you do to stop her?  

Hah!  Clever,  Hazel.  And she's actually screaming in pain from the fire, whereas she didn't make a sound when being pulverized.

What does the cane DO?  It's impressive as heck, but I can't tell.  Channeling his magic, certainly.  Are we going to lose Oz  right now?  With no chance to talk to Ruby or Qrow or anyone, to reconcile?  It seems all too likely, and such a waste.

Which makes me think, in turn, that perhaps we will lose Oscar too in a way.  Unexpected - I have always thought the merge would end with Oscar holding all the memories.  But maybe he won't be quite either of them anymore, even if he remembers both and the others still call him Oscar.  And that thought also makes me sad.

Anyway,  good episode, though now the title doesn’t seem particularly relevant. Hazel was much more the focus.