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twig-tea · 20 days ago

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Love in the Big City TV Series Episodes 1 &2: The Loneliness of Conformity and Nonconformity

[Wondering what’s going on here? In Feb-Mar of this year a bunch of us agreed to read the Love in the Big City novel one part per week and write pieces in response to the novel and @bengiyo’s excellent discussion questions weekly, which was a fantastic experience. @lurkingshan did the driving and wrangling and organizing, and compiled all of the meta from that period here . Now we’re watching and responding the series on the same cadence, 1 part (2 episodes) per week, and Shan is once again wrangling us and Ben is again providing excellent discussion questions to help inspire responses. Like last time, rather than answer the discussion questions directly, I’ll let them inform the directions my thoughts take. Also re: romanization, I’m going to use Go Yeong for the TV adaptation and Young for the novel since they seem to have standardized his name to “Yeong” at least on Viki, and that provides some distinction which is convenient].

In my written response to part 1 of the novel I talked about how Young was an unreliable narrator, because he was so dissociated from his own emotions that he didn’t often notice when he was having them. The loss of the bulk of the first person narration is inevitable in an adaptation to a visual medium, but I think these episodes still captured Young’s general disconnect to his emotions especially in episode 1. There are moments where he smiles that felt almost jarring, like smiling is his default response even if it’s emotionally a mismatch. The change in perspective in the series also means we see beyond Young’s POV, so we get the Mi Ae outing scene (which as @lurkingshan laid out, lent Mi Ae more sympathy than Jaehee was represented with in the novel) which really underscored that in that moment, she chose her future husband and the person she was becoming over her best friend and the person she used to be. I liked how the series included the karaoke scene with the T-ara's shading Nam Gyu so that we had context for what Yeong expected when he went to dinner with Mi Ae and Jun Ho, and how different Mi Ae's behaviour was to his expectations (instead of his commentary about it that we got from his first person narration in the novel).

Like @starryalpacasstuff pointed out, I liked how the argument in the show between Yeong and Mi Ae after she outed him made it more obvious that part of the reason why Yeong was so upset was that he was already hurt by Mi Ae pulling away. @wen-kexing-apologist rightly pointed out that Mi Ae put herself in the position to have to out Yeong by lying to Jun Ho in the first place, and one of the things that both the novel and the series left me wondering was whether Jaehee/Mi Ae made that decision knowingly; did she choose to embrace amatonormativity and a heteronormative life trajectory because she wanted it, or did she feel like she had to? Either way, Yeong's pain of seeing someone who he otherwise had so much in common deviate towards the norm and leave him behind and further isolated is very familiar. I linked out to my alternative milestones to measure your life by in that original book club post and I’ll take the excuse to do it again; for those of us who find the standard hetero/amatonormative milestones alien/undesirable, it’s nice to think about other ways we can think about the progress in our lives.

Another change in the series that I appreciated was the addition of more of Yeong and Nam Gyu’s relationship. Ben talked about how much more realized a character Nam Gyu was to K3/Kia guy in his post. The building out of K3 with things like a hometown, cheesy song choices, (h/t @moutheyes) and heteronormative romantic idealism tied to traditions like Namsan Tower (h/t @lurkingshan) was all possible because of the time that a visual medium provides (like WKA said in their post linked above) and all made him feel much more like a real person that inspired sympathy than Young ever described him as in the novel (this is not a failing of the novel, but it gives them a different flavour that I am appreciating in both iterations).

And because he’s a more realized character, Nam Gu's death hit me harder watching the show. From reading the novel, I remember Young returning to K3’s final text messages regularly, and how his reaction sounded very dissociated, but the scene of the empty funeral mourning room in the series is one of those visuals that will stick with me. It's been a couple of days and my stomach hurts just thinking about it. He was trying so hard to live a "normal" life that he was in some fundamental ways barred from by society, and it left him so lonely.

By seeing more of Yeong’s life in the series adaptation, it made it more obvious to me how many ways Yeong is choosing to be alone, and how his relationship with Mi Ae was an exception to that rule until it wasn’t. I noticed that Yeong moving in with Mi Ae coincided with the T-aras leave for their mandatory military service, and his breakup with Nam Gyu was after their sendoff party. By having more of Yeong's relationships depicted in these episodes, his loneliness when Mi Ae was gone to employee training and after they stopped talking was louder than in the novel, because we as an audience were aware that there were people he was choosing not to call. And it's worth noting that it was only when he had cut ties with Mi Ae that he turned back to Nam Gyu, only to close off that thread permanently too. It was an interesting pattern to me, that In the series, Yeong ends things with Nam Gyu after he loses other people in his life.

As @shinjikar1 pointed out Yeong's parallel losses of Nam Gyu and Mi Ae are about the decision to conform or not conform (and @troubled-mind pointed out how perfectly the song parallel really underscores this comparison, and the visuals of the abandoned marlboros and the ring do the same (h/t @conscbgb). H/t @lurkingshan for saying in our chats that specifically, Yeong's relationships with Mi Ae and Nam Gyu represent conforming to or rejecting a set heteronormative standard. Mi Ae chooses to conform and marry Jun Ho, but Yeong chooses not to commit to Nam Gyu, and so he loses both Nam Gyu and Mi Ae as a result. Yeong laments his choice after Nam Gyu's death, but as @my-rose-tinted-glasses wrote, that read to me more as romanticizing a relationship only after it's done than any realistic assessment of their relationship potential. And the bittersweet representation of Mi Ae’s relationship with Jun Ho and how the only moment she really looks happy and herself at her wedding is the moment she runs over to sing with Yeong (and how we can see by his reaction that Jun Ho has never actually seen his wife be herself) tells me that maybe the decision to conform may not be any less lonely. That being said, as @impala124 called out, just because a relationship ends that does not negate its importance in our lives, and I love how that theme which was so strong in the novel shines through in the series adaptation.

As Ben mentioned in his post linked above, I chatted with him about how I was not just thinking about the additions but also pondering the scenes that were left out of this adaptation (e.g. the STI scare scene), and whether the moment at the funeral when Yeong asks how Nam Gyu died might function in a similar way for the TV adaptation that the STI scene functioned in the novel–something that when we reflect back on later, in the context of Kylie, will get additional weight and meaning. I wondered, too, about the club scene when Yeong kissed that random guy so hard the guy pushed him off and checked if his lip was bleeding, and how different that was to Young freaking out at the taste of blood after kissing too hard in the novel. Again, that scene made me wonder whether this was before Kylie or after, and if Yeong kissing people too hard will be a theme in the series. Similarly, we didn’t get the coverage of his time in the military in the first two episodes, but we instead got a mention of the T-aras leaving for their military service, which leaves Yeong’s military service as a loud absence, again seeding the presence of Kylie in a different way to how it was foreshadowed in the novel.

Lastly, this is tangential to everything, but I found myself thinking about how Korean audiences might react differently to the Itaewon scenes and how different they must be to how things are now, post-Itaewon crush incident and how the club culture has changed as a result of that event and COVID-19. The kids apparently just don’t go to the clubs like this anymore. In that sense, these episodes feel a little like nostalgia for a generation and not just for youth in general.

#love in the big city #litbc book club #typed so that i can stop thinking it #long post #i loved these episodes can you tell?

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bengiyo · 13 days ago

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Love in the Big City Part 2: The Weight of Homophobia

I’ve been struggling to write about this week’s episodes. The way Yeong feels so worn down by the homophobia around him feels suffocating in a way that I haven’t had to deal with in a long time. I remain impressed with the way this adaptation brought this story to the screen, and genuinely like many of its changes.

The Internalized Homophobia Suffocates

The first thing I noticed in this section was how much quieter Yeong felt. He didn’t have the pep in his step that had him and Mi Ae skipping through grocery stores together. He wasn’t dancing in the street. He’s spending a great deal of time with his mom, and now dating a closet case. The weight of all of his pain and suffering has seemingly dimmed his light.

@impala124 summed up the comparison between the major relationships of Parts 1 and 2 well with “Part 1 was about the loneliness that comes with not conforming to societal expectations for Yeong and Part 2 was about the pitfalls of conforming to societal expectations and how it manifests in their actions towards others.” @shinjiikar1 further detailed how both his mom and Hyung hurt Yeong with their behaviors, particularly how Christianity plays into this. I find myself lingering with the sense of futility that the expectations of heteronormativity inflicts upon us. In Part 1, Yeong found himself unable to connect with Mi Ae and Nam Gyu because of their conformity to heteronormativity, and in this section both Yeong’s mom and Hyung try to enforce that heteronormativity on Yeong.

With his mom, she had him committed to a mental institution when she caught him with a boy. However she may feel about that now, it’s clear that she will not engage directly with his queer reality. She expressed relief when she didn’t get to meet Yeong Soo, and she will not read his books. She toes a line for herself by taking clipping of articles about her son, and letting him find that she saved a picture of him with his then boyfriend, but she will never say anything else aloud. Their relationship is difficult, and I found myself returning to the final scene with Chiron’s mom in Moonlight (2016) when we left them in the park.

With Hyung, I find myself thinking about @lurkingshan’s observations about the way episode 3 used familiar romance tropes to build up the relationship with hyung before crushing it in episode 4. It’s easy to see how the beginning of that romance with Hyung was so intriguing. Yeong was tired, lonely, and dealing with the slow death of his mother. He had removed the couch and TV from the apartment, making it clear he’s not doing any group fun in there anymore. It was inevitable that a closet case like Yeong Soo would let Yeong down, and I’m impressed that the show gained the same mortification in Yeong Soo writing that horrible article that I still feel about him sending Yeong an edit of his own goddamned diary.

I can’t find the comment now, but I think @wen-kexing-apologist commented about how both Umma and Hyung are obsessed with appearances. Despite her declining health, Umma tries to maintain her physical appearance, and performs Christian sacrifice by writing lines from the bible. Yeong Soo wearing ragged clothes, carries a back, speaks on philosophy, plays sports, and more to maintain his masculine appearance, and only wants to be with Yeong where others cannot see him. It’s so exhausting to be inside of the closet, and the paranoia it inflicts on you is mind numbing. I’m so glad that Yeong wasn’t actually alone with this man in this version. Finally, I keep thinking about the way @solitaryandwandering noted that the ideas of ownership play heavily with everyone’s actions in this section. So much of compulsory heteronormativity is about what others think we should be doing for them, and how they wield shame as a weapon.

Lastly, I want to comment that I appreciated the tasteful way the director chose to show Yeong’s darkest moment. I liked that we didn’t get close-ups or see his face, and I like that we cut away from the moment in his apartment to when he wakes up in the hospital.

The T-aras Remain The Best Change

I was surprised when the show introduced them so early in Part 1, but I’ve grown to love the T-aras so much in this show. They embody perfectly the kinds of gay friends I had in my 20s. We couldn’t step into each other’s lives to meddle and fix everything, but they’re always there for you. They also have great instincts.

It’s notable for me that they seemed iffy about Nam Gyu in Part 1. While much of that was likely them being catty about him being older, old-fashioned, and kind of a dork, they recognized that Yeong wasn’t actually into him that much. Nam Gyu was outside of the culture with them, and that builds in distance. In this part, they noticed immediately that they couldn’t tell if Yeong Soo was actually queer. That is a huge sign that Yeong Soo wasn’t going to be good for Yeong, because Yeong lives his life publicly. Yeong Soo doesn’t want people to know, and as such he would never vibe with the T-aras. It’s also notable for me that Yeong Soo never got to meet the T-aras, which at least Nam Gyu did.

Finally, this show made me sob openly when they rushed to the hospital and fought with staff to get to their friend. Only family is allowed to be in the room, but they would not let their friend go without him knowing that they were there. It’s so scary when you’re in the community because of how death stalks us, and I love this change to the story. The version of Young we get in the book is so unwell that he doesn’t think about all of these people around him, and I love this version of the story showing that he was loved. That his friends cared about him. When he flashed that heart sign to them and they answered back, I cried. I’m crying now even as I think about that moment. Queer friendship is so important to me, and I really love the way the adaptation expanded the role of the T-aras.

Anticipating Gyu-ho

I find myself feeling a small sense of dread about Gyu-ho’s entry into the story. We’ve seen two pairs of relationships in Yeong’s life fail because of compulsory heteronormativity, and I just know that seeing Yeong be unable to build something long-term with Gyu-ho on screen will devastate me. The losses and wounds Yeong has taken from all of the previous history will seep into his relationship with Gyu-ho, and it’s not going to be pretty.

#Ben watches #Ben writes #love in the big city #litbc book club #korean bl #lgbt tv

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lurkingshan · 1 month ago

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Love in the Big City Book Club: Drama Live Watch

Hello hello book clubbers! We are only two weeks out from the start of the live airing of the Love in the Big City live action drama. Soon we will see Young's story in all its messy glory on our screens. Here's what we know about the structure of the show:

Sang Young Park was involved in adapting the screenplay for the show (as opposed to the film, in which he was not involved)

The drama is structured in four parts, just like the book, with a different director for each part doing two episodes each

All of Young's important love interests are present in the story, with some additions as well

This show is gonna be so fucking queer, y'all

What we don't know yet:

The exact airing schedule (it starts Monday, October 21st, but we don't yet know if it will air one or two episodes weekly)

Where international fans can watch (it will air on TVING in Korea, and I am hoping we will have an international platform confirmed next week)

That said, here's the plan for book club: Mondays will be for regular show viewing. On the Tuesday after each set of two episodes airs (either weekly or every other week, depending on the final airing schedule), I will post book club specific discussion questions with an assist from @bengiyo and invite folks to post responses or other discussion through the week. We'll repost the original questions from that part of the book, plus new ones based on the drama adaptation. As always, book clubbers are invited to respond to any, all, or none of them; they're just there to prompt thinking and discussion. We'll tag all book club relevant posts with [#litbc book club].

I am including everyone from the original tag list below the cut, and will do so for all the discussion posts. If you want to be removed, or if you're not on this list but want to be added, just reply to this post to let me know. I'm so excited to watch this show with all of you!

@becomingabeing @belladonna-and-the-sweetpeas @blalltheway @elimstillnotgarak

@colourme-feral @doyou000me @dramacraycray @dylogpenchester @fiction-is-queer

@hyeoni-comb @littleragondin @literally-a-five-headed-dragon @loveable-sea-lemon @my-rose-tinted-glasses

@neuroticbookworm @poetry-protest-pornography @profiterole-reads @serfergs @starryalpacasstuff

@stuffnonsenseandotherthings @thewayofsubtext @troubled-mind @twig-tea @wen-kexing-apologist

#litbc book club #love in the big city #kdrama #korean bl

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ineffable-opinions · 6 months ago

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"Top", "Bottom" Discussion in Unknown ep. 12

The Office Gossip Scene

[Edited on 10th May; changes under clarification headings]

Now that the Unknown has resurrected the conversation about gong shou, let’s talk about it. The what and the why, so to say. Thank you @1serotonindeficientgirl (whose post inspired mine).

I welcome critiques and corrections. So, please feel free to do so.

Scenes and subtitles

The discussion in the episode starts with Wei Qian’s staff gossiping about his relationship with Wei ZhiYuan. One of the staff members comments that Wei Qian is like a little lamb (小绵羊) when it comes to his little brother:

只要遇到他弟弟就像小绵羊

Someone replies with the following idiom:

羊入虎口

(Literally: “a sheep enters a tiger's mouth”)

It means to enter a dangerous situation where one will certainly suffer [Source: Wiktionary].

The female employee (who witnessed their kiss) asks San Pang:

三胖哥谁是羊谁是虎啊 - Who is the lamb (羊; sheep) and who is the tiger (虎)?

This has some employees confused and they ask for an explanation. They receive the following reply:

就是攻跟受的差别啊 – [it means] between them, who is gong and who is shou?

One of the staff members repeats the unfamiliar terms:

攻受 – gong shou

and the fu-nu (腐女; fujoshi) offers an explanation:

好啦姊姊教你们 – let this elder sis explain

老虎看到羊会 – the tiger upon seeing the lamb…

Before she can complete her explanation, Wei Qian moves into the scene accompanied by the growl of a big cat. The gossipers disband.

In the end our fu-nu expresses their support for Wei Qian’s relationship with Wei ZhiYuan. Before she runs off, she throws him the question:

你们谁是攻谁是受啦 – between the two of you, who is gong and who is shou?

In the next shot Wei Qian is alone. He flexes his muscles and comments:

很明显吧 - It's obvious, isn't it?

[END OF SCENE]

Everyone at that office seems pretty close. The staff calls Wei “Qian ge” 谦哥 (first name + brother) and not as “Mr. Wei” (as the English subtitles suggests). Looks like Lao Xiong (emphasis on Lao = old) is the only one who clearly disapproves of such gossipmongering.

Notice how the terms gong and shou were translated directly into top and bottom in English subtitles. While that’s technically correct, there’s some nuance missing.

While there are tongzhi (同志;queer) people who use the terms gong and shou, these are not the most popular terms for top and bottom in the tongzhi community. This series specifically uses the terms gong (攻) and shou (受). Why? We’ll get to that in a minute.

In a BL, being shou means that character is the bottom in that particular ship. That character could be top, bottom, versatile or neither in another ship. A character is a bottom (as we use the term in English) only when that character is an absolute shou (sou uke in Japanese). An absolute shou is invariably shou. No matter which ship he becomes part of and no matter who he is paired with, he will be the shou. Similar difference exists between the terms “top” and “gong”.

English subtitles use ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ from the get-go. There is no need to explain what those terms mean. But that’s not the case with gong shou – only 腐 (fu) people (BL fans) really knows what those terms really mean and thus warrants explanation.

Clarification

[Edited. Thank you @abstractelysium and @wen-kexing-apologist for contributing to the conversation.]

As noted in the convo, Wei Qian is pretty ferocious in the office and is only gentle when it comes to Wei ZhiYuan. So, it is normal that gossiping irrespective of topic would end as soon as he arrives. Also, I think Wei Qian didn’t get what gong shou means other than allusion to tiger and lamb. The original language dialogues don’t make it clear that gong and shou means top and bottom (in a ship). [The English subs gives off that impression since gong and shou were simply translated.] Moreover, those terms are danmei literacies that has entered dictionaries but not necessarily public knowledge.

It is like an insider joke for fu-people made possible by Wei Qian’s ignorance. That wouldn’t have worked on Wei ZhiYuan who read danmei while growing up. That wouldn’t have worked if the fu nu (fujoshi) stuck around to explain what that means.

Usually in such conversations in BL, fu-people are shown to be mistaken: they either mess up the ship/dynamic (Love By Chance 1) or the character(s) in the ship deliberately trick them (Counter Attack). It is almost always played out with seme/gong’s approval in BL - not sure if that dynamic between fu-people & seme aka gong character ever appeared in any live-action dynamic. The trigger of this scene is Wei ZhiYuan’s deliberate choice of actions: PDA, kiss in the office right in front of a staff member.

BL literacies

BL is a media genre in itself with different sub-genres, genre conventions and classic works. It sure has a lot of overlap with other genres:

Romance as well as GL – they coevolved. They share mothers and other ancestors.

Queer – Is it really a genre? Even if one were to ignore queer as method in academia, it is still so complex.

Let me quote Taiwanese tongzhi author Chiang-Sheng Kuo:

… what exactly is queer literature? Is it queer literature if queer people like to read it, or is it only queer literature if there are queer characters in the books? Or is it an appendage of the queer movement? If a queer author writes a book without queer characters, does that represent a certain aspect of queer culture?

(You can find the whole interview here.)

Just as danmei (耽美; Chinese BL) has its roots in Japanese BL, so is gong (攻) and shou (受) from seme (攻め) uke (受け).

gong shou aka seme uke dynamics

Mother of BL, Mori Mari, didn’t come up with it, nor did her father Mori Ogai. Both she and her father, among the other dozen tanbi (耽美; same writing as danmei but different readings cause different languages, and different meanings cause different cultures) authors inherited it from authors before them who wrote on contemporaneous and historic Japanese male androphilia.

Spring Pastimes. Miyagawa Isshō, c. 1750 | seme uke dynamics in nanshoku pre-dates BL by hundreds of years.

While there is no dearth of riba (versatile) characters in BL, seme uke dynamics is:

a genre specialty. There are similar words in use in GL as well.

an enduring connection to the past of where BL was born.

remnants of a particular model of queerness; an alternative to LGBTQIA+ form of queerness.

What’s there in the scene

There is something hidden in the euphemistic explanation. On the face of it tiger devouring a lamb would be allusion to tiger gong devouring (topping) lamb shou.

But then tiger is a big cat and lamb is a herbivore. Neko (ネコ), the Japanese queer term for “bottom” means cat (etymology is obscure with this one). The term herbivore (草食) when used to describe a man means that man is masculine in a non-hegemonic way. In the series, Wei Qian embodies the hegemonic masculinity while Wei ZhiYuan is a quintessential grass-eater.

So, the description of lamb being devoured by a tiger would not be associated as simply as with the terms gong and shou especially when it comes from Taiwan which has been historically more connected to Japanese BL than any other BL producers (Sinophone or otherwise). This connection was highlighted during 魏之远 Wei ZhiYuan's naming scene where Le Ge used the borrowed Japanese possessive particle (の; no).

の = 之 (zhī)

The big cat sound effect for Wei Qian in particular adds to this. Wei Qian’s character is best described as a queen shou.

女王受 Queen shou: A shou who is as proud as a queen, and would devour gong. (source)

Wei Qian and Wei ZhiYuan’s ship is best described by Priest (the author of Da Ge, source novel of Unknown):

经典款毒舌女王和屁颠屁颠的忠犬组合 – paring of a classic, sharp-tongued queen and a tail-wagging loyal dog.

BL literacies & Affective learning

BL kind of has its own language (with words like gong shou), which fans use to share ideas and feelings. This secret language is what academics call ‘literacies.’ BL fans are all in on this and have their own ‘ways of behaving, interacting, valuing, thinking, believing, speaking, and often reading and writing’. Through ‘various visual, conceptual and textual literacies’, BL fans weave ‘an intertextual database of narrative and visual tropes which readers draw upon to interpret BL’. BL literacies is learnt through ‘affective hermeneutics – a set way of gaining knowledge through feelings.’ Audience learn BL literacies from BL works ‘which eventually leads to their active engagement’ with other BL fans. (source; Kristine Michelle L. Santos explains it in the context of Japanese BL but it applies to all BL media irrespective of where it is from.)

That scene in Unknown was set up to familiarize audience with BL literacies – not only those specific words but also the larger practice of imagining character pairing and indulging in that imagination. This is evident from the overall jubilant tone of the scene and the camera work. It is a celebration of moe. That is why we have a character who is not only a fu-nu but also willing to be openly fu-nu in that setting, sharing BL literacies and her colleagues interested to learn.

For other examples, check out Thomas Baudinette’s book Boys Love Media in Thailand: Celebrity, Fans, and Transnational Asian Queer Popular Culture. He has a chapter dedicated to explaining how genre conventions were taught to the early audience of Thai BL through similar scenes.

Why must they do this? Why break the fourth wall like this? To get more people interested in the intricacies of BL and to get them to participate in the culture. BL is created by fu-people and BL literacies are their tools and source of joy. BL must draw in more people to keep BL culture going. Commercialized BL we have today is the result of an affective culture formed over the years. It is built on years of labor of authors and their audience. I mean, look at the Unknown. This BL employs the well-developed Loyal Dog gong x Queen shou dynamics. Apart from that which the series took from the novel, it also drew upon other common BL beats to tease the relationship between Dr. Lin and his senior.

Teaching BL literacies is political. When Mainland Chinese government gets dangai productions to change names and relationships of characters (among other things), it is to prevent live-action audience from discovering BL as a genre with it disruptive potential. It is not only character's names and relationships that are changed. There are entire sub-genres of danmei (such as 高干) that got wiped out by censorship.

When a Taiwanese BL not only retains the character names & relationships and shows relatively explicit intimate scenes but also actively promotes BL literacies, it is an act of resistance. Discussion of gong shou, being genre specialty, manages to do so. Interestingly, they are doing it in an adaptation of a novel by Priest who has a particular reputation with self-censorship. That scene is not part of the source novel.

Heterosexual & gong shou

Association of bottom with the feminine (female or otherwise) has its roots in medicalization (and pathologization) of homosexuality in the west (such as through theories by scientists and doctors like Richard von Krafft-Ebing). This “knowledge” subsequently spread across the globe and was adopted to varying degrees and forms.

Moreover, the terms gong and shou applies to heterosexual pairing too.

BG (boy girl) ships have male gong and female shou

GB (girl boy) ships have female gong and male shou. [If this is interesting unfamiliar territory, check out the series Dong Lan Xue (2023).]

Moreover, if one is willing to look beyond LGBTQIA+ form of queerness (which is born and brought up in America), one can see other queer possibilities. For example, Kothi-Panthi queerness in South Asia which is characterized by explicit presentation of top bottom dynamics. There are very many similar forms of queerness in other parts of Global South.

In many cultures, sexuality doesn’t inform identity but sexual preference does. That’s why is you are to ask a kothi-panthi couple which one of you is the bottom, the kothi would tell you without hesitation: “I am.” Might even asked you in turn, “Couldn’t you tell?” For them, sexual preference (being kothi) rather than sexual orientation takes center stage. This is the inverse of how LGBTQIA+ form of queerness looks at it. While LGBTQIA+ model of queerness focuses on sexual orientation (being pan, ace, gay, etc.) as something that can be freely discussed but sexual preference (top, bottom, versatile, side, etc.) is considered private.

*Just to be clear, “kothi” is a term of self-identification. It means that the person is a bottom. Panthi is not self-identification. That’s how kothi address the men who top them.

While thanks to westernization LGBTQIA+ form of queerness enjoys more visibility, I think it is better to consider it as one type of queerness rather than the only model of queerness. Gong shou dynamics doesn’t fit into LGBTQIA+ form of queerness because it comes from another, much-older nanshoku model of queerness that made its way into Japan from China, hundreds of years ago. Friction between different models of queerness is common where ever they interact. In 1970s, Japan was witness to public debates between a younger, westernized Japanese queer activist Itō Satoru and other Japanese queer activists such as Fushimi Noriaki and Tōgō Ken who were rooted in indigenous tradition of male-male sexuality.

[Itō Satoru’s] insistence on the necessity of adopting western models of gay identity and coming out have brought him into conflict with other activists such as Fushimi Noriaki and veteran campaigner Tōgō Ken.

Interpretation and Orientalism: Outing Japan's Sexual Minorities to the English-Speaking World by Mark McLelland

Clarification

[Edited. Thank you @wen-kexing-apologist for contributing to the conversation.]

Under the LGBTQ+ model of queerness, it maybe considered inappropriate to have conversation about “top” “bottom”, especially in the office, going as far as to ask that to Qian ge. From that perspective, the BL audience (especially those who are unfamiliar with the terms gong and shou) are fair in their assessment of that scene being out of place or outright offensive.

I think things might have been a bit different if the subtitles retained the terms gong shou instead of “top” “bottom” since they aren’t exactly the same thing. That would have had the desired effect (of introducing BL literacies - gong shou in the context of 强强 (strong gong x strong shou) pairing) without unintended consequence.

What is considered rude under the LGBTQ+ framework is an essential part of fu culture. It is like addressing Wei Qian as just Qian – that could be considered rude in the original language but pretty normal in English. Different cultures, different norms, so to speak. It is only polite to be mindful of the cultural differences and avoid discussing about sexual preference where it is considered inappropriate.

As for the normalization of fu culture (especially discussions of gong shou), in my opinion the didactic scope of Unknown is undermined by the very fact that it is primarily a gǔkē danmei (via adoption (收养)) with tongyangxi vibes (highlighted multiple times by San Pang in the novel) associated with Wei ZhiYuan.

Somehow fu-culture gets judged by those who consume products of that culture. Everyone is happy with fu-cultural products as long as fu-people don't discuss who is gong and who is shou.

Why are fu-culture and BL always judged based on a culturally alien lgbtq+ form of queerness? Why must BL be arm-twisted to fit into norms of lgbtq+ form of queerness just because that is the most mainstream form of queerness?

That’s not much a conclusion but this is already so long. I really hope it gives you something to think about.

If you are interested, here's more.

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sirenofthegreenbanks · 7 months ago

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i knew that wkx is callous and cruel in guzhu mode but these past few days i spent time seeing it in slowmotion because im gathering material for my wip. combing through these scenes with wkx and the ghost valley women is really tough. hes so mean, hes such an asshole, hes such a jerk. and its so intriguing and gutpunching because these are moments when he starts out alone, drinking or being tended to by a servant, introspective. lqq or lfm or gu xiang join him, and theyre in an entirely different mood, and they need something from him in some way. theyre putting their own vulnerability on display, theyre reaching out a hand to him. and he ,, doesnt handle it well.

there is this scene with lfm when they share a moment of genuine connection and tell each other of their thoughts and intentions. and even though wkx is more open here, even though this is after he has been domesticated by being around his a-xu and looking after zcl, a ghost remembering being human, and even though hes telling lfm of his original plan for the jianghu in order to make her understand his growth, that he has seen the error of his ways, it still shakes her up, and his willingness to listen to her advise doesnt seem enough to smooth things over so fast.

i dont know where im going with this, just that wkx has this pattern in how he behaves around others who have the unfortunate luck to be listening to him, and it transitions from different shades of distrust and disbelief to open disgust and bitterness, and it always has him fall into cussing out the people in power who hurt him, and it never fails to take a toll on those listening. hes not emotionally available when like this, and you can see how hard it is for those around to reach him

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coolshadowtwins · 6 months ago

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I love the ways fanfiction gets around the problem of nicknames.

In canon, Zhou Zishu introduces himself under a fake name, Zhou Xu, so Wen Kexing calls him A-Xu for the rest of the series, even after learning that not actually his name. There’s so many Word Of Honor fanfics where it wouldn’t make sense for Zhou Zishu to use a fake name tho- be it a modern au, or just an au where he has nothing to hide- and then the author has to figure out what WKX is calling him now. A-Shu? It’s said the same, but does it work when you read it? Or do you make up a reason for the nickname?

There was one fanfic that I can’t remember anything else about where ZZS introduces himself with his actual name, and WKX is just like, “Hm…. I hear you, I do. But you’re so bendy that you remind me of catkins, so I’m just going to call you A-Xu!” (Xu is written with the character for catkins, for reference)

And don’t get me started with SVSSS lol. Every story where SY isn’t SQQ for whatever reason gets it’s own justification of why Binghe calls him Shizun. Off the top of my head, these range from “You have taught me so much more than my actual Shizun(SJ)” and “Wow, you taught me two (2) facts, and I think you’re neat. Shizun it is!”

And then there’s the modern ones where Shizun absolutely doesn’t make sense, since I’m pretty sure it’s an older term. A lot of fics get around this by having Binghe call him “laoshi”, meaning teacher, while some of them just go, “Yeah, Binghe just decided one day that SY is Shizun, even though they are the same age in this au, and no one is able to get him to stop”.

As I write these out, I’m realizing that most of the Shizun problem is apparently just solved by Binghe deciding, “Hm… That one is Shizun shaped.”

In the same vein, Shang Qinghua calling MBJ “My King”, even in modern aus. Because what else would he call him??? His name???? Never. This one is funny, because unless MBJ is still royalty somehow, the authors I’ve read never addressed this. SQH just shows up one chapter, calling this random guy he may or may not be dating “My King”, and then leaving SY to his own devices with no explanation lol

Lesser issue is shixiong and Shidi. Mostly YQY? Because what should he call SJ other than Shen-Shidi, or Qingqiu-Shidi, when SJ inevitably yells at him for being called Xiao Jiu? This one does come up less, because of most modern aus I’ve read focused on Bingqiu, and so Qijiu were having a much better time than canon in the background, if they were even brought up lol

What are your stories about nicknames in fanfic lol

#svsss #shen qingqiu #shen yuan #shen jiu #luo binghe #yue qingyuan #shang qinghua #mobei jun #word of honor #zhou zishu #wen kexing #fanfic

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he-is-lightning-in-a-bottle · 6 months ago

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Unknown - Ep 11 - That Scene

The opening scene of episode 11 landed differently for me than it did for others. I was going to just keep it to myself since I have a minority opinion, but when I rewatched it last night I fell even more in love with it!

The structure!! It's so good! Let me explain.

At the bottom of the stairs, Qian hesitates. He still hasn't made up his mind.

Yuan says "Do you still not get it?" He knows what Qian is feeling, even if Qian hasn't figured it out yet. So he says what he wants very clearly.

Yuan asks for permission to do 4 things:

1. Be more than just Qian's brother.

2. Be who Qian relies on when he's down.

3. Be someone Qian can talk to about anything.

4. Be with Qian for the rest of his life.

Before Qian answers, he revisits 4 sets of memories, each set answering one of Yuan's questions with a resounding YES.

After each affirmative answer, it cuts back to the sex scene to communicate that THIS is the culmination of all those yesses.

In other words, there are 4 direct questions and 4 groups of memories that hold the answers to those questions, 4 times those memories scream the answer is YES, and 4 cuts to a bit of sex.

Let's look at the groups of memories.

1. He thinks back to Yuan's words in ep 9. Does he not want Yuan? Or does he not DARE to want Yuan? And he remembers all the times he felt desire for Yuan, but suppressed it. Can he be more than just Yuan's brother? Yes.

2. He thinks back to Yuan consistently being someone Qian can rely on, all through his childhood until now. "If the world falls down, we'll hold it up together." "You won't be alone." "I like being around you." Yuan genuinely likes being around Qian and has never wanted to leave him. He's shown his commitment to Qian time and time again. Can Qian rely on Yuan when he's down? Yes.

3. He remembers how long and hard Yuan suffered while enduring one-sided love, and that Yuan chose to suffer in quiet for years rather than confess to Qian about it. But Qian knew Yuan was suffering that whole time and hated it. It broke Qian's heart to see how hard it was for Yuan. If he did likewise and didn't talk about things, he'd also break the heart of the person who loves him because of his silence. Yuan laid himself bare and told Qian everything. Can Qian reciprocate and tell Yuan about everything in his life, even the hard things? Yes.

4. He thinks about how Yuan has ALREADY built his entire life around Qian. "I can sum up my life in two words: Wei Qian." Memories of Yuan come like a flood, rapidly gaining momentum. Yuan has already been with Qian for most of his life, and will NOT STOP. Qian can't imagine a life without Yuan. So can Yuan be with Qian for the rest of his life? Yes.

Qian nods and says his answer aloud: You can. And then they kiss.

The sex is not the point. It's the culmination. It's all the yesses stacked on top each other until they break the last of Qian's walls. By cutting the sex so it only exists between each resounding YES, they've made it less about the action of it and more about Qian realizing that YES, they're ALREADY in love and unalterably committed to each other. Why not give in to his physical desires when the rest is so clear?

Others watched this and saw a sex scene interrupted by cumbersome flashbacks. I watched this and saw a dramatic feelings realization interrupted by snippets of quite lovely sex that drove those feelings home.

A final note: It's probably because I'm demisexual, but I am frequently unmoved by sex scenes, especially when they do not advance the plot or the character development. This onscreen scene moved me. It hit the right emotional note. It was focused primarily on Qian's pov (his face is the one the camera is focusing on). And it was artfully done, instead of merely being titillating.

I'm tagging a few people who I recall talking about this in their posts, but it's been a couple of weeks so forgive me if I leave someone out or misremember. @absolutebl @lurkingshan @bengiyo @wen-kexing-apologist @wanderlust-in-my-soul @twig-tea

#unknown #unknown the series #asian gay dramas #taiwanese bl

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syrena-del-mar · 10 months ago

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Dead Friend Forever Is More Than Just A 90s Slasher Film Imitation

Oh man, I went in thinking I would just get a whole lot of gore and murder, and instead I'm getting a buttload of social class distinction, parental issues, mental health crises, organized crime, and a highly-likely revenge plot line.

The thing about Dead Friend Forever is that it starts unassuming, almost like an copy of all other teen slashers from the 90s. A group of friends, up in a cabin and suspects to a potential murder, become hunted one-by-one. A cliche slasher plot if I ever heard one. Until it’s not. This show is taking up a very big corner of my brain, so I’m going to delve deeper into it.

If you haven't watched episode 6 yet, spoilers up ahead.

Pulling inspiration from 90s slasher re-inventor, Scream

The first four episodes really set up the expectation that DFF was going to be another slasher, seemingly particularly influenced by Scream (1996). Scream was a turning point for slasher movies, signaling a shift in from the movies of the 80s to that of the 90s. It was the first of many movies to allow for the characters to be self-aware of what genre they're working in, where the characters knew of the slasher-movie tropes and attempted to do everything right to survive. Scream is also the first slasher to truly humanize the killers, and I don't mean by making them empathetic, but rather the killers were human, so they made human mistakes. Prior to Scream, the antagonists in slasher films were usually this supernatural villain that was just murder-hungry. But in Scream, the killers are all just regular people and would often make mistakes on their way to kill the protagonists, like a normal human would. It's why Scream was scary, the killer could be anyone, it wasn't this supernatural being. And even when you're making the right choices to escape, you still end up dead.

In Dead Friend Forever, we're getting so many of the same tropes that Scream had subverted. The group is working understanding exactly what they're facing; Fluke warning to not pull out the stake inside Por, Top wanting to split up in the temple while Phee, Jin and Tan veto against it expressly stating it would be like the horror movies, White not wanting to be left behind in the cabin. They all know what they shouldn't be doing while there is a killer on the loose. Also, it's why there's these funny little moments of the killer in DFF (i.e. having to steal the motorcycle to get back to the cabin). I'm not completely convinced that there isn't any paranormal activity or at least some type hallucinogen-component at play, but the way the killer acts is very human-like. Not to mention the parallel of Barcode (arguably the most popular actor in the show) getting slashed in the first minute of the show, eerily similar to how in the opening scene of Scream, Drew Barrymore (the most well-known of the cast) gets killed immediately.

The Benefits of Series Format versus Movie Format

The series format is where I think Dead Friend Forever is really shining the most. @wen-kexing-apologist made an awesome post on the directorial direction this show is taking, particularly in how since the first four episodes we have very little context as to why the killings are occurring or even the state of everyone's relationship, we're freely able to form opinions on each character. Similarly, prior to getting to know what happened to Non, I also thought Tee was the better one of the group. But here we are, two episodes later and I find him to be the most detestable of the bunch (which says something, when Por and Top are competing in this category).

We're seeing and experiencing the absolute hell that this friend group had actively made (sans Jin and Fluke that suffer from the bystander effect) Non's life out to be. In a regular slasher movie, especially ones that model themselves after Scream, we find out why the Killer is doing what he's doing to the victims in the last quarter of the movie, but the emotional value is a little skewed. The little amount of time we spend learning about what the victims did to the Killer usually still leaves you feeling at least a smidge of pity for the victims and some joy that the Final Girl made it. Here, the mass consensus is that each and every one of them should die.

And it comes back to the luxury of spending several episodes in a flashback to what lead up to the killings after the game of cat-and-mouse has begun. We're introduced to Non as an outsider, where everyone, but Jin, has already formed a bad opinion of Non. They already have a brutal nickname for him (read @forkaround's awesome analysis on the term 'Greasy'). They already established that he's an outsider in the classroom, but they make an active point of only referring to him as 'Greasy' and Non just accepts it. We see the friend group frame him, causing him to spiral twice to point of suicide, proceed to prey on him into a money laundering scheme, get him caught in a criminal investigation, all while already undergoing mental health treatment. We're given that time to know and see the pain that Non is caused, the manipulation that he is put under, and ultimately the devastation that they've caused.

Dead Friends Forever is more than just another teen slasher, because it has time. And it's using its time wisely, giving us bits and pieces of information in the beginning before delving into something more sinister than the killer on the loose, the original five. Run-of-the-mill bullying has turned into framing, assault and other criminal activity, even murder. And yet, while Non is the one that has disappeared (or died), the other five have been able to make a life for themselves without suffering any of the consequences. It's showing exactly what they have done to deserve everything that is coming to them.

Final Thoughts

Man, Be on Cloud is truly blowing it out of the water with this show. I'm actually a bit sad that it's only barely starting to get the recognition that it deserves, because in my opinion, it's just that good, BUT I also understand why it's had a sleepy start. It's in an place, a BL in one sense, but not exactly a BL in any other. I've said it before, but no matter what you think of BOC as a management company, the stories that they tell are unique and they have the artists that are competent enough to deliver. Be on Cloud has, allegedly, allowed the writers take the reign on the show, even if this means messing with the couples, so even more chaos is going to occur. This is, frankly, exciting to see and experience the story as they want it to be told.

I said this when I first saw Barcode in KinnPorsche deliver that heartbreaking cry, that boy knows how to cry. He was a newbie and his stole that scene. Now this is his third show under his belt and his acting chops only continue to improve, I truly can't wait to see what more he is able to do here in Dead Friend Forever. I love that Sammon is also enjoying what Barcode has able to bring forth in Non and that all her worries have been eased. I truly think that Barcode is going to have an incredible career ahead of him, whether in music or in acting.

Ta, on the other hand, also deserves his share of accolades. I wasn't sure of how to read to Phee in the first four episodes, but with the information that episode 6 has given us? The picture has cleared significantly and now, having rewatched his scenes, everything makes sense on why he seemed to be conniving. Episode 6 had some of the strongest performances and yet the biggest gasp I made was in the last minute. The singular tear rolling down Phee's cheek after having to perform the two-finger method, to have Non throw up the pills, and holding him in his arms? Quite literally jaw-dropping.

Sammon has a strong repertoire of shows, so I have complete faith that she knows what she's doing for Dead Friend Forever. I hope this becomes as much of a cult favorite, much like Manner of Death and Triage.

Anyways if you need me, I'll probably be stuck thinking about PheeNon for the next week until episode 7 airs.

#dead friend forever #dead friend forever the series #dead friend forever meta #dff meta #dff the series #barcode tinnasit #ta nannakun #copper phuriwat #pheenon #be on cloud #pheejin #tabarcode #boc actors #thai bl #thai bl meta #bl meta #steph rambles

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welcometothejianghu · 2 months ago

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Welcome to another round of W2 Tells You What You Should See, where W2 (me) tries to sell you (you) on something you should be watching. Today's choice: ก่อนดอกไม้…บาน / 花开有时颓靡无声 / Meet You at the Blossom

Meet You at the Blossom is a 2024 joint Thai/Chinese adaptation of a Chinese danmei novel. Marketing itself as an "uncensored BL," it tells the love story of the world's dumbest boy and the absolute psychopath he has the (mis)fortune to fall for.

Note that "uncensored" doesn't mean you're going to see somebody's little blossom or anything like that. It just means that the love story is textual and canonical. These boys declare their love for one another. They hold hands. They smooch. They have soft, unfocused scenes where one of them climbs on top of the other and then everything fades to black. They are two boys and they are in love ... and sure, one of them thinks the other is a girl for longer than is probably reasonable, but what relationship doesn't have its share of misunderstandings?

This twelve-episode drama is a bodice-ripping melodrama with a bottom-barrel Harlequin novel plot. It is the most soap opera I've seen something that isn't a soap opera be. If you are the kind of person who enjoys this sort of thing, you are absolutely going to enjoy this sort of thing. If you're not ... well, it might still hook you anyway. Here's five reasons I think you should watch it.

1. Perfect toxic yaoi sludge

Do you only consume media about healthy relationships between consenting equals, where people have conversations and are always honest about their feelings? Great. Turn this off immediately.

Meet You at the Blossom is the show for people who yearn for the days of Kizuna. People who still think longingly about Zetsuai 1989. People who will not be convinced that Tokyo Babylon is anything but peak romance. People who have seen Gravitation more than once and of their own volition. People who have looked the trashiest yaoi out there dead in the eye and shouted BRING ME MORE.

I keep using the word "yaoi" because that's what it is. It's a gay relationship begun under false premises, consummated under sketchy circumstances, longed for despite serious reasons to stay broken up, and then all somehow worked out in the end. I have described the main pairing as, what if Wen Kexing fell in love with a labradoodle? Carried out to its logical conclusion, this relationship would be good for neither Wen Kexing nor the labradoodle. But for the purposes of a catastrophically badly paced twelve-episode series, it's all the dramatic fuel you need.

Nothing about their relationship is ever reliably safe, sane, or consensual -- and that's the fun of it! Look, the first time they fuck (in episode two!) is under the influence of sex pollen, and they come out the other side of it awkward but definitely not traumatized. I've seen people say they wish the show had treated the noncon bits with more gravity, which ... look, there's no noncon here. Actual noncon-wanters would be sorely disappointed by what this show offers. There's some impaired judgment and overblown irrational jealousy and aggressively pinning one's very drunk partner to the bed, but it's that kind of perfectly okay force fantasy that works in fiction, because in fiction everyone's okay with it. You know they're okay with it. The writer wrote it so they're okay with it. Everybody is getting exactly what they want.

This is a drama about people having Big Feelings that would be terrifying in real life, but are fun as hell onscreen. So you are promising me right now that if you watch this, you will not overthink it, because overthinking this show is like being that raccoon that failed at washing a piece of cotton candy. Don't try to clean up this delicate sugary mess. Eat it dirty.

2. Some fascinating faces

This is going to sound like such a backhanded compliment, but I swear it's not: There are some really interesting-looking people in this show! I can't swear this is because of the Thai production elements, but I have to assume that the different cultural beauty standards at work at least somewhat influenced the casting choices.

A thing about c-dramas is, the majority of the under-40 male actors look like their base model came off of one of the dozen or so approved production lines at the Pretty Boy Factory. While I enjoy these production lines, combine it with my natural touch of faceblindness, and I've had some hilarious moments where I have been certain two characters were played the same person, when they were in fact very much not.

This show is full of a bunch of actors you'd be hard-pressed to mistake for anyone else. There's like one guy who's conventionally c-drama handsome, while everyone else brings a lot more variety to the table than you tend to find in productions like this.

Li Le, when he's all done up as Zongzheng Huaien, is strikingly beautiful in a way that reminds me of old film starlets who maybe should've stopped about one nose job ago. I've seen pictures of him when he's dressed like a regular modern boy, and he's lovely, sure. But with the hair and the outfits and the constant haughty ice-cold stares he's leveling at people, the final look is stunning. And then he smiles and it's just the cutest goofy grin! Anyway, there's a whole big deal about Huaien's parentage, when the obvious answer is that the fey folk dropped him off and said, good luck with this one.

Meanwhile, Wang Yunkai, who plays Jin Xiaobao, has perfectly plump, kissable lips and a wide, soft nose that together with his giant eyes give him the perfect air of an innocent bisexual dumbass currently in the process of figuring out the whole "bisexual" part. He's so cute and cuddleable that you feel extra-bad when you see him in pain, which works for the show, because he spends a lot of the back half of the series being in both emotional and physical pain, as per conventions of the genre.

As for the rest of the cast, there's...

store-brand Huang Youming!

pouty Thai princess!

slimy kite dude and his terrible 'stache!

these precious dipshits!

...and a couple guys I just straight-up can't find pictures of, even though they're important named characters, because this may be the first thing they've been in? Look, this is not a show of well-known names, nor is it something that's probably to launch any careers to prominence. I'm not even going to say this is a show where everybody looks like everyday average people, because no! They obviously do not! They are very attractive people! They are just attractive according to a set of criteria you do not often see on Chinese television, and I think that's great.

3. You don't have to say NO HOMO every time you touch another dude

Really, truly, the greatest thing about an overtly BL property is how touchy men can be -- and not even the romantic pairings! Loyal servants get to hug their masters! Coworkers get to fall asleep in a two-man puppy pile! Childhood besties get to wrap comforting arms around one another! Brothers in arms get to catch their fallen comrades! Friends get to tearfully bid farewell to one another before leaving on journeys! Cousins get to embrace to the point one of the cousins really wishes they would stop!

Mostly it's that once you've removed the fear that gay shit might get your show censored, you can have your male characters engage in a perfectly regular amount of human physical contact.

Like, one of my favorite funny things about c-dramas is the amount of wrist-gripping that happens, as though dragging someone else along by their wrist is a real-life thing that happens often, or even at all. It's the perfect example of how paranoia about depicting physical intimacy leads to substitutes that are just bizarre. We can't possibly have these two people hold hands! So let's make up another gesture and pretend it's a thing people do voluntarily and (more importantly) heterosexually!

But when you've already outright put the YEP, IT'S GAY sign on your production, that paranoia vanishes. What are the censors going to do, get mad at the part where two friends are sleeping tangled up with one another? Three minutes ago there was a scene where one guy kissed another on the mouth! Let those boys snooze!

Alas that the scenes that are supposed to be sexy come across as mostly awkward -- largely because those two leads don't really seem all that keen on sticking their tongues down each other's throats, which, you know, I get; it'd be weird if I had to kiss my coworkers. But what they are good at is snuggling. I almost wish -- and keep in mind this is me saying this -- they'd cut the scenes that were trying to be horny and leaned more into the tender, playful moments they get together. Those are the ones that made me squeal happily and kick my little feet.

I have to mention this one: There is a little cheek kiss that I absolutely love. (I can't find a screencap of it, and my own attempts at screenshotting it were hilariously unproductive, but it gets played as part of gay flashbacks pretty much once an episode, so you can't miss it.) Huaien is being menacing in an attempt to be offputting, and Xiaobao is stubbornly refusing to be anything but charmed by it, and as soon as Huaien turns his head, Xiaobao takes advantage of the moment and plants a quick little mwah! on Huaien's cheek.

And it's SO GOOD. I said out loud, in that moment, do you know how many shows would be improved if one guy could just give another guy a little kissie on his cheek? It should be like how getting a PG-13 rating allows your movie one "fuck," but instead every c-drama gets one moment where a guy gives another guy a little peck. Not even on the lips! Like how Aragorn gets to give Boromir a farewell forehead kiss. Sometimes a scene just calls for a little kissie! Sometimes everything would be better if a guy could just kiss the homies!

You're thinking now of all the places you'd use your single little kissie in various dramas, aren't you? Yeah, so am I.

4. side pairs side pairs side pairs~

Yeah, main couple, true love, happily ever after, whatever. SIDE PAIRS SIDE PAIRS SIDE PAIRS [banging rhythmically on table]

You know the genre, so you know there's always going to be That One Guy that threatens to steal the pure-hearted one away from the psycho by being handsome, rich, well-intentioned, and generally emotionally stable. You also know it's not going to work, because no matter how much healthier that relationship would be, it's not the tasty toxic flavor we're going for here. Anyway, sorry, Su Yin, but you never left the childhoodbestfriendzone.

That bratty prince wants to fuck his cousin so bad. His cousin is not going to fuck him, not because of cousin status, but because the bratty prince needs to be tossed out the nearest window and not let back in until he can legally drink.

I was ready to ship Jin Xiaobao's two little guard buddies -- but no! The littler of the two guard buddies has his own love interest who shows up later in the show, and I'm so upset that there's not more of these two, because that's an unexpectedly hot setup. I'll say no more; you should enjoy this one as it happens.

Now, do not presume that this is a Kinnporsche deal, where fiction has created a magical world in which every man is at least a Kinsey 2. There are still straight men in this show (and a few men who clearly think they're straight but have not yet gotten the memo) who experience varying degrees of befuddlement about the homo drama happening around them. Most characters are at least casually anti-gay, but in sort of the same way you might expect a big cattle-ranching family to react if their son started dating a vegan -- it's not unthinkable or illegal, but, like, why?

There needs to be a word for a gentler state than homophobia. Something like homobefuddlement, a social condition where falling in love with another guy is about on the level of getting a face tattoo or naming your child Optimus Prime. There's nothing stopping you, but you know somebody's roasting your ass on Ancient Chinese Fantasy Reddit.

5. A budget of three dollars and a ham sandwich

I am firmly on record as being charmed by productions that make do with skimpy resources, and Meet You at the Blossom's resources are skimpy as heck. I highly suspect this is one of those situations where if they'd known it was going get the attention that it has, they might've put more money into it from the start -- but they didn't, so they didn't.

I keep coming back to "soap opera" as a description, because that's about the production level you should be picturing here. If you played this on a TV with motion smoothing enabled, the effect would be complete. Everything is done to the cheapest possible degree. Characters legitimately toss smoke bombs and disappear like they're anime ninjas, probably because renting a fog machine has got to be way less expensive than the rigs for wirework. That's the type of shoestring budget we're talking here.

The greenscreen is Not Good, my friends. I mean, not that you expected it to be, but however far you've lowered your expectations already, lower them more.

They got to borrow a brothel set for like half an hour. It's the most people you see in a single room at the same time, and it represents drunkenness by spraying raspberry soda over all the lights.

If I had a nickel for every time Huaien is in some terrible predicament that seems impossible for him to get out of, and then he shows up somewhere else like two scenes later, and we never find out exactly how he got out of that terrible predicament, I would have multiple nickels in my pocket, is all I'm saying.

You know, if my wigs/beards and wig/beard glue were that bad, I would simply refrain from frequent, intense close-ups of the parts where people's fake hair joins to their faces. And if my actors all had that much foundation caked on them, I would probably refrain from close-ups, period. But that's just me.

Actually, no, there's something else about the wigs: They're styled so badly that it actually wraps around (ha ha) to being charming. I'm used to wig situations where the topknots are combed tight and oiled into place within an inch of their lives. But here, everybody who has an updo has kind of a messy one? Especially little Jinbao, where you can see the ends of his ponytail stick out the back in a scruffy fashion, giving him the vibe of a little ragamuffin who's never learned how to do up his hair quite right.

There's a plot, sort of. It's basically the thinnest possible series of excuses for the action in the show to happen, told in occasional five-minute bursts of exposition given by characters you forgot about between now and the last time they appeared. Don't worry if you can't keep track of which prince is which, or who is whose dad. Man, there's even a "curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" near the end that's played up as some big shock, and I was like, have we met this dude before? I think pretty much every time the grownups started talking, we stopped paying attention. Look, I know this is based on a novel I haven't read, and I'm sure the plot comes off better when it's all packed together in a couple of pages of dialogue you can skip without consequence on your way to the boy-kissing, but in the show it just comes off as perfunctory and clunky. From what I've seen, people who've read the book tend to be way more into the intricacies of the narrative, but I haven't, so I'm not.

(Wait, in the novel, Jin Xiaobao is supposed to be fat? Well, now I feel I've been robbed! ...Eh, it's fine, I'm not sad to skip a sequence where the side benefit of trauma is that you get skinny.)

All this, to me, is charming. If you demand higher production values from your entertainment, this will not be what you want. If cozying up with some low-budget tomfooloery with a big heart feels like comfort food to you, you are among friends here.

And speaking of friends, let me strongly recommend that you watch this with some, if you can, because there are parts that are just begging to get riffed on. I would not have had a tenth as much fun watching it alone as I did goofing my way through it with my wife. It is a show that is only improved by the jokes you make about it along the way. It has no dignity, nor are you obligated to treat it as though it does. Cuddle up with your buddies, grab your favorite snacks, and sharpen your shadiest claws.

Want to meet this show somewhere?

It's conveniently up in a lot of places! Pick your poison:

GagaOOLala

WeTV

iQIYI

Viki

YouTube

Look, I'm going to say it one more time for the people in the back row: This is not a serious, thoughtful portrayal of healthy relationship dynamics. If you expect it to be, you will be sorely disappointed. It is a tale of a bunch of dudes (and, like, two women) whose emotional volume knobs are stuck at eleven and emotional intelligence doesn't go above a two. Go into it knowing what you're getting into, and you might just have yourself a pretty good time.

Get that little kissie!

#meet you at the blossom #myatb #花开有时颓靡无声 #ก่อนดอกไม้...บาน #rec post #i made this

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wen-kexing-apologist · 1 year ago

Text

Bad Buddy x ATOTS aka Damn You WMT

Dear @waitmyturtles, fuck you, respectfully wen-kexing-apologist. Turts, I have shit to do, I do not have time for this. But once again I CANNOT STOP THINKING ABOUT IT SO, FUCK ME I GUESS WE’RE DOING A FOREST EPISODE.

More specifically, we are doing an Our Skyy 2, Episode 15 Part 1/4 post, probably far earlier than I should be, and definitely instead of doing work I absolutely need to be doing. But Pat and Phupa’s interactions in this part of the episode have me thinking about Phupa and his relationship to queerness.

I don’t know about anyone else, but I had a marvelous time watching Part 1 of our latest Bad Buddy x ATOTS crossover episode. Why? Because it is absolutely incredibly fun to watch Pat personally terrorize the local gay elder.

What I have really been enjoying in these crossover episodes is watching the ways the similarities and differences in Phupa, Pat, Pran, and Tian play out. Each person spends most of the time paired with the character who play the same role in the relationship but whose personalities and approaches to their relationships are very different. Phupa is the support in his relationship with Tian, Pat is the support in his relationship with Pran, but Phupa never bends and Pat always gives in.

The thing I love about Pat is that he is unabashed in his queerness, he rolls up on to the scene and starts flirting the second he opens his mouth, and then he

Literally

Never

Stops

He annoys Pran, he tests the structural integrity of the house with Pran, sure, but he also wakes up next to Phupa and then proceeds to never let Phupa forget that a) he would and b) that they thought they might have.

He rolls up on the scene as Phupa and his coworker are getting ready to head into the forest, and he starts talking openly and loudly about Phupa’s boyfriend, and the relationship problems they are having.

Phupa is less than amused.

Phupa does not want Pat coming with him, Pat sneaks into the back of the truck, Phupa begrudgingly allows Pat to come with him and Pat says “you’re the cutest”

Phupa is less than amused.

I’m gonna skip ahead a little bit and then regress if that is okay with everyone, after Phupa puts bandaid’s on Pat says yet again “what a cute print, Chief”, “you have a cute side, Chief”

“No wonder teacher is head over heels for you,”

Here Pat is, one half of the first queer couple to interact with Phupa and Tian in god knows how long or possibly ever, talking casually, happily, loudly, and openly about Phupa’s relationship with Tian and Tian’s feelings for Phupa. Reaffirming to Phupa in a way that it is obvious that Tian is in love with him.

And still Phupa is not having it.

As they continue their walk, Pat starts smelling the trees and Phupa is like oh jesus fucking christ what the hell are you doing you are making my life a living hell- “What are you doing?”

And in response, Pat is very open and sappy about Pran.

gif from @liyazaki

“Pran smells so good, if he is nearby, I can find him,” and Phupa is flabbergasted. He just stands there for a second, looking Pat up and down like “okay, seriously…what the fuck?” and he is so obvious about it in the way he looks at Pat and in the way he walks away, that Pat is able to tell immediately that Phupa is, once again, not vibing with Pat’s casual references to his queerness, or overt and honest love and admission of intimacy with his partner. Pat knows Pran’s scent so well that he is confident he could pick it up in the middle of the forest. That suggests a level of familiarity with a body that would traditionally be considered uncouth, if you were polite, and doubly so if you are queer.

gif from @liyazaki

When Phupa starts walking like he’s over the conversation, Pat’s easy smile shifts to confusion “What? Haven’t you smelled Teacher’s body before?”

(Translation: Aren’t you also so in love with your partner, and aren’t you so intimate with your partner that you could recognize his scent anywhere you went? Looking at you watermelon soap sponsorship…looking at you tea bag smell pouch…)

And it’s the inclusion of the word body that really strikes me here, because to say “what? Haven’t you smelled Teacher before?” evokes a different relationship than “What? Haven’t you smelled Teacher’s body?” does.

“That’s too bad” Pat says, and leans suggestively close to Phupa. Like a cat toying with a mouse. Pat likes needling at Phupa’s discomfort around explicit references to Pat and Pran’s sex life. And while we know Phupa has most certainly smelled Tian’s body before, Phupa SPINS around, has this brief moment of absolute wide eye about being so blatantly asked a question that alludes to his physical relationship to and with Tian, looks Pat dead in the eye and says “I’m not a pervert like you,”

gif from @liyazaki

Harsh words. Incredibly harsh words, especially because of the connotations of queerness with perversion, especially because iirc from the KinnPorsche LGBTQ+ Facts special on IQIYI, pervert is often an insult used in Thailand for queer people. Phupa is uncomfortable with Pat’s open conversation about his queer relationship, about his queer intimacy and he chooses to meet Pat with homophobia in the way of a slur.

But Pat is having fun, and I honestly believe he expects that kind of reaction. Pat and Pran were awkward witnesses to Tian and Phupa’s little domestic about watching him shower and looking lovingly into their eyes, but Phupa is stiff the whole time, he is aware that he is engaging in that conversation while other people are present, and he can’t take it and he literally flees. And some of that is because he is getting riled up about their fight, but we see in part 2 of this episode that when Phupa is actually angry with Tian about something, he has no problem standing up and planting his feet to confront Tian about it.

Anyway, Pat is having fun, and Pat wants to test Phupa and so, completely unphased he starts talking about how Tian smells, as if he is familiar. He is like "my boyfriend smells soooo good, do you smell your boyfriend's body? Your boyfriend smells good" and it’s a direct display of Pat's comfortability with his partner, their closeness, and their level of intimacy.

“Teacher Tian smells so good” Pat says with the world’s widest grin

“How do you know that?” Phupa asks almost challenging

“I thought you said you’d never smelled him”

gif from @liyazaki

Caught ya. Phupa has indirectly admitted to intimacy. Pat has successfully engaged Phupa in a conversation that is completely about Phupa’s queerness.

And as Part 2 goes on, we are made more and more aware of how little outward public affection Phupa and Tian engage in. If Phupa and Tian touch around other people, there has to be a legitimate reason to do so (Tian fainted, Tian fainted again, Tian fainted a third time, Tian is drunk, Phupa is drunk, etc.). In this episode, Tian is weak and almost collapses in to Phupa’s arms because he exerted himself too much with his heart. Phupa’s hand is on Tian’s back and then Tian is away from him and standing upright, and when Phupa, Tian, Pat, and Pran exit the forest and enter the clearing of the safe house.

Pat is using Pran as a crutch, and Phupa and Tian have placed a child in between them. They are not touching, they aren’t even standing all that close to each other. Phupa is in ranger mode, sure, but he’s not really in front of people he has to impress, he doesn’t have to be completely professional and on guard when they are in the shack together. Especially when his partner with a body that is currently trying to reject his heart, is sitting there looking on the verge of a heart attack.

Phupa is making direct eye contact with Tian here, he is worried about Tian here, his focus is on Tian here, and yet he does not offer any physical comfort. No reassuring touch, no forehead kiss, hell, not even a hand on the back of his head to check for fever. He’s focused on getting the radio working, which is incredibly important in case there is a medical emergency, but he does not spare a second to physically ground him and Tian. He can only look from a distance. Because there are other people around, there is a child around. Phupa can’t be seen engaging in homosexual softness, Phupa has to be seen as a forest ranger, doing his job, his actual job that involves rescuing his stubborn dumbass boyfriend from yet again getting lost in the forest, but does not involve him being in love.

Again, Phupa truly has no one here he needs to impress, he’s in a room with a child, his boyfriend, and a couple of nuisances that have shown him absolutely zero respect since the moment they waltzed in to his neck of the woods.

At dinner even, after things have settled down, Phupa still cannot bring himself close to Tian in front of prying eyes.

Pat and Pran? Literally sitting side by side, knees touching. They are as close to each other as they possibly can be without literally sitting in each other’s laps.

Here is a close up of Pat and Pran literally making physical contact with each other at the knee and at the elbow.

And what Phupa and Tian do not know, is that Pat and Pran can't be outwardly and openly affectionate to one another in public when they are at school and so they make up for it by being disgusting when they aren't in school. Pat and Pran have to keep up a pretense, and its a tragic undertone to their ability to diffuse the brewing Tian and Phupa fight by looking at each other, nodding, and then improvising a fight realistic enough to get Phupa and Tian to pull them apart.

Because Pat and Pran’s relationship at home is a metaphor for external homophobia, because they are so used to it by now, the having to hide, to pretend they don’t like each other, to pretend they are mad, to pretend they aren’t in love, that they can just ease right in to staged fights at the drop of a fucking hat. But even in their fake fight they wind up pressed up against each other.

(hehe, screen shot funny, look at Phupa, he zoomin’)

Because for so long the only way they could have physical contact in public was by fighting, was by beating each other up, was by pushing or pulling each other away from a fight. Pat and Pran understand that Tian and Phupa are having a fight that they also once had, but they can also see the parts underneath it, the parts that make Phupa ask why the emphasis on him in Tian’s story is about Phupa being in love with Tian rather than his work.

Pat is simultaneously taking the opportunity of being hours and hours away from home, from where he has to hide his relationship, to be as openly and obviously in love with Pran as he has always been and is telling Phupa he is safe to be gay around. That he and Pran are safe people to be gay around, are safe people for him to be openly affectionate with his boyfriend around.

And that stems from the parts of Pat and Phupa that are wildly different.

Like, it is very very notable that Pat confesses his feelings for Pran practically as soon as he realizes that he has feelings for him and initiates the rooftop kiss which they share before they are even together, and then they have a bunch of little kisses, and they sneak as many touches as they can, and they make out multiple times in the show

And Phupa and Tian have…a single forehead kiss and then one kiss, at the top of a mountain, where no one would ever be able to see them after their story is complete.

In last week’s crossover episode, the level of intimacy that Phupa engages in with Tian is called out, even by Aof himself with the roleplaying scene between Pat and Pran where they pretend to be Phupa and Tian putting up a mosquito net and conclude that they absolutely must have kissed then.

But we know they didn’t. We know how painstakingly long it takes for Phupa and Tian to reach that level of intimacy with one another.

I'm even thinking backstory-wise, what is forest ranger training like? Is it part of the military? Did Phupa's gay ass have to enlist in a presumably male dominated field and like, go to training, and be around a bunch of guys, and make sure they didn't suspect he was gay?

I’m thinking about the moments in last week’s episode where it seemed like things were going better between Phupa and Tian, and it was always when Phupa was physically affectionate with Tian, putting his arm around him and not letting him go, when they were at karaoke, and when they were drunkenly stumbling home together, again locked in eachother’s embrace, where anyone could see them.

To regress as I promised back to the leech scene I am struck by what the approach to removing the leeches says about Pat and Phupa respectively.

Pat rips the leech off of him and Phupa takes time to put a lighter to them and pluck them off in a way that does not hurt Pat

Pat rips the leech off and bleeding for it, hurting himself in the process, because he is impulsive and impatient, Pat bleeds emotion, he's practically incapable of hiding what he's feeling, and he must obey his emotions before all else. Therefore, in Bad Buddy Episode 5, when he realizes he has feelings for Pran, Pat immediately has to talk to Pran about his feelings, immediately leans in to the emotion he is feeling in the present moment, and initiates a kiss. A kiss that leaves him feeling blissful, and that leaves him hurt because Pran walks away, because Pran has known forever how much he likes Pat, because Pat has only just figured out his feelings, he hasn’t had to sit with them for long, and yet that kiss is an equally strong release for both of them. When Phupa removes the leech from Pat’s leg he is methodical and patient, he tries to minimize the wound, it takes longer but it has the same result which is why it takes so damn long for him and Tian to get together. When I watches ATOTS and they touched pinkies under that blanket and I went "ah yes! This is the part where you start making out and fucking cause they are adults who have maybe been in a relationship before and who have both been obviously painfully aware of their feelings for eachother since the moment they laid eye on each other"...and then they don’t. Phupa waits, and waits, and waits.

I think the fundamental thing that I see replaying in this episode especially, and with Pat and Phupa’s interactions especially is the elder versus younger queer mentality we got in Moonlight Chicken, with very different characters from Jim and Li Ming, but following a similar pattern of restraint and time versus just jumping right in.

And it’s also why I think the conversation between Pran and Phupa is so important:

gifs by @nanons

Pat and Pran’s need to keep their relationship secret because of their family’s, and because of Pran’s mom specifically is a metaphor for external homophobia. Pat and Pran are extremely comfortable in their sexuality, very open in their love for one another when they are amongst other queer people, or amongst allies, when they are away from their hometown or when they are in the privacy of their homes.

There are a lot of different pieces in play around Phupa and Tian’s relationship, but there is ultimately a metaphor at the most or a blatant sense at the least of internal homophobia on the part of Phupa.

Pat has chosen to stay “in the closet” in order to be with Pran. In a convo with @shortpplfedup about this, Nini said it the most accurate and heart wrenching line: “It's honestly that Pran can't really ever compare to Pat's sacrifice here, and he KNOWS it,”

Similarly, Phupa believes that Tian has made a sacrifice to be with him, and he knows it. Which is why he can’t bring himself to go to Tian’s birthday, because Tian has left before, because he is scared every time Tian goes that he will realize that Phupa isn’t enough. Because Phupa is afraid of being seen as Tian’s partner. Because Phupa is really only capable of being physically affectionate behind closed doors. When they are completely alone. Cause even in the camp, when the child is sleeping and Pat and Pran are off literally fucking in the tent minding their own goddamn business, Phupa cannot bring himself to touch Tian.

They’re sharing place but not space, or whatever it was that Ayan said to Akk in their Our Skyy 2 episodes. When Phupa gives Tian his medicine, at most their fingers brush, they don’t sit down together, they don’t ground themselves with touch. They share this place, but they do not encroach on each other’s personal space…

…until Phupa falls asleep

gif by @earthpirapat

At which point Tian gets up, and places his blanket on him, and physical touches his arm, his shoulder, etc. as he is adjusting the blanket for him.

Tian initiates the touch, Tian stayed in the village with him, Tian is sacrificing his health to be here with Phupa. Phupa has spent 90% of his time alone with the bouncing ball of sunshine that is Pat, and 5% of his time with the chaotic homosexual energy of Pat and Pran together, and to be real, as much as we know about Pat and Pran’s relationship, and as much depth as we are able to pull from these specific characters interacting in the way they do, Phupa has no idea what Pat and Pran have been through to be where they are.

To anyone who does not know Pat and Pran’s story, they seem like nothing more than two horny young adults in love, who feel no need to hide themselves and their queerness away, that have never had a struggle in their life, and do not understand the trials and tribulations of navigating an older queer relationship, who will last the length of a honeymoon period and then disappear at the first sign of real conflict. Thus, I think Phupa grossly underestimates the company he is currently keeping.

So I think, personally, Phupa is kinda of struck by the sudden and unexpected depth that comes from Pran. That Pran is able to identify and then absolutely hone in and strike at the exact things that Phupa is struggling with. As much as Pat has both relished in the freedom he has to be disgustingly in love with his boyfriend in the woods, and as much as Pat has tried to make himself an obviously safe person to be openly gay around, Phupa is incapable of understanding what he can learn from Pat and Pran’s relationship until he realizes these boys have a lot more in common with him than he thought, and that their relationship and their relationship to one another is more complex and therefore more similar to him and Tian’s situation than he would like.

Pran and Phupa carry the weight of feeling like nothing they do will ever compare to the sacrifices their partner has made to be with them. I didn’t get much in to Pat and Tian here, but their interaction makes it clear that they both carry the weight of feeling like their partner does not need them.

Phupa has literally saved Tian’s life on numerous occasions, Tian is chronically ill, Tian has limitations. Phupa is a forest ranger, who is a foundation in his community, who is skilled and competent, and fiercely independent. Pat is disorganized, and impulsive, his father is the reason he and Pran can’t be open about their relationship, he is the reason Pran got sent away.

We get a fun reversal with dynamics in these Bad Buddy x ATOTS episodes because Tian and Phupa are older, but Pat and Pran have an entire lifetime of navigating and overcoming conflict under their belt. Pat and Pran have already weathered the storm of the fight that Tian and Phupa are having. They have already settled in to who they are, but Pat and Pran (Pran especially) are able to see the ways that always giving in and never backing down wears on a person. Pran learns from seeing the pain that Tian is in that being uncompromising might cause fractures in their relationship in the future.

Tian and Phupa (Phupa especially) are learning how to resolve their conflicts. Pran, who is holding on to Tian and Phupa’s story so tightly because it is shared, because it is open, because anyone who wants to can know about it, pushes Phupa, who cannot cope with being portrayed as being in love with Tian, to read all of the diary Tian published online. Pran pushes Phupa to push through the emotional blocks, to push past his initial concerns, and to assume Tian wrote and published this story with both an understanding of who is partner is and what Phupa is comfortable with, and with no intention of hurting anybody.

Anyway, all of this to say, that this episode has really made me analyze Phupa with an internalized homophobia lens, and though one can never trust a P’Aof trailer, it has left me with two impressions.

On the subject of Phupa and internalized homophobia, and needing to move past that (and more) in order for his relationship with Tian to survive this fight, @shortpplfedup said it best:

“Now I'm thinking about one moment from the preview (but just a moment!) where Phupha tells Tian he's not gonna sneak to look at him, he's gonna OPENLY look at him”

And cause it seems like Phupa learned some things from the Bothersome Boys:

Case in point:

Here's multiple hours of my life I will never get back, at least I had fun! Time to go do the work I was supposed to be doing tonight :p

That's all folks!

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