#that’s also what makes byler endgame so clear

[crxzytogether]

Lol I wanna address this even tho nobody asked because I’m mad. Like ship whoever you want as yk this person said but leave it out of our tag-💀 my problems more with the fact that they tagged byler for this post than what they said but yk since they tagged us might as well respond.

Firstly, “ideas planted by your community”? Huh? Girl what- you mean our evidence? You mean our analysis and perceptions and ability to interpret what we’re watching beyond surface level? And honestly after season 4 even surface level melodramas not looking too good- Secondly, what harsh truths were brought up? The lies? Your perception of montauk? which idk sounds a lot like mike and wills relationship to me but to each their own… “they’ve been together since pretty much day one”, “they have a deep connection”, “four seasons of character development”?? Do I even need to explain? Who’s been together since day one? Right mike and will, in the beginning of episode 1 before any of the upside down shit even happens we’re shown that their relationship is different from their relationship with the other party members. A fact that’s proven time and time again throughout season 1 where we see how much more Mike is affected by Will’s disappearance(not tryna negate everybody else’s feelings or reactions but it’s clear that we’re supposed to notice Mike cares slightly more or in a different way). As for the deep connections? Season 2 shed scene ring a bell, the first one of Mike’s monologue that’s an attempt to help someone he cares about that actually works and is completely honest, deep connection boom. And that connections emphasized again in s4 with Will being able to encourage Mike and make him feel better and we already know why it’s special on Will’s side and their whole plot-line that season. Next, “four seasons of character development” im sorry what?, season 1 and season 3 maybe are the only seasons I’d consider they had that meanwhile season 4 I’d say they had character regression because tell me how Mike goes from being able to comfort El about her feeling like she’s a monster but then does a 180 not only unable to comfort her but also make her feel worse-(I’m talking about she didn’t look fine in case you didn’t catch that). Back to s1/s3, s1 where they were friends for the most part is the healthiest their relationship has ever been the entire show- like😭😭it literally just goes downhill from there. Season 2/season 3 their codependency I’m- and season 4 El feeling like she has to lie to Mike about her life and Mike unable to comfort her and also hiding his own interests from her. Like sure the bullying thing I get why she’d hide that maybe not really but El lies about so many things😭😭 she feels like she has to lie to keep up the relationship. THAT 👏 IS 👏 NOT 👏 HEALTHY 👏. Like maybe after they’ve both grown separately I’d consider it but as of now? No sir. Also let me remind you how El confronted Angela and asked her to help El keep up the pretence- SHE STILL DIDN’T FEEL SAFE OR COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TELL MIKE THE TRUTH. That’s not healthy for either of them. My byler agenda aside I still don’t think Mike and El should be together. Lastly, “the fact that Mileven IS endgame”, again I’m sorry what? Have you watched season 5? Have you read the scripts or been on set or talked to anybody working on st5 or work on st5 yourself? No? So then how is that a fact- it’s a prediction, an assumption but it’s not a fact. If after season 5 comes out and it did end up becoming true then you could use that phrase but as of now when you have no idea how season 5 is gonna go you can’t call that a fact. Also rip how are you so confident when Mike and Will are literally attached at the hip so far from what we have seen besides the rooftop convo and if that is enough to convince you then yikes- bc we’ve got like 10 of those to convince us so good luck watching season 5 and have a good day ig

[wibble-wobbegong]

mike really is such a good example of a person who is so insecure and self destructive that he starts destroying the things around him but he doesn’t realize until it’s already broken but he’s also a person with so much love that it transcends himself and gives him the ability to fix things that don’t seem fixable. for every ounce of himself he hates he loves and admires the people around him so it’s this constant push and pull of curling around himself and reaching out for the people around him and he struggles so much to balance that so the only way to satisfy his arc is to let him uncurl so he can finally hold onto the people he keeps reaching for

[therainscene]

I've described myself in the past as "overly-queerbaited" as a way of explaining why it took me so long to come around to Byler endgame as a legitimate possibility... but that's kind of a misleading way of putting it.

Truth is, I've always been too much of a cynical fuck to fall for queerbait... or any other story that promises positive queer rep.

[Sherlock couldn't touch me; I saw this cringe homophobia coming from a mile away. Fans mistaking straight anxiety jokes for meaningful gay subtext was clearly doomed to end in mockery. Nobody deserved to be treated like that... but god, it was easy to predict.]

I think it's a symptom of having grown up under Section 28 -- feeling like I'm being unreasonable for wanting to see queerness normalized is such an ingrained habit that even today I instinctively recoil like a vampire touching sunlight whenever an optimistic queer story falls unrequested into my lap.

But I'm hardly alone in feeling this way -- many queer Millennial and Gen-X fans of Stranger Things are against the idea of Byler because it would ruin the catharsis of watching the gay boy growing up in the same era as we did slowly succumb to the same despair that we did.

[For those who haven't played the VR game: Vecna is speaking in this screenshot.]

There's genuine comfort to be found in painful stories -- this type of catharsis is practically the cornerstone of horror as a genre -- so I can't really fault myself or anyone else for wanting it, despite the obnoxious oversaturation of disappointing queer endings in media.

This is the nostalgia show, after all -- and like it or not, for many middle-aged queers in the target audience, nostalgia is shot through with the pain of homophobia and loneliness.

But do you know who else is a hurt queer(-coded) adult who resents happy endings? This cynical fuck:

Henry personifies despair and loneliness and the dark urge to take our pain out on others -- and when Will is in the picture, I would argue that he also represents internalized homophobia.

Will might represent who we were -- but Henry represents who we've let ourselves turn into.

And I don't think many of us want to admit to that, because that would involve questioning why we have so much in common with the literal villain of the show; why we're still so consumed with self-pity after 20+ years that we're obsessing over the fate of some kid.

I'm not suggesting that wanting a less-than-fairytale ending for a fictional gay boy is equivalent to being a child killer lol. It's perfectly valid to want to see your pain acknowledged, and stories which appeal to that desire deserve to exist.

But between Henry's connection to Will and the cycle of abuse themes of the show, it's clear that this particular story simply isn't about wallowing in the bleakness of growing up gay in the 80s, but about self-actualizing in spite of it all.

So I just can't bring myself to want a "relatable" ending for Will.

As much as I struggle to enjoy positive queer rep, I don't want to be so cynical. I'd thrown up so many walls to protect myself as a teenager that I forgot how desperately I wanted to see just one of those painful queer stories end on the same uplifting note that straight stories were always entitled to: with true love overcoming the odds, saving the day, and living happily ever after.

[But I'm A Cheerleader, a surprisingly fun movie about conversion therapy, is proof that stories like this did exist when I was a teen... but finding them in the pre- and early-internet days amidst so much censorship was a tall order.]

What makes Stranger Things different from most queer stories -- and what allowed it to pierce through my defenses and stab me in the gut -- is that it perfectly mimics those bleak, acceptable-to-the-censors stories from my youth -- only this time, the secret uplifting gay plot twist is real.

Not for the sake of shock value or of grabbing some empty woke points at the last second, but because the plan all along was to slap the audience in the face for believing homophobic lies about the existence of queer happiness.

That's some gourmet catharsis, if you ask me.

Just the possibility that my inner child might finally be vindicated has allowed me to truly let myself want the things I want for the first time in 20 years -- and that's the first step towards finally crawling back out into the sunlight.

Happy Pride Month, everyone. 🌈

[teambyler]

Stranger Things has made the General Audience care too much for Will to deny a Byler ending

In Season 1, Will is kidnapped, survives a week without food or shelter in a nightmare dimension, and is implanted by a demon. He's been abused by his dad and bullied his whole life. Yet once he orients himself the FIRST thing he does is see Jonathan's hand and ask if he's okay:

In Season 2, he avoids telling everyone what's tormenting him because he doesn't want to worry them and he thinks he'd be misunderstood and babied. (He only tells Mike.) He gets possessed, has the guilt of causing people's deaths, and multiple times feels the pain of being burnt alive:

In Season 3, his friends aren't interested in D&D. Mike tells him something homophobic and cruel. Will realizes he's gay and closeted and has had his innocence stolen from him forever. He destroys Castle Byers full of sorrow and self-hate:

In Season 4, he's in love with his best friend and lives with the pain that Mike is dating his sister. STILL, he unconditionally helps Mike in the relationship, even if it denies himself a chance to be with him. He gives El the credit for the painting HE made for HIM:

For 4 seasons, the show has made people care for Will as he suffers alone. What logically happens in Season 5 is that he stops suffering and is no longer alone.

In Season 5, the Duffer Brothers have left an open plot point where MIke's love confession to El was based on a lie. He felt romantic love for the first time because WILL confessed his love for HIM. (See my blog for more on that!)

The seeds for a "Byler twist" are all there. The main factor against a Byler endgame is a need to cater to the General Audience who might not be ready for a gay relationship between two main characters.

But not only would denying Byler be (by far) the worst instance of queerbaiting in media history, where Will's love for Mike is simply a device to prop up a straight relationship...

... It also would feel particularly CRUEL to Will. For 4 seasons, the Duffer Brothers have made sure the GENERAL AUDIENCE wants him to have a happy ending. And they have made clear that Will wants to be with Mike so much.

Nearly every other main character in ST has had their love interest. There is no main cast addition to s5, so there is no "other boy." If Byler happens, then the people who'd complain would not only want the gay boy, but WILL of all people (how dare you!), to be the only main character to end up alone. He is America's Gay Adopted Son. The anti-Bylers would be isolated.

The Duffer brothers have set up the GA to cheer for Will pairing with the boy he loves. It would be a home run against homophobia.

Will told Mike he is the heart of the party. But for the GA, Will has been the heart of the show since the beginning. (And if Mike leads the party in s5, it's because Will's heart is on his shield.)

"Will really takes center stage again in [season] 5," Ross Duffer told Variety. "This emotional arc for him is what we feel is going to hopefully tie the whole series together."

The Duffers have said s4 was their Empire Strikes Back ending. Which makes s5 the show's triumphant Return of the Jedi.

Will will get his happy ending. It's all there!

-teambyler

[carigm]

THE NEW ST VR GAME IS BYLER AND WILL BYERS GOLD!!!

Okay, so if any of you are on Twitter you might have seen mlvns throwing a tantrum over a clip from a new ST VR game. Here’s the clip:

https://x.com/1987byler/status/1761026225823449094?s=46

If anyone doesn’t want to watch it, I’ll describe it here. It’s a hypothetical of Will having a Vecna vision/or hearing Vecna talk to him set during pre S2 time. He’s listening to Mike talk about how different and amazing El was and he starts to hear Vecna’s voice telling him to “tell Mike how you feel” “your stomach is all in knots” “you don’t want her to come back”. Basically Vecna going “I know what you are” lol

Mlvns are grasping at straws and saying Will hates El because of something Vecna said to make him insecure, because that’s how Vecna operates. He puts negative thoughts in his victim’s heads and uses their biggest insecurities against them. I guess mlvns weren’t watching the Vecna parts of the show if they don’t get this. Never mind that this was also before Will ever met El, and well, it’s also not canon because it’s not in the show so…

Regardless of this game not being canon or fully canon, like I said, there’s a lot of emphasis on Will’s feelings for Mike. Like the game makers literally implying Will has been in love with Mike since S1…

As Vecna taunts Will, Will ends up hiding inside a memory of him and Mike at Castle Byers. His happy memory. It’s not like this show hasn’t made a big deal of characters having to use happy memories to find strength, it’s not like they haven’t been doing this since S2.

In another scene, Vecna finds Will in the UD and remarks how he is “the key to everything” you don’t say 💀

As for mlvn, well they’re as unimportant as always. There’s a moment where Mike mentions he hopes El comes back to play a game with them (remember the game is set pre S2) and the moment he talks about how cool El is, in which the literal focus is Vecna taunting Will.

Again, I can see why mlvns are so pressed and clinging to that line said by Vecna (which they think makes Will look bad) in order to avoid looking at the bigger picture.

Because even though this game isn’t fully canon, it’s pretty damn clear that Will having Vecna visions in S5 is a given. He will be taunted for his sexuality, his love for Mike, what happened with his dad. I wouldn’t even be surprised if there’s a vision of Mike rejecting him/choosing El over him. However, here’s what mlvns are afraid of:

Vecna is a liar, and they as much as us, know that if such a vision happens in the show Byler will be endgame.

Reality will be the opposite of Vecna’s visions, and that’s what they’re setting up. Will thinks he’s unloved, Vecna will use that to his advantage, Vecna will be wrong. It’s a simple set up really 🤷‍♀️

[nerdflayer]

This is my opinion on why I believe the GA doesn’t see Byler.

Before I begin, I just want to say I’ve been a Byler fan since Season 1. Season 2 cemented my feelings about them. Season 3 crushed my soul. And season 4 at first watch made me feel pessimistic but eventually optimistic. As a gay boy myself I can’t help but see the whole show through Will eyes (he is me) and can’t help but fall in love with Mike. I mean he did so much for Will in the beginning, how could you not love Mike for that.

The relationship between the boys really does take a turn for the worse coming off S2 into S3 because Mikes character kind of does a 180 in terms of Bylers relationship.

Anyway. Talking about S4, we see A LOT of the CA plot line from Wills perspective. And I think this is key to people not seeing Byler. Wills feelings are made very clear. He’s depressed, traumatized, he doesn’t fit in, he is well aware of his homosexuality which brings stress and suffering and the tremendous disappointment that he has in Mikes character, yet he can’t help but love regardless. With that said, Wills POV is bleak, and coming off the back of S3 it’s easier and, I would say necessary, for his character to believe that Mike doesn’t love him. The pain of letting yourself believe they do love you only to be rejected, is very hurtful. And I don’t think that boy can handle more pain so it’s safer for him to deny the hope. Will even says “I’m not going to fall in love.”

Mikes actions also play into this. Will does not see Mikes love for him. He can’t hug him, is dismissive, he argues and blames Will at Rink O Mania, he wrote to El but didn’t seam to call Will, makes the whole trip about El, isn’t attentive to Will at all, and even when Mike apologizes for obsessing over El- every one of their conversations is still about her. Again this is Wills POV. I will say Mike does give him hints and mix messages for romantics feelings but like I said, how is Will suppose to trust? Is Will just reading into the flirting because he wants it so badly? It needs to be direct otherwise Will and the GA won’t see it or believe it.

Obviously there are a lot of hints for Byler, and I believe 100% it will happen. I’m choosing to trust the hope even though Will isn’t able to.

My point is I think Wills painful POV cannot be underestimated even if straight viewers dont like Will you can’t deny how powerful it is. Will literally helped Mike say I love you to El because he doesn’t have hope for himself. I think straight viewers use his hopeless as evidence for why Mike and El will end up together. It’s interesting that you hate Will but Will plays a role in convincing you of Milevens endgame. What they don’t understand, other than all the Byler evidence, is that Will is wrong! Mike does have romantic feelings for him and Mike will get there! Because Mike doesn’t need to find himself he needs to return to the person he’s always been. He showed us who he is and it’s the person he was in S1 & S2 and we see it when he’s with Will!

[robynrocksforbrains]

Mike Wheeler is important and there's nothing wrong with analyzing him

Since y'all wanna be insufferable bitches about it I'm gonna explain to you why he's important, why Will loves him, why his struggles should be acknowledged, and why his character depth is pivotal to byler endgame being a satisfying conclusion for both Mike AND Will. Deal with it!

We are not seeing smoke where there isn't a flame. We are seeing smoke where there is a literal fucking forest fire.

Starting off with something a lot of people aren't ready for but I've seen more people talking about: Mike is the main character of s1 at the very least. He is the character that brings us into the world of stranger things. He is the character that the writers chose for this. Mike is the main character of s1 and it was an instant hit. The writers love Mike. Contrary to popular belief, giving a character an arc where they are struggling and their behavior changes from what is normal for the character we know and love does NOT mean the writers hate that character. It means they deliberately chose to give that character complexity and depth. Your inability to like characters that do anything wrong ever is not the fault of the writers. Your decision to act as if a character is not important is not reflective of the actual narrative because it in fact is in direct opposition to the narrative. So just to be clear, if you genuinely believe that Mike isn't important, or that the writers hate him, or don't care about him, or that his story "takes away" from any other character's - ESPECIALLY WILL'S - you are simply wrong.

In s1 and s2 Mike is established as an extremely caring person. He's loving, loyal, brave, intelligent, and trying his best. He is also established to be hot headed, someone who speaks without thinking quite often, someone who is capable of hurting his friends despite that being the last thing he wants to do. He is all of these things and more. He is a human. He is a kid. So in s3, when suddenly he is entirely different, it is completely logical to assume that there is a reason for that. He did not just wake up one day and decide he wanted to be an asshole, push Will away, make his friends feel abandoned, and echo the same sentiments their bullies held. Something is happening with him. He has so much going on in his head and it is painfully obvious. He's holding something in, he's hiding from everyone and from himself. We see glimpses of what he's trying to hide after Will calls him out on his behavior. Will gets through to him. Mike is usually unresponsive to tough love, except for when it's coming from Will. After their fight, it is obvious that he's trying to be better. But he still doesn't wanna face certain things, and he doesn't know how to navigate that. Because he's 13 years old.

There is a reason for all of that internal conflict. There is a reason it comes pouring out of him at certain times. He's crumbling. He is quite literally falling apart because he's holding on to too much. It's not a stretch to assume that, it just takes basic media literacy. Why would the writers have Mike act this way if he was just supposed to be a one dimensional character? Why would Finn be directed to portray Mike the way he does if there was nothing more going on? There are times where Mike looks like he's in physical pain because of his internal conflict. There is a reason for that. And acknowledging that DOES NOT mean people are taking away from Will. That's the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Do y'all seriously not understand that more than one character can have emotionally complex storylines? Genuinely asking, is this a new concept for you?

Will's love for Mike

Will is head over heels in love with Mike. That is very much established. So when you're dismissing the emotional depth of Mike's individual arc because you think acknowledging it "takes away from Will" you are actually diminishing the significance of a huge aspect of Will's emotional arc. By taking away the significance of Mike, you take away from the significance of Will.

Let's do a quick recap of the very significant role Mike has played in Will's entire life:

Mike is Will's first friend.

They have grown up together and it can be assumed that they've reached important milestones together.

Mike has always been a safe person for Will. He's been a constant in Will's very chaotic and unfair life. Until the summer of '85, Mike had always been something good in Will's life. (That's not to say he is no longer something good, but it can be assumed that the summer of '85 is the first time Mike has been a causal factor in Will's unhappiness)

When Will went missing, Mike did not hesitate to search for him. It wasn't even a question of if. The moment he knew Will was missing he knew exactly what he'd be doing that night. He spearheaded the search amongst the party. He was the leader.

When Will came back, Mike was the only person that didn't treat him like he was gonna break. He cared for him, and he was there for him, but he didn't treat him differently; Will tells us as much. Which means we can infer that the way Mike was with Will in s2 - how gentle and loving he was - was nothing new. He had just always been like that.

When Will was possessed, Mike stayed by his side. Even when it was scary, even when it could've gotten him killed, he stayed. Because once again, for him, it wasn't even a question. That's just where he knew he needed to be. He was in the shed when they were trying to get through to Will. He was set apart from Lucas and Dustin, but he also wasn't equated to family. And his retelling of the story of the day they first met was the final push Will needed to find a way to communicate.

After a year of things being "weird" between them, Mike tells Will that he didn't deserve to be treated the way he had been. Mike tells him that he wants them to be okay again, and for the rest of the season he puts in the work.

Things get rough in s3, and at the beginning of s4, and despite all of that, Will confesses his love (albeit veiled). In a moment where Mike is feeling awful about himself, he tells him that he loves him and needs him, and he tells him why. And to him it doesn't matter that he's breaking his own heart to do it, because it's Mike. Mike, who makes him feel like he's not a mistake at all, and that he's better for being different. For Will, there was no other option. The person he loves was hurting and he knew how to help, and so he did.

Mike is the first person Will tells about Vecna still being alive. Because they're back to being a team. He knows he can trust Mike, and Mike seems to be very determined to prove him right.

SO.

These are all real and canon aspects of Mike's presence in Will's life. Will falling in love with Mike isn't something that just happened for no reason. Will fell in love with Mike because of who Mike is. When you acknowledge that, and when you acknowledge the reasons they've set out for why Will loves him - the reasons Will literally told us - you can better understand Will. But when you dismiss all of these things about Mike, you are dismissing a large portion of Will's emotional and romantic arc. You aren't being a Will Warrior. You are erasing so much of him and his feelings and his lived experience. That is not the hill you wanna die on.

Will loves a person. Not a feeling. Yes, he says that Mike makes him feel like he's not a mistake and that he's better for being different. But that's not why he loves him. He feels that way because he loves him.

Mike is a fully fleshed out character with his own feelings and struggles and fears and traumas and motivations. He's not a plot device. He's not just an accessory to Will's arc. He's not a character that was written only to be Will's love interest. He's Will's love interest because he's Mike.

If Mike didn't matter, and if Mike didn't play a significant role in byler, then they would be able to write in a love interest for Will in s5 and have it be somewhat satisfying. But they can't do that. Will's love for Mike has so much depth because Mike has so much depth. It is genuinely crazy that this has to be stated and that I have to back up this claim because it is simply a canon fact.

So yes, the rain fight affects Mike's character development and his involvement in it is important. Yes, the van scene literally could not exist without Mike and therefore his involvement in it is incredibly important. Yes, every single byler moment has an impact on Mike, and Mike has an impact on it because they are BYLER moments. Yes, Mike will have a lot of significant moments - with Will AND on his own - in s5 because his arc deserves and needs as much attention as Will's in order to execute byler endgame in a satisfying way.

No, none of these facts negate Will's importance or take away from his story. If anything, they add to it because Mike and Will's arcs are corresponding and intertwined.

Mike's struggles

To name a few

Dysfunctional family

Has been bullied his entire life

Extreme self worth issues

Inferiority complex

Hero complex

Lack of self preservation

Suicidal ideation (has been on display since SEASON ONE)

Internalized homophobia

To get this out of the way: Mike's internalized homophobia is allowed to be discussed. Discussion of it is not the dismissal of Will's internalized homophobia. Surprise surprise, two queer kids in the 80s have internalized homophobia! Who'd'a thunk it?! Their internalized homophobia presents in different ways but it is there for both of them. I personally relate to the way Mike's is portrayed way more than I relate to Will's. So why is it that we can't discuss it without being accused of erasing Will's experience? Or without people saying that we're "copy and pasting" Will's story? Because quite frankly, that feels dismissive of my - and likely many others' - real and lived experience. So please for the love of all things that are good just stop with this talking point because it will never hold up.

Moving on

I'm not gonna do a full breakdown of all of Mike's issues. Because contrary to popular belief, there are a lot. And that would be exhausting and I'd get carried away and it's not the point of this post. The point of this post is to defend the acknowledgement and mere existence of them.

If you're a byler that for some reason thinks Mike only exists to be Will's love interest and his trophy as compensation for his trauma, let me ask you this: Have you considered how awful it would be to have a queer character's individuality and emotional depth completely ignored for the sake of focusing on the queer character that "really matters"?

If Mike's own issues, with his queer identity and otherwise, aren't thoroughly explored... What's the point of all this? If Mike really is insignificant in this storyline and his individuality has no effect on it.. where's the emotional payoff? If his perspective doesn't matter... Why have the writers gone to such great lengths to ensure we don't have that piece of the puzzle yet?

Analyzing Mike and understanding Mike is very important to understanding byler. Once again, I think it's crazy that this needs to be said.

I also think it's important to note that characters can have similar struggles. There's no rule against that. Just like real life. Characters having similar struggles is not a bad thing, and acknowledging that their struggles are similar is not dismissive of either character. We're talking about STRANGER THINGS. Jonathan and Nancy's thing is "we've got shared trauma". They have literal matching scars. Shared experiences are some of the main building blocks for this show's romances. Byler has a TON of shared experience, basically their entire lives. We already know that. So wouldn't it be so beautiful for them to learn that they've been struggling with the same thing this whole time? That the entire time they felt alone in what they were going through when really they had each other and they never even knew it? Wouldn't it be so beautiful for Mike's acceptance of Will and Will's love for him was also a step toward accepting himself? Wouldn't it be beautiful for Will to learn that his love makes Mike feel like he's not a mistake? None of that would be in the realm of possibility if Mike didn't have emotional depth and if his individuality wasn't important.

And that leads me to my concluding point...

A satisfying execution of byler endgame hinges on Mike's individual emotional arc being handled well

God I hope this isn't controversial to say. I sincerely hope most people haven't forgotten that.

Here's a hypothetical:

Imagine season five has been released. You're watching it, and you notice that Mike has been relegated to just a supporting character for Will. We don't get any of his perspective. We don't get any explanation for his s3 and early s4 behavior. His breakup with El doesn't have any real tangible effect on him, it's really just used for El's character development. We never see him pining for Will like we saw Will pining for him. And then suddenly Mike is learning about the painting and then suddenly he's confessing his love and then suddenly byler is canon and official.

Now wouldn't that just be awful? Wouldn't that be unfair to the audience, to Mike, and to Will? For us to never learn just how much Mike had to go through to even be able to say it out loud? For Mike to never get the chance to prove to himself through word and action that he is the heart? For Will to never get an explanation for why things did get so "weird" between them? It would leave us with one big, nagging question: What was the point of everything Mike has said and done throughout the entire show if his conclusion is that lackluster?

Disregarding Mike for a moment (I know that's incredibly ironic given what the entire point of this is but just bear with me) - how would that be a satisfying conclusion for Will? I mean, Will's s4 arc was basically dedicated to showcasing his struggle with his sexuality and with his love for Mike. We were shown just how deep that love is. We were shown how patient, unselfish, unwavering, and beautiful that love is. So how would it be satisfying for Mike's love for him to not be shown with just as much depth? How would it be satisfying for Mike to just be a one dimensional character whose s5 arc is essentially "break up with girlfriend, wait to find out best friend is in love with him, say he loves him back, then they live happily ever after"? I think Will deserves for his love to be returned with the same intensity at which he gives it. And I think it should be clear to the audience and to Will himself.

Back to Mike!

Mike has been through so much shit. I don't think anyone that is denying that actually believes he hasn't been through shit. Because you'd actually have to watch the show on mute and with your eyes closed to think this kid hasn't had just the worst time. It's so ignorant to act as if this stuff hasn't affected him. There's stuff we've seen but there's stuff we also haven't seen. There are issues he has that date back to his childhood pre-canon. Just like Will, Mike has been a queer kid growing up in 80s smalltown conservative america. Acknowledging the pain he 100% carries because of that is so important. His perspective has been withheld from us, not because it's unimportant, but because it's the final puzzle piece. If we had Mike's perspective in s4, byler wouldn't be a "will they won't they" (even though we all know they will). If we got his perspective in s4, byler would be a "100% certain without a doubt they will". But the thing about his perspective is that it's so much more than just loving Will. It's fear. It's pain. It's insecurity. It's doubt. It's the belief that his happiness just doesn't matter all that much. All of that has to be explored. All of that has to be laid out in the open for us in order for byler endgame to feel earned. Mike's emotional payoff will lead to byler's emotional payoff.

Mike has known he loves Will. In s5 we will see him make a deliberate and active effort to overcome the things keeping him from doing something about it. And then he will do something about it.

And so when it finally happens. When both Mike and Will finally know that their feelings are requited, and when their arcs end with us knowing that they will face whatever life has in store for them together, that will feel earned. That will feel like the logical conclusion for both of them. Not just for Mike. Not just for Will. For both.

And Mike is just as important to that conclusion as Will is.

And one last thing...

Some people are going to talk about Mike more. Some people are going to talk about Will more. Because newsflash, people have preferences. Some people just relate to Mike more, or they find his emotional arc extremely compelling, or they just like him. It isn't an attack on Will or any other character. No one is saying Mike is more important than any other character (I'm sure there are people that say that but they are a vocal minority and they are simply wrong). We are just saying that he is important. If you wanna engage in media analysis, please understand that "main character" or "central character" does not mean "only important character" and "only character that should be analyzed". If you wanna talk about Will and only Will, that's fine. But you don't get to act like people that talk about other characters are doing a disservice to your fave, because that's not how any of this works.

[bylrlve]

Warning! Potential Spoilers for Stranger Things 5!

A compilation of recent tweets made by Alex and others about the mileven ‘making out in a field’ leak. Alex is insisting that this scene is separate from the sequence involving them talking on the rooftop, the scene which was leaked as a video back in January. According to 011scenes this scene happens ‘at the beginning’ aka in episode one.

The issue? Alex’s sources are people who speak to paps (which she lied about in answering a cc question; either that or she’s clueless), and who deliberately feed her inconsequential things production dgaf abiut because it distracts from the juicy shit e.g., what Mike and Will are doing. She was told ‘Robin and Will have a scene’ and that morphed into ‘Will is in his unrequited mopey Steve era, Jonathan and Robin don’t share scenes’, etc. The source said nothing about Byler being finished or about passionate makeouts.

I’m suspicious of the second anon’s claim about Finn, as Noah is straight-up went on TikTok live right before filming commenced in January to read out byler endgame and Byler kiss comments lmao. The bit about the love triangle being kept under wraps seems accurate enough - they’re openly passing out scraps of mileven to leakers to pass onto Alex, and it’s pretty clear they didn’t care about that mileven video hitting national news website in the Uk (daily mail). Byler? On lockdown. The only thing we know is the hospital stuff and that’s due to specific leakers, and even then it’s not that much. It is clearly a big question going into s5 for the GA, so it being kept tightly guarded is unsurprising.

The context of the kiss will be interesting, regardless of if it’s pro-mileven or somehow anti-. Alex indicates that it’s only them present in the field - BUT she’s also said that she outright leaves Will out of ‘leaks’ and gave the example of Max, Lucas, and Will having a scene but her only reporting Lumax having a scene, so… S4 mileven was a concerted effort to show that the characters had matured from s3, and that their fight was more serious. They only kissed once, and that briefly, and were… unaffectionate at the end of the season, to say the very least. The reversion to kissing in broad daylight, in an apocalyptic setting when El will be mostly hiding with Hopper from the military, feels a little out of character - and will certainly be jarring tonally and thematically.

Alex received this dm ^ back in February (discussed in my first leak post), which stated that hopper is annoyed by mike’s continuing presence around el. I and many others (including Alex iirc) dismissed it, as Hopper and Mike are on good terms at the end of s4. If Mike and El are still doing reckless things in s4, and if the old pattern of isolating El from others just to kiss re-emerges, though… The veracity of this is very shaky: the time skip occurs gradually over episode one, not in between episodes 1 and 2.

It’s important to note that many leaks are undoubtedly missing context. Just today, Alex brought up how she was right about Mike ignoring Will at the airport, about their fight, and about the airport kiss. Yes, she was, but she lacked the tonal subtext of the scene itself, which portrayed Mike’s behaviour as inexplicably phony - and of course, she lacked the lynchpin of this plot, which is that Will is in romantic love with Mike. She completely missed that, and it meant she missed every important aspect of this plotline.

Byrhop, a highly reliable st acc who’s closely following filming, was able to ascertain that Vickie is at the farm.

Lastly, I want to go over everything I know to try and map a trajectory. The Byers are living in the radio station before it’s overrun by military and they flee to the Turnbow farm - I personally am not sure of when exactly this occurs. There is a leaked hospital file showing that Karen Wheeler is attacked by a demogorgan. The file is dated as 1/1987 but it could be a prop error, as I’ve seen claims that she’s attacked when Holly is taken..

As we know, according to the leaked episode 2 title, Holly Wheeler goes missing. This likely occurs at the end of episode one, but the chronology is unclear. Karen being attacked could happen here, and I’ve seen claims that it happens in episode 2. Mike and El kiss in episode one, and as I’ve said this has been overblown greatly by Alex. The chronology of this is also unclear. At some point in episode one, Mike and Dustin are at the high school and interact with the jocks. Mike is wearing the same outfit he wears on the rooftop - dark trousers, blue and black shirt with a yellow collar, etc. As this is what he wore in the official pic released by Ross of him in his room, I am speculating that this is the first outfit he wears in the story proper, after the last time jump to November 1987, and that he may wear it throughout episode 2 as well

In episode 2, Mike, Nancy, and Karen have a plotline at the hospital. From official BTS pics, we know Robin and Vickie are there as well. The above anon does not mention Mike being injured, and its description of Karen’s mindset does not tally either with her having being attacked by a demogorgan prior or with Holly being abducted. It’s likely that they have partially but not totally accurate information; or else it’s a point in favour of Holly being taken and Karen being attacked after this happens, at the end of episode 2. I have confirmation that Mike is injured in episode 2, as are several other people - I discussed this in a post a few days ago - please discount the forehead kiss anon section of that post. This was confirmed by an extra who played a nurse on the scheme and by a different source later. The second source confirms that Will shows up last, and is crying and blaming himself for what happened. - I also have confirmation that El doesn’t show up to the hospital at all. The nurse extra also confirmed that Mike and Will ‘share scenes’ although he was not present for those so can’t speak as to what happened in them - I don’t have an image of that text so didn’t include it yesterday.

The forehead kiss anon is definitely not real (check @will80sbyers) but the rest seems to be.

Lastly, Atlanta-filming insinuates that the m*leven rooftop scene occurs after the hospital subplot. It’s unknown how they came to this conclusion.

To summarise: m*leven kiss in episode one, potentially during one of the staggered time jumps (my speculation) and the short rooftop conversation between them likely in either episode one or two immediately before something involving Hopper and Joyce occurs down in the field that alarms El. I’ve seen conflicting into on when Holly is abducted - either episode one or episode two. In episode 2 Mike, Karen, and Nancy go to the hospital for plot reasons. If this occurs after Holly goes missing, it is likely to be related to that. I am speculating that Holly vanishing, whenever it happens, accelerates the byler plotline, as Mike will more-than-likely seek out Will for advice, reassurance, information. In episode 2, Mike gets injured somehow at the hospital, along with several other people in a small-scale mass-casualty event, and ends up being admitted to the hospital. As I’ve said, it seems to be rock-solid that Will arrives and is crying and blaming himself for what happened, and Will stays with him but El is nowhere to be found in this plotline. We know from BTS pics that Robin and vickie are also there, and I’ve seen claims that Jonathan shows up to be with Nancy, but have no proof or knowledge of the providence of such claims, so… take that for what it is. It is pretty certain, as far as I know, that El is not there.

One possibility is that Will is possessed at least temporarily in 501-2. Perhaps there’s another superspy, ‘it’s a trap’ situation? Will Byers would never be reckless with the safety of Mike Wheeler or his family… but I bet Vecna and the mindflayer are just itching to attack the one salvation standing between them and Will. Something to muse on.

The timing of the rooftop scene is very important. El not showing up at the hospital is unlikely to happen after it. The scene is very clearly about affirming their relationship- whether as lovers or as friends. It’s likely that she’s distracted by Max, who is her main plot, but this is a narrative. El not being present for Mike, while Will is there and crying and staying by his side? That is telling of a potential rift that opens up in their relationship between episode one and two. There is a pattern of problems arising in their relationship in episode twos. In s2 El reached out to Mike during his call but he walked away while an ominous stinger played. In s3 they broke up at the end of episode 2. In s4 they had their disastrous roller rink date.

A few days ago, I gif’d the rooftop scene, and speculated that they’re discussing being friends, and that El apologises for not being there and Mike says ‘No. You should have been.’ before basically saying that he’s okay because Will was and “you’re all friends to me.” The ending of s4, to me, potentially marks a shift in Mike’s attitude to El, as much as it does for hers to him. In the hospital she seeks him out by resting a head on his shoulder, and she did speak briefly with him prior about Brenner, but he offers her no comfort beyond a stiff arm around her. When they arrive at the cabin, he walks in with the other boys instead of staying with her - as shes’s clearly very nervous and emotional about reentering the cabin. Finally, as we have all observed, she directs an almost angry look at Will and Mike before stomping into her room and slamming the door - a parallel to s3 after the phone call with Mike where she knew he was lying. When it pans back to Mike, and Will asks if they’ve talked? He rolls his eyes. Unlike in 403, he does not seek her out and push through her self-isolation. He leaves her be. This, coming from Mike the Paladin, suggests that he’s kind of done with trying.

El’s attitude has been convincingly dismissed by M*levens as simple grief over Max causing her to retreat as she always does. It is bizarre, however, that the monologue did nothing at all to make her feel she could rely on Mike, and much more so that he’s very apathetic.

I posit that they might, maybe, fall into old habits of passivity and inertia and string the relationship along over the time jump. Perhaps the kiss is from one of the interim jumps between March 1986 and November 1987? I could see El having too much on her plate to really address it, and feeling that she doesn’t want to push him away - after all, he did give the big damn speech. The kiss could be a parallel to Boyce and Stancy. If that Hopper leak is accurate (doubtful), perhaps they fall back into habits of clinginess and immaturity while still being deeply unhappy. Nurse extra stated that Mike is no longer trying to be normal, and that he’s discovering himself, being himself again, and being the support he once was - the wording rather implies that it means being the support to Will.

Of course, I could be wrong, and it could be that they’re doing very well, and that the kiss is indeed as happy and loving as Alex paints it out to be… but I am skeptical bc of the hospital, and because of El the brave protector not rushing to her boyfriend’s side. It’s simply too early to say. If my musing on whether Will was possessed and effectively set Mike up (against his will ofc) is correct, and if my lip-reading is correct, Mike speaking affectionately of Will here could be due to the fact that he’s intimately witnessed Will being possessed, and he knows Will would never do something like that on purpose.

Finally, definitely worth noting that there have been no signs of any NPC love interests. Will’s storylines are being protected well from leakers, so people could be missing something, but there has been no indication of it. What we are getting, though, is a focus on Will’s love of Mike, and his selfless devotion.

All of this is incredibly shaky, and I’m interested to hear your guys’ opinions on alternate sequences of events. Whatever the truth, clearly m*leven is inconsequential to the production, as it’s being deliberately leaked to distract from the real juicy stuff.

Oh, and I just want to wrap up by mentioning this bit of idiocy. Someone in Alex’s inbox sincerely thought that the production actually kills fields they want to look dead-looking, rather than editing it. And Alex agreed.

[will80sbyers]

STurn (around look at what you see!)

or, the post where I speculate about Finn's playlist STurn being a series of hints for Mike's arc in season 5 and how this brings us to Byler endgame in the finale!! This is all speculation for fun, I don't know if it was intended to be a playlist about byler but there are so many things that make me think so and we have too much free time before season 5 so why not talk about it....

WARNING: It's gonna be long lol

Reasons why I think this playlist is about st5:

The name, obviously with ST in it but it also can be used as a play of words with '' turn around look at what you see '' or ST urn which is pretty clever if it's intentional, and I think Finn writes songs pretty often so he would play with words like this IMO

The third song is called '' After the Earthquake '' and the s4 earthquake was pretty important - I also have a theory that there are going to be other earthquakes in season 5 because the two worlds are merging with each other

It seems Finn has a habit of making playlists for the characters he plays and leaving them public

The songs were added 2 weeks ago and this means he was actively filming when he decided to make that

Reasons why I think this playlist is related to Will specifically:

Many of the songs and their meanings make more sense for a queer storyline, and Mike can only have that with Will

The cover of the Beatles song has them all with the same haircut as Will that everybody makes fun of online and I think he may have put it because of that also, I would tbh

The possible ''Turn around and look at what you see'' was sung before the scene in season 3 where Mike and Will are sharing a sweet moment about d&d and there were already plenty of speculations in the byler fandom about how that song was choosen for them... - Rhymes that keep their secrets / Will unfold behind the clouds / And there upon a rainbow / Is the answer to a neverending story

The last song is the same last song in the playlist that was made for Will by the writers during season 2 ... so many ''coincidences''

Now let's start to see what I can theorize from the lyrics of some of these songs...

I already made posts about some of the songs, and it's pretty clear that some of the songs have an obvious queer meaning like the song number 7 :

"Don't ask me to explain" by Of Montreal was written by a bisexual person and has clear hints about sexuality and I quote from that site

« The lyrics of "Don't Ask Me to Explain" by of Montreal present a complex and multilayered exploration of identity, sexuality, and social norms. The singer of the song struggles to connect with others and feel authentic in their own skin. They question whether it's possible to truly know someone else and love them when they are hiding parts of themselves. The line "Who are you hiding you from, across the table with a penny in each eye?" suggests that the person they are speaking to is not being truthful or open with them, and they are struggling to understand why. The singer also shares their own desires and fears, confessing that they would like to marry all of their close friends and live in a big house by the sea. This unconventional desire goes against societal norms and expectations, which is reinforced by the line "I'd really like to, but I'm just too shy". The singer is torn between their desires and the fear of social rejection and judgment. The line "Who will be watching my body when I sleep? Who will I believe in?" indicates a sense of vulnerability and a lack of trust towards others. The chorus repeats throughout the song, serving as a refrain and emphasizing the singer's refusal to explain or justify themselves to others. They feel that they should not be forced to explain or apologize for their desires, beliefs, or identity. Overall, "Don't Ask Me to Explain" is a powerful and introspective song that invites the listener to reflect on their own struggles with authenticity, identity, and societal expectations. »

I think this song fits perfectly for my interpretation of Mike as he doesn't yet know that Will is not being honest with him, and he doesn't get why Will is lying, he can't fully fall for him before he knows the secrets Will is hiding, he's also afraid of going against social norms, but the song to me seems to talk about someone that fights against it and overcomes these fears and wants to be authentic to themselves and that's why they are asking the other person to do the same, I think it conveys a longing feeling like the person wants to let themselves fall for this other person, but the other person is hiding themselves, and they want both of them to be honest about their feelings. In my opinion this song is about Mike wanting to love Will but waiting for him to be honest before that can happen, because he can't fall in love consciously if he doesn't even know it's a possibility- that's why he needs to discover the lie about the painting, but most of all Will must confess his feelings!!!

Here's the line to line meaning, and I'll add byler context lol obviously you have to adapt to the situation, there is not a literal correspondence like I said for the other analysis of the playlists, it's just the general meaning because the songs were not made for byler but in another context, so the details can't be perfect - you just adapt the general meaning with what fits when you choose songs for it:

How will I ever know you enough to love you

If you're hiding who you are?

Don't ask me to explain.

Who are you hiding you from,

Across the table with a penny in each eye?

Don't ask me to explain.

Will must be honest with Mike about who he is and his feelings so that byler can happen, the line about someone hiding from them when they are sitting across the table from them so they can look at them face to face makes me think about the fact that Will in the van lied to Mike to his face directly.

I'd like to marry all of my close friends,

And live in a big house together by an angry sea

in the context of byler this can be interpreted as in Mike's desire to live with Will that's one of his closest friends and live together even if outside the sea of ''normal'' people are angry at them, they are sheltered in the house

Am I the devil's marbles, don't move on without me

Who will be watching my body when I sleep? Who will I believe in? How am I supposed to let it show when I don't even know?

I think in this part the singer is showing that even if they want this person and love them, they are disrupting the peace with their request to be honest and even if they don't want them to move on they are saying that they can't show their love when they don't even know how they feel themselves, could be applied to both Mike & Will

Besides, I don't want to be the one whose coming out first,

I'd really like to, but I'm just too shy

Don't ask me to explain

The singer is asking the other person to ''come out first'' because they are too shy/scared to do it first, obviously it's about asking the other person to come out with their real feelings, but it's clearly a queer phrasing about the ''coming out'' because the song is talking about a queer relationship... and since the person that wrote it is bi I think we can say that with 97% of probability lol

It's so easy to lie to myself

And pretend that I could love you, but I can't

I think this part is about how the singer wants in part to just love them and let go of the need to make the other person be honest, but they can't be truly themselves and be in real love unless both of them are honest, so ''they can't'' just let go of this need, and they keep asking the other person to take that step with them!

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But let's go back, the first song in the playlist is Ballad of a Texas King by Cut Worms and this song fits Mike's fear of the unknown and the changes he will go through in season 5 - his personal arc even not counting Will in the equation, Mike is scared of things changing around him... (this song also briefly mentions California)

As the writer of the song said in his personal site:

On “Ballad of a Texas King” Clarke sings, “Hey kid come along… something is wrong… I believe you know… All this to say, only one way that this can go…” It’s as if he’s reaching out to his younger self, letting him know the changes are inevitable. How do we hang on to a dream? How do we not lose ourselves in a world that is lost? The only way out of a nightmare is to keep going.

-------------------------------------------------------

The second song is the one with the cover that reminds us of Will lmao - '' What you're doing to me'' by the Beatles

This song is in the same context as the others about asking your lover to stop lying so you can be with them - Mike asking Will in this context, Mike is his true love

I've been waiting here for you

Wondering what you're gonna do

And should you need a love that's true - It's me

Please stop your lying

You got me crying, girl

Why should it be so much to ask of you

What you're doing to me?

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Song number 3 is "After the earthquake" by Alvvays and I found this online that it's interesting not only for the references to someone in a coma and the earthquake but metaphorically it could be applied to Mike finding out about the painting lie and his world being turned upside down, maybe by a fight with Will that doesn't get resolved because something happens before it can be...

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Song number 4 is Promises I've Made by Emitt Rhodes and I think this could be Mike still pining after Will even after they have their fight, if the fight happens before the time jump maybe he spends one year with Will trying to distance himself/or just not trying anything because he thinks there's no point and Mike trying to repress all his feelings for Will, or alternatively we can say he already started this process after season 3, and he's trying to just repress it but can't

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Song number 5 is '' Angst in my pants'' by Sparks

But when you think

But when you think you've made it disappear

You're sure you made it disappear

And you've still got angst in your pants

I hope it doesn't show

It'll go away (go away)

It's just a passin' phase

It'll go away (go away)

I hope it doesn't show

It'll go away (go away)

Give it a hundred years

It won't go away

pretty self explanatory, Mike is trying to repress his sexual feelings for Will and trying to convince himself ''it's just a phase'' and he's not queer... personally I feel like the song IS about queerness because it's from 1982 and there's a literal man dressed as a woman, like.... pls

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Song number 6 is ''The Better side'' by Audiotree and The Slaps and I couldn't find the text online so I have transcribed it myself but if there's some lyric wrong let me know because I wasn't sure for some words:

You're never gonna see the sun

you're never gonna see me run

and I say oh baby don't make me stay out too late

imma go into sleep I know you'd cry

and I'm trying to keep you by my warmth

You're never gonna see my eyes

You're coloring other skies you want to

and I say Oh baby don't make me do the falling when I'm drinking of you

you're on the better side

you're always the better one for me

I'm trying staying alive, keep my head on the better side when you're far away and you're horny as hell

and you're all that I need

I'm not gonna miss you anymore

I interpret this as Mike pining for Will again and how Will is the better choice for him and the one that he truly needs

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Song number 8 is ''What do you want me to do?'' by Pointed Sticks

This song makes me think about Mike & El and I think it could be sort of a break up song between them although I don't think it's literal but more ''angry after a break up scene - vibes''

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Another song that I think is about Mike x El is ''Substitute'' by The Who, song number 9 :

I interpret this song as a guy that tried to change himself for the girl he likes but he's never enough for her even changing everything about himself - so not a real relationship based on knowing each other deeply and he's tired of pretending to be someone else

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Song number 10 is ''The Rebel Kind'' by Modernettes

I think this song is about someone embracing ''being different'' and wanting to stick with the ''rebel'' kind, the people that rebel to society's standards and expectations, Mike wants to be part of that no matter what happens

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Song number 11 '' Block Rockin' Beats'' by The Chemical brothers... is almost without words but it's funny to me how you could put duffers instead of chemical there lol anyway it could be just a vibe song to prepare for the finale, maybe something action packed happens and this song is good for a fight scene...

right before the ending that as we said before is the same song that Will's playlist had at the end... song number 12 is a love song, a winning the love of your life song!!!

''Just what I needed'' by The Cars has the vibe of a song you would hear at the end of the movie right after the main couple finally gets together and they are happy!

'Cause when you're standin' oh so near

I kinda lose my mind, yeah

oh so you mean...

you'll go crazy (together) ?

[hnbka]

BYLER and SUBSTITUTING

like this:

Because, I mean, without you, we'd all fall apart. Even me. Especially me. These past few months, I've been so lost without you. It's just, I'm so different from other people, and……when you're…when you're different, sometimes……I feel like a mistake. But you make me feel like I'm not a mistake at all.

which is the most OBVIOUS substitution in byler history because it is clear the audience is meant to pick up on it. it's not subtle. but-- mike does this too.

“It's not my fault I don't like girls. I'm not trying to be a jerk. Okay? But we're not kids anymore. I mean, what did I think, really? That we were never gonna get girlfriends? We were just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?”

the difference is mike is projecting onto will rather than a side speaker. and you might think this isn't supposed to be used as a substitution for himself. but will is not the odd one out here. dustin wanted to play games and he had a girlfriend. like, logically, its two v two because they knew dustin would also want to play dnd. (and i'm not assuming, they say it in the fight.)

another important line here: we're not kids anymore.

okay, michael wheeler, let's look at byler speeches from when you guys were kids.

Do you remember the first day that we met? It was... It was the first day of kindergarten. I knew nobody. I had no friends and... I just felt so alone and so scared, but... I saw you on the swings and you were alone, too. You were just swinging by yourself. And I just walked up to you and... I asked. I asked if you wanted to be my friend. And you said yes. You said yes. It was the best thing I've ever done.

nothing's in red. nothing's crossed out or changed. because mike said exactly what he meant here (hoorah!). back when they were kids when they could actually tell each other their emotions and feelings because it didn't have to masquerade a romantic love. that love was normal to them until it was ostracized through internalized and externalized homophobia.

and what is stranger things at its heart??

a sci-fi show with villains and superpowers and lore YES BUT BEYOND THAT AND INTO THE CHARACTER ARCS

it's a show about kids growing up (and also jopper).

so? so, the change in their substitution says a lot. it says how hard they are hiding their feelings from each other, how it increases as they get older. which leads us back to their true feelings, aka season 2 ish, where they were pretty openly in love, in my opinion. holding hands, comforting each other, making freaking love confessions as seen above.

and juxtapose that with season 4, with all its red and changes in meaning?? we as viewers should understand that nothing the boys say is what they mean. they are hiding!!!

aka byler endgame

[glisten-inthedark]

Ok ok, but watching people's reactions to Stranger Things on YT and going through the comment section has brought a lot into perspective.

Because like, I saw the glimpses of Byler right from the start. And I'll be honest, I don't really think much beyond surface level but it was hard for me not to notice the parallels that were being developed right from the start.

Mike is the only person - besides Joyce - that was hellbent on finding Will and that at points acted like she did, just knowing things without any evidence. Mike's love for Will could only be compared to the love of a mother to her child, and that should tell is something.

Will calling for Mike - like Nancy called for Jonathan - and them being able to find each other when we know for a fact that when Eleven called, Mike couldn't hear her.

Mike being more connected to Will than he is to El. Mike knew Will was upset, he knew that something was up and yet somehow he can't tell when his girlfriend of over a year is lying?

I could go on (and I might in the near future). So for me, it was clear that there things Mike didn't want to deal with it but I noticed that the GA (and I'm basing this on the YT reactions I've found and the comment section) would have their flaggers basted if Byler becomes endgame because well... Heteronormativeness.

So I guess my point is: To me, it feels like Byler was their purpose from the start (and I can also talk about that), but people didn't noticed because Mike was dating El. So, how cam the writers make sure the GA sees that Mike has been dealing with a lot of shit, trauma and fear and make it obvious that it has always been Will?

I can't 100% guarantee they'll be endgame, but there's just too much evidence for me to think they'd waste their time in something that isn't going to happen.

What are your guys thoughts on it?

[mileven11forever]

Hey! I disagree with you completely but I respect that you seem to be a kind and respectful Mileven. So I’m curious.

What would you say to the idea that if Mileven is endgame, based on the way the story has been written especially in S4 (with Will being in every Mileven shot, Will’s painting inspiring Mike to monologue to El, paralleling Byler to Rovickie and other ships, just the whole story of building out Will’s feelings for Mike over 4 seasons in what would be a slowburn rejection if you’re right), the Duffers have inherently crafted a homophobic and problematic story?

Most Bylers don’t just believe Byler endgame makes the most sense for the story, nor do we just believe it would be queerbaiting because of promotion outside the show. We believe the story itself is deeply problematic when viewed through a Mileven endgame lens.

The idea that this kid Will would go through all of this suffering and that they’d emphasize the bond between Mike and Will in this way… the idea that Will would say “I’m not gonna fall in love” in S3 because he doesn’t believe there’s love for gay kids like him… the idea of the painting veiled confession… the idea that the writers would have Byler literally end the season together side by side alongside other canon couples… only to have Mike reject Will in S5?

We believe that to be horribly homophobic writing, so to us it’s not simply a question of which ship we like more like other ship wars in history, but a real moral line in the sand. We believe it’s either Byler endgame, or the show falls apart, and the writers have explaining to do.

It’s not that hypothetical story of a gay kid falling in love with his straight best friend is homophobic, it’s the specific narrative choices that would be surrounding Mileven endgame in this context, each of them completely avoidabl, each of them specific decisions the writers made.

Additionally, Bylers believe Mileven endgame would A) make the show’s writing weaker and less meaningful, B) make the show make significantly less sense from a writing standpoint, and C) go against the main themes of the narrative.

Lastly, if Will were a girl, based on the way Mileven and Byler have both been written, there’s no way Milevens wouldn’t see the clear love triangle. The only reason it’s difficult for some to see it is because of heteronormativity and the idea that Mike is straight because he has a girlfriend. If you remove that, there aren’t any barriers to at least seeing the clear triangle.

Thoughts?

I honestly just disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with the story and the way it's being told. Will being in Mileven shots in season 4 is because it was from his POV in those moments. Will's painting didn't really inspire Mike's monologue, he just helped Mike find the courage to tell El how he really feels. And I don't really see the parallels people point out as being significant proof of anything. I do think Will's story will involve being rejected by Mike, while also being accepted by Mike as a friend. That's just what his story is, that's something a lot of queer people go through, there's nothing wrong with writing a character having to deal with and overcome that. I think it'll be an important part of Will's arc and character development. I don't see anything problematic or homophobic with any of that personally.

Yes, Will has suffered a lot unfortunately, but that's just his story, that's how life is for some people. He's unlucky and has just happened to be in these awful situations throughout his life, but that has nothing to do with Mike or his feelings. It's sad, but that's just how it is. Just like Will can't control how he feels about Mike, Mike can't control how he feels either, and that he loves El and just loves Will as a friend. It sucks that Will fell for his straight best friend, but that happens lots in real life too. And yeah, Will thinks he can't have love like everyone else because of his sexuality, and because of the time and place he lives in, which sucks, but also doesn't mean that he's automatically going to end up with his childhood crush. I think he should end up with someone eventually, but I just don't think it can be Mike. He needs to learn that he can have love and be loved, but just how he can't choose his sexuality, Mike can't either. They both can't change who they are, and that's ok.

I do think the painting will come up at some point and probably lead to Will's confession to Mike, but again, that's just Will finally sharing his feelings which has nothing to do with how Mike will respond. It'll be complicated, but Mike isn't going to just suddenly fall in love with Will when he finds out the truth about the painting.

And Mike and Will stand together at the end because they're friends. Just because the other pairs happen to be couples doesn't mean Byler is going to be endgame. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. I really don't understand when Bylers look so deep into little details like this and use that as evidence, it could literally mean nothing, or something other than Byler.

Once again, I don't think the writing choices the Duffers have made are homophobic, they just want to tell Will's story a certain way, and I don't see a problem with it.

I just don't agree. I think Mileven endgame is good writing, I think Byler endgame would make no sense. Mileven doesn't make the messages of the show any less meaningful in my opinion.

And yeah, I think that's probably true for some people. Heteronormativity is very prevalent and some people are definitely in denial about the obvious love triangle. I accept that there is a love triangle there, I just don't agree with a lot of people on how it will be resolved. Will likes Mike, El likes Mike, and Mike likes El. That's how I see it. I feel like the show has made this clear, and it's obvious which couple is actually happening in the canon story. Some Bylers just read a lot of meaning into things that I don't think was meant to be read like that.

If anyone has anything else to add, leave a comment or reblog this post.

[lordystrange]

Byler not becoming canon until the last season is the best move the Duffers could have made

I know many of us would have all wanted to see more build-up for byler in s3-4. We would have wanted mileven to already break up and to see inside Mike’s mind.

And while a gay romance definitely deserves not to be hid away and to be handled equally to straight ships, the Duffers had to choose either that or what they’re doing now.

And the thing they are doing now is making sure that all these heteronormative/homophobic viewers will be exposed to this gay romance in s5.

Because if Byler endgame was any more clear or seemed any more possible in the end of s4, certain people would start boycotting ST and not see s5 at all. Some of them already unsubscribed Netflix because Noah came out.

And we need those people to see Byler endgame. We need them to see queer couples on screen in a positive light. We need them to see that how the people/characters they know, like and relate to (Mike) can be queer. We need them to see happy endings for gay people.

The only way to get rid of homophobia and heteronormativity is to expose people to queer romance. And they wouldn’t have kept watching ST if Byler would have become canon/been implied to become canon earlier.

So as much as I would have loved to see more byler, I know this is for the best.

Also I’m pretty sure that they thought they made byler more clear in s4, but because they work so closely with it, they don’t see how the GA doesn’t see it

[teambyler]

"Byler Endgame, One Episode at a Time" - s5e6

Plot beats and scenes leading to a Byler endgame, one episode at a time, for Season 5 of Stranger Things. (This is just for fun! I have no insider knowledge!)

Also see Part 0, where I explain what I think a Byler Endgame has to address. Link to the previous episode.

s5e6

Some time after Mike and Will realize their feelings for each other, the other members of the party arrive at Hopper’s cabin. El is out front and shushes them with a finger to her lips. She quietly opens the door and everyone sees Mike and Will embracing, asleep, tears clearing tracks through the grime on their faces. Everyone is pleasantly surprised. Joyce thinks they're so adorable and immediately wants to walk in, but El stops her. They all wait outside. El gently wakes the two of them and everyone openly arrives a few minutes later. They take Will to the hospital for his arm.

The next night, back at the Wheeler house, Mike and Will are hanging out. Will can’t play Nintendo with his bad arm, but Will is telling what to do as he plays Final Fantasy. They name their party after the four original members of their group. Mike: “I like this.” “Like what?” “Just hanging out…” “Well we’ve always hung out.” “That’s the thing. We never... I never told how you feel.” He talks about how wrapped up in El he was, so he could hide from his own feelings. The year Will was away, he tried to call more but the phone was always busy. He thought Will had moved on, had made a painting for a girl. Will: "Well, I could have reached out more too." A pause. Will: “It’s sad that we lost so much time…” They linger a while on this thought. Mike turns to Will with determination. “I’ll make it up to you Will. Or I’ll try.” They should do something together tomorrow night. Will smiles: “Are you asking me out on a date?” Mike stands up and extends out his hand in a medieval bow: “May I?” Will stands: “Oh yes, my paladin.” and kisses Mike on the cheek. Mike playfully touches the spot Will kissed like he's just been kissed by a rock star.

Afterward, Mike goes to his room and digs out some old things. We see some of the toys he decided not to throw away in s2. He looks at one of them in particularly fondly, and sets it aside.

The next morning, Ted is already gone. Karen has made pancakes and eggs, and she is on the phone talking with Joyce. Mike and Will reach for the syrup at the same time and touch hands, and they both look at each other slowly let go. Mike: “You can’t open it anyway.” Will laughs: “That’s for sure.” Mike opens the bottle and pours syrup on Will’s eggs. Will is blushing and smiling. We zoom in on Karen who sees this all take place…

At school the next day, Dustin and Lucas tell them they need to have an "emergency party meeting.” In private, they tell them “We know” and before Mike and Will can protest they say it’s totally cool and it’s a beautiful thing. In their party they stand up for each other, full stop. They always have, and always will. Will: "I wasn't sure..." Dustin: "We've gone through hell together, saved each other's lives. Are you kidding?" Lucas holds out his hand for a handshake. Will skips that and just hugs Lucas. The others join in, and the four of them share a long group embrace.

After school, Mike asks his mom if she has a good box for giving a gift, about “yay tall” (demonstrates with his hands). She says sure: “Who is it for?” Mike hesitates... Karen: “Is it for Will?” There’s a look of fear in his eyes. She sees his reaction and doesn’t push it. She finds an old gift box she had saved. While she is looking, she has a tender look on her face. She finds a good box and hands it to him. She puts her hands on his shoulders and looks him in the eyes. “I think Will is a very nice boy.” Mike looks shocked, then relieved. He starts to cry. She hugs him: “I told you, you never have to hide anything from me. I'm your mom, MIke! I love you.” Mike nods through tears. “Does dad know?” “No…” They hold each other. She gives him an encouraging nod, and he takes the box.

Mike presents the gift box to Will, and he expectantly watches him take off the lid. Will recognizes Mike's old teddy bear. “Aww that’s so sweet.” “I know it’s kinda stupid, and I didn’t buy anything, but it seemed right.” “It’s perfect.” He hugs Mike, and they kiss. They go out on their date. They go watch a re-screening of Spaceballs and have a great time. Afterward, Mike takes them to an ice cream shop. Mike takes one of Will’s art markers and starts to draw a heart on Will’s cast. Will: “Mike!” Mike doesn’t care. They get some homophobic stares from adults. Before Mike can finish, Will hides away his arm. Mike sees this and is hurt, but understands.

The next day, Will shyly approaches Mike in the school hall. They give each other boyfriend looks. Mike says they should go out again tonight. “Two nights in a row?” “Sure! Why not?” “You know, you don’t have to take me out all the time. You can't afford it." They laugh. Will "We could just hang out and play games.” Mike wants to kiss Will on the spot. “So it’s a date?” Will giggles and looks shyly to the side: “Yes, it’s a date.” Max walks up to them and says “Hi, lovebirds!” They blush. The bell rings, they turn and head to their class.

… They pass by and notice Bully #1. He looks at them and Max stares daggers back. He immediately lowers his gaze. Will, defiantly looking straight at Bully #1, extends his hand out to Mike. Mike takes it, they look at each other. Mike gives a loving sigh and nods. Students look at them in shock as they walk down the hall in slow motion, David Bowie’s “Heroes” playing (starting here). The last line is sung as we go to credits...

I, I will be king And you, you will be queen Though nothing will drive them away We can be Heroes, just for one day We can be us, just for one day

====================

That's it! I'm not planning anything more on this particular project. I have a couple ideas including Will and Mike getting caught on the Upside Down and Will using a gun lol, but I don't feel like writing it out because from here forward the A plot takes center stage and I have no idea where that will go!

Anyway, that concludes "Byler Endgame - One Episode at a Time." I hope you enjoyed it!

Part 0 (what a Byler endgame needs to address) Previous episode

-teambyler

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

A maladaptive daydreaming endgame would be the most boring, dry, anticlimactic, and nonsensical endgame possible. There’s no arc. There’s no stakes. There’s nothing to look forward to. There’s no pizzaz. There’s no mystery. They have no goals. They aren’t building towards anything. Plus, there’s a giant, unanswered, blue and yellow coded, bowlcut-shaped elephant standing in the middle of their storyline.

Like, push aside the minutiae of the shipping war for a second. Push aside the debate over Mike’s sexuality. Macy's Day Parade staying together and finally being a happy couple in Season 5 is a genuinely absurd concept because they have no momentum. And that in and of itself is so incriminating. Yes, on a surface level (boy protagonist makes grand confession love monologue to girl protagonist, wooo, romance go brr) level, I suppose one could think they do. But they do not. Where are they going, narratively? What do Mike and El like doing together for fun? Brodie made a whole monologue and that answer is still a giant question mark. What are their shared hopes for the future?

They have none. Even without being in the same state, it’s clear why Duzie is into each other. Lumax, Jancy, Jopper, and Rockie all are building towards something. Even a hypothetical STANCY revival has more of a raison d’être. Love them or hate them, they do fall into tropes of rekindling old sparks, and Steve’s pitch was rooted in how much he’s changed and what his hopes are for his future- which he sees Nancy in (even if Nancy’s future goals don’t actually align). And for El, it’s clear that saving Max is her priority. So even Elmax has more momentum than Mlvn.

For Migration Pattern, it’s like Mike finally did the thing, finally said ILY, finally confessed his apparently undying love for his superpowered girlfriend (in the penultimate season, I might add, which is never a good sign), only for there to be crickets. It’s like okay… and now what?

No one knows. It doesn’t feel right. Mike finally did everything El asked of him, finally (allegedly) explained why he couldn’t say it before, and it’s narratively unsatisfying in every possible way. Not only this, but this is not your imagination playing tricks on you. These aren’t Byler shipping goggles. The show goes out of its way to emphasize that Mike and El aren’t on speaking terms, which is an odd choice for a couple entering their endgame era. And everyone has lost. Nothing is in a good place. It’s all a mess. Max is in a coma. It’s a nightmare. Yeah, it’s not looking good for Minotaur Endgame.

“But you don’t get it, Bitcoin! They're saving her response to Mike’s monologue for Season 5. They do have something to look forward to. You just don’t like it.” Okay… and what do they expect her response to be? “Oh Mike, my darling loverboy, I love you so. l'm glad you see me as a superhero. And I’m so glad you fell in love with me in the woods. I love you too. Let’s make out and eat eggo waffles forever.” And then what?

They also expect Mike to just start saying I Love You a lot more often? They expect them to finally be on the same page and have meaningful heart-to-hearts? They expect him to suddenly show interest in what she likes instead of gritting his teeth and acting awkward?

They expect Mlvn to glide off into the sunset as if any of their structural problems have been resolved? Despite the fact that Will’s thinly veiled love confession/ the painting lie was the whole catalyst for the monologue in the first place? That just doesn’t make sense? Like, objectively.

But know who does have momentum? Miwi. Byler arguably has the strongest momentum going into Season 5 of any couple or would-be couple. They have romantic momentum, friendship momentum, individual character arc momentum, and narrative momentum. The cinematography makes that crystal-clear.

[lunabug2004]

You said that according to you there is a way to make Mileven stay together and have all the characters have a good arc at the end of the show. Could you develop that? cause in my opinion if Mike's arc is about falling in love , changing his personality after meeting a girl and at the end being the protective paladin to "fix" his bad behaviour then it's really bad writing (coming from a straight person)

I'm going to be completely honest here, which I hope is what you want lol, I do think I say this (sans the "good arcs" part bc I don't think I've ever said that there's a way to make Mileven happen where all the characters have good arcs) to more-or-less make myself feel better bc I have so much Byler doubt (& Mike love) so yeah, take this as you will, this is just what my brain has come up with as an arc(?) I could mostly cope with. I mean, there's a reason I put "(mostly) happy" but yes, I'll try to expand.

I love Mike and I have a feeling I will continue to love Mike whether Mileven or Byler is endgame. This is purely because I do not believe Mike is a bad person or bad character just bc he's made some bad decisions/said some things he (canonically) regrets. I don't think Mike would be a protective paladin to simply "fix" his "bad behavior". While I do agree that this wouldn't be the best writing choice, I think, in-context, he would be trying his best to keep everyone he loves alive. He is an extremely traumatized teenage boy whose biggest fear is losing those he loves. He has been smack-dab in the middle of the action until s4. Finn Wolfhard himself has said Mike is depressed and pushing everyone away bc of it.

Anyways, all of this to say that I don't think it'd be too farfetched to say all of his "bad behavior" is simply untreated trauma symptoms. And yes, you could say something about other characters being traumatized and them not acting like Mike, but trauma, and this is a fact, effects everyone differently. One person may lean into their life before going through said trauma, like Will in s3, while another may block it out, like it's shown with El in s4, and another may completely change themselves while being stuck in a loop of wanting those he loves close to him but also wanting to keep them at a distance bc he is so terrified of losing them. Dr. Owens even says in s2 that a sign of PTSD is change in personality and lashing out, which we see both in Mike. Plus all the parallels bt him and Max in s4, it's safe to say this boy is struggling mentally.

I do think it would make sense, when we finally get Mike's POV in s5, for a lot of his controversial moments to be fueled by his mental health struggle. Now, do I think this is an excuse? Not necessarily, but it does make sense, and as far as I know, anytime Mike's actively made anyone upset he's apologetic (like I said earlier, lashing out). I believe that if the show solely focuses on Mike's mental health issues, then Mileven wouldn't be out of the question.

I do want to add that this is not how I want the story to go, I would much rather his story go the Byler route, but I've said before that his character is not solely dependent on either Byler or Mileven, and I still stand by that. He should not simply be seen as a 'romantic interest' character bc he is more than that and he has his own problems (that we aren't necessarily shown) that have nothing to do with who he's in a romantic relationship with.

Now, again, this is probably mostly just something I've convinced myself I'd be alright with, but I am aware that this in and of itself would be boring and not very good writing. I also do not know, in this case, what would happen on the Byler side of things, this why I say "(mostly)". I am fully a Byler shipper and would prefer Byler endgame to anything really, but I'm a Mike-stan first and foremost.

Sorry if this wasn't too clear, I feel like I just rambled and repeated myself a lot. Thanks for the ask, though! And pls if you or anyone else has questions about anything I said, pls ask me! Trust me, I know this isn't foolproof and I'm probably just dumb 😂

TLDR: I think it's possible they could go more towards untreated PTSD and trauma/mental health related route for Mike in a way that would make Mileven possible. Doesn't mean I'd think it's necessarily good writing, but I could see it going that way.