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spnwin-reader · 9 months ago

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Prime Dean gives Alt John the tools to unlock the truth and decide for himself if he will hunt

Original run context: John's feelings of betrayal

In the original #SPNprime, John was not allowed to fight for or defend himself until it was already too late. This made the wound of Mary's death much, much deeper than it would have otherwise been.

Unlike with Sam keeping the truth from Jess out of shame, Mary's keeping the truth from John may stem from incredible fear, watching Azazel kill him in The Beginning.

(It's perhaps more akin to Dean symbolically blinding Lisa and Ben to the truth to keep them safe than how Sam was with Jess.)

But the in The Song Remains the Same, John (temporarily) learns the truth, and he is (rightfully) frustrated by having been kept in the dark. He feels intense betrayal. He feels like a child.

JOHN: Monsters. Monsters? MARY: Yes. JOHN: Monsters are real. MARY: I'm sorry, I didn't know how— JOHN: And you fight them? All of you? SAM: Yeah. JOHN: How long? MARY: All my life. John, just try to understand— DEAN: She didn't exactly have a choice— JOHN: Shut up, all of you! Look, not another word, or so help me, I will turn this car around! Silence falls.

/// LATER ///

JOHN: What? Y'all might have treated me like a fool, but I am not useless. I can draw a damn— (JOHN picks up the paper from next to a large knife.)—whatever it is—a sigil.

///

Original run context: Mary continued to hunt near/during the beginning of her marriage?

In Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox, we learn that it could've been Mary who created much of the tension in their marriage by potentially stepping out on John to hunt, calling into question if the fight shown between them in Dark Side of the Moon.

MARY: "No, John. We're not having this conversation again. Time to think? About what? You have two boys at home." DEAN: "I remember this. Mom and dad were fighting, and then he moved out for a couple of days." MARY: "Fine. Then don't. There's nothing more to talk about."

Now we wonder: Was this fight even John's fault to begin with? The stereotype of "angry husband" might lull you into thinking so, but it's equally possible that it was Mary that originated the fight--Mary who had a long, canon-supported history of lying. She's even the one shutting down the conversation here!

Mary would probably rather John think she's unfaithful than risk John being dragged into hunting, and she'd probably pivot to supporting their kids as an excuse to smooth things over. (Just as Cas would rather Dean assume anything so long as he's not dragged into the dangerous world of angelic Civil War).

Alternatively, the fight may have even been part of the normal ebb-and-flow of a marriage. It may have been that the fight looked a LOT bigger through the eyes of a sensitive four-year-old.

(A couple of days ain't even that long, but boy it sure does feel big when you're a kid. But just because their marriage wasn't "perfect" doesn't mean it wasn't good, and the Dean-Sam conversation completely misses on that front.)

One of the things post-season 12 in #SPNprime does so beautifully is calls into question everything we know about Mary, including the cartoonish idea of John as the root of all evil.

Mary's lies are given rich complexity, as is Dean's memory of her.

Everything in Dark Side of the Moon, from the idea of "Heaven" as the "perfect place you grow up" to being simplistically at peace with your siblings/"littermates" in the ideal childhood home forever is given more complexity by the narrative unfridging of Mary.

(It's why the gate to Heaven is always associated with a playground. "There's no place like home," is literal in SPN. Heaven can even be seen as the idealization of childhood, as sharing the same history.)

///

Dean helps John because Dean was also "locked out" during critical periods in his life, prevented from Danger "for his own good"

Dean feels this pain acutely in season 6, when Samuel Campbell, his brother Sam, and Bobby Singer keep him out of the larger hunting plot in order to "keep him at peace."

Despite their good intentions, this denied him the right to choose for himself if he'd meet The Fight head on.

Cas, too, does this with the angelic Civil War, with Kelly Kline, general "angel business," and The Empty deal, and Dean feels that as unintended rejection.

He feels, like John, coddled. Like a child. Not getting the chance to be an equal comrade or partner in the fight.

///

Here, prime Dean is giving John the key to discover the truth about monsters and Henry's Men of Letters heritage.

Certainly John has a lot of emotional baggage and childhood abandonment trauma to work through, but at least this time he'll have more agency ahead of time, and he'll get to choose which path to prepare for rather than having the world of monsters thrust upon him in the midst of a grief-spiral.

Dean has handed that power of Choice back to John.

Perhaps prime Dean too is wounded from being kept in the dark. Perhaps he longs for a world were he's known about Cas's The Empty deal instead of, like John, being blindsided and struck dumb by grief.

#spnwin #john and dean #mary's lies #alt john #og mary #og john #spn 4x03 #spnwin 1x01 #spn 12x06 #spn 6x20 #spn dark side of the moon #spn celebrating the life of asa fox #spn the song remains the same #spnwin pilot #henry winchester #mary campbell #john winchester #the gift of agency and choice

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mlobsters · 1 year ago

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supernatural s12e6 celebrating the life of asa fox (w. steve yockey)

seen gifs from this one recently of sam being cute, so i know at least that's coming. recap reminding me of all the characters i iked that have died, not exactly putting me in a great mindset though

ok so. we're gonna use the same actress, samantha smith - who is 47 at this point, for mary in 1980 (who would be 26). even though in 5x13 it's 1978 with a different actress when dean time traveled. weird choice but ok. sighing that they forced me to figure out the numbers on it :p

decided to just grab the whole scene so i could swim around in the slice of life cozy feelings for a while before it falls apart .2 seconds later

i turned captions off because netflix puts them right over their faces when the title credits are running at the bottom :|

dean's so proud of himself and can't wait to tell jody about hitler, very cute. i do really look forward to episodes with her now. that casual family affection and support sure is nice for them, little hugs and kisses as they barge on in. and her "are you?" to the romcom chick question cracks me up, with how she says it

SAM He’s more of a, uh… animated Japanese erotica chick. JODY Really?

her reaction is great. now generally i'm not about that embarrassing each other life, but that one was cute. and i'm sure dean has done more than his fair share of embarrassing his little brother over the years :p tit for tat, in front of mom/big sister

DEAN Don’t tell her that. SAM Tell her what? DEAN It’s Jody, man. SAM Dude, be proud of your hobbies. It makes you who you are.

his laugh there sounded to me more like a jared laugh than a sam laugh. maybe because we just don't hear sam laugh all that much. which made me inexplicably upset and not want to watch the rest of the episode today.

all right, day 2. i'm exhausted. let's see if i can do this

SAM Yeah, no, Jody. We… we know you’ll be fine, but… you know, we never go to hunter gatherings, outside of bars. Dad always said they were trouble, so…

'course he did

DEAN He died on the job. No better way to go. SAM You really believe that? DEAN Yeah. What, you don’t? I mean, come on, Sam, it's not like we're in the “live till you're 90, die in your sleep” business. This? [Dean points at Asa’s hunting wall] This only ends one way.

i should tally and gather all the times they have this conversation. it always upsets me. sometimes more than others. and the certainty of how it plays out at the end of the series.

4x12 criss angel is a douchebag

DEAN Man...hope I die before I get old. Whole thing seems brutal, don't it? SAM You think we will? DEAN What? SAM Die before we get old. DEAN Haven't we both already? SAM You know what I mean, Dean. I mean, do you think we'll still be chasing demons when we're 60? DEAN No, I think we'll be dead...for good. What? You want to end up like -- Like Travis? Huh? Or Gordon, maybe? SAM There's Bobby. DEAN Oh, yeah, there's a poster child for growing old gracefully. SAM Maybe we'll be different, Dean. DEAN What kind of Kool-Aid you drinking, man? Sammy, it ends bloody or sad. That's just the life.

11x11 into the mystic, at the retirement community

DEAN Maybe we ought to make a reservation. SAM [Chuckles] Yeah, we should be so lucky to live long enough.

... DEAN So no retirement, huh? SAM Hey, you’re the one who’s always wanted to go out blaze of glory style preferably while the Bon Jovi song is playing. DEAN I’m a candle in the wind. Yeah, but the way you said it, it was like that blaze of glory was gonna happen sooner rather than later.

can't find anything else, really thought it's come up more but also searching when not sure of the wording is a challenge

i don't have it in me to finish this today either.

attempt #3.

BUCKY And Asa made us go roller skating. And right after these ghouls almost got us. So there’s the three of us, all banged up, with a ton of ironic teenagers skating under these neon lights. You remember this, Jody? JODY Mm hmm. BUCKY Oh, it was classic. I mean, you know, until the two of you snuck off for some sweet, sweet time alone.

so jody said she met asa "a few months back" but now she's chummy with these hunters (presumably she met them through asa?) and bucky here telling this story like we're recalling days more than a few months gone by. pulls me out of the story when i need to stop to try to figure out how this makes sense and come to the conclusion that it doesn't

DEAN Hey, you clearly deserve your sweet, sweet time alone. JODY Well, I mean, it wasn’t always sweet. DEAN Uh… yeah, it’s just not how we think of you. You know, I… JODY Good, 'cause that would honestly be weird. DEAN Nobody… nobody said you can’t date, right?

little banter bicker earlier, very natural and cute. this... awkward and forced feeling to me. weird. like we gotta fill the time here during the stealth throat slash and mary slowly creeping in

new mom meet the old mom. so like, i can see how they (the show) wanted this to be a surprise for this scene but little old me is thinking you know dean was tripping over himself to tell jody about killing hitler, but the fact that their long dead mother was resurrected didn't come up.

MARY All over. I went back to Lawrence for a few days. And then, um, I’ve been using John’s journal to retrace a few things. Try to catch up on what I’ve missed. DEAN You could’ve just asked us, you know. SAM Dean, come on. DEAN She could’ve. MARY It’s okay. He’s right. But… This is something I needed to do alone. I… Listen, most of the people I knew are dead. And then I remembered Asa. He was so young when I met him, I thought he must still be around. And then… I saw an article about his death, and, uh… DEAN So you’ll text us once a week, maybe, but you’ll drive all the way to Canada to see some dead guy? Well, that’s awesome. I’m gonna get some air.

well that wasn't fair, dean.

JODY You okay? DEAN Swell. JODY Huh. Is that why you spent the entire ride up here telling me in extreme, excruciating detail how you killed Hitler, but, uh, you neglected to mention the fact that your mom is back from the dead?

all right, then. (i kinda forgot he was mad but [trying to deal] about it honestly)

DEAN Yeah, no big deal. JODY That’s a lie. DEAN Jody… JODY Look, maybe this isn't my place, and this is epic stuff, but, you know, if I could have my son and my husband back? I mean really back? I would give anything, absolutely anything to have that. And it would scare the hell out of me. DEAN Yeah? JODY Yeah. Because what if I’ve changed. What if they changed? What if it just didn’t work out the way I wanted? If you wanna talk about anything, absolutely anything, I’m here. DEAN Thanks, Jody.

when she started that, i was thinking more along the lines of scared to get close and lose them again. i think in this hypothetical, they wouldn't change much but i can definitely get the, what if i changed, of it all. being the person myself that usually has changed within a relationship and it gets kinda fucked up. anyway, i'm glad she made him talk about it. needs someone other than sam to push him sometimes and that he can lean on. i don't care if she's our manic pixie dream mom, we (myself included) need it

MARY Yeah, I just don’t know anymore. Everywhere I go, and everything I do just… feels wrong. But I’ll get used to it. Being back here. I will. I just… SAM Yeah, Mom. You don’t have to explain anything. I get it. You need space. And– and so does Dean, you know? I-I mean, he – he's just… We just got you back and he's just scared we're gonna lose you again, that – that because we're hunters, you're gonna walk away. But I know that’s not true. Even looking at these… I mean, you saved Asa in 1980, um, after Dean was born. After everyone thought you quit hunting. Seems like you couldn’t stop then, and… I’m guessing you can’t stop now, either. This job, this life, is crazy and insane. But it’s in our blood.

don't really follow the logic of - scared she's gonna walk away because they're hunters? scared she's gonna leave period, scared she's gonna die, etc. that i get.

BILLIE It wasn’t me. I don’t get my hands dirty. Rules. I just clean up the mess. Still, between us, it’s always nice to see a Winchester who can’t get what he wants.

i can barely even remember why she hates them so much. they break the rules or whatever with all the dying and coming back? okay and now billie's gonna help and he's indebted to her. sure

never gets old the top priority is where's sammy. literally yeeted through a door,

this crossroads demon apparently is just way tricksier than all your other bog standard demons. and i thought crossroads demons weren't supposed to be slaughtering people left and right. they're in sales not wetwork

no devil's traps in this here hunter's house???? the cg on the dude breaking his own neck was.... not good. also hey the whole christo thing sure would be useful :P or bust out the phone recording of an exorcism (which they did do once iirc??) too many cheat codes

sam gotta save new mom from old mom

this whole twist with the accidentally killing asa and covering it up thing has me ??? what is the point. and i felt slightly bad but the 3 person pyre made me laugh. gotta go take out another chunk of forest to expand it

awkward

JODY I don’t know what’s going on between you and your boys, but I gotta tell you, mom to mom, they are good men. Best I’ve ever met. MARY I know. They’re not the problem.

BILLIE See, I’m a big believer in what dies, stays dead. Laws of the universe and all that, so… MARY I didn’t ask to come back here. BILLIE No, you didn’t. And you hate it. The look in your eyes, I’ve seen it before. It’s a dead man’s look– eyes that say no matter where you go or what you do, it feels like this world doesn’t fit anymore. Like you’re all alone. DEAN Well, she’s not alone. BILLIE Tell me I’m wrong. I’m not here to hurt you. I’m here to offer you mercy. A one-way ticket upstairs, away from all of this.

so i sort of remember her talking about reaping god and being above everything basically, but i mean, magical god creation also is part of this universe so... ? and also, if i didn't know how many episodes mary was in, i would have believed she might actually take up billie's offer.

SAM Does this mean you’re coming home? MARY Yeah. Not quite yet. I just need a little more time.

got the production/behind the scenes-reasons vibes starting to happen for me, little too contrived but okay.

what a strange mix in this episode. so many Family Moments and Feelings mixed into a rando case/rando mix of people. case setup reminded me of the episode that was one big advertisement for Clue :p

#supernatural #spnwatch #spn 12x06 #spn bloody or sad #spn clip #jody mills #steve yockey

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