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whateverthedragonswant · 3 years ago

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I'll try to address your points. It's gonna be long and might sound confrontational but I'm just sharing my thoughts, which are evidently very different than yours.

Ideas are not crimes. I'm not American but afaik, USA doesn't jail you for thought crimes. Nevermind for the "crime" of shipping a relationship between fictional characters. So while incest is illegal in states, shipping wincest is not. Even wanting to see wincest onscreen is not a crime.

You will be jailed in my country for having same sex relationships. The society will shun you. And while new gen is changing, majority are still against lgbt. But even in my country, people will not prosecute you for shipping gay ships. By that posts logic, they should start doing it, coz being gay is illegal and anyone who ships gay ships are committing a crime. That's what the post you re-blogged implied. Just with fictional incest(which you think is morally wrong) but not with fictional lgbt(which many in my country think is morally wrong).

1) Shipping is a fanon activity. Shipping is not activism, it's not about forcing the creators to make your ship canon. Its about personal interpretations, about creative expression. So your point about rules of spn universe is moot. Wincest shippers aren't out there harassing creators and actors to make their ship canon, they aren't using fake activism to make incest mainstream, they are just shipping a "scandalous" ship. Even then, I'd like to point that rules of spn universe allowed a possessed father to kiss a daughter so if Sam or Dean were female? They might have put a kiss between them to show some horror.

2) Supernatural started as horror with gothic elements. Incest is a horror trope. Spn consists of unhealthy dynamics, codependent bonds and obsession that blurs lines. It's also got a lot of covert/emotional incest going on, and there were deliberate choices made both by actors and creators.(remember Kripke had Mary kiss her Father) I'm not invested in wincest. But if you say the writers wanted to make them healthy then I have got to disagree.

You can't apply real life situations to Sam and Dean's unique case. None of us have sold our souls for siblings, none of us have our siblings as our soulmates, none of us have gone through hell trauma. Because it's a made up story which has no counterpart in reality. It's something a lot of ppl miss.

I'll also have to disagree with you about Dean. Dean's obsessed with his brother. He crosses all kind of boundaries and violates Sam's consent, even his body autonomy. His Siren is literally a submissive, agreeable little brother. You can avoid the implications or falsely claim it validates bi dean(it doesn't, or conversely if it does then it also validates wincest, perhaps one sided) but doesn't mean that rest of us will do the same. Heck, for all the "growth" he's gone through, Dean literally waits in heaven for Sam. Doing nothing until he's reunited with his soulmate. So pls don't give any credit to writers because they didn't dismantle the codependency.

3) Destiel doesn't have moral high ground if we're talking about power imbalance. Cas is billions of years older to Dean. He's also so much more powerful to Dean. He's been abusive to Dean, he's beaten Dean bloody, he's manipulated Dean, he's encroached on Dean's personal space. I can write a 10000 word essay on why destiel is also problematic(or send you links from Destiel shippers who write excellent meta about the same). Sure, it's not incest so it doesn't have the "yikes" factor but when you want to enforce your ship on others (which is what destiel shippers essentially do when they argue it is canon), you'll have to acknowledge it's flaws. If wincest glorifies abuse then so does destiel. If there are wincest shippers who get off on abuse then there are destiel shippers who get off on Cas beating Dean. There are posts with thousands of notes if you wanna check.

I acknowledge the unhealthy relationship dynamics between Sam and Dean(I hope you do for Dean and Cas). But unlike you, I blame the show for glorifying abuse and not the shippers. The show literally put Sam and Dean together for eternity, had Dean wait for Sam like he had no other purpose even after his death. But that's what the show chose to do so there's nothing I can do. What I won't do is to police other ppl for shipping things that make me uncomfortable. As long as they don't force me to believe their version (you know like hellers do) I don't care.

4) I'm a woc. I'm from a poor, ultra conservative country. I don't get or understand or agree with all of western ideas. Not to shade anyone, but a lot of ideas and identity's west pushes are ridiculed by our society and will only set lgbt community back. When you are dirt poor, when you have bigger, more life threatening problems you don't care about a myriad of identities. Things like QPR or n number of genders are essentially first world problems. Its one of the reasons why I don't interact with spn fandom much, it's like walking on egg shells when you aren't coming from a westernzied perspective. Which is hilarious coz it shows that for all the talk of inclusiveness, diversity of thought is shunned the moment you say things that go against the narrative. I hope I don't get cancelled for saying this but I won't be surprised if I do.

5)I don't ship J2. I find RPF a slippery slope. It can be ok if ppl keep boundaries but they don't. Fans today are very entitled and have no shame about blasting their personal jerk off fantasies in actors face and I find that culture distasteful. Hence you won't see me defending J2 shippers.

Initially Jensen wasn't comfortable with wincest or J2 or destiel or cockles. He's learnt to tolerate them. He had to. He wasn't comfortable with the poses destiel shippers asked in photo ops. He said no plenty of times and eventually he stopped saying no. He admitted that in last panel, you can check the video. The fans called him homophobic when he said his character was straight, when he said he didn't play Dean as bi, when he said destiel doesn't exist. I find it really sad how he's been treated and how his boundaries have been disrespected and eroded over the years. But it's what it is.

What you need to understand is this. J2 aren't anti wincest or destiel. As in, they don't care if you ship either. J2 joke about wincest. Send wincest fanfiction/art to each other. Prank Alex. They don't even care if you ship J2 or cockles. They might have in early years, but like I said, they had to get used to it. But they care when you blast your ship in their face and ask them to validate it. They didn't play wincest or destiel. Jensen didn't play a bi character. Didn't play Dean as in love with Cas or Sam. It's exactly why Jared talked about platonic love in Denver con. They are graciously allowing you your interpretation but asking you to not impose your views on them. Think about that.

Personally I'd be much less gracious in their shoes. If people disregarded my words about a character I played for 15 years and said I'm homophobic/in-closet if i dare to say my character is straight? I'd loss my cool. Like imagine the disrespect. And yes, it's disrespectful coz it invalidates an actor's portrayal of his character. It's one thing if bi dean or destiel was explicitly planned or written, which it wasn't. Bi dean was never written or acted, and destiel wasn't written or planned for 14 seasons. There was one ambiguous confession in last season which means J2 (or anyone else) have all the right to see it as platonic.

These shippers have sent Jared death threats. Creation found these threats credible and has recently increased his security because of them. They have tried to cancel Walker. They have spread baseless rumours about Jared(like he's a sexual harasser) and these posts have hundreds of thousands of notes. Jared, who has mhi, who wanted to quit in S10 but only stayed coz he didn't want the crew to loss jobs, who literally cried himself to sleep everyday coz he couldn't handle the pressure. This man who donates millions to LGBT charities and who suffered so much during supernatural, they bully and harass him because of a rpf ship. They send him death threats. When shipping has real life impacts like this, it needs to be called out. You talked about a fictional ship(wincest) hurting real life people and here I have given you the real hurt caused by cockles shippers/hellers.

I don't have the energy to respond to your last paragraphs but I just wanna say that Jensen has repeatedly enforced boundaries, has expressed discomfort about aggressive RPF shipping, about being asked to make poses with Misha. But cockles shippers have never respected his boundaries. They have asked him to sign sexual pictures etc. Just this con a Jared hater got a J2M op and asked Jensen to dip Misha, which Jensen refused. They might as well ask him to kiss Misha for photo ops in next con. Sadly it seems like his boundaries have been worn down. In his own words, he's given up. And I get him, it's exhausting. You eventually learn to do shocking, uncomfortable things coz saying no becomes exhausting after a 100 requests. That too when you are a man and women are asking you. Or perhaps he doesn't want to be called homophobic. God knows cockles (or destiel) shippers have done that multiple times, even had articles published on news sites.

I feel like you're low key victim blaming Jensen for not being firm with his boundaries even if that's not your intention. I do have counter arguments to those points and about Misha's baiting but I don't have time now. I might send a separate ask later if i find the energy but for now I'll leave you with this one.

Have a nice day.

Alright. Anon, I am going to respond to this but under the cut so it doesn’t clog up any dashes. Like you stated in your ask, my reply may come across/sound confrontational, or at the very least like I’m kicking off a debate, but I assure you, it’s neither. I will make one point here, though, that I do feel I need to address first and foremost:

I'm just going to get this one out of the way quickly before the cut. I must admit I am rather exhausted by the topic of Jensen these days and my supposed intentions regarding him as an individual. (which is a shame because it's not the man himself, just his stanbase/”fans” aka AA’s that are the ones to blame for my current feelings on the topic) It’s to the point where I don’t even want to see any content come across my dash that has anything to do with him. (I’m not talking about Dean, the character obviously is different) Whether that be him, Danneel, Jared, Misha, Rob, Radio Company, etc that has anything to do with Jensen. And I cannot tell you how much that irritates me because I am a fan of his and want to continue to be but I can’t help how I currently feel. I am tired of my words about this man being taken out of context, misconstrued, distorted, and then thrown back at me as if it’s damning evidence that I am victim blaming the man in a situation or rooting for him to be treated badly by past co-stars. For someone who has experienced similar things in their lives to what I have and to be told these things as if they are facts and that I should be ashamed of being such a “horrible person”, I cannot even begin to tell you how demoralizing this is and just how wrong and toxic these types of responses/statements are. I know you are just stating your perspective on my statements, but man am I tired. I am NOT victim blaming Jensen at all when it comes to the Cockles topic and his interactions with his fans. I believe I even said that specifically in my response to your previous ask if you go back and read through that section again. And I also mentioned Misha as well. I wasn't victim blaming him or Danneel or Jared or Gen or anyone. I said that specifically so I have to say that I am rather surprised at that being your takeaway from my statements. All I said is that they should assert stronger boundaries if they truly feel uncomfortable with any fan interactions they are having (in this case, you mentioned Cockles as a specific example). That’s just common sense. Jensen is a grown man and his own person; he can make these decisions for himself. Same goes for JP, MC, DA, GP, the SPN cast, and any other individual walking the planet.

Now, that being said, onto below the cut:

TLDR; wincest is still harmful when it glorifies abuse, I don’t care about J2 or Cockles, destiel is a lot healthier than wincest for many reasons, Jensen can handle himself as can Jared and Misha (the latter two who I am rather indifferent towards, the name of the blog is jackles-coded after all), destiel is indeed canon, the show did not canonize wincest and they were never going to — I think that about covers it all

Now, anon, I am going to respond to each point you made in the following breakdown (and it's going to get long which is why I put the TLDR section above) but let me start out with two very important points:

1) I appreciate you stating that you are just posting your thoughts. That helps set the tone and I am grateful you did that. I think that is super important when having civil discourse where there may be different parties disagreeing.

2) I have been in the SPN fandom close to 2 years now but that's it. I have not been in the fandom before then. I watched the show, sure, and I knew who J2M were but I had no idea of anything fandom-related. I have absolutely no idea as to the history of what Jensen has dealt with previously (except infamous examples that are either still being talked about on this site by fans, i.e. topics like Kelios, or that people have posted about specifically), nor do I know what Jared or Misha has dealt with previously, separately and together. I am a Jensen fan but that does not mean I know every single detail or facet of every encounter that he has ever had. Only he does, as well as maybe Danneel, his representation, and his possible security team. If he has stated his discomfort with the materials he has been presented with before by fans at photo ops and they still don't respect it, then they're obviously not real fans of his. And you can think I am victim blaming him again should you desire to do so, but I will say this point again because this is absolute truth: if they continue to make him uncomfortable, then he has the right to assert stronger boundaries. He is in a position that he can do that, Anon. If he wants to say no to a photo op, he can do that. If he doesn't want to answer a question, he can do that, too. It's all within HIS power, Anon. Just like any individual, but even more so because it's related to his actual safety and comfort levels. Any trained mental health professional, any communication and/or social interaction/relationship expert, anyone walking around with common sense, will say the same. Because that’s just a basic fact. If you don’t like something, say no. That’s not sitting there in judgment about it or saying this individual is bad if they don’t; it’s telling someone that if they don’t like something or how they’re being treated to stand up for themselves, to lay down boundaries and to be assertive when doing so. That’s not victim blaming; that’s good and important advice. And it’s advice that is given throughout the world to all different people in all different situations/industries. Advice that trained professionals give repeatedly whether that be a business coach to a CEO or a counselor to a patient or a parent to a school age child or a relationship expert to someone who is dating/in a serious relationship. It applies in various ways. So to look at this common knowledge as victim blaming is just beyond the scope of rationality in my opinion. It’s communication 101 in various types of interactions and relationships worldwide. If you do not know what I am referring to, then please research it and you will see what I’m speaking of.

Now, onto your ask:

I’m going to state this up front: I appreciate your perspective and I appreciate even more that you are sharing information about your country with me and the perspective there. As you probably surmised from our exchanges, I do live in the US so I don’t want to assume anything about your country or the laws there or respond to any part of that because I don’t feel that I am educated enough on that topic or I don't want to make any assumptions of knowing how things are like there from your perspective and your experience. I only know what you tell me. So please don’t take offense but I’m not going to respond to the US vs your country on the LGBTQIA matters or any differences between the two.

Having said that, I am going to respond to your other points that involve the fandom, the ships, and the actors, though: I never said shipping wincest or any other incestuous ship is a crime. I stated that incest itself is a crime in the US. Between real people. As a reader (and reblogger) of that post, I did not see the op stating that all wincest shippers should be put in jail for the crime of shipping a fictional incestuous pairing. I saw them referring to incest being a crime as a general point because not only is it illegal here, it’s also taboo. To be honest, I think you are taking what they said too literally. But that’s your perspective. So at this point, like you said, we have very different thoughts on this, and I think if you have anything further you’d like to discuss about that particular post, you should take it up with the op. I cannot speak to their intention or implications when they stated their opinion, and it’s not right for anyone to hold me accountable for that one part of their statement because I'm not them and I didn't type it and that also wasn’t the reason I reblogged it (which I elaborated on in your previous ask’s response). I have never posted here that I feel anyone shipping wincest (or any other fictional incestuous pairing) should be put in prison for shipping that ship and I honestly think you are taking what that op said way too literally, as I stated before. Perhaps it’s time for you to share your thoughts with that op in the comments section of said post. I myself will no longer be responding to any discourse/asks/replies/messages about this particular reblogged post.

I am genuinely confused by this part. How did we get onto the topic of activism? Who said that anyone, destiel or wincest or any other pairing, attempted to force the show to make their ship canon? And whoever said that shipping wasn’t a fandom activity? It always has been? It’s the very core of shipping and all that activity entails.

Allow me to remind you, Anon: I have only been in the SPN fandom for close to 2 years now (I want to say it was Summer 2020 when I took a dive into the fandom?) so if you’re referring to things in the past for either ship (or any other SPN ship), I have no clue what you’re talking about.

Wait a minute, you just said: “Shipping is a fanon activity. Shipping is not activism, it's not about forcing the creators to make your ship canon. Its about personal interpretations, about creative expression. So your point about rules of spn universe is moot.” So how are universe rules a moot point then? There have to be rules when creating a universe because it all goes into the structure of the story telling. For example, the White Walkers in GoT wouldn’t be a threat to Westeros if Westerosi people could just look at them and melt them with their minds without breaking a sweat. It’s a rule that White Walkers can only be destroyed by fire. Thus, comes the conflict/issue of how dangerous the White Walkers really are en masse and what a threat they are to the world if they overrun it. And Jon Snow and Co have to figure out a way to stop them. Rules are very much an essential aspect of world building. If you are a writer who creates worlds for stories you want to tell, then you know this to be a very important factor in the creative process.

Okay, I’m sorry, but I am going to say that you are incorrect, or more appropriately, maybe you misunderstood what I said. Trust me when I tell you that I know what I am talking about on this topic. It’s all about narrative sense. For example, as GRRM said, if spaceships landed in Westeros and aliens popped out to say hello to Daenerys or the Starks, it wouldn't make any sense because aliens are not a part of the universe. Because that rule was not applied when the universe was created. Rules are a tool that writers utilize when creating a universe to tell a story within that universe, regardless of whatever medium they are writing the story for.

Some examples of the SPN universe rules:

if someone is cursed by a witch due to a hex bag, the hex bag needs to be found and destroyed in order to lift the curse.

Salt is a protective material that assists in ghost hunting, as does iron.

Chuck and Amara do not have power over The Empty because that entity is older than they are.

When angels and demons die, they go to The Empty.

When monsters die, they go to Purgatory.

Heaven was a collection of a person’s memories until Jack and Cas change it before Dean gets there so everyone can be together.

Dean and Sam cannot be possessed by demons due to their anti-possession tattoos. Angels cannot track them after Cas marks them with specific sigils on their bones. As long as the guys continue to have both, they cannot be possessed and/or tracked by the common angel.

These are all examples of universe rules. Dean dating, sleeping with, and/or marrying Sam would not make sense within these rules because the incest-is-acceptable rule was never applied. And the incest-happens-anyway-even-if-it's-taboo rule has also not been applied. (look to stories like Flowers In the Attic for example) And the writers also did not introduce this at any point in the story. There has never been any romantic or sexual tension between Sam and Dean. The two have never been romantically interested or sexually attracted to one another. There has never been anything remotely suggesting that the brothers are more than brothers, at any point, in their history or their story throughout the show.

Here’s what I mean about the incest-is-acceptable rule that I mentioned: Going back to Game of Thrones (I’m going to keep using it as an example since that book series also has its own show, you can see what was adapted rules wise into it from the books), for example, the rules have been set up for acceptable incest, hence the romantic pairing of Jon and Daenerys (in the show), and Jaime/Cersei. Hence the ships for Jonerys, Jonsa, Jonrya, Jaime/Cersei, etc. Because GRRM had put that rule in place when creating that universe. The Targaryens married brother and sister for centuries. So even though the Targaryens’ way of life was acceptable in Westeros while they were in power up until Robert’s Rebellion, once they were no longer in power, sibling incest was no longer acceptable, because that had been exclusive to them. Cousin incest (or other kinds of incest like uncle/niece), however, was acceptable in that world, though it was becoming less and less because marriages were used as transactions if you will, in order to secure powerful alliances, wealth, and to gain power. Just like in history, which GRRM has said he modeled some of that universe after. The rules were set for that universe so when people ship Jonerys or Jonsa or Jonrya, it’s within that framework. Jonyra is a showverse fanon ship, but the fans know that, and from my limited perspective, I do not see them insisting that by Jon hugging Arya at the end, inviting her to The Wall to visit, that that moment was confirmation of their ship going canon or that they were soulmates. Obviously, things remain to be seen in the books for all of the Jon-involved ships and what becomes canon vs what remains fanon in the end. But back to the incest-is-acceptable rule: even when people ship Jaime/Cersei, it’s still within that framework because it’s a part of the story within that universe. While that relationship was framed as immoral, unhealthy, and to be the antithesis of other “sibling” relationships and in comparison/contrast to the Targaryens, it’s still within the rules of the universe because GRRM wove it into the fabric so to speak.

In SPN, Kripke and the writers never did that. So, yes, while wincest might be a fanon ship that people can choose to ship, acceptable incest (or unacceptable incest) is not an actual rule that was set up/applied in the SPN universe. I understand what you’re saying about the elements of horror but again, they never chose to go with that particular element (the incest) that I can remember in Dean and Sam’s story or any other story in the show for that matter. And that example you gave of Samuel Campbell kissing Mary, that actually is not incest for two reasons: 1) Samuel was dead, and was possessed by the YED & 2) that is how demon deals (up to that point in the show anyway) were sealed in the universe (another rule) - remember Dean and the crossroads demon sealing their deal with a kiss in order to bring Sam back in the end of season 2? Or Crowley kissing Bobby and taking a picture which he gleefully shows the boys? Those are events that are playing within the rules of the SPN universe that Kripke and the writers set up. Sam and Dean as a romantic pairing or having sexual contact in any way for whatever reason is not within those rules.

Um, yes, I can? Because Dean and Sam’s story stays mostly within the US, that means US laws apply to them. Because they are in a modern society, that means rules and norms of that very same modern society apply to them (which means incest is taboo). Which is why we see the guys needing to dodge the police, being sought by the FBI, and committing all kinds of credit card fraud in order to keep themselves afloat as they hunt.

Actually, yes, I can. You can apply real life morals and ideals/belief to Sam and Dean’s story, absolutely. Regardless of the fantastical elements you listed as events people on this planet will never go through, reality still applies. For example, I’ve never fought a huge drooling alien on a spaceship but that doesn’t mean I can’t sympathize with Ellen Ripley in the movie Aliens and identify with the feeling of doing whatever I need to do to keep my child safe and putting my fears aside in order to protect them. It also doesn’t mean that we all cannot identify with the feeling of wanting to do whatever it takes to keep your loved ones safe or doing whatever you can to keep them that way or in much more tragic cases, bring them back.

Don’t forget, there is some reality grounded within fantasy. Lord of the Rings may have elves and orcs and hobbits, but that doesn’t make the realistic elements within that fantasy story any less real. Same for Game of Thrones, or more appropriately, A Song Of Ice and Fire. Same for The Chronicles Of Narnia series and the His Dark Materials Trilogy. Even stories like the King Arthur legend and even Greek mythology. Fables even. There are lessons/morals for the readers as well as some elements of reality within the grand framework of fantasy such as emotions, situations, relationships. An even better example is the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer where the vampires were meant to represent all of the hardships adolescents go through in their journey through high school and on their way towards adulthood. Obviously, we will never know what it feels like to be the Slayer and to be patrolling cemeteries every night in order to engage vampires in battle to keep Sunnydale (or our hometowns) safe, but that doesn’t mean her emotions, the relationships she went through, her growth, and even what she experienced when her mother’s death occurred and her grief any less real. Realistic elements within a fantasy universe. Otherwise, how would we, the viewers (or readers) ever possibly relate to the heroes? The antiheroes? Have sympathy for a villain in a certain moment? Etc.? How would we be able to connect to the characters? To the story being told?

As for Sam and Dean being sibling soulmates, that is purely an interpretive statement, not an official part of the story or an SPN universe rule. While the idea of soulmates (platonic or not) is a fantastical element within a story, it does not belong within the group of examples you gave because, once again, the other events happened within the universe; they are official parts of the story. And the concept of soulmates is not reality-based, not in the way a mother will sacrifice herself to protect her son (like Lily did with Harry in the Harry Potter series) because of how much she loves him and wants him to live.

You are certainly free to disagree with me on this and I appreciate you explaining that point, but I must also respectfully disagree with you here. Dean was not obsessed with Sam as you claim. If you read up on parentification and trauma (i.e. abuse, abandonment, neglect) or speak to someone who is proficient in these types of matters or even has experienced it themselves, his relationship with Sam is very on brand for Dean and his characterization/story line. Sam even utilizes this realization he has in season 9 (I think it’s 9, if not it’s 10) when Sam tells Dean that Dean is afraid to be alone and uses that fact against him. We see this play out time and time again: Dean making the demon deal in season 2 to bring Sam back, Dean taking the overdose of pills so he can speak to Billie when Sam is killed by that werewolf, and yes, the one you mentioned, Dean tricking Sam when it came to the Gadreel issue in season 9. That’s not him being obsessed with Sam; that’s him being afraid to be left alone as well as what I mentioned in your previous ask: Sam is his responsibility, he will always overcompensate to save him and protect him. That’s what he has been programmed to do and he and Sam have a toxic codependency. (something the show kept trying to get both brothers to realize when they had other characters throw the fact of how both brothers would unhealthily sacrifice themselves in order to save the other brother in their faces) And of course boundaries between them get violated and often; proper boundaries were never set up between them in the first place. They had to learn and work towards that. Again, another consequence of the abuse (more specifically, the parentification and codependency). Not only did John do his work well with the parentification (and spousification) that he forced onto Dean but also through the abuse (which again, is confirmed in 15x17 by Sam’s own words) which fostered that toxic codependency.

And yes, they did break the codependency. 15x19 was the found family finale, the finale that Dabb and Co. was leading towards with the mythology and characters and later season fans. 15x20 was meant to satisfy the GA and the fans from the first few seasons (while also pushing that core audience towards Walker). This is why Dabb said there were two different finales. 15x20 is literally an alternative episode to 15x19 (should fans continue to watch past 15x19). Dean and Sam have two different endings. While Jensen and Jared may not acknowledge that publicly (I doubt they’re allowed to, tbh), that is the case. I believe that is why they and the show still continue to straddle that fence to this day. “I was in both camps” - that’s literally from Jensen himself in the podcast interview when saying both groups of people who liked the finale and those who didn’t like it, that all of their feelings were valid. If you take what Dabb and Jensen have both said about the finales, and about Dean’s death, it’s all right there. It’s the reason the found family montage was done in 15x19, why the initials were carved into the table in the bunker, why Sam and Dean drink to those they’ve lost, and then drive off together in Baby, on the open road. Conversely, it’s the reason why in 15x20 it’s brothers only, it’s a milk run hunt or a meats and potatoes case (pick whichever analogy you prefer), the OG-Winchester only mantle in Sam’s house, why Sam’s son is named Dean, Blurry Wife, and Dean and Sam end up in Heaven together. Two. Separate. Finales.

And I would just like to make this point: if I lost someone that I loved, no matter who they are to me or what our relationship might be, if they were able, I would hope that they would wait for me in Heaven, too, while being happy and at peace, doing something they loved. That doesn’t characterize or equate to obsession or the concept of soulmates. How many people have near death experiences where they claim to have seen and/or spoken to their loved ones in the forms of friends who have passed or family members or children or even siblings? How many people talk about wanting to see their loved ones again in Heaven? People who they normally would not characterize as soulmates. Again, the concept of soulmates may be a fantastical element (it is) but reality applies here as well (once again, there is always reality mixed in with fantasy). You can interpret Sam and Dean as being soulmates but it’s not something the show confirmed or spoke officially on. By having Dean meeting Sam in Heaven, that’s not a confirmation. It’s simply a brother waiting for the last person in his family to join him where he is, since Cas and Jack are somewhere there already, and so are John and Mary.

About Dean driving, listen, Dean chose to go do something he loved while he waited for Sam (again, the last part of his family that was living) and that was to drive in Baby. Had he enjoyed golf or watching horror movies or fishing (which let’s face it of course he loves those last two but not more than driving in Baby) or to go hang out with his parents, he would have done those things, too. Had the actors been available, I’m sure we would have gotten that Roadhouse scene they talked about with everyone in it. He would have spent time with his loved ones in the Roadhouse while Kansas performed and he drank beer and that’s how he would have waited for the last person in his family to join him. Had Sam already been there and let’s say Jack was human and not God!Jack, you can bet he would have waited for him, too, and it was never confirmed either that he and Jack are soulmates.

This is the problem (well, one of them anyway) with the 15x20 finale. While there were some beautiful brother moments for Sam and Dean, and it was a celebration of the brothers and the ending to their long journey (again, 1st season fans were meant to enjoy it more than any other group), that was not the appropriate ending narratively, not based on the story they told for those two characters the last two seasons. It completely undid all of their character development and regressed them back to their season 1 characters, while also regressing the story back to season 1 (and undoing all of the story development). And even more troublesome, some (such as yourself based on your ask) see it as confirmation of a somehow soulmate connection/relationship between the two brothers. While some might believe in the possible phenomenon of platonic soulmates or kindred spirits even (which siblings could be, for sure), that still is not what happened here. Dean loves Sam and Sam loves Dean, as brothers. They were each other’s family (outside of the found family they created over the years). Their bond is purely familial with an underlying friendship between the two that formed over 15 years. (in 1x01, they were brothers, not friends; by season 15, they were both)

Of course I’m not going to claim that this somehow validates bi!Dean, falsely as you claim or otherwise. Dean and Sam’s relationship has absolutely zero bearing on Dean’s sexual orientation and romantic orientation because it affects neither of these things. (same goes for Sam) Dean and Sam’s relationship was never romantic or sexual in nature.

The siren was a man. Was that whole dynamic Dean shared with the siren meant to illustrate the growing chasm between Sam and Dean in their relationship as brothers at that point in the story? Sure. But that was it. There was nothing romantic or sexual about it for either brother. The Siren even makes them fight at the end of the episode, after using Dean’s issues with Sam to be able to get close to Dean and entrap him. As a matter of fact, if you even look at the details Dean and the Siren discuss when “bonding”, the Siren actually sounds like more of a best friend that Dean is looking for (that is similar to himself) rather than Sam himself. The Siren appears to their victims in the form of what they desire. When the show began, the only outside connections that Dean looked to make were casual (except for Cassie) and to keep to the Winchester only group. Sam was the one who had expanded outside of this frame of mind, not only by going to school and making friends and dating Jessica, but also we see him continuing to attempt to make those connections like with Sarah, etc. How many times did someone pop up from Sam's school days/past? With Brady being that last link? As Bobby and the Harvelles came into the story, Dean’s sticking to the Winchester club (very) slowly started to change. Not only do we see Bobby’s relationship with the boys that slowly starts to be revealed as him being more of a father figure to them as well as a guide and they have history, but it’s slowly expanded outside of the Winchesters only club, but still kept within the hunters only group parameters. With each new season, the boys continue to do what they have to do but they also expand slowly outwards (again, all part of that breaking the toxic codependency while also making narrative sense for their journey together). And thus you get the found family as well as all of the fan favorite characters that came and went in the SPN universe over the years. Dean was always looking to connect to someone that this Siren exemplified. He may have had Lee when he was younger but they obviously had lost touch with one another for a long time before 15x07. Cas, Benny, and Charlie were the only friends he had (outside of Sam) that connected to him on a level that he had been looking for. My whole long point being that the Siren was not meant to represent anything about Sam except for how alone Dean was feeling, and I’m not even talking romantically or sexually, I mean just in general. He had just been to Hell, an experience that he couldn’t even talk about for a while to Sam. He was resurrected (which waking up in his coffin and digging out of his own grave is another traumatizing experience in itself), he has no idea what the real reason is why he was brought back other than what Cas and Co have told him, they just got angels and all that entails dropped into their laps and angels are not the self-proclaimed good guys everyone has been made to believe over time, and now Sam is keeping things from him and working with a demon (one that he specifically doesn’t care for). Sam, the one person he always expected to have his back no matter what because they’re family. But that is all the Siren was meant to represent. If it was meant to be indicative of what you’re suggesting, the Siren would have been Sam himself or more like Sam in personality or using details about Sam to entrap Dean if Dean really desired Sam romantically and/or sexually. Which as we know did not happen.

Oh boy. Now we are onto the alleged imbalanced/abuse of power dynamics between Dean and Cas. How did we get onto the topic of destiel again? I honestly can’t even remember. Alright, let’s do it.

I personally think that yes, the relationship between Dean and Cas can be imbalanced at times, but it comes from both sides. Cas (thank you for not using two ‘s’ btw, I will never know what persuaded the show to do that lol) may be billions of years older than Dean but that does not mean that Dean does not sometimes hold the power in the relationship between the two. For example, Dean is able to hold Cas back physically when we know that should Cas choose to disregard him, Dean could either get hurt or at the very least, be easily brushed aside. This happens quite a few times in the show. Not to mention that Dean sometimes utilizes this bond he has with Cas to his advantage. And when I say utilize it, I’m not talking blatantly. He doesn’t want to lie to Cas or trap him in the ring of Holy fire in 6x20 but it’s a necessity so they can get to the bottom of what is going on with Cas and to figure out if he is working with Crowley, to find out why Cas is spying on them. For all of the points you made about Cas, please know that the same could be easily said about Dean. We saw Dean beat Cas up in 10x22 and while some like to claim it’s the Mark of Cain making him do it, it’s not. Dean’s theme plays when Cas asks him to stop and Dean comes back to beat him up more and grab the angel blade. Dean purposely doesn’t kill Cas and warns him to stay away from him (and also for Sam to stay away from him, the two people he feels he needs to protect from himself), Dean feels guilty over it which we see in 11x03 when he doesn’t allow Cas to heal him (after Cas beat him up while under a spell, because it truly wasn’t Cas while Dean was himself when he beat up Cas and Dean knows that), and we see that Cas allows him to do all of it. While Dean gives Cas a moment’s opportunity to take his hand off of his shoulder and to back off, Dean knows Cas will allow him to do whatever to him (because, again, Cas has allowed him to before and Dean is not ignorant to how important he is to Cas with the whole profound bond thing) and that enables him to go as far as he did in that fight. But to be fair to Dean, Cas also does take advantage similarly which we also have seen happen. A great example is Cas using his knowledge of where Dean hides the Colt in order to “borrow” it as well as Cas using his knowledge about the Winchesters (as well as Lisa and Ben’s unexpected kidnapping) to clear the way for him and his objective of getting the souls from Purgatory to defeat Raphael. They both did it, time and time again, but by the end of the series, I will say that I think they were evened out or more appropriately balanced out, as much as they could be, while still remaining a billion year old angel and a forty something human hunter. And what was the final catalyst in that balance? The 15x09 apology confession done on Dean’s knees, an earnest prayer when faced with the possibility that Cas might be stuck in Purgatory once again or possibly die again. From then on, if you watch their story closely, it’s fairly balanced between them up until Cas’ death in 15x18.

If you would like a great example of abusive/imbalanced power dynamics in a relationship outside of the SPN universe, may I suggest that you look at Jon and Daenerys in Game of Thrones, especially in episode 8x04 in the bedroom scene? As well as the fireplace scene in 8x05? Pure, solid examples of abusive power dynamics and imbalance in a relationship. Then compare destiel (and even wincest) to that.

Okay, allow me to state this distinction: destiel does not glorify abuse, wincest does. Here’s how: wincest itself does not glorify abuse as a standalone; the celebration of the codependency the boys have in response to what happened to them as children does. When people make posts and/or comments and tweets stating how much they love the codependency both brothers have and how it’s proof of their “love” for each other while being aware of how toxic and unhealthy it is and how it formed between them, that’s glorifying the abuse. You don’t see that with destiel (or at least I personally haven’t). You just stated yourself that you have read destiel meta with thousands of notes where the meta writers have discussed the imbalanced/abusive power dynamics between Dean and Cas and how that’s problematic. Thus, they are aware of the problem and not celebrating it. Do you see the difference? It’s not the ships themselves that glorify the abuse, it’s the shippers. And I don’t want to generalize obviously, there are some wincest shippers that don’t glorify the abuse and just want both boys to be happy. But trust me, there is definitely a difference when it comes to both ship groups when it comes to this topic. And the show/writers must agree (on the DeanCas front), because Cas’ romantic confession in 15x18 was prefaced by the words that Dean needed to hear and process about himself, to release himself from his anger, and ultimately contributed to leaving him in a healthier place by the end of the series. It also helped him to make the decision not to kill Chuck. “See, that’s not who I am.”

Which then brings me to my next point, destiel is canon. Say it loud and say it proud, folks. By what happened in 15x18, by Cas telling Dean “I love you” with romantic intention, that brings destiel as a subject matter into the universe and into canon. Dean didn’t have to respond or reciprocate. Even if he had responded and said “thanks dude, I’m flattered but I don’t feel the same” that doesn’t negate destiel as a principle becoming canon. Because Cas being in love with Dean is now something that has been brought in-universe to both characters’ attention as well as the audience’s. Therefore, it is canon.

A lot of people get hung up on the canon vs fanon discussion but they miss one of the most important and basic points of that topic. Canon means something that is an official part of the story. For example, John and Mary were set up by Heaven and fell in love after Cupid shot them with his arrows. That’s canon. John went on a revenge quest after Mary was killed by the YED and he raised both of their sons to be hunters. That’s canon. Dean loves his car. That’s canon. Jody lost her husband and child. Donna’s ex-husband Doug treated her horribly. Bobby possessed a maid from a hotel in order to try to exact vengeance on Dick Roman. Cas likes to visit the Heaven of a man who relives a calm Tuesday afternoon over and over again. Jack copies Dean’s movements to try to be like him in the beginning of season 13. Werewolves can be killed by silver. Blood sigils can banish angels. All of this is canon. So if Cas is telling Dean he loves him romantically, even if Dean himself didn’t hear it or wasn’t conscious when Cas said it, it is still canon. What it is not because the show chose to remain ambiguous on this topic after Cas’ confession and it wasn’t confirmed one way or the other, is the canon romantic relationship between Dean and Cas. They didn’t go on a date, Dean didn’t respond, they didn’t buy a house together or kiss on a bench in a park, etc. The mutual romantic relationship is not canon.

For example, we see Kaia return from The Bad Place and she is ready to go with Jody back to her home. She asks if Claire will be there which Jody confirms, but ultimately we never see Kaia or Claire say “I love you” to each other or go on a date or do anything romantic, but a lot of people accept that relationship as canon. Why? Because of what Jody says before Kaia appears, about her being Claire’s first love and how much Claire is still affected by losing Kaia. And it’s obvious it’s requited because of Kaia then later asking if Claire will be at Jody’s. That is a canon relationship because both sides were shown, though Jody was used in proxy of Claire speaking for herself.

Another example outside of the SPN universe is (SPOILER ALERT) Ryan and Sophie in Batwoman. This is now a confirmed canon relationship. But before it launched into the actual romance itself, there were flirtations, romantic tension, and all that entails. Wildmoore (as they are called) was already canon on principle because of Luke asking Ryan if she was flirting with Sophie on a mission, and then of course everything that happened after that. The relationship itself just hadn’t become canon yet (until it did). Another relationship that exemplifies canon vs fanon is the one between Sophie and Alice or aka Sophice. A lot of people noticed the chemistry between the two when they started to interact more once Ryan appeared on the scene, but this is a fanon relationship. Nothing wrong with it at all (I like the idea myself tbh though I am Wildmoore all the way) but the idea of that pairing has not been introduced into the story as an actual idea. There is no romantic tension, no flirtation, etc. You never had Mary commenting on how Sophie was flirting with Alice or Sophie and Alice acting like fake girlfriends in a situation while checking each other out and commenting on each other’s appearance. It’s currently a fanon relationship. Luke and Mary, sure, there’s been a lot of hints but it hasn’t officially been brought into the universe romantically as of yet. It looks like they may go that way, but as of right now, it’s not canon, in principle or in relationship. There is a distinct difference in canon vs fanon, and how canon actually happens.

My whole long point is that once something is brought to the characters’ attention in the story and thus the audience’s, it is canon. Because it’s an official part of the story. It could be anything from an idea of a romantic pairing between two other characters to how a character felt in a scene (like Ryan did with Jada and Marquis) to what a character prefers to do on a Friday night even (like so and so like to go bowling at this particular alley every Friday at 7pm sharp). No matter how big or small the detail, if it becomes part of the official story (on screen or in a book), it’s canon.

Listen, I applaud you for reading destiel meta when it��s obvious that you don’t care for the ship. I really do. And 99% of the time, I would be like you, interested to see all sides to a situation (or a ship) and take whatever resonates or that I find interesting while leaving the rest. However, when it comes to wincest in particular, I cannot do that. It’s not because of any hatred or disdain I have for the pairing or its shippers/meta writers. It’s because the idea makes me extremely uncomfortable. And it makes me extremely uncomfortable because Dean is essentially Sam’s parent, up until they are able to place proper boundaries on their relationship and restore it back to a brotherly one by the end of the series. Parent/child incest is horrifying and absolutely disgusting, even if only fictional, I don’t care who that statement offends. You want to talk about abusive power dynamics and imbalance in relationships, there you go. Going by what you said above, am I saying that fictional parent/child shippers should be in jail? If the children are underage, then yeah. Because that’s indicative of a whole other problem and even more disgusting while also being incredibly worrisome. If the children are of age, no. But either way, I want nothing to do with that topic and I don’t care who is offended by that or who thinks of me as being judgmental or critical about it. It 👏 is 👏 disturbing. And in no way will my mind ever change on that.

So, essentially, wincest makes me extremely uncomfortable because it is very close to that line. Had Dean not been Sam’s parent at all (and if it also hadn’t been a byproduct of abuse both boys suffered), I probably wouldn’t even bat an eyelash. I wouldn’t say I would ship it, obviously not based on the topic of incest and universe rules that we discussed, but it would just go into the pool of several other ships that I don’t ship but have a very ship-and-let-ship attitude about, like Chestervelle or Megstiel or Dean/Lisa or John/Mary, etc.

But unlike you, I blame the show for glorifying abuse and not the shippers. The show literally put Sam and Dean together for eternity, had Dean wait for Sam like he had no other purpose even after his death. But that's what the show chose to do so there's nothing I can do. What I won't do is to police other ppl for shipping things that make me uncomfortable. As long as they don't force me to believe their version (you know like hellers do) I don't care.

Well, I already discussed above how the shippers are actually the ones who do glorify the abuse so I won’t repeat myself. However, I’d like to address the points you made here. How is Sam and Dean being together for eternity 1) confirming them as a romantic pairing/soulmates and 2) glorifying the abuse? Once again, wouldn’t you want to be with your family for eternity once you have passed on? Or would you prefer to be alone and never see them again? I truly don’t understand how if a family member waits for you in the afterlife that this is then seen as they can’t move on without you or indicates that their soul is tied to yours or that they are somehow in love with you. Look at the series finale of The Vampire Diaries, do you also believe that Damon and Stefan are soulmates and that Stefan couldn’t move forward without Damon being there? That Elena’s family couldn’t either? Like…? Why wouldn’t you want to be with your family and your loved ones for eternity if given the option? The show didn’t have Dean waiting for Sam like he had no other purpose, not the way you’re implying. Dean was doing something he loved (driving in Baby) until Sam got there, because everyone else in his family both OG and TFW 2.0 was already in Heaven with him. Not to mention, it goes hand in hand with the point I made above about how important Sam is to Dean, because not only is he his little brother and his friend, but he also still feels responsible for him and cares for him. Of course he was going to wait for Sam until the latter got there. Even if he and Sam weren’t that close, let’s say. Sam is a part of both his family of origin and the family he chose/built for himself. Nothing about that screams romantic or soulmates, I’m sorry. That’s just a basic idea of everyone being together, which is exactly what Bobby says to Dean in 15x20 when talking about how Jack and Cas had changed up Heaven before he got there. “The way it should have always been.” That’s all it was. So in essence, that’s not the show glorifying the abuse or even wincest in general.

Anon, I have to be honest. It seems like you have a lot of gripes with individual groups in this fandom and that’s totally fine. But I kind of feel that you’re coming to me with all of said gripes, not for the sake of discourse, but to make me have to answer to them all. Whether that be destiel, Cockles, Jensen critics, anti-wincesters, or anti-J2ers, SPN itself, etc. And ultimately, I’m not responsible for any group or anything to do with each of them. I am only responsible for how I choose to conduct myself on this social media platform we’re on. And I can tell you 100% that I am not a heller in the derogatory sense that you are implicating me (and essentially my followers) to be. Do I ship destiel? Absolutely. Do I write meta about them and showcase how the show was going there even before 15x18 and celebrate the fact that destiel is indeed canon? Yes. In no way do I travel around this site trying to enforce my beliefs on others. The most I’ve done is respond to some of the bullying and harassment I’ve seen others be subject to over the last 2 years (specifically since 15x18 aired) by commenters/posters where they very much are shoving their opinions and beliefs down their throats while also invalidating not only others’ thoughts and feelings they don’t agree with but also invalidating their identities and desire for representation and devaluing them as human beings in general.

You say you don’t care but do you realize that you are technically doing what you said you don’t want people to do to you? I’ve been very open on this blog about what I ship and what I don’t, what I am in favor of and what I’m an anti of. I’ve even made anti-wincest posts as a matter of fact. I tag appropriately and I reblog content along those lines. While I understand and appreciate that you are just sharing your thoughts and we are having a civil discourse, I do wonder why you feel the need to keep trying to impress upon me through these 2 asks (and particularly this one) that essentially, destiel is bad and wincest is good. I’m glad if you felt my ask box was a safe space where you could share these opinions, I think that’s important, but you are stating them in such a way that I do feel like you are trying to police my beliefs and what I choose to ship, etc. I have no idea who you are (obviously you’re on anon) so I’m not sending you any asks obviously but you do not see me going to pro-wincest blogs to state my beliefs in a similar manner to how you are stating things here. Just some food for thought.

I actually agree with you here, Anon. I don’t ship J2, Cockles, Jenneel, Jarevieve, Kimilia, Bennifer, or any other RPF pairing, actually romantically involved or not. It’s just not my cup of tea. I don’t judge others who do, the ones who like you said, maintain appropriate boundaries. The rest of it? I’m not a fan. Those who are super pushy and disrespectful about it, completely disregarding the fact that these are human beings who have personal lives along with marriages/relationships and/or families? That is not only distasteful but also very disturbing. And that is where the point I made about Jensen and Co needing to assert boundaries comes in. Should the fans automatically respect them? Absolutely. But those guys also need to enforce them. For example, I now have better context on what you mentioned about the supposed Cockles kiss request. I know now that Misha and Jensen talked about them giving up and giving in to fan requests at photo ops, in separate panels. This is exactly what I was talking about in your previous ask. Jensen and Misha should have kept saying no and maintaining that boundary. But they didn’t and chose to indulge (or at the very least, keep from declining) some of the more specific requests brought to them that might have made them uncomfortable at some point. That’s not victim blaming; that’s stating that the person who has the power in the situation (ultimately J & M) should have enforced the boundary if they didn’t want to ever acquiesce to a certain type of photo op request/have a certain type of fan interaction. While people shouldn’t ask them to kiss, for example, they also shouldn’t give in and kiss if it makes them uncomfortable. They shouldn’t give in or be worn down is my point.

Jensen is not in any way homophobic that I’ve personally seen. To be fair, I don’t know the man, only the public persona he presents (and even then our knowledge is limited), but based on what I’ve seen and read from the guy himself, I don’t see that. Not only has he been involved with an outreach program for the LGBTQIA community but he also has a family member that is a member of that community that he appears to be close with. Not to mention that there have been reports (from either people who knew him back then or himself) that he defended a classmate back in school who was gay, from what I'm not exactly sure but I assume it was bullying. The man is constantly evolving and growing/learning (like any other human being) and he has a come long way from his younger days and a time period where the idea of someone being gay was okay but was still treated as “the other” and something you didn’t want to talk about or focus on too much. It took years for society to start evolving past this (and we obviously still have a long way to go) and media helped with that in the forms of films like Brokeback Mountain and television shows such as The L Word and Queer As Folk as well as same sex marriage finally being legalized countrywide in the US. Gay, Lesbian, and LGBTQIA characters were always kept on the outskirts of the main story in any film/televsion show/book (if they were there at all), but now they were (and are) being moved to the forefront (as they should be) as the mains. Now, today, we have not only a Black Batwoman but also a Black Lesbian Batwoman. We have Henrietta Wilson in 9-1-1 who is a Black Lesbian firefighter. That was all unheard of even five years ago. We also have Clarke Griffin in the 100 who is a Bisexual Female main character. We have Love, Simon. We have TK and Carlos in 9-1-1:Lonestar or aka Tarlos as a main couple of the show. We even have Crowley in SPN who was confirmed (by the story events) to be Pansexual. And we’re continuing to get more and more representation as each day passes, not just for LGBTQIA but also the Transgender community as well as for POC and Women. Jensen, Jared, and all the rest have also evolved as has everyone else that works in the industry with how they approach certain topics and how they address things publicly. I don’t pretend to speculate or know what Jensen and Jared think in their heads obviously but it appears that as individuals they have also grown with the times.

The fans who do call Jensen homophobic are obviously not real fans. They don’t listen to what the guy says or what his actions speak louder than any words of his could. They’re simply saying that because based on the context you’re giving here in your examples, he didn’t say something they wanted to hear. Saying destiel isn’t real isn’t homophobic, it’s invalidating. There’s a difference. Of course people were going to be upset when he said that (I wasn’t around then myself) because it invalidates their reading/interpretation of events going on in the show. Which you yourself stated above that people have the right to, which let’s face it, is just basic common sense and all fans/viewers should understand that not everyone will see things in the show the same way. But it also probably upset some because by those words, Jensen just unintentionally gave ammunition to certain hateful sections of this fandom that do jump on destiel posts and hate on said poster, that keep insisting Dean is straight and only likes women, and that there’s something wrong with those people (yep, I’ve seen a TON of this the last two years on here myself, especially after what Jared said at Denver Con 2021). And speaking as someone who is LGBTQIA, that shit is tiring to say the least. It’s exhausting, it’s hurtful, and it’s toxic. So naturally people were going to be upset when he said that. I think he’s learned from it (and possibly other examples), though, and that is why he is so careful to keep saying now that people can interpret the DeanCas relationship and Cas’ “I love you” how they want to. (even though Misha did say it was intended to be romantic and Berens wrote it with that intention)

Here’s what I think when Jensen says he didn’t play Dean as bi:

1) That’s a genuine answer because he is the actor who read the scripts, got noted by directors, and most likely discussed his character’s progression with not only the writers but also Kripke at one time or another. Not to mention, he has lived inside that character’s skin for 15 years and has gotten to know him pretty well. So if he didn’t assimilate a possibly different romantic or sexual orientation into his performance, he didn’t. It doesn’t take away from the edits or scripts that the show had, but he as a performer, did not come from that place in his performance. That’s fine. It’s his personal read on the character and his interpretation, and obviously this carries weight because once again, he had inside knowledge of the character and the story, being that he played Dean himself.

2) This does not take away from anyone’s interpretation of Dean being bi. Once again, the show chose to air certain takes of scenes/edited shots and include lines of dialogue that very much implicate that there is a strong possibility that Dean has a slight interest in various male characters. It may be unintentional most of the time but there is absolutely queer coding in there, and at the very least it produces the possibility of had destiel become a canon relationship in the show (with non-binary Cas obviously not being really male, only in a male presenting body) or Dean had been with another male character for either a sexual encounter, a flirtation, or a date, that it would be possible and not completely out of left field. If you don’t believe there is queer coding in how Dean was written, allow me to give you two examples. A) Do we ever question Sam’s supposed romantic or sexual orientations? Are we ever surprised when Sam gets involved with a woman? Whether that be Eileen or Amelia or that diner waitress or even Blurry Wife? Was him being romantically and sexually attracted to women ever doubted? No. And why? Because Sam wasn’t written with queer coding. B) Kripke has talked about in the past how Dean was not only to be the Hans Solo of this universe but that he also gleaned slightly from On the Road by Jack Kerouac. Dean Moriarty is based on Neal Cassady who not only was sexually promiscous but also reportedly had an on again/off again sexual relationship with Allen Ginsberg for years. It’s not much of a stretch, especially with the things/hints that the show chose to include in their final edits and air, for some to interpret Dean as bisexual or at the very least biromantic. Subtext is very much a thing (look at Buffy and Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer for example, look at Brooke and Rachel in One Tree Hill, particularly the scene where they join the Clean Teen club aka subtext) and it is peppered throughout the show, particularly when it comes to Dean and Cas, especially in season 8 and beyond.

3) Even though I stated above that Jensen has grown, there is one actor who I would love to quote, as his attitude towards it all is the right one and should be the model that all actors should follow moving forward. That actor is Oliver Stark from 9-1-1. He himself replied to a comment left on one of his Instagram posts, where the commenter was telling people to stop forcing a gay ship (i.e. Buddie) onto the actors and to quit making them uncomfortable. And here was his response:

Pure perfection. And you know why? Because this is exactly how an actor should look at a character that they’re playing. The romantic and sexual orientations may be key components to the character just as much as say what happened to them in childhood, what their relationship with their parents is like, did they get their heart broken in high school or college, did they ever try drugs, did they ever go to jail, what kind of job do they have, how do they respond when in a situation, etc., but that’s all they are. They essentially make up the character. It’s not something to be feared or that would make someone uncomfortable or the other. That narrative of LGBTQIA being the other needs to stop. Love is love and that’s it. Any actor worth their salt knows this to be true and doesn’t let it hinder their performances or prevent them from taking a role (unless they are truly uncomfortable and decline it instead but if they take it, then they should not be surprised and uncomfortable should something develop in the character or within the story line, especially if they discuss it with the writers/showrunners). Each different character they portray that is human is just that: human. And last I checked, we have 7.9 billion different versions of those running around the planet.

As for Jensen’s own discomfort, I am willing to bet (though tbf like I said above I’m not inside the man’s head) this had more to do with how he sees the character and plays him, his own interpretation of the material he was presented with when filming the show, based on the discussions he had with Kripke, Singer, and the writers/showrunners. I don’t think he was uncomfortable with the idea of Dean being bi or being in love with Cas or any other male character for the sake of being uncomfortable about the character’s purported sexuality or romantic orientation. He played a bisexual character in Blonde after all, and had no issues with it. I believe he even stated at some point when asked by a fan should they choose to make Eric Brady gay in the show, that he would be okay with it. (tbf, I’ve never seen the show so I have no idea what the context of this fan ask was) And like I said above, he’s not homophobic. I think he was initially uncomfortable when people suggested Dean might be bi and that he might be in love with Cas because that’s not how he was trying to play the character. I think it all comes down to his performance for him, as it does for any natural born story teller. But that’s just my opinion. I obviously don’t know him personally and can’t 100% speak for him on that.

As for the nude fanart and his boundaries, it all goes back to what I’ve been saying all along. He needs to assert his boundaries and people need to stop bringing that stuff to him. It’s my understanding that these guys have handlers at cons that they do and from what I’ve read (I’ve never gone myself nor will I to be quite honest), everything they sign in autos needs to go through the handler first before being passed to them. If Jensen truly didn’t want to see a Dean dick pic for example or Dean and Cas getting it on in a painting, then he could refuse to sign or better yet, he could tell the handler 'if you see this, tell them thanks but no thanks'. Honestly, I have no idea if he ever signed anything that was nude for Dean or destiel or wincest related. But again, he has the power to do that, to say no. And do I think fans should be bringing these things to him or to Jared or to Misha to sign or to show them? No, I don’t. Once again, I’ll use the example of reverse roles. If these guys were bringing this kind of art to actresses to have them sign, that’s not appropriate. Say if male fans brought a painting that was NSFW and/or sexual for WildMoore to Javicia or Meagan to sign, that’s not appropriate. NSFW artwork should remain in the fandom imho. However, if the painting is a SFW kiss between two individuals or them holding hands or hugging or laying down together or on a date, I don’t see the harm. At that point, it becomes again about Jensen’s (and these guys’) boundaries and what he feels comfortable signing.

And while I agree with you about how sad it is how Jensen has been treated over the years, once again, it’s up to him on what he allows in a fan interaction. He can’t control what people tweet or say about him online or in videos, but he does have the power to curate his interactions with fans at cons, for photo ops or autos or even how he chooses to answer a question in a panel (or not answer if he doesn’t want to answer). That also goes for Jared, Misha, the rest of the SPN cast, and any other celebrity/performer. Boundaries, I will keep saying it until the end of the time. And anyone who doesn’t respect those boundaries once they’re asserted and keep being asserted doesn’t belong in the convention centers. That’s the bottom line. It's a basic truth.

What you need to understand is this. J2 aren't anti wincest or destiel.

I do understand that and while I don’t think it was your intention to come across this way, that statement is slightly condescending. But yes, I agree. Actors are not their characters. I don’t know how many times I’ve said this in the past two years as have others on this site, the ones who have a clear distinction between fantasy and reality. For example, Jensen is a bit of a sore topic for me right now (not the man himself but what I mentioned above), but I have no aversion to Dean content whatsoever. Why? Because I can compartmentalize and I know what’s real vs what’s not. So please don’t assume that I or anyone else you interact with here that may be a destiel blog or even a cockles or J2 one don’t also have this understanding.

As in, they don't care if you ship either. J2 joke about wincest. Send wincest fanfiction/art to each other. Prank Alex. They don't even care if you ship J2 or cockles. They might have in early years, but like I said, they had to get used to it. But they care when you blast your ship in their face and ask them to validate it. They didn't play wincest or destiel. Jensen didn't play a bi character. Didn't play Dean as in love with Cas or Sam.

Yes, and they also don’t care if you ship destiel. Despite what Jensen may have said in the past, he also has made jokes with Jared and Misha about it. As a matter of fact, after 15x18 aired, Jensen himself stated that he and Misha were exchanging fan reactions to the confession scene (which if you think about it, it's very interesting because if Cas’ confession wasn’t romantic, then why were they so interested in the reaction to the confession itself? Makes you think, doesn’t it? Because if it was just about Cas' death/ending, Misha may have shared those with Jensen but Jensen didn't need to remark on it publicly. Hmm 🤔). Jensen did watch a few of those reactions. He stated as much after that episode aired.

I get what you’re saying about fans asking the guys to validate their ships but I do have to ask, do you think wincest shippers haven’t done the same? (does anyone remember when this person Kelios supposedly disagreed with Jensen on how he and Jared performed a Sam and Dean hug? I think it was at a Jibcon?) I’m not saying it’s appropriate. I do think some of them are honestly looking for validation for their reading of the show because it matters to them and they want to know they are on the right track or to have hope for either ship to come down the line. I also think some of them (namely destiel shippers and bi Dean fans) are looking for validation in representation which is even more important to them. Especially in a show that exuded toxic masculinity to a tee in earlier years and it was lacking in main LGBTQIA representation. Where the show in earlier years treated the idea of being gay as a punch line to a joke every single time it came up.

It's exactly why Jared talked about platonic love in Denver con. They are graciously allowing you your interpretation but asking you to not impose your views on them. Think about that.

Okay, number 1) It’s not gracious to allow fans to interpret the story and/or characters as they do. No one can tell you how to interpret something. Which is why wincest still goes strong even though the show has never confirmed them as canon, in principle or in relationship, but people refuse to hear the whole “They do know we’re brothers, right? Oh come on, that’s just sick” line in 4x18 that Dean said as well as Dean’s line in 10x05 “You know they’re brothers, right? Why don’t you take a substep back there, ladies?” along with Dean telling “Dean” and “Sam” to stand as close as they want but then also saying “I want you to put as much sub into that text” to “Cas” while she nods in response. They refuse to acknowledge that while the actors and show may not have a problem with people shipping the brothers together, it’s not somewhere they ever intended to go in that universe. The relationship was purely familial/brothers. Hence why Dean and Sam are not confessing romantic ILY’s to each other ever in the series, even in the end. Their ILY's are familial only. "I love you, my baby brother." It's right there. But regardless, people still see what they see and interpret how they interpret. Like Jensen said, he likened it to an analogy of two people looking at a painting. Person A may see something different than Person B and he is not going to be the person to tell either of them what they saw or invalidate their interpretations. So to use the word gracious for them allowing to happen what has been happening with art for decades, in all different forms, is incorrect. People will see and interpret no matter what the actors say, no matter what the show does or says, and no matter what some of the fandom says, even when presented with solid evidence that would hold up in a court trial with judge included and Jensen and Co testifying to prove to them that hey, this is what the show was trying to get across to the viewers on this particular subject/part of the show. And when people are asking for validation, that does not equate to them imposing their views on the actors. Imposing their views would be to cancel Jensen for example for saying destiel isn’t real. That’s imposing your views. Asking for validation is very different.

Number 2) Do not even get me started on what Jared said at Denver Con last year, please. That was not a validation for platonic love. That was homophobic and acephobic rhetoric that was actually harmful to the LGBTQIA community. Listen to those words again, pick them apart if you need to, break it down but for the love of the planet, that is NOT validation in how you or any wincest shipper/Jared stan thinks it is. That speech even superseded the topics of destiel, wincest, and even SPN. I’ve already spoken at length on this topic and just how harmful it was and also from a destiel perspective. I’m not diving back into it again. It took me quite a while to put that out of my mind and come back to my love of SPN on this site, and it also made me anti Jared. Not anti in the sense of I hate the guy or keep digging at him repeatedly, I don’t. I just don’t support him and really don’t care to see content of him come across my dash at all if it can be helped. I wish him well and hope he learns, but I’m out when it comes to him. You disagree? That’s totes fine but I won’t be discussing it further here, I’ve already said what I needed to say on this topic.

While you are correct that each individual viewer has the right to interpret the 15x18 confession scene how they interpret it, one thing that is not up for interpretation was the intent with which the scene was written and performed. You can still certainly see it as platonic if that’s what makes you feel better when it comes to this topic, but you can’t debate what has been said by the actor of the scene on not only how he tailored his performance to the written intention of the scene but also the discussion he had with the writer of the episode. (again, if not romantic, why the line 'Dean can't reciprocate' in the script? If it was just platonic or brotherly?) Jensen had to give his approval on it in order for the scene to even make it to production. (and again, if the confession wasn’t romantic, why did Jensen need to approve it? To use your words “think about that”) So if Misha says he acted that scene with romantic intention, then that’s it. Because you can’t make the argument about Jensen not acting Dean with bi intent or romantic intent when it comes to Cas and we should respect that, but then dismiss what Misha is saying about the 15x18 scene being intentionally romantic and that's how he acted it out. You just can’t. It’s one or the other. You can’t have both. Either we take what Jensen says at face value about Dean and what Misha says about Cas, or we don’t for both. That’s it.

And just a bit of background for you, the CW did do market research for destiel in 2016. They only decided to go through (halfway) with it in the final season. Feel free to look for those receipts on this site. They would have never done market research for that particular subject if there wasn’t a simple thought or discussion about it going on behind the scenes, just saying.

I brought up cockles shippers coz they're currently everywhere. J2 ship is almost dead. Cockles isn't. Cockles shippers are also notorious for stalking and harassing Jensen and even Misha. For getting their medical records, utility bills. Look up occamshipper person. They stalk Jensen's location. There are plenty more who do the same. These shippers have sent Jared death threats. Creation found these threats credible and has recently increased his security because of them. They have tried to cancel Walker. They have spread baseless rumours about Jared(like he's a sexual harasser) and these posts have hundreds of thousands of notes.

It’s interesting that you brought up occamshipper. I did not know who this person was until recently. Regardless of whether they ship Cockles or J2 or aren’t shippers at all, stalking, harassment, threats, and doxxing are NEVER okay. Obviously. I think that goes without being said really. I’m glad Jared has increased security. All of these guys should be safe at these conventions. Unfortunately, there are some people out there that are disturbed and resort to disgusting tactics like death threats or threats of violence upon a person. It is good that CE is taking it seriously and is stepping up security.

Once again, I don’t know anything about alleged sexual harassment claims made against Jared nor do I know anything about Walker or its run. I refused to watch Walker after the finale aired and have kept true to that. The only thing I’ve heard about Walker recently on this site is that Lindsey Morgan left the show. That’s it.

I don’t really know anything about the J2 ship fandom nor do I really care. That isn’t the circle I travel in so to speak. Same goes for Cockles. I enjoy Jensen and Misha’s friendship and their interactions and even some jokes on here (like ‘Jensen, do you know your husband is traveling around the country eating food on camera?’ which are innocent and harmless when they’re not sent to the actors or disrespectful to Danneel & their family or malicious in intent; same goes for Jared and Jensen and their panels/interviews) but that’s where it ends for me.

Once again, Anon, I feel that you are holding me personally responsible for the Cockles fandom as well as destiel, that you're holding my feet to the fire, and I will tell you again that not only is it completely unfair to me, but you need to bring these gripes to the appropriate groups you have issues with. Like I said above, I don’t mind civil discourse and I don’t mind my ask box being a safe space for those who just want to have said respectful discussions or to vent, but how on earth could I possibly answer for all of the Cockles fandom when I’m not even in that section of fandom myself? I feel that you are just venting your frustration and that’s fine, but continuing this particular part of the conversation I don’t feel would be productive for either of us. Nothing I say for or against these shippers and that fandom could possibly shed any more light on the subject or be helpful to anyone including yourself. So this will be the last time I touch upon the Cockles topic.

Jared, who has mhi, who wanted to quit in S10 but only stayed coz he didn't want the crew to loss jobs, who literally cried himself to sleep everyday coz he couldn't handle the pressure. This man who donates millions to LGBT charities and who suffered so much during supernatural, they bully and harass him because of a rpf ship. They send him death threats. When shipping has real life impacts like this, it needs to be called out. You talked about a fictional ship(wincest) hurting real life people and here I have given you the real hurt caused by cockles shippers/hellers.

Once more, let me reiterate that I have no idea what you are referring to. I have no idea what Jared endured during the filming of SPN in earlier seasons. Let me remind you, I only dove into the fandom as recently as 2020, which obviously season 10 and anything occurring around that time was way before that. I only know of Jared’s initiative/campaign of AFK that he started. That’s it. While I didn’t mind Jared and I liked Sam as I watched SPN over the years, I wasn’t a fan of him so to speak and so I didn’t follow his career at all. I was a fan of Jensen and did follow his career but I didn’t know anything about his personal life or who he was as a person or anything pertaining to that until I got involved in the fandom. Before that, I had no idea who he was married to, how many kids he had, how he spoke at cons (I hadn’t watched a single Jibcon video for example), that he could sing, that he had a brewery in Austin, etc. So, if I didn’t know anything about Jensen like that before 2020, imagine how little I knew about Jared and Misha.

And also let me remind you that while you speak of what Jared has suffered (who shouldn’t be forced to endure or suffer any of this horrible treatment he got that you’re referring to), do you really think that Jensen and Misha have not received the same type of treatment from disturbed groups of fans at one point in time or another? Despite the good things they have done in the name of charity? Despite their positive interactions with their fans? I’m not saying any of it’s right, of course it’s not, but they all have gone through it. Should they have had to? No, ofc not. But they have all been through it. If you ask me, Jared seems to be doing better now and appears to be happy. (I’ve only seen him in con photos/videos with Jensen) So despite the increased security threat he may currently be under at cons, he is still living his best life and doing well and isn’t that all we could want for the guy? Same goes for Jensen and Misha. In no way am I saying any of this treatment or behavior is okay, I just want to clarify. I’m just saying the three of them will be okay and hopefully the people who are doing such abhorrent behaviors are caught and then be subject to the consequences of said behaviors.

Okay, I only said that wincest is harmful to people because it glorifies abuse (which we determined up above that it’s more the shippers that do that, not the ship itself). I think you’re either misreading/misunderstanding or misconstruing my words. I even gave you specific points in that previous ask that prove what I said. As an abuse survivor myself, I absolutely can recognize and point out how abuse being glorified is harmful. To dismiss the fact of abuse being glorified as harmful is not just dismissive but also deeply concerning. I’m not saying you’re wrong with what you’ve said about the extreme behaviors of a select few when it comes to Jared or Jensen or Misha, but it doesn’t negate the point that a ship, fictional or otherwise, having abuse glorified within it is harmful. To imply that the harm this does is not “real” because it’s a fictional ship vs RPF ships is absolutely hurtful itself and very cold and apathetic. Please keep that in mind when going forward and interacting with others on this site. You never know who is an abuse survivor and who is not (unless they specifically tell you or speak on their experience), and you never know what someone has been through. So please, if nothing else, please hear what I’m saying to you here.

Have a nice day.

You say that you don’t have the energy to respond to my last paragraphs on the previous ask but you keep expending energy to keep making the same point over and over again. I’ve already said what I’m going to say about Jensen and his boundaries up above and due to the energy I’ve expended in replying to your ask here as well as the harassment I received from AA’s for having the audacity to criticize two things Jensen said in his podcast interview with MR, I’m not going to keep repeating myself and I’m also not going to continue to touch upon the topic. As I said above, if you feel that’s victim blaming, that’s how you choose to take it/interpret it. I know for a fact that it isn’t and many experts in different fields would agree. Because it’s basic common sense. We as a society obviously have a longer way to go in our understanding of boundaries and all they entail, especially when it comes to enforcing them and teaching other people how we want to be treated. That’s not victim blaming, Anon, but like I said, your choice on how you interpret it.

Personally, Anon, while I feel that you made a lot of good points here, it’s obvious to me that you’re very frustrated on some of these topics you mentioned. For example, you apparently have a lot of anger towards the Cockles fandom/shippers and even seem to have a distaste for destiel. That’s all fine and good, it’s your prerogative, but I myself don’t have anger or frustration towards either group. I am a self-professed destiel shipper; I’ve never pretended to be anything else. I don’t ship Cockles and while I may not care for some of the content clogging the Jensen tag recently (tho tbf I stopped looking at his tag after all of the AA harassment I received a couple of weeks ago), I don’t have any anger or ill will towards the group itself. As in any fandom, in any section of it, there are good and bad apples. And just like in any other group, the bad apples tend to ruin it for everyone else and/or go to the extreme. Cockles, J2 - both have similar good and bad experiences. While I may not agree with the bad’s actions in either group, I don’t hate them or feel anger towards them or wish them ill in any way. I do hope they stop exhibiting any bad or extreme behaviors, especially if they make the actors uncomfortable, but I can’t control them or what they do or say or think. If you want to speak up to them on Jared’s or Jensen’s or Misha’s behalf, by all means, please do so. I myself, however, am not getting involved. If I was in charge of Jared’s or Jensen’s security or married to either one of them or they were my brother or good friend, then obviously that would be a different story. But I’m not and they are not. Alas, I am not stepping up to the plate to take on the world for them, sorry. I doubt they would want me to anyway, even if they were aware of my existence and/or just how much the fandom fights on here. If you want to take up that mantle and defend them against the Big Bads in the Cockles fandom and the SPN fandom in general, go right ahead. Bring all of your valid points to their doorsteps and duke it out with them. I’ll be here in my little corner of the Tumblrverse rooting for you.

Anon, if you ship wincest, then more power to you. I personally am anti wincest and I ship destiel, so I’m not sure how much more of a continued discourse between us would be productive here on this topic. We can agree to disagree because obviously, neither of us are going to change our minds.

I wish you well, too, Anon. I hope you are enjoying your weekend. Btw, I did get your other ask that you asked me not to post and I just want to say I hope you’re feeling better now and that you’re no longer sick. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and perspective, even though we disagreed on a lot. But thank you all the same.

I hope you have a nice rest of your evening. ✌️

#ask #ask answered #anti cockles due to content of ask #J2 mention due to content of ask #anti wincest due to content of reply #destiel #anti wincest #jackles #putting jackles tag due to content of ask #antiwincest

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