#sorry I just love analyzing Byler

[shippingfangirl013]

I know we’ve analyzed this scene over and over again, and someone else has probably pointed this out, but I thought this was interesting.

Will has blue behind him.

Mike has blue and yellow (and green) behind him. And yellow in front of him.

I know we’ve figured out the blue & yellow = Mike & Will and Byler = green.

(I’m also looking right at Mike’s “I asked for vomit green and I got vomit green.” And green = blue + yellow together [byler])

But, I thought it was interesting that the blue light is next to Will, because the boy he loves is right in front of him. Will is wearing blue. He’s talking to Mike, and the blue is there because he’s thinking of Mike and he’s upset over being a third wheel. (Who wouldn’t be?)

Then, we have Mike.

He’s wearing a bluish purple shirt and yellow over it. Just like the flowers, yellow is overwhelming the purple… I wonder why?

The lights behind Mike’s head and in front of his head kind of clue us in on what the characters are thinking about. Mike is thinking about Will as indicated by the single yellow light between them, (because that’s the thing… somehow, Will has always been between Mike and his failing normal relationship with El), and Mike is also thinking about his relationship with Will differently. The lighting is telling us directly what Mike is thinking of… and that’s why he’s so thrown by the “And us?”. Because Will just wants to know where he stands, he thinks that he can live with it if he just rips the bandaid off and moves on from Mike. But Mike took the “And us?” As something more, as if he’s thought of his friendship with Will as something more…

And I think it’s funny & interesting that after this fight, Mike’s wardrobe shifts. And Will’s does too.

This is the aftermath of the roller rink incident. The colors are definitely muted here, they were loud at the roller rink, but here? The colors aren’t as full force, there’s some yellow in Mike’s flannel and there’s some blue and green on Will’s polo. I think the colors are muted here because of the fight, but it’s still showing that they’re thinking of that fight through the clothing itself.

But once Mike and Will have that heart to heart… the loud colors are back again. The clothing isn’t muted anymore, and these are the outfits that they wear for the rest of the season.

I know that the teal shirt was custom made and designed to look different in certain lighting, but what I started thinking about, was the blend of colors and lighting from before.

Blue and green make dark teal, but yellow lightens it up… meaning that Mike is thinking of being with Will in a relationship (blue and green make dark teal) but you need equal parts of blue and green, and equal parts of yellow and green, to make the teal on Mike’s shirt. (Meaning that I think Mike has come to terms with his love for Will and his feelings shifting from friendship to something more by the end of S4. They still have a lot to talk about and discuss… but there’s also a span of 2 days that we didn’t get to see as an audience.)

But Will hasn’t let himself think of being with Mike as an honest option, after the painting. He ripped off the bandaid, he’s trying to allow himself to move on and give up hope that Mike will ever love him in the same way. . . Which is why I think, his shirt is mostly yellow with blue patterned in lightly. And maybe, if they plan to continue with the color theory, we’ll see some changes again in season 5.

But… I keep thinking that Mike’s monologue was a veiled response to Will’s veiled confession in the van… and it would make sense, because they’ve been using El as a cover for every argument (and almost every conversation) in S4. Mike even uses his fight with El to talk to Will about their fight from S3.

I’m just saying, I think early S5 established or almost established Byler is something we could be looking at.

[aceoflanterns]

listen ik shipping whatever is all fun and games but sitting down and thinking about the fact that byler would be widely accepted as A Thing if people weren’t so closed-minded just makes me so tired. like i look at them on screen, no analyzing necessary, and go wow :) they’re in love :) like why is it required for us to write essays about How In Love They Are when no other ship requires so much proof to exist? make it make some damn sense

[silverliing]

Mike’s wall art

I love seeing analysis about ST set design because it really spells out so much of the story without verbally telling you, and ive seen much discussion abt the details of mike’s room in s4 (that one way sign haunts me btw). buuut there are two pieces of visible wall art that I don’t really see get talked about on here (that i’ve read) and I just have a few things to say about them and what i think they might be telling us about Mike’s character and upcoming journey (hint: going into the UD)(hint: making plans and leading the party)(hint: byler)

so idk if this has been pointed out or if it’s common knowledge atp but the two pieces circled above are lithographs by artist MC Escher; Hand with Reflective Sphere (left)

and Relativity (right)

(a lil hard to see in this screenshot i’m sorry😢)

The artwork is beautiful as you can see (canon Mike Wheeler has great taste in art). Escher was most known for his intricate “impossible constructions” which are optical illusions of paradoxical space, he was also the inventor of the impossible cube:

this is some pretty cool nerdy, mathy stuff that I’d expect mike would be into, but looking at it from the context of his character and the direction of where the story is headed, there were 3 immediate possible readings that popped into my head which point toward 3 different (yet coexisting) directions:

He likes the art — It’s true, this art taps into Mike’s interests. Valid but boring. zzzz. snooze. You could argue that these posters should be taken at face value, but I just feel like in a show like ST —where the main cast knows of and is in various ways affected by an evil alternate dimension— having a character with wall art that references perspective/dimensional anomalies doesn’t really tell us much about his specific character or story. We’ve known that the ST set designers use a character’s space to show us who they are as people, these two artworks need to tell us something about Mike and his journey. And maybe Mike’s sensibilities about the world at large are shifting into nihilism with everything that’s happened in hawkins and the art reflects an absurdist outlook of future (teenage stuff, growing up, etc. etc.)

It foreshadows Mike’s s5 arc — I love this one. Mike is one of the few in the main cast who haven’t been in the upside down proper, so this art could reference not only that he’ll go into the UD in s5 but also that there could be dimensional anomalies involved in his travel or journey there. Perhaps this is how they’ll be able to find Max— by bending the laws of physics and using the mechanics of dimensional travel against itself, perhaps to open new doors or travel in different directions (hint: time travel 😏). And i think the reason this art is in Mike’s wall is bc it will be Mike who formulates the plan to find Max and retrieve her with the help of El and Will’s new powers 😏 (g*d knows i want to see leader Mike make a come back)(and Will with powers).

Will Byers — we know Mike and Will are tied together by the narrative and so I think these artworks could be directly pointing to Will with big red arrows. This point is corroborated by simply analyzing the formal qualities of the artwork, both individually and as a set. Hand with Reflective Sphere is about optics and perspective, about seeing, but also about the flattening of space. Relativity is about space, dimension, and paradox, but also about impossible perspective/vantage point. When read together the objective reading of them is about sight and space and paradox, about how the flattening of space helps us see something new and impossible. While Mike hasn’t experienced the dimensional travel into the UD proper, many of those closest to him atp had; El, Will, Nancy… but the reason i think these two posters remind him of Will specifically is because out of everyone else who has been in the UD, only Will experiences the feeling of being stuck there and of seeing into both dimensions at once; the stuck view-master, true sight. Mike associates these things combined (dimensional travel and dimensional sight/perception) with Will.

Also, Mike is a nerdy guy, he seems interested in this kind of stuff for the fun of it so he could’ve had sciency charts that reference the subject of visible light and paradoxes the way Suzie does, but instead he has not one but two fine-art pieces by a pretty big graphic artist that reference the subject of sight and space. Also, Idk what it is about the fact that it’s fine-art and not movie/game/dnd art that makes me also associate it with Will— the self-proclaimed visual artist of the show. The words are all jumbled up in my head rn but; artist. sight. all-encompassing. dimension. paradox. new perspective. -> -> -> -> Will Byers (is this a hint to wills powers??) etc. etc. etc. you get it

Secret 4th option (ties into #2)

Mike gets Vecnaed and this forces him into extensive self-reflection and the labyrinthian trials of finding himself and mastering his fears(maybe he’s already begun his self-searching and that’s why we see this art at the beginning of s4). cue cool musical montage of Mike navigating his own memories and mind-scape to find the answer that will make everything make sense while also hiding from vecna and buying the party time to find a way to end him.

[kiirotoao]

Re: Byler and being best friends

Alright, look, I understand that in real life, best friends can appreciate each other’s art. Best friends look for each other when they’re lost. Best friends stick together in rough patches. Best friends fight and disagree. Best friends apologize when they’ve messed up. Best friends give each other gifts. Best friends confide in each other with almost everything. Best friends can do romantic things and be completely and utterly platonic in real life.

But guess what Stranger Things is not? Real life!!

If any story in media is well-captured and well-written, if the camera sees it, if we see it, then it’s supposed to be important. While friends in real life can do the most questionably romantic things and still claim to be just friends or even just best friends, there’s far more nuance to real people to explore if it’s truly romantic or not, and that’s not for others to openly discern. But we who analyze Byler are not doing this because Mike and Will are real people. They’re characters, crafted into this audio-visual story with pre-written and exclusive history and dreams.

While I know that they say they’re just best friends, I speculate on them potentially being more. Why? Because their stories are interwoven and I see chemistry within the threads. It’s as simple as that.

I preach at the end of almost every video I make, “Byler’s endgame,” and really, that’s a sendoff of encouragement more than anything else. Because I hope and believe that Byler can happen at the end of this season and this overarching story. I’m not pushing two people together. I’m hopeful to see two characters come together and realize that their relationship and feelings can blend into a wonderfully written romance amidst this dangerous and unpredictable world that they’ve been put in.

So please stop comparing Mike and Will to real relationships and saying, can’t best friends just be best friends? Look, yes! You’re right! In real life, best friends can be nothing more and choose to stay that way. But on the other hand, hey, best friends in real life can also become more! No one can deny that! But whatever the weather, whatever can be real isn’t relevant. Real lives are not a TV show. Real lives are not being created and publicized (besides some people in reality TV, which is another unrelated issue). By contrast, as characters, Mike and Will’s lives are. And I love the thought of them finding love in each other at the end of the pages. It gets no finer than that.

And so when I look back at their narratives and see the way they treat each other, interact on screen and see how they think, tell me, am I wrong for shipping them? I’m taking the details and looking beyond explicit labels. And I don’t just go around doing this to all people I see in my life who have chemistry. This is specific, this is the love I witness in this thriller-drama-romance. I’m sorry if I end up fighting against you, but I’m not here to crowd you out. Ship what you want. If you love certain characters together, talk about them! There’s a plethora to talk about for Byler! So honestly, I’m curious, why are you compelled to come to me and try to convert me away from what I love when I often don’t even mention your name? Is there not enough for you to obsess over and love? Is there perhaps not enough textual evidence or good moments to enjoy for your ship? I’m just saying.

At the end of the day, real life experiences and examples are practically void when we’re talking about art, and please, please let me have fun with my ships. This is the internet. If you don’t like it, use your capabilities and settings and scroll or block what you don’t like, and pursue what you do. Unless you want to join a forum to discuss the arguments, I think that it’s unfair to think that those who don’t ship your ship are going to talk about your ship. I’m not responsible for what you consume and see. Really, no one is but yourself.

I like to think that I’m rather patient, but I don’t know, I think I’m tearing at the seams a little after a few years in this fandom. This is directed to no one in particular, though, so please don’t take this as a direct callout. I just wanted to get this off my chest. Sorry if I got a little harsh in the end, there, too.

Thank you to those who’ve engaged very respectfully with me even if you disagree with my opinions. I hope that I’m respectful, in turn. I love lighthearted debates, but I don’t love repeating myself to some who don’t want to listen. And of course, thank you Bylers. I’ve met so many wonderful people through our silly journeys going crazy together. That’s all. 💙💛

[ven0moir]

As someone who's been obsessively analyzing ST for about a year now, it makes me so sad that the only thing keeping me at 99% certainty of Byler being endgame is the fear that we might get queerbaited.

It pains me that if Will was a girl, I would have 0 doubt left. Especially because with all of the evidence there is to back up the writers INTENTIONS (yes, they 100% intended to queercode both Mike AND Will at this point), if Byler isn't endgame then that means the Duffers INTENTIONALLY queerbaited us. In the year 2025.

And then I circle back on this thought and think ... why would they queerbait? Why would they specifically use Byler to do so? If they wanted to draw in an LGBT audience it would've been as easy as given Will a different love interest in Lenora and confirm him queer in that way. Why would they so meticulously and elaborately write a queer slowburn friends to lovers only to queerbait in the end?

I know some Milkvans are COUNTING on this, they are HOPING this is all queerbait because THEY SEE THE SIGNS as well, they're just refusing to accept it. Of course I fear they're right deep down, but do I actually think, if I go about this logically, that the Duffers would do something so ... anticlimactic? When they've described S5 as 'S1 and S4 on steroids'?

When it comes to the romances, Byler IS the big shock. The biggest surprise. Because whether Nancy chooses Steve or Jonathan or remains single, we know Nancy's options, we're just waiting to see who or what she chooses.

But most of the GA does not even see Byler as a real possibility. Hell, some of them haven't even picked up on Will liking Mike (yes, even after the painting, I've seen some people still debate this and some straight up thinking Will likes El).

And yet when you rewatch the show after considering Byler as a possibility, it becomes SO OBVIOUS. It is the perfect plot twist when it comes to Mike and Will. And I wouldn't be on board with Byler if Milkvan was written in a way that truly showed they loved each other, were compatible and thought of each other as an equal. As someone going into S4 as part of the GA, I was expecting that S4 would finally, FINALLY make me ship Milkvan because I am sorry but I picked up on that Born Sexy Yesterday bs since S1 and I did NOT like them romantically, not at that point. I wished they had been a slowburn friends to lovers that got together in like S3 or something, but even if they felt forced and rushed as fuck I was still willing to allow myself to be swayed into liking them later on. And that never happened, instead S4 presented Will as a potential love interest for Mike and I was SEATED. I was SO DONE with milkvan's drama.

When it comes to romance, it would be the dumbest writing decision I've ever seen in my life not to get Mike and Will together. And I know the Duffers might not be perfect but they cannot be THIS dumb when they grew up loving Dawson's Creek. There is no way that show did more for its gay character in 1998 than the Duffers potentially could in 2025 let's be for real.

[strawberrybyers]

every new interview i have seen of the stranger things cast or the duffers in the past month has something that is alluding to byler being canon. everyone can have whatever thoughts they want, but at this point i actually do believe everything we’ve been saying is true and if it ends up not being true, then i’ll have to deal with my own disappointment. but i have tbh i don’t think i will end up being disappointed.

there’s just something about the casts’ reactions to byler or will’s feelings while promoting s4 that seem too giddy. i’m sorry but there’s no way that any of these people would feel that way if will ends up sad and alone, especially with the van scene being very emotional and will expressing feelings that are very vulnerable that a lot of people can relate to. you really think they’d be giddy about a gay character expressing that he feels like a mistake and that the boy who he is in love with doesn’t make him feel like he’s different, only for that same boy to reject him? no way.

we also have finn and noah doing no promo together when all their scenes are TOGETHER. they have some very emotional scenes too. like wouldn’t it be reasonable to put these two cast mates together in an interview to talk about the airport scene, the rink o’mania scene, the “cool” “cool” scene, the “it’s hard to tell the truth” scene, the van scene, i mean ESPECIALLY the van scene. i’m thinking they aren’t really talking about it because if they do then that will require finn to answer as to why mike has been acting the way he has which will then give away that mike is repressed and has feelings for will. and if the duffers are writing this correctly, then they’re going to want s5 to be the season that gives the audience true insight into mike and how they’ve been building byler up from the beginning.

it’s been said that they filmed the van scene multiple times and wanted different angles of it. if you’re wanting a scene to be excellent and a pivotal moment in the storytelling then you’re going to want multiple versions of it. it’s noah’s moment. he’s the one talking. he’s the one having to act verbally and physically, whereas finn’s job was just to react physically. we’ve been analyzing his facial expressions in that scene and we all agree that something is definitely going through mike’s mind. they needed this scene to be executed a certain way, not only because it was an important emotional moment for will’s character, but because it’s also telling us something about mike’s character. just like they had to show jonathan’s pov through the rear-view mirror to lead to him and will’s convo at the pizza shop, they were showing specific reactions of mike to tell us something in that moment that is going to lead to byler in s5. the duffers are on a budget and a time schedule they’re not going to film scenes multiple times just for the hell of it.

when it comes to mike’s monologue to el, they let finn improvise. an actor improvising isn’t uncommon, but i do know from watching interviews of directors and casts, that when they want a scene to be telling something very specific that they usually rehearse it, stick to the script, and have multiple versions of it. yes, an actor can still improvise and it be used in the final cut, but only if it makes the scene even better and is still telling that very specific thing the director is wanting. i think if the duffers wanted this monologue to be the biggest development in mikeven’s relationship and tell the audience this is it. this is the couple that’s been through their trials and tribulations, but now it’s known they love each other and we’re not going to include anymore conflict that doubts their relationship, then it would’ve been given the same energy as the van scene. but it wasn’t. most people, regardless of what they ship, picked up on the fact that mike’s monologue seems off. if the duffers didn’t like what finn improvised because it was saying something other than what needed to be said in that moment about mikeven’s relationship, then they would’ve just used a cut of him sticking to the script or had him reshoot, but no they used finn’s improvised dialogue which had the audience questioning if mike really does love el. the season starts off with the audience not knowing why mike can’t tell el he loves her, but then we’re ending the season still unsure if he loves her? why is that? WELL, i think i know!

there’s just so much that goes into creating a tv show or film. we’ve seen the interviews of costume designers adding details that say something specifically about the character. we know set designers create the set to tell something about the storyline or if for example, it’s a character’s bedroom then they’re going to put details that tell something about the character. we know composers create the score by reading the script and viewing certain scenes. you aren’t only learning about a character through their dialogue. you are learning about them through their body language, their environment, their interactions with other characters, their clothes, and even the very technical things such as the lighting, coloring, angles, placements of the actors, the score…

also, we know the duffers went through multiple versions of the painting. i truly believe the painting played its role in s4, but will be coming back in s5 because mike is going to find out the truth about it and that will begin his journey of self-acceptance and fully coming to terms with the fact that he loves will. if the painting wasn’t important, then why waste an artist’s time by having them create multiple versions of it when will could’ve said what he said without it? i honestly don’t think the painting was necessary in the van scene if we aren’t getting byler, but if we’re getting byler, then hell yeah that painting is super important!

i’m just saying this show has a script, directors, directors directing the actors using the script, gets edited by editors, gets the edit reviewed by the directors and producers before deciding on a final cut. if theres’s all these details we’ve noticed, which i’m not going to list because there’s too many, but if we noticed them then just think about how all of that was included and agreed on by multiple people while filming the show and editing it into a final cut. you think all these people revising stranger things before releasing it are looking at mike and will’s scenes not seeing what we’re seeing? no freaking way. everything is there and shown the way it is because byler is canon in s5. i’m sure of it.

[positivelybyler]

so i've been seeing ppl talking about finn wolfhard "love songs" playlist on spotify and how he made it for byler. (he also made a playlist for his character richie so making this wouldn't be out of the blue for him).

i honestly thought it was a stretch at first but after further analysis... it's too perfect to not relate to byler (unless finn wolfhard has a love triangle situation going on himself).

anyways here's my analysis of each song on the playlist! (i'll only be talking about 6/7 because one of the songs is in an east asian language that i do not understand!!)

1. Boys Don't Cry - The Cure

so the first song on the playlist is boys don't cry which has been talked about and analysed multiple times because we see a poster of the song in wills bedroom. and although people say that it's will song, i believe that it relates to mike more! especially in the lyrics:

I would say I'm sorry if I thought that it would change your mind.

But I know that this time I have said too much, been too unkind.

we all know that mike wheeler says stuff he doesn't mean to (evident in the s3+4 byler fight) and he has a hard time apologizing. not only that but we don't really see mike getting emotional! will isn't afraid to cry but mike is. anyways this song has been analyzed lots already so moving on to #2

2. Let Her Go - Mac Demarco

i'm not gonna lie, when i first saw this song i was shocked to the very core because of how much it realtes to the mikewillel love triangle. the first lyrics being:

Tell her that you love her, if you really love her.

But if your heart just ain't sure, let her know.

obviously mike can't tell her that he loves her because he doesn't even know if he truly loves eleven or not. (and when mike did end up telling eleven that he loves her, there is obvious hesitation coming from mike and even el didn't believe him).

Growing by the hour, love just like a flower.

But when the flower dies, you've got to say goodbye and let her go.

hello???? literally the flowers that mike got her in ep2 and then we see the same flowers dead in the last episode. (not to mention this is when el hasn't talked to mike much in a couple days and their relationship is rocky). so is mike finally going to let el go?

3. Lovesong - The Cure

ok this song is absolutely adorable just look at the lyrics:

Whenever I'm alone with you, you make me feel like I am home again.

Whenever I'm alone with you, you make me feel like I am whole again.

Whenever I'm alone with you, you make me feel like I am young again.

Whenever I'm alone with you, you make me feel like I am fun again.

at the beginning of season 4, we see mike being closed off and definitely not like himself. he was a shitty friend to will at the airport and rink-o-mania because el was by his side. but once el had to leave to regain her powers, we started seeing more of the old mike as he spent time alone with will. i assume that will makes mike feel like he's home again even though they're in a completely different state and he makes him feel young again just how they were in season 2 (especially with the crazy together parallel in ep9).

However far away, I will always love you.

However long I stay, I will always love you.

i mean, come on even when they were in different states, they still loved each other! sure things were rocky the first few days mike came to california but then they went right back to being inspeperable!

4. Africa - Toto

this song has been used before in stranger things specifically in season 1 episode 1 in a stancy scene. and although there are multiple meanings behind this song, the more accurate one to our situation is "This song tells the story of a man who comes to Africa and must make a decision about the girl who comes to see him." in this case, mike comes to california and has to make a decision about el.

Hurry boy, she's waiting there for you.

It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you.

we all know that el is infatuated with mike and is the first to meet him at the airport and she has clearly been waiting for spring break in order to see him again. as for the second line, mike and el are obviously bonded by trauma which makes it so difficult for the pair to break up. mike will have to go through a lot in order to end things with el in order to be with will.

I seek to cure what's deep inside, frightened of this thing that I've become.

we all know that mike has internal struggles and lashes out at people (especially will) when he didn't mean to.

Gonna take some time to do the things we never had.

and when they both find out that their love is requited, then what!!

5. Inbetween Days - The Cure

this song is about having to choose between two people, and feeling guilty because you don't know which one to choose! basically a love triangle.

And I know I was wrong, when I said it was true.

That it couldn't be me and be her in between without you.

those lyrics are basically this image. i really like this random person's interpretation of the song cause its so accurate: "it's the story of a guy being in now stagnant relationship with a girl but pining for someone from the past that he parted ways with, now he's realizing that the current relationship couldn't work without this someone always getting in the way." it perfectly describes their love triangle.

i also want to add how the singer is talking about apologizing for saying the wrong thing to his current girlfriend (which is very mike wheeler core) but based on what we saw in the last episode, el isn't taking any of mikes shit! (good for her).

6. Lost Weekend - The So So Glos

ok so i actually love this song, i have it in my playlist lol and i never realized how much it applied to byler!! this song is generally about youth and growing up with someone.

You and I, riding high, in a landfill building castles.

castle byers, obviously and i'd like to think that mike and will spent a lot of time in their youth there together!

And we can't speak, cause we're in too deep.

We've grown up eighty-sixed and ended up like this.

clearly mike and will aren't willing to confess their love for each other (and this is sort of on the nose) because they're so deeply in love with one another. also, eighty-sixed is slang for being thrown out or discarded which could relate to mike and will being heavily bullied when they were younger (which is canon). and then they went to each other for comfort and continue to go to each other to this day.

anyways that's all of the analysis i have in me! even if this isn't true, it was still fun to look at the lyrics of these songs and try to figure out how they relate to byler lol (and if it is true then finn wolfhard is one bold man).

[kaypeace21]

In light of the disappoitment that was s4 vol 2, I just wanted to thank you for all the effort you put into analysing stranger things and showing us an amazing story that I honestly would've much rather have seen. I dropped the show after s3 because it seemed like a different show to me and only picked it up again after reading your theories and for a moment, after vol 1, with all the stuff both the actors and the duffers were saying, I thought we were going to get that story, with el developing, will showing his importance as a character, the message regarding trauma, a young queer romance (byler) in the 80's, everything. But I was terribly wrong and superestimated the duffers as writers.

Regardless of all that, your theories made an incredible plot and helped me enjoy my rewatch of the show a lot more, noticing all the stuff you had pointed out and forming theories of my own for the characters and the plot. All in all, you could've written stranger things (and have made it way better too!), but the duffers could never write the plot you constructed.

I don't mean to put you on a pedestal, that wouldn't be fair, but I admire you and wanted to express that. I'll try to have a small bit of hope for s5, but, in case it lets me down again, I wanted to say I would've loved to see this story and it's sad that it didn't happen (well I guess ao3 is there for a reason, the fix it fics will consume all my time lmao).

Sorry for making this so long, hope you're having a great day/night <3

Wow! That's so sweet. Thank you- I really appreciate the kind words🥺💛💛

Yeah, I'm holding out some hope for s5. But my bar has been put quite low, so I'm not dissapointed again. Even though some aspects of the writing were good (other aspects were not). I'll probably watch s5 to just have closure. And if it's worth it - I'll analyze the last season.

Lol - maybe I really should write a novel XD

[pholiabanna]

what's on your s5 wishlist? the silly, goofy things!!!

I'M SO SORRY FOR ANSWERING THIS SO LATE finals were killing me and I wanted to wait and write a good answer to this.

First of all I'm really excited for the 4 og boys to be together again, because we haven't had one full season of them being in the same storyline yet, which I think is criminal. I really think putting them back together will bring back the season 1 feel that made everyone love this show, and I can't wait!

I'm also so excited about learning more about the upside down. The ships and characters are awesome to analyze, but I love the supernatural part and knowing that we're gonna learn what the Upside Down actually is, and why it's stuck on the day Will went missing, among other things, makes me impatient because I need to know rn.

Now I know those weren't really goofy things but I needed to put them because they are a must for me. Moving on to the silly things:

If the season takes place in 1987, the Duffers have the chance to do the funniest thing ever and include a rickroll in a creative way. C'mon, it has to happen

A lot of people are advocating for byler to get murray'd, Erica's or Jonathan'd, but I actually want them to get Argyle'd. I imagine a scene going like: Mike and Will talk about El and Mike's breakup and the camera switches to Argyle smoking a joint in the background, while he says "Whoa Wheeler you were dating supergirl? And I was here thinking you were with mini Byers this whole time, dude, that's not cool man, that's so not cool!"

I need more Erica and Lucas sibling bickering moments, they're the best

I know this won't happen, but imagine Mike's sexuality is revealed through a conversation about movies where he reveals he finds Fast Times boring af and he "doesn't understand the appeal every man sees in that movie". I mean, at this point Fast Times has become the Duffer's favorite sexuality metaphor

I know Max probably won't wake up early on, but I'd kill to get more Elmax scenes where they just bond like normal teenage girls again. Max already taught El how to stand up for herself and how to know what she actually likes, but I think it'd be so cool to see her find out what her hobbies are. I'd love to see a scene where Max just teaches El how to skate, and El keeps trying to cheat with her powers but Max tells her that's not fair.

I need Lucas and Max to go on that movie date as well, I don't care if it's impractical

Also even though I don't really care about Dustin/Suzie because they aren't a very focused on relationship, I think it'd be cute if there was a scene where they reunite in person

More Joyce, Jonathan and Will scenes together please!!!

They need to go around town riding bikes again, bring back the whole s1 vibe

Please let us see Mr. Clarke's pov, mans probably so confused every time he helped his students the town was destroyed. Also, they can't win without him and that's a fact

Troy has to show up again, only so that they beat him up and this time El breaks his leg

Alternatively, Lonnie comes back and Jonathan beats him up (with the help of Will maybe)

Nancy notices Jonathan's tendency to interrupt byler moments and puts a leash on him

I need a new iconic song tied to another iconic scene I can obsess over. Something that can top even the Running up that hill scene

Someone needs to acknowledge the fact that they are straight up calling 001 Vecna as in one of the Dnd characters, when actually he's just some guy named Henry who would probably be so confused as to why they're calling him Vecna

These are all I could come up with but I'm sure deep in my mind there's many more things I wish for and if the Duffers deliver even one of them I'll be satisfied!

[maddy-ferguson]

can u expand on the byler vol2 problems

i said ask me to expand and i will and you delivered thank you for that!!! i didn't say byler vol2 problems though i said byler fandom problems post-volume 2!

i think the main thing is overcorrection. i said every major problem but i only meant the things i think of as byler tumblr trends that annoy me personally. tbh🙏 it's subjective. kind of.

i've been rereading posts from after volume 2 recently and yeah it's the "will only ever gets to be sad" to "will deserves a villain arc" kind of pipelines that you saw after volume 2 that i think are still very much happening i'm gonna talk about even though the will villain arc one died down pretty quickly. on this side of the internet anyway. some of these actually aren't volume 2 related sorry i lied i was mostly thinking about the mike stuff when i said that.

mike says i love you to el: everything always ends up being about mike somehow. i think this is the biggest one. people like the mystery and the way mike's sexuality isn't confirmed like will's is and so they analyze him more which leads to people literally rewriting history with takes like mike is more queercoded than will?😭 i get that everyone knows will is gay now but the mike focus has people thinking that will has no subtext when literally his entire storyline is full of the saddest subtext ever!!! but it's not subtext that you can choose to only read as "this boy is gay" so it's not as fun i guess😔 and it really isn't as fun. because it's mostly heartbreaking and awful lmao but yeah. just wanted to give a thumbs down to the mike is more queercoded than will take again.

mlvns say will is a whiny crybaby, bylers say going through what he's had to go through would make anyone cry just as often so will isn't even that sensitive even though he is it's literally one of the first things we learn about him lol. people imply that being sensitive is bad so often and act like will has sensitive gay kid allegations to beat when he literally doesn't like he is a sensitive gay kid😭 why do you think that's bad exactly...🎤

mike says i love you to el: 90% of people think they read everything wrong for 72-96 hours and then everyone's like oh no i get it now. byler's still endgame. overuse of the term media literacy and everyone who doesn't think or simply doesn't believe that the duffers would make byler endgame is stupid and has no media literacy. which actually comes off as very INSECURE!!!! and is frankly annoying. and obnoxious. the term media literacy needs to be taken away from byler tumblr i'm so serious.

will is not a baby just because he's gay look at these two scenes he's actually so mean and most importantly not sensitive (and then he's not even mean in the scene) and he can load a gun could a sensitive baby do that (and then he's literally 12 in the scene so like. i'm sorry but that's a baby to me😕). how dare you imply that he's sensitive, gay, and a kid. i'm kidding about the gay one because no one in this day and age is defending will by saying he's not gay but some of them might as well be because it's the qualities that made people assume he's gay that people try to say he doesn't have. the how dare you infantilize him he can load a gun one is just nonsensical because regardless of how you feel about will with a gun you're definitely meant to be like oh no this poor little kid has to defend himself all alone :( in the moment like him being a kid isn't a bad thing (??/!??,/) it makes you feel for him and is part of what makes what happens to him so awful.

mlvns accuse bylers of hating el and of being raging misogynists: elmike is born. bylers start saying that el will actually be thrilled by the match and might actually set up the guy she spent the first two and a half years of her life out of the lab fixated on who's been her boyfriend for over a year and her newfound brother. because she's so mature and over the petty drama that's a teenage love triangle. which is crazy because i DON'T believe that most bylers are as misogynistic as mlvns make us out to be like i've seen way worse which might be because...the show is actually pointing to mike being gay so it's not made up and no one needs to give el a thousand flaws to justify anything? even though people do blame her for things that i don't know if she should be blamed for but whatever that's a different discussion. i was saying: it's crazy because while i don't think bylers are all awful misogynistic el haters...the girl being so happy and out of the way and not being given the space to feel anything about her (gay) boyfriend not being in love with her is sooo new age 2010s mlm fandom sexism. let el have emotions about her breakup with her gay boyfriend who was the first person she bonded with (who didn't die immediately) after escaping the lab who lied to her about falling in love with her at first sight 2k25‼️

everything about babygirl mike and buff byers? let's not get into the whole buff byers debate i hate it with a passion. but it's like. people want mike to be taken down a peg. mike says i love you to el with will's sad little face in the background and people want mike to have to beg for forgiveness. which i get because as i was saying the other day, "i feel like my life started 24 hours after you were taken to the upside down and were traumatized forever because i met this girl who's replaced you in every way that matters, will" is hard to get over. but idk. people are so weird about mike being lame and loving will and about will barely caring about him in return and about the loserification of mike wheeler because yes mike is a loser but only in the sense that the whole party is!!! and that's something that gets lost when he's made to be below them and below will specifically because people feel like he has all the power in the relationship right now and will's at his mercy. which is something they don't like. like it's okay they're both miserable actually. rejoice! post-volume 2 mike needs to have fallen first and he needs to have fallen harder because if the only thing will gets at the end of everything is a boyfriend who loves him only as much as will loves him it's not good enough even though that's all he's not letting himself hope he'll ever have.

[tal-vez-o-quizas]

How I became a Byler

It wasn't fate, it wasn't destiny, it was just simple dumb luck! 😜 

Get some water guys, this is long.

When Stranger Things first came out in 2016, my older brother was the only one who had a Netflix subscription at the time (I have one since 2 years ago) and I remember he said to my whole family (except my Dad who usually gets home late for work) that we had to watch this show that was super popular with Wynona Ryder, and that everyone loves it.

Now, of course we all knew who Wynona was! Even my Mom, who never remembers the name of actors or singers recognized her, lol. So we were like "Yeah, let's watch it!"

And we were all so impressed and flabbergasted by the show. My mom loved the cast and her favorite kid is Dustin cause she said he looked like such a naughty kid, haha. I absolutely loved it as well and I wanted to know more about Will, who seemed like such a lovely boy.

After that, I watched each season everytime it was released but I was not a hardcore fan at all. I didn't ship anybody, didn't analyze things, I just purely enjoyed it, found it very entertaining and thought that it was very well done.

When S3 came out and EP3 happened with the rain fight, I was like "Oh, are they gonna-? Nah, I don't think so... Will they? OMG" with displaying Will's sexuality. At the time it didn't occur to me that Will was struggling with his friend's exclusion and his sexuality at the same time (I know, dumb me). So I was like "I mean, he could be a late bloomer, I didn't get interested in boys until I was like 14" but now that I'm recalling middle school, I had crushes on different guys, lol. My mind was in denial because I just thought that Will being gay wouldn't be shown properly or in a sensible and serious way.

Then, when that first ST4 teaser ("With love, from Russia") dropped with Hopper in the snow, everyone and their mothers freaked out and the worldwide Stranger Things frenzy began all over again. I also remember that I saw some news online that said that ALL productions were suspended for Covid and that included ST or course. Me and my brothers were kinda mad because everyone knew ST was gonna be released like in 2 years or something, waaay later than it was supposed to.

Then, like a month and so before Volume 1 premiered, I don't recall how, but I watched the rest of the ST4 teasers (002, 003 and 004 with the Hawkings gang, the Hawkins Lab and the Cali one) and I got so excited! I started to watch a lot of the cast press interviews, videos and content, then I rewatched ST again, and was so surprised to realize, all over again, that it's such a great show and the cast is amazing. But my Byler senses were still dormant. The idea of Mike and Will romantically never crossed my mind (again, sorry for my ignorance).

Which is weird because I'm good at clocking queer characters.

Like, back in college, we had to watch a movie about this family who pretended to be someone else everytime they moved; they were imposters in a way. Thanks to the camera angles, the fact that he seemed uninterested in any girls and micro-expressions from the actor, I said to this girl next to me in class "He's gay" regarding the son in the family, and she was like "What? How do you know?" and I just told her to keep watching. Indeed, towards the middle of the movie, the guy (the son in the family, who was a teenager) went to this party; he started talking with this guy and they got in a car I think? Or was it outside the house the party was at? Can't recall. Anyways, the guy got closer to his school colleague and tried to kiss him, but the other guy flinched and said "I'm sorry, I don't feel that way" or something like that, he left, and the girl next to me was like "You were right!"

I've always been very open-minded, but I think I was used to watch media where queer characters where displayed as queer or in love with their friends in their late teens, so Byler was not something I ever considered.

After rewatching all the seasons, ST4 Vol 1 premiered on May 27th and boy, was I excited! Before that, I watched the first trailer, Sadie on Fallon, Millie on Fallon, the cast interviews on the ST4 premiere days ago and I knew that they were going to move forward with Will being in love with Mike thanks to that cut on the trailer when Mike and El are skating and Will stares at their hands. So I was like "Oh, what are they gonna do with Will?"

I was free from work on that Friday (it was not planned at all and I did absolutely nothing on that day, woohoo!). I started watching ST4 around 10AM in the morning in my living's room TV.

Now, I was incredibly hooked since the intro (I knew right away that El didn't murder those kids because the way their bones and limbs were broken didn't align with how El has attacked people before), got very interested after El said that Will was painting a lot and that maybe it was for a girl, clocked what was gonna happen later in the season with the basketball game and Eddie's campaign (Mike saying that they thought Vecna was killed by Kas, Eddie declaring that Vecna lives, the 11 that Dustin threw and it wasn't enough to win) as well as who actually massacred those kids in the Lab back in 1979 after Chrissy was taken by Vecna.

I found Mike so weird and odd in EP2 but I didn't know what it was; his outfit was horrendous and after EP3, I said to myself "Hold on, Will is in love with Mike in the same season when Mike can't say I love you to El's face? That's no coincidence" and kept on watching.

I knew Peter was Vecna immediately since he appeared on EP5 because there was not another new character that fit the vibe but I didn't know he was Henry Creel or 001, lol. Him being 001 was there for us to notice but I didn't, for some reason, haha.

I stopped watching on EP5 I think, in the afternoon. Did some stuff and then picked it up at 9PM.

After the master reveal and plot in EP7, I went to Twitter and started to check people's opinions or takes for this season, then I saw a tweet that linked Kaypeace21's "Why I no longer think Mike is bi, but gay" post, saying that Will loved Mike and Mike reciprocated, and I was like "WHATT?! OMG! This looks promising" and read the whole thing.

When I tell you that I felt like I had an epiphany it's downplaying things (not an exaggeration). It felt exactly the same as when I watched Maze Runner's "The Death Cure" on theaters and Newt threw Thomas against the wall in the middle of the film after screaming at him and I felt such an insurmountable amount of tension between those two characters that I started to read Newtmas fanfiction when I got home.

Everything on Kaypeace21's post seemed very well thought, it made sense and after that I read more Byler theories as well as overall theories for the supernatural, Vecna and more. I got obsessed, became a proper fan of the show and the characters, and waited for Vol 2 to drop. Stranger Things actually replaced my Heartstopper fixation.

The show was more popular than ever, the hype was so real. Even my brothers, who haven't still watched Season 4, said that they read that The Duffers "forgot" Will's birthday and I was like "yeah, I don't really believe them" because I actually do not believe anything that comes out of The Duffers or Shawn Levy's mouths until I see it with my own eyes, lol.

Anyways, when Vol 2 premiered, I woke up at 4AM on July 1st, I think, to watch it and when we got to Will saying "Can I show you something?" to Mike, I actually paused my laptop, took a deep breath and started pacing in my room, haha. I was like "Sh*t, so early on the episode?" because I felt I was gonna have a heart attack. I was flabbergasted, shocked and a bit sad after the van scene, but found it so beautifully heartbreaking.

Now, I'm very objective and being the Libra that I am (not that I believe that much in Astrology, but there is a degree of certainty to it), I always see all sides of things and I do not consume media in a subjective way only. When Mike "confessed" to El on Surfer's Boy Pizza, I stood very quiet and watched the whole thing, but felt nothing, because it came across as very clichéd, lies were spouted by Mike and the whole situation happened in the middle of Max getting killed by Vecna and everyone was at the brink of death. It felt like an empty moment.

Then, towards the end of Vol 2, I was like "Well, Mike and Will seemed closer than ever at least".

I checked Tumblr and everyone was losing their minds. Me as well, but in a more subdued way. Then, the Byler hope was restored pretty much like Aang restored peace in Book 3 of The Last Airbender, I saved so many Byler blogs on my browser, visited them everyday, liked all their posts, learned more and more about the show, read even more theories about many things and a few weeks ago created a Tumblr specifically to indulge on my Byler hyper-fixation and here I am.

Byler Tumblr has made me more aware of symbolisms, plot devices and how to digest media more acutely. Thank you guys so so much.

Love that for me!

[justablogger234]

Hey!! Byler shippper here and I just want to know why you believe mileven will be endgame?

I don't believe they will be endgame. THEY ARE ENDGAME. Mileven has been set in stone since day 1. Mileven is a rare ship and they are genuine and sincere. Traumatized girl meets nerdy insecure boy. I mean why do you guys want to take els happiness away? Hasn't the girl suffered enough? Mike told el he loves her. Him lying would be a really poor decision on his part but of course that's ok for you guys because as long as he loves will right? I've said if before, byler is only about will liking mike. Ok. Byler wasn't even as crazy an idea until it was revealed that will liked mike. Mileven is about mike and eleven loving each other we have a whole show, not to mention interviews as confirmation. We don't need 2000 word essays like you guys just to prove a point. Answer me this. If you guys are so sure that byler is endgame, then why do you feel the need to analyze every single detail and try to bring mileven down? Why so nervous about the next season? Cause you guys know that mileven is endgame and don't want to admit it. Look. The bottom line is. I hate byler, it doesn't make sense, and for me byler is a HUGE disrespect to El, and mileven is Canon so it can't get any better than that, pathetic attempts at proving a one sided ship is quite delusional. Plus I generally only really enjoy straight ships so there's that. Byler is never happening, I'm not sorry at all, and i much prefer staying in my very sane line of the aisle which is mileven. But, respectfully have a nice day/night.

[emblazons]

just me ranting about anon hate. skip if you want lol

pls not me getting my first round of anon hate about it being sad I'm a "90s kid" into boys kissing because I pay attention like what they're doing re:byler (probably because of my last several posts)? I blocked them, but...I'm annoyed over being called the same as "teenage boys into watching lesbian p*rn" for being analytical lmao.

Like? I am probably one of the few bylers on this app who cares the almost nothing about the logistics of "the byler kiss" or the nitty gritty specifics of how they get together (sorry lmao). I spend almost all my time here analyzing narrative and themes, generally across Mike and Will, yes—but also with El, Nancy, Jonathan, Steve and occasionally Henry/001/Vecna and the Wheelers/Byers in general.

—if you're mad I'm pointing out anti-mlvn subtext (and really just text) while saying "see, the romantic reading of what's happening between Mike and Will makes sense on both sides, not just one..." that's a you problem ☠️ I'm so far past "ship wars" at this point, like. Enjoy mlvn if you want to in fanon, or even in canon if that floats your boat??? I am just a random tumblr user who has loved the show outside of any ship since '16 minding my own business on my blog lol

I didn't even vote in your little reddit poll when they got rid of your mid ass ship first round?? I did laugh though. I'll admit to that

[willandmichael]

as someone who is majoring in english it hurts so bad to see people disregard any kind of media analysis or say that the hints and subtext you find in st "doesn't mean anything and you're looking too much into it." sorry but after taking at least 6 literature courses and having to write god knows how many essays analyzing short stories, movies, poems and books i beg to fucking differ. if you wanna consume media mindlessly by all means feel free to do so but don't try to act like it's not an actual field of study and that writers put a lot of thought into what they create.

and in visual media like film or tv, every single shot/scene has a purpose and has the potential to be analyzed and interpreted in a different way by different people, and st is famously known for having intentionally hidden information and easter eggs in the background for fans to find. it's frustrating cause of course it's queer people being the butt of the joke and not being taken seriously, of course it's the relationship between two boys that is seen as a reach (even when one of them is canonically in love).

i know a lot of you are traumatized by queerbaiting, but leave people alone for god's sake. you might not like byler or feel like you're too good for media analysis but making it seem like it doesn't matter at all or that it's pointless, to me, just shows you have no media literacy and can't see past the surface level

[buck-yyyy]

(sorta?) hot take we should stop being shitty to m!levens and calling them dumb behind their backs because in the end its literally just fictional characters and even if they did it first just hit the block button (its not that hard). 'but they started it-' block them. 'but theyre being ignorant-' its not your job to educate them. block them. literally just stop being an asshole. who cares what they ship. as long as its not some weird adult/minor thing or whatever just let them be. there are real people behind those screens.

my apologies for taking so long to get to this T-T

YES YES YES FUCKING SAY IT

i'm so sick of the blatant bullying from bylers towards milkvans. they are minding their own business on their tag, posting their thoughts and enjoying the characters, and yet there's still so many of us who feel entitled to shit all over them and the things that they like and think, the exact thing that we complain about constantly.

i fucking hate how this tag seems to believe that shipping byler makes you exempt from being a bully. it feels like SHIT to have someone make fun of you behind your back- believe me, i goddamn know! so many of us know! and yet it's still such an issue? LEAVE THEM ALONE! let them make fanart, and write fic, and have headcanons and a deep love for these characters and their ship, because it does not goddamn affect us. it doesn't.

this tag has a serious problem with perpetuating the idea that anyone not picking up on or disagreeing with or even just simply disliking byler makes them stupid or media illiterate, which is NOT TRUE!!! milkvans aren't stupid, the general audience isn't stupid, and we aren't better than ANYONE for looking so deep into this show and finding subtext to analyze that brought us to the conclusion that byler will/should be canon.

maybe they disagree with the way the evidence is presented. maybe they think it means something else. maybe they simply don't want to look deeper into the show- WHO CARES! we all need to stop pretending that the term 'media literacy' hasn't been turned into a weapon that we use against anyone who disagrees with us or doesn't care enough about the show to think about it deeper than a surface level. that's not what media literacy means, but it's been twisted into something it's not, just like with fucking tiktok and 'gaslight' or 'normalize'.

agh. i'm sorry for turning this into a rant, but it makes me SO mad that people can't leave milkvans alone to enjoy their ship and their characters. shipping wars are dumb. have your own thoughts and opinions and talk about them, but don't point and laugh at the people who drastically disagree- because you don't come off looking good, you come off looking like a total twat who can't accept different interpretations of a television show.

anyways. milkvans i love you dearly i hope you're having fun with mike and el and i'm sorry for anyone who makes you feel bad for enjoying them, mwah mwah

[wheeler-fan]

Hello! I'm a byler fan, but I decided to write to you because I have the same feelings about endgame. To be honest, I feel like I'm gaslighting myself and it's terrible because I've been really obsessed with the byler for 8 years and I'm really scared. I really like your analysis, I especially liked the one about El and Mike's different love languages, it makes sense to me now! But what I really care about is if the byler isn't going to be endgame, then why is Will all this suffering? For what? He literally hasn't been happy in any season and he ends up growing as a character in season 5 and letting Mike go? To me this feels terribly unfair. To go through so many trials that you wouldn’t end up with the one you love. This is more of a question, of course, to the Duffers, why make a child suffer so much, he definitely didn’t deserve it, but (I don’t remember who exactly said this, sorry) but one user wrote that before each season byler fans write about will happen and byler become canon, aaaand.. this is not happening! I feel that in the fifth it will be the same and it hurts a lot. In any case, thank you for your respect and interesting analyzes! By the way, regarding the brothers statement about the fact that «they will no longer follow the lead of the fans», many Mileven fans think that this is just about the byler, but it seems to me that this is more like a triangle between Steven Nancy and Jonathan, because byler fans received nothing for all seasons (except for the second, but at that time the fandom was not as influential as it is now). Sorry in advance for any mistakes, English is not my native language

hey, thanks for a question and for reading my analysis‼️i love to talk to byler fans about theories and different views for the same scenes so it's a pleasure to answer your question!!

First of all, and i think you're going to agree with me on this one, Will is a really important character for the whole plot, and not only as a member of the party but as a boy connected to the other dimension. We can see that in the first two seasons he's the main focus, in s3 we can see him as a sad teenager who wants to go back to his childhood but for this he needs his friends and the problem is that they're not interested because they're trying to move on and start a normal life. We had this in the s3 plot- that Will gave up his childhood and tried to move on like the others too, he even gave his d&d to Erica and then moved on to Lenora. But in s4 we can see that this did not exactly work, bc he's emotionally attached to mike and can't move on- he needs to talk to him about his feelings (and here we have two options-byler fans thinks that mike feels the same and he's gonna be with will, mileven fans thinks that mike is gonna reject will and it will helps in his character development) In s4 Will is not even connected to the upside down bc he's not in hawkins anymore so literally the whole point about him this season was being in love with his best friend and for what?? i bet that duffer brothers did that on purpose to help this character, but i think it's way more than just make him happy while being in relationship with mike, i feel that Will needs to be cut off- from the upside down and from the party for good- and ofc not in a bad way!! I'm not saying that he has to give up all his friends, no. But he needs to be more independent, not always in someone's shadow, doing what someone tells him too, like what someone wants him to (Jonathan talked to Will about it in s1) What i really need for this character is to find happiness in himself (he thinks that he's a mistake, and i don't think that being in a relationship will help him with that because literally this love for mike make him feel this way about himself)

personally i don't think that relationship is something this character needs right now- first he needs to love himself and feel good about who he is. I feel like the duffer brothers are planning something bigger for him and just because he's not going to end up in a relationship doesn't mean that he's not going to have a happy ending!

also a lot of people are saying "if you think that Will doesn't need a relationship then why do you think that mike needs it? why don't u want him to be independent too?" Well it's a good question, but from my point of view- Will is in love with someone he can't be with, and he's hating himself for that. That's why I want him to move on and finally be independent. On the other hand we have Mike and El- they both love each other since s1, the point is that mike thought El is way happier without him and doesn't need him anymore bc she was telling him how amazing life she has in Lenora, so he thought she's going to leave him soon, and if he would show her that he REALLY LOVES HER and wants something real then it would make her leave faster and it would hurt him even more, he kinda separated himself and that was the reason why eleven though that he doesn't love her- That was the whole misunderstanding that they had this season, and yea they can be independent, but i can see how they love each other and how they want to have a happy relationship without fear, and i really hope duffer brothers are going to give it to them.

I hope this answer makes any sense to u 😭