#shaido

[iliiuan]

The Shaido plotline gets a lot of flak, but I started thinking what the alternates would be. First, let's realize the setting:

Perrin is in Murandy/Amadicia with his odd assembly of armies. The Shaido are roaming around thanks to Sammael. The Seanchan are in Amadicia, pushing East and gathering forces for the assault on the White Tower. Galad's Whitecloak army is marching to Tarmon Gai'don. Masema is wreaking havoc with his (seriously misnamed) Dragonsworn.

Given all of this, an encounter with the Shaido was inevitable, perhaps especially when the ta'veren was off to visit Masema. (Now that I'm thinking about it, that actually justifies the timing.) So, what are the possible encounters and their likely outcomes?

A small group of Shaido comes across Perrin's army camps, leading to the death and capture of many, plus the dispersal of the rest.

A small group of Shaido comes across a small group of Perrin's allies, leading to their capture. (This is what happens in-story.)

A large group of Shaido comes across Perrin's army camps, leading to the capture or death of everyone.

A large group of Shaido comes across a small group of Perrin's allies, which triggers a scouting party who find the rest and now we have #1 with extra steps.

Perrin's scouts find evidence of Shaido and everyone goes into Very Careful Mode.

Some scenarios that wouldn't happen include Perrin's armies kicking Shaido ass on first encounter and the Shaido ignoring Perrin's group.

Now, Faile's capture forms the basis for both Perrin's and her character growth arcs. She transitions from being a spoiled brat runaway princess into an actual leader. Perrin finally grows into a leader of his people, accepting his role and filling his duties.

I understand where people are coming from when they criticize the plotline for placing Faile as a damsel in distress. If we look at it a different way, however, Faile is a prisoner of war. All of the things she endures are things that POWs endure. They are helpless, but we don't read their stories and think, wow, let's be angry because this strong character is helpless. Rather, we think, wow, that situation was shit. And yes, male POWs also have to deal with sexual harassment and rape.

Another aspect of the story as told involves Perrin making poor choices and over focusing on Faile's rescue. It's not just because she's his wife; she's the only family he has left. Even as he rescues her, he watches her take charge of the other prisoners and revels in her competence. Yes, someone had to rescue her, because that's the nature of being a POW, but it didn't rob her of awesome.

[brutalhonesttruths]

The worst part abt Ilia getting the pcs he gets is that its unecessary. He would win on BV+GOE+consistency and has clearly been working on components but now instead of appreciating the good things we gotta react to his score as if he skates like grassl

[justnotkrikkit]

"the cup of china men's short went really well" chat do we all remember nhk

[rondocapri]

There’s no way in fucking hell im watching pairs it’s at 3 in the mornin

[birgittesilverbae]

tdr ch 39

loc ch 26

Dailin ends up on Rand's list despite having died before any of the Aiel ever met Rand -> Aviendha told him about her cousin dying in the search for him

[staledirt87]

I'm loving Mat and Rand's random battle and political knowledge from ages ago. Give me more

[iliiuan]

People: The Seanchan are evil slavers and I hate them.

Also People: The Shaido are just Confused.

Cannoli: No, assholes. The Shaido are also evil slavers. In fact, they're worse than the Seanchan. Get your heads out of your asses.

Me: What cannoli said. And also Mat didn't "lose his morals" by marrying Tuon. He is actively working towards freeing damane THE ENTIRE CIRCUS ARC. He is thinking DURING THE LAST BATTLE about how he might engage Tuon effectively to convince her to stop the damane program. But sure. Let's paint him as complicit in slavery. That totally makes sense.

Wait! Which man is Seanchan royalty?

[toastandjamie]

Things about the band of the red hand that I think about on the daily:

-all the nobles in the Band competing to be Mat’s Favorite Noble(the answer is Talmanes but no one tell them that)

-after the battle of Cairihan, Talmanes and Nalesian putting aside their differences to defend Mat’s honor from the perceived slight of him not getting a parade

-Talmanes clearly knowing Mat is trying to ditch them and proceeding to insist on going with Mat literally everywhere until Mat gave up

-every noble in the band preening over being on Mat’s short list of “tolerable nobles” they are very proud of this fact and will brag about the fact that Mat willingly interacts with them

-Mat, half delirious from pain, teaching the band Jak’o’shadows and immediately regretting it as the band begins to sing it at every given opportunity and adds an entirely new verse dedicated to him

-while Mat was stuck in Ebou Dar every member of the band that was not with him simultaneously feeling the Ta’veren pull like a Spiderman esque sixth sense for knowing their general is in trouble

-upon feeling the Ta’veren pull, Talmanes immediately guilting Egwene into telling him where Mat is

-the band collectively deciding that their Olver’s cool uncles and teaching him to gamble, flirt with women, use weapons, and steal horses. You know, like responsible adults.

-when Mat is at the tower of genji, Talmanes being left in charge of Olver like the worlds most reluctant babysitter

-after seeing Mat refuse Aes Sedai healing every single member of the band deciding that they to would heal the old fashioned way

-a large portion of the band going out and getting tattoos together after they officially became the Band of The Red Hand

-Mat making one off hand mention of the original Band of the Red Hand from Manethran and the Band deciding that that was now the name of their mercenary band despite Mat’s protests

-the band deciding that No, they will not serve the Dragon Reborn, instead they’ll enlist into the service of the guy who Does Not Want Them

-the band deciding that Mat was a lord on principle because he’s just that good at fighting battles

-not a single member of the band was ever revealed to be a dark friend, they all just genuinely wanted to follow Mat with no ulterior motives

-every member of the band being willing to die for Mat at any given moment

-when Mat initially showed up to warn the army that they were walking into a Shaido ambush, Talmanes calling Mat’s bluff and getting him to begrudgingly agree to leading a portion of the army

-Mat effectively death glaring the bands nobles into a meritocracy

[markantonys]

Thoughts on the poster cause I am shaking! Spears! Dragon tattoos maybe? Rand carrying Moiraine so gently (that's his mom!) rather than Lan. Much to think about

perfect timing, i was just typing up a mini-speculation!! (actually, not so mini now that i type it out haha i managed to yap as always!) i also want to note that at first i thought you meant "rand carrying moiraine rather than rand carrying lan" and died laughing djkfjg

there was previously an alleged leak about moiraine having an incident with a powerful sa'angreal in rhuidean, and @butterflydm's eagle eyes spotted that moiraine appears to be holding something in the poster. rand also appears to have his dragon tattoos, like you say! and i saw a reader with a better memory than me say that the shaido throw spears in a circle around rand when he returns from rhuidean in TSR. so, i theorize that rand will emerge from the glass columns and find moiraine injured/unconscious in rhuidean from said sa'angreal incident, and what we're seeing is their return from rhuidean with rand carrying injured moiraine and moiraine carrying the sa'angreal (which may or may not be the choedan kal or an equivalent).

alas, this would seem to be a replacement of rand emerging from the glass columns and finding injured mat in rhuidean, but there is still hope for Cauthor CPR in another time and place! (first to note, there was the alleged leak a while back that mat would be in tanchico with the girls in s3, so if this new image is indeed the return from rhuidean, then mat very likely is not at rhuidean, which lends further credence to the mat-in-tanchico leak and also makes unlikely the theory that mat could go into a doorway in tanchico and get spit out in rhuidean. plus, donal was doing hadestown for all but a couple days of the south africa leg of filming, so based on that it seems unlikely he could be involved much or at all in the waste storyline.)

anyway, here's how Cauthor CPR can still win!

from a variety of vague cast/crew comments and just plain ol' narrative sense, we feel pretty confident that moiraine vs. lanfear mutual doorway yeeting will happen in the s3 finale. we also have had numerous comments pointing to the gang all being together still in 3x01. it makes sense to me that the gang could spend just about all of 3x01 together before splitting up on their respective roadtrips, because making the most of this precious Together Time feels in keeping with the show's emphasis on the bonds between all the characters. we can suspect from other comments that liandrin will be causing some major action at the white tower in 3x01, but we still need SOME kind of action in the gang's location too, it can't just be everybody hanging around talking for a whole episode (much as *i* would love that haha)

so, perfect time for a doorway trip! it could function as the Inciting Incident for mat; maybe he's feeling angsty and confused after the whole "found out he's a hero of the horn and then immediately stabbed his bestie" situation and goes through the doorway for answers (or potentially his Hero Memories wore off and he wants them back), whereupon they tell him he has to go to *tanchico* instead of rhuidean (maybe because he's fated to meet tuon there?), thus setting him in motion for the season. rand could also go through to get his book Q&A (which may remain secret from us until they're relevant, like in the books) and moiraine could go through - but maybe to get her information about her doorway fate HERE instead of in rhuidean, if they perhaps cut the silver rings and have moiraine doing that sa'angreal incident in rhuidean instead. this might again be kept secret from us until it's relevant, but it would set her in motion for the season. plus, having doorway stuff in 3x01 & 3x08 would make for very neat bookends to the season.

then, i don't see a huge purpose in having mat go through a second doorway later, so maybe he could get his Q&A AND his items AND his hanging all in one trip here. efficiency! mat's hanging was foreshadowed in his bad tea trip in s2, so i feel pretty confident it will still happen in the show (unless it was just a cruel easter egg) even if he isn't in rhuidean. and rand could return from his own Q&A and find mat dying and administer CPR, and this way we get to fit in a nice big emotional moment for mat-rand (which has been probably mat's most focal relationship so far in the show, so makes sense to squeeze in something nice for them) even though they'll be apart for most of the season.

oh! i forgot to add that s2 made a point of noting that turak is a collector of ancient artifacts and has a "room of curiosities" in falme (where he was storing the horn), so this could very easily be a place where the doorway could be hanging around, a la the tear storeroom. i believe that they didn't return to film in morocco for s3, so we don't know for sure if falme will be the gang's starting point, but totally possible that they could be in falme but just indoor scenes done in the studio without needing to go back to morocco for outdoor shots (and i do think that storywise it makes sense for them to all stay in falme taking a breather and figuring out their next moves, which they set out on at the end of the first episode).

another possibility is that mat does get 2 doorway trips like in the books and the second one is in tanchico and TUON gives him CPR, but that would make me feel so robbed i can't even think about the possibility jdkfjg

[megamuscle885-blog]

God I fucking forgot how absolutely insane Dumai's Wells is.

Imagine being a Shaido Aiel. You've got barely any honour, but fuck the other Aiel. You're conquering shit with the rest of your clan. Sure you don't have a clan chief after some gambler cut off his head, and the most influential wise one of your clan can't channel and hasn't been to Rhuidean, but that's fine. Nobody has the right to tell you that you have no honour or pride. They don't understand. You are the only true Aiel. The only ones who haven't sold themselves to a wetlander king.

And now we get to take the so-called Car'a'carn for ourselves. We just need to take him from the Aei Sedai. The wise ones can handle them.

Then the fucking grass explodes into wolves, arrows punch into your backs from 300 paces, a huge cavalry charge slams into your flanks and fresh lightning and fire suddenly surround you, people's skulls just explode like ripe melons or burst into flames with zero impact at all. This was supposed to be easy. Some mad bearded fucker is hacking through you all with an axe, and a tinker of all things is swinging a sword at you. Then the chest at the center of the copse of trees explodes violently. A woman is screaming her soul out at the epicenter. The Dragon Reborn is free. Then the man to your left is split in half by a string of light that widens into a doorway, and out of that doorway steps a man who turns your whole body into shredded meat as soon as he looks at you.

You don't even have time to scream in pain.

[iliiuan]

My pick:

Hannah Waddingham as Sevanna of the Shaido Aiel.

[asha-mage]

Robert Jordan finished WoT AU 😈

[Send me a potential AU and I'll answer with five things from that story!]

ahahaahahaha, you bait me so zorpi! This is more a 'things I reasonably can guess from my many read through the series' more then anything else, but-

Based on Perrin's portion of the Jordan written ending their was clearly meant to be a moment where Perrin had to choose between Faile's safety and the fulfillment of his duty- and choose his duty, trusting in Faile to protect herself and make her own choices. This is also pretty clearly what Malden and the battle with the Shaido was meant to set up: Perrin realizing that his obsessive desire to protect/love Faile was as much flaw as virtue, and that true love would be trusting her strength and courage. In Jordan's ending I would guess that this would likely have manifested having a choice between leaving the Two Rivers force at the front lines to go rescue Faile, who is carrying the Horn to Mat, or else stay with the Two Rivers Forces and trust Faile- choosing the later. Thus his racing through the battlefield in the aftermath, and finding Faile still alive in the carnage, would be his arc reaching it's conclusions, being rewarded for his trust and faith in her.

Mat was, I suspect, supposed to play a much larger role in the negotiations to get the Seanchan into the coalition against the Shadow, serving as leverage and pressure to get Tuon to the table and to agree to the terms- I also suspect based on his reticence regarding the Empire from when he and Tuon part in KoD, he was supposed to be a lot more reluctant/put off on the idea of commanding the Seanchan forces, and it was originally supposed to be Tuon's idea and/or part of her compromise- she'll join, but her army will follow Mat, not the Dragon appointed supreme commander.

I think we would have gotten a lot more Gabrelle, Toveine, and Logain as our Black Tower PoVs/the counter coup against Taim- Toveine was already being set up in this role in KoD and prior, and it would make sense as a means for her to 'redeem' herself of the Vileness, and it fits with Jordan's usual 'closing of the circle' that one of the Red Sister who helped with the slaughter of the men who could channel, would be one of the first and strongest converts to the Black Tower's cause.

I think we where supposed to also a get bit more thematic conflict/contrast between Graendal and Rand in Arad Doman. In general the political situatuion in Arad Doman feels very....off from how Jordan normally works politics. I think the broad beats (destruction of Natrin's Barrow, failure to stabilize the region, Rand abandoning Bandar Ebon to starve at his lowest moment) would be the same, but it feels very strange things like the merchant council politics and Graendal's broader parallels to Rand (especially in that moment- as she /also/ crumpled under impossible standards and failure to live up to perfection as Rand is currently inthe process of doing) would be far more dug into.

Finally, I think we would have had a least one major reunion scene with the original Emond's Field 5- I know this is something Sanderson wanted to do and tried very hard to manage but didn't quite fit in, which I think is sad. It really feels like their is a missing moment in there, where Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve where all supposed to sit down and reflect on how far they've come and how before the final battle. It especially feels like something that would have been appropriate from either Nynaeve and Rand's perspective.

[demenior]

My pet peeve is that I think the Wheel of Time, a series infamous for one of the main characters being poly jesus, should actually have had more polyamory and I think it should have been Perrin and Faile and actually I think it would have solved a lot of problems AND introduced a lot of funny ones

My candidates to join this couple and what impact it could have had on the plot:

(spoilers for the whole book series)

1. Gaul - you don't even have to change anything, Gaul was basically Perrin's boyfriend the moment Perrin rescued him. PLUS Gaul brings Bain and Chiad who are already basically Faile's girlfriends.

2. Bain and Chiad - see above. You literally don't have to change anything except now B&C get to turn their taunting/flirting on Perrin and when hes in a sassy mood they'd be delighted. Plus they bring Gaul with them and again, see above.

3. Aram - I think if Perrin and Faile had given Aram like 1 kiss each he would have been physically incapable of betraying them and he would have quite literally done anything for them. Polyamory could have fixed him.

4. Loial - I think he deserved at least 1 fling before getting married

5. Berelain - a pretty obvious one. But I think she would actually be thrilled to be Faile's girlfriend once they got over the phase of trying to kill each other all the time.

6. Grady or Neald - I just love the loyalty these two Asha'man have to Perrin and I think that fealty could become a little more homoerotic

7. Slayer - enemies to lovers!!!!!!! Perrin gets Issam, Faile gets Luc. They can't lose!!!!

8. Galad - literally nothing funnier than the leader of the Whitecloaks ready to kill Thee Shadowspawn with the Golden Eyes and he ends up kissing him instead. Something something sword play joke.

9. Tallanvor - in my opinion this is the funniest one possible and it happens when Faile and Morgase are with the Shaido and the men are sleeping under wagons because they're sad. They have one too many miserable hookups that they don't talk about but they keep coming back for more. The women return and now Perrin and Tally have to deal with the 'what are we' issue.

[brutalhonesttruths]

Shaido GPF medallist agenda starts now

[rondocapri]

Guys i was reading fanfic and they gave a character, who has no canonical last name, the last name “shaidorov” ITS FATE 🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮

[dropoff99]

Moderate Wheel of Time Book Spoilers ahead:

I can’t speak for the WoT community but seeing WoT discourse for over 20 years I’ve seen all kinds of takes on the Seanchan but there seems to be some confusion on their role in the story overall from show audiences so I will simply give my take.

The Seanchan are a civilization that was needed to demonstrate that the forces of the shadow aren’t the only major threat to Randland. There are several examples like this in the story of groups who have degrees of selfishness, cruelty, and prejudice but none as strong as the Seanchan. These include the Whitecloaks, the Red Ajah(Elaida), Shaido, Tairen/Cairhienin Lords, and generally anyone with bigoted ideas or power-hungry agendas who aren’t darkfriends or members of the shadow. The shadow uses these people and groups as useful tools to enact the dark ones bidding.

The Seanchan aren’t inherently “evil” (only the shadow/forsaken/dark one really occupy that role) but of course do lots of evil things and are more or less the worst active group in the story outside of the shadow. They are manipulated by the shadow (forsaken) which the show pretty much tells you but doesn’t go into how far back that goes. But they also don’t need a lot of help when it comes to being awful. The only defense of them you will really find among the fan base are things cited directly from the books or individual characters that were redeemable.

For example, once you swear oaths to Seanchan rule they more or less leave you alone (aside from the channelers obviously). They eliminate crime and corruption (though not from their own ranks as effectively) and arguably treat their citizens more fairly than many kingdoms they conquer. This is all governed by a strict legal code and honor culture followed in their society. Jordan demonstrates the downside of that culture and how it has developed and been exploited to thwart and enslave Aes Sedai and channelers.

The Seanchan are a major example (along with the Aiel) of how morality and ethics change among cultures after long periods of isolation. They have been across the Aryth Ocean for 1,000 years and their knowledge of their own history isn’t much more than legend. The people they are invading know their pre-history better than they do (particularly that of their founder Artur Hawkwing).

But ultimately they are pretty horrible. They will annihilate anything that opposes them. What they do to channelers and those who show the slightest disobedience is indefensible. They are more or less a demonstration of how “evil” a society can become when you marry ignorance/bigotry with enormous military power.

This is all just to say that if you see a book reader defending the Seanchan in any way, it likely is related to how effective they were at fulfilling a certain role in the series, not due to some sort of agreement with their world view. But even that is kind of rare because they just simply aren’t that popular and only have a couple characters that are really relevant in the long run despite having a constant presence. They are baddies who aren’t the shadow but are still awful/scary.