#shaido

[iliiuan]

The Shaido plotline gets a lot of flak, but I started thinking what the alternates would be. First, let's realize the setting:

Perrin is in Murandy/Amadicia with his odd assembly of armies. The Shaido are roaming around thanks to Sammael. The Seanchan are in Amadicia, pushing East and gathering forces for the assault on the White Tower. Galad's Whitecloak army is marching to Tarmon Gai'don. Masema is wreaking havoc with his (seriously misnamed) Dragonsworn.

Given all of this, an encounter with the Shaido was inevitable, perhaps especially when the ta'veren was off to visit Masema. (Now that I'm thinking about it, that actually justifies the timing.) So, what are the possible encounters and their likely outcomes?

A small group of Shaido comes across Perrin's army camps, leading to the death and capture of many, plus the dispersal of the rest.

A small group of Shaido comes across a small group of Perrin's allies, leading to their capture. (This is what happens in-story.)

A large group of Shaido comes across Perrin's army camps, leading to the capture or death of everyone.

A large group of Shaido comes across a small group of Perrin's allies, which triggers a scouting party who find the rest and now we have #1 with extra steps.

Perrin's scouts find evidence of Shaido and everyone goes into Very Careful Mode.

Some scenarios that wouldn't happen include Perrin's armies kicking Shaido ass on first encounter and the Shaido ignoring Perrin's group.

Now, Faile's capture forms the basis for both Perrin's and her character growth arcs. She transitions from being a spoiled brat runaway princess into an actual leader. Perrin finally grows into a leader of his people, accepting his role and filling his duties.

I understand where people are coming from when they criticize the plotline for placing Faile as a damsel in distress. If we look at it a different way, however, Faile is a prisoner of war. All of the things she endures are things that POWs endure. They are helpless, but we don't read their stories and think, wow, let's be angry because this strong character is helpless. Rather, we think, wow, that situation was shit. And yes, male POWs also have to deal with sexual harassment and rape.

Another aspect of the story as told involves Perrin making poor choices and over focusing on Faile's rescue. It's not just because she's his wife; she's the only family he has left. Even as he rescues her, he watches her take charge of the other prisoners and revels in her competence. Yes, someone had to rescue her, because that's the nature of being a POW, but it didn't rob her of awesome.

[justnotkrikkit]

"the cup of china men's short went really well" chat do we all remember nhk

[rondocapri]

There’s no way in fucking hell im watching pairs it’s at 3 in the mornin

[birgittesilverbae]

tdr ch 39

loc ch 26

Dailin ends up on Rand's list despite having died before any of the Aiel ever met Rand -> Aviendha told him about her cousin dying in the search for him

[staledirt87]

I'm loving Mat and Rand's random battle and political knowledge from ages ago. Give me more

[iliiuan]

People: The Seanchan are evil slavers and I hate them.

Also People: The Shaido are just Confused.

Cannoli: No, assholes. The Shaido are also evil slavers. In fact, they're worse than the Seanchan. Get your heads out of your asses.

Me: What cannoli said. And also Mat didn't "lose his morals" by marrying Tuon. He is actively working towards freeing damane THE ENTIRE CIRCUS ARC. He is thinking DURING THE LAST BATTLE about how he might engage Tuon effectively to convince her to stop the damane program. But sure. Let's paint him as complicit in slavery. That totally makes sense.

Wait! Which man is Seanchan royalty?

[toastandjamie]

Things about the band of the red hand that I think about on the daily:

-all the nobles in the Band competing to be Mat’s Favorite Noble(the answer is Talmanes but no one tell them that)

-after the battle of Cairihan, Talmanes and Nalesian putting aside their differences to defend Mat’s honor from the perceived slight of him not getting a parade

-Talmanes clearly knowing Mat is trying to ditch them and proceeding to insist on going with Mat literally everywhere until Mat gave up

-every noble in the band preening over being on Mat’s short list of “tolerable nobles” they are very proud of this fact and will brag about the fact that Mat willingly interacts with them

-Mat, half delirious from pain, teaching the band Jak’o’shadows and immediately regretting it as the band begins to sing it at every given opportunity and adds an entirely new verse dedicated to him

-while Mat was stuck in Ebou Dar every member of the band that was not with him simultaneously feeling the Ta’veren pull like a Spiderman esque sixth sense for knowing their general is in trouble

-upon feeling the Ta’veren pull, Talmanes immediately guilting Egwene into telling him where Mat is

-the band collectively deciding that their Olver’s cool uncles and teaching him to gamble, flirt with women, use weapons, and steal horses. You know, like responsible adults.

-when Mat is at the tower of genji, Talmanes being left in charge of Olver like the worlds most reluctant babysitter

-after seeing Mat refuse Aes Sedai healing every single member of the band deciding that they to would heal the old fashioned way

-a large portion of the band going out and getting tattoos together after they officially became the Band of The Red Hand

-Mat making one off hand mention of the original Band of the Red Hand from Manethran and the Band deciding that that was now the name of their mercenary band despite Mat’s protests

-the band deciding that No, they will not serve the Dragon Reborn, instead they’ll enlist into the service of the guy who Does Not Want Them

-the band deciding that Mat was a lord on principle because he’s just that good at fighting battles

-not a single member of the band was ever revealed to be a dark friend, they all just genuinely wanted to follow Mat with no ulterior motives

-every member of the band being willing to die for Mat at any given moment

-when Mat initially showed up to warn the army that they were walking into a Shaido ambush, Talmanes calling Mat’s bluff and getting him to begrudgingly agree to leading a portion of the army

-Mat effectively death glaring the bands nobles into a meritocracy

[asha-mage]

Robert Jordan finished WoT AU 😈

[Send me a potential AU and I'll answer with five things from that story!]

ahahaahahaha, you bait me so zorpi! This is more a 'things I reasonably can guess from my many read through the series' more then anything else, but-

Based on Perrin's portion of the Jordan written ending their was clearly meant to be a moment where Perrin had to choose between Faile's safety and the fulfillment of his duty- and choose his duty, trusting in Faile to protect herself and make her own choices. This is also pretty clearly what Malden and the battle with the Shaido was meant to set up: Perrin realizing that his obsessive desire to protect/love Faile was as much flaw as virtue, and that true love would be trusting her strength and courage. In Jordan's ending I would guess that this would likely have manifested having a choice between leaving the Two Rivers force at the front lines to go rescue Faile, who is carrying the Horn to Mat, or else stay with the Two Rivers Forces and trust Faile- choosing the later. Thus his racing through the battlefield in the aftermath, and finding Faile still alive in the carnage, would be his arc reaching it's conclusions, being rewarded for his trust and faith in her.

Mat was, I suspect, supposed to play a much larger role in the negotiations to get the Seanchan into the coalition against the Shadow, serving as leverage and pressure to get Tuon to the table and to agree to the terms- I also suspect based on his reticence regarding the Empire from when he and Tuon part in KoD, he was supposed to be a lot more reluctant/put off on the idea of commanding the Seanchan forces, and it was originally supposed to be Tuon's idea and/or part of her compromise- she'll join, but her army will follow Mat, not the Dragon appointed supreme commander.

I think we would have gotten a lot more Gabrelle, Toveine, and Logain as our Black Tower PoVs/the counter coup against Taim- Toveine was already being set up in this role in KoD and prior, and it would make sense as a means for her to 'redeem' herself of the Vileness, and it fits with Jordan's usual 'closing of the circle' that one of the Red Sister who helped with the slaughter of the men who could channel, would be one of the first and strongest converts to the Black Tower's cause.

I think we where supposed to also a get bit more thematic conflict/contrast between Graendal and Rand in Arad Doman. In general the political situatuion in Arad Doman feels very....off from how Jordan normally works politics. I think the broad beats (destruction of Natrin's Barrow, failure to stabilize the region, Rand abandoning Bandar Ebon to starve at his lowest moment) would be the same, but it feels very strange things like the merchant council politics and Graendal's broader parallels to Rand (especially in that moment- as she /also/ crumpled under impossible standards and failure to live up to perfection as Rand is currently inthe process of doing) would be far more dug into.

Finally, I think we would have had a least one major reunion scene with the original Emond's Field 5- I know this is something Sanderson wanted to do and tried very hard to manage but didn't quite fit in, which I think is sad. It really feels like their is a missing moment in there, where Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve where all supposed to sit down and reflect on how far they've come and how before the final battle. It especially feels like something that would have been appropriate from either Nynaeve and Rand's perspective.

[demenior]

My pet peeve is that I think the Wheel of Time, a series infamous for one of the main characters being poly jesus, should actually have had more polyamory and I think it should have been Perrin and Faile and actually I think it would have solved a lot of problems AND introduced a lot of funny ones

My candidates to join this couple and what impact it could have had on the plot:

(spoilers for the whole book series)

1. Gaul - you don't even have to change anything, Gaul was basically Perrin's boyfriend the moment Perrin rescued him. PLUS Gaul brings Bain and Chiad who are already basically Faile's girlfriends.

2. Bain and Chiad - see above. You literally don't have to change anything except now B&C get to turn their taunting/flirting on Perrin and when hes in a sassy mood they'd be delighted. Plus they bring Gaul with them and again, see above.

3. Aram - I think if Perrin and Faile had given Aram like 1 kiss each he would have been physically incapable of betraying them and he would have quite literally done anything for them. Polyamory could have fixed him.

4. Loial - I think he deserved at least 1 fling before getting married

5. Berelain - a pretty obvious one. But I think she would actually be thrilled to be Faile's girlfriend once they got over the phase of trying to kill each other all the time.

6. Grady or Neald - I just love the loyalty these two Asha'man have to Perrin and I think that fealty could become a little more homoerotic

7. Slayer - enemies to lovers!!!!!!! Perrin gets Issam, Faile gets Luc. They can't lose!!!!

8. Galad - literally nothing funnier than the leader of the Whitecloaks ready to kill Thee Shadowspawn with the Golden Eyes and he ends up kissing him instead. Something something sword play joke.

9. Tallanvor - in my opinion this is the funniest one possible and it happens when Faile and Morgase are with the Shaido and the men are sleeping under wagons because they're sad. They have one too many miserable hookups that they don't talk about but they keep coming back for more. The women return and now Perrin and Tally have to deal with the 'what are we' issue.

[flo-n-flon]

Doing a low effort low pressure #WOTtober challenge on Twitter where I sketch one minor character from the Wheel of time books per day.

The first six days were:

Snow - Rodel Ituralde

Gem - Sevanna of the Jumai Sept of the Shaido Aiel

Shield - Selande Darengil

Silverpike - Juilin Sandar

Wine - Dyelin Taravin

Heart - Chesmal Emry

[iliiuan]

My pick:

Hannah Waddingham as Sevanna of the Shaido Aiel.

[megamuscle885-blog]

God I fucking forgot how absolutely insane Dumai's Wells is.

Imagine being a Shaido Aiel. You've got barely any honour, but fuck the other Aiel. You're conquering shit with the rest of your clan. Sure you don't have a clan chief after some gambler cut off his head, and the most influential wise one of your clan can't channel and hasn't been to Rhuidean, but that's fine. Nobody has the right to tell you that you have no honour or pride. They don't understand. You are the only true Aiel. The only ones who haven't sold themselves to a wetlander king.

And now we get to take the so-called Car'a'carn for ourselves. We just need to take him from the Aei Sedai. The wise ones can handle them.

Then the fucking grass explodes into wolves, arrows punch into your backs from 300 paces, a huge cavalry charge slams into your flanks and fresh lightning and fire suddenly surround you, people's skulls just explode like ripe melons or burst into flames with zero impact at all. This was supposed to be easy. Some mad bearded fucker is hacking through you all with an axe, and a tinker of all things is swinging a sword at you. Then the chest at the center of the copse of trees explodes violently. A woman is screaming her soul out at the epicenter. The Dragon Reborn is free. Then the man to your left is split in half by a string of light that widens into a doorway, and out of that doorway steps a man who turns your whole body into shredded meat as soon as he looks at you.

You don't even have time to scream in pain.

[dropoff99]

Moderate Wheel of Time Book Spoilers ahead:

I can’t speak for the WoT community but seeing WoT discourse for over 20 years I’ve seen all kinds of takes on the Seanchan but there seems to be some confusion on their role in the story overall from show audiences so I will simply give my take.

The Seanchan are a civilization that was needed to demonstrate that the forces of the shadow aren’t the only major threat to Randland. There are several examples like this in the story of groups who have degrees of selfishness, cruelty, and prejudice but none as strong as the Seanchan. These include the Whitecloaks, the Red Ajah(Elaida), Shaido, Tairen/Cairhienin Lords, and generally anyone with bigoted ideas or power-hungry agendas who aren’t darkfriends or members of the shadow. The shadow uses these people and groups as useful tools to enact the dark ones bidding.

The Seanchan aren’t inherently “evil” (only the shadow/forsaken/dark one really occupy that role) but of course do lots of evil things and are more or less the worst active group in the story outside of the shadow. They are manipulated by the shadow (forsaken) which the show pretty much tells you but doesn’t go into how far back that goes. But they also don’t need a lot of help when it comes to being awful. The only defense of them you will really find among the fan base are things cited directly from the books or individual characters that were redeemable.

For example, once you swear oaths to Seanchan rule they more or less leave you alone (aside from the channelers obviously). They eliminate crime and corruption (though not from their own ranks as effectively) and arguably treat their citizens more fairly than many kingdoms they conquer. This is all governed by a strict legal code and honor culture followed in their society. Jordan demonstrates the downside of that culture and how it has developed and been exploited to thwart and enslave Aes Sedai and channelers.

The Seanchan are a major example (along with the Aiel) of how morality and ethics change among cultures after long periods of isolation. They have been across the Aryth Ocean for 1,000 years and their knowledge of their own history isn’t much more than legend. The people they are invading know their pre-history better than they do (particularly that of their founder Artur Hawkwing).

But ultimately they are pretty horrible. They will annihilate anything that opposes them. What they do to channelers and those who show the slightest disobedience is indefensible. They are more or less a demonstration of how “evil” a society can become when you marry ignorance/bigotry with enormous military power.

This is all just to say that if you see a book reader defending the Seanchan in any way, it likely is related to how effective they were at fulfilling a certain role in the series, not due to some sort of agreement with their world view. But even that is kind of rare because they just simply aren’t that popular and only have a couple characters that are really relevant in the long run despite having a constant presence. They are baddies who aren’t the shadow but are still awful/scary.

[rondocapri]

Guys i was reading fanfic and they gave a character, who has no canonical last name, the last name “shaidorov” ITS FATE 🔮🔮🔮🔮🔮

[cannoli-reader]

Perrin's quest, from Rand's perspective

Bouncing off @toastandjamie's post about what Rand's shenanigans look like to Mat, I thought about Rand's reaction to learning about Perrin's adventures in the Two Rivers. We just get a quick reaction when he meets the Tower-bound girls in the inn, before his attention becomes much more preoccupied with what happens shortly after, and then his reunion with Perrin is from Perrin's PoV.

So they know they are ta'veren, and know about stories of Hawkwing and so forth, but they generally can't see how it applies to themselves, except in the really obvious events that break the probability curve. But Rand does have some experience with a sudden rise to leadership. By the time the Two Rivers folk reach Caemlyn, he holds at least four or five different leadership positions himself. He's the ruler of Tear, by virtue of being the Dragon Reborn, he is the Car'a'carn, the conqueror of Cairhien and the de facto regent of Caemlyn.

Rand is a figure of prophecy, and the most powerful ta'veren in history. In Tear, he drew Callandor, the object that is the raison d'etre of the Stone of Tear, and by extension, the High Lords and their nation. And getting them to cooperate without death threats is like pulling teeth. He doesn't observe any qualities of the Tairens that impress him with their determination or resolve or independent spirit, but he just cannot get anywhere with them, without the direct application of force. Then there are the Aiel, with more prophecies singling him, and every clan sending spears across the Dragonwall to find him, and one prophecy in particular known to all the Wise Ones and clan chiefs that their survival absolutely depends on him. And again, a good third of them tell him to fuck off and another third drag their feet, only joining up after the other claimant to the position is dead. Bearing in mind that every chief and Wise One among the clans following Timolan, had to know that Rand was telling the truth and Couladin was a total liar. And they still held out until Couladin is eliminated. In Cairhien, where the food he sent saved people from starvation and the troops he sent proved to be the difference in holding the city against the Shaido, and he himself led the liberating army that drove them off, he could not even get them to cooperate in asserting their own national identity and sovereignty. In Caemlyn, where they had actual Shadowpawn corpses for evidence, and all he wanted of them was to restore the status quo of their own laws and customs and kept insisting he had no intention of ruling, all he got was people trying to get him to assert his authority or demanding he not do any of the things he said he wouldn't. And bearing in mind, in the latter two countries, they have to be aware of his position and destined leadership role. But the "good" faction of Andoran nobles are more ready to fight him over their class privilege and independence (a readiness none of them showed wrt the man who actually crowned himself King of Andor and claimed the Lion Throne, whom none of them even knew could channel) than talk about preparing for Tarmon Gaidon.

And then Perrin goes home, where the Children of the Light have somehow been sent by Padan Fain to terrorize their people (think of that trope in movies and so forth, where the hero arrives at home or wherever his family is, to discover his enemies have popped in for a visit and his loved ones are learning about their conflict for the first time, and after the confrontation is resolved, his parents or spouse are angry and upset and demanding explanations: that should, to Rand's & Perrin's thinking, have been the Two Rivers folk to Perrin & Rand over the enemies they caused to descend on their hometown), where their own actions and failures have led to this invasion of their homeland, and he's going to try to make it right. There are the folk whose reputation for stubbornness and independence is known in the court of Andor, by people who are unaware of their current standing with the national legal system. Gawyn doesn't know how utterly indifferent the Two Rivers folk are to his mother's rule, but he does know they are stubborn and difficult to lead. And Rand, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve have spent the last year and a half telling the Aes Sedai who did help them when the Shadow was hunting them, where to head in, while Egwene has been about as cooperative as a broken-legged mule at helping her ex do anything other than hook up with her bff, never mind that the fate of the world rests on his success (arguably with the hooking up as well, though neither of them know that).

And when Rand meets some people from home, it's all Lord Perrin this, and Lord Perrin that. Also, at some point, Rand seems to have twigged to the fact that the girlfriend Perrin never introduced to him is also the daughter of his current advisor, since it is on his mind when Perrin leaves his rooms to go meet the parents, and no mention of any surprise at learning this during their visit. And Perrin has married the daughter of a triple lord and great captain, the uncle of a queen and Marshal-General of one of the most militaristic states in the known world. Meanwhile the Lord Dragon before whom the world kneels in awe, is getting hate mail from one woman for trying to support her career, and the one he actually slept with, is treating him like he has a communicable disease, while not cooperating at all with his efforts to protect her from the danger he attracts.

Rand saved Cairhien from Shaido and the Stone of Tear and the Royal Palace of Andor from Trollocs. He is the only hope of saving the Aiel from Tarmon Gaidon. And you'd think these were crimes he had committed against them for all the gratitude they show, much less obedience they give.

The majhere of the Stone makes Rand feel guilty about asking for extra mattresses, Reene Harfor searches Rand's room for loot, but Mistress Luhan curtsies to Perrin. He has to be wondering, how the hell is Perrin doing it? Which one of them is actually the super-ta'veren again!?

[erinaonice]

matias and shaido still have the superior dunes