#savathun: WHAT IS YOUR TRUTH NOW

[thefirstknife]

i don't have a team to do the dungeon with, so i gotta ask. What are the lucent brood doin on Titan? Are they under Xivu's command now?

The Lucent Brood were trying to resurrect Oryx (whose body was found on Titan in the deep sea). They planned to do so with the combination of Light (a Ghost) and necromancy.

It's currently unclear if Xivu played a part here. In the trailer, the narration is Xivu saying "All who pass through these halls are mine." However, she does not say this anywhere in the dungeon itself. The only time we hear Xivu speak in the dungeon is in collectibles which are Xivu's memories. It's revealed that Xivu was visiting Oryx's grave frequently and grieving. Whatever she was saying at his corpse and her memories in general were absorbed by the corpse itself, which is why we were able to hear them.

We learn that Xivu Arath was devastated when she learned that Oryx has died. She could hardly believe it and she was especially angry because we didn't take up his spot when we killed him. The Sword Logic demands it. But when we refused to do that, we refused the Sword Logic, but we still proved that we were stronger than Oryx, thus proving that we're stronger than the Sword Logic and that the Sword Logic is not the ultimate worldview. This completely shattered Xivu and sowed a seed of doubt in her head.

AND HIS KILLERS HAVE NOT ASSUMED THE MANTLE OF THE TAKEN KING. BLASPHEMY. BLASPHEMY! HOW? HOW CAN THE SPEAR THAT PIERCED A MILLION WORLDS BE KILLED BY THOSE WHO WOULD DENY THE ALL-EDGED TRUTHS? ... WAS IT ALL FOR... NOTHING?

This not only caused doubt in her, but also a need to bring him back, or attempt it. Listen to this:

I HAVE DIED... AND YET WAS SUMMONED BACK BY YOU. YOU, WHO REMEMBERED ME AS WAR? OUR SISTER DIED, AND WAS SUMMONED BACK BY YOU. YOU, WHO CONSPIRED WITH HER CUNNING? SO IT MUST BE FOR NOW. IF YOUR LEGACY IS TRUE, BROTHER, IT WILL COME UNTO US AND DEFEAT OUR BLASPHEMY. AND IF NOT... IF NOT, WHAT WE ATTEMPT CANNOT BE BLASPHEMY. FOR WE HAVE SURVIVED YOU. SURPASSED THE POWER OF YOUR WILL. AIAT. AIAT.

She's recounting how the Hive have a way to bring someone back and specifically she is recounting the event when Oryx invoked the nature of his sisters to return them to life. She's musing on how to bring him back in a similar way and is trying to justify it to herself that what she's attempting wouldn't be "blasphemy."

But going forward, she continuously denies the Light, is extremely aggravated about Savathun going to the Light, speaks in praise of the Witness and the Final Shape arriving and talks how the Witness will end us eventually. So, would someone who said all of this really go to commit the ultimate blasphemy of not only using the Light, something she despises her sister for, but also necromancy, one of the biggest heresies of the Hive? Savathun was exiled for the crime of heresy!

However, Xivu Arath's final message is very poignant and relevant as well. She is still having doubt and attachments. She is still grieving and she is still compromised by her love for her family. So maybe she would go that far, especially if she does it in hiding, so that nobody knows it's her who directed it. This bit is also important because it echoes the exact same thoughts from Savathun:

WHAT IS THIS FEELING? THE SKY IS MORTALLY WOUNDED, BLEEDING OUT. YET... A PART OF ME LONGS FOR THE COMFORT OF THE GARDENS. OF YOUR STORIES. OF SISTER'S. I LONG FOR OUR JOURNEYS TOGETHER... ... WHAT IS THIS FEELING? I DO NOT WANT IT!

Savathun in Hawkmoon tab from Season of the Hunt:

I am reminded of my home. I am reminded of the warmth of the sun and the embrace of my family. I am reminded of my father's face. I am reminded of everyone I betrayed. All the blood spilled in the name of immortality. The warmth of the sun burns me with its memory.

What is this feeling?

I do not want it.

When Savathun said this, she was already an established heretic to the Hive, exiled and reviled by the rest, as well as on the run from the Black Fleet. If Xivu is experiencing this, it must mean that she is actively doubting her place and allegiance. So did she secretly team up with some Lucent Hive to try and do this? Is she using them as a cover to try and bring back Oryx? Or are these two things entirely unrelated and Xivu's mourning for her brother and inability to let go is entirely independed of what the Lucent Brood tried to accomplish?

Because there's no way she could attempt this openly and remain in the good graces of the rest of the Hive, especially her own. And there's no way that this would fly with the Witness. As a matter of fact, now that we've seen the exact depths of her attachment and love for family, we also know that she is most certainly not a Disciple. This attachment would preclude her from it. This whole thing might be a mystery on purpose; Xivu is still largely unknown to us. Could be a tactical distraction, some sort of strategy in war to confuse us or split our attention. I'm really interested in what others think about this because we have evidence for both options.

[night-dark-woods]

Finally reading all the way through the Witch Queen CE lorebook and thinking about the three queens... these are the only entries i can find that mention that thought experiment.

WQCE:

By poking random spots, I've got the idea that the crystal is composed of different isomer territories which compete along their boundaries to recruit each other. The isomer domains also generate mutants within themselves, which spread and take over if they have superior recruiting properties; I've even seen encysted "laboratories" where mutants compete before the winners breach the barrier and spill into the surrounding lattice. Our three queens in action again? I promise not to dive into Bieberbach's theorem and abelian subgroups, but there's some fascinating math going on here.

Infinite Lines Gauntlets:

"I saw three queens. No, two. No... just one." —RECORD 351-CHASM-6915

and then this part of the initial lore entry that the idea is from:

Ghost Fragment: Darkness 3:

Imagine three great nations under three great queens. The first queen writes a great book of law and her rule is just. The second queen builds a high tower and her people climb it to see the stars. The third queen raises an army and conquers everything.

The future belongs to one of these queens. Her rule is harshest and her people are unhappy. But she rules.

This explains everything, understand? This is why the universe is the way it is, and not some other way. Existence is a game that everything plays, and some strategies are winners: the ability to exist, to shape existence, to remake it so that your descendants - molecules or stars or people or ideas - will flourish, and others will find no ground to grow.

And as the universe ticks on towards the close, the great players will face each other. In the next round there will be three queens and all of them will have armies, and now it will be a battle of swords - until one discovers the cannon, or the plague, or the killing word.

Everything is becoming more ruthless and in the end only the most ruthless will remain (LOOK UP AT THE SKY) and they will hunt the territories of the night and extinguish the first glint of competition before it can even understand what it faces or why it has transgressed. This is the shape of victory: to rule the universe so absolutely that nothing will ever exist except by your consent. This is the queen at the end of time, whose sovereignty is eternal because no other sovereign can defeat it. And there is no reason for it, no more than there was reason for the victory of the atom. It is simply the winning play.

that thesis statement (This is the shape of victory: to rule the universe so absolutely that nothing will ever exist except by your consent.) is also echoed here:

The Hidden Dossier:

Sen-Aret, let me tell you something I have told no one else. I know that in the end, the Darkness can win. Do you understand what I mean? By its very nature, the Darkness is the judge of what will exist and what will pass away. In the end, there may be only Darkness because all that exists will remain only by its consent.

Crest of Alpha Lupi:

Whoever survives our passing does so only by our consent.

and interestingly enough, also echoed by Uldren here (while he's under Savathun's influence by way of Riven!):

Free | Part I:

"I've come to finish it," Uldren tells her. He even tries to smile, because he is being honest. He's telling the truth. "I've realized I was a fool to try to surprise her. We all exist through her design, Illyn. We all act only by her consent. I'm going to save her, because she needs me to save her. When she needs me to die, I will die. And when she has completed her great design for the Awoken, the Awoken will die, too. It is the reward we so richly deserve, for we owe everything to Mara. It would be… wrong for us to outlive our purpose. Trust me. Life without her is worse than… worse than…"

no real point here! i just love finding all the repititions of a phrase in the lore tabs.

[mantleoflight]

A Talk, A Trade, A Trick-deal Made || Pt 1 || Proposal

The Hive network warbled as Immaru considered his reply. A guardian had reached out, actually reached out through his own network to try and reach a deal. It rackled his shell knowing the Guardians had been able to hack it in the first place, but this one... this one was wanting to talk-- arrogant little pinprick.

"Heh, I don't know if this is or isn't the biggest act of stupidity I've ever seen a guardian do,” he began smugly, “openin’ comms and revealing your position like we ain’t gonna jump on yeh the first chance we get.”

“Do it,” Echo challenged. “I’m in no hurry and I’ve got plenty of space to bubble some more of your buddies. It’s just up to you how many you want to send to hang around in my vault.”

“Why you cocky little—“

“Would you rather I squish ‘em?” Echo asked, interrupting the ghost. “I can do that. I don’t want to but I can.”

Immaru gave a soft growl, the click of his shell audible as he gyrated it. “How did you get this channel?” He snarled, flexing his shell. “Non a’ you bums run dirty enough teh get in.”

“Doesn’t matter,” the Exo said flippantly. “What matters is I want to talk with your boss about ending this war.”

“Ending it?” Immaru asked incredulously, “what, can’t finish a fight you started? Can’t end a war you brought in?”

“Savathun started this war before she was risen,” Echo snapped back. “And now that she’s risen, she can end it too.”

“What, you think we’re dumb enough teh let you in after what you and your vanguard buddies have been doing in the Throne World? How stupid d’you think we are?”

Echo said sternly. "It's only stupid if you see what's going on as a chess or go game with us on opposite sides. But if you look at the big scheme of things, we're not."

Immaru snorted. "Huh! Guardians comin' into Savathun's throne world, takin' out our forces? Sounds like we're on opposite sides t'me."

"Because that's how it was set up," Echo countered, gesturing even though no one could see. "By setting us Guardians to blunder our way through, your Savathun gets Imbaru from us getting things wrong and then doubting what we get right."

Immaru flicked his shell irritatedly. "You're stating stuff we already know. Get to the point already."

"Sav wanted Imbaru to boost her power right? Get her ready for us. But from what I see, it’s a losing battle and you guys are on the short end.”

“So what, you call me up just teh brag in my face about it? Tch, you guardians are all alike. I’m signin’ off.”

“Hold on,” Echo interrupted, “you’re right, some want to beat you to a pulp. But I want to end the conflict between the Lucent Brood and the Vanguard, and I want to do it without putting you down.”

The line went silent.

Immaru had been expecting a lot of things. That wasn't one of them.

"End the Conflict, huh?" he repeated, gyrating his shell. "What makes you think you can do it? What, you gonna wave your hand at your vanguard, tell 'em ‘these aren't the ghosts they're lookin' for’ and move on like nothin' happened? Like you guardians ain't got the dust of us ghosts all over yer hands."

Echo's fists clenched. She could hear the barely constrained ire in the ghost's voice, the resentment boiling in his voice. Resentment she shared...

"Because I'm one of the only guardians who've spared any of your hive ghosts," she answered fiercely. "If I can find a way to fight them without killing them, then I can find a way to make peace between the Vanguard and the Lucent."

“Heh, that’s a tall order, glitter bug,” Immaru remarked. “You sure you can deliver?”

“Only one way to find out,” Echo said staunchly.

Immaru and the Witch Queen glanced at each other, Immaru to gauge his Risen's reaction and Savathun out of habit and interest. A Lightbearer willing to barter for peace. A pitfall Oryx fell into but nonetheless intriguing.

"Alright," Savathun said, her voice like rough spiderwebs over the comms. "Come to the Altars of Truth, guardian. We'll discuss more about your proposal there."

With that, the line closed, leaving the hunter standing in her hidden cavern. Whisper materialized in the open air, her eye fixed on her risen.

"This is a trap," she said, trying hard not to bark her words. "This is a trap and we know it."

"Well, she wouldn’t come out if wasn’t," Echo said, slipping off her bubble glove.

"But you can't reason with the hive," the ghost pressed. "They grow by killing, and not just for food or supplies, but just for the sake of killing. And you’re waking into the claws of the most dangerous one out there!”

Echo paused and looked up at her ghost. “I know,” she said heavily. “But if we’re to survive what the Witness is going to do, we need all Lights on deck and we don’t have time to wait for Savathun’s brood to figure their way out of their personal dark ages. We have to help them. And if we can get a treaty between the Lucent and the Vanguard, then that’s one less battlefront we need to worry about.”

“But she—“ Whisper stopped as her risen gave her a look and hovered, jittering her shell. “You’re really serious about this,” she said in a hushed tone. “Even if she kills you…”

Echo frowned and nodded solemnly. “If she kills me, then the Young Wolf will be able to bring her down like they did Oryx and Crota. But if this works, then we’ll have an ally at best and a dubious neutral at worst. Either way… I can’t stand aside and keep watching Ghosts die. I have to try.”

Whisper gazed at her guardian searchingly, hoping, and let her shell droop when she saw her resolve. “Okay. Okay Echo. But if they hurt you, I’m eating Immaru.”

Echo gave a laugh as Whisper stored her bubble gauntlet. “Then let’s hope they don’t hurt me!” She laughed and made her way out.

[solarkell]

fiirecracker

the spider knows what they are capable of, and so he sends them out. she is nothing if not efficient. not just because of the light behind his eyes, or its firm understanding of the eliksni language. no, this lightbearer has something many of her comrades do not; the ability to twist the void and aim straight for the mind. a dangerous ability, and one that has often carved a great distance between them and other guardians. but efficient. necessary, even, in its line of work. it can take what others would refuse to give. that makes them invaluable to the spider. that makes her dangerous. he follows the trail left by the rumored return, knowing not what the truth will be. a risen kell? possible, given the recent revelations about savathun and her ilk. probable? now that... that is the question. and if it is true? well, the spider wants him. alive. the warlock emerges through the underbrush, wincing as his hand catches the edge of a sharpened stick. her fingers curl around the wound. light pulses. it is gone before the blood ever stained its robes. it is instinct, certainly nothing they considered. not when he stands before them. tall, proud, alive. resplendent, she thinks, and feels the air pulled from her lungs. "apologies," says the risen in the kell's native tongue, clasping his hands in front of it. their lips pull into a smile. they bow their head in greeting. it is hard not to look at him. "i did not mean to intrude. i have... heard rumors, of your return. i wanted to know the truth."

To hear his own language from the mouth of this stranger is... surprising, to say the least. It shows, in the way his orange eyes narrow thoughtfully, and in how he slowly turns to face him. Widow chirps, and Skolas tucks her safely further into the mantle.

"You must be bold." Skolas comments, his low growl laced with a cautious tone. He's making it clear enough, he does not trust it, and will not simply accept the presence of another. For anyone to turn up here, and be polite- excited, even- rather than afraid, or at the least cautious? An oddity amidst oddities. Something to not be taken lightly.

When one has a fledgeling House to look out for, one must be careful, after all.

"You have your answer," he adds after a moment of scrutinizing silence. "Now what will you do with it? Run? Tell tale? Spread word amidst the stars that the Kell of Kells walks again?" It's more of a challenge than a question, an unspoken promise; I am ready to hurt you.

"Or do you, speaker of my tongue, fancy yourself something kinder and smarter?"

Starter for @fiirecracker ;; Thistle

Intel can come from anywhere, everywhere. Anytime.

Whispers and rumors have passed through The Spider's web recently. Rumors of something that should have been long-since-dead. Something that burns red-hot and drives off anything that sets foot beneath the canopies he calls home. Bearing a familiar faded blue and the sigil of a House extinct.

But rumors are many things, including often untrue. Whispers, without any presentable evidence.

And yet... there's evidence, here. Scratched bark where tall horns have scuffed trees, parted undergrowth where something massive has made its way across, a scrap of faded blue threads caught on a branch, creating a trail that winds into the dense trees and away from the jungle's edge.

At the end of it stands the Kell of Kells, looking up through a gap in the canopy and idly puffing orange ether-vapor from a cracked rebreather. A Ghost in a shell with spider-like legs sits in the ruff of fur worn around his neck, comfortable as can be nested there.

"I know you're there," the Kell of Kells announces in his native tongue after a beat of silence, and lowers his gaze, though he doesn't yet turn it Thistle's way. No, he stands still, and basks in the dappled sunlight that surrounds him like a thin shroud. "You carry the scent of Eliksni, but you are not one of us. Why have you come here?"

[endivinity]

meeting the queen

[thefirstknife]

It may be nothing, but there is one other place in lore tabs we see | quotes | without a defined source and that's the Aeon Cult exotics. I don't think Bungie would call a shot that early, but with the Tones...might be worth looking at more

Aeon Cult exotics are so bizarre. There's so much going on there and while, yeah, this may have been made too early to really be of any use right now, we just don't know. They use the ( ) and [ ] brackets though.

Brackets can be sometimes inconsistent however. The [ ] brackets are generally something we've seen Savathun use, but here they're being used as well. These brackets are also in the title of one of the tabs in Trials and Tribulations (aka the lore book about the tones). In Constellations, II brackets indicate the Traveler, but in Sola's Scar, II brackets are the Darkness tempting a character to embrace stasis.

Back to Aeons, each of them also has the text all mixed up so you have to separate it to really read it properly. This is how it's presented in each one in order (Hunter, Titan, Warlock) (it's a long copy of the text so under):

[ (we followed the Path) [the Path crumbled beneath our feet] (our feet became one mind) [one mind can absorb the truth] (the truth is that Osiris understands nothing) [nothing can describe the joy of shared thought] (thought you knew what they were didn't you) [you haven't lived as they do] (do you wish to find your future) [your future is predetermined] (predetermined individuals will never find answers) [answers lie in forbidden places] (places bound by shared dreams) [shared dreams will reveal your nature] (your nature is to destroy) [destroy your sense of self] (self-preservation coddles leaders into ritual complacence) [complacence is something i have forgotten] (i have forgotten loneliness uncertainty life alone) [alone i see with my six eyes] (eyes watching from beyond the heliopause) [the heliopause is a curtain before the next and final act] (act decisively to meld with yourselves) [yourselves will know you] (you together alone striving toward your final purpose) [purpose built to move as they move] (move to stand apart from your heroes) [heroes are commonplace these days] (days of change draw ever closer) [closer looks at what is forbidden can only help] (help them help you) [you are so afraid of the taboos] (taboos must be overthrown) [overthrown rulers would agree i'm sure] (surely you are convinced by now) [now go and find yourselves] ]

And this is what it's like when you group them by brackets, which seems to show that there's two different narrators:

(we followed the Path) (our feet became one mind) (the truth is that Osiris understands nothing) (thought you knew what they were didn't you) (do you wish to find your future) (predetermined individuals will never find answers) (places bound by shared dreams) (your nature is to destroy) (self-preservation coddles leaders into ritual complacence) (i have forgotten loneliness uncertainty life alone) (eyes watching from beyond the heliopause) (act decisively to meld with yourselves) (you together alone striving toward your final purpose) (move to stand apart from your heroes) (days of change draw ever closer) (help them help you) (taboos must be overthrown) (surely you are convinced by now) [the Path crumbled beneath our feet] [one mind can absorb the truth] [nothing can describe the joy of shared thought] [you haven't lived as they do] [your future is predetermined] [answers lie in forbidden places] [shared dreams will reveal your nature] [destroy your sense of self] [complacence is something i have forgotten] [alone i see with my six eyes] [the heliopause is a curtain before the next and final act] [yourselves will know you] [purpose built to move as they move] [heroes are commonplace these days] [closer looks at what is forbidden can only help] [you are so afraid of the taboos] [overthrown rulers would agree i'm sure] [now go and find yourselves]

There's also other ways to read this that gives other possible combinations of sentences, so I could be copypasting a lot of other options. This is absolutely bonkers and also super interesting in retrospect. The stuff about "becoming one mind" and "the joy of shared thought" with the knowledge about how Darkness is used to merge consciousness? Yeah.

Some other interesting lines are also "eyes watching from beyond the heliopause" and "the heliopause is a curtain before the next and final act." Again, this was probably not written with any of the new stuff so well-defined, but reading it now is really intriguing with how the story went since.

Still, I have no clue what is truly going on here. We have no idea what Cult of the Aeons is (or was) and we have no idea who the narrator(s) here are or what they really tried telling us and why. It's also impossible to say if this may have been some abandoned plot thread from years ago or not. Either way, an interesting little niche piece of lore! It's possible that it may pop up again at any point, but it's also equally possible that it was just something meant to be flavour or intriguing with no real meaning. It's very interesting nonetheless!

[bonesingerofyme-loc]

It’s not ours

I’ve seen people refer to the Traveler a few times as ‘ours’ or how the Hive tried to ‘take it from us’. Which would follow, since that was pretty much the reaction of the Vanguard in-game and the angle Bungie took with the marketing for the expansion.

The Light isn’t ours. Nor is the Sky. Nor is the Traveler. Merely because the Traveler chose to make her stand at Earth does not give humanity the ultimate right to make decisions for the Traveler or to exert our control of her. The Traveler gifted us the Light, it didn’t swear to be ours and ours alone.

Consider the wager. The Sky stands as gentle complexity. A good kingdom ringed by spears, where the strong defend the weak and life blooms in multiplicity. The Deep stands as the blade edge, the kingdom of war, that eliminates all life until there is only the last man standing.

By that Wager, the Traveler gifted us the Light. Upon us were weighed no demands and restrictions were not emplaced. The Light is to do with as we will, because it is will that the Sky loves. Choice and the freedom of it. When warlords rampaged in the Dark Ages - did the Traveler chastise them and tell them no? When Rezzyl Azir threw down his burden and turned his face from the Sky, did the Traveler yank hard his reins and tell him ‘no’? When the Iron Lords slaughtered the warlords, when they crushed ghosts underfoot to break the cycle of violence, did the Traveler chastise them for not finding another way?

What we do with the Light is what is meaningful. For good or evil, right or wrong, each action and choice we take is precious and so the Traveler cannot, will not, speak. To speak would be to influence us and tarnish that precious choice.

By contrast the Deep commands. Though it gave us stasis, it constantly speaks to us, gives us hints, eggs us on, teases and leads us. It has demands of its own and what we want is not secondary - it is immaterial.

This may seem an aside, to explore the purpose of Deep and Sky, but I am illustrating a picture.

The Sky wishes for rich life and vibrancy of disagreement, of concord, of strife and peace. The Sky wishes for life, in all it’s beauty and pain. 

When we claim the Traveler as ours, when we claim the Light as ours, when we look at the Lucent Hive with trembling limbs and curling lips and find palms on stocks and blades aquiver, we are asserting the Deep claim.

We are saying that “We alone are right. We alone are mighty. We alone may be the only Shape.” The Deep demands a single champion, the Light cherishes a billion. For us to jealously hoard the Light and the Traveler is to make us into the only champion of the Light. We are perverting it’s purpose.

Does it mean it is wrong that we fought off the Fallen, that we warred with the Cabal, that we threw down the Osmium Dynasty?

No. 

For that is the freedom of choice the Sky desires for us. And besides - they wanted us dead first. It is never morally wrong to fight for your life.

But the Traveler is showing us a truth. We are beloved, we are precious - and so is all life. Perhaps humans did indeed have a spark that caught the Traveler’s eye, all those centuries ago, which is why She laid down here to fight. 

But it was hubris to ever think that the Light would be ours alone. Ghaul was not deserving of it, because he demanded it, because he tried to steal it, because he impugned on free will.

Savathun chose to die. She accepted her fate, she took all her cards off the table, she threw them away. She wanted the Light, yes, but she did not demand it. She did not hold the Traveler at gunpoint, she did not try to tear Light from it’s body. She asked, and she died. 

At the end of her long, long life, Savathun finally had faith.

Now the Lucent Hive are blessed. Truly blessed. No tricks, no stealing, no magics. And we war on them. 

Again, that is not inherently wrong. The Light is freedom. For us to clash is natural. But the other side of the coin demands recognition too. The Lucent Hive are just as worthy as we to wield the Light. So while we may fight and while we may be at odds, the day will come when we must expect, and should expect, not to be. For the Light is not ours, and it is not theirs. It is the Light, it is given, and none can claim it solely. To do otherwise is to mantle the Deep, and that is a path none should tread.

We were asked to survive the truth, and it was not what was implied. The truth to survive was that all things change and that our humility should be reminded to us. The truth that our precepts were wrong. The truth that we always knew, but maybe had set aside.

We serve the Light. The Light does not serve us.

[lepiidopterophobia]

how could she have not foreseen this?

of course her little titan would be observant. after all she-who-was did to ensure his growth and development, there was no other choice for him. he is her son, her knight. he was born of her womb on titan, baptized in the blood of his siblings. he is one of her brood.

so how could she have missed this?

blue eyes fall to the boy who stands between then and now. something in her chest twists. strands fall between limp fingers. she needs what he now keeps from her. she needs the past, the pieces she-who-was left behind for her to find. how can she know what the sister of shapes planned for her, if she cannot see the outline? how can she foresee the truth, if he has matched her every step of the way?

something unknown swells in her chest.

what is this feeling?

"so," voice thick with honey, savathun takes a moment to pierce the veil between them, "it seems i underestimated you, guardian. so observant for a titan. so clever."

her wings beat in time with you heart, theo, as the witch queen once more looms over you. only this time, there is no crystal to hold her back. there is no queen of the reef to protect you, no xivu arath bearing down to distract. there is nothing in this room but you, the god of cunning, and the altar upon which you have laid sagira's precious shell.

she stares at you for another long, quiet second. there is nothing between you now. no one to save you. no one to save her, either, should you choose to go the way of your brethren— fists first, questions later, that is. silk and vanilla waft with every pulse of her wings. she does not look away from you. she cannot.

"would you like an engram for your troubles?"

there is something not unlike hysteria that rises up in theo’s chest, threatening to burst out in a scream that he is only just able to quell. he stands before a god, the one who’d given him his shape, the reason his skin crawls at the smell of mothsilk and the sight of chitin, and what is there to do but scream? what is there to do but run away, to never look back, to tuck himself into a corner and sob until his own heart crawls out of his throat? his heart, which pounds so loud in his ears that it’s impossible to focus.

the unmistakable feeling of a thrall’s claws dig into his ankle. he could not scream, then, for fear of attracting more.

theo’s ears pin back against his skull. despite himself, he plants his feet, balls his hands into fists. there is something else in his chest, pushing past the hysteria – maybe it’s courage, but he does not know. all he knows is that it carries him forwards as he steps closer to the visage of his worst nightmare, opens his mouth, and continues,

“did you think i wouldn’t notice?” the titan almost sounds indignant, a touch of genuine offense coloring his tone. his ghost flits back into the neural net. “i– did you think i couldn’t tell? you’re right there! you’re not even hiding! you’re HUGE!

“so, so, what? what is it, then? do you think this is funny, or what? have you come here to amuse yourself over me trying to puzzle things out? to gloat about what you did to me again? what?” angry tears prick at theo’s vision. he blinks them out of the way. “come on! no use trying to pretend any more! i saw you lean closer, i saw you pull back, i know it’s you!”

[mantleoflight]

A Talk, A Trade, A Trick-deal Made || Pt 2 || Bumpin' Gums

Immaru hovered over the Witch Queen's shoulder, his shell still twitching with irritation. He wouldn't admit it, but the call had gotten to him and he was furious... and apprehensive.

"You know that guardian's never gonna deliver, right?" he asked turning to look at his risen. "The vanguard's never gonna listen to some over-hyped little new-light lookin' teh bring world peace through the power a' friendship." His shell jittered as he mocked the phrase with a disgusted scoff.

"Ah, but isn't that how they always do it?" the Witch Queen asked, raising a claw to calm her agitated ghost. "No guardian can do their best alone. We've seen that over and over again. That's their strength after all, besides the Light."

Immaru's shifting shell slowed a little as her claw ran along his longer spikes. "Which adds to my point," he replied grumpily. "That new-light thinks she can make a change, make the vanguard change their minds. I've seen her work. She takes prisoners, won't squish a ghost if she don't have to." He paused, his shell's gyration slowing to a stop. "It goes against the Sword logic, I know, but I don't know of any other guardian puttin' in that kind a' effort teh..." His voice trailed off as another conversation drifted into his thoughts.

"My little light," Savathun purred, lifting her hand to run her thumb along his shell. "As followers of Sword Logic, we have to accept the universal truth that to exist we all must prove our right to, ghost and risen alike."

Immaru elevated sharply, his eye fixed on Savathun. "So you mean to tell me you're okay with them other guardians just slaughterin' our crews, my crews, like that!?"

Savathun looked up at him patiently, watching his shell flick with rage. She didn't answer. He wouldn't hear it even if she did, so she waited until his shell slowed and his temper calmed. He was so angry, so indignant, yet he still didn't understand. She was sure he would eventually, but until then she had to be gentle. Ghosts were such fragile creatures after all, and though he'd never admit it, Immaru was no exception.

Slowly she lifted her hand, holding her palm up invitingly as her ghost drifted down to rest on it. "Immaru, we of the logic must understand that those who die deserve to die and those who live deserve to live. It's a right we must all strive for. From the lowliest thrall to the mightiest worm god, even to the Guardians themselves. Even those we love must prove their right to exist even if it puts them in danger."

"Does that mean you'd put me in danger to prove my right to exist?" he asked, turning his green-eyed gaze to hers.

"You prove your existence every day," she soothed gently, "as every light granted to the hive and guardians does. Living with us is no easy task with enemies always taking aim. Enduring what you go through is enough to hone anyone's edge."

Immaru chuffed and gave his shell horns a slight wiggle. He knew she was stroking his ego, reassuring him. But she'd never lied to him, so why start now? She was right though. Every day, them ghosts were putting their lives on the line for their light-bearers, and he'd do the same for her.

"Alright," he said, floating up with his composure regained. "So, what're we gonna do about this light-bearer?"

"Well, first we have to get her to agree to our terms," Savathun replied. "Once she does, it won't matter whether she delivers on her treaty with the vanguard or not. We'll have what we want."

"And what is it we're wantin' exactly from this little blue nose?" Immaru asked, drifting closer to his risen.

"To test a theory and see if I'm right." Savathun drifted down from the alter she had been working on, utilizing it less for its purpose and more as a desk. "After all, there are some things I want to finalize while the Guardians are still recuperating from our last excursion. And I may need your help to do it."

Immaru jittered, the air of a crooked smile drifting about his shell. "I'm all ears."

[infinitewarden]

Osiris isn’t Savathun.

Great! Now that I have your attention:

Man you guys tire me out about Osiris. If you truly believe this is Osiris I don’t mean to sound like That Guy that’s like “you don’t know what you’re talking about” but... You don’t know what you’re talking about.

So.

Let’s talk about how much Osiris cares about the City and humanity and why the Osiris in Epilogue is not actually Osiris.

Alright. Let’s start off with context. I think it’s super important to see what we do know as Osiris’s views. From my heavy analyses of him since 2020 I can confidently say these are what he views as the most important things a person can do:

Keep promises

Speak their truths

Protect the City & Humanity

Know that the Vex are true Evil.

Now, I won’t be doing a breakdown of each one individually but I will be talking a great deal of how important honesty is to Osiris, the City, and his views of the Vex.

Speaking honestly and bluntly.

I don’t know how many of you were into Destiny before Beyond Light, so if you were unaware of this it’s not your fault. However I’ve seen a very strange change in tone when it comes to how people view Osiris. Before Season of Hunt people hated - and I mean hated - Osiris. Why? Because he was blunt. They viewed his bluntness as rudeness.

To see a sudden switch to him being secretive and scheming is... alarming, to say the least. (And to see people think that this is the norm is also alarming but in other ways.)

The Osiris before Hunt was not secretive and scheming. He sought knowledge openly. He sought, specifically, the truth. I must stress just how open he was about his plans. First I’ll give you a few in lore examples:

I admit, I found your questions divisive and disloyal, and I feared you might be capable of breaking our unity when the City's position had grown so tenuous. Why divert attention away from the Traveler, our only hope? And then it got worse, dabbling in thanatonautics, Ahamkara-lore, chasing after Xur and the tricks of the Nine. Launching expeditions into the Reef and beyond at a time when ships were irreplaceable. Your quest split Guardians along ideological lines. This was your greatest crime: Hunters chose to pursue your visions instead of protecting refugees, Titans assembled teams to chase the legendary Vault of Glass instead of striking the Fallen, and Warlocks turned away from the study of the Traveler in favor of  your  ultimate obsession... learning the exact nature of the Darkness. ... Perhaps what drives a Warlock to madness is truth.

Osiris.

"Do not romanticize this burden. We wield a weapon." The Speaker shakes his head. "The Light wields you, Osiris. You are what you make of it. A glorious extension of its majesty, in many directions." Osiris paces at cadence with his words. "Then it would do well to speak clearly. To better direct me." The Speaker cocks his head. "Without will? Then it would be no better than the Darkness." "I am asking only for guidance; it is a delicate game we are playing." Osiris's voice, distressed. Regal again, the Speaker motions to the stone garden. "Will you sit with me?"

13: Margins Part II.

And, while I don’t particularly like using the Fall of Osiris comic as a source, it does have very important lines on his viewpoints that I find relevant yet.

Fall of Osiris #1.

Hell he was open about his plans to fuck with time itself to bring Saint back.

Sagira narrowed her eye at the rogue Lightbearer and lowered herself to Osiris’s shoulder. “Why’s he here?” she asked quietly. “I asked him to consult on the engineering work,” Osiris replied, crossing his arms. “You sicko,” the other man declared, walking a circle around the Warlock, his eyes darting along every surface of the Sundial around them. ... “Just one more question, then. Why all the fuss?” “I owe him.” “I owe a lotta people, Warlock. You’re opening the gates of hell with a Vex key.” “When the Traveler brought me back, I had no friends. No family—” “No one had anything in the Dark Age.” “But Saint was always there. And I saw him grow from neophyte to demigod.”

The Sundial.

"You haven't left the Forest in years," Ikora said to Osiris, the only one to address him directly. "I need help," Osiris replied. "I know," Ikora responded, hands clasped behind her back. She stared intently at her former mentor. Back in her Crucible days, that uncompromising gaze was often the last thing her opponents saw. Aunor glanced sidelong at her superior. Harper coughed and looked down at his datapad. "Two years ago, Guardians entered the Infinite Forest," Osiris continued. "They aided me in defeating the Axis Mind Panoptes, preventing a Vex apocalypse from befalling this system. "In the process," he looked between each of them in turn, "Some Guardians reported a body they found in the Forest depths." Ikora sighed. "Saint-14 never came back from that last mission to Mercury. We finally knew why. I reacted to it the only way I knew how."

Desperate Times.

“I do not understand all of this code. This is Geppetto’s specialty,” Saint-14 says while standing bent over a wide desk covered in data tablets. Holographic images of the Lighthouse shimmer in the Hangar lights. “We could use the Crucible right now. Your trials. This will be very helpful. You mean to stay, yes?” “I will. Long enough to show you how to implement the simulation; but tonight, I must disembark,” Osiris says. “So soon?” Osiris tenses his jaw in forced silence. He twiddles with code. “I’m worried about what Vance found.” Saint places a heavy hand on Osiris’s chest. “Let go of your obsession. Do not leave chasing phantoms again.” “Phantoms… You think the Darkness is satisfied? This is just the first move. I need to know the next before it’s made.” “If there is something you fear, let me help you. We face this together.” Osiris’s mind drifts to the Dark anomalies. Saint doesn’t need another burden. “The safest place for you is the Tower, Saint. Time... tends to renege on its gifts.” “So, your mission is dangerous?” Osiris considers lying. “Potentially.”

Immolant I.

There are many more sources I could list on his bluntness and honesty but there’s honestly too much. What is important to extrapolate from all of it is this:

OSIRIS SPOKE THE TRUTH NO MATTER IF IT GOT HIM IN TROUBLE. IT IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS HE GOT EXILED.

Protecting the City & Humanity

Idk where people get the idea that he’s abandoned the City and humanity. And I don’t understand where people think it’s “typical Osiris behavior” to choose to put the City in danger.

I want to make something very clear here:

Osiris was exiled. He did not abandon the City. And though others view him as abandoning it, that wasn’t his intention. He never intentionally abandoned it. Everything he did was in pursuit of a brighter future for humanity. Let’s look at one of his lines from the Sundial activity during Dawn.

“By the time I left the City, many believed my practices to be sacrilege. But my methods have prevented countless futures not unlike the one you walk now. When it is laid out before you, would you not sacrifice anything to see this future shut?”

The Sundial.

He left because he weighed his options and he saw that humanity would have better use of him if he left. He cares A great deal about the City. He cares almost too much about it. He would never give Lakshmi the technology to cause it harm, especially knowing that she’s unstable. And I’ve seen some people think he’s playing 5D chess? In what world would he ever choose to bring harm upon humanity for some sort of... agenda; which I’ve already cleared up earlier, he’s open about his plans.

Let’s look at more known lore about Osiris’s feelings of the City & humanity.

"You've wrapped your mind around an idea of your own making. I have always tolerated this fawning 'movement' of yours, but this is a step too far." Osiris seethed. Brother Vance was awestruck. He stared blankly at Osiris, unsure of what he could say to quell his anger and dissolve his frustration. "What I have discovered…" "…is dangerous enough to destroy every man, woman, and child in existence. You're meddling with forces outside your grasp," Osiris reprimanded. "I warn you here and now, remove yourself from this Lighthouse. Find a simple life. Start a family. Write music. Leave Mercury and this fool's errand behind."

Chapter 8: Idolatry.

Osiris was furious to find out Vance was experimenting in his name by endangering people for his goals. And he was especially mad that he would dive into such dangerous areas so much so that it had the potential to destroy humanity.

"It's truth." Osiris considers this. "Truth seems subjective these days," Osiris says, finally observing his entourage for the first time. Among them, a small group of men and women, stand two wayward Guardians—Warlocks, it appears—and a child. Their forlorn faces resonate with him. Castaways and believers. The weeks since his departure from the Last City have worn on him. He was used to working alone, knowing he could fall back to the City's resources should he need them. Now, adrift in the expanse of purpose, he finds himself longing for a place he could return to. A sanctuary.

Chapter 2: Postexilic.

Here’s a few lines from Season of Dawn:

“The Traveler, mutilated. Mercury, a desolate warzone. This is the bleak future the Cabal wants for us all. We do not know what has become of humanity here. I hope we will not find out.”

.

“There are many terrible futures, but I have not grown numb to seeing them. The future the Cabal wish for is a nightmare for humanity.”

.

“If the Traveler fled the system, there is a chance that the Darkness would ignore our region of the galaxy entirely. It would sacrifice our second awakening, our ability to wield the Light, but potentially continue our Golden Age. There are too many variables at risk, but it's a variant path worth investigating in the Infinite Forest.”

.

“This battered Mercury is a blueprint for our system. Lightless, bowed, and nothing more than fuel for an endless war. It must never come to pass.”

The Sundial.

There are many. Many. More lines I could put here about how much Osiris doesn’t want to see humanity suffering. And especially how he doesn’t want the City to be at risk. But I think you get the picture.

Know that the Vex are true Evil.

So. We all know Osiris as “the Vex guy.” His whole thing is on fighting the Vex. However it seems people think that he’d be okay with using them for grounds of a higher purpose? Or something? I don’t know, everyone I see rebuffing Osiris’s actions with Lakshmi don’t seem to be interested in explaining this one.

So anyways. Let’s talk about how Osiris views the Vex as true evil compared to other species.

“The Fallen are not so different from us. How hard would you fight if the Light were taken from you?” “Those stories ring false to me,” said Saint. “They are not a noble people. I’ve fought them, and so have you.” “I have not fought them all,” the Warlock replied, pulling his hands apart to create an intricate web of hovering cubes and points of light. “They are nothing, no threat—not like the Vex. Not like the Darkness.”

Vanguard Commander.

[u.2:06] Have you spoken to the House of Light, like I asked? [u.1:07] I would rather not speak with Fallen. [u.2:07] They may need our help. Their cause is just. [u.1:08] What happened to “trust no one?” [u.2:08] What happened to your sense of right and wrong, hero?

Maintenance Operations Log 30037.

The unenlightened wonder at my so-called "fixation" upon the Vex. They believe our gravest existential threat is the Hive, for those beings have made a pact with the Darkness itself via the medium of the Worm Gods (according to Toland, at least, and I see no reason to doubt him in this). But Darkness is not merely absence of Light. Darkness is an entity unto itself. Put simply, Darkness is not Nothing. But the Vex? The Vex seek neither Light nor Darkness. They seek Convergence, the reduction of all life to its simplest, most meaningless form. An entelechy of zeros and ones. "Evil" is a word for sentimentalists and fools. But, in the ontology of the sentimental, the Vex are more deserving of the term than the Hive. Given a choice between Darkness and Convergence, I would choose Darkness. It is a logical choice. Yet for this they banish me.

Kairos Function (Hunter).

This one is important because Osiris doesn’t subscribe to the idea of “good” and “evil”, and that he would go so far to say that the Vex are Evil shows just how much of a threat he views them as.

It’s just. Mind boggling to me that people think that Osiris would be okay with a Vex invasion. That Osiris would encourage Lakshmi to open up a rift to “send the Fallen away” (Despite being one of the earliest sympathizers!) Osiris isn’t ineffable, he’s just a man trying to do his best to help humanity. His actions aren’t difficult to understand, they have been written to be very clear and with understanding his motives.

Saying that it’s natural for him to be secretive and have contradicting opinions and actions is just. Wrong. It’s not him. It’s not how he’s supposed to be understood. Even in Curse of Osiris I don’t think his actions didn’t make any sense.

This is going to sound very mean but I want to be 100% clear: If you think that Osiris would actively choose to put the City in danger of the Vex, if you think that he would actively choose to stand calmly and watch as his lover was about to die to the very things he spent millions of lives to save... You don’t understand Osiris. Go back and reread his lore.

I leave you with this:

The Vanguard is dubious of our intent and ability, fearing corruption and displacement. They do not trust me. You were held in similar contempt for speaking your truth and empowering free thought. You know what it feels like to be chastised and labeled a traitor. We are mere steps away from a disintegration of our institutions, and they cannot see destruction staring them in the face. ... For so long, we have clung to the Light, denying the strength offered by the Dark. By using Stasis, we will end this war. We see this contest for what it truly is: a game, played by our adversaries. And we have been the pawns. We are pawns no more. This is not a battle I want to wage without you, although we may not have a choice in the matter. Wherever you may be, please come back to us.

To Osiris.

[lepiidopterophobia]

green eyes close as the last words escape osiris, and she knows what will follow. gentle fingers lift, to try to stop the ghost's rage before it bubble over-- but it is too late. immaru trembles as he flits forward, free now of her affections.

"yeah, an' prove yourself a monster, just like the rest of 'em!" each word tastes of brimstone and ash. tastes of the dying starlight within every ghost. she can only stare at him, face unnaturally soft with the give of terran flesh. "give me one reason not to finish what the avatar of war started."

"enough."

if immaru is brimstone and fire, savathun is the chill across ocean waters that eases the burn. the only step forward she takes now is to retrieve her ghost and bring him back to her bosom. there, she stops. there, she stills, and gives the elder warlock his space. no matter what he may think, she is not here to torment.

she cannot do to him as nezarec will. that is not her domain.

“i protected you from my sister. tell me, o guardian mine, do you know what that means from someone like me?” fingertips brush across that still-trembling bone shell. "to go against the one i love the most, to cradle her target to my chest and wrap you in my finest silk... if my plan was a knife to xivu arath's very back, then your survival was the twist that left her screaming."

his shivers calm beneath her hands, but still the witch queen does not release her little light. not yet.

"i will grant that you took it from me. yes. yes, that is so..." a soft noise escapes, something almost a chuckle. a laugh, even. but so quiet it could have been a scoff. "but no matter if given or taken, you found the veil. you rushed to protect it. you are the only one who knew the light of truth, even as so many attempted to keep you in the dark."

her voice quiets, becoming dark and hard,

"the witness is here. and you are correct. i am afraid. you should be, too."

Something mean and ugly rises up when he sees Immaru. Here she stands, the source of all his recent grief. She took any unsteady trust the Vanguard had in him away. Any comfort Ikora once held in him; she sees him as a broken man. Any and every future relationship marred by what Savathun did, posing as him. And the Traveler looked beyond all of that and said she was worthy of a Ghost while he was left to pick up the pieces of Sagira's loss.

It's hard not to be mad at the Traveler for that.

It's easy to be mad at Savathun.

He takes a step back where she takes a step forward. Cloying words meant to soothe do nothing of the sort, and for a moment he's reminded of the Speaker's honeyed words borne out of denial. They bring him no comfort, each word like a brick in his stomach. His eyes land on the exit behind her, he could run. Find a way around. Escape. Osiris is not one who chases vengeance and he is not one to hold grudges, but for her he'll make an exception. He looks back at her and feels his chest tighten.

" I took, " he says, fury barely hidden. " Save me your theatrics, I've seen your mind just as you saw mine. You were scared, so I took what I needed. You weren't doing it for my sake, if you had done so you would have left me alone. "

Nearly two years she trapped him within his mind and now she comes crawling back acting like she'd done him a favor.

His hands still shake.

" Had I my Light I would turn you to ash where you stand. " It's a feeble threat and he knows it.

[avatarofwar]

do you have any thoughts on your xivu-sav alliance with post wq assuming you've done it?? I found your og post interesting and would like to know if there's ant further proof you've found :o

Putting it beneath a read more for obvious wq spoilers

I believe that either the alliance has served its purpose, or Savathun possessing the Light was something unaccounted for. I will be assuming the latter.

With Savathun claiming the Light and forgetting her past, combined with her Throne World being filled with Guardians, for reasons outside of either's control it's essentially called off for now. Savathun forgetting her past would mean (up until the later end of the campaign) she would not remember the alliance, and with her Throne World being full of Guardians Xivu Arath cannot remind her of it without risking Guardians finding out which would further jepordize their alliance (especially with the Young Wolf actively pursuing Savathun). And with Savathun being currently dead it is even more on hold.

This isn't to say that it couldn't still exist in the future, but due to current circumstances it doesn't exist at this moment.

I will also point to Tusked Allegiance helmet lore, specifically Xivu Arath's "SING OF HER LIES. SPEAK OF HER TRUTHS." line.

Xivu Arath is not angry at her sister. She doesn't view Savathun possessing the Light as some heresy. She simply wants to know everything that Savathun knows, whether it be a lie or truth. She cannot gain this knowledge from her sister, due to everything going on in her Throne World, so she uses Sok'tol to do so. If she opposed her sister due to her actions, there would be no point in knowing what she knows.

[roughlytwentytwofrogs]

This is a little lore rant about the witch queen campaign (ie the two lies two truths) because my brain is braining about it, so if you're not interested, feel free to scroll past. And if you are, I'd love to get some opinions or theories from other perspectives!

Anyways let's get it on. So basically, Savathun gave us 4 sentences, two of which are lies and two of which are truths, blah blah, we all played the quest. Now the fun part is theorising about which ones are the truths:

The first one is Mercury, Io and Titan are in my (Savathun's) care.

Imma be honest, i have the feeling this one is a lie. I haven't found any lore supporting that, besides what she tells us afterwards, but Savathun's actions always have a point behind them, a reason for it and i don't see how having 3 planets in her back pockets helps any of her schemes. Maybe to prove to the Traveler she can protect her? But even then, that's a stretch. I could definitely be wrong, though.

The second one i have more thoughts about, ie "The Witness returned Mars to your solar system."

Now, that sounds like a lie, and here's why: Savathun is the Goddess of lies, and we've had a few encounters and riddles with her already. The fact that she states the Witness' name like that, and makes the statement so plainly makes me think that this isn't true, and it's just a misled conclusion to what happened.

To explain: We know that Mars disappeared a while ago. We know that it returned to the solar system at the start of the dlc. We know that the voice in the Darkness, the one that talked to us is called the Witness. Those three are observations. Now the assumptions we made were 1. Mars (&co) were taken by the Darkness and 2. That it gave it back or was forced by Savathun to do so, since her ship is on Mars. That is exactly why i feel like it's a lie, because it feels like a truth to someone who takes what we've been told at face value. Very meta, i know, but bear with me, okay? This whole game's lore is from the perspective of our guardian, most of the time facts change with experience as we learn new things and perpectives (best example: Darkness bad -> nah it's the Witness that's a dick, the Darkness is just a force as neutral as the Light). It's Savathun, everything she says has an underlying meaning.

But if that one is a lie, we could possibly tie it to the first one, which would be a truth then? Not exclusively, obv, but food for thoughts.

The third one is also pretty interesting: The power to move worlds will soon be yours.

Now, that statement is vague as fuck. It could have so many meanings. At first, i thought about deepsight, and how we can change our surroundings with it. Then, i thought about how Mars returned, and if that meant that maybe, if this is a truth, we might be the one returning the other 3 planets? Because if you look closely to the first two, the three planets are in Savvy's care, which means we could access them as we beat her, by learning her secrets, and second, returned mars to our solar system means it was somewhere else (obviously lol), but as in possibly another solar system instead of another dimension like the ascendant plane? Once again, theories n speculation but the wording is too weird to not make my brain brain.

So, deepsight? Moving planets? Maybe another subclass or gift from the Darkness? Or just a lure to our ego to hide a lie? I have no precice feelings towards this one, it could be a truth and it could be a lie.

And the fourth one, the objectively most interesting one: The Taken King will rise again.

Now, thats a cool one. Immediately, you think it looks like a blatant lie, lol, he's dead. Then you remember this is Savathun, and what sounds like lies in her mouth might as well be truths to mislead us. Then you think Oryx comeback. But there's so many ways this could be taken, imma separate them all.

1. Just blatant truth, Oryx will come back as a foe. We know Nokris dabbed in necromancy, and that the Hive on the moon was interested in that as well. But I doubt it, I don't really know why but i feel like it's too obvious to be true.

2. Just blatant truth pt. 2 but wild ass theory this time, Oryx will be rezzed like Savathun. Okay i know this is reaching but hear me out: Oryx is a great fighter, and the Traveler needs champions to fight the Witness' flotilla. Immaru isn't dead, and i know he'll come back at some point. I don't really believe in it, but at the same time, it's hard not to find 2 when you add 1 and 1.

3. This isn't about Oryx, but about the title of Taken King. Either we'll get a brand new foe who'll take the role as the Taken King, or one we already know about: Xivu Arath. She is taking control over the Takens since a few seasons ago, we know that, so she might rise up as Taken King and start taking again? She is the last sibling alive, and we now know the Witness is searching for disciples that are the most perfect and last individuals of a species, hence Rhulk, but also hence his interest in us. We are a 7yo Guardian already accomplishing incredible shit, we're canonly more powerful than the average guardian, and we've been called a few times the Traveler's last argument, which makes the Guardian p unique. Back to the theory, Xivu Arath is the last Hive God. It's not a big leap to think she can take the title of her brother.

4. A little wild one, but maybe a hint at a new subclass? I've seen people theorize Taken could become a future Darkness subclass, like Stasis. I haven't thought this one through enough to believe it though.

5. It's a lie and it's made to look like a blatant lie to make us theorise like crazy that because it's Savathun that said it, it has to have an underlining meaning.

6. It's a funny hint at the Raid coming back later in this expansion, but afaik it's like VoG and has no story implications.

Anyways, that's about it for my thoughts, so what do yall think? This is obviously just about the first round of 2l2t that Savvy has given us, and we know there's a few more that change every week? or so, but it's already good enough. Don't hesitate to send me your thoughts and theories, either on this post or in my askbox, I'd love to hear them all!

[xivu-arath]

Wanted to hear your thoughts on the possibility of Mara's literary or narrative parallel actually being Xivu instead of Savathun. It's kind of a half formed idea from stuff I've been catching up on but Xivu and Mara seem similar when it comes to...I guess intent than Savathun to Mara. Possibly, Mara being close to what Xivu would act like if she was the eldest of her siblings.

yeah I've thought this was an interesting shift in perspective now that we have savathun and mara actually in the same place! (and apologies in advance, this is going to be a bit of a ramble about everyone involved before I get to the meat of your actual inquiry). also it should go without saying, but this post is not the place to get into mara's morality or what she did wrong or right or Who Is Worse - we're here to talk about character comparisons in how they think and act!

you'd think they'd lean on those parallels (and one of the seasonal lore entries certainly does, in a very weaponized way) but savathun also brings it up of her own volition, which was certainly... a Choice

I think this is because she's certainly aware of those parallels herself, and wants to draw attention away from them. right now she's the target of so much well-deserved hate and anger, and it's to her benefit to seem vulnerable and ambiguously benevolent. if she can also undermine mara's authority or (already somewhat muddied) character to us by comparing her to her ferocious and clearly threatening sister, then... well, that's a clever blow to strike, isn't it? especially to people who are likely to care about crow and might be resentful already

but I think it goes deeper than that. I've spoken in my analysis of xivu that I believe the hive gods make up for their deliberately flattened and streamlined emotions by drawing comparisons to their experiences and memories, as well as important bonds, because otherwise their frame of reference for much of the universe is so horrifically skewed that savathun wouldn't be able to get anywhere with her manipulations. her ideas of how people are motivated just wouldn't work. sure, she's definitely dissing mara and likely trying to ensure the guardian doesn't see her in a fond light - but there's likely a grain of truth in it regardless

mara acts like savathun does, and does prize the same things she does - secrets, encryptions, security. but in season of the lost we're seeing her in a much more personal context in-game for the first time, and there... yes, they do seem to act similarly forcefully when it comes to pursuing people who are trying to keep their distance. another astral alignment dialogue notes that xivu arath's relentless attacks seem obsessive and extremely personal, and mara's interest in crow as well as her reflections on uldren are... singleminded. most notably, savathun is entirely correct that neither of them can let go of the past right now

however, I think there's a few key differences here. xivu has always been quite close to her siblings, and makes the active choice to part ways with oryx and savathun to grow her strength on her own. mara and uldren's relationship was always defined by distance, which she mourns in rare moments when she knows she's going to die and leave him in one of her lorebooks, but her control of him is extremely hands-off until he's no longer in her orbit. then she suddenly needs to regain his attention and devotion, which is a very common unbalanced family dynamic. the hive siblings are, of course, also extremely unhealthy in their Everything, but to me, xivu's intent to reach savathun is more to get an explanation and demand a return to the way things were or be back on equal ground than to wrest back control specifically. it'll still be an extremely destructive meeting, which is why savathun wants to make sure it happens after her worm is out and Things Get Real

(I'm also tagging in @synnthamonsugar, who has made posts about her own thoughts on savathun's plan here and its echoes of trying to escape an unhealthy family dynamic, which sort of attaches on to this whole topic)

I feel as a whole their motivations and goals are too different to really work as complete narrative foils. but if it continues this way for family alone (at least until we have confirmed lore for how either savathun or xivu feel about their family! bungie! please!!!) then that works out quite well

I could see an older xivu, or even if she'd been from an earlier brood entirely and was used to being the protector of the other two, would be more focused on controlling and herding them, and be more inclined to be a more... forceful variation of mara, forbidding and stifling by shutting off choices or going first

I hope this covers everything you were interested in, anon!

[titanicfreija]

"Tell me more about these Warlocks."

"Alright, Warlocks are the floaty ones. Ikora is one, and most of the other ones... Oh wow, okay, so most of the famous Warlocks I know are really bad examples of guardians. About half were bad people."

"This does not, in any way, please me to hear."

"Nope! Okay, so, Ikora is and Osiris used to be, and Warlocks are "the smart ones", except some of them take the smart right on over to testing reality and forcing dimensional shifts and overall messing with stuff that has turned at least two of them that I know about right now into conscious non-human, non-physical entities that may or may not be even more immortal than usual and is definitely crossing some interdimensional lines."

"Your Eris was a Warlock?"

"No, actually, she's a Hunter who had access to the journal of one of the previously mentioned mad ones. And extremely bad luck."

"Hmph."

"But those are extremes. Your average one, Tower-dweller with virtually no real armor, they aren't like that. They're rumored to be lofty, dreamy, spacey, arrogant and uptight, dry, kill-joys, nerdy, chaste..."

"I cannot relate this to anything with which I am familiar."

"Scholars and scribes?"

"Vaalra. Bookish. Dry is a good word."

"Yes!"

"Ours were also warriors."

"So are the Warlocks."

"How much of their work is dedicated to technology?"

"Depends on the warlock."

"Ours are largely dedicated to history and technology."

"Ours can be technology, biology, history, math, chemistry..."

"These things are technology."

"I think that depends on if you use it to make stuff or just break it down to see how it works."

"Accepted distinction. Do the Warlocks have expected roles in combat?"

"Well, no? But yes? The stereotype is healer or other support. In truth, they have better capabilities with their Light in general, are better at calling on it and using it to greater effect, and this allows for deeper digging, but in a bunch of nichier things. So they can do anything really well if they push hard enough into it. The good ones in crucible are scary. Lightning fast, they'll skate right over your head with a fusion rifle, it'll take out our barricade and an ally with us. Fast and aggressive front line, cover fire from the back, healers and buffs in the heat, they can be real beasts."

"Can be?"

"Warlocks are born-- reborn-- at a distinct disadvantage with their power being so pressed into learning most effective use-- there's no backup, no substitute. Weapons work the same, but while a Titan can hold off the damage long enough to recover and Hunter can disengage, Warlocks need to be either preemptive or at least very good at planning ahead. Young ones die a lot. You have to get better at a fifty degree incline and hopefully you'll have a decent team to get you up on the way. Or at least this is what I've heard. So they're known to be the brains, for better and worse. Also clumsy, sometimes, because they're supposed to be graceful in the air, but landings and ledges can be rough. Bad shots which isn't true at all and in fact the solar ones can fly and shoot, I don't know where that came from."

"Do you know any?"

"Two are familiar-familiar, one is Freija's roommate, but he's a writer, a scribe. He's too busy wishing he was a Titan to be a Warlock. He's where I got most of that moping. They have a second warlock who is... Weird. She'll love this strand stuff, but she's kinda been on this kick with this thing we learned with Savathun and that mess. She's weird. That's another Warlock thing, actually, if you meet a particularly weird guardian, odds are high that it's a warlock. They just kinda seem to be off in their own world. She's not bad. Her ghost is also weird in a completely different way."

"Is Ikora 'weird'?"

"Ikora has written entire books, plural about circles."

"..."

"She's also why Shaxx is missing a horn, so."

"She bested the host of the crucible in the crucible?"

"With a shotgun."

"Hmph!"

~

Caiatl's Questions

"This Titan business is...?"

"Are you asking me what a Titan is or...?"

"There are three, I have noticed. You refer to yours as a Titan. Zavala is also a Titan. I rather like them, so far. There are also the smaller two, who are... Like Osiris, and...?"

"I think the only Hunter you'd know is Crow. Osiris... Having lost his Light, he probably doesn't count, except he is still totally a warlock. Like, you know the, starts talking way too fast and like you're supposed to know what he's talking about? Not every warlock does that, but everyone who does that is a warlock. Titans don't do the rambling thing, they just do the thing and then look at you like you should've known to do that. Hunters just... Vanish. And then you find them again later. With pieces of explosives."

"Hmph!"

"These are all jokes, of course. The classes are different, obviously, but everyone just kind of is who they are and whatever thing makes them that class is there, but if you sorted them into three rooms, you'd only kind of be able to pick out which room was whose by how many Hunters you can still see and exactly what kinda fighting was happening."

"We have these jokes. Weapons preferences are said to indicate personalities."

"We have that one, too, but they also lean into classes."

[savathuns-pyramidscheme]

Smoke and Retribution

-Tell me, would you be so forgiving if Crow carried more of Uldren with him? Would you still accept him?-

Peregrine-3 had not responded to this. Had not spoken thoughts she knew would only enrage the slighted Queen. Knife's edge as the situation was, and with Savathun listening always listening, what could her answer possibly offer?

Nobody seems to understand this, airing their grievances like nasty laundry on open channels, for any and all to hear. Lost all their damn sense.

There is so much Peregrine wants to say, and cannot. Not until Savathun is dealt with. Not until it's safe.

'Crow, I have something you need to hear. It's...not pleasant.'

'Mara, Petra, if you talk about him like he's the scum under your boots one more time I swear to Light I'll...'

'Osiris, I'm sorry...I'm so sorry I didn't see...'

'Crow... Uldren... It doesn't matter. Whoever he is, whoever he chooses to be, however he wants to be called, however he wants to behave, to believe, to... I have his back.'

Would I forgive him? Would I accept him?

The truth is the time for this introspection had long since passed. Peregrine had spent her years running as fast and as far as she could from the vision she'd witnessed in Mara's throneworld.

------------------

Uldren, risen?!

A hoax. A little twist of the knife in her wound from a Queen who can't even see her brother's victim as a person. Surely...

And if not... If it were true and that peacock had gotten a second lease on life then...what? He's not her responsibility. She's not the Hunter Vanguard, not mentor to every new light that shines.

If she just ignores it, it won't be an issue.

If she just ignores it, she won't have to think about the morality of it. Won't have to ponder culpability. Won't have to ask herself 'what would Cayde think?'. Nothing, he's dead. Cayde-6-feet-under doesn't get a say anymore, does he?

Uldren's got his Ghost, he'll be fine on his own. Not my problem.

Don't make him my problem.

------------------

Running had obviously done no good. For either of them.

She is the reason he exists in the first place, and she'd neglected her duty to him. And he'd paid. Paid so, so dearly for a sin that wasn't even his. The astronomical debt she owes him is one she will owe til the end of her days.

-Tell me, does Crow cling to you with the same blithe disregard that Uldren did with me?-

She's responsible for his wellbeing whether she wanted to be or not. And she does want to be, now that she knows him. Stubborn, snarky, sweet Crow. Wants to see him become himself, whatever that entails. Wants to guide Crow the way those journals guided Cayde...wants to see him be a good man.

She doesn't know whether or not that makes her just as bad as Mara.

Can I forgive him? My forgiveness is pretty moot, now, dontcha think?

Peregrine-3 speaks aloud to the quiet of her apartment, chuckling bitterly, alone. Even her Ghost is absent. "If Crow carried enough Uldren in him to matter, I'd probably be dead."

She regrets saying it as it leaves her mouth. The clock on the wall tisks tisks.

"I've gotta be better than this." Setting her coffee mug in the sink, she leans heavily on the cool marble countertop, grateful Nolan had gone out to his Ghost bookclub for the evening. Perry shrugs on her coat, grabs keys. Datapad in hand she types out a quick little note for her Ghost - {Heading to H.E.L.M. Need to work. No rush.}

The sooner we can get Sov's Techeuns, the sooner we can save Osiris. The sooner we can deal with Savathun. The sooner I can tell Crow the truth. And wait for the axe to fall

Evening blankets the Last City in a wistful, smoky haze of fog and streetlamp light. The Traveller presides over her trek to the interim Tower, its will an ever irritating enigma.

I'm doing the best I can, you know. I'm sorry if it isn't always enough.

I'm only human

That hasn't been true in ages, even before the Traveller picked her up, brushed her off, and tossed her into the fray.

It's become increasingly apparent to her over the years that she simply doesn't have the luxury of righteous fury. Zavala had tried and failed to impress that upon her, once, fists clenched and eyes simmering with hatred and grief. She hadn't appreciated the difficulty of that restraint at the time. She still feels justified in her actions, still feels the heat of glorious retribution in her metal-and-wire gut. Younger days, creeping through into the present, declaring their right to be felt.

The line is thin indeed.

Savathun had played them all for fools. Riven had puppeted masterfully both the Prince and the Wolf hunting him. A multilayer cake of wrongs and injustices far greater than the death of one man, and a pair of puppets who couldn't see it for the icing.

The matter was settled. Had to be settled. I'm sorry Cayde, that's as far as I can take it. It's done.There's no room for another Taniks.

The doors to the H.E.L.M's command room slide open. The room is quiet at this hour, save for the squeak of hatchlings up past bedtime in the adjacent hall. The Awoken guard nearby nods at her as she passes. Peregrine wonders idly if she's glad for the posting, far from the Dreaming City's curse.

Perry never uses the wartable. Scooching a disgruntled Frame out of the way, she logs into the terminal in an alcove, reviewing scout reports of Xivu Arath's force movements. It isn't an optimistic picture, but it never is really. She tries to wrap her head around the intricacies of the leylines, the reports on their condition written in near incomprehensible Techeun-speak.

A tap on her shoulder. She hadn't heard anyone approach. He's learning.

"Coffee?" Crow asks, offering a mug and peeking around her to read the screen. "I really don't know why you bother with this stuff; knowing the numbers won't change the fact we're gonna have to shoot them all anyway."

[It's a GOOD thing to be prepared, Crow.] Glint admonishes from his resting place on the top of Crow's head.

They're adorable

"I am prepared! I've got the Guardian and I've got you."

"Because we do the footwork." Perry elbows him softly in the ribs. "Wanna help me read through this shit?"

"Not even a little bit. Give me a sec, I'll grab some chairs."

As she watches him turn and jog over to the supply closet, Perry wants never wishes nothing more than a million nights like this. A million nights where his faith in her is justified. A million nights where he doesn't know how monumentally she's let him down, time and again.

She'll always have his back, but not his trust. She doesn't deserve it. Doesn't deserve him.

But that's a worry for tomorrow.