#sansan speculation

[agentrouka-blog]

Hello. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the idea that GRRM shut down Sansa/Sandor isn't accurate.

When you watch the interview, what GRRM did was express surprise that the ship, and the character of Sandor Clegane, had become so enormously popular. He made the comment during a time, many years ago, when it was the biggest ship in the ASOIAF fandom and most Sansa fans shipped it. If you weren't in the fandom at that time, it's probably hard to imagine how ubiquitous the ship was, but it WAS ubiquitous, and popular, to the point where GRRM expressed surprise over it. But he did not at any point shut it down.

In fact, he rather did the opposite. This next part of his answer is always ignored by haters of the ship, but after expressing his surprise, he went on to acknowledge that the show did "play with it a bit" and that "I did too, in the books." These quotes, in all their fullness and context, are easily found in online videos of the interview.

I'm not a fan of the ship. There are many reasons to hate it. I'm not arguing that it will be Sansa's endgame, either.

But I do believe in being honest and genuine and not putting words in GRRM's mouth to make him say what we want him to say. He has never, to this day, dismissed or shut down Sansa/Sandor.

There's indeed a video where he addresses it, and the very fact that he so openly addresses it... shuts it down as a genuine avenue of speculation, honestly.

He says he "played with it", but when you look at the page, what he has shown is the Hound sexually harrassing and later assaulting Sansa, and Sansa inventing a trauma-induced less terrifying reinterpretation of this event, turning his "song" rape-metaphor and the blade at her throat into "he took a song and a kiss".

That's not romantic. That's an adult creeping on a child. That IS a form of "playing with" a sexualized dynamic between these two characters. But. It's a one-sided "attraction" of an adult to a child, and he cannot stop emphasizing his surprise at how women are eating this up as "romantic", like none of that is contradictory in any way.

Like, no, he didn't say "They are definitely not getting together in the books", but it seems to me that many take the same view as the female interviewer who, in fact, contradicts GRRM himself by repeating how she thinks it's "fascinating" or "it has crossed her mind". The male interviewer interjects that the show played with that imagery, and GRRM agrees that so did he, but that doesn't mean he supports the intended reading as actually romantic. Like, the support there is not coming from the author but from the sansan-shipping female interviewer.

[daenystheedreamer]

you're being held at gunpoint to make one asoiaf ship you HATE canon. which one are you picking and why

sigh. god. im not picking any of The Cursed Jon Triumvirate (rya/sa/erys) because having any of them win would make their fans so annoying. i dislike sansan on the basis of like how its fans disregard sansa's agency but purely based on text i think it can be done well. any other old man x sansa ships are evil and i could not even hypothetically make them canon. lucemond.... well it would be funny. it would certainly be very funny and while the stans would become radioactive and possibly worse than the triumvirate i think it would be a train wreck that i wouldn't be able to look away from. i haaaaate any aegon (young griff) ship cos its all speculative and idk speculative stuff does nothing for me it can never be canon to me. arya x aegon or arianne x aegon.... like girl thats nothing. thats nothing.

god gun to my fucking head. god. gonna go with sansan even though its an old man sansa ship i can tolerate it.

[llikeaunicorn]

I unfortunately think that a 13 year old having a crush on a 9 year old is extremely bad. I think this mostly reflects on George having significant time issues both from the loss of the planned time jump and seemingly weirdness around age gaps. Most of the speculated or previously planned but axed Arya romances are just at best a bit age inappropriate (gendry, jon, fucking tyrion). I think this really does go to show the ways that girls, especially gnc girls, are adultified. I do think it reflects poorly on george, especially with the potential openness to sansan as a ship, the choice for 16 yo lyanna with adult rhaegar, 19 year old brienne with significantly older jaime, etc. But I think trying to point to any individual characters, assuming its not sansan levels of obviously bad dynamics, is a bit silly. Gendry isnt a pedo, he's a child written like a child, and I think its generally reasonable to just ignore George's canon ages or at least give +/-2 years wriggle room when it comes to shipping.

Ppl saying “Gendrya is weird bc of their massive age gap” and “ Gendry is too old for Arya” and some even going as far as claiming Gendry is a pedo like HELLOOO Gendry is younger than Dany in the book series. And she was 13/14 in agot so he must be around 12/13 in the first book while Arya was 9. 

Since he is from Kings landing, that means Robert must’ve already taken the city after Tywin and the Lannister gang sacked it. And imma give Bobby B some grace and say he must’ve been waiting for Ned to rescue Lyanna and bring her to him (plus he was still healing from his injuries too) so he stayed celibate for like three weeks or however long it took Ned to bring back the news that she died. Rip Lyanna stark. Anyway, I think after getting the news he would be too grief stricken to have done the nasty with anyone. And then he weds Cersei… so after that I think Bobby B cheated on Cersei and in the process conceived Gendry. And that would make sense because Brienne in AFFC says he sounds like a boy rather than a man which took place around two to three years after the first book.

My timeline for his age would be

12 in agot (and imma ignore the whole “shadow of a new beard” bc I think GRRM was on shrooms or whatever bc wtf bro he is a child)

13 in acok and asos

And he just turned 14 in affc

P.S. I will never forgive the show for making him so old and changing their dynamic to such extent that it ruined the ship for so many.

[thebluelemontree]

Hello! I love reading what you have to say about Sansan and I’ve been wondering in my head recently about where their relationship will be at the end of the series. Do you think it’s plausible that Sansa and Sandor could actually be romantically involved at the end of the series and live a happy ending? GRRM has too much set up to not have them cross paths again. Many people have thought of different ways their stories may connect at the end of series. (1/2)

Some say Sandor will save Sansa from fire, he will die for her, she will knight him, or that they may be romantically involved and I have no idea what GRRM may choose. Will Sansa be queen and she can just marry Sandor? Will she never live a high born life again and she and Sandor just live as commoners? I seriously don’t know what to expect and I wanted to know what you think would be the most realistic ending or the one you want. Sorry this got so long! (2/2

Lotta questions here.  No need to appologize.

Do you think it’s plausible that Sansa and Sandor could actually be romantically involved at the end of the series and live a happy ending?

Yes, oh yes; however, we still got a ways to go.  A lot can happen in two books.

GRRM has too much set up to not have them cross paths again.

Agreed.

Some say Sandor will save Sansa from fire, he will die for her, she will knight him, or that they may be romantically involved and I have no idea what GRRM may choose.

I think Sandor’s arc has had him facing fire by drawing him closer and closer to it all along, but not in an ultimately bad way.  I think it’s GRRM’s exposure therapy to bring him to a place of overcoming his trauma.  His helmet is singed by fire at the Blackwater battle => His arm is burned when he is judged by the BwB for his role in Mycah’s death, rendering him a helpless child, so he’s forced to relate to his victim => He WILLINGLY submits to being burned by the boiling wine so that he might live a little bit longer to help Arya get to her aunt in the Eyrie.  Then I have my speculations and theory concerning the Burned Men of the Vale, who ritually burn themselves to prove their strength and courage, as well as magic that notably feels like it’s burning.  Would he die for her?  Absolutely.  That much is certain.  I don’t think that means he needs to actually die to prove what we all already know is true; however, he could still die in other ways for other reasons.  I think we need to read Winds first to get an idea of what his role in the endgame will look like.  I try to keep my specific theories narrowly focused on the immediate future events in Winds rather than stray too far ahead.  There are just too many unknown factors.      

As for knighting, only a knight can make a knight.  I don’t know if it will be literally or metaphorically, but I think that role goes to Elder Brother, who was a knight in his former life.  Sansa did teach Sandor that true knighthood is about what you choose to do and what you stand for, not ceremony or title.  All knights are not secretly bad people, as Sandor likes to think.  That belief comes from the knighting of his biological older brother that caused his original trauma.  If he chooses to let go of all that and embrace knighthood after earning it through selfless and noble actions, I think it would be a profoundly emotional moment to have his replacement older brother, the one that healed his wounds and cared for him, do the knighting.  Like Dunk and the ambiguity surrounding official his knighting, it doesn’t matter if it’s recognized by the rest of the world.  Just that the people that care about him are there to witness his character come full circle with it.  That is totally appropriate for Sansa to witness his knighting and be his #1 cheerleader.

Will Sansa be queen and she can just marry Sandor?

If that were to happen, I think the Starks would first set him up with a title and some land as a reward for his service to their house.  Sort of like how Littlefinger smoothed the way to being able to marry Lysa Arryn by getting upjumped to Lord of Harrenhal.  I have doubts about Sansa being a literal queen, though.  A leader, advisor, and influencer definitely, and still a highborn lady no matter what.

Will she never live a high born life again and she and Sandor just live as commoners?

Only very temporarily.  I think they will have a brief moment where she’s still under the guise of Alayne Stone, and she’ll be able to express herself more confidently and freely.  That would be a good time to rehash things and act on some feelings.  Except then there will be the pull back to being Sansa Stark again, which will inevitably bring with it a lot of drama and conflict.  What about her marriage to Tyrion?  What about the regicide charge and the bounty on her head?  How will she explain her role in Littlefinger’s schemes?  I mean, if she publically reveals herself to be Sansa Stark she looks really suspect just being associated with LF all this time and with her aunt’s timely death.  How will she manage to win the Vale to her side?  Will she be pressured to marry someone else to secure that?  I do think Sandor will play a role in helping her reclaim her identity, but I think it will also be a double-edged sword for them for at least a while.  Duty vs. love, and all that. 

I seriously don’t know what to expect and I wanted to know what you think would be the most realistic ending or the one you want.         

I'm of the opinion that a happy ending as in they are together and have a family to carry on into the future is one realistic ending George could write.  I disagree with the idea that he thinks unhappy endings are just more realistic and that romance is always doomed.  Fuck, the man married his longtime girlfriend after having a failed marriage in the past.  Why would he, who finally got the girl he always wanted to be with, think this type of ending is dumb or unrealistic?  It’s his real life!  And I think even if a tragedy like a character death happened, it would not be because he’s out to punish romantic love or the reader for caring. I think, at the very worst, their final endgame would be both bitter and sweet, with still plenty of sweet.  Maybe they can’t be together openly as they wish, but they are still passionate and devoted to each other.  Maybe Sandor is killed in the final battle, but Sansa is pregnant.  But my money is on 100% sweet and an earned optimistic ending for them after a rough ride of more war and nearly dying with a post-Quiet Isle rehab Sandor, and a post-Littlefinger reclaimed Sansa Stark.                      

[janiedean]

@seethemflying I think Sansa is in the next bracket down of important characters (with Jaime). In the outline, they weren't named as one of the big five, but in the process of writing have grown more important. No way is Sansa's ending going to be anything like Show Sansa's, though (and same with Jaime tbh).

agreed but lemme take a second from cramming to rant about this because I honestly have An Issue

in the sense: I 100% agree that both jaime and sansa are next bracket/secondary main (speaking as someone whose top five is made by ppl who are either secondary main or tertiary main if they have a pov like.... I'm not gonna argue that theon is a main fiver bc he's in my top three) but like what I can't deal with is the following as in that the main five are the main five bc they have in between them all the main themes george wants to tackle + the main plot stuff except for the 'romance is my #1 sense of existing in the plot', as in:

jon is azor ahai + has the chosen one deconstruction trope going on + most likely has the 'I never wanted to be Important™/have a throne but I'll have to for duty' ending + identity arc ie if he's not jon snow first of his name i'm eating my hat

dany has the dragons + the targ ancestry deal + 'I thought I wanted to rule but actually I don't I just want to help ppl' storyline (which is the hill i'm dying on)

bran has the oH WAIT fisher king deconstruction going on + the magic™ storyline + he's most likely kitn + he's tied to uh the literal rebirth of the continent so + how to deal with disability storyline

arya has the I NEED TO REALIZE WHO I AM storyline + the learning to be yourself as a gnc woman storyline + revenge is shit storyline + I'll become a skilled assassin and choose not to act on it unless absolutely necessary storyline + trauma/ptsd storyline tied to losing your own identity

tyrion has the shakesperean hero thing going on as in I have to make peace with the fact that I killed my father/did mistakes + overcoming the societal issues/problems/the prejudice most ppl have for him that’s caused by his disability storyline + he's the only one of these five who doesn't have any magical stuff in his background/only has his brain to rely on + overcoming his family's legacy and making it better storyline

now: a bunch of other minor/secondary characters have all of this (I mean idk theon and jaime have identity + learning to deal with/overcoming societal scorn given by them being disabled/having become disabled in various ways + ptsd, brienne has the gnc woman thing etc) but like each single one of these characters only lacks the OH I HAVE A BIGASS GREAT ROMANCE WITH MY BACKGROUND (I mean gendry exists to be arya's LI but idt it's gonna be important in her future storyline the way it'll be in brienne's to say one).. which oh wait SANSA JAIME AND BRIENNE HAVE, because guess what that's the next secondary bracket where those three characters have it as a main part of the story which is exempt from the politics angle (bc none of them is tied to the iron trap by the plot no none of them jaime doesn't want it, brienne isn't a contender and sansa was supposed to be queen in the beginning so she's obviously not going to be that later no not even qitn that's gonna be bran) and here falls the entire shebang because what half of this fandom doesn't seem to get is that *drumroll* george's favorite angle to tackle when it comes to romance is... THAT EXTERNAL BEAUTY IS NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING AT IN PEOPLE AT THE END OF IT AND GUESS WHAT THAT'S THE MAIN POINT OF ALL OF THEM PLUS THE KNIGHTHOOD DECONSTRUCTION THING and with that I mean:

not counting that sansa's reaction to trauma is written to be specular and opposite to arya's as in arya tends to lose sight of herself/becomes someone else/resorts to violence to survive sansa never loses track of herself/her innate kindness which... is smth I wish dnd remembered, the thing is: sansa is presented in the beginning as 'i'm a twelve year old with all the issues with shallowness a 12yo brought up like me can have and everything I want from life is a good love story', which... guess what she's 100% going to get except

characters need to have an evolution, if sansa wants a handsome pretty guy who'll make her queen in the beginning and she has to realize joffrey was The Worst, do we really think her endgame is being queen of a handsome nice king when her entire schtick is liking songs about knights and wanting true love and someone gentle and brave blah blah? no, and that's exceedingly obvious when the text throws at you in the face that her only two actually viable choices for LI - sandor and tyrion - are.. guys who are either disfigured or disabled or traumatized or all three of them but are actually good people and she has to learn to see beyond looks, and no one else fits that bill period - sansa isn't getting with a pretty guy who'll make her queen, sansa will find love with a guy who's nowhere near pretty or handsome but will love her for who she is and that she will see the good behind the not-handsomeness dot and she'll prob go back north with him and be happy advising bran bc she learned stuff in court at most and I'm dying on that hill, bc again the entire point of her sl is having the nice good love story where she sees beyond external beauty which has been clear from page five of her first pov imvho

never mind that again she wants to be a queen in the beginning and then she realizes it's shit so why would she be one in the end? like not to be that asshole but george isn't exactly pro monarchy and it's obvious he's not going to paint it as an inherently positive thing

this attaches back to the fact that there's a whole knighthood deconstruction happening for which sansa has to realize that the gallant/true knights are not the ones who seem that/look like it/flaunt it around

which brings us to the fact that oh wait sandor and jaime in themselves are true knights in spite of the fact that sandor refuses to even consider himself one and jaime thinks he fucked it up and no one sees them as such

and that the truest knight in westeros who will get recognized as such is brienne

who doesn't look standard hot either

and has the love story with jaime right on page

and jaime also has the love story right on page where he has to realize he's into people that aren't c. especially brienne and so on which is what's happening right now like jb recognizing themselves as true knights™ is part of their whole thing like... it's... important

(this counting that san/san is beauty and the beast played straight with sansa as the beauty while jb is the same trope except reversed on itself five times because both j and b are both of them)

and this would also like make utter sense if oh, wait, jb weren't in the riverlands where sandor also is and if oh wait who has sworn a vow to find sansa like again I'm dying on the hill that brienne kills stoneheart, they go on the quiet isle to recover, sandor is like AH YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SANSA and sansa gets rescued in the vale by the only three true knights in these series including the one that's her actual love interest at least the way I see it and where do you think that's going to end yeah exactly

as in: she'll have the umpteenth proof that all the true knights in these books don't look like the songs and she'll get the one she wanted

(also brienne is way more like sansa than arya in personality so like... parallelism of two girls into romantic stuff getting with the guys they like? except that for b. it's relevant bc she's ugly and she gets with hot guy who's into her and for s. it's relevant bc she's hot and she goes with guy-everyone-considers-a-lost-cause showing that they're not exactly a lost cause)

like sansa is there to a) have half of the main love story plot b) as the resident song expert witness what knighthood actually means, jaime is the resident person doing things for love and finding ways to do it that aren't toxic/finds someone who'll actually love him and not what he represents, brienne is the resident 'I never thought anyone would be into me and I'm pursuing my dreams without a shred of hope they'll go well' and she gets all of that and sandor is there to be sansa's LI and to tell ppl that you can go to rehab and have a decent life even if you were used and abused to hell and back (jaime too tbh) and like none of that has to do with the iron trap, the magic, the zombies and whatnot but it's okay because it's their point in the plot and is2g I just wish people would take characters for what they represent instead of shoehorning them into others's themes/stories just because it's what they want for them, the end

(I could rant about the third bracket of characters ie theon & co & getting over trauma/ptsd without the Love Story™ but I have to get back to study if I wanna fill some prompts later so it's not gonna happen for now but... sorry for the rant I'm just really tired of the whole sansastark will get the iron trap and the north and be the ymbq and get with a guy that looks good for her depending on what we ship not considering the overall reaching plot or her book plot and everyone else will have zero relevance in the story because we said so especially when it means giving all of that to a character who is uh not belonging to any of the categories represented by the main five which are actually kiiindaaaa relevant rep but I'mma just gonna shut up here)

[radiantsansastark-archive]

As if we needed any more evidence that The Hound is a bad man and should be no where near Sansa (we don’t) I think this one is a pretty glaring sign

“Grey Wind doesn't like her uncle either. He bares his teeth every time Ser Rolph comes near him."

A chill went through her. "Send Ser Rolph away. At once."

He frowned. "Should I have Grey Wind sniff all my knights? There might be others whose smell he mislikes."

"Any man Grey Wind mislikes is a man I do not want close to you. These wolves are more than wolves, Robb. You must know that. I think perhaps the gods sent them to us. Your father's gods, the old gods of the north. Five wolf pups, Robb, five for five Stark children."

A Storm Of Swords - Catelyn II

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her, his mouth twisted in a terrible mockery of a smile. "You are shaking, girl," he said, his voice rasping. "Do I frighten you so much?"

He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other. Still, Sansa wrenched away from him, and the Hound laughed, and Lady moved between them, rumbling a warning. Sansa dropped to her knees to wrap her arms around the wolf.

A Game Of Thrones - Sansa I

If Lady didn’t trust him, neither should we.

[shieldofrohan]

Remember when someone said there's a "contraversal" Sansa chapter in TWoW? Then they cleared it up by saying it's contraversal because Sandor isn't mentioned or something?? Could be because Brienne is going to save Sansa instead of him lol

Hello Anon,

Yeah I remember that dumb take. Well Brienne and Sansa will definetly meet in TWOW so yeah... I believe that Brienne might be the mystery knight in Vale Tourney or at least she will help Sansa during her journey up North.

Sandor’s part in Sansa’s and Arya’s stories are done if you ask me. The both Stark girls taught him a lesson (no he didn’t teach them a thing... he was just some bitter/pervert man who tried to break those girls’ ideals and dreams but they said fck you!). The best thing he can do now is dying for them or sth. I don’t care. I just don’t want him near little girls.

Thanks for the ask...

[bighound-littlebird]

[omgellendean]

Hi, awhile back you made a brief note on the 'suitors' of the Hand's Tourney and their significance to Sansa. Can you expand on this? Do you think Sandor winning (on a technicality) could foreshadow a SanSan romance especially considering that a Tyrell, Lannister, Baratheon and Ser Hugh (symbolizing Willas, Tyrion, Joff, and Harry) lost. Also, what could Gregor's involvement suggest? Thank you so much!

Thanks for the question, anon! 

Yeah, the Hand's tourney is really interesting. Sansa, being the Hand's daughter and the only girl to get a red rose from Loras Tyrell, is the closest to the Queen of Love and Beauty this tourney gets. It takes two chapters, Sansa II and Eddard VI, but out of all jousts, only four are really shown to readers. It's Sandor vs Renly and Gregor vs Hugh on the first day, then Sandor vs Jaime and Gregor vs Loras on the second. Three of the contestants belong to the houses that had matrimonial plans for Sansa: Baratheon, Lannister and Tyrell. Hugh of the Vale, basically a no-name, doesn't seem to fit in with them. But as an up-jumped squire using a coat of arms that doesn't belong to him, he is quite similar to another Sansa's suitor, Harry Hardyng.

What's even more interesting is that "suitors" riding against Sandor are much more successful than those who joust against Gregor. Sansa was engaged to a Baratheon and later married to a Lannister.  Both marriage and betrothal weren't really successful, though, which aligns nicely with "suitors" still losing. Them losing to Sandor also adds a bit of shippy undertones to the whole picture. Tyrells' plan to betroth Sansa to Willas never comes true (Loras was attacked by Gregor). Her engagement to Harry is not yet confirmed, and even if it happens, he still may die (Gregor killed Hugh).

Now, does all of that mean something, or is that a mere coincidence? Well, I don't know. It is pretty neat, and a sansan shipper in me would like to read this as the foreshadowing. Lbr, there are theories based on less in this fandom.

At the same time, I have doubts. We still haven't got TWoW, so we can't be sure Sansa won't marry Harry. I think he is doomed, but I'm not GRRM. Sandor won in both jousts, but Sansa married just Tyrion, so what does that give? I guess, if someone wants to try, they can tie the state of the losers' helmets to Sansa's marital status: Renly broke an antler on his helm — Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey; Jaime's helmet was ruined — Tyrion married Sansa. If losing means marriage, what does the death of the jouster mean? And, like, what is Gregor's role in this scheme? Will he too appear in Sansa's future? If anyone is going to base a theory on all this, they'll have to address these questions.

As you can see, I don't have much to add to that old post. Maybe it is a foreshadowing, maybe not. I hope it is, but who the hell knows what GRRM plans? Guess we'll have to wait for TWoW and see. Sorry, if I disappointed you, anon, but thanks again for the question: I reread the tourney chapters, and Sansa's PoV is just adorable.

[kateofthecanals]

Is there a reasonable chance of Sansa ever reuniting with Sandor considering where they currently are in the books? I just read Alayne's preview chapter and it seems like the plot is heading in a completely different direction.

On the contrary, I think there are many and more ways for them to cross paths again! For starters, their current physical proximity to each other is very very close, with the Quiet Isle being just off the southern coast of the Vale in the Bay of Crabs. At the moment, Sansa’s charge is an extremely ill little boy, and the Quiet Isle just happens to have a dude who is known to perform medical miracles. So, there’s one possibility... Then there’s @thebluelemontree‘s theory that Sandor is already in the Vale... Or maybe Septon Meribald shows up to the Vale Tourney and drunkenly confides in Alayne that Sandor Clegane is hiding out at the QI and she makes the conscious decision to go find HIM... Then there’s the possibility that the Quiet Isle gets raided and Sandor has to escape and make his way to safety -- perhaps with the BwB again? Who just so happen to have captured 2 people actively searching for Sansa Stark? Or maybe it’s actually the BwB who raids the QI and they capture Sandor, and he has to work with Brienne and Jaime to escape and they eventually make their way to wherever Sansa ends up as well...

Honestly, the possibilities are endless, and I know which ever way George chooses to go, it will feel right!

[sly2o]

There's two battle of the Blackwater parallels I'm anticipating in the next episode

Podrick saving Tyrion's life from a would-be assassin sent by Cersei.

Sandor saying "fuck this" to the fire everywhere and going to fetch Sansa to help her get out of there.

[agentrouka-blog]

No I am genuinely worried because GRRM is a freak is the point! What I meant was, Im afraid *he* doesn’t find it as disgusting as many, (including myself!!) do. I fervently hope it won’t happen and I’m unhappy about the evidence I’ve seen. I apologize for not making myself clear /s*nsan ask

(post referenced)

Pray, on what do you base this assumption that he is a "freak" but the wishful thinking of those who want him to be?

I find the evidence laughable and contradictory to what GRRM has presented in the books, and it largely relies on overinflating the importance of the Hound as a character (as opposed to actual protagonist Sansa) and on utterly downplaying the depravity of his various actions. It's a failure to distinguish between depiction and authorial approval. Sansan truthers aren't alone in this, of course. There's the people who insist we're meant to view Dany-Drogo positively, or the Rhaegar-Lyanna fans who are certain we are meant to view a married adult father of two and a mid-teen girl as a romance, too. It's a big cosy group of people who hinge their theories on the fervent hope that GRRM really is writing "taboo" pulp romance between adult abusers and underage girls.

I have nothing against these ships as ships, and I do not seek out their fans or their content, I tag my critical posts so they can filter them and remain unbothered.

But I find canon speculation that hinges on "GRRM is a freak" to be insulting to the author and untrue to the source material and I will not have it on my blog.

[sanrionharbor-blog]

Thoughts on Sansa S8 Endgame

Speculations galore! Long post ahoy!

Let’s run through every possibility I can think of for the end of show-Sansa’s story (and yes, there will be many more possibilities besides these because GOT is layers upon layers, man, I’m still new to the fandom, and there’s probably a lot I’ve missed).

At the very least, let’s do this categorically.

Dead, Alive, or a Fate Worse Than Death?

1. I’d bet money that Sansa survives the whole dang thing

2. But if she does die…it could be A) Sacrifice to save Arya, Jon, and/or Bran, B) in a possible collapse of Winterfell, C) after ensuring the demise of Cersei or a similar threat, D) something worthy of a song

3. Crack Theory: Sansa Becomes the Night Queen?

Shipping...

1. Let’s start with the most popular ship: Jonsa. While I’m not personally a Jonsa fan, I neither hate it nor see it as a complete impossibility. And while I’m not personally a Jonerys fan, I neither hate it nor see it as a no-brainer. Jonsa makes sense practically (uniting Targ and Stark, North & South; they already trust one another; cousin marriage isn’t considered incest in-universe, etc.), though I’m not entirely convinced if the show goes this direction that it would be the most romantic ship ever. The best I see is that it has vibes similar to Ned/Cat when they were first married to one another; they didn’t love each other romantically at first, but it would come with time. As for political!Jon Theory making this ship possible, while I wouldn’t completely put it past the GOT universe to make Jon that cold, it honestly doesn’t jive with what I think is at the core of Jon: which is a hardscrabble sort of nobility, decency, honesty. I mean, if he was politcal!Jon, wouldn’t he have come up with a smoother way to handle Cersei in their first meeting? Anyhoot, the ship isn’t hateful. I think the biggest obstacles are the fact that, even though they are technically cousins, they were raised as brother and sister. You don’t just erase that. This is somewhat “remedied” by the fact that they were never close and Sansa pretty much treated him as a whole-lot-less-than-a-brother for most of their childhood. But GOT has never shown incestuous relationships (again, I don’t really consider historically based cousin relationships as incestuous, but it is a close family bond never-the-less) as a good thing. At all. The Targ’s went mad; Dany’s brother was creepy as fudge; UMM Jaime x Cersei dear Lord; Craster and his Merry Brood, etc. (But this mainly just spells doom for Jonerys, IMHO). So, as with anything in GOT--it’s possible, it’s also not possible, there’s undertones, but there’s undertones for the complete opposite thing happening, etc. Lastly, as for the “romantic framing” of S7, I think it falls under that same maybe/maybe-not. I LOVE Jon and Sansa’s dynamic, even if I don’t see it as romantic, even if does or does not end up romantic. It is certainly one thing: intimate. And the framing (forehead kiss, bittersweet reunion, worrying for one another’s safety) supports that at the very least. If they don’t end up romantically, Jon is the last real strong male relative that Sansa has. That’s not to diss Bran, but D&D have made him a remote magical old man stuck in a teenager’s body. In some ways, he’s dead to Sansa too (as Meera said, “You died in that cave.”). The poetry, the irony, is that the people Sansa had the most problems with in her family (Arya and Jon) are all that Sansa has left now (yes, yes, I love Bran, but again he’s acting more like a solo unit than a family unit at this point)--and she realizes how much they’ve always meant to her. Jon, and Arya for that matter, are different sides of Sansa, just as she is a different side for each of them. The parallels are lovely, and this ship could very well set sail.

2. My personal favorite: Sanrion (Sansa x Tyrion, Tyrion x Sansa, whatever the preferred parlance is). Yes, I’m biased, so this entry will be the longest--BUT, let’s remove my shipper goggles. This, to me, is just as possible as Jonsa. That is, I don’t see it as guaranteed at all, but there’s plenty to read from the text. Let’s get the trouble spots out of the way: 1) the build-up has been few and far in-between since S4 (though they did throw us a bone in S7). 2) the 50/50 chance of Tyrion dying in S8 (no, I’m not basing this on “leaks,” interviews, or what-not--I’m just using this as a baseline guess, given that this is GOT and given that Tyrion is at the center of a very dangerous web of relationships), 3) the show possibly not wanting to ask a twentysomething actress and a nearly 50-year-old actor to act out anything deliberately romantic (however, I don’t expect an on-screen ship to be anything but unconventionally romantic--I very much see it being done with subtle dialogue, color theory, ambiguous looks, an epilogue, etc), and 4) Tyrion may or may not be in love with Daenerys. None of these trouble spots spells doom for me. The greatest “doom” is simply Sansa ending up alone (thematically possible) or with someone else (also thematically possible). Let’s break down counter-points to the trouble spots, then I’ll list my reasons why this ship could sail. 1) Almost all relationships in GOT are troubled and/or unconventional, built up over one season, hidden underneath layers of symbolism, or suffer from the fact that one or both partners are either dead or seperated (by this same token, Sansa’s other popular ships, Jonsa and Sansan, also suffer the same dearth of “development” or copious screen time. Arguably, Jonsa’s foundations were mostly built over the later seasons), 2) yeah, Tyrion could die (and I would be heartbroken but not blindsided) or Tyrion could live (but I would bet money that Sansa lives through the whole thing), 3) the show already put them through the most awkward phase of their “relationship” (i.e., their wedding night, though it was toned down compared to the books) and they can still sell this relationship in any number of ways (again, dialogue, color theory, looks, just holding hands again geez Louise), 4) Tyrion’s “love” for Daenerys is incredibly debatable and may only be used as fuel for a soap opera plot that I really hope doesn’t happen, but even the director of the S7 finale said Tyrion’s main concern was political and Dinklage proposed the idea that Tyrion only “think he’s in love” with Dany, that what most people feel for Dany is awe (I’m neither a Dany fan or hater, but it’s hard to deny that she’s shocking, enthralling, powerful, attractive, a force, for lack of a better term). Now, on to the practical/thematical reasons why I think this ship would work. Let’s use letters for this, haha. A) Fairy Tale parallels/Turning Tropes Upside Down: It’s easy to read inversions of fairy tale archetypes into Sansa’s storyline, as that is what her character is naturally drawn to: songs, princesses, true love, beauty. So far in the story she has learned that looks can be deceiving; life is not a song (though I wouldn’t be surprised if GRRM turns this on its head again, and Sansa simply learns that all great tales involve sorrow and darkness as well as joy and light--i.e., bittersweet vs. simply sweet); people are not black and white (Tyrion shows her that the Lannisters aren’t necessarily all evil and Littlefinger shows her that allies, even someone who loved her mother, are not necessarily all good); etc. Just some of the fairy tales/tropes that play into Sansa’s personal storyline and the subtext of Sansa x Tyrion include: Beauty and the Beast, Psyche and Cupid, Hades and Persephone, The Princess in the Tower archetype, and many, many more (I’ll meta about it one of these days--and there are already many excellent posts under the Sansa tag that expound on these). B) The Queen Elizabeth Theory: So Sansa has parallels with two remarkable historical Queen Elizabeths: Elizabeth of York and Queen Elizabeth I.  Since this has been said by so many before, here’s a quote and link to the article as summary: “The show is based off the War of the Roses, the real-life family feud between the Lancasters and Yorks that ended with the two broods combining their houses. Since the storyline happening at the end of season seven is extremely similar to this moment in history, we can infer that GoT will follow that path...” Link  C) Character Actions Written Especially For the Show: Just to name a few: GRRM purposely changed a moment in the books to where Sansa hands Tyrion a cup instead of him having to crawl underneath a table to do so; Tyrion remains loyal to his wedding vows (and this is probably inspired by his trauma for having killed his father and lover as well) even when it was very possible that Sansa had left him high-and-dry and the marriage was, in Tyrion’s own words, a “sham marriage”; Sansa and Tyrion both stick up for one another’s character, etc., and D) Also, aren’t they technically married? :-p [There’s a lot more, but again, I’ll save that for a future meta]

3. Sansan: While there may end up being a slight possibility in the books, I don’t think show-Sansa and show-Sandor are heading in this direction. However, the same fairytale motifs play into play here: Beauty and the Beast, Hades and Persephone, etc. Also, bridge4 over on Youtube has a fabulous analysis of the “unKiss” over on his channel, which I think could pop up in some shape or form in S8. Here’s the  link

4. Sansa Alone: Also supports the Queen Elizabeth theory. Specifically, Elizabeth I “the Virgin Queen.” This would a different form of poetry/irony: Sansa, the one who wanted most to be a queen consort and be married to a handsome king and have babies, ends up as a queen (full-stop) but leverages her power as a single lady. Not my favorite ending for Sansa, as I’m Teh Unabashed Romantic, but it’s plausible, thematic, pragmatic. Only time will tell!

The Fate of the North, Night King, Direwolf Theorizing

Just spitballing various takes:

1. The war is “won” (as in mankind survives), but Winterfell or possibly the entire North is compromised. As in, perhaps they have to trade the North to the Winter King at the promise he won’t invade the rest of Westeros. Or Winterfell explodes, so the North and all of Westeros is saved but the Starks lose their home

2. The Starks deliberately blow up Winterfell, for any number of reasons. Perhaps a bunch of wights or what-nots ended up there. Perhaps the dead in the Crypts were resurrected, and this was the only way to neutralize that threat. Or something deeper and darker lurks in the Crypts, something worse than the Night King. In fact….

3. Maybe the true enemy ends up being something awoken within the Crypts of Winterfell, and the Night King is not what he seems….

4. The old gods play an unexpected role

5. The godswood is burned or ends up in splinters or is used to create a new throne (ending the age of iron, fire, blood and making this a “time for wolves”)

6. Sansa’s direwolf Lady is resurrected (of course, poor Lady is headless…) and manages to wound Cersei (if she gets her arse up north, which seems unlikely) before Cersei’s killed by whoever the heck the Valonquar is

7. Speaking of, could Ghost be the Valonquar? I mean, he was the runt, the littlest brother of the brood. Eh, dunno. I just don’t expect the Valonquar to be anything close to what we think he/she/it/them is.

8. I like the idea of parts of the ocean being permanently frozen over because of something the Night King does. Dunno why. I don’t think there’s any foreshadowing to that in the show; it just sounds cool, and represents a permanent consequence to the land. Because I do not expect there to be zero consequence for the landscape of Westeros itself. The Greyjoy’s are already kinda sorta doomed (with eunuch Theon being the last male of that line, unless Euron’s got a kid somewhere and he ends up surviving to take the throne and not be a dick about it), so it’d be a bit of tragic poetry if their islands, their seas were frozen and lifeless but thanks to their efforts the rest of Westeros is safe and their people will have to make a life on land

9. One or both remaining dragons are frozen for all timez

10. Sansa becomes Queen in the North or Queen of the Seven Kingdoms (is there really an in-between?)

Bonus

Lastly, here’s just an observation on an important part of Sansa’s storyline and character development: Arya Stark. I believe Sansa and Arya adopted different pieces of the original storylines in GRRM’s book proposal outline--not that I put much stock in the outline. Sansa was created, at first, to add tension to the Stark family. GRRM says he was surprised by Sansa’s developments; he also says he empathizes with whichever character he is currently writing, so I think he just naturally found things that he liked in Sansa that made her more than a complication device. Because his original vision included Arya as the sole Stark daughter, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sansa and Arya aren’t the result of this once singular character being developed into two very different ways. The archetypal Amazon Wild Child and the Princess in the Tower. Two sides of the same coin--or, in Ned’s words, Sansa is the sun to Arya’s moon and vice-versa. For this reason, I don’t put it past Sansa to continue developing her personal brand of Brave Northern Lady and Arya developing her personal brand of Brave Northern Lady. Because that is what they both are: brave, northern, ladies. Will Sansa find herself at the center of a love triangle? I really, really hope not, but at this point if it is gonna happen I find it much more likely with Sansa than with Arya.

[aerltarg]

@scyllaramshorne tbh there's too much hints at sansan and grrm's open favouritism towards them. he is one of her canonical suitors and, considering the narrative of unlearning that beauty = goodness & ugliness = evilness that sansa still goes through, i can see more sense in sansa ending up w him rather than any random guy who jumped out from nowhere. the same goes for the “knights = good” narrative where sansa gets rid of these delusions and is saved by the “not real knight” sandor who in fact despises them and doesn't swear any knighthood oaths out of principle. additionally, it would be an interesting narrative circle where sansa first refused sandor's offer of help to get her out of kl, her golden cage, in the end of acok (smth both sandor and she came to somewhat regret) but then would accept the similar offer to help her get out of another golden cage, the eyrie. (and the second time it would be even more poetic, imo. birds, eyrie, etc, etc, lol)

also i doubt that sansa will be willing to marry someone of not high enough birth even by the end of the series which is not a problem w sandor since she already knows him and already dreams abt him. she also doesn't wish to be wanted as someone's wife bc of her claim for once and if her husband is from northerners it will remain a possibility that she might be used as a pawn in the game (of winning starks' favour as the ruling house in the north) again. which is not a problem w sandor again bc he clearly doesn't give a fuck abt her claim.

though there are still too many possibilities ahead! it's just my personal stance on it given all the canon base we have this far. who knows, maybe w the more canon material (if we ever get the next book lmao) i will see evidence that can change my mind!

thinking again how names of direwolves given to them in the very beginning actually speak very loud abt starklings' arcs and even foreshadow them BUT re: stark sisters.

nymeria, huge female alpha leading hundreds of wolves, with no fear of men and hunting everything she sees fit, that got her name after the historical figure, the princess of her people, the leader and military commander, who fought to get a new home for them and succeeded in that, changed the laws of the lands she conquered to the better for women and left her daughters as heirs, who is remembered as a “warrior queen” and a “witch queen”.

and lady, a simple yet a sweet name given by the girl who was “a lady at three” herself, never misbehaved pup.

and dead too early.

i think it only adds up to the already rich leadership arc and foreshadowing of arya, her ties to northern politics plot and even her warging and skinchanging abilities if you remember the “witch queen” bit. after all, she's the only one who got separated from her direwolf so early on but still became a warg, so powerful that she has wolf dreams even from another continent.

and it opens some interesting speculations abt sansa's ending. currently she is in a very complicated and dangerous position. imo, there's no other purpose for her to be in the vale than to use the power she has (or the greater power she might have in future) for helping the north w food, possibly in the great war and considering the losses the north will endure during the upcoming war against the boltons and the set up inheritance crisis of the starks, when we are said multiple times how rich it is when it comes to food supplies. however, i don't think sansa will stay in the vale forever for multiple reasons, major of which are several obstacles in her way of becoming the lady of the eyrie. and now, looking at this direwolves names foreshadowing, i got persuaded even moreso that sansa won't become a lady of the castle, possibly she will give up the noble lady's position whatsoever. how exactly will it look like? i don't know though hope for the happiest outcome, e.g. sansa escaping w the help of sandor and settling for the simpler life w him.

it actually will be so poetic! arya who never hoped to be a queen will become the leader of her people because of her natural gift for this and important lessons she learnt, and sansa who craved the flashing luxury and glory of life of royalty and was so eager to conform to whatever standards southern lords might have for their wives will come to appreciate the simple life w man whom she judged first by his looks, smth she never thought abt before too.

it becomes double interesting if you consider there all the parallels arya shares w alysanne targaryen but especially these ones:

Alysanne Targaryen, the youngest child of King Aenys and Queen Alyssa, had been little known amongst the lords and ladies of the realm before then. Her childhood had been spent in the shadow of her brothers and her elder sister, Rhaena, and when she was spoken of at all it was as “the little maid” and “the other daughter.” She was little, this was true; slim and slight of frame, Alysanne was oft described as pretty but seldom as beautiful, though she was born of a house renowned for beauty. Her eyes were blue rather than purple, her hair a mass of honey-colored curls. No man ever questioned her wits. (Fire & Blood)

skinny, pretty, smart, but in the youth overshadowed by elder sister? sounds too familiar, isn't it? yet, it was alysanne who is forever remembered as the “good queen” and who also changed the laws of the lands she came to rule for the better, especially for women, just like nymeria of ny sar, and who wanted her eldest daughter (called, funnily enough, daenerys) to be the next ruler as the queen regnant. while her elder sister rhaena was never happy as a wife to kings or a lady wife to a lord.

tldr; arya and sansa will end up in positions they didn't expect but even moreso didn't expect such positions to make them happy.

[thebluelemontree]

What do you think about how GRRM feels about the Sansa/Sandor relationship. He stated multiple times that he does not understand why people find Sandor a romantic figure and why he is a popular character in the first place, and that he is surprised by the high amount of shipping. On the other hand I think it is obvious from other statements that the thinks the dynamic itself ( as in, written in the novels) is interesting to write. So what do you make of it?

I don’t ever think I’ve ever read where he said he didn’t understand why Sandor was a popular character in the first place?  He has no shortage of male fans too, so I don’t think that’s quite an accurate statement.  I guess we’re talking about this quote:

“I guess I don’t understand women, but I was definitely, you know, way back when, surprised by the number of women who reacted positively to characters like Theon and the Hound as dashing, romantic figures. The Sansan kind of thing took me by surprise, I must admit, and even more so the women who, and there are some, who really like Theon. So that surprised me.”

I bolded the “way back when,” because that will be relevant later.  Well, let’s also take this interview where he expresses surprise at the reaction of women to troubled, dark characters like Theon, Jaime, and Sandor.  Note the cheeky grin that comes up often as he’s speaking.  When he expounds upon it, he talks about the number and level of passion coming from those female fans reaching out to him through the years.  Then they talk about the show stoking those Sansan fires, and he responds, “oh sure, and I’ve played with it in the books” and “there’s something there, but it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.”  So, why would he be surprised some readers picked up what he intentionally put down?  Unless he means he’s surprised by the volume and intensity of the response from women so early on (which I think he is), long before he did more character development for those dark, troubled “villains.”  Consider where they both started in AGOT.  And not without having to run the ball into the endzone so to speak with any romantic relationship.  He probably thought he had to build it up more or sell it to the general readership more before he would get that kind of response.  Now re-read the quote above.  I don’t think it sounds dismissive and disapproving at all under that light.           

I don’t believe for one second this man is baffled or at a loss to explain why there was such a reaction from women.  He dream-casted Ron Perlman to play Sandor for his ability to act through prosthetics.  Now, you may not have had the viewing pleasure, but GRRM has writing credit on 14 episodes for a tv series called Beauty and the Beast where Ron Perlman played Vincent, the lion-faced romantic male lead.  The show was unabashedly sappy and centered around the romantic relationship between Vincent and Catherine, and boy did it ever have a female fandom.  He can write for a female audience, but he doesn’t get it?  Puh-leeze.  He’s already said B&tB is his favorite fairytale, so he definitely understands why the trope works and why people (women) respond to it.  I mean, he even tried to do the dark and dangerous warrior with sex-appeal straight up with Darkstar, but it didn’t really work because he comes off as a caricature whose most impressive act on-page is to maim a little girl and run away.       

I can’t even get into everything, but what I think is quite telling about what he feels for their relationship is in two pieces of art.  One is this fan art he posted on his official website.  Now keep in mind, this piece doesn’t depict anything that has happened in canon.  It’s a total “fan fiction” where it seems like Sandor is rescuing Sansa from something behind them, and they’re galloping through a forest on Stranger.  Why would he publically display something that he thought was nonsense and the wrong interpretation of his characters and their relationship?  He didn’t have to post this gift from a fan.  He just did because he wanted to and probably because he liked it that much.

The other is this original Blackwater piece displayed in his home.  It was art commissioned for the 2012 ASOIAF calendar.  The subject was George’s request.  You should read the artist’s interview, where he talks about George’s involvement in the process of creating it.  He says he used Jean Cocteau’s version of Beauty and the Beast as one of his inspirations, which is GRRM’s favorite film.  Now, this interpretation of the Blackwater is definitely more romanticized and dream-like over a more literal depiction of the character’s actions, like showing Sandor holding a knife to Sansa’s throat.  The latter wasn’t what George was after for his calendar.

Sansa’s expression isn’t even terror.  She actually looks kind of relaxed, but rapt with anticipation.  Red lips, full lashes, thick waves of hair.  It’s sexy.  There’s no other way to put it.  You can’t tell me this is supposed to be Sansa at twelve as she is in the actual scene.  This looks like an older teen or woman.  This looks nothing like how GRRM wrote the actual events in Sansa’s bedchamber, which were chaotic and terrifying, so...  why, George?  Why?  Because he liked the concept and wanted it that way.  Because he wanted art made to express something that is “true” regardless of its factuality, perhaps? I don’t know why else he would do that if it wasn’t faithful to his vision and his feelings in some way.         

 When he’s directly asked about the nature of their relationship and certain scenes, or the unkiss, he’s also refused to give any firm or straight answers.  Sometimes downright cryptic answers.  X, X, X, X.  He’s also doesn’t seem to be shy about giving a hard no when debunking some fan ideas when they are just dead wrong.  So I believe his evasiveness is not because something isn’t there, but any direct answer he gives might contain a potential spoiler.  Maybe it’s simply because he has a lot more story to tell, and he wants full control over how it is revealed to you.  That means waiting until we can actually read it, experience it as the characters do, and see it all unfold at GRRM’s pacing. We can all rest assured that every single one of these questions has an answer, one way or another.                           

[janiedean]

What do you think Sansa's endgame is?

- goes back north and stays there

- becomes regent for either bran or rickon whichever of the two inherits (could be either but at this point i’d lean towards bran) and when either comes of age she stays as counselor/occasionally goes on diplomatic missions for them after the kingdoms are split

- has the wedding of her dreams and gets her love story and my partisan self says post rehab sandor is there for a reason but again if it ends up being tyrion both choices are valid and plausible and has her children named after ned and robb and whoever else she wants to name them after as she should