#read in justin mcelroy voice

[icarus-suraki]

Before anything else, this is !!!NOT!!! a pro-AI post!!!

So I feel like there's some fundamental misunderstandings around here about How AI Image Generators Work. And I feel like you ought to know your enemy if you're going to stand against it. I keep seeing comments about "using my words" or "using my art" and I get it and I totally understand the principle, but you'll have a much better argument against the lack of credit and compensation if you know how these programs work. Again, this is not a pro-AI post. I'm also going to avoid anthropomorphizing these computer programs as best I can because that's not helpful either.

First, when an AI or neural network program generates an image, it is not a collage, it is not a cut-and-paste, and it is not a readymade.

The program has a database of images that have been collected (scraped). The program is then given input by humans to catalog the images, gradually building up the program so it can automatically catalogue the images. If a series of images are tagged as "dog" by human programmers, the AI is programmed to identify patterns within those images and the program comes to associate those patterns with the input 01000100 01101111 01100111 (or "dog" in English).

So what it spits out is more of an amalgamation of images based on the programmed associations. I've certainly heard rumors of artwork appearing that's very, very similar to someone's original work and I'm sort of suspicious about some of it. On the other hand, I have seen someone generate a really, really accurate copy of a photo of Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker. That probably took a lot of work and, really, is it worth it? I don't think so.

The issue of stylistic copying is a bigger problem than, hey, I can make this program copy a picture. There's a color printer in the next room over from me right now. I could make that program copy a picture too. Not impressed.

But remember that AI operates on pattern recognition. A distinct style or technique is a pattern and a computer can be programmed to identify that pattern. So AI can replicate at least some of the patterns/techniques in, for example, van Gogh. It's a pattern that the computer has identified and then human users respond with input like "Yes, that is the correct pattern," which helps that pattern identification persist.

The same kinds of patterns appear in, say, overall image layouts. I have seen tons and tons and tons of images online over the years that can boiled down to "small person in foreground with back to viewer; large object facing small person and viewer." A kid in front of a monster, a woman on a dock by the ocean, two people looking at a sunset; Midjourney can spit these things out for ages. It's another pattern. It's all about pattern recognition.

Okay. I have access to Midjourney, one of the bigger and more popular AI image generators out there. So I'm going to do some demonstrations.

Here is Yves Tanguy's 1943 painting Through Birds Through Fire But Not Through Glass:

Don't worry, I'm opted out, though I can guarantee copies of this image have already been scraped from elsewhere. I'm using this one because I happen to like Yves Tanguy's paintings and I was watching a YT documentary about his work recently.

So let's throw just the title as a prompt into Midjourney version 4: Through Birds Through Fire But Not Through Glass --v 4

And you get these kind of…YA novel covers. It's using a more literal interpretation of "birds" and "fire" and "glass" based on what patterns are associated with those tags. But some of the linguistic pattern may have also tapped into tags on, yes, YA novel covers. It's similar to that pattern. You could get "Through Birds and Fire" or "The House of Birds and Fire" out of that painting title. The program has recognized one or more patterns and is returning amalgamated results based on those patterns.

So let's do something a bit more complicated and add in the artist's name: Through Birds Through Fire But Not Through Glass Yves Tanguy --v 4

This time I added the artist's name. "Yves Tanguy" is connected to images in Midjourney's database. The Midjourney program has identified certain patterns in the artist's work: towers, gradient skies, unidentifiable biomorphic objects set in a vast landscape, certain preferences of light and shadow, a sense of the hyper-real in the surreal. I've also circled what look like signatures at the bottoms of the images--that's another pattern that the program has identified. You, a human, can look at these images and say, yeah, I see some similarities...kind of. Hilariously, Midjourney is still taking the words "fire" and "birds" fairly literally when the artist (and human brains) can understand the language quite differently.

So the issue isn't quite as simple "they're using my words" or "they're stealing my art" might sound. Because while both of these things are very true but it's going to be harder to point to part of an AI image and say "this right here is something I painted."

Because it's more like the AI can jack your style. It identifies your patterns and it replicates them based on what it has already been programmed to identify.

The complexity here makes arguments against AI a lot more difficult. It's more like the copyright infringement or plagiarism accusations that go to court and the arguments are about how "similar" this novel is to another novel or how "similar" the chord progressions are in one song versus another. And, as much as I love Zeppelin, they sure did rip off Spirit's song "Taurus."

So I hope you can forgive me for using Midjourney in this explanation. And I hope it can give you better arguments about why the current practices with AI are unethical. Just yelling "plagiarism!!" is good, but I hope this will give you more of an explanatory leg to stand on if someone argues against you.

At least AI images can't be copyrighted. We've got that going for us, which is nice. I guess.

[entity9silvergen]

Cliffhanger at the end of TAZ vs Dracula ep 5: the villain appears. how are the characters going to react? they wanna fight him so badly but you’re gonna have to wait. he’s so cool and scary.

Cliffhanger at the end of TAZ vs Dracula ep 6: the lady is itchy and she turned into a horse

[desire-mona]

just wanna share this email i sent to the mcelroy brothers for mbmbam. i doubt they read it on the show but apologies if they did, i actually stopped listening to them after this (not permanently, my mbmbam listening comes in waves)

real actual dream btw. later on in the dream i got hired at a sex shop and ran past justin and his children screaming that fact

[flashandthunder]

just got back from seeing a christmas carol panto and hey trav? there was a good amount of austin powers in this one

[perilegs]

i pass pretty much all the time but hm. ive heard interesting stuff from drunk ppl i know who dont know im trans

[utilitycaster]

@helimir replied to your post “sort of an offshoot of that post about video game...”:

That Justin McElroy quote is from the first TTAZZ!

​Thank you! I found a transcript and I want to highlight it actually for a bunch of reasons. It's here; start reading around from the point of "Travis: Justin what about Taako? I wanna know about Taako’s inception, creation, everything." for the full rundown. It covers both Justin talking through trying to avoid stereotypes with Taako and how his voice was not a joke, but also about how yeah, he can't play a character who looks like himself in a lot of games and he's not interested in playing some idealized skinny guy so he may as well play someone entirely different.

The interview is also I think a really fascinating look back into D&D thoughts of the era (2015-ish? I listened in 2017 and hadn't played more than one-shots yet) and different people's approach to character creation in general. For all I champion later TAZ seasons and think some are better stories I do think the commentary they had early on was top-notch.

[girlblocker]

jimmy Buffett dying is making me wonder if justin mcelroy is okay… remember the mbmbam bit where griffin reads aloud Justins spotify history in an increasingly distressed voice and it’s like 10 consecutive jimmy buffet songs

[feekins]

here are my thoughts and things and whatever translation weirdness I find as I re-read ch 5 of Trigun Maximum vol 6!

(NOTE: I'm reading the Dark Horse [physical] and the Overhaul [online] translations side-by-side)

I remember this chapter gets Heavy, so let's start with something silly - here after the title page:

(Dark Horse on left, Overhaul on right)

it's not a translation thing, but I had to include a comparison so you can see that it's not, like...weirdness involving image compression or quality or whatever - it rly does say BUNCH GRASS SALOON there, and that just. tickles me. so much. it's so cute! and exotic-sounding, I'd imagine, if you live where anything that's everything that's publically accessible is desert.

(Dark Horse on top, Overhaul on bottom)

now, getting into the 'meat' of this chapter, we have minor wording differences between translations for this all-important line. both make sense, but given the theme of this chapter (titled "Colorless Expression" in both translations), the Overhaul's wording choice is more fitting. das nuance, babey =u=

oh, another tiny thing that tickles me: when that kid tackles Vash, the Overhaul translates the name of the kid's 'attack' as "Flying Mid-air Crab Pinch" whereas Dark Horse calls it "Flying Volley Crab Pinch" - both very cute!

(Dark Horse on left, Overhaul on right)

reading the Dark Horse translation, this bit of conversation always confused me - and it's moments like this where the Overhaul's is just. SO helpful. domfock has spoken on some of the translation choices that're made to clarify who's talking, and it looks like the above is one case of that. this happens a couple more times throughout the chapter, and I appreciate each and every one 💕

...oh. that church scene. haha. hellooooo, teenage me's religious trauma;;;;;;,

FIRST: this bounty hunter's name is Justin, so in my head, he is forever voiced by Justin McElroy goofing around 🤣

SECOND: timeline stuff!!! we now know that this chapter takes place 10 years after Lost July (which happened in the year 0104), making the "current" date sometime in the year 0114 - 1 year after we see Meryl in Trigun Maximum vol 1 (on her birthday in February 0113), and 4 years after Jeneora Rock (which happened in October 0110)!

SILLY THING: the label on the bottle reads "RED ROCK" - which also happens to be an irl soda company. it was founded in Atlanta a year before Coca-Cola was. also they make yummy grape soda =u=

SAD THING: I didn't get the significance of this part when I first read it as a teenager. I wasn't raised around alcohol - I thought this bit was just Vash being A Silly Lil Guy. reading this as an Adult who only very very very very very rarely chooses to consume An Alcohol, partially bc I know way too many ppl who struggle with substance abuse/addiction (ALCOHOL IS A DRUG)...Vash. 🥺

it goes right along with the "Colorless Expression" thing...

*wounded animal sounds*

something about we the readers knowing Vash's power is what did The Thing but that Knives is what triggered itgxxjgxjgjxg

...oh, Overhaul. I hurt. using "people" thereby implying these townspeople don't even see Vash as a person... (you also gotta wonder - how many of these people were just in that church?) 🥲

then, there's an interesting difference in wording between the two translations after Milly asks Vash (in both translations) "How can you keep smiling like that?"

"look" VS "do" - it all comes down to nuance.

all Vash is trying to do is keep going... 😭

this post. just...all of this.

😭😭😭

[stellargay]

i read all of this in the mcelroy brothers voices and then was DELIGHTED that the first three guys in the comic literally look like justin, travis, and griffin respectively.

Not my white ass locked in the duke’s dungeon again because I fucked his favorite jester 😩

I didn’t know he was so territorial over the silly little guy 🙄

[bubonickitten]

anyway on a lighter note i need to find some way to evict this jock for snail mail bullying me 

[all-chickens-are-trans]

listening to bleachers while bleaching my hair. could I be more on brand??

[dajo42]

Lots of people in Manchester huh! Wow! Lots of human beings about the place! That's something! People! Persons! Place is fuckin' full to the brim with absolute FOLKS!

[pelmenifemme]

Gladly.

Below this read more is a brief history of Chuck Tingle as an author and persona and my theory for why he is, at least sometimes, Justin McElroy.

So, Chuck Tingle, as we all know, is a popular and talented author of esoteric erotica, such as “Pounded in the Butt by my Own Butt” or “Space Raptor Butt Invasion.” This second title was entered by a group of alt-right trolls to the Hugo Awards several years ago. Chuck Tingle took a stand against this group, saying it was the work of devils, and that he would send anti-harassment activist Zoe Quinn to accept the award on his behalf. When he lost, he published “Pounded in the Butt by my Hugo Award Loss.” He lost again later and published “Pounded in the Butt by my Second Hugo Award Nomination.” He made it to the finals both times.

Tingle’s work, also called “tinglers,” are largely accepted to be satire of the erotica genre and under a pseudonym. Despite this, Tingle maintains that his work is all genuine and he is a real person living in Billings, Montana with a son and daughter-in-law. He talks about his experience with autism and the call of the “lonesome train.”

Chuck has continued to be involved in leftist causes. He opposed JKR’s transphobia with his own magic story, “Trans Wizard Harriet Porber and the Bad Boy Parasaurolophus,” and the sequel, “Trans Wizard Harriet Porber and the Theater of Love,” both of which I own on paperback and are quite good. He also appeared in HBomberguy’s fundraiser for trans charity Mermaids.

Tingle puts out new works very quickly, but with a consistent style. So, I wouldn’t be surprised if one person does his writing, but a different one does his public appearances, which he makes with sunglasses and a pink bag over with head with his catchphrase, “Love Is Real.”

As I mentioned, both appear in the podcast Pounded in the Butt by my own Podcast, where Chuck refers to Justin McElroy as his “reverse twin.” This is a concept previously mentioned by Tingle and seems to be something like oneself from another universe. I believe this to be a nod to them being one and the same with the main piece of evidence being, plain and simple, they sound the same. Chuck Tingle simply sounds like Justin McElroy doing an accent.

In the link below is a video of Chuck Tingle in which his voice is clearly heard at 4:15.

This is just my opinion, but I also believe that Justin and Chuck appear to be roughly the same height and build as each other. I also think, as depicted in the images below, that they have pretty similar hands and skin-tone.

I say this, not to take away from the magic of Chuck Tingle, but to appreciate what must be an immense amount of work which goes into his excellent satire, both in writing and through the performance of his public appearances.

Linked below is Justin McElroy’s reading of “Slammed in the Butt by my Handsome Laundry Detergent Pod.”

Why does nobody talk about the fact that Justin McElroy is definitely Chuck Tingle? Like at least in appearances and recordings. This isn’t to say that Justin couldn’t write Tingle’s works, I just don’t know for a fact that he has.

But he sounds just like Justin McElroy and referred to him as his reverse twin in the podcast Pounded in the Butt by my Own Podcast.

[synthvs]

Are we sure mothman is a cryptid, and not, an angel

[tasertricks]

i love finding out what a writers ideal voice casting for a character is..like drrf was already great but has been improved tenfold now that i will read comics w him in them and hear griff newman's voice in my brain when i see his dialogue

[hookechoes]

justin mcelroy voice good news, i'm still angry!

-what the hell was up with absolutely no one in this book knowing that bisexuality existed. two of the main friend group fall in love with both men and women, this fact is discussed more than once in willem's case, and everyone is utterly confused. and not in a "haha, this a commentary on how society sees (or doesn't see) bisexual people" kind of way, just in a like "this is inexplicable, i guess, and has no label that i can come up with, but whatever! it is what it is!" kind of way.

-i had to keep reminding myself that the book is supposed to take place over a span of thirty-ish years, and still, every time the characters mentioned the age they had reached, i was shocked. no one ages at all in this book. no one grows or changes over time, the way a human grows and changes with experience and age. all of them are somehow frozen mentally at the ages they were when we first meet them (except, oddly, for JB, who is the singular dynamic character in the whole book). their voices and inner monologues don't change in tone or become tinged with age and it's jarring when you're reading something that sounds like a young woman's interpretation of a young man and then he says it's his fiftieth birthday.

-one of the most common complaints i've heard about this book is that it's sold on the friendship between four young men but then two of them (the two black characters, weirdly enough) basically drop out of existence after the first quarter of the book and it becomes about jude and by extension willem. and this criticism is absolutely correct. JB is at least an interesting character and he stands out whenever he is mentioned or briefly shows up again later, but malcolm is so aggressively nothing that when [redacted for spoilers], it kind of feels like no one noticed. and neither did i. his one identifiable character trait is that he's indecisive. and that's it!

-there's a story they tell near the end of the book about when jude and willem were living in their first place together in chinatown (when the book starts, they are moving into this place). they talk about having a bookshelf put in and painting it bright vermilion red. i read this and was surprised because i didn't know they were the kind of people who would think to paint their bookshelves at all, let alone such a vibrant color. which feels indicative of the way they are characterized, which is to say, they aren't. despite the fact that we spend far more time with jude and willem than with anyone else, they're still flat and lifeless and colorless.

-one thing that bothers me in books is talking about fake movies that the author made up. usually i can overlook it or kind of skim through that part because it's not a plot point, but in this book it is a plot point, several times, and we have to go through tedious paragraphs describing movies that do not exist. nothing is more boring to me than reading a movie synopsis for a fake movie. shut up. i hate you.

-the writing style. god, the writing style. here is the structure of a chapter: we are dropped into a scene at some point a few months later than the point at which the last chapter ended. we spend a page or two establishing where the characters are now. then for most of the remainder of the chapter, hanya drags us back through the months leading up to that point with a lot of past perfect tense, lots of "had"s, like way more than there needed to be. at some point we return to the present and the tense shift feels like a hard right turn with no seat belt. i do not mind a non-linear story; my favourite book of all time is IT by stephen king, for god's sake. it's not the fact of the non-linear writing but the unskilled repetition of it, feeling like i'm reading the same thing over and over and over.

-stop it with the "would"s! stop! "he'd say" x "he would do" y. how about this: instead of giving me this information that someone repeatedly did or said something in the past, what if you actually showed me some full scenes where he said or did those things?

-that postman "nickname" thing that i mentioned several days ago? yeah, that never comes up again.

-there is a bizarre, completely out of place scene near the end of this book where JB reaches over and kisses jude completely out of nowhere "because he looked so sad." first of all, one of the KEY things we're told about jude, over and over, is that he is very touchy about physical touch and can dodge a hug faster than a speeding bullet, so the fact that JB even managed to plant one on him really exposes hanya's authorial hand shoving them together like barbie dolls. but also, it's such a dumb fanficcy thing to happen, especially because IT'S NEVER BROUGHT UP AGAIN EVER. hanya was like, i'm going to ignore one of the basic tenets of jude's character so this scene can happen, and then the chapter ends and we forget all about it and it has no impact anyway! they go back to their scheduled weekly dinner, and although jude cancels on him at first, it's because he's canceling on everybody, not because one of his oldest friends just inexplicably assaulted him in precisely the way he is most traumatized. unfuckingfathomable. this was so weird.

-jude is a manipulative douchebag and i truly don't know why everyone is so fucking devoted to him.

anyway, that's all for now. hated this one lads.

Did I tear up at the end of this book? Yes. Was it specifically because hanya was not just tugging at heartstrings with her language but pulling out all the stops and yanking on them with all her might as one would yank a rope while playing tug of war? Also yes. Like “And so I try to be kind to everything I see, and in everything I see, I see him” is one incredible hell of a line but it’s the writing itself rather than its connectedness to the story or the characters that has impact.

Final thoughts for now: I dunno. It was sad at the end, because listening to a person talk about someone they love after [redacted for spoilers] is always really sad; maybe she should have just published Harold’s last letter as a short story or something and left the rest to our imaginations. But for the preceding 700 pages, the story was gratuitous, ridiculous, and mean. The writing style was annoying as fuck, even though the writing itself was often (though not always) good. The characters were static cardboard cutouts, the events and emotional arcs were repetitive, the trauma was (I hate to say it) so extreme in both quantity and quality that i could barely take any of it seriously. I have so many more issues with this book but it’s 1:45 am right now so I’ll think of them later.

One fucking star. Fuck this book.