#probably not until arwen dies

[tathrin]

I was thinking about the weirdness of LaCE and the whole sex=soul-marriage thing again (as you do) and a thought struck me:

what if the way it works in cases of assault (or is believed to work by the elves; in this case it doesn't matter if it's actually what happens of just what they think) is that you don't end up with a full-on bond, no, but you do get bits of connection, like hooks stuck in your soul from the other person(s)?

And—if we run with the worst interpretation of the Celebrían situation—what if that's what motivates Elladan and Elrohir to be so determined to hunt down every single orc in Middle-earth?

If Celebrían left because she couldn't bear the feeling or thought or those orc-hooks in her soul (or the ptsd flashbacks and trauma that made it easy to assume the stories were true, and that's what was happening to cause her misery) and hoped that crossing the Sundering Sea would cut them off, or at least blunt them and let the scars heal...

Well, the twins know that you can't really sail back, of course they do. They know!

But Glorfindel did. And a whole host of elves came once, during the War of Wrath. So it's not that nobody has, ever. (They can look up and see their grandfather sailing in the sky every night, out of the Undying Lands. Maybe somebody could hitch a ride...?)

If they can make Middle-earth safe for her again...well, maybe she won't come home. But at least then she could, if a chance ever came to leave and cross the Sea again. She could.

And even if she doesn't, at least when they Sail*, they can tell her that they slew her nightmares, finally.

And maybe that will be enough.

[autumnhobbit]

sometimes i like to think about the fact that tolkien wrote the definitive ending for each of his characters. if you’ve only watched the movies you probably haven’t heard of or read the appendices to lotr, which contains some details that didn’t really have a spot in the books’ narrative official, like aragorn & arwen’s love story and courtship, and the eventual fates of all the main players.

a lot of stories are self-contained and focus on a certain part of the character’s lives. their childhood, their teenage years, their 20’s 30’s 40’s, until their happily-ever-after and all else is left to the imagination. for some stories, that’s what they need and it works and you can rest easy knowing the characters made it and they’re alright now and they will be alright when we say farewell to them and go our separate ways.

and tolkien made the interesting choice to tell when and how each of his characters died. and it’s not like some stories where an unnecessarily sad death comes unnecessarily into a story for shock value or extra drama. the whole of lotr is seeped on death and decay and especially on passing away. the elves are leaving never to return and one day the world will forget they ever existed. their beautiful homes and joyful songs and eons under the trees forgotten and nothing more than a ruin and a memory that no one who saw them will even be alive to remember. the men of numenor come back from near extinction but even as their descendants go on there are still only a few who will remember the ones who were really there. so it’s perhaps understandable that tolkien chose to write the happy ending. the real happy ending.

the happy ending that was exactly what each character needed and what you would want for each character. they each live full lives with the ones they love, all their greatest dreams and hopes realized. aragorn and arwen marry, eomer becomes king of rohan, the hobbits return home and sam builds the family he wanted with rosie. and yet gandalf leaves, and frodo goes with him, and though there is joy there is parting, and it breaks your heart. and it feels very adult because isn’t that the truth of adulthood? you meet people you love and you live and you see each other whenever you can, and time passes and you go your own ways and though you remember them and love then you live your life and then one day it’s over.

and so tolkien wrote the ending and it’s exactly what you think each character would do and how it would go. and i think about sometimes the wisdom and the life experience needed to write the whole life of each character, how and where they died and who was with them.

[the-wolfbats]

Thoughts on The Long Patrol

ok we're almost done this blog will be about Other Things again

Soon Gormad Tunn’s spirit would be at the gates of Dark Forest. Dark Forest is the equivalent of a peaceful afterlife. Hellgates is...not. Was this killer under the impression he was going to heaven lmao 

Seeing young uns pick their weapons at the mountain forge and learn to be Salamandastron hares is nice. 

💯 Forgot Cregga was Ruler of Salamandastron. 

Abbess Tansy my girl 🌟 Arven is the only known animal to go from Warrior to Abbott and that's only bc he was truly the last option (mentioned in Marlfox).  

There's a mention that if Salamandastron did not stand, the entire country would be overrun with vermin. Chapters later, Eyebright says they can only defend the West and shores in front of them. We never see a recurring other fighting force in the series with a permanent dwelling. Smaller bands and groups fill in the blanks but the mountain really doesn't cover a wide swath. 

We have another odd throwback to how the time periods differ or what their lengths may be. This book iirc is kind of the barrier between fairly directly chronological (Arwen acknowledged Auma, who was Badger Mother in Pearls of Lutra and the young kidnapped badger in Mattimeo) and great centuries may have passed (in Triss, Skipper is noted be the distant descendant of The Taggerung.)

all that to say how did Russa’s tomb never become a landmark? She also died too early I feel. Should have been more like halfway in the book.

Gaduss unlooped from his belt a greased strangling noose 4 fashioned from animal sinew. This vermin probably skinned some creature down to the muscles and ripped out the sinew to use as a noose. Wow. 

Squirrels don't really have a subculture in this series after like book 3. The Squirrelqueen stuff amounted to nothing, there's a minor mention in Outcast of a squirrel language, a handful of squirrel characters have surnames and familial legacies (mainly Dann, Tan, and Triss) but that's it. Even hedgehogs have Waterhogs. Mice subculture is truly just Redwall as a whole. There are more mouse brothers and sisters and rulers than any other species, although after the initial trilogy, Mariel and Joseph, and the Martin/Luke stories, mice aren't the main characters again until doomwyte.  For a series that's stereotyped as “fighting mice”, that's incredible. 

“O’er The Hills” could have a nice melody 

It's a lot fresher than I recall. The tropes work because the Patrol naturally wanders the country. The villain is smart. Redwall itself undergoes a change. The only tiresome part is Pasque marrying Tamm, it's always a Gentle Healer Maid who can sorta fight marrying the lead.

This also happens to Salixa in Eulalia...also on that ridge.

I'll elaborate more but I don't think most of this series is as repetitive as people like to say .

[sillylotrpolls]

If you are unaware of Aragorn's backstory, after his real dad died he and his mom went to live in Elrond's house when he (Aragorn, not Elrond) was only 2. At 20, he meets Arwen when she comes back from visiting her grandma Galadriel in Lothlorien (thus sparing her from marrying someone who she would otherwise have seen in diapers).

Elrond is all "So, you want to marry my daughter? Not really thrilled with her tying herself to a mortal, but I'm not Thingol and there aren't any silmarils anymore to demand anyway, so if you want her you better become double-King of Gondor and Arnor and I guess then you'll be good enough for her." And Aragorn is all "Yeah, that sounds fair," and he spends 30 years running around Middle-earth making friends with everyone he meets and generally becoming the person we (the audience) eventually meet as Strider.

Point is, the boy grew up around Elves and considered Elrond his dad (don't think about the not-actually-incest too hard), and Elves don't need to shave, so puberty was probably a real bitch on top of all of Aragorn's other problems.

[elithilanor]

How do you think Haldir would react to a human that was gifted immortality by the Valar?

(Assuming this is romantic but even if not:)

Gods, I think he’d just be so relieved and happy. If he’s with someone, he would always be with them with the intention that it would be until the end of one of their lifespans, unless they amicably split. So he would just be absolutely and deeply appreciative.

Like you don’t really hear of humans being gifted immortality but the Maiar have done weirder so it was kind of a hope and dream that he thought of distantly and bitterly but more one of those “oh what if I met and fell in love with x celebrity” things and not anything he thought could remotely exist.

But also it definitely couldn’t be like the person just never grew old or died but they were never informed of what was happening because then I think he’d worry too much and be anxious they could die at any moment. Humans are easily killed creatures compared to elves: prone to sickness, death, disease, less resistant to the elements, etc.

Someone or something would need to inform him that his partner would be alive and stay that way for him to believe it but also to assuage him of his fears.

(Perhaps Arwen could give them her immortality in exchange for her life with Aragorn. I’ve often thought that she would do this for another immortal/mortal couple and she could petition probably with great success whomever she needed to. She’s quite the monarch imo).

Thrilled. Relieved. Jubilant. Are probably some good key words.

I FORGOT I HAD A HALDIR TAG LIST @glassgulls @wareagleofthemountain HAHA I LOVE YALL I’m just sleepy

[whitedarkmoonflower]

Tagged by @synindoodles Thank you for tagging me! 💖

3 Ships: Aragorn & Arwen from LoR, Kili & Tauriel from Hobbit (I cried when Kili died looking in her eyes) (*and yes I'm a big Tolkien fan and have watched all movies and read all books so many times, I can't count anymore) and Lagatha & Ragnar from the Vikings (he was such an idiot to let her go and I like to think he regretted it his whole life)

First Ship: OMG, the first ship I remember is Reno & Cheyenne from Renegade (you probably haven't even heard about this show - I watched it in late 90's)

Last Song: "Never gonna not dance again" PINK

Last Movie: Barbie

Currently Reading: Dune Messiah by Frank Herbert (Part 2 of the movie is coming and I'm very impressed by Timothée Chalamet, he is quite close to becoming my second big love)

Currently Watching: Wheel of Time

Currently Consuming: the patience and nerves of all my friends, I hope they will endure until I get back to normal

Currently Craving: cuddling with Sihtric and letting him braid my hair (because I'm writing another fluffy story)

I'll tag @st-eve-barnes, @neonhairspray, @verenahx, @willowbrookesblog - no pressure, only if you feel like this is fun 😊

[whatmathgodwrought]

Lord of the Rings Horse Ranking Tier

S-Tier:

Fatty Lumpkin. Tom Bombadil’s horse. This speaks for itself, and I will hear no debate.

A-Tier:

Wise-Nose. One of Merry’s five ponies. Descriptive name and probably good at sniffing out food. I know what I’m getting with this horse.

Asfoloth: Because the line “Noro lim Asfaloth” always gives me the shivers. (“Ride fast" in Elvish.) Also kind of sounds like ass-fall-off, so my bad Elvish translation is “ride until your ass falls off.”

Nahar. Blinding white horse of a literal god (Oromë the Vala). Apparently this horse was the first one to notice that the elves had woken up and tipped off Oromë. Not a bad biography for a horse.

Rochallor. Heroic horse of Elven-king Fingolfin. Actually stayed while Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel, and stayed until Fingolfin died of his wounds. Attacked by wolves but ran swiftly home, where his heart gave out. You wish you were as metal at this horse.

Sharp-Ears. One of Merry’s five ponies. The safety warning about handling the ears is appreciated.

Shadowfax. Lord of the Mearas, it was said that no man could tame him, and he wouldn’t take a bridle or saddle, so minus some points for general utility. Luckily he was a bro to Gandalf, could understand speech and ran faster than all horses in Middle Earth. Gandalf took him to Valinor.

B-Tier:

Bill the Pony. Loses points for name originality (come on Samwise!), but gains some points back for being a memorable horse that somehow survives finding its way home from Moria despite being released and not getting eaten by the Watcher in the Water and crossing lands teeming with orcs.

Brego. A horse in the movies, but not in the books. Saves Aragorn by waking him up with horse kisses and carting him back to safety. Viggo Mortensen bought the horse after the movies.

C-Tier:

Roheryn. Aragorn’s personal horse, a gift from Arwen. That’s sweet, but it sounds too much like Rohirrim, and they might have to sue the horse for copyright infringement.

Bumpkin. One of Merry’s five ponies. You know, you’re just trying to copy Fatty Lumpkin, without the fat. We can see right through that. Bonus points for being one of Merry’s ponies.

Snowmane. Theoden King’s horse. Unfortunately got shot, fell, and crushed Theoden, so minus some points for involvement in regicide. Also sounds like a cat’s name TBH.

D-Tier:

Firefoot. Eomer’s horse. Sounds kind of metal, but also sounds like some kind of disease that horses in Middle Earth get.

Felaróf. First of the Mearas. Reportedly as intelligent as any human and could understand the speech of Men. Yet somehow this is what he decides to choose for a name, so how smart is he really?

Arod: A horse gifted to Legolas from the Riders of Rohan (so you know he did not look in its mouth, but maybe kind of wanted to…)

E-Tier

Hasufel. Aragorn’s horse gifted from the Riders of Rohan, but is only a placeholder horse until Aragorn gets his original horse back. Tough luck horsey.

F-Tier:

Stybba. Loaned to Merry from Theoden King, after the Battle of the Hornburg, this pony was better suited to rough terrain, and was too slow to keep up with the Rohirrim, so a bit of a raw deal for ole’ Stybba.

Windfola. Éowyn’s horse at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, which ran away when the Witch King of Angmar showed up. Come on buddy, I know you are kind of helping to fulfill prophesy and all, but be a bit more brave like Rochallor.

Obligatory shout out to:

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Horses

[sergeantnarwhalwrites]

It Blursday!! 🖤💜

WE’RE TAKING THE SQUADDIES TO EISENGARD!

You don’t have to fill all the roles, and they don’t all have to be from the same WIP, but who’s:

the Ring-bearer, entrusted with carrying the One Ring (bonus: funniest instance they use it to nope right out of reality)

the “Sam”, armed with a frying pan and a wizard of potatoes

Sean Bean, who dies in every movie — falls victim to their own hubris

totally crushing on Arwen and has a really cool sword

AND MY AXE

AND MY GLOCK BOW

Merry and Pippin the “package deal”, very concerned about missing second breakfast

the dude with a sick staff and a concerning amount of explosives, may or may not be an actual wizard

— @outpost51

Happy belated Blorbo Blursday! Thanks for the ask! Yesterday was a hell of a day and I will happily answer this now.

the Ring-bearer, entrusted with carrying the One Ring (bonus: funniest instance they use it to nope right out of reality)

I'm thinking Donnie (Robots & Gardens)

"Hey we got more Ikea furniture for the hang out. We need your help." -> Vanishes

the “Sam”, armed with a frying pan and a wizard of potatoes

Hollis (Robots & Gardens) kinda did this woman dirty her weapon is a couple screwdrivers but she's mostly tech support. And you can kill someone with anything so yeah.

Sean Bean, who dies in every movie — falls victim to their own hubris

Lol sorry Greeter (Space Don't Dictate Fate). Here have a friend Tharion (Space Don't Dictate Fate).

AND MY AXE

Green (Robots & Gardens) but with a knife instead.

AND MY GLOCK BOW

Elliot (Fucked at Five) XD He's sticking with the glock. Lol he'll duct tape it to a stick to make you feel better though.

Merry and Pippin the “package deal”, very concerned about missing second breakfast

Ian and Julie (Fucked at Five). Julie probably wasn't concerned about this until food was mentioned.

[fangirl-erdariel]

Quote time!

'Cake is eternal'

'Was it just the dreaming of my heart?'

'Dress me all in flowers white, so no mortal eye can see'

'Sing with me a tiny autumn song, with the melodies of the days gone by'

'Call my name from the heart'

'Forgotten phrases, tender and sweet'

'Clinging to affection, we somehow do learn to live'

'Running and reaching for the light'

'And I'll show you who I am, if you come where I go'

'In blinded night we are singing a glorious cry for freedom'

Okay let's see... :D This got unreasonably long so i'm putting it under a cut, sorry!

"Cake is eternal" - this is absolutely a crack fic. Maybe a bakery AU of some kind? I just can't decide what fandom or characters

"Was it just the dreaming of my heart?" - ok so for some reason what my brain went to was Beren and Lúthien fic, centering on Beren as he is dead, clinging onto the world, somewhere in Mandos, even though he's feeling the almost irresistible pull on his mortal soul to leave the world, because he can't leave yet because she asked him to wait and she promised to come and say goodbye right?? he can't leave until he sees her one last time, but at the same time he's dead and death does things to you so he's no longer really that certain of how much of what he remembers from life was true

"Dress me all in flowers white, so no mortal eye can see" - okay i know you've asked this before and fuck if i remember what I replied then. But right now I'm thinking immortal Merlin fic, with him through the years, through the changing tides of the mortal kingdoms and societies, slipping through it all almost unnoticed (and possibly going slightly mad with loneliness)

"Sing with me a tiny autumn song, with the melodies of the days gone by" - oohhh, this has a Tolkien vibe somehow. Maybe Aragorn and Arwen, long after LOTR, looking back on their lives?

"Call my name from the heart" - hmm... I have no idea why but I'm kinda thinking some kind of Garashir slowburn? idk anything else tho

"Forgotten phrases, tender and sweet" - again no idea where this came from, but maybe some kind of Glorestor fic? Like starting when Glorfindel's still newly come to Middle-Earth, and maybe he didn't have too much time to adjust to the whole "after thousands of years I'm alive again" thing, and he definitely hasn't had the time to process the fact that living comes with constant new feelings, new experiences, not just slowly sorting through and making peace with all the feelings and experiences from before you died, so he's still kind of reeling a bit and figuring things out again... and then, because Glorfindel was never one to do anything little by little or halfway, he goes and falls head over heels for Erestor and has to try and figure how love (and specifically communicating that love) works again

"Clinging to affection, we somehow learn to live" - so I don't really go for that very often, but somehow I'm thinking of Maedhros and Maglor with little Elrond and Elros? Maedhros and Maglor are all kind of worn down and burdened with like, everything, and Elrond and Elros are small children just torn from their home and family and friends, and it's all kind of a mess... but there's a bit of affection, a spark of something, some care for the twins, from Maglor, and maybe if they all hold onto it they can figure something out, maybe two kinslayers half-mad from their trauma and the Oath can live for a little rather than stumble forward after a terrible and seemingly unattainable goal, maybe two kids torn from everything they've ever known can learn to live, can grow up to make something of themselves, if they all just care for each other a bit and find a little affection for each other?

"Running and reaching for the light" - somehow (probably because i've already gotten myself into a tolkien mood and there's that whole metaphor about moths and candles in Athrabeth, lol), I'm thinking of an Andreth/Aegnor fic where Andreth doesn't submit so easily to the fact that Aegnor rejects her despite loving her, and maybe Aegnor isn't all that convinced about their love being impossible either, and Andreth goes after him, to stay at his side, reaching for his flame... and I don't know if that saves him, or if it ends in tragedy anyway (maybe she just dies at his side, when Dagor Bragollach comes. Or maybe she outlives him despite everything), but at least they have a while together, at least they get to love each other, whether or not it's enough to change their fates

"And I'll show you who I am, if you come where I'll go" - tbh no idea and my brain is out of idea making juice now, sorry ':D

"In blinded night we are singing a glorious cry for freedom" - I'm absolutely sure you've sent this to me before and I'm not sure what I replied then but right now what I'm vibing with is a Merlin AU where for whatever reason Merlin doesn't end up in Camelot (or at the very least doesn't end up as Gaius' apprentice, and doesn't end up really being involved with the court) and ends up sticking together with druids or just with other people who have magic instead, all keeping their heads low and fearing being exposed, but hoping for and working towards some kind of change nonetheless

Thanks for these, this was fun!

[aragornsrockcollection]

Someone point where it says making the choice of the Peredhel changes your body, senses or physiology, in any way.

So I encounter the opinion that there is an inherent physical difference between half-elves who choose the doom of elves, and those who choose the doom of men.

And I am here to say: Why do we think that?

The choice doesn’t exist because being half-elven in body is not sustainable or possible: for instance, was Arwen living 2777ish years as an elf and then changed her mind when she married Aragorn? Does her choice to be counted amongst men mean retroactively she was a man all those years, and dies at 2901 as the second oldest ever man? (Luthien was upwards of 3000 so if we’re counting it this way she is the oldest ever mortal man). That obviously doesn’t make sense, so at the very least despite living as long as if she were one of the Eldar, she was in fact still half-elven until she chooses a mortal life.

But there isn’t a moment described as her moment of choice- or rather, there is, it’s just not when she marries Aragorn. It’s when she follows Aragorn beyond the circles of the world by giving up her life voluntarily- choosing the fate of men.

Because the fate of men is not aging and dying- it’s not being tethered to the world, and instead going beyond its circles when you die.

The Valar didn’t make Elrond and Elros choose their fates because they’re bastards, and you’re not allowed to be both things. They did it because you can’t go half beyond the circles of the world.

The peredhel aren’t choosing what they are- they are what they are, which is peredhel- they are choosing WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM WHEN THEY DIE.

But that does not strip them of any part of their identities. For instance, all of them (except Earendil for the obvious reason) are part Maia. They don’t magically lose that part of their heritage when they choose the path of Elves or the path of Men, so why would they lose the elf or man part?

The choice doesn’t define what these people are, it defines where they go.

Elrond Peredhel is not any less of a peredhel in the fourth age than he is in the first.

Elros could have lived as long, or longer than Arwen. He had that capacity. By chosing the path of men he basically just filled out a do not resuscitate form and handed it to Mandos. And he lived exactly as long as he wanted, just like Arwen, which was basically long enough to see his kingdom established and his children happy in the paths they’d chosen, and then he chose to die and pass on his work to his children (really his grandchildren, his son abdicated almost immediately).

“So you don’t think peredhel who choose the path of men age?”

So here’s the thing. Elves age. It takes a very long time, because they are made to endure in the world, and they hang out with other mostly unaging elves, but they age. But the aging they do is based on the age of their fea. Their bodies are more directly tied to their fea than those of men.

(I’m not sourcing any of this, because I have decided to be lazy, and my memory is not perfect so if you have a conflicting source on this, go for it, wreck me.)

So stress and many years, as well as parenthood, age elves. I think there’s some number of mental years elves have to age before they can grow beards and it’s something like 10,000? (Meaning Mahtan gained the ability in a maximum of 1 year of having Feanor as an apprentice, HAHA BURN oh wait he did).

So a half-elf, who is probably naturally more easily able to age anyways, given that they have men as part of their heritage, goes and lives amongst men. Elros sails to Numenor. Arwen marries Aragorn and lives as the queen of Gondor while elves are growing scarce in middle earth. And so, they live their lives at the pace of men, and their bodies reflect that mental age. I still doubt they age beyond, like, a good looking 65, at most. I do not think, if a half-elf wanted to just keep on chugging, that they would age to death.

But that is part of it being a choice. They already decided they were not going to live forever, so they pick their moment and accept the gift of men. Arwen chooses to live one year longer than Aragorn, and Elros (hilariously) just kind of picks a round number.

I think it’s also worth noting with Elros that he was probably trying to live approximately as long as a regular lifespan of a king of Numenor, and then set aside that kingship as well as his life as part of setting a precedent for future rulers of Numenor- in fact kings of Numenor living until they age to death and not abdicating even in that old age is depicted as a huge warning sign of the Kings Men starting to covet power and life beyond that which they were given. (Not going to go into that too much, but it being noted as a tradition that is broken proves there was a precedent set by Elros) He overshoots the natural lifespan of men, but actually only by a little, many of his descendants live into their 400s. He ruled on Numenor for around 400 years, and the lifespan of the men who followed him there was changed in that time, growing longer, and he knew his descendants would live longer still for being part elf and Maia, so a 400 year rule wasn’t too crazy as an over estimate.

Tl.dr: choosing to be counted as a man, or counted as an elf, does not make a half-elf a man or elf. They still are what they are. A half-elf. Physical changes, (if any occur, I honestly shoehorned a way for them to age into this theory because I like the idea that they age. Nothing out there says they age at all.) can be attributed to other factors.

[doberbutts]

There’s incest in the Tolkien books?! O_o

Lmao I mean

I was referring to the Children of Hurin which is a tragedy and they end up dying as a result of the incest-hyjinks but, yes, there's brother/sister incest until they figure out they're related and go HOLY SHIT NEVERMIND. But the audience Knows even when the characters don't. They married and she was pregnant when she killed herself after everything was revealed, and he did too a little later.

His mom, some years later, died on his grave. His mom was mentioned in the "Tolkien totally writes strong women" post and yeah sure Morwen is beautiful and fierce and also it's called "the Children of Hurin" meaning her HUSBAND gets the credit for their kids AND the story is, shockingly, not really about her but mostly about her son and her husband. Also despite being called the ChildREN of Hurin, the story is largely about Turin and not about his sister, who is initially voiceless and innocent (and also completely naked when they first met), described to be very beautiful but like a child mentally, due to a dragon's curse on her. So sure there's another woman in this story but...

But also Arwen and Aragorn are distant cousins, as Aragorn comes from Elros' line and Elros is Elrond's twin brother, so... we're talking thousands of years in between so quite a few generations BUT ALSO they sure are related. Good old monarchy incest at it's finest. Btw the problem of them getting together WAS NOT that they're related at all and was entirely because Arwen would have to give up her immortality to be with him and thus she'd be seperated from her people forever and Elrond was sad because that was the fate his brother chose as well.

Everybody saying "it's too Game of Thrones and it wasn't this political or reliant on sex and romance" should probably take their own advice and go re-read the Silmarillion, or buy the standalone book of this tale, one of the two.

[shantismurf]

I've often wondered why Tolkien felt he needed to kill off all three Durins and no one else. I'm sure there are all kinds of scholarly papers out there on it. I even thought it might have been tragically poetic for Fili to be left to rule after losing his family just as Thorin had been, but nope.

They all lived in the first drafts. What changed so drastically in moving the battle from Dimrill Dale to Erebor that Tolkien felt he had to kill off this whole family and leave the one female Dwarf he ever named all alone in the world?? I really wonder if he ever thought about how horribly he treated Dis. I'm thinking probably not.

So I did some (very minimal) research, and I'm pretty sure the answer all comes down to Dain.

I just got a shiny new copy of The History of the Hobbit for my birthday, so of course I have to look this up. In the chapter with the aftermath of the battle all that's mentioned is that

In the original story neither Fili nor Kili died fighting alongside their uncle but survived to the end of the tale. The idea that the two most likeable of all Bilbo's companions should also die in battle ... first appears in the continuation of the typescript ... 'Of the twelve companions of Thorin ten remained. Fili and Kili had fallen defending him with shield and body, for he was their mother's eldest brother...'

But in the version where Fili and Kili live, Dain still becomes king...wtf? In a later section titled *Dain son of Nain* I found:

That Thorin was to die was a late development, not present at all in the Second Phase: there is no hint of it in any of the Plot Notes, and clear indication to the contrary as late as Bilbo's discussion with Thorin after the battle ... Even when Tolkien concluded that Bilbo would be unable to resolve the crisis and lift the siege without a battle ... the idea of bringing a dwarven army to the scene was one of the last plot-points to emerge ...

Dain himself nowhere appears until the Third Phase. Like Bard (or, later, Arwen in The Lord of the Rings), Dain is a character Tolkien introduces abruptly to fill a specific plot-function, in this case to bring a dwarven army to the fight at the Mountain, but with his usual keen eye to potentialities, once the character is present Tolkien makes good use of him. Nothing in fact anticipates Thorin's death scene in the original manuscript until Gandalf actually ushers Bilbo into the dying dwarvenking's tent, but once Tolkien had made the surprising decision to drive home the cost of victory with the tragic but heroic death of the second most important character in the book, he needed someone else to fill Thorin's role as the new King under the Mountain, dealing out treasure and restoring the lost realm so that the prophecies could come true.

Dain is a Mary Sue. No wonder we hate him so much. Don't get me wrong, I love a good Dain as a solid supporter of Thorin and the proper Line of Durin, but man he is easy to make into a slimy usurper for a good reason.

In a sense, Dain is to Thorin as Faramir is to Boromir in The Lord of the Rings: the close kinsman who avoids the fall from grace of his elder ... It is easy, in retrospect, to forget Thorin's or Boromir's virtues even after their heroic deaths ... but an unprejudiced reading ... shows Thorin as a capable leader, fair in his judgements, determined to leave none behind, and courageous ... Dain is all this and more: Thorin as he is meant to be, who either because of the example of Thorin's fall ... or more likely because of an unshakeable bedrock of good sense ... is able to resist the dragon-sickness. Dain deals out the treasure fairly, keeps his bargains, and establishes good relations with his neighbors - all the things Thorin should have done and that we, like Bilbo, expected him to do based on our experience of him prior to his glimpsing the dragon-gold.

That Thorin's heir proves to be a new character, Dain ... might have surprised some readers among whom Tolkien circulated the original version of the story ... But the two young dwarves' descent is through the female line, being the sons of Thorin's sister, whereas the patriarchal dwarves obviously trace the kingship through the male line; it is indeed possible that the deaths of Fili and Kili were added to the story during the typescript stage precisely to avoid such confusion. ... in the 'heroic' cultures that preceded feudalism a closely-related capable adult male (brother, uncle, nephew) often succeeded instead of a son. As Thorin's first cousin, the battle-hardened Dain, who proved himself a loyal kinsman by coming at once to Thorin's aid and who had already accomplished heroic deeds in killing Bolg's father in the goblin war, is obviously an eminently suitable candidate to re-establish the Kingdom under the Mountain.

There's a lot more Dain fawning in that section that I don't even want to bother with. He also says something rather nasty about the fact that Dain had an army but Thorin could only raise a group of 12 🤮

"Patriarchal Dwarves obviously" 🖕...Yes, it's probably right, but still, 🖕

Oh and I think this is kind of bullshit, imo:

At first Thorin's sudden death – shocking within the traditions of classic British children's fantasy – would seem to reverse Tolkien's theory of eucatastrophe, the sudden unexpected happy ending to the tale, but in fact the eagles' arrival that turns the tide serves as the eucatastrophe that makes The Hobbit a successful fairy-story within Tolkien's own conception of the genre. Thorin's death, and the later addition of those of Fili and Kili, serve rather to ground the eucatastrophe and prevent the book from being 'escapist' in a negative sense: in Tolkien's terms they confirm 'the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; [eucatastrophe] denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat'.

TL;DR - Did Tolkien really need to abruptly kill off a primary character just to give the story the proper gravitas, then invent the perfect character simply to fit the hole he made, then kill off a couple more to avoid any confusion about the new character's legitimacy!? 🙄 I guess so, because that appears to be what he did? 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yeah sorry this turned into another Ted Talk. Thanks for sticking it out to the end lol 🥰

Just reread The Hobbit 😩 and I stand by my opinion:

📣 Bilbo would have stayed in Erebor if Thorin didn’t die 📣

[sapphire-deity]

It's time to talk about Glorfindel. Our boy who got snatched from the film's to make space for Arwen. I know, it made sense, but Glorfindel tho. The opportunity for angst with him? This man dies, is probably almost grateful that he's finally going to be able to rest without warfare, maybe see his friends again in Valinor, and then instead gets yeeted back to Arda to support and work for a king he doesn't know and eventually that same king's best friend who ended up in charge because everyone else who could do it was dead. Shoved back into the war he already sacrificed himself for once, and having to stick it out in Arda until the very end, watching his people fade from their former glory. Maybe even feeling himself fade as time goes on. Please for the love of god can we get this man some therapy.

[weakforarwen]

I rewatched The Dark Tower for the Arwen/Gwen crumbs, and I noticed that, when Elyan finds Gwen in the room with the sword, she says Morgana spelled it to “protect” her. At this point, Gwen was already under Morgana’s control in some way, yet, she told her brother to save himself and cried for him when there was no one around to put on an act for. It’s safe to assume Gwen was genuinely aware of Elyan’s passing. So when was she lost for good? After the shock of his death passed? Was Gwen feeling so much pain she wanted to disappear? In the end, perhaps Gwen “chose” to let go of her last remaining thread of control.

It reminds me of TVD, when often a vampire chooses to “turn off” their “humanity switch” after they lose someone, and then need a huge emotional trigger to turn it back on. For example, when Elena’s brother died, she turned her emotions off, and only her best friend Matt nearly dying turned them back on. In Gwen’s case, her trigger was Arthur. 

Perhaps a small part of Gwen no longer wanted to live after losing her remaining (biological) family, especially since Elyan died rescuing her. At her lowest point, she felt completely alone and “turned” to Morgana who had conditioned Gwen to think of her as her savior. Real Gwen was too weak to fight Morgana, and, deep down, just wanted an escape, so her resolve finally broke and Morgana was in. 

Not even almost killing Arthur was enough to snap Gwen out of it though, maybe because he didn’t actually die. I said this before, but, imo (and I realize I’m trying to see logic where it may not exist), it was Gwen’s identity being found by Arthur that gave real Gwen an opening. Evil Gwen was afraid of Arthur. She was afraid of the power he had over her. When he started reminding her of their love for each other, Morgana’s hold on Gwen threatened to slip and real Gwen exploited that vulnerability. I kind of picture the real Gwen as trapped inside her own body, observing herself as an outsider. 

Gwen tried to fight Morgana but wasn’t strong enough after her brother died (Morgana’s nightly visits probably had something to do with that too), until Arthur reminded her of the promise she made. She promised to marry Arthur with all her heart - because marriage is indeed a promise to love, cherish, respect, etc. your partner in sickness and in health, blah blah, ‘till death do us part. Gwen still had someone to live for, someone who loved her, and who she promised to love for the rest of her life - her remaining family - so she couldn’t let Morgana take him away from her. Arthur gave Gwen the strength to fight back. He believed in her ability do escape Morgana because he believed in the strength of her love for him (a bit similar to when Arthur’s love for Gwen broke his enchantment in season 2). The fact that Morgana hadn’t been in touch with Gwen for a day, and that evil Gwen had been poisoned, probably helped as well. 

Unrelated, but Arthur only ever seems to get angry over Gwen. It was definitely hot when he was like “We walked around in a circle. We lost an entire day” , and slammed his sword on the ground in the Impenetrable Forest. Arthur looks very hot in season 5. I think it’s the hair. And Merlin beefed up a lot. Watching him in the early seasons, he looks so skinny. 

Anyway, there really is no one more important to Arthur than Gwen, WBK. 

[dianaladrislovebot]

sorting gone characters into hogwarts houses <3

just a quick disclaimer, this is in fact just my opinion and not based on any sort of fact other than my own perception of the characters, and if you disagree you are absolutely entitled to. if you have any different opinions feel free to comment them, i’d love to hear other peoples thoughts !

also, this goes without saying but i do not support the terf, and if you do, or are any other form of trash, this account is not a safe space for you. you will be hate crimed. /hj

sam temple : hufflepuff

at first i thought gryffindor, but i actually changed my mind while writing this. he seems to be forced into the leadership role, but before the fayz he seemed to be quite reserved. he kept to himself and his one good friend (well…) so i see a lot of loyalty and kindness in him, leading me to hufflepuff. while he still fits in gryffindor somewhat, i think hufflepuff is a better fit for him.

caine soren : slytherin

yes there’s obviously the whole “him being a villain” thing that definitely points towards him being a slytherin, but he actually fits the house traits. he’s clearly very driven and and knows what he wants, and is determined to get it. it’s stereotypical, but he’s a textbook slytherin.

astrid ellison : ravenclaw

yes yes i know oH sHe’S a NeRd but that’s not the only reason. it’s more like she doesn’t really fit anywhere else. of course she has the textbook ravenclaw traits, but she doesn’t seem to have any traits of the other houses. the only other house i could see her in is probably slytherin, and even that’s a long shot.

diana ladris : ravenclaw

this might surprise some of you. i’ve seen a lot of people say she’s a slytherin, but i can’t find myself agreeing. diana is the most sarcastic and witty person in the books and wit is a ravenclaw trait. her signature move is her one liners and insulting people into submission, and she never seems to want to volunteer for anything really, she’s not particularly cunning in any regard other than seduction and she’s certainly not kind. ravenclaw seems a perfect fit.

quinn gaither : gryffindor

this was a tough one. i searched every tiny scrap of information on this boy and all i could come up with is “he’s a coward, now he’s a fisherman” so i’m taking him taking initiative to not only become a fisherman but also standing up to penny to sort him in gryffindor. don’t question it.

drake merwin : gryffindor

honestly i was torn between gryffindor and slytherin for him. he’s kind of like a peter pettigrew character to me, just less, him. drake has never really shown that he had a plan at any point other than serve caine, and then the gaiaphage and seemed to just be violent for violence’s sake. he also doesn’t seem to have much of a “backbone” though, considering he’s answered to at least someone at every point in the books until he dies. he does, however, seem to willing to do the dirty work other don’t wanna do, which indicates some form of courage or bravery. and he definitely has fucking nerve.

edilio escobar : gryffindor

oh my gosh my boy. he stood up at the beginning and did everything for everyone at every point and never complained. he’s clearly brave, not only becoming a soldier but training other soldiers, not to mention his courage. he’s the perfect gryffindor and i love him.

brianna berenson : gryffindor

do i even really need to explain this one. shes constantly hyper, over confident and rushes into dangerous situations head first. she’s basically fred and george weasley mixed with james potter. it’s self explanatory.

dekka talent : hufflepuff

this is actually one of my favourites. when she decides to love something she loves so hard, with brianna being a prime example. she puts her foot first to help sam even when she clearly doesn’t want to. she may seem a bit harsh sometimes, but that doesn’t take away from her genuine kindness that shows through every now and again.

lana arwen-lazar : slytherin

while she obviously fits the slytherin aesthetic, she’s also very prideful and self preserving. she also clearly shows resourcefulness, which we see after her car crash. you might argue that with her powers she has to be resourceful but i digress. she also just tends to be mean which is a very slytherin thing to do.

sanjit brattle-chance : hufflepuff

oh sweet baby boy. we don’t know much about him but he clearly cares for his siblings so much as he took them everywhere with him and he does so much for lana even if she doesn’t see the benefit of it. he helps at the hospital with virtue, which points to him being some form of kind and hard working, otherwise he wouldn’t have done anything to help while he was with lana other than care for his siblings.

albert hillsborough : slytherin

my man is so money hungry in a world where money doesn’t exist that he reinvents capitalism. only a slytherin could do that, let’s be real.

charles ‘orc’ merriman: hufflepuff

this one may be slightly shocking, and i honestly can’t explain it all that well, i just feel it in my bones. y’all are gonna have to trust me.

howard bassem : hufflepuff

he practically follows orc around like a lost puppy the entire series. that’s loyalty. and i’d like to think it would be difficult dealing with orc, which shows me patience. also, he’s a drug dealer, and we all know that hufflepuff’s are the stoners of hogwarts.

taylor : slytherin

okay another one i can’t explain very well due to the sheer lack of scenes of her actually doing anything but she spreads gossip and rumours purely for her own amusement. that just seems very slytherin to me. i’d totally do that if i was given the opportunity.

jack : ravenclaw

obviously the most telling sign of his ravenclaw-iness is he’s a fucking nerd. but besides that, jack does seem to be quite a coward, so gryffindor is off the table. he switches sides every ten minutes, so loyalty clearly means nothing to him, meaning hufflepuff is out. he has the charisma of a plank of wood and couldn’t talk his way out of a paper bag so slytherins clearly not it either. it’s the same case as astrid; he simply fits ravenclaw too well, and couldn’t simply fit anywhere else.

well i hope you enjoyed me mindlessly rambling about two of my hyper fixations bc it seems no one else shares my interests between the fandoms lol so this may not even appeal to anyone as anything other than a basic character study. take this post as you will. i hope everyone has a good day <3

[anythingforstories]

After two days of powering through, I've finished the book! I mostly left reactions as I read this time, though not a ton since that would involve tearing myself away.

In order:

-Okay, so he's not dead; all is good.

-Also, Sam wears the ring that has the power to corrupt great men, and on the very brink of Mordor at that! And what does he do? A bit of orc-dodging and eavesdropping, that's all. Classic Sam.

-Okay, but can we talk about the narrative contrast between Théoden and Denethor? Both had the very voices of Mordor whispering in their ears (directly or otherwise), and both lost a son to the war. One, a rightful king who yielded to another's wisdom and took his council. The other, a mere steward who refused to yield to wisdom. One rode before his men to war, while the other waited behind while his men fought. Both fell on the same day, but one fell in noble battle and was laid in great estate, mourned by his people. The other needlessly died by his own hand and was buried under the building he brought down on himself. One left a legacy, and the other left a tragedy. Both were accompanied by a hobbit who swore loyalty. (Which is probably the only reason I was smart enough to pick up on the thematic comparisons going on here.)

-YAY ÉOWYN AND MERRY!!! I'd been looking forward to this scene the whole time. (A tiny part of me was like, "That's it? He's going to put her out of commission just like that?" afterward because I knew about this scene but not the fact that it hurt her so badly, but I have to keep in mind that this was a Nazgûl. And not just any but their king! An ancient one! This is a Really Big Deal and just because it doesn't have more page time [which narratively makes sense], doesn't mean it wasn't a Really Big Deal. Also, though I did know of the scene in advance, I enjoyed reading the entire fight sequence quite a bit more than I expected.)

-PIPPIN IS DEAD AGAIN?? (It'd better not be for real this time ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ)

-Poor Sam. He's had to walk on SO many stairs lately.

-I'm sure two hobbits in orc clothes will be very convincing and not suspicious at all.

-*reads more* Well, apparently it wAS CONVINCING AND NOT SUSPCIOUS AT ALL

-Left no reactions to the climax initially because I was far too riveted, but it was excellent, Sam is excellent, Gollum really is a persistent chap and he came in handy (and... um... biting-handy...), the pacing was so good, and yay for the eagles!

-YAYYYYYY PIPPIN ISN'T DEAD!!! :D (Tolkien really enjoys making people think hobbits are dead, doesn't he?)

-Ah HA! I had begun to suspect Aragorn and Arwen when she sent him the banner. It was only then that I remembered that a passing comment had been made about Aragorn not being at the feast even though Arwen was there. (In my defense, I read that months ago and I was also trying to keep track of Aragorn's many names, which he then proceeded to collect many more of.)

-I quite approve of Éowyn and Faramir. I think I have to go back and read each of the scenes with Éowyn again to pick up on more of the subtilties of her character arc. I didn't pick up on a lot of her motivations until Faramir laid it out.

-(Also, can we talk about what a good dude Faramir is? I knew very little about him other than his name and something about a romance with someone [couldn't remember who but did suspect Éowyn based on a few spoilers I saw lately] but he really is such a fantastic guy. 10/10.)

-Ahhhhh yay Legolas and Gimli are going on adventures!

-BILL THE PONY! :D HE'S OKAY! I've been worried about the little guy.

-…Was not expecting Saruman to be back, not gonna lie. I figured the appendix would tell of what happened to him. Between Gollum and Saruman, this story does a good job of showing evil people reaching their deserved end, but not due to judgment or punishment—they very clearly brought it all on themselves.

-The ache of returning—Frodo's back home, but home doesn't quite fit him anymore, and some wounds are too deep. But on the flip side, I'm glad to see how the other hobbits fared. Merry and Pippin grew so much (and not just in stature). I'm proud of the lil guys (and very happy that Pippin is not dead).

-The ending. All I could do was cry and write poetry (not very good poetry, mind you) and feel that perhaps Gandalf's last line was not for the hobbits alone.

...

I've never spent this long on a work of fiction before, and it was definitely daunting to get through! But I'm glad to have read it, and I feel that I understand a lot of the origins of modern fantasy much better (and many books seem quite a bit less original XD). Despite so many books springing from this, it's a story unlike any other I've read.

Glad to say that after many years of observing the fandom from afar, I can finally call myself a member of the Lord of the Rings fandom!

Currently reading Lord of the Rings for the first time. Never seen the movies (I want to read the book first) and the majority of my LOTR knowledge comes through memes and spoilers on Tumblr analysis posts. I've made it through Fellowship of the Ring and am now in The Two Towers, specifically the chapter where Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard.

Thoughts and predictions at this point (contains spoilers, but it's been out since 1954, so deal with it):

-So I guess "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard" was Merry and Pippin? In which case, they did not end up taking the hobbits to Isengard. Pity.

-(No but really, I had thought that referred to Frodo and Sam because I think they're slaves at some point? IDK. Maybe they're slaves in Mordor. I shall have to wait and see.)

-I am happy that Merry and Pippin have had more page time and got to have a clever escape. I was beginning to wonder why they were there in the story. I do like them, though.

-I wonder if Treebeard is important?

-During the entire second half of Fellowship of the Ring, I was thinking, "Surely Legolas has a bigger role, based upon the number of fangirls?" I now see that he does have more page time, though still at this point, I feel his fangirls may have overinflated his role within the story. Perhaps he shall do more later, though. Still a cool dude, in any case, sleeping while walking and all that.

-Gandalf's defeat was less dramatic than I'd always imagined. Pretty sure he's not gone forever, based mostly upon memes and fanart. And also the fact that he seems to be rather too important to be gone this soon.

-I'd honestly anticipated a long redemption arc for Boromir. Based upon all the analysis I've seen about him, I had vaguely known he sacrificed himself for the hobbits, but didn't expect it to be this soon. Not sure how I feel about this. (I did cry, and then I cried again when Aragorn didn't reveal what he'd been up to to Legolas and Gimli. I didn't actually expect to cry while reading LOTR. But the tragedy hit hard.)

-I know there's gonna be a romance between an elf-lady and a man, but I'm not sure who with whom. I don't think there's been a single hint of that yet. Maybe I'm wrong.

-Pretty sure they're going to see the ocean?

-"I am no man!" (Or something along those lines. I hope that wasn't movie-original; I think I've seen pictures of that text in the books? But it sounds very epic.)

-Gollum is a persistent chap. I rather like him. I do, unfortunately, know his fate. My sisters watched the movies when they were little and that's one of the only things they can remember.

-It's definitely picked up compared to the first book! Unlike many people, though, I did read through all those pages of pure worldbuilding lore at the beginning. It was boring and yet delightful.

-I need a map. I'm borrowing a friend's version where there's all the books in one cover with lots of illustrations and such. There was a map of the Shire but not of everything. I could easily look it up online, but I'm stubborn and want to see if the book will have one at some point.

-Can't wait for Aragorn to come back as king. I assume this shall happen in Return of the King. It would make sense. He seems a good fit for the job.

-I would DEVOUR an anime of this series. Specifically, a book-accurate one.

-Sam is excellent.

-Lots of fantasy seems so much less original after reading LOTR :P